CR 2006/25
International Court Cour internationale
of Justice de Justice
THHEAGUE LAAYE
YEAR 2006
Public sitting
held on Thursday 23 March 2006, at 3 p.m., at the Peace Palace,
President Higgins presiding,
in the case concerning the Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment
of the Crime of Genocide (Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro)
________________
VERBATIM RECORD
________________
ANNÉE 2006
Audience publique
tenue le jeudi 23 mars 2006, à 15 heures, au Palais de la Paix,
sous la présidence de Mme Higgins, président,
en l’affaire relative à l’Application de la convention pour la prévention et la répression du
crime de génocide (Bosnie-Herzégovine c. Serbie-et-Monténégro)
____________________
COMPTE RENDU
____________________ - 2 -
Present: Presieigtgins
Vice-Prsi-Kntasawneh
Ranjevaudges
Shi
Koroma
Parra-Aranguren
Owada
Simma
Tomka
Abraham
Keith
Sepúlveda
Bennouna
Judges ad hoc Mahiou
Kre ća
Couevrisrar
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯ - 3 -
Présents : Mme Higgins,président
Al-K.vsce-prh,ident
RaMjev.
Shi
Koroma
Parra-Aranguren
Owada
Simma
Tomka
Abraham
Keith
Sepúlveda
Bjnnosuna,
MaMhou.,
Kre ća, juges ad hoc
Cgoefferr,
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯ - 4 -
The Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina is represented by:
Mr. Sakib Softić,
as Agent;
Mr. Phon van den Biesen, Attorney at Law, Amsterdam,
as Deputy Agent;
Mr.Alain Pellet, Professor at the University of ParisX-Nanterre, Member and former Chairman of
the International Law Commission of the United Nations,
Mr. Thomas M. Franck, Professor of Law Emeritus, New York University School of Law,
Ms Brigitte Stern, Professor at the University of Paris I,
Mr. Luigi Condorelli, Professor at the Facultyof Law of the University of Florence,
Ms Magda Karagiannakis, B.Ec, LL.B, LL.M.,Barrister at Law, Melbourne, Australia,
Ms Joanna Korner, Q.C.,Barrister at Law, London,
Ms Laura Dauban, LL.B (Hons),
as Counsel and Advocates;
Mr. Morten Torkildsen, BSc, MSc, Tork ildsen Granskin og Rådgivning, Norway,
as Expert Counsel and Advocate;
H.E. Mr. Fuad Šabeta, Ambassadorof Bosnia and Herzegovina to the Kingdom of the Netherlands,
Mr. Wim Muller, LL.M, M.A.,
Mr. Mauro Barelli, LL.M (University of Bristol),
Mr. Ermin Sarajlija, LL.M,
Mr. Amir Bajrić, LL.M,
Ms Amra Mehmedić, LL.M,
Mr. Antoine Ollivier, Temporary Lecturer and Research Assistant, University of Paris X-Nanterre, - 5 -
Le Gouvernement de la Bosnie-Herzégovine est représenté par :
M. Sakib Softić,
coagment;
M. Phon van den Biesen, avocat, Amsterdam,
comme agent adjoint;
M. Alain Pellet, professeur à l’Université de ParisX-Nanterre, membre et ancien président de la
Commission du droit international des Nations Unies,
M. Thomas M. Franck, professeur émérite à lafaculté de droit de l’Université de New York,
Mme Brigitte Stern, professeur à l’Université de Paris I,
M. Luigi Condorelli, professeur à la fact de droit de l’Université de Florence,
Mme Magda Karagiannakis, B.Ec., LL.B., LL.M.,Barrister at Law, Melbourne (Australie),
Mme Joanna Korner, Q.C.,Barrister at Law, Londres,
Mme Laura Dauban, LL.B. (Hons),
comme conseils et avocats;
M. Morten Torkildsen, BSc., MSc., Tork ildsen Granskin og Rådgivning, Norvège,
comme conseil-expert et avocat;
S. Exc. M. Fuad Šabeta, ambassadeur de Bosn ie-Herzégovine auprès duRoyaume des Pays-Bas,
M. Wim Muller, LL.M., M.A.,
M. Mauro Barelli, LL.M. (Université de Bristol),
M. Ermin Sarajlija, LL.M.,
M. Amir Bajrić, LL.M.,
Mme Amra Mehmedić, LL.M.,
M. Antoine Ollivier, attaché temporaire d’ense ignement et de recher che à l’Université de
Paris X-Nanterre, - 6 -
Ms Isabelle Moulier, Research Student in International Law, University of Paris I,
Mr. Paolo Palchetti, Associate Professor at the University of Macerata (Italy),
as Counsel.
The Government of Serbia and Montenegro is represented by:
Mr. Radoslav Stojanović, S.J.D., Head of the Law Council of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of
Serbia and Montenegro, Professor at the Belgrade University School of Law,
as Agent;
Mr. Saša Obradović, First Counsellor of the Embassy of Serbia and Montenegro in the Kingdom of
the Netherlands,
Mr. Vladimir Cvetković, Second Secretary of the Embassy of Serbia and Montenegro in the
Kingdom of the Netherlands,
as Co-Agents;
Mr.Tibor Varady, S.J.D. (Harvard), Professor of Law at the Central European University,
Budapest and Emory University, Atlanta,
Mr. Ian Brownlie, C.B.E., Q.C., F.B.A., Member of the International Law Commission, member of
the English Bar, Distinguished Fellow of the All Souls College, Oxford,
Mr. Xavier de Roux, Master in law, avocat à la cour, Paris,
Ms Nataša Fauveau-Ivanović, avocat à la cour, Paris and member of the Council of the
International Criminal Bar,
Mr. Andreas Zimmermann, LL.M. (Harvard), Professor of Law at the University of Kiel, Director
of the Walther-Schücking Institute,
Mr. Vladimir Djerić, LL.M. (Michigan), Attorney at Law, Mikijelj, Jankovi ć & Bogdanovi ć,
Belgrade, and President of the International Law Association of Serbia and Montenegro,
Mr. Igor Olujić, Attorney at Law, Belgrade,
as Counsel and Advocates;
Ms Sanja Djajić, S.J.D., Associate Professor at the Novi Sad University School of Law,
Ms Ivana Mroz, LL.M. (Indianapolis),
Mr. Svetislav Rabrenović, Expert-associate at the Office of th e Prosecutor for War Crimes of the
Republic of Serbia, - 7 -
Mme Isabelle Moulier, doctorante en droit international à l’Université de Paris I,
M. Paolo Palchetti, professeur associé à l’Université de Macerata (Italie),
cocomnseils.
Le Gouvernement de la Serbie-et-Monténégro est représenté par :
M. Radoslav Stojanović, S.J.D., chef du conseil juridique du ministère des affaires étrangères de la
Serbie-et-Monténégro, professeur à la faculté de droit de l’Université de Belgrade,
coagment;
M. Saša Obradovi ć, premier conseiller à l’ambassade de Serbie-et-Monténégro au Royaume des
Pays-Bas,
M. Vladimir Cvetković, deuxième secrétaire à l’ambassade de Serbie-et-Monténégro au Royaume
des Pays-Bas,
comme coagents;
M. Tibor Varady, S.J.D. (Harvard), professeur de droit à l’Université d’Europe centrale de
Budapest et à l’Université Emory d’Atlanta,
M. Ian Brownlie, C.B.E., Q.C., F.B.A., membre de la Commission du droit international, membre
du barreau d’Angleterre, Distinguished Fellow au All Souls College, Oxford,
M. Xavier de Roux, maîtrise de droit, avocat à la cour, Paris,
Mme Nataša Fauveau-Ivanovi ć, avocat à la cour, Paris, et membre du conseil du barreau pénal
international,
M. Andreas Zimmermann, LL.M. (Harvard), professeur de droit à l’Université de Kiel, directeur de
l’Institut Walther-Schücking,
M. Vladimir Djeri ć, LL.M. (Michigan), avocat, cabinet Mikijelj, Jankovi ć & Bogdanovi ć,
Belgrade, et président de l’association de droit international de la Serbie-et-Monténégro,
M. Igor Olujić, avocat, Belgrade,
comme conseils et avocats;
Mme Sanja Djajić, S.J.D, professeur associé à la faculté de droit de l’Université de Novi Sad,
Mme Ivana Mroz, LL.M. (Indianapolis),
M. Svetislav Rabrenovi ć, expert-associé au bureau du procureur pour les crimes de guerre de la
République de Serbie, - 8 -
Mr. Aleksandar Djurdjić, LL.M., First Secretary at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Serbia and
Montenegro,
Mr. Miloš Jastrebić, Second Secretary at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Serbia and Montenegro,
Mr. Christian J. Tams, LL.M. PhD. (Cambridge), Walther-Schücking Institute, University of Kiel,
Ms Dina Dobrkovic, LL.B.,
as Assistants. - 9 -
M. Aleksandar Djurdji ć, LL.M., premier secrétaire au ministère des affaires étrangères de la
Serbie-et-Monténégro,
M. Miloš Jastrebi ć, deuxième secrétaire au ministère des affaires étrangères de la
Serbie-et-Monténégro,
M. Christian J. Tams, LL.M., PhD. (Cambridge), Institut Walther-Schücking, Université de Kiel,
Mme Dina Dobrkovic, LL.B.,
comme assistants. - 10 -
The PRESIDENT: Please be seated. The Court now meets to hear the evidence of the next
witness called by Serbia and Montenegro, Mr. Vitomir Popovi ć. The witness may now be brought
into court, and the interpreter may now take her place.
I call upon Mr. Popovi ć to make the solemn declaration for witnesses, as set down in
Article 64 (a) of the Rules of Court.
MOr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : I solemnly declare upon my honour and
conscience that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. I would like to remind the witness to pause regularly in
order to allow for the consecutive interpretation. I now give the floor to Mr. Brownlie to begin his
examination.
Mr. BROWNLIE: Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Popovi ć, I would suggest that, when
you answer questions and in general address th e Court, you do not face towards counsel.
Mr. Popović, if I could ask you to give your statement to the Court.
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: I am Vitomir Popović and I was born in 1956,
in Bistrica in Banja Luka municipality. I graduated from the Faculty of Law in Banja Luka in
1980. I obtained my PhD from the Faculty of La w in Belgrade in 1991. From 1996 until the end
of 2003, I was a judge and member of the Huma n Rights Commission of the Chamber of Human
Rights of Bosnia and Herzegovina. From 1997 to 2002, I was a judge and Vice-President of the
Constitutional Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Since February 2004, I have been serving as one
of the three ombudsmen for human rights in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was elected to the office
by the Parliamentary Assembly of Bosnia and Her zegovina by a two-thirds majority vote. I teach
international commercial law at a faculty of law in Banja Luka.
From 20 January 1993 to 18 August 1994, I was Deputy Prime Minister of Republika Srpska
in charge of internal affairs. My chief task was to co-ordinate the work of several ministries,
including the Ministries of Justice, Education, Science and Culture, and Religion. Being a
professor of international law, I was also inte nsively involved in the harmonization of the
legislation of Republika Srpska with the European Union. During my time in office and later, the - 11 -
Government of Republika Srpska was complete ly independent in decision making and the
implementation of its decisions. And it maintain ed partnership relations with other governments
and institutions. It is my opinion that we cont rolled the overall situation in that period to the
greatest extent possible, even the circumstanc es of war, and that we created the necessary
conditions for the preservation of our territory, people and army. The Government maintained
partnership relations with the Governments of Serbia and Montenegro, the Republic of Serb
Krajina, Herceg-Bosna and the Autonomous Rep ublic of Western Bosnia. Of particular
importance was humanitarian aid that we receive d from a number of countries, for example,
Yugoslavia, Russia, Greece, Germany and the Unite d States, which mostly consisted of food and
medicines. The aid was supplied and distri buted by governmental and non-governmental
humanitarian organizations. The entire Govern ment devoted much attention to every peace
initiative. For us in the Government the Van ce-Owen peace plan had great importance. The
Assembly of Republika Srpska first voted on the pl an at a session held in Bijelina at the end of
April 1993. The session was also attended by the th en Foreign Minister of the Federal Republic of
Yugoslavia, Mr. Vladislav Jovanović. Mr.Jovanovi ć presented a joint request made by
Slobodan Milošević, MomirBulatovi ć and DobricaCosi ć to the effect that the Vance-Owen plan
had to be accepted. Given that the majority of Deputies were not satisfied with some of the
solutions contained in the peace plan, particularly as concerned the territories that would belong to
Republika Srpska, a decision was made to put th e plan to a referendum in Republika Srpska.
Following continued pressures to accept the plan, at the initiative of the then Greek Prime Minister,
Mr.Mitsotakis, Radovan Karadži ć accepted in Athens to sign the peace plan on 1May 1993, on
condition that a plan be also accepted by the A ssembly of Republika Srpska. The Assembly’s
session was held on 5 and 6May 1993. Given the importance of the issue discussed, the session
was also attended by the President of Republika Sr pska and the entire Cabinet. Also attending
were special guests. Greek Prime Minister C onstantine Mitsotakis, President of the Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia, DobricaCosi ć, President of the Republic of Serbia, SlobodanMiloševi ć,
President of Montenegro, Momir Bulatovi ć, President of the Chamber of Citizens of the Assembly
of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, Radoman Božović, President of the Chamber of Republics
of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, MilosRadulovi ć, and President of the Assembly of the - 12 -
Republic of Serbia, ZoranLili ć. The introductory speech was delivered by the President of the
Republic, Dr. Radovan Karadžić, who explained that he had put his signature on the Vance-Owen
plan conditionally and that the final decision on th at matter rested with the National Assembly and
emphasized strongly that consequences of acceptance or rejection would be very great. Following
the speech of the President of the Republic, Dr.RadovanKaradži ć, the Assembly was also
addressed by special guests ⎯ Mr. Constantine Mitsotakis, Mr. Dobrica Cosić
Mr. Slobodan Milošević and Mr.MomirBulatovi ć. In addressing the National Assembly, the
special guests urged the Deputies to accept the pl an. In their speeches, however, the MPs argued
that the plan was unacceptable, that instead of 64percent of the territory in which the Serbs
constituted the majority population, it offered only 44 per cent and that of the ten industrial centres
in which 70 per cent of the assets of Bosnia and He rzegovina were concentrated, only one, namely
Banja Luka, would remain in Republika Srpska. Of the 65 MPs who were present at the session of
the National Assembly when it took the vote, 51Deputies voted for the proposed conclusion to
reject the plan and put into effect the d ecision made by the Parliament in Bijeljina on
25April1993, according to which the decision on the Vance-Owen plan was to be made at a
referendum scheduled for 15 and 16May 1993. Two Deputies voted against the proposal and
12 abstained.
Following that session of Parliament, the Cabine t held its 69thmeeting. One of the main
items on the agenda concerned an agreement on how the Government of Republika Srpska should
work in extraordinary circumstances. After a long debate in which almost all Ministers took part, it
was assessed that the situation in Republika Srps ka was very complex and that it would further
deteriorate given the rejection of the Vance-Owe n plan by the National Assembly. Since the
possibility of bombardment of Republika Srpska was also mentioned during the parliamentary
debate, a series of measures and activities needed to be undertaken in order to prevent panic and the
situation getting out of control, while simultaneously making all the necessary preparations for
possible forms of resistance and protection of th e population and property. It was agreed, to
organize the work of the Government so as to en able it to continue to function throughout the
territory of the Republic in all conditions. To this end, the Ministers were assigned to take action
on behalf of the Government, in specific regions a nd municipalities in order to ensure that the laws - 13 -
were respected and that the authorities were func tioning. It was agreed that I should be the
co-ordinator of such activities in the area of Kra jina. Each of the Mini stries was instructed to
prepare a programme of measures and activities in their respective sectors.
The Government predictions were proved correct by the fact that on that very day, on
6 May 1993, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia introduced sancti ons against Republika Srpska.
All forms of earlier partnership and co-operation were stopped, and all Ministers and MPs were
prohibited from entering the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. All forms of economic assistance
were also stopped. Even goods destined for Republika Srpska that only transited through the
Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were seized. The treatment of the wounded in medical and
rehabilitation centres proceeded w ith difficulty, and humanitarian co-operation was to a great
extent suspended, the result of which was that the overall situation in Republika Srpska became
even more complex and difficult.
All governmental and bodies, including those on the local level, each and every one, would
feel their competence and powers, were forced to seek a way out of the situation. We developed
co-operation with the Government of Herceg-B osna and the Government of the Autonomous
Republic of Western Bosnia, with the dias pora and with a number of governmental and
non-governmental humanitarian organizations fro m abroad. Of particular importance was
co-operation with the Government of Herceg-B osna and the Government of the Autonomous
Republic of Western Bosnia. In my capacity of Deputy Prime Minister, I took part in talks with
representatives of the Governments of Herceg-B osna and the Autonomous Republic of Western
Bosnia. Owing to that co-operation we secure d 10,000tons of oil derivatives and enabled our
population to complete the autumn and spring sowing, thus securing food for the people and army
of Republika Srpska. Co-operation with the Govern ment of Herceg-Bosna and the Government of
the Autonomous Republic of Western Bosnia was no secret. The media knew about these contacts
and reported them to the public. At the time and in addition to a co-operation with the two entities
that I spoke about ⎯ the Croat entity of Herceg-Bosna and the Bosniak entity of the Autonomous
Republic of Western Bosnia ⎯ we also endeavoured to the extent possible, to intensify other forms
of economic co-operation, especially in the area of foreign investments. We were also intensively
involved in the implementation of a number of projects of non-governmental organizations and - 14 -
other organizations which specialized in rendering ai d in difficult situations, like the one we faced.
I was personally very much involved in the implementation of a project of the Danish NGO Caritas
for the expansion of the medical centre in Banja Luka. The project was successfully completed,
and the hospital rendered medical assistance to all who needed it, irrespective of their ethnic or
religious background.
Thank you, Madam President.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr. Brownlie.
Mr. BROWNLIE: Madam Presid ent, I would thank Mr.Popovi ć for his statement to the
Court. I have just one question to put to this witness. He referred to the Vance-Owen plan. Would
he please tell the Court what he knows about the peace plan relating to the Contact Group?
PMOr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Immediately after the rejection of the
Vance-Owen Plan, the International Community pr oceeded to draft a new peace plan, which was
better known as the Contact Group plan. The me mbers of the Contact Group included the United
States, Germany, France and Russia. The plan wa s presented to the public of Republika Srpska in
July 1994. The plan was submitted for approval to the National Assembly of Republika Srpska on
18 and 19 July 1994. The introductory speech at that session was delivered by the Speaker of the
National Assembly who said that, a day before, he had discussed the plan with the leadership of the
Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and that the FRY leadership suggested that the plan should be
accepted.
Following a debate in the National Assembly of Republika Srpska, the plan was rejected.
The MPs argued that, like the previous plan, the ne w plan also did not reflect the interests of
Republika Srpska because under the new plan, in th e territory of the Federation of Bosnia and
Herzegovina, which was established at the end of March under the Washington Agreement, there
would also now be some towns that at the ti me were in Republika Srpska. This primarily
concerned parts of the municipalities that we re in Republika Srpska at the time–– the
municipalities of Klju č, Sanski Most, and Prijedor. And also the municipalities of Brod and
Šamac. The plan did not envisage any links be tween the eastern and western parts of Republika
Srpska, save for a 4-km wide corridor. Out of the 67 per cent of the territory that was controlled by - 15 -
Republika Srpska, the plan offered to Republika Srps ka 46 per cent of the territory. After the plan
was rejected, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia imposed a tota l embargo on Republika Srpska.
International monitors and observers were placed on the border, and all forms of assistance and
co-operation were put into question or suspended.
I was a member of the Government until 18 August 1994, following which I returned to my
academic career. But irrespective of that, I knowthat this total embargo imposed by the Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia remained in force until the signing of the Dayton Peace Accords on
14 December 1995.
Mr. BROWNLIE: Thank you very much. Madam President, that concludes the
examination-in-chief. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr. Brownlie. You have the floor, Ms Korner.
Ms KORNER: Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Popovi ć, is it your case that no aid at all
was received from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia after the rejection of the Vance-Owen plan?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : After the rejection of the Vance-Owen plan
on 6May1993, Republika Srpska was put into a blockade. All economic contacts between
companies in Republika Srpska and companies in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia were
reduced to a minimum. All forms of humanitarian assistance were also reduced to a minimum.
Immediately after the imposition of sanctions, virtually a few days later ⎯ and this is something I
personally know happened ⎯ the wounded were returned from the Raja border point and this also
happened on other border points.
Ms KORNER: I am sorry, I do not want to in terrupt you, but I have a very limited amount
of time to ask you questions. Can I just ask you very simply: are you saying that you receinod
financial assistance from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia after the beginning of May 1993?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : To my knowledge, we received no financial
assistance, and humanitarian assistance was reduced to a minimum. And, again to my knowledge,
we actually never received any financial assistance from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. - 16 -
Ms KORNER: So, as far as you are concerned, it is not financial assistance for the military
to be paid through the 30th and 40thPersonnel Centres in Serbia–– set up, I should add, in
November 1993.
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Absolutely not. We, as I said, had
partnership relationships, and the Government of Republika Srpska had invested all efforts to pay
its own members of its own army an d police and it could have happened ⎯ it is possible ⎯ that
some of the former JNA officers who remained in Bosnia received part of their salaries in that way,
but I simply cannot tell whether that happened or not. The Ministry of Defence was not the sector
of which I was in charge, and there was no inforation to that effect at any of the government
sessions.
MsKORNER: I want to change, please, the subject slightly. On 7April1993 your
Government passed the decision on establishing the Commission for International Law, did it not?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Yes.
Ms KORNER: And you were made the President of the Commission?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Correct.
Ms KORNER: And the decision was signed by the Prime Minister, Mr. Lukić. That is right,
is it not?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Probably, because the Prime Minister signed
the decisions.
Ms KORNER: What was the purpose of this Commission?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: The purpose of establishing this Commission
was to enable full implementation of international law in the territory of Republika Srpska. To a
certain extent it also applies to the obligation to apply the provisions of the European Convention
for the Protection of Human Rights. One of the conclusions proposed to the Government for
adoption was that, where it concerned the formeJNA officers and members of the former JNA
who left the territory of Republika Srpska, tenable them to have unhindered access to their
property. Or, more specifically, to have unhindere d access to the flats whose tenancy rights they
obtained from the former JNA. - 17 -
Ms KORNER: Did you, yourself, do work on this Commission?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Yes.
Ms KORNER: Was one of its stated aims the participation in the work of competent bodies
on preparing a reply to the lawsuit on alled genocide which was committed by the Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: I cannot remember that.
Ms KORNER: Madam President, this is one of the times . . .
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: But if you permit, I know that one of the main
conclusions for the work of this Commission was to collect information and present information to
the international public about the crimes committed against the Serb population. And that
following that a special War Crimes Commission was set up.
MsKORNER: Yes, but can we stick, please, w ith the part I have just put to you? The
lawsuit referred to is this case, is it not?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: I told you that I do not remember. So I do not
rule out either possibility. But in any case, that was not the primary task of this Commission.
Ms KORNER: You say that. I think it is only right, Madam President ⎯ and this is the only
document I want to show the witness: there are copies for the Court and for the other side.
Because I think it is important enough that he sees this. Could we hand them out? They are both in
his language and in English. At the back you will see the version in Serbian. I would like you to
have a look, please, MrPopovi ć, at Article 2. You need not read it aloud, but just refresh your
memory and then tell us, please, what it refer. It is the second task. You have now had a
chance to read it, Mr. Popovi ć. Can you tell us, please, does this not refer to the case that is being
heard now at this Court?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Probably.
Ms KORNER: What work did you do in preparation for the case that was being launched by
Bosnia against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Are you referring to the one in 1993?
Ms KORNER: I am referring to the one that began in 1993. What work did you do? - 18 -
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : We did not at the time specifically address
ourselves to this Application. It was a jumatter of informing the public that such a place did
indeed exist. It had never been submitted to th e Government of Republika Srpska, or to any other
competent organ. We mainly dealt with these isses that I just talked about, mainly the crimes
committed against the Serb population in the territory of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Ms KORNER: Could you look, please, at the penultimate sentence at the end of Article2,
which begins “Co-operation with legal experts fro m the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia”. Just
read that to yourself.
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : That sentence certainly stands, but as I have
said we did not specifically address ourselves to that particular issue.
Ms KORNER: So when I asked you whethe r you had done any work for the Commission,
and you said “yes”, you did no work along the lines set out in the second task, or the penultimate
task?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Not at the time and, as I have said –– let me
just incidentally recall that this decision w as adopted on 20 May 1993––, after the Vance-Owen
plan situation, I personally and other members of the Commission, the Ministers, were forbidden
entry into the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
MsKORNER: So you say, Mr. Popovi ć, and I have to say formally on behalf of those I
represent that we challenge that statemenThank you very much. You can put that document
away. I want now to ask you about another part of your life.
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Well, I absolutely claim that what I said is
true.
Ms KORNER: It is right, is it not, that in 1992 you were a member of the SDS party?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Yes, it is.
MsKORNER: And in 1992, were you appointed as a judge to the Lower Court in Banja
Luka?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : No, I was not. It is true that I had been a
judge, but many years before that. In 1992, I was appointed President of the Lower Court in Banja
Luka. And as a judge, I exclusively dealt with civil law cases. - 19 -
Ms KORNER: It is right, however, is it not, Mr. Popovi ć, that during the course of 1992, as
a result of decrees, in particular from the CrStaff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, all
non-Serb judges were removed from the Lower Court?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : I think that is not correct. A number of
judges of other ethnicities remained at their posts to work unhindered in the Banja Luka court, as
well as in other courts. Regrettably, some of theleft because of the fact that their families had
left. And the main judge in the investigation pof the procedure, which was in fact very much
the order of the day ⎯ I mean the investigation procedure –– was a judge, Zoran Lipovac, of Croat
ethnicity. Some of the judges left in 1994. Judges not only of other ethnic groups left the court,
but judges who were of Serbian ethnicity also left that court.
MsKORNER: There are two ques tions, I am sorry. First of all, if a judge is removed, do
you as the President of the court have to authorize it?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: No.
Ms KORNER: Does the President have any influence over whether or not a judge is
removed from office?
MPr. POVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : The Registrar of the court,
Mr. Hilmija Hadžić, who was a Bosniak and who worked at the court until 1993 actually kept
records on the attendance of all employed at the ourt and this was part of his job description.
According to the labour law which is still today in force, if someone failed to show up at work for
five consecutive days that person’s employment would be terminated by dint of law. So it was a
case of termination of employment by dint of law. And the President of the court, according to
other bases of the need that had arisen, coul d then propose to the National Assembly the
appointment of new judges. But the Assembly had its own special commission for elections which
was a sort of a personnel commission and the President of the court did not influence the decision
making of that commission.
Ms KORNER: Thank you. Just one last question on that. As you put it, a number of
Muslim and Croat judges were removed and you put it on the grounds that they did not show up for
work for five days. Have I understood that correctly?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: And Serbs, and Serbs. - 20 -
Ms KORNER: Thank you. I want to move to a different topic again. You were in Banja
Luka on 12 May 1992, were you not?
PMOP.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Probably. I cannot say. I do not know what
took place on 12 May.
Ms KORNER: Did you attend the Assembly of the Serbian People held on 12 May when the
VRS was established and Karadžić announced the six strategic goals?
POrP.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: I was not a cabinet member. I did not attend
the Assembly session because I was not a member of the Government at that time.
Ms. KORNER: When did you first hear about the six strategic goals?
PMOr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : I did not deal with these matters at all, as I
have already explained, and the military, the army was exclusively within the ambit of the Ministry
of Defence. Of course I was aware of the fact that the army of Republika Srpska had been
established, probably at that session of the Assembly.
Ms KORNER: No, but I asked about the six strategic goals, please, enunciated by Karadžić.
When did you first hear about those goals?
MOr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Well, I have to be frank, I really do not
remember these six goals.
Ms KORNER: When you were in the Governme nt in 1993, you presumably had to read the
Official Gazette of the Government?
PMOP.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: I said in my introductory remarks that I was
in charge of specific Ministries. The Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of the Interior and a whole
series of other Economic Ministries were not within my sphere of competence. The Government
had another Vice-President. And he was in char ge of economic affairs. These Ministries, these
two Ministries, which would be of relevance inrespect of the goals that you mention were not
within his ambit nor within my sphere of competence either.
Ms KORNER: The simple question, which I do no t believe you have answered, Sir, is this.
Were you as Deputy Prime Minister obliged to read the Official Gazette of the Government?
PMOr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Well, I shall repeat this so that it might be
quite clear. What I was under the obligation to was to deal with regulations and issues which - 21 -
were exclusively within my sphere of competence. That is actually written in so many words in the
law on the Government.
Ms KORNER: So, are you saying ⎯ just so we all understand it finally ⎯ that you were
unaware that Karadžić had set six strategic goals for the Bosnian Serbs to achieve?
MOr. OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : There were many goals from the very
beginning of war operations until the end of thr, until the signature of the Dayton Accords.
But I am not ruling out the possibility that these six were among them but I did not address myself
to them, deal with them nor was I under any obligation to do so.
Ms. KORNER: So you did not see the publication ⎯ and this is the final question ⎯ in the
Official Gazette on 26 November 1993?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: No.
Ms KORNER: During the course of your time in government, in August 1994, there was a
decision, was there not, to change the names of places in municipalities?
MOr. OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : These decisions were taken on several
occasions, in several instances, so if I could please se e what particular decision or what particular
influence you are referring to . . .
Ms KORNER: No, it is not the particular I wa nt, it is the concept. What was the purpose of
changing the names of villages and, indeed, municipalities?
POrP.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Well I ask you this previous question because
I myself was a member of the Government until 18 August 1994, so I was asking whether you refer
to any decisions made to that effect prior to that date or after it?
Ms KORNER: I want to know ⎯ you have just said th is happened on many occasions ⎯
what I want to know is why the Bosnian Serb Government, just in your time, decided to change the
names of villages and municipalities?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Can you please tell me when was the decision
taken?
Ms KORNER: I can, but it is not a difficult qu estion, please, Sir. I will certainly tell you,
this was taken on 16 August and it was to change the name of something in the Milići municipality.
Does that remind you? - 22 -
PMOr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Well, you see, both in the Republika Srpska
and in the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina decisions were taken to change the pre-war
names of places. For instance, a town in the Federation which used to be called Gornji Vakuf
became Uskoplje. I know that for such purposes, or rather in such inst ances, special commissions
were set up comprising linguists and historians and they proposed changes of names and
designations of places to the National Assembly. Practically, it was regulated by the law on
self-government. As for Mili ći I cannot really recall what exactly happened in respect of ći:i
Milići has always been Milići as far as I can remember.
Ms KORNER: Was it not, in fact, to erad icate the Muslim and the Croat names from the
area that the Serbs were claiming as theirs?
PMOP.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: No. Absolutely not. What is the connection
between Croat and Muslim names and the designation of Milići? Of course this law did not change
the names and the surnames of Croats and Muslims, it was only changing the names of places in
both the Federation and Republika Srpska. I claim responsibly here that not a single name, first
name or last name, was changed, nor was that possible.
The PRESIDENT: Ms Korner, even when I allo w a time-out for translation control, you are
coming towards the end.
Ms KORNER: Yes I am, I just, one more very quick topic.
The PRESIDENT: Yes.
Ms KORNER: Mr. Popovi ć, you received letters, didn’t you, from BishopKomarica,
complaining about the destruction that was taking place in areas where there was no fighting, to
Catholic churches.
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: That is correct.
Ms KORNER: You did have responsibility for culture and religion, didn’t you?
POPr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Yes, I did.
Ms KORNER: Did you take any steps to protect the Catholic monuments, churches and
indeed the Catholic people from the abuses? - 23 -
PMOr.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : We did everything possible, everything that
we could possibly do about it.
MPO.POVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : I had several meetings with
BishopKomarica, and we worked together on the programme of the Danish Caritas organization
for our medical establishments in Banja Luka.
PMOP.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: So after, Komarica, and the representative of
the Danish Caritas had put their signature on thisagreement, I actually put it into practice.
Immediately after that, I received a high honour from the Papal Nuncio, from the Vatican,
primarily on account of the protection of human rights and freedoms. This citation is in my
briefcase, which is outside and I can show it you. Regrettably the greatest problems for the
Croats actually ensued after the Croatian regul ar army had expelled some 80,000Serbs from the
areas of Glamoč, Grahovo, Drvar, Petrovac, and some other places. This took place in 1995, in the
course of 1995, when I was not a member of the G overnment. But even had I been a member of
the Government, I would not have been able to actually do anything. Eightythousand people,
refugees and displaced people in a lengthy column which was also bombed on the way into the . . .
Ms KORNER: I am sorry. Please, may I stop you there because we have gone right away
from the subject. You’ve explained what you did.
The PRESIDENT: Put your final question, please.
Ms KORNER: I am going to. Did you take an y steps such as ordering the police to guard
the nine major mosques that were blown up in Banja Luka in 1993?
POrP.OVI Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: At that time, namely, on 5 and 6 May 1993, I
was attending a session, as I explained a while ago, of the National Assembly of Republika Srpska
at Pale. Initially, together with representatives of the religious communities, the police did guard
the different places of worship. But the need to despatch a number of the people of the police force
to the battlefields and to the zones where combat operations were taking place actually diminished
the number available to perform routine police duties, including guarding such structures.
Ms KORNER: Thank you. - 24 -
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. I now ask Mr. Brownlie if he wishes to re-examine?
Mr. BROWNLIE: There is no re-examination, Madam President.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr. Brownlie. The Court will now retire but the Parties and
the witness should remain in the vicinity of the Gr eat Hall of Justice. If the Court wishes to pose
questions to the witness, it will return to the c ourtroom within the next 15minutes. If the Court
does not wish to put any questi ons to the witness, it will not return to the courtroom and the
Registry will inform the Parties and the public accordingly.
The Court now rises.
The Court rose at 4.25 p.m.
___________
Audience publique tenue le jeudi 23 mars 2006, à 15 heures, au Palais de la Paix, sous la présidence de Mme Higgins, président