INTERNATIONALCOURTOF JUSTICB
PLEADINGS, ORAL ARGUMENTS,DOCUMENTS
SOUTH WEST AFRICACASES
(ETHIOPIv.SOUTH AFRICA;
LIBERIAvSOUTHAFRICA)
VOLUME XI
COUR DITIZWATiONALDRJUSTICB
MÉMoIREs, PLAIDOIRIES ETDOCUMENTS
AFFAIRESDU SUD-OUEST AFRICAIN
(~THIOPIc.AFRIQUEDU SUD;
- LIBBR IAAFRIQUE DU SUD)
VOLUMEXIAl1 rights reserved by the
International Court of Justice
Tous droits réserves par la
Cour internationale de Justice Abbreviatedreference:
I.C.J.Pleadings,SouthWestAfrica,
Vol.XI
Référenceabrkgée:
C.I.J. MémoiresSud-Ouest africain,
vol.XI
Salesnnunber
No de venter SOUTH WEST AFRICA CASES
(ETHIOPIA IISOUTH AFRICA;
LIBERIA v.SOUTH AFIUCA)
AFFAIRES DU SUD-OUEST AFRICAIN
(ÉTHIOPIE c.AFRIQUE DU SUD;
LIBÉRIA c. AFRIQUE DU SUD) INTERNATIONACOURT OF JUSTICE
PLEADINGS,ORAL ARGUMENTS, DOCUMENTS
SOUTH WEST AFRICA CASES
(ETHIOPIA vSOUTH AFRTCA;
LIBERIA v,SOUTH AFRICA)
VOLUME XI
COUR INTERNATIONALEDEJUSTICE
MEMOIRES, PLAIDOIRIES ET DOCUMENTS
AFFAIRES DU SUD-OUEST AFRICAIN
(ÉTHIOPIc.AFRIQUE DU SUD;
LIBÉRIA c. AFRIQUE DU SUD)
VOLUME XIPKIKTISD 1s THE KETHERLANDS The present volume contains the continuation of the oralarguments
on the merits and the evidence of witnesses and experts in theSouth
blTesAt lriccas and coversthe period20 September to 19October 1965.
The beginning of the oral arguments on the me~it(15 hlarch to15 June
1965) is published in Volume VIII, pages 105-712,Volume I)i, pages
1-658 and Volume X, pages 1-558 T.he proceedings in thescases,which
were entered on the Court's Generd List on 4 November 1960 under
numbers 46 and 47, werejoined by an Order of the Court o20 May 1961
(South Wcst Af~ica,Orderoj 20 May rg6r, I.C.J. Reports 1961,p. 13).
T~voJudgments were given, the first on 21 December 1962(So~ihWest
Ajrica, Preliminary Objections,Judgment,i.C.1. Refiorts196.2 p, 3rg),
and the second on 18 July 1966 (South West Afrzca, Second Phase,
Jttdgment,I.C.J. Re$orts1966,p. 6).
Cross references correspond to the paginationof the present edition,
the volume being indicatedby a roman figurein bold type.
The Hague, 1966.
Le présent volume contient lasuite des plaidoiries sur le fond et les
dépositionsdes témoinset expertsdans lesaffail-du Sud-Oa~esfafricain;
il porte surla période allant du20 septembre au 19octobre 1965 .a
drernièrepartie des plaidoiriessur le fond (15mars-15 juin 1965) est
pubIiéedans levolume VIII, pages 105 A712 e volume IX, pages Ià 658
et levoluineS, pages 1-558 C esaffaires ont Stéinscrites rBlegénéral
dc la Cour sous lesnos46 et 47le4 novembre 1960et les deux instances
ont étéjointes par ordonnance de laCour le 20 mai 1961 (Stcd-ûuest
ajricairt, ordonlzandu 20 .mai 1961,C.1.J. Recueil 1961,p. 13). Elles
ont fait l'objede deus arrêtsrendus le 21 dhcembre 1962 (Sud-Ouest
africai~texceptionsfiréLiminaires,rrétC.I.J. Recueil 1962, p. 319) et
le 18juille1966(Sz~d-Oues ca/yicainde~xième #hase,arrêtC, .1.j. RecueiE
1966, p. G).
Les renvois tiennent compte de la pagination de laprésente édition,
un chiffre romain gras indiquant le numéro du volume auquel il est
renvoyé.
La Haye, 1966. CONTENTS . TABLE DES MATI~RES
PART II .ORAL ARGUMENTS (continued)
DEUXIÈME PARTIE . PLAIDOIRIES (suite)
ANNEXES TO THE MINUTES (coqdinued)
ANKEXES AUX PROCÈS-VERBAUX (suite)
Page
24. Wearings of the witnesses and experts (cont.) (zoIX-19 X 65). 3
Evidence of the Rev .Gericke (witness and expert) ..... 3
Examination by Afr.Rabie ............... 4
Cross-examination by Jfr .Gross ............ 12
Witness questioned by Judge Jessuprald ..........e ... 62
Witness questioned by Judge Sir Louis hIbanefo ..... 63
Witness questioned by the President .......... 64
Evidence of Prof .Krogh (witness and expert) ........
Examination by Mr . Muller .............. 67
Cross-examination by Mr. Gross ............ 686
Witness questioned by Judge Forster .......... zoo
Witness questioned by Judge Sir Louis Mbanefo ..... 203
Evidence of Mr. Pepler (witness and expert) ........ 206
Examination by Mr . Muller .............. 207
Cross-examination by Mr .Gross ............ 2I9
Witness questioned by Judge Jessup .......... 248
Explanation by Mr .Pepler............... 2.51
Evidence of Dr . van Zyl (witness and expert)........ 251
Examination by Mt . Rabie ............... 252
Cross-examination by Ai. Gross ............ 268
Witness qucstioned by Judge Sir Louis JZbanefo ..... 315
Evidence of Professor Rautenbach (witness and expert) ... 326
Examination by Mr . Grosskopf ............. 326
Cross-examination by Mr. Gross ............ 345
Wit:ness questioned by Judge Sir Gerald Fitzrnaürice ... 443
Witness questioned by Judge Sir Louis Mbanefo ..... 448
Witness questioned by the Preçident .......... 450
Further questions by Judge Sir Louis Mbanefo ...... 4.51
Re-examination by Mr. Grosskopf ........... 452
Evidence of Mr .Dahlmann (witness and expert) ...... 455
Examination by Mr . Muller .............. 456
Cross-examination by Mr .Gross ............ 480
Re-examinniion by Mr .bfuller ............. 570
Evidence of General Marshall (witness and expert) ..... 574
Ex;imination by llr. hluUer .............. 574
Cross-examination by Mr .Gross ............ 587
Evidence of Professor Manning (witness and expert) ..... 599
Exiimination by Mr . Rabie ............... 600
Cross-examination by Mr .Gross ............ 619
Evidence of Professor Possony (witness anil expert) ..... 643
Examination by Mr .Muller .............. 647 PART II (contifzz~ed)
SECTION B
ORAL ARGUMENTS ON THE MERITS
PUBLIC HEARINGS
held /rom15March to14Jz~ly,zoSeplember to
15 November and 29 November 1965, 21 March and
oa 18 July1966,the President, Sir Percy Spender, presiding
(continued)
PARTIE II (sztite)
SECTION B
PLAIDOIRIES RELATIVESAU FOND
AUDIENCES PUBLIQTTES
tenues d,l5 mars au14 juiEEedu 20 sq5temhre
au 15 novembre,le29.novembre1965,le 21mars
etle 18jztill1966,sous la présiderteede
sirPercySpe~zder,Prdsident
(suite) ANNEX TO TEE MINUTES (cmtiaued)
ANNEXEAUX PROCÈS-VERBAUX (suite)
24. HEARINGS OF THE WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
(codinued)
AT THE PUBLIC HEARING OF 20 SEPTEMBER 1g6j
Mr. MUILER:Mr. President, the next ~vitnt:ssas indicated to the
Applicants, will be the Reverend hlr. Gerick1ask the leave of the Court
for Dr. Rabie to introduce the witness, to explain howhis testimony willbe
relevant and to put, with the permission of the Court, certain questions
to the witness.
The PRESIDENT: Rlr. Muller, is the Agent for the Respondent not
present ?
Mr. MULLER :r. President, yes, but 1 have been asked nierely to
indicate to the Court who the next witness will be, with the authority
of the Agent.
The PRESIDEET M:r. Muller, will you proceed?
Mr. MULLER: Yes, Mr. President. 1 shall ask Dr. Rabie to introduce
the witness, the Reverend Mr. Gericke, and to indicate to the Court the
relevance of his evidence,
Mr. RABIE:May it please you, Mr. President, honourableMembers of
the Court, the evidence of the Reverend Jacobus Stephanus Gericke will
relate toissuesraised under the Applicants' Submissions Nos. 3 and 4.
It willbe directed tothefollowing points, asset ouin aletter addressed
by the Respondent's Agent to the Deputy-Registrar of this honourable
Court on 30 July, a copy of which was transmitted to the Applicants'
Agents. The same information was repeated in a letter sent to the
Applicants' Agents on the 18th instant.1 quote,Mr. President:
"Considerations underlying the developinent in the Dutch Re-
formed Church of a system of separate churches for Coloured and
Bantu members. The advantages of such development for Coloured
and Bantu members and the communities to which they belong. The
significancofthe Church's experience of differepopulation groups
for the Statein its administrationof a heterogeneous population.
[And Finally] The Church's concern with the social, political and
econoinic life and circumstances of the various population groups
and their rnembers, and with the formation and implementation of
State policy in these fields."
Mr. President, may I also say, beforthe witness is introduced, that
the Reverend Mr. Gericke isAfrikaans-speaking and that he is not very
confident of expressing his thoughts properly in English at al1 times?
Because of practical difficulties connected with translationhas,how-
ever, agreedand decided to give his evidence in English. May1now ask
the witnesj to take the stand and, Mr, President, may 1 ask that the
witness be caIledupon to make both the declarations provided for ithe
Rules-that is, as witness and expert?
The PRESIDENT:The witness will make both declarations.4 SOUTHWEST AFRICA
hlr. GERICKE I: my capacity asawitness 1solemnly declare, upon my
honour and conscience, that 1will speak the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth.In rny capacity asan expert Isolemnly declare,
upon my honour and conscience, thatrny staternent willbe in accordance
with my sincere belief.
Mr. RABIE:Alr. Gericke, your full names are Jacobus Stephanus
Gericke?
Mr.GERICKE T:hat is so, hlr. Presiclent.
Mr. RABIE:You are by occupation a minister of the Dutch Reformed
Churcli of South Africa, and you have your congregation at Stellenbosch
in the Cape Province of South Africn?
hlr. GERICKE Y:es,Mr. President.
hfr. RABIE:YOUhave been a.Minister of that Church for 27 years,
19of whick have been spent at Steilenbosch-is that correct?
hlr. GERICKE Y:es,&Ir.President.
&Ir.RABIE :l'ou are also Chairman of the Cou~icilof the University of
Stellenbosch?
The PRES~DEX TS:that correct, witness?
Alr. GERICKE T:hat is correct, 31r. President.
Mr. RARIE:YOUare furthermore Vice-Chairman of the Dutch Re-
formed Church Synod inSouth Africa, the Cape division thereof?
Xr, GERICKE:That is correct, >Ir. President.
air. RABIE:And you are at present Vice-Chairman and have for 20
years been a rnember of the General ;IIissions Commission of that
Church-is that right?
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is correct, hlr. President.
Mr. RABIE:YOUare a member of the Federal Council of the Dutch
Reformed Churches of South Africn, which isa body composed of repre-
ChurchesesinSouth Africa?an, Coloured and Bantu Dutch Reforined
Mr.GERICK EThat is so, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE:You were for some time Chairman of the Students'
Christian Association of South Africa, a body composed of students of
al1sections of the country's population-ithat right?
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is correctMr. President.
Mr. RABIEI:n 1958 you paid a viçit to the United States ofAmerica at
the invitation of the United States/South Africa Leaders Exchange Pro-
gramme; you spent somethreemonthç in the United States-is that right?
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is so, air. President.
>Ir. RABIE:And, during that tirne, you gave special attention ta
university administration and race relations-that right?
Mr. GERICKE Y:es, &Ir.Presidcnt.
Mr. RABIE:YOUare ais0 a mernber of the South African Bureau of
Racial Relationsa body which studies racial relations in the country-
is that correct?
&Ir.GERICKE That is correct, Rlr. President.
Mr. RARIE: Mi-Gericke, your officeasVice-Chairman of the General
Missions Commission and asa mernber of the Federal Council of Dutch
Reforrned Churches to which you have referred hrings you into frequent
contact with 13antu and Coloured Ministers and other leaders of the
Coloured and Bantu population grouys in South Africa-is that right?
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is so, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE: Now, Mr. Gericke, before proceeding to put my next WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 5
question to you, will you kindly tell the Court what your academic
qualifications are1 believe you have a B.A. Degree-is that rjght?
hlr. GERICKE:That is correct, Mr. President.
hlr.RABIE: And then you havc also obtained a degrce in theology at
the Theological Seminary at Stellenbosch?
hlr.GERICKET : hat jsso. Mr. President.
hlr. RABIE:Before putting rny ~iextand succeeditig questions,1would
liketo put the following points to you. Wehave had evidencehere about
the diversity of the population groups in South Africa and South West
Africa. The Applicants say that they are particularly concerned with
tvhat they cal1the qualitative aspectof the well-being of the inhabitants
of South West Africa, that is, with their moral well-being and social
progress. In tkis regard the Applicants rely on a suggested nom and
suggested standards which appear to emanate from a certain premise,
and this premise is apparently that the allotment of rights and obliga-
tions, burdens and privileges,on the basis of membership iii race, class
or groupmust iiecessarily be detrimental tothe inoral well-being and the
socialprogress of some ofthe inhabitants. In particular, the notion seems
to be that the provision of separate institutions and facilities for the
different population groups must inevitably be detrimental to such moral
well-being and social progrcss.
Thosc arethe points 1 wish to put to pou and now cornes my question.
Ras the Church of which you are a member to your knowledge gained
experience in Southern Africa wluch has a bearing on the matters 1 put
to you, that js,çeparate institutions and facilities aiid, in connection
there~vith, moral and social wvell-beingIhat do you Say, 3lr. Gericke?
hIr.GERICKE : r. President,yes.The Church is iiot concerned only
with what I may cal1the care of the soul. TheChurch is also deeply
concerned with the moral well-being and socialprogress of people and has
gailied extensive experience which, as1 see it, is relevant to this matter
which has been referred to.
hIr.RARIE: Before developing your answer, wiII you please indicate
to the Court what the fields of activity are and more particiilarly those
in which that experience wasgained.
$Ir.GERICKE :lr. Prcçident, first of al1there is the niissionary activity
of theDutch Refonncd Cliurch. The Dutch Reformed Church's activities
cover al1parts of South Africa and a part of South West Africa and extend
beyond the boundaries of our country to Bechuanaland, JlalaiviKho-
desia, Zambia and Nigeria, 1have had the privilege to vjsit al1these
mission fieldson several occasions, wjth the exception of Nigeria. Now
according to the latest information available, the annual expenditure of
the Dutch Reformed Church on missionary work has reached the figure
of 6 million rand, As the result of this work,ra independent daughter
Churches have been established in 14 differerit territories servin17
differeiit language groups.
hZr.RABIE : Mr. Gericke,your attention has been drawn to a summary
of the missionary activities of your Church in tlie Respondent's Rejoin-
der, V, at pages342 tu 344. Have you seen that summary?
Mr. GEKICKE M:r. Prcsident, yes 1 have seen the particulars and 1
think they give abrief and true indicatioof thenature and extent of the
Dutch Reformed Church's activities.
Mr. RARIE : OUhavc referred to rnissionary activities?
hlr.GERICKE :es, 1 am referring to missionary activities.6 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. RABIE:In addition to those, can you refer to other activities of
your Church?
Mr. GERICKEh:fr. President, the Dutch Reformed Church has always
given very special attention to medical care, to hospitalization, andalso
to education.
With reference to the medical work, the Dutch Reformed Church has
been able to greatly extend its hospitalization programme, partly due to
an increase of contributions from the White congregations but also
because of a State policy to subsidize such church enterprises. As an
example 1 may Say that in the course of 6 years the Dutch Refomed
Church erected 16new hospitals in the Transkei alone, as well as several
maternity hospitals. clinics, etc.allover the country. Several of these
hospitals provide for tuberculosis and leper patients.
With reference to the educational programme, the Church has provided
hundreds of schools (1am referring to the Dutch Reformed Church}for
prirnary and secondary education, as well ascoIleges for the training of
teachers, several theological seminaries forthe training of Bantu and
Coloured Ministers, also schools for the deaf and the mute, and schools
for the biind. Also, several youth organizations have been established
and in the Iargest cities, like Johannesburg,crécl~esand kindergartens
care for the children of working mothers.
The Church has also been active in the field of social welfare, for
example, in organizing social clubs, special classes, evening classand
interested itself in the teaching of illiterate adults and in providing
literature for the non-White community. At the present moment a special
fund for 6 million rand is being raised by the Dutch Reformed Chutch
forproviding literature for the Bantu people.
hfr.RABIE:Mr. Gericke, \vil1you indicate briefly to the Court the
nature of the interna1 organization of the Churcas far asColoured and
Bantu members are concerned.
Wr. GERICKE M:r. President, the name Dutch Reformed Church
actuall indicates a familyof churches equal in status. Usually we refer
to the $urch for the White people as the rnother Church. The Churches
for the non-White people, which resulted from the missionary enterprises
of the Dutch Reformed Church, are referred to as daughter Churches.
These daughter Churches are independent and the government of these
Churches rests with their respective synods, and the office bearers of
these synods are elected by ballot. Ofcourse, the daughter Churches still
need the support of the rnotherChurch in the form of financial aid and
also personnel.
The personnel supplied include ministers, doctors, nurses, teachers,
instructors and administrators. The training of the rninisters for the
daughter Churches is at present still undertaken by the mother Chur~h,
but the airn and policy of the Dutch Reformed Church is that each
population group should have its own self-governing Church. wherein
each group can be served in its own language and by its own leaders.
The PRESIUEND T:O1understand you, Mr. Gericke, to say that in the
daughter Church the synods are elected independently by the members
ofMr. GERICKETr C:hat is so, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENTA :nd who are the people who participate in the
election? WITNEÇSES AND EXPERTS 7
hlr. GERICK :The synod comprises a Riinister and an Elder from each
congregation or parish of this particiilar daughter church.
The PRESIDENT : ho participate in the election? Who arethe electors
of the synod?
hgr. GERICKE T:he local church councils.
The PRE~IDENT D:Othey comprise the members of the congregation
or are thert: White members who participate?
Mr. GERICKE N:O,they comprise the members of the congregation. In
some of the congregations there is still a White missionary, who acts as
Minister of the congregation.
The PRESIDEKTT : hank you.
&Ir.RABLE B:ut apart from the White missionary, the other members
who elect a Afinisterand an Elder are the respective CoIoured and Bantu
cornmunity?
Mr. GERICKE :es, that is so, Mr. President.
Mr.RABIE:Mr. Gericke, will you indicate whether this situation of
having separate churches in the Dutch Reformed Church existed from
the very beginning, orwhether it isa more recerit development?
Mr.GERICKE N:r.President, this pattern of church life is the outcome
of historical development. In the course ofhisïory several changes of
policy took place. In the main it may be said that at first the Dutch
Reforrned Church adhered to the policy of integation, but since the
beginning of the nineteenth century changed over to a policy of separate
churches or separate development in the Church. In the beginning the
church ser\lces were multi-racial, attended by White people, the slaves
at that time, and very few Aborigines. The firstschool was integratcd as
well but this soon proved to be impractical aridit was consequently
deMr. RABIEt :Can you say until xvhenthe Church maintained jts practice
of having integrated or multi-racial services?
Mr. GERICKET : his was the case up till the nineteenth century, Mr.
President. By this time it was clear that the results wcre very unsatis-
factory. Very few non-White people became Christians. Furthermore,
those who joined the Church had a very inadequate opportunity for full
religious experience. Tliey were a mere appendix to the White con-
gregation. They were seated in a separate part of the church and recelved
very little benefit from a service which was attuned to the needs and the
background of the White people.
Mr.RABIE:HOWdid this change in church policy corne about? Couid
you jndicate that verybrjefly?
blr. GERICKE M: r. Preçident, the early nineteenth century brought a
new awakening of missionary zeal al1over the western yorld. It was ai
this time that the great missionary societies werc estabhshed, for exam-
pie, the London Missionary Society and also the British and Foreign
Bible Society for the propagation of the gospel, and all this had a very
great influence on the misçionary zeal in South Africa and also inOU^
Church, with the consequence that very special efforts were made to
reach as many non-White people in the Cape as possible. It was athis
time that special and separate services were held for the Coloured
community and also separate churches were built to provide for the
spiritual need oan increaçing number of non-White people who started
joining the Church.
Mr. RABIE:To what did that lead?8 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. GERICKE This led to a resolution by our synod, a resolution in
the late 185os, officially permitting separate services for the Coloured
community, and eventuaiiy, about a quarter of a century later, tthe
establishment of a separate, independerit and self-governing Church for
the Coloured people of the Cape.
Mr.RABIE: Mr. Gericke, from your studyand knowledge of the matter
what would you say were the main consideratioiis in this regard, that is
about having separate churches for the different groupsi
&Ir.GERICKE: MC. President, as appearsfrom history, it became quite
clear that the difference in culture, language, level of intellectual devel-
opment and racial background,demanded a different method of approach,
even an adapted form of preaching; also, new hymns to serve as a means
of cxprcssion of religious experience.
In addition, there was no real communion, spiritual communion,
between the White and non-White members of the congregations, chiefly
due to the absence of social intercourse in ordinary life. Friction occurred
on occasion between groups as a resultof a feeling of frustration on the
part of the Coloured peoplewho found themselves ina minor positionin
the Church. At that timethere was a growing desire for separate services
and separate churches on the part of leading members of both groups.
Mr. RABIE: What was the significance of the establishment of that
firstseparate church for Coloureds?
Mr. GEHICKE: &Ir. Yresident, this marked the beginning of a new
pattern in Ourchurch life, namely the establishmenof separate churches
for the Uantu people as well. In the course of time,1have said before,
xz such daughter churches were established in the Republic and beyond.
Air. RABIE C:ould YOU Say ver)? briefly, you have already referred to
this, how the churches are governed and how they function on the local
parish level.
hlr. GERICKE:Mr. Yresident, asI said before, these daughter churches
are completely independent, the highest authority being the different
synods, and these synods comprise hlinisters and Elders from the different
congregations. On the localor parish level the Minister and the Church
Council regulate the matters pertaining to the spiritual welfare of the
congregation.
&Ir. RABIE: Xow, does the indepcndence of the daughter churches
irnply that there is no further relationship with the mother church?
Mr. GERICKE:Mr. President, apart from the financial and other aid to
which 1 have referred,I wishto point out that there are various channels
of communication, for example, the Federal Council of the Dutch
Reformed Churches. At this top level, the Federal Council provides the
opportunity for discussion of matters of policy for the ~vhole Church.
Representatives from a11the churches have equal authority and privilege
on this Council. The Federal Council also serves a means of expressing
the unity of the Dutch Reformed Churches.
Mr. RABIE :NOW,how is membership in the various churches regulated,
that is, the mother church and the daughter churches?
Mr. GERICKE : embership is regulatedby the local church councils.
However, it is an implied understanding among the different Dutch
Reformed Churches that each admits to mernbership those belonging to
the ethnic group concerned.
Mr. RABIE:Now, how does that principle work out in practice? Could
you Say it briefly? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
9
&Ir.GEKICKE :lr. President, experience has shown that members ofa
group join theirown church, the only exception being White missionaries
1~11bcconie members of the congregation they serve. Otherwise, 1know
of no case of a Bantu or Coloured person who has become or even wanted
to become a member of the White Church.
Mr. RAB~E : ow, Mr. Gericke, would you describe what you consider
to be the fruits of this system of having separate churches for the
different groups?
Mr. GERICKE: Nr. President, before deding specifically with this
question, 1 wish to point out that there haçbeen inrecent years a very
substantial increase of membership in the Dutch Reformed daughter
churches. During the past 15 years the membership lias been cloubled,
which would seem to indicate that this system haç some appeal for the
people.
NOW coming to the advantages, the experienceof the Dutch Reformed
Church ha; shown that the adherents desired no change in this arrange-
merit and that this system is beneficial to the adherents of the Church.
First ofall,this system provides fulopporturiity for self-development
for the members of the daughter churches. AU offices are open to them.
A neïv stimulusis provided for development of theirown leaders andthe
management of their own affairs. This has brought aboutamore positive
attitude and a new sense of enterprise and responsibility on the part of
the members of the daughter churches. Furthermore, this system has
stimulated CO-operation and removed poçsible ciccasions of friction.
The separated churches realize and appreciate the fact that they are
not merely an appendix of the White Church but churches rqual instatus.
This has redy engendered a spirit of CO-operiition, of mutual respect
and ofneighbourliness. They can now meet their White brotkers in the
church as equaIs. The present relationship between the mother and the
daughter churches is one of mutual respect and readiness to CO-operate.
hIr.RARIE: Bow, could you give us an exarnple of this spirit of co-
operation?
hlr. GEIUCKE& : .Ir.Presidentfirstofril Ilrnay say that there is an
increasing interest in the welfare of the daughter churches, fact~vhich
isreflected in a substantial increase of contributions, financial and other-
\vise.Let rne illustrate with one example.
\Vhen 1 became a ùlinister of the Church of Stellenbosch about 19
prs ago the annual co~itribution of that pasticular congregation for
missionarjr work was round about £2,000.In rg64 the annual contribution
was ,G~g,ooo.In this same period the numbcr of students of the University
of Stellenbosch, the local university, who volunteered for missionary
work during their weekends increased from roo ta 800 young people who
go oiit on Saturdays and Sundays to do tliiswork.
hIr.RABIE: KOW,Mr. Gericke, you have meritioned some advantageç
of the systcm. Are tfiere any othcrs towhich you wish to refer?
Xr. GERICKE:hlr. President, perhaps the most important fact is that
the daughter churches have become lesçand lesç deyendent on the
mother church, even financially. This autoncimy or independence is
reflected, among others, by the fact that these daughter churches are
now launching their own campaigns of evangelization beyond the
boundaries of their own congregations and their own countries.
Al1 these factors must have contributecl to giving the members a new
sense of self-respect and independence.IO SOUTHWEST AFRICA
But, &Ir.President, to me a point of suprerne importance is this, that
in this set-up the feelinof human dignity muçt corne into itç own.
Where you have independent self-governing churches and communities,
the requirement that one must love one's neighbour asoneself becomes
easier of fuIfilment than might otherwise be the case.
Mr. RABIEN : OW,what, in your opinion, would be the results if there
were to be no separation ithe church?
hlr. GERICK :EMr. President, it would cause a diçruption of the orderly
situation which now exists in the Dutch Reforrned Churches, and order-
iiness is of supreme importance to the Church. You cannot preach the
Gospel in a disordered society where there iç tension and friction. It
would also lead to an unfair cornpetition in the church organization which
would exclude many non-White mernbers from leadership and con-
sequently cause friction, frustration and even bitterness. In short, it
would nuliily the advantages which resulted from this particular system
in our Church.
Mr. RABIE:Now, does your Church apply the same principle of
separation in its rnissionary work in South West Africa?
Dutch Reformed Church has only recently commenced missionaryat the
work in South West Africa. However, the first independent Dutch Re-
formed Church was established in 1962and this church is growing very
rapidly.
The PRE-SIWEN W h:ere was it establiçhed?
RIr. GERICK :Windhoek, Rlr.President.
Mr. RABIE : r.Gericke, do you know whether the churchesoflonger
standing in South West Africaalso apply this principle of having separa-
tion in their churches?
hlr. GERICKE hl:r. President,am not in the position to give precise
details of their organization at top level but 1 know that olocalor
parish level the groups are served separately. The Evangelical Lvtheran
Church, for example, has developed a separate church for the non-
i1'hiteç parallel to thof the Whiteç. In this non-White church each
group is served in its own language, necessitating up to three successive
services in one church in Windhoek on a Sunday. The Hereros have
broken away from the other Christian churches of the Territory and have
formed their own so-called Uruwana Church, a church which contains
certain elements of ancestor worship, etc. The Finnish Lutheran Church
operates among a homogeneous people. The Ovainbo people have formed
the Ovambo-kavango Church; this church is wholly indigenous, has an
Ovambo Bishop at the head, 69 Ovambo hlinisters, 150Evangelists and
round about 150,000 adherents. The Roman Catholic Church followsthe
principleof serving its adherents in their own language.
andthe practice of the church had an influence on the currentç of thought
in South Africa with regard tothe racial situation?
Mr. GERICKE M:r.President, over a period ofseveral decades the Dutch
Reformed Churcheç in South Afnca have been very deeply involved in
race relations andas the result of this involvementnumerous conference
have been organized on a nation-wide basis, dozens of books dealing with
this subject have been writtenby churchmen and pronouncernents by
numerous church leaders, Roman Catholic and Protestant, English and
Afrikaans, have been published. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS II
The Dutch Reformed Church has, furthermort:, drawn its best theolo-
gians into commissions,which, without intermission during the past three
decades, had to carryout the specificcharge to study the racial question
in the light of the Scnptures and Christian practice and to advise the
church thereon. Every synod during the past 24 years has given earnest
thought to this matter and to the responsibility and duty of the rnother
church tourards the non-White churches in the country.
The church has, furthermore, CO-operatedvei-y closelgr.and remained
in touch with scientific andotherbodies whichhave made it their object to
study the racial problem. AUthese efforts by the church must havehad
a very substantial influence on the currents of thought in South Africa.
Mr. RAEIE: Now, can you Say, has the church, in the Iight of its
experience., actively sought to influence the State, in the formulation of
polMr. GER~CKE R:lrPresident, yes; to put itbriefly,the church has, on
many occasions, urged the Governrnent to foilow a policy of se arate
development. I am speaking of the Dutch Reformed Churches. Jhen 1
speak of the Government, 1 refer not only to the present Nationalist
Governmerlt but also to its predecessors.
hlr. RAI~IE:Mr. Gericke, your attention has been drawn to recent
resolutions adopted by the church in this regard and which are set out
in the Respondent's Rejoinder, V, pages 344-346. Have you seen those
passages? Do they correctly reflect what happened in that regard?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes, they do.
Mr. RABIE: 1sthere anything more you can çay or wish to Say in that
regard?
Mr.GERICKE:Mr. President, perhaps 1may referto just one resolution
quoted by the Respondent. At the 1950 Convention at Bloemfontein, the
Governmeiit was urged to appoint a special commission of experts to
investigate this whole problem. It is wellknown that as a result of the
Recommendations of this Commission-the su-called Tomlinson Com-
mission-certain progressive steps were taken in the Transkei and also
in ather connections.
Mr.RABIE:NOW,ïvhy, would you say, arethe churches, including the
Dutch Reformed Church, so intensely interested in the political probIem,
and, can you Say whether this interest is compatible with the spirituai
nature and the prophetic charge of the Christian church?
Mr. GERICKEM : r. President, firsof aI1, must draw attention to a
duty and the responsibilityofthe church to doeverything in its powerheto
improve human relations and to promote law and order, justice and
equity. Wlien the Dutch Reformed Church, in this broad context, takes
an interest. in matters of a politicai nature, she is acting in accordance
with the faith and the practice of aIl Christian churches.
Furthennore,the church's duty is emphasized in a country where race
relations are an issueNow, from the point of viewofthe Dutch Reformed
Church, the foliowing must be taken into account. In a country where
tension and friction are allowed to develop, the church can never escape
the consequences. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to preach the
Gospel in a disordered society. Therefore, for practical reasons, Mr.
President, the church must encourage a policy or policies, which, ac-
cording to the viewpoint of the church, tend to bring about a just and
peaceful CO-existence of thegroups and the races. .12 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Now, as 1 pointed out before, the Dutch Reformed Church beIieves that
the policy of separate developrnent offers the best solution.
Mr. RABIE: Mr. Gericke, your attention has been drawn to pages in
the pleadings, amongst others, the Respondent's Kejoinder, V, at pages
346 and following, which show that churchrnen have expressed con-
flicting viewsiiiregard to the policy of separate development. You have
seen those pages, have you not?
Mr. GERICKE: That is correct.
Rlr.RARIE: And do they refiect some of the views that have been
expresscd on this whole problem?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes, that is so.
hlr.RARIE:NOW,my final question is this. 1s the attitude of your
Church, as cxp;essed by churchmen, based on any peculiar theological
outlook or any scripturalinterpretation put in issue by other churchmen?
hlr. GERICKE: &Ir.President, no; it is basicaiiya matter of proper
appreciation or understanding of the facts of the total situation. Once it
is appreciated and accepted, as me firmly believe, that a policy of
integration will lead to-and 1 am speaking figuratively now+ither
suicide or homicide of certain groups and to a fatalset-back in the ad-
vancement of the country and its people, there can be no quarrelling
with the morality of a viewpoint that such consequences are to be
avoided at al1costs. 1think that it ilargely becausc of a different under-
standing of the situation that churchrnen have been led to express
divergent views on this particular policy and not because of a difference
of opinion on moral concepts and Christian ethics.
hlr. RABIE: Thank you. >Ir. President, that concludes the questions
1 wish to put to this witness.
The PRESIDENT:Very well Mr. Rabie. Mr. Gross?
fiIrGROSS:Bir. President, if the Court please, the Applicants would
appreciate the opportunitÿ to cross-examine tha witness. Would it be
convenient, to the Court. hlr. President, to dow me to gather my notes
together during a brief recess in order to address questions in orderly
and organized form to the witness, or does the President wish me to
continue now, which 1 would be glad to do?
The PRESIDI~NTh :lr. Cross, the Court is always willing to meet the
position of counsel,a s uch as is possibleIfthe Court adjourned now for
20 minutes ancl took the usual break during that period of time then,
when the Court resumed, it would expect the cross-examinntion to be
carried to a conclusion.If that is convenient the Court will now adjourn
for 20 minutes.
&Ir.G~oss: Thank you, Mr. President.
The PRESTDENTT :he hearing is resumed. Will the witness corne to the
podium? hfr. Gross?
Rlr. GROSS:Dominie Gericke, I shaU ask questions. with the Court's
permission, which under the circumstances wili, in some cases, reflect my
scribbled notes during the course of pour testimony. If1 misquote you,
or attribute to you comments or views which you have not intended to
express and which 1have misunderstood, then I would ask you please to
correct me. It will be inadvertent inany such case, as 1 do not have to
assure you.
If 1 understood, Dominie Gericke, in response to one of the final
questions addressed to you by learned counsel you referred to differences
of opinion which have arisen in, and 1suppose arnong, the churches and WITSESSES +4SD EXPERTS I3
church 1e;idcrship. You have attributed such differences which con-
ceivably exist to appreciations of fact rathcr than to differenccs of view
concerning moral or religious tenets or beliefs. Did 1 understand you
correctly in that respect, Sir?
Mr. GEI~ICKE l:es, Mr. Gross.
Ali.Grtoss: In order that the Courtmny havc the benefit of the record
and the attitudes of leaders in this very important field, which, as a
lapman, 1hesitate very much to engage in ünything that would resemble
a colloquy, 1should rcally likc to address questions to you fothe betiefit
of the Court's understanding of the matter. Isliould like to place before
you a nuniber of comments ailcpolicy statements on matters whicli are
covered within the scope of your testimony, with tlie request that you
would be good enough to explain whetlier you agrce or disagree, and
elaborate where you wish, subject to the Court's permission, in order that
the Court may fully understand the purport of your testimony and the
facts which I shall üttempt to elicit with regard tliereto. In the first place,
may 1 ask you, Sir, whether jiou can aclvise the Coiirt concerniiig the
approximate number of non-Whites who are members of, or profess
adherence to, the Dutch Refornicd Church on the one hand, and other
Christian churches on the other-the principal churches 1 am referring
to in the latter connection? Could you explaiii the relative nirrnher of
adherents in those cases?
Xr. GEIIICKE:Alr. President, the total number of adhereiits of the
Dutch Reformed Churches-tliat is in the Republic and outside the
Republic-is about a million and a quarter.
Mr. G~oss: Did I hear you Say amillion and aqunrter?
Mr. GERIGKE: Yes, in and outside thc Republic, that istlie total
number of adherants.
Mr.GROSS: Perhaps for tlic sake ofclarity, could 1,with thc Coiirt'ç
permissiori, read to you these figures, which are from the 1951 census,
which set forth thc number of non-White (under the classification here
of "Bantu") adherents to certain clurches inthe Republic? The citation,
&Ir.President, is from Union Statistics fo50 years (that isI~IO to 1960),
published in thc Union of South Africa by the Bureau of Census and
Statiçticsat Pretoria, and the refereiice is to page A.29 of that voltirne,
and the figures which 1 shall mention are as folloi~~: ith respectto the
ArcderduitsGerefovm~erdK eerk (that is, theDutch Keformed Cliurcli), in
1951 ,n round numbers. 300,000 (the number here is 297,000 plus); the
Anglican Church, in round numbers, jSo,ooo; the hlethodist Church, in
round numbers, r million; theRoman Catholic Church, in rouiid numbers,
qGo,ooo. On the bnsis of such information as you may have, do you have
aiiy comment with respect to the extent, if any, to whicli these figureor
the ratios have changed sincc rggr?
Jlr. GEIZICKE &:IrYresident, are those figures for Bantu people or the
Coloured people?
Mr. GROSS :cs, Sir.
Rir.GERICKE :or the Colourcd people?
&Ir. G~oss: These are Bantu.
Mr. GERICKE :ccause the adherants of the Dutch Keformed Church
among the Coloured people alone is336,000 aiid I was giving the total
figures of Coloureds and Bantus.
Mr. G~oss:1 am sorry if Iniisled you.Thcse figures which 1have read
from this page of the report arc under the heading "Religion-Baotu".I4 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
These are Bantu-figures, as the classification is in the census. Do you have
any comment with respect to these figures? Do thcy, so far asyou are
aware at the present tirne, correspond to the ratio of Bantu and non-
White African rnernbership in these various churches?
hlr.GERICKE: Mr. President, 1have information that during the past
Ij years the adherants of theDutch ReforrnedChurch amongst the Bantu
people doubled itsel; especially dunng the past5 to 7years there was a
substantial increase of the adherants of the Dutch Reformed Church.
Rlr.G~oss: So that that would be roughIy now, instead of 300,000 . ..
Mr. GERICKEI:t would be more.
Mr. GROS SRoughly 6oo,ooo?
Mr. GERICKE: Yes.
Mr. GROSSD : O you happen to know, Sir, whether there has been a
similar increaseofmembership on the partof Bantu in the other churches
1 have mentioned-the Anglican, the Rlethodist or the Catholic?
nfr. GERICKEM : r. President1 have not got any figures on the Roman
Catholic Church, but 1 know that there was a very slight increase, I
believe, ofI or2 per cent. in the hlethodist Church. There was a slight
decrease in the Presbyterian Church. The only Church that doubled its
numbers was the Dutch Reformed Church.
tions here, we start with an estimated, let us Say, 600,ooo Bantu adhe-
rants tothe N.G.K., that isthe Dutch Reformed Church; approximatel ,
Say, 600,ooo or similar number in the Anglican Church; approximate y r
1 million in the Methodist Church and approximately half-a-million in
the Roman Catholic Church. Now would you explain to the Court. if it is
within your knowledge, Dominie Gericke, what the policy and practice
of the Roman Catholic Church is with respect to the separation on racial
groünds in services?
Mr. GERIGKE 1:am not weli acquainted with the Roman Catholic
Church in South Africa. l had discussions with a Roman Catholic priest
and I know that in South West Africa the Roman Catholic Church serves
the different racial groups according to language. They have different
services for people of different language groups.
Mr. GROSST :hat is a matterof servicing those who speak one language
and not another. In respect of the racial rather than linguistic distinc-
tions, do you know whether it is correct ornot that the Roman Catholic
Church in South Africa has not established separate churches on a racial
basis? 1s that correct?
hlr. GERICK :EO,it is against the nature of the Roman CatholicChurch,
as you know. It is one church dl over the world.
Mr. Gnoçs :And with respect to the Anglican Church in South Africa
and in South West Africa, if you are familiar with that as weli, can you
indigenous churches?er or not the Anglican Church has established
hlr. GERICKE N:O,they have not, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSS C:an you tell the Court what the practice or policy of the
Anglican Church is-if it has a policy in this respect-withregard to the
members of different races attending the sarne services?
Mr. GERICKM E:r. President, in a fewplac(and I am referring now to
Cape Town and to one Anglican Church in Johannesburg) they have
multi-racial services, but in many places theyhave separate services for
the separate communitieç. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 15
Mr. G~oss:So far a$you are acquainted with the officia1church policy
of the Anglican Church, are the policies thesame as or similar to those
which govern the Dutch Reformed Church with respect to separate
churches based upon racial distinction?
Mr. GERICKE: NO, hlr.President. The proclaimed policy is not the
same. The proclaimed policy of the Anglican Church is that of a multi-
racial church.
The PRESIDENT H:OWdo they carry it into effect?
Mr. GERICKE M:T.President, it all depends. There are places-1 am
referring now to places like Port Elizabeth, Ecast London, Durban,
Bloemfontein-ivhere they have separate services for the non-Mite
rnembers of their church.
&Ir.G~oss:Would you Say,Dominie Gericke, that that is a matter of
principleor policy of the church, or is that a matter of practicalex-
perience, as the case may be?
Mr. GERICKE M:r. President, itis not a principle of poky of the
church, it ia matter of pracficttl experience,aI sec it.
Mr. GROSS:The testimony which you gave in Court related, if 1
understood it correctly, Sir, to the frictions and tensions which nlight
anse, could arise, or perhaps have arisen, as a result of multi-racial
participation in services or in the same church. 1s that a correct version
oi your testimony, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE M:r.Prcsident, could that question be repeated?
Mr. GROSS 1:would certainly be delighted to repeat it, Rlr. President,
with your permission. The question was whether 1 correctly paraphrase
your testimony when I say that 1 understood you tostatethat tension
and friction have arisen or could arise by reason of participation by
different races, in the same çervices or mernbeishiin thesame church.
1s that correct?
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is correct, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: And that 1further understood you to testify that iispart
of thefunction and a necessity for ille churctopreach the gospel in an
atmosphere free of tension andfrustration-that was your testimonÿ was
it, Sir? Couldyou explain for the benefit of the Court and to clarify this
very important question, what the churches, the Roman Catholic Church
and also the Anglican Church, what their reaction is or attitude toivard
arguments of this sort with respect to establishing separate serviceoi
question, Sir?hes in their own communions-do you understand my
Jfr. GERICKEW : hat their arguments are ...
and tensionWarisethrough multi-racial serviceorcchurches which impedeation
the mission of the church?
hlr. GERICKE T:here is s wide division of opinion in the Anglican
Church.
Bir. GROSS :here is awide division withiri the Anglican Church?
Bir.GERIGKE: Oh yes, within the church.
Mr, GROSS :sthat division based upon or does it reflect any moral or
ethical considerations?
Mr. GËRICXE1 : am afraid 1 am not in a position to answer that
question.
Jlr. GROSS: 1 ~viUcorne back if 1 may to this same question in respect
of the Dutch Reformed Church, of which, of course, you are a distin-I6 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
guished leader and 1 would however, first, i1 may, açk with respect to
another aspect of your testimony-the reference \vas made by counsel
in his questioning to you as to whether or not the Dutch Reformed
Church has sought to influencethe State to foUoivthe policy of separate
development or otherwise influence the State in its policy in racial mat-
ters;1 believe that your answer was that it is,indeed, the duty of the
church to influence the State and you referred, if 1 understood you
correctly, to the question of separate deve1opmt:nt and the support of
the Dutch Reformed Church, of separate development as a policy and
the influence brought to bear by the Church, or sought to be brought to
bear bv the Church on theStateto further the policy of separate develop-
ment. 1s this ricorrect versionof your testirnony?
Mr. GEKICKE Y:CS.
hlr. GROSS: In connection with this question of the policy of the
Church and State regarding separate development, 1 refer to the Re-
joinder, V,page 344, which is a page in the Rejoinder to mhich counsel
for Respondeiit ha drawn your attention and with which pou said, 1
befieve, that you were familiar.I cal1attention particularly to the April
1950 conference which is referred to on that page of the Rejoinder, in
svhich a statement ismade by an author reporting on the conference,
Dr. Visser 'tHooft of the World Council of Churches, with regard to the
view ofthe Federal Mission Council in April rgso ntthe Bloemfontein
conference, to which you have referred in your testimony-the following
statement, whicli 1 shaU read from that page of the Rejoinder:
"It was emphasized that the rights of every man were to be
respected and that permanent subordination of one group to another
should not esist in any realm of iife. The only way in which these
airns could ultimately be realized was by total separation, ~vhich
would rnean the conversion of the native areas into true homelands
of the Bantu with full opportunity for development and self-govern-
ment and the replacing of the Bantu in the present economic
structure, which would entai1 great sacrifice on the part of the
European." (V, p. 344.)
I should like to askyou,Sir,whether the doctrine or policy of scparate
development which you have testified the Dutch Reformed Church
supports and seeks to influence the Government to dcvelop, to promote.
envisages, as tfiis resolution implies, total geogr;y)hical separatiand
the removal at great sacrifice of the non-Whites from the White areas
and the establishment 01separate political and economic entities. Is tlïis
the doctrine of separate development which theDutch Reformed Church
espouses-total separation of the races, as refiected in this statement
from the Rejoinder which 1have read?
&Ir.GERICKE : r. President, that particular conference was a confer-
ence of theDutch Reformed Churches and different other organizations-
the 1950 conference, is that correct?
ùir. GROSS :es, Sir.
hLrGERICK :TheDutch Reformed Church has never to my knowledge
made a proclamation about total separation. There is no such doctrine
in the Dutch Reformed Church as far as 1 know. 1 have been testifying
about separate churclies and the influence of the church on the Govern-
ment for separation but there is no doctrine or proclamation of or by the
Dutch Refornled Church for total separation and 1 am not a political
expert to know whether this is viable or not. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I7
&Ir.G~oss: Weil, I think the Court wiU appreciate, Sir, that you are
not here as a political or econoniic expert-thequestion is to establish to
thebest of Ourability for the benefit of the Court, the notion, the concept
of the doctrine of separate development which your Church is espousing
and seeking to influence the Government on--in that context and for
that purpose, not as an economist or as a politician...
Mr. GER~CKE : am Sorry.
Mr. G~oss: If total separation iç not envisaged, what is the policy of
separate development-how would it bedefineclby the Church in respect
of the question we have discussed?
&Ir.GERICKEM : r.President, the Church has had a certain experience
in its OWII work and the Church's experience isthat if you establish a
church Say for the Coloured people, or for the Hantu people in the
Transkei or for the JZalavis in AIalavi-ifyou do tliat and you give these
people the opportuiiity to run their own church, this engenders a spirit
of self-respect and it takes away occasions of friction and you get order-
liness in the church. Now the Church has passed this principle on, if 1
may put it that way, to the State in advocating this policy. Wow this is
to bc worked out is very difficult for me to Say, as 1 said 1 am not a
politician.
Mr. G~oss: 'To avoid niisunderstanding is your answer intended to
Say that the only respect in which the Church seeks to influence State
support or promotion of separate development is in the religious life of
the nation-did I understand you correctly?
Mr. GERICKE : o, also in tlie political life.
Mr. CROSST : herefore this is the aspect of the matter on whic1 would
seek elucidation for the benefit of the Court-in wliat respect does the
Church, the Dutch Reformed Church, seek to influence the Government
with respect to political or cconomic separate dcvelopment, ifthe Church
has that intention at al]. Do you understand my question, Sir? Would
you explain what the vicwpoint of the Dutch Reformed Churcli is with
respect to separate development in the political field, let 11sSay, by way
of taking an example, the proniotion ofa franchise for the non-\Vhites
-if you wish to take that esnmple-take any other example you wish, if
you do not wish to take that one at the moment.
&Ir. GERICKE: &Ir. President,I am afraid 1 do not understand this
question-what esactly does counsel want me ...
The PRESIDEKT1 : can understand that you caiinot ansu7er the ques-
tion, it is a little long, Mr. Gross, is not the question youare seeking
to have answered: what policy views have beeii conveyed by the Dutch
Reformed Church to the partiesin power in South Africa?
hlr. GROSS: Yes, Sir, with respect to political aspects.
hIr. GEIZICKE :hank you, Mr. Prcsident. At that particular conference
thc Dutch Reformed Church in conjunction with other bodies,F.A.K.
and S.A.B.R.A. and other organizations, said in effect tothe Government
that the confercncc belicves that apolicy of separate development is the
olily jiist solution to this pnrticular problem. This particular conference
also said 1:hatintegrntion \vas no solutioand just passcd this on to the
Government that, it was the opinioii, the conviction of this conference,
that in a policy of separate development theri: would be ample oppor-
etc.ty for aUsections to develop to the utmost, politically, economically,
XIr.G~oss: Sols.,the question that1 asked which Ishdl statc briefly-18 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
with regard to the political aspects of separate developrnent, has the
Dutch Refarmed Church endorsedor promoted any poficy or point of
view ?
Mr. GERICKE T:he Dutch Reformed Church has passed on a principle
to the Government but not any particulars.
Mr. GROSSN : orv therefore, if 1understand you correctly, the Dutch
Reformed Church as such has not taken a public position with re ard to
such matters as participatiobyindividuals, non-White as well as Vhite,
in the franchise, in the voting rights of the country-hasthe Church
taken a position publicly with respect to that question?
Mr. GERICKET :he Church has said, 1 think it was at that same confer-
enceor 1think it was the1945 conference or 1956.1 am not sure now, to
the Government, that no people or race which is worth its keep can be
satisfied wvithoutany political rights, therefore the Government must see
development,so that they can develop tothe full, also politicaliy.ate
hlrG~oss: Now with respect to the parts of the country in which the
Whites and non-ilrhites both live and work in the same economy-letus
Saythe urban problern as it içsometimes called-has the Dutch Reformed
Church taken a position with respect to whether or not the non-imites
in the urban areas shoulhave a vote or direct voice in the Government?
blr. GERICKE I: the Government, no.
Mr. GROSS:It has not taken a position with respect to that. With
respect to the econornic aspects of separate development, has the Dutch
Reformed Church taken a position with regard to, let us say specifically,
theJob Reservation Acts-it has, you say?
Mr. GERICK :The Dutcli Reformed Church-there was a declaration
by a number of leaders-al1 the Moderators and Secretaries and Assessors
of the different synods-a dechration in 1961, 1 believe-and these
leaders referred to job reservation, as f1can remember, and told the
Government that this should be carried out with the least possible-1
am looking for the word, &Ir.President-injusticis not the right word-
infringement on the rights of people1 think Iam . ..
Mr. GROSSP :araphrasing. perhaps?
Mr. GERICK :Yes, paraphrasing.
blr.G~oss: But the sense of it was that the Job Reservation Act
legiçlation should be applied, but with justice?
Mr.GERICKE Y:es.
Mr. GROSST :here was no position taken, was there, or was therea
position taken, not necessarily at that conference but at any timin
recent history or currently against the principle of job reservation?
Mr. GROSSKE:sAthere a difference of view among Church leaders in the
Dutch Reformed Church regarding job reservatioii as to a position which
the Church should take; is there a difference of view; are some in favour
of it, some opposed to it, among the Church leadership?
Mr. GERICK :About taking up a position?
Mr. G~oss: Yes.
Mr. GERICKEI:res, 1 would imagine there are some of the rninisters
who think that the Church should take up aposition; 1 do not want to
name these people, but I know them.
&Ir.GROSS: IVell, 1 will perhaps name one or two in due course, but
1 was anxious to obtain your view, if you care to express it, for the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 19
benefit othe Court with respect to this matter-your own personal view.
Mr. GEKICKE:My persona1 view?
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir.
Mr. GERICKE:Mr. President, 1 am not in a position to judge aii
particulars; as1 said before1 am not a political expert, but wha1 know
is this: that rights of people must be protected; the rights of people, Say,
in Ovamboland, in the Transkei, must be protecied; the same applies to,
Say, Johannesburg or Cape Town-that is one point. For example, I
know that many of the White traders, people who are doing certain jobs
in the Tricnskei-cannot go on with that now, because those jobs are
reserved for the people in the Transkei. 1 think the same principle
applies also, SayinJohannesburg or Cape Town, the mines or in factories;
it is a question of certaiprivileges andrights that should be protected
on both sides.
Mr. GROSS D:Oyou mean, Sir-there has been sorne testimony on the
part of earlier witnesses to the effect that the protection of, let us say,
the Whites in the White economy, so-called, iii the South West Africa
Police Zorie justifies, or indeed perhaps requires, restrictions upon the
freedom or promotion of non-Whites, and that-I think the word
"reciprocity" was used to describe it in the course of questions-by
reciprocity White persons will be deprived of freedoms or subject to
certain restrictions in the non-Whiteareas. This is the doctrine to which
you refer, Sir-the policy ?
Mr. GEE~ICK That is right, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSSN : OW,with respect to those non-FVhites who are essential
to the economy and rernain in the multiracial area, do you apply the
same doctrine of reciprocity, and if so, on what basis?
Mr. GERICKE :re you referring now to the ...?
Mr.,GROSS1 : am referring to the non-Fihites who spend their lives in
the so-cded White economy, and who live there and work there, are
born and die there.
Mr. GERICKE :ow Mr. President, one must look atthe whole picture,
the total yicture; the idea is to eventualiy develoal1 the Native areas
so that therewillbe ample opportunity for the Hantu in the Bantu areas,
ample opportunity-that isthe goal that we have inview, and when that
building is cornpleted it stands to reason that there will be protection of
the Bantu people in thoçe areas, the sarne as there is protection in the
White arens.
Mr. G~oss: TIiat, if 1 understand you, assumes total separation of
White and non-White; that assumes ultimate total separation of White
and non-White-is my understanding correct of your answer?
Mr. GEKICKE : Not necessarily.
Mr. G~oss: It has been testified, and1 do not mean, Mr. President,
to draw the witness into the area of economic life, butI am anxious to
establish the bounds of the Church doctrine to which the witness has
testif. . .n clarifying this issue of what is meant by separate develop-
ment
The PRESIDENTA :re you asking the Church doctrine, not the witness's
personal views, then?
Mr. G~oss: The Church doctrine at this point, Sir; 1had asked the
witness's persona1 view; IIam now addressing myself, if 1may, Sir, to
the Church doctrine with respect to the question of total separation,
which pou. testified was not the objective, as1:understood it, and this20 SOUTH \%'ESTAFRlCA
position of the Church's with regard to the non-\irhites who are not
during their lifetime to be expected to return to or go to a homeland;
lvhat, if angthing, has the Church to Say about the subjection of that
individual or those individuals to the restrictions upon the freedams,
specifically the Job Reservation Act?
Mr. GERICKE:What fias the Church got to Say on thnt?
Mr. G~oss: l'es, Sir-if anything.
Mr. GEIIICKB N:O, 1do not know of any resolution by the Church on
that.
Mr. GROÇS:The Church hasnot, so far asyou are aware, Sir, advcrted
to or taken a position with respect to this rnatter-that is correct?
&Ir.GERICKE:Not as far as 1 am aware.
hir.GROSS 1:15threspect to your persona1 opinion on the matter, what
is your view, ifyou wish to expound it to the Court, with regard to this
matter-are you clear, Sir, what 1 am referring to?
Mr. GERICKE:What rny view is on the Bantu people in the cities, ..!
air. GROSS:Being subject to job resen7atioii or other restrictions upon
their abilityto rise above a certain imposed ceiliiig.
Mr. GEKICKE L:et me put itthis way. hIr. President, asIsee it, if this
policy of separate development is taken to the final goal-wliat the final
goal might be 1 do not know, but if it is taken to the final goal, then it
means that in a certain or certain parts of South Africa full rights and
privileges will bc grünted, say, to the Bantu pcoplc, and of course those
privileges will be protected in those parts, and in tliose parts which belong
to the White people certain privileges will bc protected for the White
people; that is as 1 see it.
Afr. GROSS:SOthat, if 1 may, with the President's permission, press
SOU just one more notch, with respect to the inclividual lvho by the
hypothesis of my question lives, works and dies in the so-called \Vhite
economy and is subject throughout his life to the restrictions which we
have mentioned, do you, or do you not, have a personal view with respect
to that situation?
air.GERICKE: MC. President, al1 depends-does thisquestion mean ad
infinitum?
Mr.GROSS :iiring his lifetimeyes.
Rlr. GERICKEF :or the future as far as we can see, if you mean that?
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GERICKE A S Isaid, 1 am not a statesman, but 1 am going to try
to answer this question, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: l'hank you, Sir.
>Ir. GERICKEO : nce the Bantu or Bantustans have bcen developed to
the full and tlierisa homeIand for the Bantu people, the different Bantu
peoples of South Africa, and things are settled, and there is tliis mutual
understanding, 1 think it will be much easier to make some of these
regulations less offensive, if that is the word. You see, we are bus. erecting
a building, and lvhen you ercct a building you have got thave scaffolding
to finish this building, but when this building is completed the scaffolding
will be rernoved, and 1 think much of the scaffolding will be removed in
the near futlire.
Mr. GROSS:CouId you explain the necessity for these restrictions during
what we may for the sake of this colloquy between us cal1 an indefinite
transitional period, if youwiII accept that phrase; cati you explain, Sir,
or how do you cxplnin in terms of your answer the necessity for these WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 21
restrictions upon the advancement of the non-White in the area of the
White economy?
Rh. GEKICKE It is very difficult to Sa1do iiot know, but 1can think
of one reason. you know we have about a million immigrants, many of
them illicit, from territories al1 around South Africa swarming to the
cities. Now, you can just imagine, if there is no protection, you wgeta
situation of strife and tension whiçh would make it impossible for any
government to keep order in the country.
Mr. G~oss: These immigrants are LVhiteimniigrants?
hlr. GERICKE :O.
Mr. G~oss: 'i'heyare non-IVhite immigrants?
Mr. GEKICKE T:hey are non-\.\rhite immigrants.
hlr.GROSS :ould you explain, Sir, iwhat respect i~vouldbe difficult
to keep oider ifthese immigrants or other non-White persons who had
livcd there a long time, let us say, were free to rise on the economic
ladder according to their innate capacity?
Mr. GERICKE :an 1, RIr. President, if the Court will allow me, ask,
can you imagine a position, Say in Bdgium cirStvitzerland, a million
immigrants from any othercountry who are shoved on the labourmarket
in, Say, Switzerland, people who corne from other countries and who
perhaps aie willing to do certain jobs, and would have a free choice-sa~f,
for example, in the factories-and people are driven out of their jobs111
that particular city or in that particular countras a result of this influs
of çay a million labourers from other placescaiiyou imagine what ~vould
happen? Well, 1 cannot; 1 am sorry.
&Ir.GROÇS:May 1 invite you now to transpose the question to South
iilest Africa, which of course as you know is the subject of these pro-
ceedings. In South \Veçt Africa, it has been testified and isundenied in
the record, that Job lieservation Acts and policies prevail as in the
Kepublic. Are you familiar enough with the situation in South \Vat
Africa to comment, from your personal point of view and analysis as a
leading churchman, tlieologian, on the restrictions which are imposed
upon the freedom of economic advancement in South West Africa,
imposed, that is to Say, upon the inhabitants of the Territory, non-White
inhabitants?
hlr.Gairlc~s: 1 do not know any particulars about South West Africa
as faras the economy is concerned.
&Ir.Gxoss: Does the Dutch Reformcd Churcli, so far as you are aware,
Sir, have any policy tvith respect to the separate development in South
1jTestAfrica?
Mr. GEIIICK EPronounce any policy ?
hlr. CROSS Y:es, with respect to the policy of separate development in
South LVest Africa, has the Dutch Reformed Cliurch issued any pro-
nouncements on that subject, or taken a position on it?
Mr. GEI~ICKE N:O,as 1 have said before, the Uutch Reformed Cliurch
has passed on a general principle, nothiilg more, not rnentioning South
West Africa, or South Africa, or Transvaal, or Natal for that rnatter.
Mr. G~oss: 1 should like, if 1 may, now to turn to a statement with
regard to this matter byDr. Ben Marais. Are you familiar with the career
and works of Dr. Uen Marais, Dominie Cericke?
Mr. GERICK EHe is a persona1 friend ofmirie.
Mr. G~oss:1 will refer to his workwellknown 1 believe it isThe Two
Faces of Africa, published in Pietermaritzburg in rg64, and read, uith22 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
the Court's permission, the following from pa66 of Dr. Marais' book:
"In conclusion, 1 wiçh to stress to what degree the possibility of
making separate development a workable hypothesis poses a very
real moral problem. [And then Dr. Marais goes on to say] Today
we in South Africa are wont to justify al1 forms of discrimination
against certain groups, like job reservation, etc., on the ground that
it inot unfair because the Coloured groups wiIlultimately enjoy al1
these privileges and rights in their own areas as temporary sojour-
ners in our midst they are not really part of White South Africa
and cannot claim these rights. They are not citizens but are only
allowed in tosel1their labour outside the homelands but, and this
has become aseriouç matter of conscience to maninSouth Africa,
if we are convinced that nîillions of Africans, for instance, are arnong
us to stay, and many were born here, the question anses, may we
still condone blatant discriminatory rneasures likejob reservation on
the strength of a political philosophy that, in terms of actual trends,
shows no possibility of being reahed?"
1should like to ask you, if you wish, Sir, to comment on that statement.
Mr. GERICKE 1:think 1 have commented on that a little while ago
when I said that adjustments wili have to be made in the future. What
thoçe adjustments will be 1am not in a position to Say.Adjustmentç will
have to be made in the future but 1 can see r<:asons for the present
system, protection, etc.,as 1 have said before.
Mr. G~oss: You have, I think, Sir, used the term "offensive", in
quotation marks. Would you agree with Dr. Marais in the description of
job reservation as discriminatory, blatant?
Mr. GERICKE N:O,I will not agrwith him.
Mr. GROSS :Vould you regard it as discriminatory?
Mr. GERICKE It: al1depends on what you mean by "discnminatory".
Mr. GROSSW : ould you care to define the term yourself, Sir?
Mr. GERICK :EMust 1define it?
Mr. G~oss: Not if you do not wish to.
Rlr. GERICKE W:ell, 1 have got to discriminate in my own house, in
my own home, between the younger and older children. In that sense,
job reservation and many of these regulations, are discriminatory.
Mr. GROSS D:oes the fact that it is impoçed have any bearing in your
judgment on whether it is blatant or not, or unfair o?The fact that
to the question in your mind?on another, does that have any relevance
hlr.GERICKE B:ut is there any way to work out a system or a pattern
of life other than imposing it?
Mr. GROSS: In that context there have been discussions, if I am not
mistaken, and 1 am sure that you will be quick to correct me if 1 am
wrong, as to the necessity perceived by some of the church leaders for
consultation between the groups in the determination of the cornmon
destinies1s that correct, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE Y:es.
&Ir.G~oss: Has the Dutch Reformed Church taken a position with
respect ta such inter-group consultation on a political, economic or other
level?
Mr. GERICKE H:as the Dutch Reformed Church taken part in it au?
Mr.GROSST :aken a position with respect to the desirability or other- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 23
wise of such conçultations among various population groups, with respect
to woriurig out the economic and political and social pattern of the
country of South Africa:as thellutch Reformed Churchtaken a position
on thai?
Mr. GIIRICKE T:he Dutch Reformed Chusch knows that there is
consultation.
Blr.GROSS Ihat forrndoessuch consultation take at the present tirne?
Couldyou give the Court anexample ortwo, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE W :ell, there are the Bantu authorities, Banru Councils,
in the urban areas, and 1 know of many occasions where the bfinister
had consultations with these people, with these Counciis. It has been
reported in our papers week after week.
Mr. G~oss: May 1, in thisconnection, read to you, with the Court's
permission, an excerpt from the book by Dr. 13.B. Keet, who 1 assume
is well known to you, Sir.
Mr. GERICKE H:e was myprofessor, hlr. President.
Mr. GROSSP :rofessor Keet's book is entitled Wktther So~th Africa?,
published in Stellenbosch in1956, by the University Yublishers and
Booksellers Limited. 1refer in this connection to the following comment
by Dr. Keet on page 95 of his book and would invite your comment if
you wish to give it for the Court's benefit. He says:
"Allparties must have a share in these talks [anhe is referring
to tatks about the general development the economicand political
social system and life of the Republic], not only the \mite political
pa~ties but as broad a representation of non-%mites as possiblTo
draft a plail that \vil1meet with the approval of the majority of the
population there must be CO-operation£rom those who are rvithout
doubt most closely concerned. llrithout their CO-operationthere can
be no lasting racial peace."
Do you agree with Professor Keet that there shodd be consultations
among White and non-Ihite political parties, looking towards the social
and economic life?
Mr. GERICKE Y:es, 1agree ~lth the principle of consultation.
The PRESIDENT D:id Professor KeetSay in that quotation that there
should be consultation between the White poIiticrtl parties and politi,al
parties which were non-White?
Mr. GROSSY :es, if 1 may read the sentence again, Mr. President, for
clarification-doyou wish me to, Sir?
The PRESIDENT Yes please.
MT. GROSS" :Al1parties must have a sharein these talks, dot onIy the
White political parties butas broad a representation of non-Whites as
poThe PRESIDENT It:does not Say "non-\mite political parties" does it?
would you distinguish between non-White political parties and othere,
repreçentatives of non-Whites for the purpose of the consultations for
which yoii have expressed a sympathy?
Mr. GERICKE M:ust Xdistinguish betureen?
Mr. G~oss: Would you distinguish between non-imite political parties
and non-White groups or individualç? Would you distinguish between
political parties and other forms of non-White representation in the
consultations for which you have expressed sympathy?24 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
air.GER~CK E :s. am in sympathy ivith the phcipie of consultation.
How it is to be carried out 1 do not know. If it can be political parties,
why not?
air. GROSS:There is no reason to distinguish between the two so far
as you can see, Sir?
afr.GERICKE: XO, no reason for distinguishing.
Iiir.G~oss: Thank you. 1 would like to invite your attention now to
another problem which lias emerged from the record and has been the
subject of testimony, and that is the question of migratory labour. Are
you familiar at all, Sir, with the problem of rnigratory labour in South
\ilest Africa as we11as in South Africa?
Air.GERICKB M:ore in Soutli ilfrica.
hlr. G~oss: Do you know, Sir, whether the Dutch Reformed Church
has taken a public position with respect to the social and other problems
which arise froin rnigratory labour?
Mr. GEHICKE T:he Dutch Reformed Church has brought it to the
attention of theGovernment that the migratory labour causes disruption
of family life.
lilr.GKOSS They have merely brought that to the attention of the
Governmeiit, you Say, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE : es, we have.
Nr. GROSSH :as there been any comment for or against that?
hlr. GERICKE:Yes, there has.
Rlr. GROSS : nd is it negative or affirmative, the attitude of the
Ctiurch?
Jlr.GERICKE Do you want me to gointo the problem as a whole, hlr.
President? Then 1 can give the arguments for and against.
>Ir. G~oss: May I focus this point because naturally we want to con-
serve your energies and the Court's time.
The PRESIDENT:But the witness is entitled to anSIver the question,
IIr.Gross.
Jlr.CROSS 1:thought tiehad asked one.
The PRESIDEST 1don't think he did. Your question on the Church's
attitude was "1s it negative or affirmative?" And he seeks then to give
a response to that. Ifhe desires so to do let him doSO.
Jir. GROSS:AS the President correctly admonishes me, would you
please answer the question if that is your desireSir?
Mr. GERICKI::Well, Mr. President, first of all, let us move out of South
Africa fora while. Ifa man has to come from ftaly to, Say, Amsterdam,
to work in Amsterdam, as many Italians are doing at the present mo-
ment, and he has to leave his wife in Italy, naturally the Church is
worried about that situationNow the çame thing ishappening in South
Africa; inany people come from the territories, but not only from the
territorieswithin the boundaries of South Africa but also from Basiito-
land, Swaziland, Bechuanaland, and also frorn the Rhodesias, many of
them come to the cities to find work. Naturally the Church is worrjed
about the position of these people who corne from the territori?~ outside
South Africa and in South Afnca when they have to leave their families
behind. But this is not onlya South African problem, it is a problem in
many countries today. Tt is a choice between two evils. Either you have
to tellthese people that you are notgoing to give them work in the cities
or you will have to find the housing for these people who corne to the
cities for ïvork.l'ou cannot subject the people to shanty towns and WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 25
everything that Aowsfrom that way of life, so you will have to build the
houses.
During the past IO years, the Government has been erecting houses
for Bantu people in the cities for more than 400 million rand, at the
rate of $Ohouses per day: it is very difficult to cope with the position.
More and more of tliese people are allowed to bring their families with
them ifthey get the houses. But this is the dilemma: it is South Africa's
dilemma at the present moment; it is also the dilemma of other countries,
as you know.
Mr. G~oss: In respect of the migant labour problem and policy in
both South Africa and South West Africa, 1 should like again,if I may
with the Court's permission, to read a brief extract froDr. Keet's ~vork
which 1 have quoted, this from pages 68-69, in which, on the subject of
migrant labour, Dr. Keet says as follows:
"One of the greatest evils in the broad context of our society
arising out of Ourpolicy of apartheid is the system of migrant labour.
Under the pressure of economic factors, large numbers of non-
Whites are forced to go into the service of the Whites and, in this
way, they have become an essential part of our economy in industry,
mining and agriculture. Employed originally by the gold mines,
migrant labour has come to be regarded as an essential part of the
future development of industry within the general pattern of
apartheid. Since no non-White rnay have rights or privileges in
White areas, he has no chance of acquiring a permanent home and
he can be regarded only asa temporary migrant labourer who must,
in due course, return to his own territory, whether the reserves or
elsewhere. [And, then,1conclude the quote] In this Ray, the millions
who are already working among the Whites are being turned into a
non-White proletariat living under most unnatural conditions with-
out the pnvileges of home or marriecl life."
The testimonywith regard toSouth West Africais that, on the average,
approximately 30,000 migrant labourers are at present in South IVest
Africa. That is undenied in the record and appears in the Odendaal
Commission report at pages 39 and 41.
With respect to Dr. Keet's comments as to what he describesas "the
evil of migrant labour as a result of apartheid", to refer to his language,
do you care to comment either with respect to the position ofthe Dutch
Reformed Church or asto your own personal views, or both?
hlr. GERXCK E :. President,1 do not agree with Professor Keet that
migrant labour is part andparcel of thepolicy of apartheid.
Mr. G~oss: You disagree with this premisc?
Mr. GERICKE: Yes. It is not part and parce1 of apartheid.
Mr. GROSS:Would you care to address yourself to that portion of his
comment which relates to the twofactors: (1)that the migratory labourer
may not and does not bring his family with him, and (2)that he is de-
prived of rights and privileges in the area whoçe economy he serves.
labour system and oitçworkings? both, ofthose aspects of the migrant
Mr. GERICKE:May I comment on the~none ai a time, hIr. President?
The PRÉSIDENT O:ne at a tirne.
Mr. GERICKE : Would yoü please repeat the tirst ?
Mr. GROSST :he first question is with respect to the consequences,26 SOUTH WEST AFR~CA
social, political, and, above all, moral in the context of the church or your
persona1 view, with respect to the enforced separation of the farnily
during the period while the migrant labourer is serving, in this case of
South West Africa, in the Police Zone.
Mr. GERICKEN : OW,is the separation of the family, Mr. President (if
1may ask the question because Ido not know about South West Afnca-
1 know the position in South Africa), forced upon these labourers?
Mr. GROSSI:Vell, 1 do not want to get into an argument with the
witness. The undisputed facts on record (1 think, &Ir.President, there
can be no question about this)-on the record and in the testimony-are
that the migrant labourer from the north entenng the Police Zone or
southern sector, asit is called, may not bring his family with him.
The PRESIDENT &:Ir.Rabie, do you desire to address the Court?
Mr. RABIE:Mr. President, 1regret that 1 feel that 1 must object to
this line of cross-examination. The witness has said repeatedly that he
isnot au laitwith conditions in South West Africa. He is now being cross-
exarnined on economic conditions in South West Africa. 1would suggest
to my learned friend that he puts his questions to somebody who pro-
fesses to know something about the economy of South West Afnca and
1 feel that 1 must point out that rny learned friend is putting those
questions when the witness has already told him that the system can be
of choosing the lesserof two evils. Mr. President, in my submission, this
can really lead nowhere. What can be the value of examining a person
on an economic question when he starts off by çaying that he knows
nothing of the economy of the country?
The PRESIDENM T:r. Gross. The witness is qualified as an expert in
relation to the attitude of the Dutch Reformed Church in respect of
certain aspects of separate development or apartheid. He does not know
anything of the facts which you are putting to him regarding South West
Africa. Your questions do not appear to be directed to hiinhis capacity
as an expert. They are directed to hirn in his capacity as an individual
witness. Either he gives his evidence as an expert or he gives it as an
individual witness in relation to facts that he knows. In what respect is
his testimony, either as a witness of fact or as a expert witness, involved
in the questions which you are putting to him?
hfr. GROSS1 :, Mr. President, would not wish to pursue this Iine of
enquiry. 1 had not realized as fully that the witness knew so little about
the policies kvithrespect to South \Vest Africa. 1 withdraw the question
I asked and 1should like to pursue now a line of enquiry with regard to
more churchly matters, if I may put it that way, MT.President?
The PRESIDEN ell, that rnay be better, 1think.
hfr.GROSS1 : rnay Say, however, with the President's permission, that
in response to the comments of my learned friend the witness himseif
testified concerning the church's support of the policy of separate devel-
opment and 1 had endeavoured, Sir, to reduce it from an abstraction to
a concrete and clear programme so that we could examine the form of
support and the object of support ofthe church to which the witness had
testified. 1 should, however, like with the Court's permission, to pursue
the question ona broader basis and that is with respect to the policy of
expressed by certain churches tandcby the World Council of Churches. as
In the first place, I should like to refer to the work of Dr. Visser WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
27
't Hooft, to which reference has been made both in the Reply and in the
Rejoinder, entitled TheEcumenicalMovementand the Racial Problemby
W. A. Visser 't Hooft, which was published for and by Unesco, the
United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization in 1954
in Paris. Dr. Visser 't Hooft expresses certain conclusions with respect
to what he describes as the (inhis own tems, 1read from p. 65,with the
Court's permission):
"... main points, on which there is a very wide, though not univer-
sal, agreement, are the following: [And these are bis conclusions,
and, with the Court's permission, 1should like to read each of these
six concIusions and ask the witness to comment with respect to the
matter if he wishes] ...".
The PRESIDENT Co:ulà I ask you again, Mr. Gross? You are asking
him to conzment.Either he comments in a persorial capacity orin relation
to his own knowledge of facts, or he comments in his capacity as an
expert. In what capacity are you asking him to comment?
Mr. G~oss: 1 would appreciate, Mr. Presidei~t, by your leave, to ask
hirn to comment on either, or both, and 1 will attempt, first to ask in
terms of the doctrine or pronouncement of theDutch Reformed Church,
if any, and then with respect to his persona1 views as an expert in this
field if the witness wishes to respond.
The first is from page 65 of the work 1 have cited:
"The existence of separate ethnic churches cannot be defended
on the grounds of theological principle.Tlieir existence can, under
certain circurnstances, be justified for practical, pastoral reasons."
Would you, Sir, reRect or advise the Court what, if any, position the
Dutch Reformed Church has taken with regard to the question of the
defence of the existence of separate ethnic churches on grounds of
theological principle?
Mr, GEI~ICK :TheoIogical andlor practical principles?
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. If 1may quote again "practical, pastoralreasons"
is the expression.
Mr. GEI~ICKM E:r. President, 1can take you back to many missionary
conferenct:~but 1 want to refer to one, the one at Tambaram in 1938
which saiclexactly the opposite ofwhat Dr. Visser 't Hooft issaying i?
that particular passage. Thereis a difference of opinion about this matter
in the churches of the world today, whether it can be theologically
justified or practically justified. Now, it is very difficult to distinguish
between a theological and a practical reason. If it is necessary to follow
a certain soad for thebenefit of the church, practically, then it would be
wrong to say itis theologically wrongto follow that road except ifthere
are definite principles of the Bible, Scriptural prjncipatsstake.
Mr. GROSS: May 1 ask, Sir, by way of elucidation,if non-Whites are
excluded from participation in White services. Are they excluded?
Mr. GEKICKE :From participation in White services?
Mr. GRO~S: Yes, Sir.
Mr. GG~oss:EYes, Sir. Dutch Refomed Church?
Mr. GERICKE T:hejrare not excluded. Three meeks ago 1had between
three and four hundred non-White people in my Church at Stellenbosch
and the two speakers for the night were a Coloured person and a Bantu
Minister. They were not excluded. 28 SOUTH WEST AFR~CA
fiIr. GROSS:Was this, may 1 ask, as part of or in the course of religious
services?
&Ir. GERICKE:Yes, it was a missionary week and it was part of a
religious service-they were not excluded.
Mr. GKOSS:May 1refer to it, Sir, as a multi-racial service-isthat
term acceptable to you?
Mr. GERICKE Y:es, for that ...
Mr. G~oss: Now, are multi-racial services permitted on certain stated
occasions or in connection with certain events?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes, they are permitted.
Mr. G~oss: Are they otherwise prohibited?
Mr. GERICKE:There iç no church law prohibiting corporate worship
in our church.
JIr. GROSS :Vould you Say, Sir, that the admission of a non-Lhite
person at his own request or volition to a multi-racial service is consistent
with the objective of avoiding strife, disorder, tension which you have
posed before as a reason for the establishment of separate churches?
Mr. CERICKE:iVhether this would cause strife and tension-is that
the question?
hlr. GROSS: Yes, Sir.
Mr. GERICKE:It did not cause it at Stellenbosch-1 do not know what
rnight happen Say in a congregation in Johannesburg-it al1depends on
local conditions.
Mr. GROSS:Thus, the emphasis ~r~ouldbe, ~vould it, if1 understand
you correctly, on the practical pastoral reasons to which Dr. Visser .
't Hooft refers. Would you çay, Sir, now as an individual, as a church
leader and expert that there is a theological principle which favours multi-
racial services or joint taking of communion, let us say-rvould you say
that as an individual, espert, theologian?
Mr. GERICKE:It is difficult to precisely understand what youmean by
theological reasons-if you, the counsel, ask me, Jlr. President, whether
there are scriptural reasons or scriptural principles, then 1 can answer
the question but it is difficult to precisely understand what you meanby
theological reasons.
hlr.GROSS : ell Sir1 \vas referring t...
Mr. GERICKE .: .scriptural principles?
Mr. GROSS:NO, Sir. 1 was referring to the phrase used by Dr. Visser
't Hooft which 1 have quoted-the phrase heing "theological principle"
in a sentence which 1 may repeat with the Court's permission-"the
existence of separate ethnic churches cannot be defended on grounds of
theological princip1e"-this iç the phrase, which I now address in the
question to you as an expert-does theological principle favourpartici-
pation of different races in common services?
hlr. GERICKE:;\Ir. President, that is the problem with this question;
there are people who give theological reasons for multi-racial churches;
there are people ~vhogive theoiogical reasons for separate churches.If 1
am an Arnerican citizen, most probably Say in the north,1 will find many
ministers who will give theological reasons for multi-racial churcheand
if1 go to the south there might be people whotellme there are theological
reasons for separate churches but when you corne to scriptural principles
then 1 can ansuper the question.
Mr. GROSS:Well, Sir, Iam at the moment .. .
hlr. GERICKE :OU sce my problem? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 29
&Ir. GROSS : es, Sir, of course, anI hope you see mine.
Mr,GERICKE :es, Sir.
Jlr. GROSS: 1 would with the President's permission continue with
this lineofquestions addressed to the summation of Dr. Visser 't Hooft.
The second quotation which is under the heading, as 1would rernirid you
Sir: the main points on which thereis very wicleif not universal agree-
ment are the following-
"The formation of special ethnic churches must never be con-
sidered as more than a very provisional solution of the problem of
natiori and race in the chrisfian church-the dear purpose must
always be to arrive as soon as possible at the creation of supraethnic,
supraracial churches.In this matter, thesociological pattern of the
environment is in no sense a decisive argument against advance
along this line for the mission of the church is to point the way
towards unrestricted fellowship between men and women of al1
nations and races."
Would you corninent on that first, if you please, ïvith respect to whether
or not the Dutch Reformed Church would have a policy compatible or
incompatil~llewith that statement and secondly, your own persona1 view
asan expert if you wish to express it to the Court.
Mr. GERICKE 1:do not agree with a supra-ethnical church-1 think
that is the view of my Church as ~vell.The unity of the church is not to
be found in one organization or unity of organizationsbecause then it
would be very difficult to have unity in Chrisi: with peoplein another
country.
Mr. GRCISSS : o that i1 understand you correctly, Sir, you disagree
with the basis of this point?
Mr. GERICKE Yes.
&Ir. GRCIS 1Sshould like to turn to the thirtl of the points or may1
ask, by the way, could you advise the Court as an expert ïvhether or
not the point just read with which you disagree both as an individual
expert ancl a member of the Dutch Reformed Church-whether or not
this doctrine as announced here or sumrnarizeii by Dr. Visser 't Hooft
would be acceptable or more consistent with the vievilpoint of the
AngIican a.nd Roman Catholic Churches in the liepublic of South Africa.
Mr. GERICKE There will be difference of opinion in both the Roman
Catholic and the Anglican Church.
&Ir. GROSÇ: Have either or both of those churches, howe&r, made
official pronouncements bearing upon the subject ofa supra-national or
supra-racial church as the objective of the church's mission?
Mr. GERICKEI: do not know about any pronouncernents but Iknow it
is a genera.1trend in that church to have a supra-ethnic church but there
are people who differ with that principle, in both churches.
Rlr. GRC~S S:Othey, Sir, on theological or scriptural grounds?
&Ir.GERICKE: 1am not in a position to say.
Mr. GROSS: I understand. The third t ointis "enforcseegregation, the
refusa1 to admit personç intoa Christian Church mereiy on the grounds
of race cannot be justified in any way"-wouid the Dutch Reformed
Church and would you as an individual expert ab.reemith that summation
that 1 have just read?
Mr. GERICKE Enforced segration cannot he . ..
Mr. GROSS:1 will read it again-"enforced segration, the refusal to30 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
admit persons into a Christian Church merely on the grounds of race,
cannot be justified in any way".
Mr. GERICKE:NOW,admit to a service in the church or admit to
membership because that makes a difference?
Mr. G~oss:Would you answer it, with the Court's permission, in both
contexts and explain the difference, Sir?
Mr. GERICKEM : r. President, 1 have already said that on occasions
non-White people come to my Cburch and they are very welcome there
-it happened a fewweeks age-that is admission to the Church service.
When itcornes to admission to membership then there is one point that
must be remembered-supposing, ifI may take the example, a number of
people, say ten Bantu people, were to come to me in Stellenbosch from
the localBantu congregation and want to become members ofthe Church,
then it isquite adifferent position. First of all, 1 do not want to rob the
local Bantu church of ten members; if ten rnembers of the Anglican
Church were to come to me-then I want to know the reasons why
they want to come to the Dutch Reformed Church-the same would
section, need these people, they need them as leaders and 1would consider
it a "stab ofBrutus" if 1 accept those Bantus as members ofthe Dutch
Reformed White Church in Stellenbosch while they have their own
church. 1must help the Bantu church to get on with the job and therefore
1 am not in aposition to rob them of ten or five members.
Mr. GROSÇ:Excuse me, Sir, were you finished? The problem in that
respect then arises, if I understand you correçtly, by reason of the
existence of this...
hfr. GERICKE Y:es.
hlr.GROSS :.. this young and perhaps struggling church. But for
the existence of that church would there be any other reasons or problems
that would anse, if let us Say, a person, non-White, came to your Church
-a person who was not a member or afiîliated with a Bantu church, who
does not for persona1reasons wish to be-rvould you have other reasons
for excluding him?
Mr.GERICKE I:have already given the information in rny testimony
on that point.
Mr. GROSSW : hich you do not care to elaborate ... 1 will look at the
record on that. The next point of Dr. Visser 't Hooft is as follows-
"Where separate etinic racial churches exist, there rests with these
churches a specialresponsibility to demonstrate in various ways that
they are in a real sense mernbers of one and the same body."
Would you agree with that and would the Church agree with that?
Mr. GERICKE1 : agree with that.
Mr. G~oss:The next point-
"This concern for the expression of supra-racial Christian unity
must find expression, not only at the level of national Synods or
Councilçbut must be particularly made manifest in regular contacts
between different localcongregations and their members."
\iVould you comment on that both from the standpoint of the Dutch
Reformed Church policy and your own views as an expert?
Mr. GERICKE :es, there must be local contact and as a matter of
fact we have the local contact.
Mr. GROÇS:There are also regular contacts between different local WITNESSEÇ AND EXPERTS 3=
congregations and their members-could you explain to the Court what
the nature of those regular local contacts is between the different con-
gregations, White and non-white?
Mr. GERICKE M:r. President, hst of al], 1am referring now to my own
congregation. Ure have a missionary week every year-to these services
we extend a special invitation to al1our local non-White congregations,
coloured and Bantu. Then, we have a committee conçisting of members
of the chiirch council of the coioured commurlity and members of the
church coiincil of the mother churchcommunity, which meet at intervals
to discuss problems of cornmon interest.
Mr. GROSS:This would be at the local congrcgation levels?
Mr. G~oss: Therefore, you agree with this principle.
Mr. GEKICKE:At the top level 1 believe I said before, Mr. President,
that we have a Federal Council.
hlr. GRCISSA: nd finally, this seriofstatements-"the final purpose
must remain to create churches and local congregations which manifest
the unity of men of al1races and peoples in their comrnon relation to one
and the same Lord"-that ~ould be consistent, no doubt, with the
views both of the Dutch Reformed Church and your own view. The
question would anse 1 take it, would it not, Sir, as to the rnethod by
~vhichthat principle or mission is carried out?
Xr. GERICKE:That is correct.
Mr. G~oss: The testimonjr which you have given according to my
notes, and 1turn now to a somewhat different line of questions, with the
Court's permission, relates to the degree ofautonomy orindependence of
the daughter churches, as you referred to the non-White churches in the
Dutch ReformeclChurch. 1should likte o ask several questions about that
if 1may. One of the questions 1 should like to ducidate, which 1 do not
believe you have covered, is whether in al1 of the non-White Dutch
Reformed Churches there exists full autonomÿ, in the sense that they
have ecclesiastical jurisdiction over White ininisters serving within them.
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is so, Mr. President. The local church council has
the same authority in the daughter church as the local church council
has in the White church.
hIr. CROSS:The same degree of ecclesiastical jurisdiction over the
White ministers is exercised bythe synads and counciIs of the non-White
chuhlr. GERICKE:Yes. Only one anachronism in this situation rernains,
i.e.that n-hen a JVhiteminister ora White missionary has to be censured
-is that the word you use?-. ..
hfr. GROSS:1would think so,Sir.
Mr. GERICKE: ...this has to be done by the White church, which has
a special commission for that.
Mr. G~oss: Does that power extend. ..or is it Iimited only to censure?
Does it involve, for example, removal or re-assignment?
Mr. GERICKE:NO.It does not involve re-assignment.
Mr. GROÇS:In other words, the White ministers serving in a non-
White church could be re-assigned by the non-Imite church council?
Mr. GER.ICKEI:n our Church we have a system where you are called to
another congregation by the church council of that particular conVega-
tion, and you can accept it or reject it. That is also the position in the
Coloured and Bantu churches.32 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
$Ir. G~oss: With respect to White ministers as well as to non-IVhite
ministers?
Mr. GERICKE: Non-iVhite and White ministers.
Rlr. GROSS:1s that true also with respect to removal of iiihite min-
isters?
Mr. GERICKE :Itemoval?
Mr. CROSS: In terms of discipline or expulsion from the church.
Mr. GEKICKEN : O.AS1said before, we still have the anachronism that
the removal, in the sense of expulsion, rests with the committee.
Mr. G~oss: Are the original assignments made by the non-1iThite
church authorities . ..councils ...the original assignment of a White
minister to a non-\Vhite church, is that made by the non-White church?
Rir. GERICKE:Thenon-i4hite local church couricil.
hfr. GROSSF :inally, along this lindo the non-White churches have
non-imite moderators and are al1their higheçt officebearers non-IVhite?
ilir. GERICKE:Yes. They have non-\irhite moderators.
>Ir. GROSS:And are their highest officebearers al1non-\Irhite?
Nr. GERICKE Y:es, with the exception of a few. 1 think there is a
secretary in Malawi, who is a White missionary and 1think there is a
secretary in the Bantu church who is a White missionary.
Mr. GROSS:These would be exceptions in your persona1 knowledge?
Mr. GERICKE:That is the present position.
Mr. G~oss: 1 should like now also to turn, with the President's per-
be brief about this, Rlr. President, with your indulgence-1should like
to refer to your testimony, which, according to my notes, indicated that
the development of separate churches was the result of the missionary
zeal of the nineteenth century and the wishes of the non-\mites. Am 1
correctly paraphrasing your testirnony?
Ilr. GERICKE:Yes. That iç correct. This development came as the
result ofa new effort by the \Vhite church to reach as many non-White
people at the Cape as possible.
Mr. G~oss: Now, is it correct, Dominie Gericke, that when these
questions were first raised in the middle of the nineteenth century there
was reluctance on thepart of the churches to agree to the separation of
the churches?
Mr.GERICKEY : es, especiallonthe part of the Whitc church.
Mr. G~oss: Especially on the part of the Whitt: church?
Rir.GERICKE:The White ministers of the church.
Mr. G~oss: This was what 1was referring to-reluctance on thepart
of the White ministers. And is it correct that, in the earlier attempts to
have separate services for the different races, the White church frowned
on the requests that were made by the White congregation for separate
services and separate churches? 1sthat correct?
Mr. GERICKE:I think there was a little frowning on that. That was at
the beginning of the nineteenth century.
Mr. GROSS:Ttwas. According to my notes, Sir, this is from the report
of the ad hoc Commission for Race Relations, appointed by the Federal
Council of Dutch Reformed Churches in South Africa, and it has been
referred to, 1believe, in the pleadings, but in any event, you are familiar
with that report, Sir. On page 6 of that report, the statement is made
that in1855 ,5 White mernbers açked the church council of Stocken-
stroem to serve them Holy Communion "on a separate Sunday" from WJTNESSES AND EXPERTS 33
that on which non-Whites received the sacrament. Then the repart
says-
"The church council refused their request on the grounds that it
conflicted with the formulary for the Communion service, the
Articles of faith and many passages of scripture."
DO you agree with the ruling of the church council 1referred to?
Mr. GERICKE ::Vaçit the LVhitechurch council refusing admission to
4j non-White applicants?
Mr. GRC~SS Y es, Sir, that appears on page 6 of the report of the
ad hoc commission-the words 1 have just read and quoted are from
page 6 of the report. Are you farniliar with that sectioof the report?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes.
&Ir. GROSST : his isivhat isreported. 1cannot vouch for its accuracy.
Do you wish to comment as to whether you agree or diçagree with the
ruling of thechurch council as reflected ithis report?
Mr. GERICKE A:lr. President, it iç very difficult to go back more than
a hundred years and know what were the reasons why this waç refused.
It is very ciifficu1tdo notthink there isany report in history about the
reasons.
Mr. GROSS 1:cannot Say ifthere is or is not, Si1referred to itasan
excerpt from the report ofthe ad hoc commission. 1 take it that you
would not then eare to comment one way orthe other about that?
Mr. GERICKEN : O,not for the moment.
Mr. GROSS : urther, rnapI ask you this as well? Iwould appear from
this report.that the initiative was taken by the White members, or a
certain nurnber of White rnembers, of the church, who requested the
church council dong these lineç. Now, woiild you care to comment, asan
expert, concerning the extent to which the çeparate services and the
separate churches arose as a result of initiatives taken by JVhites, such
as is refiectein the excerpt of the report 1 have just read?
Mr. GERICKE A:t thattime, &Zr.President, asI have said before,very
few non-imites joined the church. They were a srna11minority. Any new
idea or movernent in the church carne from the White people, but itis
historic factthat at that tinte there were Coloured people who had a
feeling of frustration because, as I said beforii,they were a rninority
group; they had separate seats in the cliurch, dc.; but the move came
from itliite people.
Mr. GROSST : hereport, at the same page, nttlie çame paragraph of the
ad hoc commission goes on to Say that :
"Soon afterwards [that is soon after thiç incident to whichIhave
just referred] the European members asked that the Communion be
served to them on the same Sunday, but after the usual service,in
their cups and by their own dcacons."
This request was referred to the Presbyteqr and the Presbytery of
Albany decided unanimously:
"that, as a concession to prejudice and weakness, it be recommended
to the church council ofStockenstroem toserve one or more tables
to the new or European members of the Communion after the
Communion had been senred to the older members of the parish,
namaly the non-Whites."34 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
The concession to prejudice and weakness-is that, Dominie Gericke,
a fair summation or description ofanyaspect ofthe creation ofindigenous
churches in theRepublic or of the holding of separate services today?
Mr. GERICKE 1s the question: whether this played a part when
separate services first came into existence, or separate churches?
hlr. G~oss:My question, Sir,is~vhetherthe view of the presbytery to
which 1have referred, that the request of the White members of the
church would be granted as a "conceçsion to prejudice and weaknessW-
whether that enters, in your judgment as an expert faced with the
problem, into the situation today both in respect to the separate church
and the separate service?
Mr. GERICKE M:r. President, as I believe, if prejudice enters into this
maTherPRESIDENWinfT:ell, the question is-in your opinion, does prejudice
enter into the present separation of the churches into tlie mother church
and the daughter churches?
Mr. GERICKEM : r. President, my opinion is that we have passed that
stage of prejudice in our church. It must have existed, 1 think it did
existacentury ago, but wehave passed that stage. We believein separate
churches for other reasons than prejudice.
The PRESIDENT:Would you Say if the establishment of the church
was based in any sense upon prejudice, in your opinion, and if so, when
did itç foundation rest upon some other basis?
Mr. GERICKE It:is my opinion that it \vas not a decisive factor. It
could have been present, but it was not a decisive factor. The decisive
factor was that for two hundred years the Dutch Reformed Church tried
integration in the church, and, as 1have said before, very few non-White
people joined the church, and when this awakening came and special
services were heId for these people, then many of them joined the church
and in 1581 a separate church for Coloured people was established. It is
always difficdt to Say what were the hidden motives of people in those
days but I know that there was very little success on the pattern of
integration and there was more success on the pattern of separate
churches. It is from that date that our churches increased in nurnbers.
The PRESIDENH T:ave you in recent years been made conscious of any
pre'udice inside your own Church on thepart of White people in relation
to Aoloured and other non-White people?
Mr. GERICKE:Mr. President, 1 am so grateful that the one thing
happening in South Africa is that prejudice is dying out. In my own
we are preaching against prejudice and I think we have made a lot of,
headway. 1 will not Say that there is no prejudice in South Africa, as a
matter of fact, 1 do not think there is a country where you do not find
prejudice, butif 1had to ansver the question, what is the main thing
that happened during the past IO15, 20and more years in South Africa,
1 would Say, it is the dying out of prejudice in that country. That is my
impression.
Mr.GROSS :r.President, 1have çeveral more questions. Would it be
the pieasure of the President to allow me to continue tomorrow?
The PRESIDENT C:ertainly, it can be continued tomorrow, Mr. Cross.
Mr. GROSST :hank you, Sir. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 35
[Public heaving of 21 Sefitenabe19651
Mr. GROSS: Dominie Gericke, since the adjournment of the session
yesterday 1 have had the opportunity toread the verbatim of 20 Sep-
tember 1965 and there are one or two points which I should like to
endeavour to clear up, with the President's permission, by reference to
the verbatim, in particular one point which 1çhall read. 1 referto an
apparent confuçion that aroçe between us-1 arn sure it wasmy fault-
on pages 32 and 33, supra, of the verbatim. 1 had asked you, if you
recall, for opinion regarding a ruling in1855 by the Albany Council of
the D.R.C. in connection with a request that h;~dbeen made by certain
White mernbers to the church council to serve them Holy Communion
"on a separate Sunday" from that on which non-Whites received the
sacrament, and then 1quoted from page 6 of the report which 1identified
as the report of the ad hoc Commission for Race Relations appointed by
the Federal Council ofDutch Reformed Churches in South Afdca. Page 6
of that report from which 1 quoted stated that :
"The church council refused their request on the grounds that it
conflicted with the formulary for the Communion Service, the
Articlesof Faith and many passages of Scripture."
And I asked whether you agreed with the ruling of the church council-
what your opinion was in regard to that ruling. Then yau asked me, as
reflected iri the verbatim at the top of pag33, supra,"was it the White
church coiincil refusing admission to45 non-White applicants?" 1mis-
understood you, 1am afraid, Sir, and said "yes, Sir" and then 1referred
again ta the quotation, Then ensued a short colloquy in which you said,
in responçe to my question, that you "would not care to comment one
way or the other about it for the momentu-1 quote from page 33.
Now, 1 am anxious to clear this upin fairness to you and to the Court
because 1am not certain whether you understood my question and the
request which I addressed to you for an expression of your opinion,
theological or scriptural, or both, particularwith respect to the reason
assigned by the church council which, if1 may refreshyour recollection
again, "reEused the request on the grounds that it conflicted with the
formulary for the Communion Service, the Articles of Faith and many
passages cif Scripture".Subject to that clarificationof the exchange
between us, would you now care to comment--express your views with
regard to the Council's decision and the basis for the refusal as reflected
in the report?
Mr. GEKICKE :ir. President, at that time it was one church.AS you
willrecollect, it was before the Coloured church was established in the
Cape. 1 do not think itcan be justified, when it was one church, to refuse
people the church building or the Communion Service.
Mr. G~oss :In other words, Sir,if Ihave understood you correctly, the
explanation, in your opinion, would be that the existence of only one
church would alter the scriptural basis of the decision?
Mr. GERICKE The scriptural basis?
Mr. GROSS: Yes, Sir, may I remind you that the quotation in the
relevant portion?I may, Mr. Preçident, read it just once mare in that
The PRESIDENT t is at the top of page33, szlpra.
Mr. GRCISS O:n page ss-yes, Sir.36 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"The church council refused their request on the grounds that it
conflicted with the formulary for the Communion Service, the
Articles of Faith and many passages of Scripture."
1 wondered whether you could shed light upon the reasons which, from
the church point of view-theologically or scripturally-would have been
involved in such a decision.
Mr. GERICKE:Mr. President, it is very difficult toSay becaüse 1 know
of no text pertaining to the position when this particular church council
decided to refuse, or rather to have two separate services at that time.
1 know of no scriptural passage pertaining to this particular position.
Alr. GROSS:Then, 1 think, if1understand your answer correctly, that
you have no basis for an opinion concerning . . .
Mr. GERICKE:It is such a pity that wheii acliurch council makes such
a decision they do not say on which particular scriptural basis. They did
not Say and so it is very dificult for me to Say what was the text ifany
to which they referred.
Mr. G~oss: Thank you. Just in order to compIete the record of the
history on this matter, in so faras it may be ofinterest to a full under-
standing on the part of the Court with regard to the testimony regarding
the history of the separate churches, in the same report by the ad hoc
Commission on page 6 the report states:
"The Synod [and 1 will inject parenthetica.11~that the decision of
the council to which 1 havc just reierred, quoted on p. 33, supra, of
the verbatim was appealed to the synod, which 1 presume is the
higher authority, and the report on page 6 states as follows:] con-
siders it desirable and scriptural that our members from the heathen
be receivedin and absorbed in to Ourexisting congregationswherever
possible, but where this measure, as a resiilt of the weakness of
some, irnpedes the furtherance of the cause of Christ among the
heathens, the congregation from the heathen already founded or still
to be founded shall enjoy its Christian privilegeç in a separate
building or institution."
Could you, Dominie Gencke, shed any light upon the reference in that
decision by the synod-the reference to the result of the "weakness of
some"? Would you have any elucidation of that for the Court?
Ur. GERTCKEM : r. President, in my testimony yesterday 1 tried to
explain that it became clear to the Dutch Reformed Church that an
adapted form of preaching was necessary, even new hymns were neces-
sary, on account ofthe difference of levelof intellectual development,etc.,
-1 refer to my testimony.
This "weakness of some", as far as 1 know, refers to that weakness.
Therefore, it was allowed, or permitted, by the synod to have a separate
service.
The PRESIDENT :sthis your interpretation?
Mr. GERICKE: That ismy interpretation.
The PRE~IDENT : ave you any factual basis upon which you base that
interpretation?
Blr. GERICKE1 : think it would be very difficiiIt to find any factual
basis. 1have not, at any rate.
Mr. GROSS1 : would like to point out to the honourable Court that the
report to which reference is made and which has been the subject of
quotation, was a report of the ad hoc Commission for Race Relations WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
37
appointed by the Federal Council. Could 1 ask you, Dominie Gericke,
did you participatin the work of the Council atthat tirne, or in the work
of the Commission at that time?
Mr. GEI~ICK:ENot at that time, Mr. President.
Mr. G~ciss:1 shall proceed, i1 may, with the permission of the Presi-
dent, to refer to the subsequent section of the report (1nrefer now to
p.IO),in which the Commission sets forth what it calIs a critical review
ofthe history, andP quote in relevant part:
"Fi-om the above historical survey, it appears that the founding
of separate churches sprang from [then 1omit a paragraph]
(b) the fact that some European members preferred to attend
separate Communion Services, and to worship separately from the
non-FVhites. Undoubtedly the motives here were grounded on social
and hygienic considerations and on the racial attitudeof the nine-
teenth century."
Does this critical review of the Commission,in your expert opinion,
reflect a correct analysis of the reason (among others) for the establish-
ment of separate churches?
Mr. GERICKE: NO, it is not a complete arialysis according to my
opinion.
Mr. GROSS1: have not represented itto be a complete analysis1want
again, if1may, Sir, to point out that1am not readin the entire section.
1 am concentrating, however, on this section that 1 ave just read and
would appreciate it ifyou would wish to explain to the Court whether,
in your expert view, this reason, among othersis atrue and valid critical
analysis or historyof the foundation of separate churches?
Mr. GERICKE& : IrPresident, could the reasoiis be repeated, please?
The PRBSIDENTT : he question could be less involved, Mr. GrossWhy
do you not ask him the question: was it, in his opinion, afactor that
operated to the establishment of separate churches?
Mr. GRC~SS D:idyou understand the question, Sir?
Mr. GEE:XCK WE:s ita factor?
Mr. GROSS W:as it a factor?Yes.
Mr. GERICKE 1:think it could have been a factorin those days.
Mr. GRC~SS D:Oyau have a view as to whether or not itcontinues to be
3 factor today?
Mr. GEKICK :ENO. Hygienic conçiderations?
Mr. G~oss: The fact . . .1 wil read it to you, i1 may, again:
"The founding of separate churches sprang from, and among, the
factors 'the facthat some European merrlbers preferred to attend
separnte Communion services and to worship separately from the
non-bVhites. UndoubtedIy, the motives here were grounded on
social and hygienic considerations and on the racial attitudes of the
nineteenth century'."
1 had ;isked you before, with the elucidation by the honourabIe
President, for your comment with regard to this factor and1 am now
asking you ~vhether you regard it as a pertinent factor to explain the
continued existence of separate churches, today?
Mr. GEI~ICKE 1:do not think there are any hygienic reasons at the
present tiine.
Mr. GR~SS: Are there social considerations or racial attitudes which
enter into the continuation of the separate churches?38 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. GERICKE:At the present moment?
&ZrG.ROS: At the present time, yes, Sir.
Bk. GERICKET : his must haveentered into the debate in the course of
time. 1 do not agree with those arguments. 1 think there are other argu-
ments, as 1stated in my testimony before, which are valid to me, but 1
do not agree with those.
Mr. GROSS:l'ou do not agree, Sir, with ...
Mr. GERICKEW : ith that statement.
Mr. GROSS:With this as a statement concerning the reason for the
originalestablishment of separate churches?
Mr. GERICKEF : or the fact of separate churches as they are today.
Mr. G~oss: You believe that this was not one of the reaçons for the
establishment of separate churches?
Mr.GERICKE M:r. President, as I have said before, it could have been
a reason in those days.
Mr. GROSSW : e have been discussing the conternporary situation and
1just wanted to be certain that we understood each other.
Mr. GER~CK EO:be quite clear on this point-if the question was
favour of separate churches because of hygienic reasons, social reasons
or reasons of. ..
Mr. GROSS:Racial attitudes.
Mr. GERICKE: ... racial attitudes? Then my answer would be: no, not
on those counts. There are other and better reasons which1gave in my
testimony yesterday.
The PRESIDENT:The question was really not that precisely. The
question first was whether it wasa factor in the original establishment
of the separate daughter churches? To that you have given an answer.
hlr. GERICKE:1 think so.
The PRESIDENTT :heother question is, however it is put-iit a factor
today for the continued maintenance of separate churches?
Mr. GERICKE:It is not a valid factor.
The PRESIDENTI:t is a factor in the minds of the White congregation?
hlr. GERICKE:1 think you \vil1find very fehv White people in our
Church who would consider that a factor.
Mr. G~oss: Shall 1 continue, Sir? The remaining single question 1
should like to address to you on the basis of the report is again under the
heading of "Critical Review of Hiçtory", in which the report states as
follows, at pageII :
"that the decision o1857 and the founding ofindigenous churches,
aswell as the origin of the custom at that tiine that members from
a specific race could onIy join their own church, wasa matter qf
practical policy and noofprinciple is proved by the followin...
and then set forth certain reasons, which unless you or the Court wishes
enough, is-doll you wish to expressraoview concerning the conclusionear
reflected here that the founding the indigenous churches, as well as the
origin ofthe custom at that tirne that members of a specific race couid
only join their oivn church, was a rnatter of practical policy and not of
principle?
Mr.GERICKE:Bir.'~resident, 1would be ço grateful if blr. Gross would
read the rest of that particular paragraph, where it is stated that this is WITNESSES AKD EXPERTS 39
in accordance with the church's view of the nature of the Church of
Christ on earth.
Mr. GROSS1:would be glad to if the Yresident wilipermit. To continue
thequote :
"is proved by the following:
(a) the families of European missionaries and other Europeans
often worship in the mission churches;
(b) the inclusion of two non-White con egations, St. Stephen's and
Stockenstroern, in the mother, # ?ropean, church, and the
presence of their delegated elderst presbyterial and synodical
gatherings;
(c) the special services at çome places which are attended by be-
lievers from al1racial groups,
It is worth noticing that not one of the federated Dutch Reformed
Churches kas ever kgally, orin any other way, forbidden the Com-
munion of believers from the various racial groups."
That is the end of the quote of the reasons and may I remind you,
Sir-it rnay be difficult to follow this lengthy quote-that these are
assigned as reasons which prove, in the words of the report, that the
founding of the indigenous churches was a matter of practical policy and
not of principle?
Mr. GERICKE M :r. President, in that same report-would like to see
that report, 1haven't got it here-itis stated by thead hoccommission
that thefounding ofseparate churches wasin acccirdancewith the church's
view of the nature ofthe Church ofChristonearth-its diversity, etc.
The PRISSIDENT 1:am sure Mr. Gross ~villshow you the document so
you can identify what he sap.
Mr. G~oss:You Say you do not have it rvith you?
Mr. GERICKE Y:OUwill have to give me timc for that of course. Can
we leave that for a while?
Mr. GROSSW : ith the President's permission, 1 would be very glad to
continue with another line ta give the witness an opportunity to study
and find the portion to which he referç.
1 tum now, Dominie Gericke, to the testimony of yesterday, again !n
the same verbatim and 1 refer particularly to your reply, which I ~ll
quote in part, to a question addressed to you by learned counsel, in
which you state as follows; on pageg,supra, of thisverbatim, in mhich
you are describing the respects inwhich the system is beneficial to the
adherents of the church, that is, to have the separate churches, Say:
"First of all, thissystem provides fui1opportunity forself-develop-
ment for the members of the daughter churches. Al1officesare open
to them. [And then in the next paragraph-1 skip several sen-
tences-you Say:]
The separated churches realize and appreciate the fact that they
are not merely an appendix of the WhiteChurch but churches equal
in status. This has really engendered a spirit of CO-operation,of
mutual respect and of neighbourliness. Tlieÿ can now meet their
White brothers in the church as equals. [And then you concluded
that answer by saying:] The present relationship between the
readiness to co-operate." churches is one of mutual respect and4O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Now, 1would like particularly to emphasize, for the purpose of my
question to you, the two sentences,respectively:"Al1offices are open to
them" and, secondly: "They can now meet their White brothers in the
church as equals." Would you care to elaborate, before 1proceed, what
you had in mind when referring tothe fact that al1 offices are open to
them. To whom were you referring, Sir?
Mr. GERICKET :o the members of the non-White congregatioii.
Mr. G~oss: You meant, Sir, that al1officesin the church were open to
them, as non-White members of the congregation?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes.
Mr. GROSS:Does this mean, Sir, that offices are not open to non-
?hite members of the church in the White section, or White churches,
of the Dutch Reformed Church?
hlr. GERICKE:Before the separation, Nr. President?
Xr. GROSS:1 am talking about the present ti~ne, if that is what y-ou
were referring to, Sir.
&Ir.GERICKE :The meaning of that passage is as followMr. President.
IVhen we had a multi-racial church, that was before1581, when there
were non-White mernbers in the congregation. 1 know of no case where
a non-White was chosen as an elder or a deacon. They were a minority
group. They found thernselves in a minor position in the church. The
office-bearers were White people. When the new church came into being,
it stands to reason that there was more opportunity and thisopportunity
was utilized; elders and deacons were chosen and eventually they had
their own ministers. That is al1 have to say.
Rlr. GROSS: If 1 understand you correctly, Sir, you were not referring
to the present time?
Mr. GERICKE:NO.
Rlr. GROSS:Then we have said that al1offices are open to them?
hlr. GERICKE:NO. \Vell, itapplies to the present time, al1 offices are
open to them now, in the non-IVhite church.
Mr. G~oss: My question, Sir, is, or was intended to be, whetheatthe
present time officesare open to non-\mites in theite Dutch Reformed
Church? Are any offices open to non-Whites in the White Dutch Re-
formed Church?
Mr. GERICKE:NO,theyare not members of the White Dutch Reformed
Church.
Mr. GROSS: Now, may I ask, if this is noa hypothetical question,
whether any non-Whites are members of the White church-are there
any rnembers of the White Church who are non-White?
Mr. GERICKE N:O,as 1 said, Mr. President1 know of no case where a
non-White became a member of the White church.
Mr. G~oss: The fact that al1 offices in their omn church are open to
them would follow from the fact that there are separate non-White
churches?
Mr. GERICKE: Yes.
&Ir.GROSS:1s itthe point, Sir, that you werimplying here that iisa
reason for separate non-Ihite churches that if they were multi-racial
churches, they would not be eligible for office?
Mr. GERICKE:Oh, they would be eligible but it would not be easy.
Mr. GROSS:Why would it not be easy, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE:Rir. Preçident, 1think Iexplained this point: the non-
White people (and1 was refemng to history) , werin the minor position WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 4I
in the White church. When this new church was formed, which is a very
strong church today, these offices wereopen to the non-White people and
to them alone.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir. Now would you bring that down to the present
time-contemporary life of the church-would you comment on whether
or not-1 am referring to your testimony, Sir, andattemptingto elucidate
it for the Court-whether or not it is implied in your statement thatall
offices are open to them as a reason for having separate churches and if
you did not have a separate church, but have rnulti-racial churches,the
non-Whites would not be either eligible for office or would not receive
office-is that the implication?
Mr. GERICKE:It is a hypothetical questiori-1 do not know what
would happen if the Dutch Reformed 1Vhite Church and the Dutch
Reformed Coloured Church became one church tomorrow or the day
after. hlr. President,it ivery difiïcult to foretell tfuture but as 1see
it the level of intellectual development, even at the present moment is
such that very few of the non-White people would become leaders in a
multi-racial church. We hope that in the future this difference in level of
intellectua.1 development will disappear-in the near future.
Mr. GROSS: Then your testimony is that one of the reasons,+perhaps a
principal reason for this advantage that you see.in the separationis that
the non-Wlites generally have not achieved a level of accomplishment or
ability which enables them to compete on equal basis with Whites-is
that what you are . ..
Mr. GERICKE : es, the competition.
Mr. GROSS: And it is in that respect that you feel the existence of
separate churcheç will offer more opportunities of advancement so to
speak-is that correct?
Mr. GEKKCK :That is the reaçon, Mr. Presidtznt.
hlr. GROSSN: ow is it not true, Sir, that the Englisfi-speaking churches
which, if1am not mistaken-correct meon this, claim substantially more
non-White adherents than the Dutch Reformed Church-is that not
correct, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE: Yeç.
Mr. GROSS:That the English-speaking churches, as I understand it,
believe that while it may be practically expedient for Wliites and non-
Whites to worship separately, they are al1rnembers of the same comrnu-
nity and should sharein the government of the Church. 1sthat a correct
version or analysis of the attitude and - .icy of the English-speaking
church?
Mr. GERICKE Y:es.
Mr. GROÇS: And is it correct that in the great majority of the con-
gregations of these churches, although they do worship in separate
buildings, White and non-White ministers and laymen deliberate and
vote toge1:her in synodicaI meetings-is that correct so faras you are
atvare?
MT. GERICXE:Yes, that is correct but, Mr. President, 1 must point
out-1 am very reluctant to talk about sister churches in South Africa
as you can appreciate, but 1 must point out that in the English churches
very few rion-White members becorne leaders.
Mr. GROSS :rnong those few, as I understa~id it, Dominie Gericke (1
will not press you for comment or analysis of the church in which you
are not ordained, and in which you do not profess expertise, and if you42 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
do not know as a matter of fact whether what 1ask you is correct or not
of course1shallnot press the point) but is it true to your knowledge that
the Methodist Church of South Africa has had an African or Bantu
President who is the executive or administrative head-the Reverend
Seth Mokitimi during the current year--do you know whether that is
correct?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes, 1 knaw the man.
Mr. G~oss: And do you know if office bearers in that Church are
elected by non-racial annual conference-do you know whether that is
correct, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is correct.
Mr. GROSS:And is it correct, if you know, whether the Anglican
Church has had an African or Bantu Suffragan Bishop-the Right
Reverend A. Zulu since 19604s that correct, Sir? You do not know, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE:NO.
hlr.G~oss: That is according to the information 1have; in any event,
itwould appear would it not, Sir, that there are possibilities for advance-
ment to high church positions as well as rnulti-racial or non-racial
synodical or other ecclesiastical sessions in which the other churches do
participate and is part of their policy-ithat not correct, Sir?
Mr. GERICKET : hat is correct. Mr. President, with reference to the
Reverend Mokatimi who became Moderator-if that did happen, \vithout
the election being agesture, Ml1 be in favour of it but there must be no
gestureç, no paternalizing in the church-1 am against that-1 am
reluctant to make any further comment.
Mr.GROSSD : Oyou have any comrnents, Sir, with respect to the p01;cy
of multi-racial meetings for synodicalpurposes in the English-speaking
churches-would you care to commeirt on that asa policy?
Mr. GERICKEN : O,1 do not think so.
Mr. GROSS:YOU,1 think, testified, if I am not mistaken, Dominie
Gericke, that one of the reasons why the Dutch Reformed Church sup-
tension-isarthat not correct?es was in order to avoid friction and
MT. GERICKE: That is correct.
Mr. GROSS:We are dealing here with one society. 1s that, in your
expert view, a source of tension and friction unique to the membership
of the Dutch Reformed Church or is it sornething that you feel would be
ofgeneral applicability?
Mr.GERICKEM : r.President, if this would be an answer to the question,
1 can just Say that 1 know that there is friction and tension in somof
the English churches as a result of this particular matter.
Mr. G~oss :There is throughout ?
hlr.GERICK :EThere is friction.
Mr. GROSS: I shall, with the Court's permission, go into that very
çhortly, but before we reach that I would Like,if I may, to go back to the
other excerpt 1 quoted from your testimony on page 9,supra, of the
verbatim record of yesterday in which you said as fdlows: "They can
now meet their White brothers in the church as equa1s"-1 wonder
whether you would be good enough to elucidate in what çense you used
the term "equals" in that answer.
Mr. GERICKHM : r. President, when we rneet in, Say, OurFederal Coun-
cil,we meet as ministers of the different churches, elders of the different
churches, deacons of the different churches, leaders of the different WITNESSES AND EXPER'I'S 43
churches. Before wehad separate churches there werenocoloured leaders,
they did not have the opportunity to develop into leaders. Butnthey
had to shoulder the burden and take the responsibilityof their own
church, then these leaders developed and now the leaders can meet you
as equals-that isaU 1 meant by that particu1:lr phrase.
>IrG.~oss: "Equals"in terms of church relationship is al1youmeant?
Mr. GERICKE Y:es.
Mr. GROSS :here again would you care to express an opinion, \vithout
pressing youto do 50, with regard as to lvhether or not in theother
Protestant and indeed the Catholic Church, the White and non-White
meet as equals although in the same church.
Mr. GERICKE W:hether they meet as equals?
Mr. G~oss:Yes, in the sense in which you used the terrn.
Mr. GERICKEY : es, I would imagine they meet as equals.
Air.G~oss: You would imagine that ...
Mr. GROSSN : OW1 should like, if I may, MI-.President, to go to the
source, and present to the witness the reportaoCommissionappointed
by the Christian Council of South Africa in 195entitled "Race-What
does the Bible say?"-are you familiar with that report, Dominie
Gericke?
hir. GERICKE Y:es, 1have read it but it was about ten years ago.
hlr.G~oss: 1 will not tax your memoy with it-I would, with the
President's permission, like to read from i1snot, as 1 believe Sir, the
Christian Council of South Africa the Council of al1Protestant churches
in South Africa otherthan the Dutch ReformedChurch, which 1 under-
stand is not a member of the Christian Councas,are allotherProtestant
churches?
Mr.GERICKET :heDutch Reformed Church was a member.
hlr. G~oss: It was a member-when did it leave?
Mr. GERICKE 1:am not sure-it must have been in the late1940s but
1 am not sure.
Nr. G~oss:I should like to read brief excerpts which you may com-
ment on in your ca acity as an expert or othenvise if you wish. First
may I read from the foreword by the Archbishop ofCapeTown as follows:
"At the present time, the Black population is very much larger
than the White but practically al1political pokverinthe hands of
the White man and the White man's reIation to the Black rnan is
complicated by fear. He needs the Black man's labour; the econom-
icsof thecountry are based upon cheap Black labour and the Black
man desires emyloyrnent in industry. It doenot seem possible that
the races canbe kept apartbut the White man is most reluctant to
admit the Black man to anjr kind of equal partnershiphe keeps
political power in his own hands; he keeps the more skilled forms of
labour inhis own hands; he desires to avoid so far asmay be social
contacts with the Black man and his motive is not merely greed-
he is anxious to safeguard what he calls 'western civilization' and he
dreacls race and mixture. These are the conditions under which the
Chnstian bodies in South Africa have towork and in the face of the
problems produced by these conditions, Christian opinion is not
united."
WouId you care to comment, assuming that you would agree readily44 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
that Christian opinion is not nnited-you do, I suppose, agree to that?
hlr. GERICKE:Yes.
Mr. Grzoss: Would you care to comment with respect to the Arch-
biçhop's analysis of the conditions urider which the Christian bodies in
South Africa have to work and the role of the Church in deaIing with
those conditions? Do you accept what 1have read as substantially a fair
anTheorPRESIDENT:Mr. Gross, thiç cross-examination seems to me to be
not ieading us anywhere at all. 1 drew attention yesterday-the witness
isa witness either as to the fact or as to the doctrinand the practice of
his Church. You are now reading to hirn a large amount of observations
made by some distinguished representative of another church.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir.
The PRESIDENT:What iç the fact. that you are seeking to ask the
witness; in what respect is the evidence you are seeking to elucidate by
your questions a matter within his cornpetence as an expert, and if it is
within one or the other, itseems to me you are not entitled to read a
large slab from somebody else's observations which are for the most part
political in contentand ask fiim to comment-that is not cross-esami-
nation.
Rlr.GROSS:Yes, Sir. May 1 attempt to respond to the President?
The PRESIDENT Y:es, certainly.
&IrG~oss: The ~uitnessyesterday, in response toa question by learned
counçel, stated as one of the functionç and missions of the Dutch Ke-
formed Church the support of the doctrine, the policy, of separate
deveIopment. The witness has been asked and, with the Court's permis-
sion, 1 intend to pursue the line of enquiry based upon the testimony
which he gave concerning his Church's support forthe policy of scparate
development; and, with respect, Sir, my line of queçtioning and the
quotation from which fhave just read by the Arcbbishop attempting to
define problems of a fellowChristian church as he saw them, as a respon-
sible leader, was, it seemed tme, with respect,relevant to elicitinfrom
the ~vitness what is meant by separate development in his terrns, and
what the function of the Dutch Reformed Church is in espousing it and
influencing the Government to further it. 1,with respect, would feel that
this iç a rnatter which is relevant to his teçtimony and elucidates the
rneaning attached by the Church for whicli he speaks and his own expert
view concerning separate development. Th.is,of course, is an over-
elaborate answer, but I felt obliged to explain what my effort was, Sir.
The PRESIDEST : r. Gross,the Court will not stop you from asking
questions, but it does not appear tme that you can quote a large estract
from anybody's observations or anybody's work, and then ask a Ivitness
to comrnent; how is that putting a question to a witness? Surely the
question must be put to him: does he agree with this statement and
with that statement, and if he does not, express why he does not,but to
ask him to comment upon a whole number of allegations it seems to me
is not cross-examination, and 1 do not see itisgoing to assist the Court.
Mr. G~oss:1 will, iI may, then, turn to the body of the statement, of
the report of the Commission to which 1 am referring,and ask you, if you
will,Sir, to state your opinion regarding the foilowing comment in the
report; it is on page25 :
"But, as has already been said, spiritual unity in the Church
cannot remain merely spiritual, it must show itself atleast within EVITNESSES AND EXPERTS 45
the Church in outward fellowship between Christians of different
races, social status or sexand if Christians of differentraces meet in
fellouship within the Church, can they refuse to mix when they
meet each other outside the Church in the affairs of the' world?
Unity in Christian fellowship must inevitablyspread into fellowship
in secular activity"
Do you svishto comment an that, and express your opinion with regard
to that?
Mr. GERICKE Y:es.Rfr.President, if hlr. Gross would be so kind-there
are different aspects of that problem, there are several statements made
on that particular page-1 will be willingto answer them one by one.
Mr. GROSS:Certainly, Sir, with the President's permission. May 1 put
the central question this way:
".. .if Christians of different races meet in fellowçhip within the
Churclh, cari they refuse to mix when they meet each other outside
the Church in the affairsof the world? Unity in Christian fellowship
must inevitably spread into fellowship in secular activity."
That is the heart of the statement?
Mr. GEIIICKE:That is true, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss : This you do agree with, Sir? And finally, in the conclusions
of the report under the heading of "Conclusion and Application", the last
condusion of al1on page 28:
"The problem of the person is more acutely encountered in race
relations.When the Negro or the Asiatic iç treated simply as an
instance of a racial type, he is merely representative, not unique as
an individual. His persona1 identity is lost. iri his racial status, and
his freedom is restricted by the generalizations about his race."
1 will pause there, i1 may, Sir. Do you understand this concIusion which
1 have justread in part and will complete, if I may, to reflect the view
held by Protestant Churches, perhaps includiiig yours, that the treat-
ment of a group as such tends to submerge the identity of the individual,
and that, in the words of this statemcnt, his personality becornes sub-
merged and he is not respected as a person?
Mr. GERICKE: Mr. President, that is always a danger, when you are
treating a group, to submerge the individual, and that isa problem of
race relations al1over the world.
Mr. GROSS:Would YOU state itSir,as one of the objectives and policies
perhaps ot the Dutch Reformed Church to encourage in the social life of
the Kepublic the regarding and treatment of individuals regardless of
race as individuals rather than as rnembers of groups?
Mr. GERICKE:Mr. President, it is very difficult to answer that question
because a man is a member of agroup, and you cannot easily dissociate
yourself froni the groupyou belong to. There is a danger in the world-in
South Africa, everywhere in the world-that in emphasizing the group
you forget about the individual; that is always a danger-rigkt thraugh
history this waç the case, but there is also the opposite possibility, Mr.
President ;by emphasizing the individual you Inay neglect the group. It
is a question of proper balance.
&Ir.G~oss: Do you find it considered as a niatter of Church doctrine
or policy to give a higher priority to the groilp or the individual as a
principle of religion or morality?46 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Jlr. GERICKEY : es, hir. President. The group is important, and more
important.
hlr.GROSS The group is more important than the individual?
hlr.GERICKEY : es. I1have to make sacrifices aan individual, 1have
to make those sacrifices in favour of the group. 1s that what you mean?
Alr. GROSSi:VeI1,1 would invite your own views, Sir. Of course the
question arises, then, perhaps you would comment on whether or not it
is relevant who determines what sacrifices shall be made?
hZr.GERICKE JI:r. President, perhaps I can refer to a statement by
Dr. Snetlage, who said: "Itisnot what is desired by the individual, but
what is desirable for the comrnunity as a whole that should be the guiding
rule in politics", an1agree with that çtaternent.
Mr. G~oss: Does the doctrinerequire, or if you wish to state it in terms
of policy of the Church or your own expert view, whichever you care to
employ, or both, that, with reference to the individual who is a member
the group level, that it aesocial objective to further the interest of the
individual and to allow him to accornplish his lifc in accordance with his
capabilities?
Alr.GERICKE &:Ir.President, am sorry, the question is not clear.
hfr. GROSST :he question is not clear-may 1 repeat it? Would it be
a matter of Church policy, if you care to express it in those terms, or
your own view whether an individual whose innate capacities are higher
than the level of his group, whether it is the objective of the Church and
of the social order to permithirn to accomplish his liie in accordance
with his innate capacity and ability? Do you understand my question,
Sir?
hir.GERICKEW : hether1 agree with the staternent that he should be
enablcd . ..
Mr.G~oss:To fulfil his capacity.
Mr. GERICKE Y:es, 1 agree with that.
Mr. GROSSH : e should not be called upon to make a sacrifice merely
because he is a member of a group-would you agree tothat?
Mr. GERICKE N:o,1cannot agreewith that, Mr. President-1 am sorry.
Every individual has to make sacrifices because he iç a mernber of a
group.
Mr. GROSS A:t what point does, iitis possible to answer thiç in the
terms in which we are discussing it this colloquy, an individual who is,
let us Say,qualified to reach the top of his professiowhat point is it
appropriate from the ethical and moral point of view to impose a ceiling
upon his accomplishment?
Mr.GERICKEN : O,that is not right, 1do not agree with that-thais
not ethical.
Rlr. GERICKE Yues.sagree with that aa poiicy?
Mr. G~oss:This is anaspect, is it not, of the job reservation Iaws?
Mr. GERICKE M:r.President, as 1explained before, if a man has a
ceiling in Johannesburg, and that man has no ceiling in Umtata, then it
is not an infringement on his rights.
hlr.GROSSA : re you through, Sir?
Alr.GERICKE Y:es.
Blr.GROSS 1sit not correct, Sir, that approximately two-thiofsthe
Bantu or African popuIation live in rural and urban "White areas"- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 47
many ofthem for generations-and that many of them aredetribalized?
1sthat a correct statement, Sir?
Mr. GEIIICKE M:r.Chairman, as 1explained tiefore, this is the aim and
goal of th(: policy of separate development, to make it possible for a man
to att- . the highest rung on the ladder in his own country, his own
homeland.
Mr.G~oss : Yes, 1think, with al1respect, and 1 believe it must fairly
be said,that you made it clear that t~at was the objective of separaie
development. However, 1 would invite your attention to my question
which 1 sliould Iike to attempt to clarify1am speaking now about the
individual.5, of whom,1 believe, there are some8 million, i1 understand
correctly, who live and work in so-cailed "White" urban and rural areas
-many of them have, for generationç, and mnny are de-tribalized and
have no homeland and they have been bom where they live. Now 1 am
referring t.othose persons and 1 am asking you, Sir, to express the view
of the Church, or your own view, or both, with respect to the ethical and
moral considerations pertaining to the imposition of ceilings upon the
accomplishment of such individuals, who spend their iives in the area
we are discussing.
Mr.GERICKEM : rPresident, as Iexplained yesterday,there are certain
hardships which have to be endured en route to the goal. 1want to quote
Dr. Snetlage again, a well-known writer on the subject of ethics: "Hard-
ships are justified when avoidinga greater hardship, and when there are
no other viable ways to avoid that greater hardship."
Now, as Ipointed out before, Mr. President,we are erecting a building.
The scaffolding which is necessary for that building, will disappear in
tirne. To complete the picture there are hardships to be endured on the
way.
Mr. GROSS: Would it not be then the essence of your analysis and of
your justification of the hardship, ayou Say, tliat the objective, tend
goal, is a total separation of the races in separate areas?
Mr. GERICKE: That the end is a total separation? I answered that
question befom-1 said, not necessarily.
Mr. GROS$I:f the goal is not the total separation of races, then,+by
necessary logic(1assume you will agree),there will always be non-Whites
working and living in the so-called "White areas", serving a "imite
economy". 1sthat not correct, Sir?
Mr. GEIIICKE That is correct.
Mr. GR(~ss:Now with respect to ihose individuals-if we may refer
to those and concentrate on them-what relevance is there to their lives
and fortunes iii the fact that, in homelands, something or other is
happening, that Whites are being frustrated or any other conditions
exist? What isthe ethical or moral explanation, or justification, for im-
posing ceilings upon these persons to whom we are referring?
Mr. GEIIICKE : OWare you referring to de-ti-ibalized...?
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GERICKE: Who have not any homeland?
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GEI~ICKE NOW,Mr. President, 1 think 1said before that when this
building-if you would allow me to cal1 it a building-is completed, we
a11hope and pray that it will be easier to make concessions.As a matter
of fact, that is what the Prime Minister said in 1961, in a speech in
Parliament, that certain regulationç will fa11away on the way. I do not48 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
know, AIr. President, w-hich regulations wilfaIlaway-I am not the
political prophet-but I hope that in the process of completing the
buildin certain regulations will become unnecessaryand will fa11away.
Alr.i ROSS:Dominie Gericke, in 1952 the Federal Mission Councilof
the N.G.K. (the Dutch Keformed Church) stated that its ideal-1 am
quoting frorn the record which appears in the "Racial Issue inSouth
Africa", published by the Dutch Reformed hlission Press in1953 (what
1 am referring to appears on pp. 4-8. but1 will just give avery brief
sentence): ".. . presupposes a long-term poliof 50,or even xoo years,
and. . .by no means excludes the employment of Native labour for the
economic machine of the Europeans for many years to corne." Would
you share that analysis of the Federal Mission Council of the N.G.K. in
the respect which 1have just quoted?
hlr. GERICKE:That 1 share the opinion, Mr. Presiclent, that it will
take 50 or IOO years?
Mr. GROSS:It may take 50 to IOO years.
Mr.GERICICE I:is very difficult to SMr.Presiclent. 1only hope that
it wiH not take as longas that. That is al1 1 can Say.
Mr. GKOÇS: If there isa reasonable possibility that it might take as
much 'a sgeneration or two, or three, would that affect your viewthe
view of the Church with respect to the lifting of ceilingstheoaccom-
plishment of the non-White because of his race?
Mr. GERICKE:Mr. President, if this would take 50 100 years, adjust-
ments will have to be made. That isrny opinion.
Mr. GROSS: Has the Dutch Reformed Church taken a public decision
with respect to the time dimension of this problem in supporting the
policy of separate development?
&Ir.GERICKE:&Ir. President, the Dutch Reformed Church has urged
the Government that the development of territories (1 am refernng to
the Bantu hornelands) must be speeded up.At the 1956 Conference at
Bloemfontein it was one of the resolutions to request the Governrnent to
speed up the process.
Mr. GKOSSM : ay 1askyou whether you had a reply from the Govern-
ment?
Mr. GERICKE:There is always a replp when yciu write a letter to the
Government. 1 have not seen thc letter, but 1have seen the speedinup
ofthe process. That is al1know.
Mr. GROSS : ould Ipress you again,Dominie Gerickc, for your view,
asan individual expert and churchman-ïvould your view with respect
to the moral or ethical implications of the Job Reservation Acts be
affected by your perception of howuch tirne it will take to accomplish
the end resultIf you felt that it would ta50 years, would you have a
different view about the matter tlian you do now?
hlr. GERICKE: Ifit would take 50 years, 1 am convinced in the course
of time that the Church\va ask for certain concessions.
hlr. GROSS:Would you care to advise the Court what public state-
ments, if any,the Church has made with respect to the matter of the
time element inaccomplishment, specifically, if any?
hlr. GERICKE: Eo. The Church did not mention a deadlineto the State
-the Church only asked the State to speed up the process, that is all.
JIr.GROSS W:ith respect to the views of the Dutch Reformed Church
regarding the matter of job reservation, still spcaking about that, 1
should likeif 1rnay to refer now to the Cottesloe consultation, aMr. WITSESSES AND EXPERTS 49
President, if1 may identify that for the record, from 7 to 14 December
1960 a consultation was held by representatives of the World Council of
Churches and the eight churches in South Africa that were members of
the World Council at that tirne; and is it not correct, Sir, that the latter
included then the Dutch Reformed Churches of the Cape and the Trans-
vaal and the NederduitsHeruormdeRe&? This consultation was helclat
Cottesloe in Johannesburg at that tirne, was it, Sir?
Mr.GERICKE :hat is correct, Mr. Prcsident.
Mr. GROSS:Were you present at that conference?
&Ir.GERICKE: No, 1 was not present.
hlr. G~oss: 1sit correct, so far as you know, that these three Dutch
Reformed Churches were fuUy rcpresented at that conference?
&Ir.GERICKE:They were represented in this sense, that a number of
leaders from aLithese Churches were invited to the conference.
AIr. G~oss: And they attended, did they, Sir?
&Ir.GERICKE : They attended the conference.
&Ir.GROSS: Certain resolutions were adopted bythe conference with a
minimum of 80 per cent. of those present voting in favour. Do you know
whether that is correct,Sir?
AIr. GERICKE:That is correct.
hlr.GRGSS1 :should Iike to read to you the resolution with regard to
certain eccinomic aspects of the ~iolicyof separate development or apart-
hcid, and request your opinion with respect to them. 1 first will read
resolution No. 13, which appears at page 75 of the report of the con-
sultation, which reads as follows: "The present system ofjob reservation
must give ivay to a more equitable system of labour which safeguards the
jnterest ofdi concerned."
Would you Say that that is an objective which the Dutch Reformed
Church agrees with ?
>Ir. GERICKE: JIr.President, 1have alreadp given rny opinion on this.
When looking at the totaI picture, onemust judge this system in theIight
of the possible alternatives. If a better and a reliable alternative could
be found every South African would rejoice, 1 am sure of that. The
CottesIoe consultation did not suggest such an alternative.
Mr. G~oss: 1sit known to you to be a fact whether the World Council
of Churches has made other pronouncements on this subject, or perhaps
it would be fairer to ask whether you are familiar with the report of the
Second Assembly of the Worlcl Council of Churches of Auguçt xg54?
Rlr.GERICEC :1 have read it-a long time ago.
Mr. GROSS : think,Mr. Prcsident, I willnot press the witness with
respect to this resolution. would, however, like to revert at this time to
the Cottesloe consultation, since there are one or two other matters there
ivhich 1 should like to have in the rccord at this point.
Inaddition to the resolution No. 13,which 1have read, with regard to
job reservation, the Cottesloe consultation adopted the following resolu-
tion, No. 15:
"It is Our conviction that the right to own Iand, wherever he is
dorniciled, and to participate in the government of his country is
part of the dignity of the adult man, and for this reason a pollcy
which permanently denies to non-U'liite people theright ofcollab-
oration in the government of the country of which they are citizens
cnnnot bc justified."50 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Would you, Sir, comment with respect to this resolution. Beiore you do
so, however, may 1, for the sake of completeness and to rernind you, Sir,
refer to the fact that in approving this resolution No. 15, whic1 have
just read, a special statement was made by the representatives of the
N.G.K. as follows:
"We do not consider the resolutions adopted by the consultation
as in principle incompatiblewith the above statement [which 1shaii
read]. In voting on resoluti15, the delegations of the two Churches
[that is, the Cape and Transvaal] recorded their viewas follows:
'The undersigned voted in favour of point 15,provided it be
clearly understood that the participation in tlie government of
this country refersinthe case of White areas to the Bantu, who
are domiciled in the declared M'hite areas, in the sense that they
had no other homeland.' "
This was signed by the delegations of the N.G.K. of Cape Province and
Transvaal, and 1should hke to ask whether this reflects the viewpoint,
the policy, of the Dutch Reformed Church, or whether pou, asan individ-
ual or an expert, wish to express an opinion thereon.
Mr. GERICKE:hlr. President, there are two points. First of dl, that
the right to own land is part of the dignity of an adult man. I have to
comment on that point first. Mr. President, if this is true it may seem to
indicate that this stntement implies that human dignity becornes im-
possible where you have nationalization of land, or communal land
ownership. 1am not prcpared to subscribe to çuch a statement or such an
inference. That is the first point.
Mr. GROSSD : o you wish to continue or may 1 ask you a question
about that? Whichever you prefer, Sir.
Mr. GERICKE l':es, please do.
Mr. GROS:Apropos of the testirnony which you have just given, if 1
understood you correctly you referred to nationalization of Iand or
communal ownerçhip. LVhat opinion would you express with respect
to land which is neither nationalized nor comrnunally owned but
the ownership of which is limited bylaw, or reserved by law, to Whites
only?
Mr.GERICKE: Mr. President, do you refer to the Bantu people of South
Africa? Because that is the point here. Through all the yearç they have
been used to communal land ownership, as you know. 1 do not know
Africa.eThisis for the Bantu people to decide. But supposing the positionh
was open, Say,in the Orange Free State, for Bantus to biiy land, it would
be anly just that the position woulbe open for White people tobuy Iand
in the Transkei. That would be just, not so? I am asking this question. If
White people with capitalawiUngo to the Transkei, which is svery beauti-
ful country, asyou know, and wiü buy up the land. You cannot allow
that. But if you do aliow the Bantu people to buy land in the Orange
-ree Atate then you have to aUow White people to buy land in the
Transkei.
Mr. GERICKE: OT:here musttbepabout six, seven or eight thousand.
Mr. G~oss: What is the total population, do you know offhand, Sir?
Mr. GERICKB: About two million. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS gr
Nr. GROSS:And in the urban areas, what is the ratio of the non-White
to the Imite? Can you teli the Court?
Mr.GERICKE:NO,1am sorry, 1 havenot seeii the exact figures.
Mr. GROSS:The figure which 1 suggested ta you earlier, which is the
figure lvhich1 believe is reflected in the record, is the ratio of something
Iike two-thirdsof the Black population of South Africa live in the urban
areas, appi-oximately eight million perçons according to my information.
It may not be correct, Sir. If the figureis wrong, 1 cannot vouch for it,
if you do not know it, I will not press the question.
There is, holvever, no doubt,is there, thata substantid majority of
the population of the urban areas is non-White? Do you have that
knowledge 7
Mr. GERICKE:Yes, that is so.
>Ir. GROSS: Now, in connection with the balance ofjustice-and we
are talking now, 1think, are we not, Sir, about the morality and equities
in justice, of your view on this matter and of the Church-is it then
entirely a question, in your view, of reciprocity lvhich accounts for the
fact that no non-White inthis majority, in the iirban areas, is permitted
to own land or acquire the fce to real estate?
hlr. GERICKE : es,Mr. President, it is a questioofreciprocity.
hfr. GROSS:And is it then possible that the Church would have a
different view if the relative numbers were before it, with respect to the
number of Whites in the Black areas who rvould be affected and the
number of Blacks in the White areas ~ho would be affected? Would that
make a difference with respect to your view or the view of the Church?
bir. GERICKE:Rfr. President, 1 am sorry but I am not clear on this
question.
Mr. G~oss: The nurnbers invoIved are quite disparate, are they not,
Sir? There are some millions of non-Whites in the White areas, so-called,
many of tliem permanently resident there. There are some thousands of
Whites in the Transkei. This is correct, is it not, Sir? say does the
or morality of this reciprocity upon which you rely to justify the policy
in question?
Mr. GERICKE:1 do not see how it has sny bearing.
Mr. GROSS:Mr. President, 1 gather that, with your permission, Sir,
the tvitnes~would like to refcr to the report which you nonr have had a
chance to study. 1s that correct, Dominie Gericke?
Mr. GERICXE Y:es, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: With the President's permission, would you have any
comrnents which you wish to make with respect to the matter we dis-
cussed?
The PRESIDENT H:e would like to identify some passage he was
previously referring to?
XIr.G~oss: Ires. Mr.President.
Jlr. GERICKEO : n page 14 of this samgreport-
"That the founding and development of independent indigenous
churclies for the purpose of evangelizing the native races of South
Africa was both necessary [and this is important] and in accordance
ivith our understanding of the nature of the Church of the Lord
Jesus on earth and has been richly blessed in the many years that
have yassed."52 SOUTH WEST AFRIC-4
Mr. G~oss: Thank you. 1 am certain that the Court wili appreciate
the elucidation. 1s there any furlher reference you wish to make to the
report, because 1 do not intend to refer to it again?
Mr. GERICKE : O, Blr. President.
Mr. G~oss:As we draw towards the close of this examination, Dominie
Gericke, there are several points which pcrhaps should be or might well
be clarified with respect, first, to certain testimonyou gave yesterday
in the verbatini, on page 34, supra,in response to a question addressed
to the witness by the honourable President, which 1 take the liberty of
quoting: "Well, the question is-in your opinion, does prejudice enter into
the present separation of the churches into the mother church and the
daughter churches?" And the witness's ançwer is as follows:
"Mr. President, rny opinion is that we have passed that stage of
prejudice in Our church. Itmust have euisted, 1 think it did exista
century ago, but we have passed that stage. We believe in scparate
churches for other reasons than prejiidice."
And, then, inorder just to complete your recollection. Dominie Gcricke,
on the samc page of this transcript, in response to another question by the
honourable President, you stated:
"Mr. President, 1 am so grateful that the one thing happening in
South Africa is that prejudice isdying out. In my own Churcl~,and
I know that the same thing is happening in other churches, we are
prcnching against prejudice, and I think we have made a lot of
headway. [And then you went on to Say, if you recall, Sir:] 1 will
not Say that there is no prejudice in South Africa, asa matter of
fact,I do not think there is a country where pou do not findpreju-
dice,but if 1had to answer the question, what isthe mainthing that
happened during the past IO, 15,zo and more pars in South Africa,
1 would Say, itis the dying out of prejudice in that country. That is
my impression."
1wanted, witli theCourt's perniission, tobe certain that you had that
response clcarlyand fully in mind.
Would you agree, Dominie Gericke, that the ana1ysis upon which that
testimony isreflected would enter rather substantially in the deterrnina-
tion as to whether or not the pobcy of apartheid is moral or conducive
to the social progress othe inhabitants? Do you understand my question,
Sir?
&Ir.GERICICE Y:s, Sir,
Air. G~oss: lirould you express your opinion concerning the validity,
from a moral, ethical point of view, and the point of view of social
progress, of the policy of apartheidif this xssuniption, which you have
testified to, were incorrect? Would you care to answer that?
&Ir.GEHICKE Ifthe assumption?
Mr. GROS: That prejudice is dying out and is not, as 1 understood
your testimony, a major element inthe situation in South Africa at the
present tirne?
Mr. GEIIICK E:ould that have ... 1am sorry.
Mr. Giioçs: It is quital1right. 1will try to state it briefIt.seems to
me, with al1 respect, that the pointis crucial and vital. The church has
supported the policy of separate development or apartheid-is that
correct? WITNKSSES AND EXPERTS 53
Mr. GERICKE T:at is correct.
hlr.G~oss: 1sthe support of that policy by the church-does that
support refiect the analysis or premise that prejudice doesnot exist or is
dying out and that apartheid does not reflect prejudice, or is not mo-
tivated by prejudice? 1s this a correct statement? .
Mr. GER~CKE Yes, that isa correct staternent.
Mr. GRO~S O:f yoiir point oview, Sir?
Mr. GEKICKE :es.
hlr.GROSS :he question 1 addressed to you \sraswhether the policy of
apartheid, from a moral point of vicw and from the point ofview of the
promotion of the social, moral \rieIfare of the inhabitants, woufbe af-
fected for goodor il1on the basis of the opinion concerning the existelice
ofprejudice in the Republic?
Mr.GERICKE P rcjudice can afEectany policy, Mr. Presiclent, and can
spoilany system.
Mr. CROSS: To the extent that 1would not want ta go too far in a
hypothetical direction, 1 think however that it is fair,perhaps, ifthe
President agrecs, to ask you whether the yrt:mise, from bvhich you
proceed-that prejudice isdying out-is ivhatplays a part in the support
of the poljcy of apartheid or separate development-that premise, does
that play a part inthe support for that policy?
The PRESIDENT D:O y011understand the question?
butritis nclt clear tme,residentI am sa sorry. I understand the wordç
Mr. G~oss: Perhaps we may approach itfrnm an entirely different
point of view. 1 am sorry, Sir. $Ir. President,Iapologize for my obtuse
form of questioning.
1would iisk you, Dominie Gericke, to espressyour opinion concerning
the foUowing statement by Dr. B. B. Keet in his work which 1 citecl
yesterday Whitller South Aj~ica?,as follows, on page 13.Dr. Keet says:
"It is indeed tragicto see how or1all sideç colour has become the
dominating factor in OUT assessment of human relationships. It is
hardly an exaggeration to Say that a man's ivorth is often measured,
not by his innatequalities,but by the colour of his skin. That this is
realiy Our attitude needs no proof. Everyonc who lives in South
Africa is aware of iand yet there aregood Christian Africaners wlio
choose to speak of a 'wholesome' colour consciousness that wouId
enable all, even tiie coloured raceto be proud of their colour. Siich
people live in a dreani worldof wishful thinking."
Would you expressyour opirijon concerning the vaIidity or otherwise
of the role lvhichDr. Keet ascribes to the "consciousness" of colour, as
he calls it, in the assessment of human relationshipsin South Africa?
hlr.GERICKEn :lr.I1resident, 1do not agree with Dr. Keet that co!o~r
bas-bccom a corninating factor in the arrangernent of affairs iSouth
Afr~ca.It is less of a domiiiating factor, Ivasa very dominating factor
in days gorie by.
Mr. G~oas: At thc present tirne, would you express your view con-
cerning th: extent to which, let us çay, the Jobs lieservation Act5
IegisIation icflects a fear or a concern or prejudicor any of thesc with
respect to the compctition of the non-White?
Mr. GERICKE :r. President, 1 have given my opinion on the Jobs
Reservation. Iwant to stand by that opinion.I have no other opinionon
the Jobs Reservation Act.54 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. G~oss: You feel that you have responded to the question 1 have
just açked in other terms.
Mr. GERICKE Y:es.
&Ir. CROSS: Weil, could 1 ask you, Sir, whether the problem of the
political rights of then-Wtites is based upon, or does it reflect in any
way, in your view, an attitude of White towards non-White based upon
colour distinctions?
hlr. GERXCK El. President, I must stress this point.
As 1 have said before, one must look at the whole picture. South
Africa is trying to supply homelands for the different groups because
South Africabelieves that this is the best arrangement. Now, if you want
to make this arrangement, narnely to supply homelands for the different
groups, it stands to reason tliat in the meanti~neyou cannot open al1the
gates. Supposing we were to open the gates in South West Africa-for
example, so that the Ovambo would be allowed to buy land in Windhoek,
or to vote in Windhoek-then you would have to dow White people
to buy land in Ovarnboland and to vote in Ovamboland. This must be
seen also as an historical development. The tenitories set aside for the
Bantu people at the present moment were the same temtories occupied
by these people 50 yeaxs ago. Then came the industrialization of the
country and the Bantu people came to the cities. They came from al1
parts of Southern Africa and from beyond Ourboundaries.
Now, if you had to open the gatesand give political rights, theri it will
never be possible to work out this policy of separate deveIopment.
Mr. G~oss: Would you apply what you have just testified to, or does
it apply in terms of your testimony, to the millions of non-Whites who
reside permanently in the so-called White area?
Mr. GERXCKM E:r. President, yes, on condition that you qualify the
word "permanent".
Mr. GROSSL : et us Say, foi life, if you wish to.
Mr. GERICKEY : es. 1 have grown up in South Africa and I frequently
go to all the territorieand to our mission churches in the citie and I
meet many Bantu people. hfr.President, 1must testify that 1have never
met a de-tnbalized Bantu in South Africa. They a11belong to a tribe.
Mr. G~oss: Do you regard, Sir, that the Dutch Reformed Church, in
its support of the policy of separate developrnent and its influence upon
the Government to further that programme, regards the non-White who
resides or isdomiciled in the White area-urban or rural-as a citizen
of the Republic?
Mr. GERICKE A:Sa citizen of the particular group?
Mr. GROSSO :f the Republic?
&Ir.GERICKEN : O.
Mr. GROSSY : OUcannot answer? 1am sorry.
hfr.GERICKE M: FPresident, may I givean example? Duringthe recent
elections in the Basutoland there were thousands of Basutos in Johanneç-
burg in the Free State working on farms but whe~ithis election took place
in Basutoland-which, as you know, was a British Protectorate-these
Basutos ali voted in this particdar electionin 13asutoland. They main-
tained their unity with Basutoland as BasutosNow, the same happened
at the election as far as the Transkei is concerned.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, 1 am not certain that we understand each other in
terms of my intended question. 1 am referring, if you will please bear
with me, to an individual non-White who, let us Sahas been bom in the WITIUESSESAND EXPERTS 55
outskirts of Johannesburg, just to take the place arbitrarily, has been
brought up there,has never been to a so-calied"homeland", and now
works theri: and presumably will die there-taking such an individual-
they exist, do they, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE Y:es.
Mr. G~oss: Taking such an individual, non-White, in that circum-
stance-does the Dutch Reformed Church in itssupport of the doctrine of
separate development regard that individual non-White, asa citizen of
the Republic of South Africa?
Mr. GERICKE M:r. President(ifyou will permit me),if youdo not look
at thispicturc asa whole it is irnpossibIe to find a solution. What would
happe11if you had free franchise in Johannesburg. allow the Bantus who
live in Johannesburg to have a vote there and yciuwere to give the same
right to the Whites in the Bantu hornelands, then to me it is clear that
it wouldbe impossible to carry out this policyof separate development
and give each race his own homeland. It would mean anintegrated White
section of the country and an integrated Black section of the country.
Mr. GROÇS: Sir, 1 now, still within the area and directed to the point
of your testimony yesterdap that the Dutch Reformed Church supports
the policy of separate development and urges the Government to ad-
vance and promote it-in that context,I now ask the view of the Church
and, if you care to express it, your view as an expert concerning the
following quotation by Dr. Keet in the same book on page 47,the volume
WltitherSo~thAfricd, and 1.iviUread jt with the President's permjssion
slo wly :
"The core of the political problem is the question of the vote, the
declared policyof Our country expressecl by the (dominant) White
vote is that of apartheid. It does grant the non-Whites sorne Say in
the Government of the Country but in such a way that for the
purpose of exercising their rights, they are treatas a group while
the Whites are treated as individuals and oia geographical basis."
1 will pause there and ask whether you agree with that statement by
Dr. Keet which 1 have just read.
Mr. GERICKEN :O,I do not agree with that, Rfr. President. 'llihen
Dr. Keet differentiatesinthat way, namely that in the case of the Whites
they are treated as individuals and in the caseofthe non-White people
they are treated as a group,1 cannot agree with hi~n.
Mr. GROÇS :You would not express it that way, Sir? WouId you express
your view with respect to the extent to ïvhica non-White is regarded as
an individual from the standpoint of franchise voting rights?
Mr. GER~CKE M: rPresident, am sorry ...
Mr. GROSS: Does an individual ... I gather you were going to ask me
to clarify the question, Sir,id not want to interrupt you.Ifan individ-
ual non-White has achieved a degree of educatjon and capacity, let us
Say to practise law, or to preach the gospel, or teach, andis therefore
qualified as an individualby normal standards to exercise the right of
citizenship, including the right to vote,s the ])utch Reformed Church
have a policy with respectto supporting his right to voteas a citizen of
the Republic given his individual qualification?
Mr. GERICKE T:he Dutch Reformed Church is infavour of the principle
ot separate development. Now, the Dutch Reformed Churcl-i has not
given any view in this particular instance ofa man who has become a56 SOUTH UTESTAFRICA
minister and here 1 can only givemy opinion.Mr. President, ifthe policy
of separate development is to be carried out and you have open franchise
in the White sector of South Africa, then the homelands wiii have tobe
open too and then the ultimate picture will be impossible. Supposing
there were political nghts of the kind you were referring to in the Free
State and a Bantu could vote and buy land there, etc., then it stands to
reason that in the Transkei voting must be open to White people, and
the acquiring of land must be open to White people, and naturally they
are going to takefulladvantage of that-the people who have the capital
to do so. Let us move away from South Africa just for a moment; in
South West Africa there is no law prohibiting a coloured nian oi Ovambo
to buy Iand in therural areas at the present moment-no Iaw prohibiting
that-but aç faras Iunderstand hardly any Ovambo or coloured man or
Herero is making use of the privilege of buying land, Say, in Keetmans-
hoop district.
Mr. GROSS :ir, we have had testimony and evidence with respect to
the rights and limitations of the sort you mention and 1would like if 1
may, with the President's permisçion, to corne backta the question 1had
intended to pursue with you. 1 am referring again to the policy and the
basis of the policyofseparate development as it applies to an individual
non-White who spends his entire life in the so-called White area. One of
the difficultieI have in explaining myself,1 fear, is that when we try to
focus on that individual as such, we hear usually about reciprocity or
homelands but the individual to which I refer and which 1 request, if
you wjll be good enough, to express the view of the Church and your
view as to his moral welfare and his socialprogress isan individual person
who spendshis entire life living, working and bringing up a family in the
so-called White area-what of that individual? This is the person1 am
talking about-how is he affected by homelands or reciprocity or
whether a vote is denied some place else?
Mr. GERICKE M:r. President, in answering this question 1must raise
a point. If the policy of separate development is to be carried out, you
have to take groups into consideration-individuals living, Say, in
Johannesburg, are connecfed to their group in the homeland and the idea
of this policy is to supply al1the priviiegeç in a Bantu homeland.
Mr. G~oss: Whether or not hein fact ever returns;ifhe does not return
or has no prospect of returning or even going to perhaps the homeland
he has never seen, how does that affect his life-that there are rights
granted or withheld in some distant place in which he does not live and
does not work-do 1 make my question clear?
Air.GERZCKE : r. President, you see what my problem is-suppose
he should get political rights; suppose the one-and-a-half million Bantus
in Johannesburg should get full political rights in Jahannesburg-couId
this policy of separate development be carried out?
Mr. GROSS: Are you referring, Sir, to separate development with
respect to the individuals living in Johannesburg?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes.
Rlr.GROSS: With respect to separate developmerit, is the concept
appliedto Whites and non-Whites living and working side by side in the
same economy; does the doctrine of separate development also apply to
that situation?
Mr. GERICKE: Yes, it does.
Mr. GROSS A:nd now, if we refer to that aspecofthe poIicyof separate WITNESSHS AND EXPERTS 57
development in that particular context-would you be good enough to
explain what the major incidents or consequences arewhere the White
and the non-White, living side by side and working in the same cconomy,
are granted dissimilar privileges on the basisof race. What is there in
respect of the Church support of separate development in that context
which in yciurview justifies the deprivation of the right and the limitation
of the freedom?
Mr. GERICKE M:r. President, if separate development could not give
any promise for the eventual self-realization, also politically, for every
person in South Africa-if it could not giveany promise for the realiza-
tion of self-developrnent and self-realization, also politically,then
separate development is unacceptable. It must lead tothat situation of
equality.
Mr. G~oss : If self-development and self-realizntion of everyindividual
is the objectivethen, in the contexof your reply, would it not presuppose
total separation of the races geogrsphically?
Mr. GERICKE M r. President, my answer to that one was-not neces-
sarily. May 1explain-1 think 1 did explain it partly yesterday-lvfien
this building iscampleted, when we have the homelands for every tribe
and every race and when these homelands are deïreloped and as you know
they are being developed at high speed now-wlien these homelands are
enlarged, and they are being enlarged consider;~bly at the present mo-
ment, when this picture iscompletcd and there still remain people, Say in
Johannesburg, concessions, as 1 have said before, will have to be made
for those people politicaily and otherwise-1 can give no other answer
to that question.
Blr. G~oss: It'ell1 will not press you, Sir.1 think that perhaps we
have coveri:d that as adequately as seerns possible under the circumstan-
ces. I should like to rnove on to a conclusion, Blr. President. The refer-
ences 1 shallmake are two-one to the World Councjl of Churches and
to the British Council of Churches and ask in eachcaseyour opinion with
respect to whether the Dutch Reforrned Church agrees or disagrees with
the pronouncements of these Protestant Churches and if you wish your
own persona1 view with respect thereto. The first ia resolution adopted
by the second assembly of the World Council of Churches which met in
Evanston, IUinois, in the United States in Aubwst xg54, and the first
resolution reads asfollows:
"The second assembly of the World Council of Churches declares
its conviction that any form of segregation based on race, colour or
ethnic origin iç contrary to the Gospel, and is incompatible with the
Christian doctrine of Man and with the nature of the Church of
Christ. The Assembly urges the Churches within its membership to
renounce al1forrns of segregation or discriminationand to work for
theira.bolition within their own life and within society."
I pause thare, and ask you, if you will, Sirto i~idicate to the Court the
extent to which, if any,this reflects thedoctrine or approach of the
Dutch Reformed Church and your own view if jrou care to express it.
Mr. GERICKE:Mr. President, the D.R.C. does not agree with that
statement.
Mr. GROSS :or reasons which you consider that ÿou have already
explained in this testimony?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes.9 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. G~oss: Or do you wish to elaborate with specificreference to this
resolution, or have you saidail you wish to say on the matter, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE:No, 1 think 1 have said what I want to Say.
Mr. G~oss: That is only a portion of that resolution;1shall not read
the rest; I do not think it affects the significance of the first part with
which you have expressed disagreement in any event.
The second resolution reads as foUows, and 1 shoüId like similarly to
ask your view concerning the D.R.C. attitude toward the policy and
your own, if you wish to express it:
"This Second AssernbIy of the World Council of Churches re-
cognizes that one of the major problemsofsocial justice in situa.tions
involving racial and ethnic tensions is that of securing for all the
opportunities for the free exercise of responsibie citizenship,ford
effective participatioby way of franchise in both local and central
government activity. It commends this matter to the attention of
allChristian people forsuch action as, under God, they may be led
to take in order to secure the solution of this problem."
That is the end of the resolution. Would you comment on that, Sir, if
you will?
Mr. GERICKE: Mr. President, would Mr. Gross just read the first
sentence again?
Mr. G~oss: Of course, if the President permits:
"This Second Assembly of the World Council of Churches re-
cognizes that one of the major problems of social justice in situations
involving racial and ethnic tensions is that of securing forl1 the
opportunities for the free exercise of responsible citizensand,for
effective participatioby way of franchise in both localand central
government activity."
Mr. GERICKE: Ifthat was the truth, and the whole truth,and nothing
but the truth, the unqualified truth, then it would be very difficult to
understand the position in the United States of America. There you have
free franchise, but you still have tensions, you still have your problems
in LOSAngeles. If free franchise was the cure-al1 for tensions, then one
should not have tensions in the United States of America.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, do you wish to comment any further on this?
Mr. GERICKE:NOthank you, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: With respect to the situation in South Africa, would you
care to elaborate on what you have prevjously hrid to Say on the subject
of voting rights or citizenship rights in the context of this resolution?
Mr. GERICKE: NO elaboration, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSSI:s it correct that the Dutch Reformed Churches of the
Cape and of Transvaal terminated their membership in the World
Council of Churches in 19617
Mr. GERICKE:That iscorrect, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSS: DO YOU think, asan expert and Churchrnan, that a reason,
or perhaps the chief reason,which caused these Dutch Reformed Churches
to disaffiliate from the World Council-was their disageement with the
World Council on the racial question?
Mr. GERICKE:Mr. President, there were two main reasons for this. At
that time in 1961 the Church was nearing the end of a long road, the
Dutch Reformed Churches in South Africa-the long road of union. We
had five different White Dutch Reformed Churches in South Africa: one WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 59
in the Traiisvaal, Free State, Natal, Cape Province and South West
Africa. Two of these provincial churches belonged to the World Council
of Churches, the one in the Cape and the one in Transvaal. The other
three did not belong to the World Council of Churches. Now the World
Council of Cliurches has in its constitution a section which makes pro-
vision for a church to join this Council as a church, and notafsection
of a church. At that time we were nearing the goal of uniting the five
separate provincial churches, and in order to make this possible, and in
view of the fact that some ofthe other provincial churches were against
joining the World Council of Churches,we had to terminate our member-
ship. This union took place a year or two later, That is the one reason.
Mr. President, another reason for this resolution must have been the
inffuence ofthe Cottesloe deliberations and what happened as a result of
this conference. There was widespread tension and disagreement with
the attitudeof the World Council of Churches.
1think these are the two main reasons for this resolution.
Mr. G~oss: In this latter reason that you described, is it correct, Sir,
that the N.G.K. of the Transvaal at its synod held in April of 1961,when
it decided to resign from the World Council, adopted a resolution that
its delegates to the Cottesloe consultation had voted in favour of most
of the Cottesloe resolutions which were at variance with the poIicy of the
N.G.K. and were embarrassing to the Governmtlnt, and that the synod
resolved that the "highest interests of non-Whiti:s can best be furthered
through the policy of differentiation", and in the sarne resolution that
support was pledged for total territorialseparatioare you farniliar with
that resolution, Sir, of April961?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes.
Mr. GROSÇ:ISthis acorrect rendition or surninary of the resolution?
Mr. GERICKE: Mr. President, I read about that resolution in the
newçpapers; asyou know, 1am not a member of the Transvaal Synod-1.
am a member of the Cape Synod-but 1take it to be correct.
Mr. GROSS:The reference, Sir, for further checking, if you wish, is
A Suvvey of Race Relation 1-961,published in Johannesburg, and the
resolution is referretoat page 67 of that volume.
The Capr:Synod of the N.G.K., 1 believe, if not mistaken, met in
October of 1961, as I Say, and it rejected the Cottesloe resolutions as
with the N.G.K.'s traditional poIicy; is that a correct version?nflict
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is correct.
Mr. G~ocs: That is to be found in the same volume, at page 68. The
actions takm in both cases therefore would seem to reflect, at least as
one of the principal reasons for the disaffiliatioa,difference between
these two churches and the World Council with respect to the racial
questions-is that not correct, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE That is correct.
Mr. G~oss: In connection with the attitude,the policy, of the Dutch
Reformed C:hurch,would you feel it just to Say that it is pretty much
alone among churches in itç support of racial segregation or racial
separation in terms of church structure and apartheid?
Mr. GERICKEM : r. President, the Dutch Reforrned Church is not alone
-1 am referring you to the Reformed Ecumenical Synod of Grand
Rapids held two years ago.
Mr. GROSS:Perhaps the Court is not familiar with that . ..60 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
RIr.GERICKE:alr. President, there was one resolution passed by that
conference at Grand Rapids, U.S.A., which said that the policy of
separate development is not un-Christian, whereas the World Council of
Churches saysby implication that it is un-Christian, and unscriptural.
Mr. GROSS:Can you advise the Court, Sir, what churches or groups
of churches were represented in the conference to which you have just
referred?
Mr. GERICKE:It is a number of Reformed Churches in the United
States, the Keformed Church in Holland, 1 believe there are a few
churches in England; it is a large bodI;cannot give you full particulars,
but 1 can supply them to the Court if you wish it.
Rlr. GROSS: Just a matter of evaluating. Are you familiar, Sir, with
the resolutions adopted by the National Council of Churches of Christ
in the United States?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes; of the United States?
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir-are you familiar with these resolutions?
Mr. GERTCKEN : o,1am not farniliar with that.
hlr. GROSS:You would not be prepared, therefore,to comment with
respect ta the difference between their attitude and that of the con-
ference?
Mr. GERICKE:NO, hlr.President, 1am not farniliar with the resolutions
of the National Council of Churches in the United States.
Mr. GROSS : re you familiar,Sir, withthe resolutions adoptedby the
British Council of Churches?
ilIr. GERICKE:1 am familiar with these.
Mr. G~oss: Are you familiar with the British Council of Churches'
statement in 1954 ,s follows-1 quote from the book published for the
British Council entitledThe Future ofSouthAfrica, A Study by British
Christians, published for the 13ritish Council of Churches in London in
1965; page gr in this work reads as follows-in 1954 the British Council
of Churches expressed its belief that-
"the policy of the South African Government, as expressed in the
Native Resettlement Act and the Bantu Education Act, whereby it
is propoçed to ensure the mental as weil as the physical segregation
of theBantu 'in his own cornmunity' and to deny him any place
'in the European community above the level of certain formç of
labour' is not only an offence against humarights,but also against
the Divine Law as set forth in the Bible".
Has that statement by the British Council of Churches been previously
called to your attention, Sir?
Mr. GERICKE :es.
Mr. GROSS:Would y011care to express the view of the Dutch Reformed
Church with respect to it, or ÿour own viewifyou wish?
Mr. GERICKE M:r. President, first of Imust say 1 do notagree with
that statement, especiallywhen that statement says that thiiscontrary
to the Bible,If 1may Say so, Mr. President, the way the Bible has been
implemented in that particular statement or statements by the British
Council of Churches-1 can never agree with i. 1can give you esamples,
if you want me to.
Mr.GROSSI:f you tvish, Sir, anthe President permits, 1feel that you
rnay answer the question.
Mr. GERTCKEM : r. President, one of the statements is that the policy WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 61
of apartheid is a sin against the Holy Ghost. AmIcorrect in saying that?
Mr. GROSS:Are you referring, Sir,to anything 1 have read?
Mr. GERICKE: NO, am I correct.. .?
Mr. GROÇÇ: In this quotation?
Mr. GERICKE : ot in that particular quotationbut the statement by
the British Council of Churches which says apartheid is a sin against the
Holy Ghost .Mr. President, now when the churches make astatement like
that, one tliing is certain, and that is that they are not taking into con-
sideration biblical principles,because, according ta the Bible-St,
Matthew, the 12th Chapter: "The sin against the Holy Ghost is com-
mitted when a man ascribes to the devil the work of the Holy Ghost."
That is the only sin against the Holy Ghost that the Bible knows of, and
1 am now quoting the words of the Lord Jesus. That is what he said
about the sin againçt the Holy Ghost (Matthew, Chap. 12).Now, how a
church body, consisting of ministers who should know their Bible, could
make a statement like that-"it isa sin against the Holy GhostJ'-is very
difficult fore to understand. That is how 1 am referring to what ÿou
just said, i.e., that thisstaterneis in accordance with the Bible.
hlr.G~oss: Have you finished?
Mr. GERICKE Y:es.
Mr. GROSS : he reference (unless therbc any confusion of the record
on this) was the reference by the British Council of Churches to the
policy of the South African Government as expressed intwo designated
bits oflegislation; they made a Kesettlement Act and the Bantu Educa-
tion Act-1 just wanted that clarified for the recorIn 1960,the British
Council reaffirrned (this is from thesame page, from 91 of this work)
"its wholehearted support for the statement on race relations made by
the Second Assembly of the World Council of Churches, which includes
the declaration that (and 1 quote from the Second Assembly resolution):
"segregation, in al1its forms, is contrato the gospel and içincompatible
with the Christian doctrine of man anBwith the nature of the Church of
Christ. The Assembly urges the Churches within its membership to
renounce all forms of segregation or discrimination and to work for their
abolition within their own life and within society.You may recall, Sir,
that 1 read this before, bu1 am putting it into the record again because
itreflects in this contexthe British Council of Churches' affirmation of
support for that resolution. Do you have any further comment with
respect to this quotation from the Assernbly of the FVorId Council of
Churches?
Mr. GERICKE: Mr. President, with due respect, 1 think 1 gave my
Church's opinion on separate deveIopment and also my own. Now, I
cannot see the point of pressing thiç again and again, iI may Say so. I
have given myTChurch's opinion and that is directly against the view of
the British Council of Churches.1think 1 have given my opinion on that
already.
The PRESIDENT: Your answer is the same no matter how many
Churches or Church councils express fheir views in similar tenns?
Mr. GERI~SKET :he answer is the same, yes.
Mr. GROSS:Then you are beyond persuasion, Sir? 1would like to ask
one final question and this relates not to the çtatements by sister chur-
ches, but by, again, finally, Dr. Keet, of your own Church. Tt appears on
page 80 of the same volume and reads as iollo~vs:
"As everyone knows, South Africa, with lierpolicy of apartheid, SOUTH WEST AFRICA
stands quite alone today in a world by no means kindly disposed
towards her. It is not oniy with Liberalist, or even Comrnunist,
opinion that we are in conflict, but with ail Christian trends that
approach the question of race relations from a biblical standpoint.
We are out of step with the universal Christian Church. At the
present moment, therefore, we are faced with a choice of whether
we will continue on the road we haveaken and defy the whole world
and the whole Church, or whether we will seek a better way-one
that is more inaccord with our vocation as a Christian nation."
And it içmy final question to you, Sir, to ask whether you have, in your
own estimation sufficiently adverted to this rnatter, or whether you have
any further comment to make?
Mr. GERICKE M:r. President,1 have already indicated that South
Africa is not standing alone an1 think Dr. Keet isnot correct tvhen he
says that. 1 have referred to the Ecumenical Synod. That is my first
remark.
When Dr. Keet says, "We are defying the whole world", if 1 may Say
so (let me Say this as a friendof Dr. Keet and one who admires Dr.
Keet-he ismy old professor), when he says, "We are defying the whole
world", it is a very unkind and a very unchristian remark. We are not
defying the world-we arefollowing the road which we consider as being
the right road. We are not walking on that road as people who are cock-
sure of thernselvesOn the "road of progress", the cocksure man is a very
dangerous bed-fellow, but we are following this road because itis Our
conviction. Mr. President, we are not defying the world. We are seeing
this road as the only road to the solution, that is all. Thank you, Mr.
President.
Mr. GROSS : r. President, may1,with respect, thank the witness for
his patience, andthe honourable President, and that concludes mycross-
examination.
The PRESIDENT :ertain Members of the Court desire to ask questions
of the witness.SirGerald?
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAURIC MErGericke, 1wouId be grateful if you
could clarifya little the relations between the Dutch Reforrned Church
and the South African Government. In general, would it be true to Say
that the policies and actions of the Dutch Reformed Church are entirely
its own, or are they in any way inspired by the South African Govern-
ment-or, to put the matter a little differently, has the South African
Government, which is the Respondent in this case, any responsibility for
the policies or actions the Dutch Reformed Church?
Nr. GERICKE M:r. President, no responsibility for the action of the
Dutch Reformed Church, direct or indirect, but many of the adherents
-members of the Dutch Reformed Church-are supporters of theGov-
ernment, naturally.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAURIC SOE:hat, hlr. Gericke, when the Dutch
Reformed Church, for instance, decides to setiipseparate or daughter
churches, or perhaps separate Communion tables, that isentirely its own
act and not, as it were, inspired byny suggestions or instruction from
higher quarters?
Mr. GERICKEM : r.President, we had this pattern of church life Iong
before there was any Government policy on this point. The first Inan
who spoke in favour of this policy was General Smuts in 1917-thatwas WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
63
the first ti~ne the word "apartheid"was used: but long before that we
had this pattern of church life.
Judge SirGerald FITZMAURIC Ehank you.
The PRESIDENT J:dge Jesçup.
Judge JESSUP: Mr. Gericke, there are just one or two questions about
your testimony yesterday, and 1put my question solely forthe clarifica-
tion of the record before us and, of course, without any intimation of the
importance or relevance which might ultimately be attached tothe points
at issue.
On page 4, supra, of the trançcript of yesterday's testimony you
testified that you are a member of the Federa.1 Council of the Dutch
Reformed Churches of South Africa. You agreed with hlr. Rabie's state-
ment that this FederaI Council is a body composed of representatives of
the European Coloured and Bantu Reformed Churches inSouth Africa.
Mr. GERICKE : That is correct.
Judge JESSUP: And at page 8, supra, in referring to the role of the
Federal Council you used the expression "At this top level, the Federal
Council provides the opportunity for discussion of matters of poli..."
-is the Federal Council in the hierarchical organization of the Dutch
Reformed Church the highest body in South Africa?
Mr. GERKCKE : O, Mr. President, in Our Church organization-as a
matter of fact, in a11the Reforrned Church organisations also in this
country-the highest body is the synod. Now, the procedure is the
following when there is any resolutioby this Federal Council, it must be
referred to the General Synod of the Dutch Reformed Church.
Judge JB:SSUP: That is, there is a general synod for the Church of
South Africa as a whole, ~vhichhas the highest authority over alof the
Dutch Reformed Churches, whether White, Bantu or Coloured?
Mr. GERICKE N O, Mr. President,I am sorry, itis my mistake if there
iça misunderçtanding. There are different synods. There is the synod of
the Coloured church; there isthe synod of the Bantu church in South
Africa and .thesynod of the White church. Now, the synod is the highest
authority. The resolutions of this Federal Council must be referred to al1
these synods for action.
Judge JESSUP: SOthere is no body other thiin the Federal Council
which has superior jurisdiction over the synods of al1 of the separate
churches ?
Mr. GERICKE :O,Mr. President.
Judge JESSUP: Does the Federal Council have any power of decision,
or rnerely of discixssion and recornrnendation?
Mr. GERICKE : Merely of discussion and recomrnendation.
Judge JESSUP:And how many members of the CounciI are there?
Mr. GERICKE:About 34, Mr. President.
Mr. JEÇSIJP: And how rnany of these are White representatives or from
the White churches?
Mr. GERICKE: Iwould Say about fifty-fifty.
Judge JESSUP: Half White and half non-White? And of the non-
White, could you indicate to the Court how many are Bantu and how
many are Coloured, to use your terrninology?
Mr. GERICKE: I will have to make a guess, now, Mr. President, because
1 have not the list in front me.
The PRESIDËNT:If you are going to guess,make it an intelligent one.
Mr. GERICKE: A guess is never very intelligent, Mr. Preçident, buI64 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
willtry. IwouId Say about zo per cent. of the Coloured section, 30 per
cent. Bantu and 50 per cent. White.
Judge JESSUP: And do 1 understand, frorn what you have just said,
that there is one, what 1 may cal1 a "high synod" which has authority
over ail ofthe synods of the particular Bantu churches?
AIr. GERICKE:NO, hfr. President, the general synod of the \Vhite
church has no authority over any Uantu or Coloured synod.
Judge JESSUP: No, but my question is-1 take it that thereis aWhite
synod which has authority over al1 the \Vhite churches?
Mr. GERICKE:That is correct, Mr. President.
Judge JESSUP:1s there another high spnod which has authority over
al1the Bantu churches?
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is correct.
Judge JES~UP:And a third which has authority over al1the Coloured
churches?
hlr. GERICKE:That is correct.
Judge JESSUP: And there is no organ of CO-ordinationorofdomination
or supervision above these three synods?
Mr. GERICKE:NO, there is not.
Judge JESSUP: Thank you very much.
The PRESIDENT: Does any other Mernber of the Court desire to ask
any questions? Sir Louis.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO DO any ofthe synods depend on another
for financial support?
Mr. GERICKE:Yes, Mr. President, 1 think 1 have esplained it.At the
present moment the Coloured church and also the Bantu church need
the support of the White section, in the form of money and of personnel.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFOC : ould YOU give us some idea of the extent
of the financial help? Could you Say what the Bantu synod, for instance,
gets from the Whitc synod?
Mr. GERICKE:Mr. President, Icannot differentiate, but1 know that
the annual figure which reflects the support of the White church to the
non-White churches, that is including the Coloured church, iç at the
present moment 6 million Rand. The major part of this support goes to
the Bantu churches because the Coloured church is well on its way to
independence, also financial independence.
Judge A~BAXEFO Thank you.
The PRESTDENTT :here are just a few questions 1 would liketo ask
you, Mr. Gericke. In your answers to Judge jessup's questions you have
clarified the position considerably.The Federal Council operates as a
recomrnending body?
Mr. GERICKE : That is correct&Ir.President.
The PRESIDENT : ut each of the churches, that is the mother church
and the daughter churches, have their own independent synods? And
no one of them has any control over any other?
Mr. GERICKE:NOcontrol whatsoever, D3r.President.
The PRESIDENT: During the testimony you spoke about the advan-
tages of this church system:1 want to ask you whether there have been
revealed to you any disadvantages. For example, have you experienced
any sense of resentment or sense of infcriority ainongst the congregation
of the daughter churches, because their churches are separate from the
White church and that there is not any multi-racial church?
Mr. GERICKE :lr. President,1 get in contact with many Bantu and WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 65
Coloured cliurch leaders-it is rny responsibility in the Commission of
the Dutch Iceformed Church. 1 meet many of them in my home, 1 have
very frequent discussionswith both these groups.I frequently visit a11
Our mission fields. Mr. President,1 can testify that I have not corne
across a single Coloured man or Bantu inthe Dutch Reformed Church
~ho has resented this positionBy saying this,1xvant to be fair1donot
say that tht:re is nany resentrnent. But not that 1know of.
The PRESIDEST I:ell have you experiencerlany sense of resentment
or sense of inferiority on the part of any member of the Bantu people
mho are not: members ofthe various daughter churches?
Mr. GERICKE O n account of the division in the Chur&Ir .resident?
The PRESIDEN Though not members of tlic Church thcy must know
about it:have you experienced any resentment on the part of non-
members of the daughter churches who are of the Bantu people?
JZr. GERICKE:NO, hlr. President, 1 have riot.As n matter of fact,a
few weeks rigo1met two Hantu people in Cape Town who had to take me
to a distant place. Onewas the driverof a friend of mine in Cape Town.
As I sat with theninthc car,I asked them to which church they belonged
and they both told me that thejr belonged tothe Dutch Reformed Church.
In replyto the question: since when? They both told me that they joined
the Dutch Reformecl Church in the course of this year. M'hen 1 asked
them for sri expIanatioil they replied tliat they liked the system which
gave them their oivn church.
The PRESIDENT: The answer to my question is that you have not
experienced any expression of resentment, on the church formation which
exists, on thepart of non-members of the daughter churches.
blr. GERICKE: 1have not experiencecl any resentment.
The PRESIDEK :HTave you been in a position to ascertain whetherit
exists or not, or have you been so removed from al1except members of
your Church that you would not know one way or the other?
Mr. GEIIICKE Rlr. President1 corne in contact with the members of
the Dutch Reformed Church but not very frequently with the rnembers
outside the Dutch Reformed Church.
The PRESIDEN T :e only other question 1 wanted to ask you relates
to the difference in the doctrine and practice in yoifr Church compared
with what 1 might cal1the muIti-racial churches, wtiere the church is in
effect one foundation:yours restson a number of foundations, 1gather.
That is correct,is it? ïouhave got the mother church and the daughter
churches.
RIT.GERICKE That is correctMr. President.
The PRESIDENT A:nd they provide a chiirch for different peoples. In
the case of the multi-racial churches-1 do not want to mention any
specificone-you did indicate that in some ofthem, ~vhilst the Uantu
people and the White people, and Coloured people, are al1 members of
the one chiirch, nonetheless different serviciilthe same church are
provided for them. 1101 understand the pictureis that there is the one
church, firstly in a spiritual sense, the one churone foundation, and
then in another sense there is the pkysical edificwhich isthe church
which they attend?
Mr.GERICKE:Yes.
The PRESIDENT 1: it comrnorl that whenaservice is being held in the
churches you have been speaking about, for example, where attended by
Whites, that any member of the Bantu orColoured people would attend?66 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. GERICKE:Are you speaking of the English churches now?
The PRESIDENT :1 am speaking of any.
Mr. GERICKE:NO, it is not a very common practice. It happens in
certain places1 know of two, CapeTown and Johannesburg, two cathe-
drals.
The PRESIDBNT :O what extent isthere a commingling on the part of
the congregation of different races in both those cathedrals?
Mr. GERICKE: Mr. President, I can only give an impression. First of
al11 think thatthe attendanceis very srnall on the part of the non-White
community. 1do not think there is very much social intercourse.
The PRESIDENTA : re you able tsaywhether, for example, Communion
is given at the same altar rail at the same time to the White people and
to the Coloured and Bantu people in any one of tiie multi-racial churches?
Mr. GERICKEI: am nof in a position to Say,ÏifrPresident.
The PRESIDENT Not one way or theother? That is al11wanted to ask.
Mr. Rabie.
hlr. RABIE:Mr. President, 1 wanted. to ask the witness one or two
questions simply to clear up some points. 1 will not be more than a
minute or two.
Mr. Gericke, my learned friend, quoted çome passages to you from a
report of what is called the CottesIoe Consultation. He read to you
certain resolutions,as he called them, being Nos. 13 and 15.I merely
wish to read to you one or two passages from the very same document to
explain, as1see it, the real nature of what were described as resolutions.
Mr. President, this is really leading the witness but 1 donot think my
learned friend will object Isam reading from the same document which
he read to the Court. The first point is this, that my learned friend
called resolutions were really certain agreements to which the members
at this consultation came, and these agreements were to be submitted to
the synods of the different churches.
hlr.GERICKE:That is correct, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE:If 1may read the passage to you, it says at page 73of the
document :
"In the nature of the case the agreements here recorded do not
-and we do not pretend that they dwrepresent in full the con-
victions of the member churches."
In the next paragraph we find it stated that there was acall upon members
to ask their churches to consider the various points mentioned. 1s that
correct7
Mr. GERICKE T:hat is correct, yes.
Mr. RABIE:One further question, and that is the last one. In connec-
tion with the question which was put to you by one of the honourable
Members of the Court with regard to the relationship between your
Church and the Government, and decisions taken by either the one.body
or the other, can you state whether, to your knowledge, al1the members
of the Cabinet of the South African Government at the present time
belong to one church or to different churches?
Mr. GERICKE: NO, Mr. President, they do not belong to one church.
There are members from different churches, two English churches and
two different Afrikaans churches.
Mr. RABIE:Yes. Do members of the Cabinet belong to, shall weSay,
English-speaking churches? WITKESSES .4NDEXPERTS 67
Mr. GERICKE:Yes, and at least two to another Afrikaans-speaking
church, not to the Dutch Reformed Churcli.
Mr. RABIE: Not the Dutch Reformed Church: thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Mr. Gross, wiliyou need the attendance of hfr.
Gericke any further?
Mr. GROSS : O,MI. President.
The PREÇIDENT:The hearing is resumed. Mr. iMuller,will you present
your next witness?
Mr. RABIE: Mr. President, honourable Members, the next witness for
the Respondent will be Professor Krogh. Before he is called, may 1
indicate to the Court that Professor Groenewald, whose name appears on
the Respondent's present list of witnesses, wiIl not be called. Mr. Presi-
dent, on 30 July the Respondent notified the Deputy-Registrar that
Professor Groenewald would testify on certain points which were exactly
the same as those indicated in the case of the ReverendMr. Gericke. It
was subsequently decided to let one witness cover the whole field, and
for that reason not to cal1Professor Groenewald.
My learned colleague Mr. Muller wili lead the next witness.
The PRESIDENT M:r. Muller?
Mr. MULLER:Mr. President, Professor Krogli's evidence will relate
to the issues raised under the Applicants' Subrnissions Nos. 3 andWe.
have also intimated to the Registrar and tothe A~iplicants that the points
to which hlsevidence will be directed will be the following, anI will
just read it from the letter addressed to the Apl~licants for the purpose
of the record:
"Circumstances and conditions in South West Africa which
materially influence and affectcoiiomic development of the terri-
tory.
The necessity ofapplying measures of differentiation between the
various population groups in South IVest Africa in the economic
- development of the Territory."
May 1 ask that Professor Krogh be introduced to the Court and make
both the declarations provided for in theles, that isas witnessand as
expert?
The PKESIDENTy : ou may make the declaratii~ns.
Mr. KROGH:In my capacity as a witness 1 solemnly declare upon my
honour and conscience that 1wiIZspeak the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth. In my capacity as an expert 1soleninIy declare
upon my honour and conscience that my statement will be in accordance
with my sincere belief.
Mr. MULLER P:rofessor Krogh, your full names are Desmond Charles
Krogh, isthat correct? r
Mr. KROGH:That is correct, Sir.
Mr. MULLER: YOUwere born in South West Africa, and lived there
until you had completed your schooling, isthat correct?
Mr. KROGH T:hat is also correct, Sir.
Rlr.MULLER :)idyou then proceed for furtherstudy touniversitiesin
South Africa and overseas?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir.68 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. MULI,.T.1EwR:lstate your academic qualifications, and ask you to
indicate whether the statement is correct. You hold the Bachelor of
Commerce Degree of theUniversity of Cape Town?
Mr. KROCK:That is so,Sir.
hlr. MULLER: Master of Arts of the University of Cape Town in
Economics ?
Mr.KROGH In economics. Yes,Sir.
Mr. RIULLER A: Doctoral in Economics of the University of Amster-
dam?
hlr.KROGH Y:es, Sir.
RIr.MULLER A:nd a Doctor of Philosophy, University of Pretoria?
Mr. KROGH T:hat iç correct, Sir.
Mr. MULLER H:ave you held any teaching positions in universitics in
South Africa?
hlr.KROGH l'es,Sir, 1haveheld teaching positions at the University
of the Oran~e Free State, the University of Pretoria and at the University
of South Africa.
Mr. MULLER W:hat is your present position?
Mr.KROGH1 :am at present Professoin Economics at tlie University
of South Africa andHead of the Department of Economics and Economic
History at the University of South Africa.
Bir.RIULLER W:erePOU at one time the Assistant Economic Adviser
to the Economic Advisory Couiicil of the Government ofSouth Africa?
Mr.KROGH T:hat is so, Sir.
&Ir. R~ULLER D:O you serve on various cornmittees concerned with
economic affairs?
Mr. KROCH :es, 1do, Sir.I serveat the moment on the cornmittee
concerned with the development ofBantu areas in South Africa; on an
advisory committee for economic planning in South Africa; on a com-
mittee for national oeconomic accounting, inSouth Africa; and 1also
serve on a advisorp committee for econornic research at the Africa
Institute in Pretoria.
Mr. MULLER A:re you attached to any econornic institutionsand
societies?
Mr.KROGH :es, Sir1 am a research assistant at tlie Keserve Bank
of South Africa; 1 am a member of the Interiiational Association for
Research in Income and IfTealth1 am also, of course, a member of the
Economic Society of South Africa, and 1have been the Secretarp of this
Society until very recently.
Rlr.&IULLER W:hat is your special field of study, Professor Krogh?
Mr.KROGHh :Zy speciai field of study, and the one that interests me
most at thmoment, concerns the use of cconomic accounting in develop-
ment planning with particular reference to Africa.
hIr~~ULLER Have you done research work in various countries?
hlr.KROGH: l'es, Sir; apart from extensive economic research in
South IVest Africa and ofcourseSouth Africa,1 have visited Ethiopia
and Kenya in this connection, and have also paidavery brief v~it to
Mozambique, or Portuguese East Africa.1 might add-1 wa~ thinking
interms of Africa-that I have also had the opportunity of studying
national accounting and economic development research at institutions
in America.
~!~..~IuLLER:Are you the author of several publications on economic
affairs? CVITNESSES AND EXPERT5 69
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir, 1 am the author oThe National I.laconaFrame-
work O# South West Africa from 1920-1956 Then 1 am the author of
Eco~zomic Aspectsof theKarakul IncEustryin South West AJrica.I am aIso
the author of the first Inter-Industry Analysis of theSoAfricanEcono-
my, apart from various articles on economic matters.
Mr. MUI-LER A:m 1 correct in stating that you have an extensive
knowledge of economic conditions in South West Africa itself?
IllrKKOGH: yes, 1think 1 have.
hlr.MULLER :efore 1ask you specific questioiis relative to economic
conditions in South West Africa, will you give the Court a very brief
outline of economic conditions in the Territory before 1920 when the
Mandate was assumed?
hIr.KROGH : Weil, Sir, in order to be very brief on this but nevertheless
coniprehensive, allow me to divide this period into two-namely the
period before the German Occupatio~i,which lasted for 30 years until the
outbreak of World War 1, and the period preceding this. 1 can be
very bnef about the first and the second period. As far as the first period
is concerned-this is before 1884-for centuries Portuguese, Dutch,
British and even the Cape Government showed interest in the Territory
of South West Africa. In fact, they sent expeditions to the Territory to
ascertain its economic possibilities and prospet:ts, an1 have studied
some of these reports in the course of my research. They were al1 very
discouraging from the viewpoint of the economic possibilities in the
Territory. The reasons given, without exception, were that the cost and
difficulties of administratiowould far outweigh any known economic
possibilities that theTerritory might offer. Arid subsequently, as you
probably al1 know, this led only to the annexation of the l~arbour of
Walvis Bay, which forms legally part of the Cape Province otheRepub-
licof South Africa.
As far as the internal position of South West Africa is concerned, it
was very rnuch like the rest of Africa before the turn of this century.
There was no peace and security for man or property in the Temtory.
It was populated by a large number of different groups, livinin virtual
economic isolation from each other, and of course from the rest of the
world. Subsistence activity was their u7ay of earning a living from the
soil, which was very precarious under South West African conditions.
Furtherrnore, their techniques of production were not only primitive
compared to modern standards of agricu1tur;il development and of
eârning a living, but they were also static-thereare no signs that they
were improved even in terms of generations. The position in the south
\vas tliat, this area being much less fertile and Nature being very much
less kind, the population density was much lower. There were more
population groups, many of which had either been pushed out from areas
adjoining South West Africa or had come there from fear, orat least for
protection, knowinp that they would not be pushed out ofthis area by
groups that might think this area favourable to any other area. 1 am
thinking particularly of the Bushmen or Damara-in a historical sense of
course. There is aIso evidence that private traders and hunters frequented
the internal part of the area, obviously for economic gain. They traded
largely with liquor and fire-ams, which were in great demand, and
further, of course, did not help in any way to esiablish peace or keep the
peace in the Territory.As a matter of fact the sale of fire-arms and of
Iiquor to Natives in the Territory was specifically prohibited in the7O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mandate, if 1recollect correctly. They practised what we would call a
type of Razrbweiirtscha fthich means that they were not concerned about
the conservation of the few trading products that Nature infact produced
in the Tenitory-this largely took the form of ivoryand ostrich feathers.
It did not take long before the Territory was nearly completely depleted
of these articles of exchange.
Mr. HULLER W:ill you deal next with the second period before 1920,
that is, the period under the German regime-very briefly, please?
Mr. KROGH Y:es. It always seems strange for an economist,who studies
the economic history of these territories, to find the reasons why a
particular modern metropolitan country should show an interest in a
particular African territory, and we have seen and I have pointed out,
that not only the Portuguese, the Dutch and the British, and even the
Cape Govemment, had shown interest, in the Territory, but they did not
regard it as in their interests to assume responsibility foitsadministra-
tion and development. It is very difficult to establish exactly whatthe
motive was for doing this, but 1 can assure you that it was not economic.
As a matter of fact, the Germans, as we al1know, were late-corners to the
colonial scene and, to put it very popularly, "they went in where angels
fear to tread". Their period of 30 years of administration proved that
they had to learn the problems of administration and economic develop-
ment in South West Africa the hard way. Tliey were inexperienced with
these probIems and, in fact, the first15 years of German administration
were, for aU practical purposes, ineffective from the viewpoint of estab-
lishing control, or introducing law and order or security in the territory.
There were no economic developments in the Territory during the first
15 years worth mentioning, not only because of the lack of economic
possibilities in the Territory, but also becauof the lack of means, in the
case of Germany, to develop territories. She was not, at that stage, a
capital exporting country, as Britain and France and the other metro-
politan countries were. Nevertheless, this aii culminated a few years Iater
in the well-known German Native wars in the territory (internal wars),
which disrupted the little security there was and led to a great Ioss of
lives and livestock and, of course,involved considerablefinancialcosts to
the German Imperia1 Government. In fact, during the first 22 years of
German administration-which brings us to 1907-German public
money to the extent of A21 million had been spent on the Territory,
three-quarters of which was for military purposes, not for any construc-
tive, economic development purposes.
It was only during the last eight years-that is,the remaining eight
years before World War 1-that law and order liad been established in
part of the Territory, in the so-called "Police Zone". This, by theway, is
a concept that isderived from the German period of administration,
indicating the extent of their administrative penetration into the
Territory. It has been retained to the present for administrative pur-
poses.
As far as economic development is concerned, part of what we call
the infra-structure, this means of communication and transportation,
had been established. Furthermore, mining (in the meanwhile diarnonds
had been discovered, and copper,too) was in the process of being devel-
oped as an export industry. This only happened after the German
Native Wars, during the last few years before World War 1.
There was also the beginnings of the development of a modern live- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 7=
stock industry in the Territory, but there were no exports of such pro-
ducts. The industry was still in a pioneering stage, although important
improvements had already been made in this respect and tliese had been
effected by way ofencouraging the settlement of Germans in theTerritory
to develop a modern lix-estock industry. It isimportant to remember
that these economic innovations did not extend over the whole Police
Zone. This economic penetration had only been cstabhshed in the central
part of the Police Zone, but it proved to very promising indeed. It was
al1suddenly arrested, of course,with the autbreak of World War 1, and
the subsequent short period of military administration.
1think I can conclude by looking at the periorl as a whole, that during
the period of German administration it was largely experimental in
nature. The Germans first tried to develop and administer the Territory
by way of a commercial Company (the Deutches Kolonialgesellschaft
für S.W.A.); followed by a period of military administration; and then,
shortlp before World War 1, there was a form of local government
coupled with M'hite settlement. The latter had been encouraged to
develop the modern livestock industry in part of the Police Zone.
Econornic develapment was slow and, in fact, limited.
BIr. MULLER: Would you describe the position, also briefly, in South
West Africa after World War 1-that is, when the Mandate was assumed
inI~SO?
Mr. KROGHW : ell, 1shall try to be very brief, Sir. 1think the best way
to do this is to divide theTemitory largely into a northern part where
more than half the population of the Territory lived, and the southern
part. I do this for the simple reason that administratively and economi-
calIy speaking, the quarrels whichled to an interrial war and the economic
developments in the south (the establishment of a modern economic
sector),had, in fact, not affected the greater part of the population at
all-that iç the area which is generally known as the northern part of the
l'erritory, or the area outside the Police Zone.The land was more fertile
here, but it was economically less accessible. Itwas relatively peaceful
compared to the south, where there were more different groups with
greater social differences between them and nature waç Iess kind in the
south than in the north. The economiclandscape in the north was rather
even and static. There were no considerable signs of economic un-
evenness or imbalance, but very important, toti, it was virtually static
for a11practical purposes-there were no dynamic elernents of economic
improvement from within the greater part of the population.
leççfertile, but economically more accessible. The areawaswinhabited by
more groups, but because it was a larger, being less fertile, area the
population density was very Iow.These groups iived in mutual suspicion
of each other, not trusting each other, and, of course, most of the inter-
tribal wars, and even the German-Native Wars, took place in the
southern part of the Territory. hleanwhile, howcver, itiçalso important
to rernember that the economic landscape (1 am refemng now to 1920)
was very uneven compared to that in the northcrn part of the territory.
This was so for the simple reason that there were important regional
differences in the canying capacity or economic possibilities of the south
than there were inthe riorth. And more important still, is the fact that
there were quite different groupç occupying this area-different that is
from the viewpoint of their economic viability or their capacity to72 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
establish and develop modern economic activities. There factors account-
ed for the great economic unevenness, but most important 1 think, from
the viewpoint of economic development, is that there was an important
dynamic element of development in the southern sector as I have
sketched very briefly as regards the German period. There was already
established modern mining activity and there were the beginnings of a
modern livestock industry.
Finaily,I think, it is also important to mention that, at thisstage, the
Territory could not pay its own way. By this 1simply mean that it could
not, in fact, finance (as it proved very clearly in the German period) its
own development efforts to extend its productive capacity, nor, in fact,
was it able always to rely on its revenue largely derived from mining
activity to finance its ordinary administrativeexpenditure, let alone the
financing of capital investments, because of the instability of this source
of revenue. This was clearly shown later in the 15)30S,for example, when
it could not even pay its ordinary administrative staff, letalone finance
any capital developments, as a result of drought andthe Great Economic
Depression. But this is going beyond 1920.
hfr. MULLER:Now will you tell the Court whether, in your opinion,
there are any basic problems with regard to the economic development of
South West Africa?
Mr. KROGH: Well, Sir, verybriefly,and 1think most economists would
âgree, there are at leastfive outstanding, I should Say, structural prob-
lems of economic development in SouthWest Africa that any administra-
tion, or anybody who assumes responsibility for the development of the
Territory, would have to face.1 stress the word "structural",Sir, because
these problems cannot be solved in any short period of time. They are
structural in thesense that with even the best will and the most generous
purse, it would take generations to change these structural characteristics
of the Territory.The five 1want to mention relate very briefly to, first
of all, the size or vastness of the territothe second to the nature of its
natural resources; the third refers to the size of the population; the fourth
to the nature of the population and then, finally, but by no means the
least important, Sir, is the social environment in which economic develop-
ment policies have to be pursued.
Ifit suits you,1 will deal very briefly . . .
Mr. MULLERY : eswill you deal with the five problems inthe çequence
in which you have mentioned them, starting first with the size of the
territory and its implication for economic development?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir. As far as the size of the Territoryisconcerned,
1 need not be very long. 1 takeit that you are acquainted with the fact
that South West Africa covers a very vast area-in fact, tu give you a
sense of proportion, 1 think one could draw a cornparison and say it
covers an area seven-and-a-half times, for example, of that of Liberia, or
zo times that of the Netherlands. Now, the implications for economic
development are rather self-evident-to establish in any short period of
time effective administrative control, means of communication, trans-
portation and so forth over an area 20 times tha.tof the Netherlandç, is
technically and financially simply an impossible task. Tt would take a
very long time to extend the necessary public utility services for the
encouragement of economic development over so vast a territory.
Mr. MULLER :he second point mentioned by you was that there were
no natural resources-would you deal with that? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
73
Mr. KROGH : es. Very briefly and speaking generally, 1 think South
West Africa can be described, from the viewpoint of economic develop-
ment and looking at its natural reçources-as apoor terntory. It is not
only poor, but also displays great variety or differences in the location or
quality of its resources. To begin with,1 think 1 can mention that there
are, to this date, no known mineral fuels in the Territory, and one of its
scarcest factors, but most important from the viewpoint of economic
development (especially agriculture and aIso iiidustry), is the lack and
difficultyof water in the Territory. As a matter of factby far the greater
part of South West Africa can be described asan arid or semi-arid region.
Now the lack of any minera1 fuels means thxt al1 forms of power for
agricultural or industrial modern development on any substantial scale
tvill have to be imported from outside. This makes cost of production
considerably high, of course, and in most instances rather prohibitive.
Furthermore, in order to obtain water very capital intensive operations
are necessary, pushing up costs further and requiring technical know-
ledge and ingenuity that isnot generally availablc in other parts of the
world. They have special problems in this connectioil.
Looking, very briefly, at the livestock carrying capacity of the Ter-
ritory, it is found not only to be poor, generally speaking, but it also
varies considerably, as 1have tned to point out earlier on. You find,for
instance, moving from the south-west of the Territory right across to the
north-east that the carrying capacity varies from 45 hectare per large
stock unit to 6hectareper large stock unit. This means that in the south-
western parts of the Territory the Iivestock carrying capacity is very
rnuch poorer, in fact seven times poorer, than that in the north-east of
the Territory.
To indicate the general poornesç of this carrying capacity, it is probably
instructive to reme~nber that the carrying capacity in England, France
and the Netherlands, for instance, is less than one hectare per large stock
unit.
As far as the cropping potential of the Territory is concerned, more
than half of it is nil-thereare no possibilities of raising crops-whereas
as you move towards the north-east of the Territory you in fact find that
the cropping potential of the Territory becomes normal.
Next there are the mineral resources of the Territory. There are two
known mineral sources worth mentioning and developing on any con-
siderable scale and they are, as you know, diamonds in the extreme south
and coppei-in the north. 1should imagine thatthe distance between them
should he in the vicinity of, Say, six to seven hundred miles.
Finally, there are the fishing resources. The sea fishing resources of the
Territory were not in fact known until quite rece~ltly. It was only dis-
covered and became properly assessed after World War II. It only
became developed since the early Igjos.
That briefly, Sir,1 think indicates the scope and nature ofthe known
natural resources of the Territory, showing great diversity and variety
over so vast an area as 1 have sketched.
Mr. MULLER: YOUmentioned as the third problem the human re-
sources. Could you deal with that?
blr. KROGH: Yes. First of all, very briefly, there is thesize of the
population. In 1920, asyou know, the sjze of the population was a quarter
of a million: today it counts half a million. It has more or less doubled
itseIf in40 years. The importance of the size of the population is that74 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
such a small population scattered over so wide anarea obviously does not
offer any conçiderable internal market, either for industrialization or for
encouraging modern economic activity. Surplus products cannot be
disposed of in so small a market. In other words, al1 modern forms of
econornic activity, virtuallywithout exception, will have to be directed
towards foreign markets, rather sophisticated export markets.
But this is not the only important implication deriving from the size
of the population from the viewpoint of economic development. If we
bring the size of the population in relation to the vastness of the area,
and remember that the population is not concentrated at one point but
spread over the larger part of the area, then we find that South West
Africa has, in fact, the second lowest population density in the whole of
Africa-its neighbour Bechuanaland having the lowest. And, also to be
remembered here is the factthat Africa as a whole has the lowest popu-
lation density of all continents in the world. So South West Africa is in
fact an exception in Africa, which again is an exception in the world.
Low population densities, apart from indicating the necessity for
exporting because of a limited local market, also add weight to the
diffrculties already mentioned with regard tothe vastness of the Territory
in supplyingmodern means of communication and administration. They
increase the cost thereof, often making it quite prohibitive with regard
to the output or the revenue to be obtained from undertaking any
economic activities on a purely economic basis.
An important last point rernains with regard tothe population density.
It also means, of course, that the land labour ratio is very favourable in
the case of South West Africa. There is probably much more land per
head of the population than in most other African territories or in most
other parts of the world. This indicates, from an economic vieïvpoint,
that agriculture, rather than industry, enjoys a comparative advantage
in the case of South West Africa. Its economic future lies, 1 think, more
in its agricultural development than in its industrial development.
Mr. MULLER: WiII you next deal with the nature of the population,
which was the fourth problem which you mentioned.
Mr. KROGH Y:es. I shall try to be brief about this. The most distin-
guishing feature from the viewpoint of the nature of the population,
irrespective of its size,isthe dearth or the lack of entrepreneurial or
enterprising elements inthe Territory.Now this is not unusual. You find
this to be characteristic of most types of societies that we and the
sociologists have lately corne to refer to as "tradition-bound" societies.
They do not display internal enterprising elements that strike out and
supply the necessary dynamic momentum, from the economic viewpoint,
to the society as a whole. They cannot overcome these major economic
problems that I have mentioned. They cannot establish and create
modern economic opportunities and activities. This is the one character-
istic.
The second characteristic of the population is,of course, that you had
in South West Africa this White section of the community that did not
belong to thjs type of society.You need not research toestablish this-it
is quite obvious that they belong to a quite different type of soclety,
from the economic development viewpoint. They are members of what
we would cal1 a modern, economic dynamic society. They are persons
who spontaneously or automatically discover, undertake, and organize
modern economic activity in those parts of the Territory which they WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 75
inhabit. Thus, there is not only a general lack of enterprising quaIities in
the Territory, to undertake rnodern economic activity, to establish it,to
maintain it, to organize it, to expand it, but there is alço this great
difference in the economic qualities, the economic performance, the
economic aptitudesand attitudes ofthese two sections of the community.
JIr. MULLER: YOUmention social cnvironrnent as being the fifth
problem in the Listof five that you indicated to the Court.
Mr. KROGHY : es. As if South West Africa docs not suffer from enough
economic problems of development, it moreover does not share an eco-
nomic advantage often enjoyed by small populations in other parts of
the worId, aameiy the presence of a homogeiieous social environment.
The latter iç characteristic usually of smaU populations, and in this
respect they usuaUy enjoy an economic advantage over large populations
that, generally speaking, are inclined to be more heterogeneous. Social
mobility, or the social environment, is an important aspect of economic
development. This is increasingly beîng discovered and isincreasingly
being studied and stressed. It is a great mistake, and quite misleading,
and, I think, can be disastrous, to equate the social atmosphere or
environment of a relatively homogeneous European or other country's
population with that found in aterritory such as South West Africa. It is
important becauçe social mobility pennits andallows certain members
of the community to make sacrifices for the benefit of the rest and the
whole community. On the other hand where you have a plural type of
population, this sacrifice in having to adapt jrourself, or in having to
move froni one place to another because of economic considerations, is
not seen to be in the inte~ests of the community, but of a homogeneous
community as a whole as part of the family, in fact as a sacrifice of one
group to the advantage of another group.
This advantage and disadvantage approach does not really occur or it
is not viewed that way; it is in fact tolerated anrelatively hornogeneous
society, biitthis unfortunately is not the case in a plural population.
Here their loyalty is first and foremost toand their interests are seen to
considered as a whole. 1make this point, Sir, bccauseit is veryopdifficult,
under sucti a set of circumstances, to devise a policy of administration
and developmcnt that could in fact satisfyevery group, and every mem-
ber of every group, al1 the time everywhere in the Territory. To deny
that this exists is, uithout doubt, invitirig disaster and strife inthe
Lem-tory.
Mr. MUI.LERM : r. Krogh, howwould you describe the type of economy
which has such large regional as well as population difierences as you
have indicated to the Court?
Rlr.I~ROGH ?:Veil,Sir, these \vide regional and group diffexences£rom
the viewpoint of economic performance, and from the viewpoint of
economic absorptive capacity, are not peculiar to South West Africa.
It is receiving more and more attention in the literature on the
siibject of the economic development of underdeveloped countnes. AS a
matter of fact some very eminent economists rt:cognize this as a special
feature of underdeveloped countries.
1do not want to linger on this point.Ijust want to mention that these
diversities Vary of courseinintensity. In any case it leads to thefact ypu
do not have a single economy, but special problems affect~ng special
areas or grorips in a territory. ThisIeads to a division of the economy76 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
into,not difierent compartments, but in fact, different economies. Hence,
the concept of economic dualism that has corne to receive general
recognition in the literature on thiparticular field.
With the permission of the Court, Sir, 1 would very briefly like to
quote a passage from an eminent economist, Professor Albert Hirschman,
who ivas nntil recently Professor in InternationalEconomic Relations at
Colombia University and, 1 believe, at present, Professor in Economics
at Harvard University. 1 will be quoting from his very well-known book
The Strategy of Economic Development.1 believe that this dualistic ap-
proach with regard to underdeveloped countries was inspired by French
literature on the subject.I quote from page 184 to illustrate the point
that economic dualism is quite often found to bc the case in the under-
developed world and, that these diversities vas in intensity and hence
also the type of development problem and the extent to which this has
to be specialiy recognized and respected, with regard to economic devel-
opment policy :
"The ability and tendency of growth [this is economic growth]
to round itself out for a long time within some sub-group [and sub-
group refers here to hurnan group], region or country while back-
wardness retains its hold elsewhere has often been noted. If the
tendency manifests itself along clearly marked geographic lines, the
result is the division of the world into developed and underdeveloped
countries and the split of a country into progressive and backward
regions. On the other hand, progress and tradition may dwell in
close spatial proximity by simply fastening on different human
groups and economic activities that exist side by side. This state of
affairs, often encountered in deveioping countries, has been aptlp
termed 'dualism' . .."
1 want to mention in this regard that, you find, of course, different
types of dualism. Itis most striking in the case of South FVest Africa,
both with respect to regional differences-the variety and diversity in
the economic capacity of the Territory-and also with regard to the
different population groups in the Territory. Because the latter is, in
fact, so striking from the viewpoint of econoniic development in the
Territory, 1should think it would be a better description to refer to the
economy of South West Africa as a type of socio-economic dualism,
stressing not only that this dualism exists as a result of purely technical
and economic reasons, but also because of major differences in the social
structure and atmosphere in the whole Territory. 1 rnight just mention
for the sake ofinterest that "socio-economic dualism" is a concept that
was first coined by Professer Rocke from the Netherlands. It is only
during the last five to seven years that this subject, afterhaving been
neglected, is again receiving special attention.
Mr. MULLER: Professor Krogh, before we proceed, do you know
whether the publication to which you have just referred is in the
library of the Court?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, 1 have established that this is available, not in the
library of the Court, but 1have been assured that it has been quoted in
the documents that have been submitted to this Court.
Mr. MULLER n the written pleadings?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir. 1have been assured of that.
Mr. MULLER :OW,to proceed. What contribution could and did the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 77
Europeaii population group in South West Africa make in economic
development of tlie Territory?
Rlr.KRCIGI I:rell,Sir, without repeating myçelf,1think it coiild be
said that there was no population group in the 'Territory other than the
Whitc group that could be expected to discover the possibilitics to
introduce or undertake modern economic development in the Territory.
There wert: no slgns of this. In fact, there were more warring groups, the
one taking aivay openly by way of warfare from the other wheneïyerthere
was drouglit and they had to live or die; that was the only choice open to
thern, and 1personally think this was the main reason for these very
many inter-tribal warfares. It is simply that very often in this particular
territory theyhad no choice-they had either to take from the other one
or die through lack of the basic means of subsiïtence during periods of
prolonged drought which we aiiknow were sreryfrequent in the Territory.
Rut this is froin the viewpoint of an economist. There might be other
rcasons for this, too.
The point is that the IVhite population group and its indiviclual
rnernbers sought out-they automatically do so, it is inherent and this is
characteristic of them from an economic developrnent viewpoint-the
modern economic possibilities, the investment of funds, the espcrimen-
tation witii different techniques that are most appropriate or suitable to
the particular area which they develop and, in fact, by doing this. tliey
not only demonstrate, they also develop and organize moderii economic
development in the Territory, thereby creating the necessary knowledge
for the dc~~elopn~enotf the other partsof the Territory which are tradi-
tionally and othcrwise occupied hy other sections of tlie comrnunity. It is
impossible to think that this could simply be imported from outside
because the development problems of most countries canriot just sirnply
take over the techniques of production developed in other socicties. A
particular regional, marketing and natural resource base requiresdifferent
application so that this necessitates the adaptation of tecliriiqucs of
production that already exist to the particular economic possibilitics of
the ares. 13utthis is not the only factor. The poiiit is also thatmost
importa~it I think-undertaking this, establishing these modern eco-
noinic developments in the Territory, in fact crcates economic oypor-
tunities that allow and, in fact, are taken up by the mernbers of other
sections of the population in the form of labourernployment. This is the
only by-the-way product that tliey could contritiute at this stage of tlieir
economic development to tlie development of thc Territory-this is their,
in fnct, comparative advantage (these other sections of the community)
ivliereas tlie White sector, or the imite comrnunities, in fact, invest
capital, inrroduce modern techniques of production, modern mcthods of
farming and Iead to initiation, establishment and extension for espansion
of modern cconomic activity.
IIr. A~UI.LER O n the other hand. again, just to complete the picture,
tvere the Native groups on the ~vholeable to rnake any contribution to
the modern economy of the Territory? You have mentioned that they
could providc labour. In addition to that, do you think that they could
have been entrepreneurs or in any other way ztssisted in the economic
development of tlie Territory?
hlr. KROCH : ell, generally speaking,1 tliiiik not. They could not,
in fact, contribute toany important or considerable estent to the intro-
duction, organization, maintenance and development of modern econornlc7s SOUTH WEST AFRICA
activity until quite recently. You now find cIear signs that these people,
in areas çpecially set aside for then1 and protected from cornpetition,
can, in fact, make this contributionbut this, as it were, in economically
protected areas and avenues for them. For the rest, and seen from their
viewpoint, they are, in fact, linked up with and related to the modern
economic sector, and in this sense conttibute to the modern economic
activity inthe Tcrritory, largelyas unskilled and also to a considerable
extent as migrant workers. This is of course not peculiar to SouthWest
Africa. It is a quitc common phenornenon in the rcst of Africa, especiaily
in Southern Africa, where the m0der.n sector of the economy is farmore
advanced than in other African territories. Jt is true that traditional
subsistence activities have bcen commercialized in other territories but
this is just one little step further thestage of economic development
from the traditional which uses primitive means ofproduction and non-
capital intensive production methods. Commercialization is a transitional
stage from a traditional subsistence to a modern type of economy that
uses highly scientific means of production, capital intensive forms of
production requiring highly skilled labour.
Therefore, when 1 speak about the modern economy 1do not mean to
refer to a stage irnmediately foUowingthe traditional subsistence type of
economy. There is a transitional stage of commercializing traditional
econornic activity and this is stilavery far way off from undertaking,
managing, organizing and financing modern economic activity as we
know it, for instance, in the Netherlands, or in the most highlydeveloped
countries of the world. This is also increasingly being recognizeand, in
fact, made explicit in studies on the economic development of under-
developed countries.
)Ir.MULLER: In regard to the conditions described by you in South
West Africa, would it have been advisable to have introduced an inte-
grated economic policy-a policy of economic integration in the Terri-
tory?
Mr. KROCH :O,Sir, and I feeland think thisis quite obvious to an
economist. By integrated-different social sciences mean different things
by the word "integratedW-the economist would understand, if I under-
stand your question, free cornpetition-by that 1 rnean "the best man
wins". Then, 1 wouId say "no" under the circurnstances in South West
Africa because 1 think it would be grossly unfair to the economically
weaker groups to compete on a free basis with the traditionally stronger
economic groups. I think this would be unfair to the economically
weaker population groups, and I am now referririg to the private sector.
Turning to the public sectorI would Say that in the interest of economic
development there is no doubt that it would be wasteful to extend
uniform standards of public administration and services, such as trans-
portation, communication, telephone services, forms of law and order
and other public facilities that modd normally be taken to facilitate
private economic activity to every part of the Territory, or to every
group irrespective of its economic absorptive capacity. Now by this
concept I simply rnean irrespective of the extent to which they couldin
fact make productive use of these resources.
hlr.MULLER: MThatin your opinion would be a more advisable ap-
proach?
Mr. KROGH Sir, 1 think you must bear in mind your ultimate aim.
Your ultimateaim, 1think, from the viewpoint of economic development WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 79
is to obtain a more productive use of avilable resources. In the case of
'South West Africa this to me, and 1 think to any other economist, would
be to intiioduce and develop-modern economic activity-to bring
modern techniques of production and outside capital to bear on the
economic ~~roblemsof development in the territory-its natural sources
and its pcipulation. Next, to develop this modern sector of economic
activity arid to use the revenue and the surplus value (iI may use that
concept in the economic development sense and not in the sense of some
other economic ideology), to develop the other areas and economically
less developed population groups-to extend as it were the modern
sector of economic development once it has been introduced, firmly
establishecl and consoiidated, to other parts of the Territory that had
previously been economically less accessible either because of the distance
factor or because of the poor economic viabilitÿ of the people who
occupied these areas. Meanwhile, of course, they would not in any way
be excluded, but in fact share in the advantages of the development of
this modern sector or modern economy. They would enjoy the advantages
and have the benefit of livingat higher standards of living by virtue of
being employed inthe modern sector aswage earners, and furthermore to
acquire ex,prience and skills, thereby making them economicaliy viable.
It is clear to me that in the case of South West Africa, the problem of
establishing and developing a modern econorngTis largely an economic
and technical problem, whereas the expansion and extension of modern
economic :~ctivities to those underdeveloped artlas of the Territory that
are inhabited bp what we technically cal1 economicaliy static and
tradition-bound societies would necessarily be quite a different problem.
It would be a problem of human developmerit rather than a purely
technical ~:conomicdevelopment problem.
1would also like to say, with particular reference to South WesMrica,
that it is:dlgood and well to Say that you haxpegot to niake the most
productive use of available resources, but it is not to be forgotten that
you have to achieve this in a social atrnosphere that is distiiictly different
from that which is normally encountered and experienced in relatively
highly developed industriai societies in Europe, for instance, or in
America for that matter. You will have to recognize the diverse and
heterogeneous nature of the population that is organized in different
groups, prirnarily seeing their economic interests from the group ra!her
than the national viewpoint. will have to remember this al1the time
in order to ensure social peace and their CO-operation-if you do not get
their CO-operationyou will not have modern eccinomicdevelopment and
if you do not have social peace you will not have modern economic
development or reform anyway. So, it is ali gond and well to state this
objective Ilut you must take into consideration the particular social and
regional problems in the Territory. You will have topursue a policy of
economic developrnent in a social and administrative framework that
would ensure social peace and the CO-operationof the differentgroups m
the difficult task of developrnent. 1 would Say this is a preiequisite for
modern econornic development in the particular circumstances as pre-
sented in South West Africa, Sir.
Mr. MULLER:Does the approach just descnbed by you implv differen-
tial treatmentas between the differentpopiilation groups in the Territory?
Mr. KROGH 1:am afraid, Sir, that 1might repeat myself but 1 shall be
very brief about this. In view first of al1of the fact that the problems of80 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
economic development in South IVest Africa are not the same every-
where in the region-there are geat regional diversities-hence, even if
you had a very socialiy hornogeneous population you would stiii have to
have a differential policy with regard to the striking differences in the
natural climatic iiature of the Territory. This would naturally mean a
decentralized form of government in any case, because the soutli is quite
difîercnt from the north or centre from the urelqfnatural resource view-
point of developnient. But apart from this, R e rnost important difference
is that tlie problem of economic development as 1have pointed out in my
previous reply, Sir, is quite different in the caof the White population
group cornparcd to that, as we economists would Say, of the most back-
ward or primitive economic groups, such as, for instance, the Bushmen.
I'here are also other population groups that difier considerably from each
other in respect of economic viabiIity, but 1 an1 mentioning these two
simply because itis more obvious and evidcnt that the ecoriomic ab-
sorptive capacity of the White group on the one side isdefinitely, as far
as 1am concerned-and 1am sure that every econornist would agree with
this-generations removed from that of the traditionally subsiçtence
orgrtnized type of societies and their economies. In the one case, it is a
human problern; in the other itis a purely economic-technical problem.
Hence, because your problems are differcnt );ou wiii have to have
different approaclies and you will have to use different measureç. You
wiii have to have different policies with regard to the economic develop-
ment of these particular groups and the areas which they occupy, Sir.
Jlr.~~ULLER: Would ou in the circumstanccs Say that it is necessary
to have different promotional measures, for example?
hlr.KROGHY :es, Sir. 1 think Ive can illustrate this with regard for
instance to the acquisition of land and the improvement of land, and
then we can also try and take another exaniple. 13utlet us first concen-
trate on the acquisition of land. In viesr of the higli agricultural potential
or productivity displayed by the members ofthe White group, they are
in a position to acquire land as a means of living or to effect economic
activityby purchasing it. They can recoup the cost or repay it from the
proceeds that will be derived from the productive effort that will go into
the developnlent of this Iand and the productive use that will be made
tliereof. In other aords, there is no need to give thern land as they cân
acquirc tliis by way of individual purchase witli a vicw to the prospect
ofthe high productive use to which thcy will put this land.
In contrast to this, you willfind that in the case of the non-White
groups, the individual who wants to acquire land will not be in a position
to actluire thisby paying for it in the same market. This to me clearly
reflects the differences in the productiveuse to wliich the two members
ofthese clifferent types of societies rnake of land, that is the difference in
their productive capacities.In fact, if youdo not give this land tonon-
Imite groups gratuitously 1 cannot see how else they will acquire it if
they have to compete in the same market for the land with members of
the IVhite community.
1can very briefly illustratethis point further. Let us take it thatthey
do acquire Iand one way or another, Say through differential measures
in mhich case it is givento the one and the other has to purchase it in
order to hold itfor his economic benefit; irnprovements to that land wiil
be affecteci automaticallyor çpontaneously, as it wcre, by the initiative
and again by the finance of the individualWhite farmer. You can in fact WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 81:
rely on the White farmer to bring this about. He just operates this way
traditionaiiy and, of course, with the aid of knowledge that he has ac-
quired over many gcnerations. The initiative he displays in this respect-
his econornic enterprise to bring about these iniprovements, to organize
themand finance them privately are traditional. Now, I am afraid that if
you rely on the private individus! in the case of the members of the other
groups to bring about automatically or spontaneously, as it were im-
provements to the land, given to them gratuitously, remernber, no such
improvements will be forthcoming without outside encouragement and
outside demonstration by way of example, without outside organization
and by way of outside finance. He is just not atan economically produc-
tive Ievel that ~vouldjustify him financing this privately with the pi-os-
pect of paying for this out of the productive ilse he would make of the
improved land. This does not refer only to agricultural development, 1
can also very easily illustrate this with regard to the development of
non-agricirltural activities, buI think another very good ex<unplewhich
is very miich relevant to the case of South West Africa is that of drought
relief. This can be regarded as a form of "promotion" rather than reha-
bilitation in a type of country where droughts are normal, such as in
South West Africa. Here you find that inthe case of the White farmer,
for instance, you can rehabilitate hirn by advaricing repayable loans to
him with the knowledge again that he wiLlwithin a relatively short
period be able to repay these due to his higher level of productivity and
the productive use he rnakes of his land. But in the case of the non-imite
farmer the amount will necessarily be smaller because he has no large
productive debt to begin with. Secondly, it wili largely take the form of
reIief and consist of basic foodstuffs and animal feed to keep man and
beast dive. It cannot possibly be expected of the member of the second
type of societyto repay this in view of the low productive use to which
he puts the land. 1 think this illustrates the point clearly that you have
to use differential measures in ordei to be fair and productive at the
same time. You have to recognize the different stages of economic
developrnent, and hence the different problems which to my mind
nccessarily callsfor differential economicpolicy nieasures of development.
Mr. ~~ULLER: The positioii that you jüst described-does that appIy
in respect of al1 the members of the different populations or have you
already in South West Africa attained a position where certain of the
non-iVhitc people have progressed towards the modern economy?
Rlr. KROGHS : irbearing in mind that 1 make a technical distinction
between :Lmodern, a commercialized and a traditionally subsistence
economy, 1 have no doubt that since 1920 nost of the mernhers of the
tradition-bound subsistence economies have in fact advanced to the
stage where their ways of earning a living are comrnercialized, both in
the sphert: of agriculture and in the sphere of wage-earning, generally
speaking. I cannot take every group individually now. They are no doubt
advancing towards a type of economy that 1hiive described as modern,
using modern techniques, modern forrns of organization, modern invest-
ment and finance, but 1cannot see this happening in terms of years or
even decades for that matter. This is a slow process of gradua1 develop-
ment. It would be completely wrong 1 think, and misleading, to imagine
that this can come about overnight orin the period of a five-year devej-
opment plan. This is absolutely falçe from the viewpoint of economlc
deve1opmi:nt.82 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. MULLER: Professor Krogh, ,before we recessed we were dealing
with differential measures of promotion. Would you tell the Court
whether the measures mentioned by you, or any other measures, are in
the nature of protective measures, that is, protective in the interests of
different population groups?
Mr. KROGH : es, SirIf we could take two examplcs to illustrate this
it rnight become clearer. With regard to land ownership, it foUowsfrom
what 1 have said previously in reply to other questions that it would be
necessary to protect the economically weaker or less productive or less
viable groups against the econornicalIy stronger and more resourceful
with regard to land ownership. Thus, for example, it would be necessary
to ensure that the economically more resourceful and stronger group
would not transgress onto the land owned by the economicaliy weaker
and less productive, for ifthis protection was not given I have no doubt
that in a relatively short period of time the economically weaker groups
holding land would not havc an opportunity to earn aliving on theland;
they would, in fact, become a landless people if no protection was
afforded in this respect.
Similarly, Sir,I can also, with reference to the whole plural nature of
the population of South West Africa-hy "plural" 1 of course mean
different social groups living in the Territory-very well understand and
appreciate the need for protection or restrictions on the ownership of
land by one member of one group in the area traditionally set aside, or
since set aside, or occupied by the mernbers of another group for the
sake of social peace. There may be the fear of land alienation-that the
opportunity to earn a living on the land will be taken away, and rnight
only after many generations again become available for the members of
that particular population group. First, then-1 shall putit very briefly-
to protect the economically weaker against the economical~ystronger and
more resourceful, and also for the sake of social peace. 1 could very well
imagine that even in the case where population groups are at the same
level of economic development, it could very well Leadto social strife and
upset the delicate social balance in the Territoryifmembersofonegroup
insisted on obtaining, or in fact obtained land occnpiedby another group,
if this other group felt that this would lead to the alienation of their
land. This does not onIy, Sir, apply to land owned by Whites on the one
hand and the different non-White population groups on the other. It
aLsorefers, Sir, to the occupation ofland by menibers of one non-White
population group that rnay be at the same level of economic development
as another group. This is a fact that you cannot ignore, and you will
ignore it at the expense of social peace and therefore, indirectly, at the
expense of economic CO-operationand developrnent in the Territory.
1 can also illustrate the need for protective rneasures, Sir, with regard
to ernployment opportunities. It rnay be lamentable from the.viewpoint:
ofeconomic development, but itis no use lamenting itor ignoring it ; ÿou
have to tackle these difficult problems and devise policies designed to
ensure the CO-operationof the different groups and to ensure social peace
before you can think in terms of economic development. The point here
is that1 can very well understand that the members of one population
group would give preference to job opportunities created by them or, in
fact, createdin their area or available in their area. They rnay prefer that
these jobs should be occupied by members of their group, and this is a
very obvious phenomenon, internationally and even in the admission of WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 83
migrant labourers fromthe Mediterranean countries to the more econom-
ically developed countries here, in the rest of Europe. The job oppor-
tunities created, and those that do in fact exist, are occupied largely by
the mernbers of a particular group in an area in which they occupy and
live: if they are economicaily weaker to occupy those jobs, then you will
have to protect them agajnst these jobs in fact being occupied by the
economically more skilful or stronger. This may not be in the economic
interest O-ithe Territory viewed as a whole, biit you cannot, under the
particular set of circumstances such as in South West Africa, always
regard tht: Territory as a whole as your socio-t:conomic unit. You have
to recognize, in addition, just as you would in the international world,
different population groups, and that these population groups in fact
constitute the socio-econornic units of developrnent for policy purposes,
1 can also very well understand that in the interest of the econornic
security 01 members of certain groups, if their job opportunities that are
occupied by them are in fact threatened, if their employment conditions
and their prospects for employment are threatened, they would in fact
insist upon protection against the alienation, as it were, of these job
opportunities by members of another group. Tlierefore 1 think there is
room ior protective measures with regard to the protection of the
economica.lly weaker against the economically stronger, and purely with
regard to social considerations of security and for tsake of social peace.
I cannot over-e~nphasize the need and the difficult task of ensuring social
peace under the circumstances of South West Africa. It is a Territory
where wars and mutual suspicions have characterized its long history
before 1920, and 1 feel that there is room for these protective measures
in the interest of economic welfare, as seen from the standpoint of the
different population groups, as the social units, and not purely as seen
from the standpoint of the Territory viewed as a whole.
Mr. MULLER: The measures which you have mentioned-do they
impose restrictions on individuals, members of different population
groups, arid if so, do you think that is justified?
Mr. KROGH:Well, Sir,I am not aware ofal1the restrictive measures
and reguiations operative in the case of Soutli West Africa, nor am 1
fully acquainted with al1the considerations that underlie tlie imposition
of these restrictive measures, but 1 do know of restnctive measures
operating in South West Africa with regard to land ownership for exam-
pie. I know that a number of other non-White population groups and,
for that matter, the members of the White group, are not in fact per-
rnitted or allowed to own land set aside for the exclusive ownership of
the members of some non-White population groups. I can explain this,
for instance, with regard to Ovamboland, or the Okavango, or Kaoko-
veld, any of these places, where members of the White group are not
allowed to own land. Neither are members of other non-White groups
-for example, from the south-allowed ta own land in, for instance,
Ovamboland. NOW, I can understand the White ~oup being excluded
from owning land there from the viewpoint of protecting the economically
weaker against the economicalIy more resourceful and stronger. 1 can
also understand that there would be social strife and upheavaI if the
Herero, for instance, were to come into Ovamboland and be permitted
to occupy Iarge parts of the land set aside for the Ovambo.
1 can very well understand that the authorities would be approached
to prevent and protect the Iand £rom being alienated from the Ovambo84 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
topfor instance, other population groups; or, the Ovarnbo entering again
an area set aside for the Bushmen, for instance. Ican very well under-
stand al1 this and that it may be necessary, for the sake of social peace
and the wishes of these different population groups, that there should be
protective measures in this regard.
1 also know of protective measures operating in the Imite area. 1
know that non-White members coming to the modern economy in the
White areas, seeking employrnent and being in fact employed there on
a large scale as wage-earners, are not prohibited from occupyiiig land,
for instance, in the urban areas, for resideritial or business purposes.
This is land which is set aside forthem and they are allowed to occupy
itbut they are, however, not allowed to own this land. This isa condition,
asit were, set by the White population group, that they are allowed to
reside there, to have the benefit of occupation of land for business and
economic purposes. They can, in fact, improve and put up businesses
there and use the economic benefit derived from the occupation of the
land.This does not prohibit them, or this does not in fact stopthem from
doing this.
1 have seen this very often myself. 1 mas there very recently again.
They put up businesses, they enter into business, they irnprove their
assets on thisland occupied by them, not feeling that these assets woiild
everbe taken away from them,or that they would be confiscated-never.
They would be compensated for this, 1 can assure you, if they were not
tolerated by rnembers of the Whitegroup, but to my knowledge they are
not allowed to own land there.
1 also know that there are no restrictive measures operating on tlie
ownership of land in what I cal1 the "White rural areas", except, 1
tliink, with regard to certain probational settlement schemes, but oii
the whole there are no restrictions placed, for example, on the ownership
of land in the rural White arens ïvith regard to non-Whitcs. In fact, as
far as 1know, there are no Natives owning land in the White rural areas
and this, to rny mind, illustrates that they are either not able to afford
this land-because the market value is deterrnined by the productive
use made thereof bÿ Imite farmers and they cannot afford this and
cannot use that land productively-or even ifthey can afford it,that
they probablv will not wish to stay there aniong these White far-
mers.
1also know that there are restrictive measures with regard to prosyec-
tingand mining rights. 1 know that IVhitesare prohibited from prospecting
or acquiring mining rights in the areas set aside for the non-IVhite
population groups. 1also know of similar measures operating in the \]'hite
sector-that non-[hites are, in fact, escluded from prospecting or
ohtaining rnining rights in the White area. \lrhy does this operate, this
last restriction?This is not on the grounds of protecting the economically
weaker against the economically stronger. It makes no sense. But 1 can
very well appreciate that this is for the sake of social peace and in the
interests of the White population group laying down these particular
restrictive measures, through feeling that the members of the other
popuIation groups have eqiial opportunities for owning, of prospecting
and of obtaining mining rights in their areas. Thiisa restrictive rneasure,
1 think, that might bejustified under the circumstances by the authorities
in view sirnply of the need for social peace, without which there cannot
be any considerabIe modern economic developrnent in theTerntory. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 85
1 aIso kiiow of restrictive measures with regard to the holding of jobs.
As 1 have illustrated, I know that administratively-1 do not know al1
the regulations and laws, 1 do not know aii the detailç-therc is prefer-
ence given to the employrnent of Ovambos in, for instance, jobs available
and created iiiOvamboland. 1 have in fact been there quite recently and
1have seen that in the field of public administration, jobs are being beld
and preierence isbeing given to the Ovambo to the estent that these
people are available. They are encouraged to hold jobs in the field of
public administration. 1have also seen them doing skilled jobs connected
with development projects that are in yrogress there on a large scale. 1
have seen Ovambo contractors making bricks, driving tractors and
employed in al1 sorts of other occupations. 1 sauT a factory there quite
recently, at Oshikati, not far from Ondangua, irhere on the factory floor
there were Ovambo skilied and unskilled workers. 1cannot quite recollect
the numbt:r but 1 should put it, very roiigbly, at let us sap çomething
like 25 or 30of them working there,and there were only atthat time two
Whites serving there to dernonstrate to them and to manage this par-
ticular factory, butOB the express understanding by the authorities that
as soon as a qualified membcr of the Ovainbo group uras able to do this
job this would be given to him, even if he were, economically speaking,
less qualified than the White manager to do this. This isI believe, also
the wish of the Ovambo. 1can quote otlier exainples but 1 do not think
that will be needed now.
1 also know that such restrictions on job opportunities, or what is
generally t-eferred to as the reservation ofjobs, exist in certain posts in
the mining industry in the White sector. 1am aware of these restrictions.
1 am also aware that in the supply of public transportation services in
the White sector there are restrictions on certain employment oppor-
tunities giving preference to members of the White group. I can vcry
lvel understand tliat for thc snke ofeconomic security and for the sakc
of avoiding any social strife, these reservations operate with regard to
certain posts to ensure the empioyrnent conditions and prospects for
members of the White group if ther were in fact threatened. 1 know of
this and 1 can uriderstand why these restrictions operate, buat the same
time it is very iniportant to remember th:tt a much wider range of restric-
tions 0per;ites with regard to job opportunities in the non-White areas
compared with these few posts in the niining industry and in the supply
of public transport.
1know in fact that preference is given to the employment of non-White
transportation personnel for the operatioriofrozidmotor services iii non-
Imite areas. 1 cnn understand the reason for these restrictions-yeç.
They are inthe interestsof protecting those who would otherwise have to
face unfair cornpetition from the economically stronger. I can also under-
stand that where this is not the case, even ifthciy were at the same level
of emnomic development, thrttit is çirnplymatter of the group insisting
upon and wanting these job opportiinities not to be occupied by
mernbers of the other group-that is wanting preference to be given to
the members of its particular group. Such restrictions are therefore for
the sake of social peace without which, 1cannot over-emphasizc, there is
little prospect of economic dcveloprnent in the Territory anyway.
Mr. MULLER M: r. Krogh, 1 have one final question. 1 want yoii to
express youropinion on ivhat the effect would be ifthese differential
measures of promotion and protection which you have mentioned wereS6 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
to be done away with by reason of applying ü nom, or a mie, or a
standard which prohibits differentiation onthe basis of membership in
a group, or race, or tribe.
Mr. KROGH W:ell, Sir, under the circumstances 1 have sketched to
you, and bearing in mind these diverse social and economic conditions
in South West Africa, I have little doubin saying that it would lead to
the rapid deterioration of the material and economic welfare of the
majority of tlie population, and by this1 particularly refer to the non-
White population groups. 1 can also see that they would not tolerate this
and that this might very well lead to social strife, that would in fact
arrest the economic development of South West Africa. The economic
developrnent of this Territory is exceptional in Africa, even having
grown from a lower base than that ofthe Republic of South Africa, it
has advanced at a rate faster than that of the Republic of South Africa
during the last 40 years during which the latter experienced a pheno-
mena1 industrial revolution. Confidence would be lost, economic develop-
ment and betterment would be arrested as a resultof encouraging, as it
were, social strife in the TerritoAnd, 1 cannot see how the long-term
basic problems of economic developrnent in South West Africa would
thereby be made any easier. In fact,1believe thatmore problems would
be added to itseconomic developrnent.
Mr. MULLER :hank you, Mr. President. 1have no further questions.
The PRESIDENTM : rGross.
hlr. CROSS 1:have questions, Mr. President.
Dr. Krogh, before asking you certain questions arising out of the
testimony which you have just given to the honourable Court, may 1
enquire, Sir, where you were born?
Alr.ICROGH As 1 have said in my testimony,I was bom in Windhoek.
Mr.GROSSI:n Windhoek: 1am sorry 1did not hear that, Sir. Andhow
long have you lived in South iVest Africa?
Mr. KROCH1 : lived in South West Africa until my seventeenth year
when 1 left the Territory tostudy further in South Africa, and thereafter
overseas. 1 have lived in South Africa ever since, where 1 work, and 1
have never held any jobs or positions in South iVestAfrica.
Xr. G~oss: Could you indicate to the Court, let us say to take an
arbitrary period, during the past five years, how muchtime, ifany, you
have spent in South West Africa?
&Ir.ICRQGHS : ir, the nature orny research that 1have mentioned is
such that it is most time-consuming, particularly the calculation of the
national expenditure and income series for South West Africa covering
the period 1920 to 1956, which was one of my important publicat,ions.
In the course of this work it was necessary for meto visit the Terntory
quite frequently.
Ihave also visited the Temtory occasionally, that means not regularly,
for the purposes of vacation, but1have not stayed there, in the sense of
living there, sincrny seventeenth year.
&Ir.GROSS Y:OUhave travelled throughout South \Vat Africa exten-
sively, have you?
Blr.KROGH 'es, 1 have travelled in the course of my research, of
course, and during vacations. 1 like the Territory very much-most
people cannot quite understand that, but 1 think that you have to be
born there in order to appreciate i1.have travelled intheTerritory but
because of thevastness of the Territory 1 have not, of course, been to WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 87
every corner of it, or to every part it;neither was this required for the
purpose of my research.
Mr. G~ciss: Was most of your research carrit:d out in Windhoek? Or
did you visit the northern areas for any extended periods as well?
Mr. KRCIGH I:must put it to you thiway, The are two publications
of mine 011the econornic aspects of South West Africa: the one is the
national incorne series. For this1 did in fact spend most of my time
in Windhoek as qroucan appreciate. This is the administrative capital
and this nieans that most of the material is available thereBut 1 have
also had the opportunity and in fact visited Ovamboland in order to
assess the economic possibilities there, and in order to ascertain, cal-
culate and estimate the production, the output, of this particular area.
1 also visit:ed some of the non-White Reserves in the southern sector of
the economy but,as you can know, 1 think there are quite a number-
something Iike 17 or so-and it was not necessary in the course of my
research to visit every one ofhese non-White territories.
Mr. GROSS: With respect to Ovamboland, Dr. Krogh, would you
indicate to the Court approximately how much time you have spent in
Ovamboland?
Mr. KROGH Y:es. This was in connection with rny research, because1
did not go there forany vacation purposes. I can remember very clearly
that 1 have been to Ovamboland for a period of three days. It was not
necessary, for my partic~dar research purposes, to go for any longer
period than that or to travel to every part of Ovamboland.
Rir.GROÇS: Altogether you have been in 0v;lrnboland three days, or
were these three-day trips? I didnot quite ...
Mr. KROGH : O. 1have been there for three full days.
Mr. GROSS1 : see. Altogether.
Mr. KR~GH:Yes.
Mr. G~oss: Did you, while you were there, have occasion to discuss
matters with the inhabitants of the Territory-economic matters or
other matters pertaining to their life or livelihoad?
hlr. KR~GH:1 have not discussed this in any detail with individual
Ovambos. Itis for me, as sornebody who has had experience in thiki~id
of researcli, to determine their main economic activities, to as.sess the
value of tliese and to lookai the different economic opportunitles open
to them. As a matter of fact,1 recall now that 1visited quite a number
of the individual büçinessmen who operate their businesses in Ovambo-
land, which was a very encouragirig sign1 discussed their problems rvith
them; aski:d them where they purchased their wares and what problems
they experienced with regard to the expansion of their businesses. I did
not discuçs in detail the agricultural problems of development with the
people of the Territory, butI did, however, obviously discuss this with
the agricultural officerwho are acquainted with these problems and,
who are in fact, doing everything in their power to improve the agricul-
tural potential of these territories, and also the plans they envisage in
this regard.
Mr. G~ciss:Were they Ovambos that you were referring tu just nom7?
Mr. KROGH:Yes,
Mr. G~ciss: In what language did you speak with them?
Mr. KROGH :he traders were, in fact, Ovambo (it was very interesting
in thisregard) who had been to the southern sector of South West Africa
as migrant workers and had since returned to establish and undertake88 SOUTH \'EST AFRICA
these businesses in Ovamboland, and they could speak Afrikaans to me.
This is a language I am very well acquainted with. They must have
acquired the languagc either in schools or inthe course of their work in
the southern part of the Territory.
Mr. GROSS:Did you encounter other Ovambos cngaged in other
purçuits or occupations who also can speak Afrikaans or Eriglish?
Mr.KROGHY : es.The Ovambos who are working in the administrative
offices can, of course, spexk Afrikaans fluently, usually having been to
school for a long period.1think this is a qualification they have to have
in the public administration services. Yes, 1 could communicate with
them in Afrikaans.
Mr. G~oss: As an cconomist, Sir, would you say that thc knowledge
or the capacity to speak Afrikaans would be an important factorin their
economic life and activity?
Nr. KROGH :ir, most of the communication with the outside world
which they have to have in order to pursue any modern economic
relations in South \Vat Africa-and this is true of the Territory as a
whole to get outside and isalso true with regard tu groups having
economic relations with the modern economic activity-their orders,
their communications for business purposes in fact-it is usualin your
business interest to learn the language of your customer or of your source
of supply. This is the case al1over the world and, in fact1should tiiink
that they would regard this as in their business interest either to acquire
German, English or Afrikaans to establish and maintain economic and
business relations with other sections of the community.
Mr. GROSS: Are yoii familiar, Sir, withthe approximate number of
Ovambos who annually corne to the southern sector for employment
purposes?
Alr. KROGH: Yes. 1 know these figures and their proportions.
Mr. G~oss: IVould you mind explaining to the Court how many arc..
on the average, each year, from Ovarnboland?
&Ir, KROGH:Yes. I would not bc able to give you this figure with
regard to Ovarnboland alone, but if you \vil1permit me to give you
an approximate figure in respect of the area lying to the north of the
Police Zone, this would include then Okavango and the Caprivi, but 1
know the number from Okavango and Caprivi is relatively small in
relation to the total number. In the 1960 census this was determined to
be virtually z8,ooo-it is 27,000-odd. 1 just want to point out in this
connection that this figure refcrs to the Police Zone-that is it refers to
the number at a.particular hour or evening of the census.
Mr. GROSS:Incidentally, for the sake of the Court's convcnience,
perhays it might be as wcll to point out that the figure just cited by
the witness corresponds to that ahich appears from the tables in the
Odendaal Commission report which is before the Court in theçe
proceedings. The tables 18 and 19,which rnay be found at pages 39 and
41 of the report, do indeed confirm the figures you have just stated, Sir.
With respect for a moment again to this language question that 1 W?S
pursuing, do you regard, as an economist, that the knowledge of Afri-
kaans, or any other linguri franca would be important to their pursuit of
their livelihood, or their economic advantage?-I am referring to the
Ovambos or other migrant labourers.
>Ir. KROGH: Sir, when you have economic (you want to use purely an
economic sense) relations, the two parties involved-and it is in the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
89
interest of these two parties to have tliese economic relations, otherwise
they would not have them, and it is in the interest of both parties to try
and understand each other better. Therefore you will find(1 know for a
fact) that Inany White farmers, for instance, and urban White dwellers
in South West Africa do speak some of these Native languages, that they
have infact acquired, and they have found it in their interests to acquire
this knowledge in order to address, to inform and instruct these wage-
earners as to what exactly is required of them in the couroftheir work.
So it is in their economic interest to communicate with these people
better. Sim.ilarly1would Saythat it would be in the interest of the party
coming from Ovamboland and working, forinstance, in the White sector,
to acquire, at least the most important single keywords or means of
instruction that are relevant to the nature of kis employment. This
would satisfy his employer, just as the employer would think that to
learn the language of the other group would satisfy the employee, and it
bvould be in the economic interests of both theje people, to the extent
that they communicate with each other, to try and acquire a better
understanding of the language of the other if they have different lan-
guages.
Mr. G~oss: How many vernaculars or tribal languages are roughly
spoken in the Territory?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, 1could not possibly give yoan answer. 1 know that
there are a great number, but 1 would not be able tope you that off-
hand.
Mr. GROSS: So that with reference to my question concerning the
desirability of a lingua franca from the economist's point of view, would
your answer bc that it is of importance to the development of the
economy of the Territory, and of the individual, in pursuing his live-
lihood?
&Ir.KROGH TOthe extent tllat they have ecooornic relations with each
other, 1think that any means of better communication or understanding
among the parties would be in the interest of both parties.
Mr. G~oss: 1 assume, Dr. Krogh, that the Court is to understand
that your reference to economic relations refers to potential as weli as
present eccinomicrelationships?
Mr. KROGH: E'es,1 would imagine so.
Mr. GROSS: In that case, just to clarify the point one step farther,
would the development of a lingua francain the Territory, tothe extent
feasible,facilitate increased economic relationships?
Mr. KROGH : would answer that question with regard to South West
Africa, 1tliink, in this way, by saying that obviously it would irnprove
economic relations between them,but of course, if thiç has to be at the
expense of a particular group's language there will be difficuIty1can
very weil understand that, and we have this problem even in the White
economy in South Africa. We have the two official languages, as you
probably know-EngIish and Afrikaans-but you find that the Afrikaans
group has a long history of having fought, ~ioliticaily speaking and
socialIy speaking, for the right of their language to become an economic
language. As you probably appreciate, the two languages-English and
French-are virtually the international commercial languages of the
world. But if thishas tobe at the expense of tlie development of other
languages--1 can very well understand that they would insist upon this
not happening or, in fact, coming about at the expense of this particulargo SOUTH WST AFRICA
language. 1can imagine this could very well be the case, but 1 must Say,
and this is definitely true, that if you can improveunderstandinbetween
parties participating in economic relations, that this would be to their
individual benefit unless any one of the parties would object to this on
other than economic grounds. It is very important, 1think, to remember
that economists should constantly bear in mind that economic con-
siderations are not always and everywhere the prime and overriding
consideration.
Mr. CROSS: But to the extent that we are speaking here, and you are
speaking as a distinguished economist, you have, 1think, fairly testified
that there is a relationship between the establishment of a communication
by common language, whatever itmay be, and economic development.
Would that be a fair version of your testimony?
Mr. KROGH :es, 1 could Say this, but may 1 just add that it is be-
coming increasingly appreciated among economists that the çubject of
economic development is far too diflicult and important a problem to be
left to economists alone. They are inclined to think that economic
development is the only and prime consideration and this is not always
the case and they are increasingly appreciating this.
&Ir.G~oss:Thank you, Sir. Ithink that, at this point, it may perhaps
be well to set a focus for subscquent questions that 1 intend to put to
you and where you speak as an economist you will undoubtedly, in the
light of what you have just said, also consider pertinent sociological, or
human, or other points of view that are within your sphere of experience.
1should likc to read an excerpt from Article 22 of the Covenant of
the League of Nations which defines the sense and purport of the man-
dates system, and have it in the record at this point so that it may be in
your mind, Sir, as we discuss matters from here on.
1 have no doubt you are familiar with Article 22, paragraph I, of the
Covenant, which 1 should like to place on the record at this point.
"To those colonies and territories which, as a consequence of the
late war, have ceased to be under the sovereignty of theStates which
formerly governed them, and which are inhabited by peoples not yet
able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the
modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-
being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of
civilization and that securities for the performance of this trust
should be ernbodied in this Covenant."
1 emphasize for this purpose-the purpose of my questions to you,
Dr. Krogh-the concept of territories "inhabited by peoples not yet
able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the
modern world".
And, then, one more briefreference to what is undoubtedly well known
to you from the second Article of the Mandate itself:
"The Mandatory shall promote to the utmost the material and
moral well-being and the social progress of the inhabitants of the
Territory, subject to the present Mandate."
In the discussion of the development-the history of the develop
ment-which you traced at the outset of your testimony-the economic
development of the Territory-would you Say, Sir, as an economist, that,
in any scientific sense of the word or technical sense of the term, the
inhabitants of the Territory at the present time, in the words of the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 91
Covenant, are now "able to stand by thernçelves under the çtrenuous
conditions of the modern world"?
Mi. KROGH: Sir, 1 would Say that, economically speaking, they are
weli on their way to arriving at positions where they could be expected
in due course to become economically viable. Yes, 1would Say that they
are definitely far more advanced than they were in xgzo and that the
prospects of them acquiring and in fact fulfdling thedesire and ideal
expressed by you, as in the documents, are well advanced. This whole
situation is dynamic. It shows a process whereby new opportunities are
continually being created for them. It is only during the post-war period
that they have, in fact, begun to display enterprising qlialities of under-
taking businesses on their own in their particutarareas. And tkis is a
most encouraging sign. I believe this to be the result of the security they
have in this regard-the establishment of law and order, good forms of
public administration-and then there isalso the market that has been
growing in South West Africa giving them increasing incentives. They
are not engaged in any export activity at this stage but they are, in fact,
exploiting economically the growing market possibilities that are spread-
ing al1over the Territory in view of modern eco~iomicdevelopments.
1would 3ay, furthermore, that it would be very unfair and; in fact,
misIeading to expect these people to become economically developed in
the modern sense of the word in terms of two generations. 1 think it
would be very unwise to expect that to corne about.
Mr. GROS: Would you Say, Sir, that the development of accompiish-
ment to which you have referred could be interpreted as a response to
the economic and educational opportunities which have been offered to,
or created t'or,the inhabitants?
Mr. KROCH Y:es,Iwould Say that the incentives for econornic develop-
ment-the opportunities, and the qualities of the people have improved.
Definitely, yes, Ithink they have improved considerably. As a matter
of fact, 1think it ia record to be proud of.
Mr. GROSS W: ould you Say, Sir, asan economist and as aperson ho,
as you have testified, has an extensive knowledgeofeconomic conditions
in South West Africa . . .?
Mr. KROGH Y:es,Sir,I would Say fairly extensive, asI have indicated
just now, the nature of my interest .. .
Mr. GROÇS:1 had not quite finishedmy question. I was not questioning
you-1 was referring toit inthat setting. 'lvould you tell the Court what
your appreciatioi~ or understanding is of the "lack of enterprise", ïvhich
was the phrase you used, with respect to the non-White groups? 1believe
I fairly reflect your testimony. Will you explain to the Court what you
meant by reference to "lack of enterprise", to what you attribute your
judgment in that regard?
Mr. KROGH:Well, Sir, the enterprising qualities of apeople are not
determined purely by technical aspects nor simply by edocation. This
is an illusion that is increasingly being realized and appreciated with
regard to the development problems of underdeveloped peoples. In fact
it is recognized,if youstudy the economic plans of development in the
restof Africa, that in view of the Iack of indigenous enterprising mdivid-
uaI qualities, that major emphasis is placed on these enterprising func-
tions being undertaken by the State, that is by the public authocties
now especially, after they have become independent. 1 have this on
record if you woiild like i1.have quite a few authontative studies that,g2 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
in fact,substantiatethis.1 can think of a particular one by the Economic
Commission for Africa. Ifyou like I could supply that for you. It isnot
just simply a matter of the lack of economic opportunity or of a market,
this is something thatgoes much further than the economist can explain.
It is a çocio-cultural factor that goes further back, and on which 1 am
not an expert, although 1 have some knowledge of it in view of the
nature of the problem, but 1 have not studied the socio-cultural origins
of these varying enterprising qualities and aptitudes displayed by
members of different groups. But this is quite well known internationally
and, it is recognized as the main source of sustained economic develop-
ment-a source of development that can be relied upon in certain types
of societies but notinothers, and in the case ofthe latter this has to be
supplemented or taken over by public initiative, organization and finance,
at least at a particular stage of development, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Without pursuing this matter too rnuch further but for
the sake of understanding, you have testified,think, that in South West
Africa the advancement, you Say if 1recall your words, is rather grati-
fying or remarkable or words to that effect. Would youeIaborate again,
if OU will please Sir,whether the "enterpriseu-in the sense in which
you use the term-which isreflected in this advancernent is the result of
opportunity, education and economic opportunity which has been
available to the indigenous inhabitants during the past pears?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, it is the essence of development, to create economic
opportunities, to extend the market and, in fact, to improve the qualities
of the population, to perceive, and to exploit these economic oppor-
tunhlr.G~oss: IVould it not follow, Sir, then, that enterprise isa conse-
quence of opportunity?
Mr. KROGH:Not necessarily, no. In fact it is quite common in South
Africa, where you have . . .
&Ir.G~oss: May 1address myself to South West Africa, if you do not
mind?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, 1 just thought Imight take a good example from
South Africa.
The PRESIDENT:The witness rnay give his answer in relation to any
country if you ask that general question, Mr. Gross.
Mr. GROSS M:r. President, with respect, 1 thought it might aid the
witness i1 clarified and limited my question but of course he can answer
it in anyway.
The PRESIDENT B:ut YOU put to him a general question and he may
give a general answer.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir,of course.WiIl you please answer it in whatever
way you wish. .
Mr. KROGH:1 can also answer this with reference to South West
Africa. You find in the Native reserved areas purchasing power or a
market, brought about by the people bringing in funds or their income as
migrant workers returning home-this is the one mai? source of incorne.
The other source ofincome is through the commerc~alized sale of thelr
livestock, for instance, and this gives them large amounts of money.
Now, this market-this purchasing power-is available there but you
would often encounter nobody in fact exploiting this particular market.
You find that these people would travel long distances and also, in fact,
return as migrant workers bringing with them goods from other areas. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
93
This illustratesthat there is a market available there but that the
economic opportunities are, in fact, not perceived nor are they exploited
by mcmbers of this group. This, to my rnind, dearly indicates that there
jsnot a Jack of economic opportunity to exploit. However, these oppor-
tunities must of course be there to encourage or to make this possible
eventually. 1 can name you quite a few examples where such oppor-
tunities were permitied to be exploited by mernbers of the IVhite group
who were allowed under special permit to have trading stores or business
premises in these aress.I witnesçed just about a month and a haIf ago
a case in the Ovitoto Reserve where a non-White business man was being
assisted to take over the business premises of a White trader. The
particular Herero, in fact, came from Katutura to take over this business,
and it is oi course the policy of the administration that the Herero sIiould
have preference in his nrca.
There had not previously been a Herero that would, or could, exploit
these trading possibilities. Nevertheless there are definite signs-very
encouraging signs-that this type of business people are emerging. as it
were, at this stage. 13uttheseopportunitieshad already existed previously
as was witnessed by the fact that it was exploited by a member of
another group.
alr.CROSS: IVould you Say, Sir,that there were factors that might be
called inn:~te, or are there factors to which you refer as cultural or
traditional which inhibit enterprise where opportunity is presented?
Mr. KROGH :ir, asan economist, 1 would say that cultures are differ-
ent. Certain cultures emphasize certain huma11 qualities or values iii
contrast to others. Furthermore, cultures are never static, they change
over tirne. Economic history shows that private enterprise is not re-
stricted to aparticular culture.
At one time it \vas believedthat private enterpriseonly emerges from
a particuIar religion or a particular culture, but this is not generally
accepted today. It can be shoivn that incultures which had previously
not delivered or in fact brought forth enterprising units, such people
would in fact come to the fore afterthe social structure had changed or
the culture had incorporated certain other elements.
The important point is, however, that cultures differ. Itrnay take a
very long t.ime for one culture to produce this type of enterprising uriits
for economic development units. It rnay first have to change in order
to bring them forward, or even have encouragement and incentive to
do so. Other cultures again deliver the peopIe spontaneously, as it were.
Over the centuries, they have already adapted themselves. AS a mattcr
of fact, it is quite interesting to mention, Sir-1 do not Iike to use the
terminology here, because it is reçtricted to a technical field and has
particular meanings there and may be misconstrued here, but 1 rnay
mention the work of the eminent economist Professor W. W. Rosto~' lin
this respect. In hiThe Stages ofEconomiG crowfh w,hich is widely quoted
and widely used he rnakes the distinction between what he calls "tradition
bound" and "free-born societies". Now theçe terms are used in the
economic scnsc, it is not to be construed in any wong or bad sense.
They just mean in the case of the latter that there are no cultural con-
straints on people to pursue individual economic opportunitien-it seems
to come automatically as it were in that type of culture.In free-barn"
societies the individiinl is not culturally bound in the economic sense.
On the other hand, tliere is a type of çociety which is usually found in the SOUTH WEST AFRICA
94
under-developed world-economically known as a "tradition-bound"
society. This simply rneans that the problem of economic development
liesin gradua1 cultural change, and is not sirnply a matter of supplying
foreign aid and technical assistanceto them. It is not a pure econornic-
technical problem, it is basically a social cultural problem that it takes
a long time to produce these enterprising people. Nevertheless, the fact
is that they are in due course produced-there is no doubt about this-it
does not mean that it isaparticular raceor peculiar culture, it just takes
time to change cultures.
The two concepts mentioned make it quite clear to me that as far as
the cultural factor is concerned, one type of culture or way of life wil1
produce enterprising and dynamic econornic units (units refer to people)
much quicker, easier, autornatically and spontaneously than another.
This is generally recognized in the literature on problerns of economic
development with regard to the cultural aspect, but there is no question
of the one being superior or inferior to the other. This is purely an
economic issue and a culture, as you no doubt very well appreciate,
consists of verymuch more than economic values, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Sir, if it is accepted, as you testified, that there are factors
other than opportunity which condition development or enterprise,
would it be equally fair to Say that from an economist's point of view
there isa correlation between the degree of opportunity and the degree
of development or enterprise, everything else being equal?
Mr. KROGH1 :would appreciate if you . ..
Mi- .ROSS :s therea correlation between the degree of opportunity
available and the degree of development accomplished-is there a
correlation between those two factors from the economist's point of
view, everything else being equal?
Mr. KROGH: Sir,I would Say that if you have an economically viable
people aiid there are not opportunities to develop, they would create
thern. This is the characteristic feature of economic development. It is
not just a matter of giving people an opportunity to develop-if they
cannot develop due to the lack of opportunity thcy create these oppor-
tunities by undertaking and irnproving and automatically negotiating
and trading with outside people and in fact creating economic oppor-
tunities. This is the main characteristic of economic developrnent.
Mr. GROSSB : y "they" inthe context of your reply to my question do
you mean the people themselves-are you referring to those people?
Mr. KROGH: Yes. 1 think I see what you are getting at now, Sir,
namely whether you can facilitate this process. Yes, that is possible.
You can make it easier for them, after al1 thatis the purpose of aid to
the economically less-developed countnes of the world, namely to
facilitate the process. But you cannot "pusha rope"-this simply means
that you cannot make them develop with the best will and the most
generous purse if, in fact, they cannot make useof these opportunities.
This is generally acknowledged, Sir.
Mr. GROSS : hank you. 1 was intending to refer, Sir, to the mandate
undertaking to which 1 referred and without engaging you in what
would properly be regarded no doubt as a legal interpretation, which 1
do not intend to. 'lVould you understand, Sir,that from the economic
point of view that the promotion to the utmost of welfare and progress
as a mandate duty would involve pains, assistance and expense from
outside the group itself in order to bring them along to the utmost as WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 95
rapidly as possible? Would this affect in any way your earlier reçponse
to the effortimplied by the word "they" as you used it?Do 1 rnake my
question ciear, Sir?
hlr. KROGH A:m 1interpreting you correctly when 1say that 1 must
try and give m opinion on what is understood ta be "to the utmost"?
Mr. G~oss: fn the context of South West Afsica and as an economist
interpreting,if you will, the trust obligation, the mandate obligation1
am asking you, Sir, to evaluate asailexpert the importance of the factor
of external assistance to the development of enrerprise and opportunity
in the Territory-is thatan important factor, can you answer that yes
or no?
Nr. KROGH :Yes,Sir. I think assistance would be important, of course,
and depending where this assistance cornes from. If you take South
Africa, for instance-itwas understood to be the Mandatory 1take it-
it was itself at an early stage of economic development. It is onIy since
the beginning of World $VarII that is has really become industrialized,
and has only now arrived at a stage where it can be regarded as a capital
exporting country. It was a capital importing country itself, being highly
dependent on foreign sources of savings, and siipply of ski11and ftnter-
compare the situation of South Africa today with that before Worldeading to
\Var II. It could then not possibly have assisted the Territory's economic
development to the extent that Great Britain or France or Bclgium could
have assist.ed the development of their African territories. 1 think this
would be an unfair cornparison and 1 do not think that this could have
been espected under the circumstances. I think that dears up the point
with regard to external help and assistance.
The approach to South West Africa was to create modern economic
activity in the Territory itself that would in due course supply the
necessary public revenue and experience, extend the market and at the
same time offer employment opportunities. The latter expressed as a
ratio to the population of South West Africa is several tirnes higher than
that in any other country in Africa, with the exception of the Republic
and partly also Southern Rhodesia.
Mr. GROSS: 1 should iike, with the Court's permission, to revert to
that question subsequentiy. 1 wvouldlike to revert now, houFever,to the
question arising from your testimony with respect to the development of
enterprise and the, shall we cal1 it, rnodernization of the individual-
would that be an acceptable phrase incidentally, Dr. Krogh?
Mr. RROGH:This is an Arnerican phrase. 1 object to the use of the
term becailse 1 feel thatit isnot a technical phrase. It isa popu!ar
phrase conveying the idea that you can just take people and modernize
them overnight, asit were. I object to that concept.
Xr. GROSS1 : wili cheerfully withdraw the expression. Shalwe say, in
the case of South West Africa, the change from a traditional subsistence
economy to a modern economy in the language of the econornists?
Afr. KROGHY : es, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: So what, Sir, would you Say, is the effect upon such a
transition, sucha change of a long continued association in the economy
of White and non-White in the same area in South West Africa?
Iir. KROGH:Sir, 1tvould say it is generally secognized-and 1 am not
Labour Office who have studied the problem of economic developmentlg6 SOUTH \TEST AFRICA
and commercialization in Africa and1 rely not only on them but1rely on
the expert views also of the Economic Commission for Africa which, in
fact, has stressed it-thathe most important way and the most effective
way of changing a type of subsistence economy into a commercialized
and modern economy is in fact by way of wage earning. In other wordç,
more so than through the commercialization of subsistence cropping.
The PRESIDENT: 1 did not catch preciseIy what pou said about "wage
earning".
Mr. KROGH : evelopment through wage earning rather than through
crop raising, because it involves a complete social change, much more so
than in the case of crop raising. In the case of the latter, primitive tech-
niques of production become commercialized and it is only a slight step
further or beyond that which had traditionally been undertaken in the
subsistence type of economy. In the wage economy, on the other hand,
which is completely foreign, itaimajor break-away, as it were, from the
traditional type of subsistence economy, and this is probably the most
important way of bridging thisgap and in speeding this transition from a
subsistence type of economy to a modern economy. In fact, Sir, this is
the main economic objective of development in African States today.
They want industrialization to create wage-earning opportunities rather
than concentrate on the very gradua1 process of agricultural development
way of commercialization. This is stated in virtually more than half,
P should say, of their development plans. The point ... I am probably
not answering your question, Ihave forgotten the second part of it1am
afraid ...
The PRESIDENT :erhapç you might have a look at it between now
and tornorrow morning. Mr. Gross, if it is convenient we will adjourn
now.
[Public hearingof 23 September19651
The PRESIDENT:The hearing is resumed. Doctor, will you go to the
podium, pleaçe. hlr. Gross.
Mr. GROSS: Dr. Krogh, it may be convenient to yourçelf and to the
Court if we were to place into the record at this point-and it willbe
relevant to certain questions which 1 propose to address to you-the
general picture of the population of the southern sector, or Police Zone,
in the Territory of South West Africa. With the President's permission,
1 should like to refer to the table18 and 19 at pages 39 and 41 of the
Odendaal Commission report, which is in the documentation of these
proceedings.
The PRESIDENT:This document you are referring to, Mr. Gross, is
already in evidence?
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. Dr. Krogh, are you familiar with the Odendaal
Commission report?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, as you will appreciate, it is a very voluminous report
and I have not studied the whole report, only those sections which in-
terest me for my particular field of studyI am therefore aware of the
tables to which you are referring, and also know more or less the propor-
tions involved inthe population distribution.
Mr. G~oss: Now referring specifically to the portions of the report WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 97
which relate to economic or demographic factors, were you, if Imay ask
Sir, consultedby the members of the Odendaal Commission or stafwith
respect to the report itseIf in any aspect?
.r. KROGH:Sir, 1 appeared as a witness before the Odendaal Com-
mission, yes.
Mr. GROSSI :t icorrect, is it, Sithat your tvorks are cited in various
portions of the report?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, they refer to me in that connection.
hlr.G~oss: 1 did not quite understand the answer to my question.
You Say you appeared as a witness before the Commission? Did Iunder-
stand you correctly, Sir?
Mr. KROGH : Yes, Iappeared as a witness before the Commission.
Mr. GROSS: On economic factors pertaini~ig to the Territory?
hlr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS :id you prepare or draft any sections of the report?
Mr. KROGH:NO,Sir.
Mr. GROSS:The tables which 1have in mind, which, with the Court's
permission, 1should like to insert here in round numbers, include the
following and relate to, first, the southern sector, or Police Zone, as a
whole, and then certain areas thereof.
The total population, as I understand it, Z40,000, in round numbers,
including migrant labour, approxirnately 27,000, on the average, a total
of 267,000.
The total White population, those classified ;isWhite in the census
category, is about 73,000. The total non-lVhite population is approsi-
mately 166,000, and including migrant labour, present temporariiy at
any one tirrie194,000.
Now, secondly, with reference to the total non-LtThites outside the
Reserves, they are 128,000, and including migrant labour, ï5j,ûoo. In
the urban areas the figures are for non-Whites as follows: those classified
or referred to as Natives, 49,000, and those classified or referred to as
Basters or Coloureds, 10,000.
Now coming to the non-Whites in the rural areas, those classified as
Natives, 64,000, and those classified as Basters and Coloureds, 4,000:
total of non-Whites in the rural areas, 68,000.
Then, corning to the Keserves in the southern sector, those classified
as Natives, 29,000, Basters and Coloureds, ro,ooci: a total of 39,000 non-
\hites in the Reserves.
Then, just to cornplete the picture, Whites in the urban areas, 54,000:
Whites in the rural areas, 20,000.
The PRESIDENT:Mr. Gross, could you give the Court the pagination
of the Cominission's report, from which these figures are taken?
Mr. GROSS: Yes, Sir, 1 was just about to do that. These figures are
derived entirely hy computations made from tables 18 and 19, at pages
39 and 41,respectively, ofthe report of the Odendaal Commission, tech-
nically known and published as the Rt?portof theCommission oflnguiry
into Soz6thlYest Africa Afaius, 1962-1963, publiihed in South Africa as
document KP No. 1211964.
The PRESIDENT: If YOU are going to cross-examine the witness on
these figures I think perhaps it would be convenient if the witness had
a copy of tfie Odendaal report before him.
hlr.G~oss: Yes, Sir, that would perhaps be corivenient to tlie witness.
1 had, Mr. President, advised the witness, just prior to the commence- SOUTHWEST AFRICA
98
ment of the proceedings, that 1 would ask certain questions with respect
to the Odendaai Commission report.
The PRESIDENTP :ages 39 and 41-the tables.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, pages 39 and 41-the tables. However, 1 do not
propose, Dr. Krogh, to case your mind on this, to cross-examine you with
respect to the accuracy orothenvise of these figures, which are accepted,
but to focus on certain questions on the situation from an economic point
of view with respect to the economy in the areas of the southern sector,
outside the Reserves particularly. 1will remind you from tirne to time,
if it ishelpful, that we are dealing primarily with that area and the
numbers, therefore, to fix them in your mind again, Sir, outside the
Reserves-total non-Whites, including migrants, 155,000 That is broken
down {non-\mites), in urban areas, 59,000, in rural areas, 68,000.
Now, Sir, do you have any question about those figures, incidentally?
Mr. KROGH 1:think that they are quite clea1.cannot check them just
at the moment, 1 wiii have to look forthem but I know what you have
in mind.
Mr.GROSS1: would like first to refer to another section of the Odendaal
Commission report, which has been the subject of previous testimony, to
which 1shall refer briefly, and in particular turn your attention to page
31 of the report, paragraph 113, at the bottom of the page, and 1should
like, i1 may, to read it. This refers to the Damara tribe and is part of
the study on population, which is the heading of Chapte2 on the previous
page-
"With ttie arriva1 of the Whites, resuiting in increased persona1
safety and greater development, the Damara were able to evolve a
totally new way of life. Large numbers were absorbed in the economy
of the southern part of the country and displayed exceptional .
aptitude as ernployees."
May 1 pause there to ask you, let us say as an expert, what meaning
you would attribute to the phrase "absorb in the economy"? Ilrhat
significance rvould you attnbute to that phrase?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, as an economist and as somebody who knows and
has some knowledge of conditions in South West Africa, 1 woiild Say
that it is an unfortunate choice of terminology because it is rnisleading.
It gives the wrong impression. It reflects the idea that these people are
a hornogeneous section of the \mite economy in the sense that as any
other factor of production they enjoy complete freedom of movement, of
location, and, in fact, participatein this economy, irrespectiveof their
membership of a group. This is not true. They do not, in fact, form a
homogeneous unit of the economy as any other factor of production
would in a homogeneous society.
Hence, I think the word "absorbed", if it conveys the idea that these
people areso intimate a part and parce1 of the economy that you cannot
distinguish between them as economic units, and, for instance, the White
members of the White group, as economic units, then I think it is mis-
leading. I would prefer-and 1 think it would be a better reflection and
a true description-to Say that these members (the Damara we are re-
ferring to at the moment) are economically inter-related withthe modern
White economy-the economy of South West Africa-is it not homoge-
neous in the sense that these people participate in it as a member would
of a homogeneous society. To the extent that the word "absorbed" gives WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 99
the idea that they form a homogeneous part of the White economy, I
think the term is misleading. It isanunfortunate choiceof terminology.
A much better description of the economy would have been given if it
was said that these people, became, in fact, inter-related with, or, took
up employrnent in this economy.
Mr. GROSS: Do you distinguish then, Sir, as an economist, between
employment, on the one hand, and entrepreneuiial participation in the
economy, on the other? What is the distinction which you ~voulddraw
in technical or economic terrns between absorption and employment in
the sense in which you distinguish them?
Mr. KROGH: YOUsee, Sir, an economist would Say you have a homo-
geneous economy if the factors of production (that would be, very briefly,
labour, capital,entrepreneurship and ownership of land) were, in fact,
freely used, without any limitations or restrictions,by al1 the members
of this particular community. If there was complete freedom of com-
petition, and freedom of rnovement, applying to al1the memhers of that
particular Society, then you would refer to it as a hornogeneouseconomy.
You find this, I think, well illustrated on the international level. You
have an inter-related world economy composed of different national
econornies. The factors of production move freely and competc freeljr in
the national sphere of the econorny but not in the international sphere
of the world economy. Therefore, to refer to, for instance, Britain as
forming an integrated part of the world economy is not, technically
speaking, a true and correct description. The point is that England is
inter-relatecl with the world economy. Itisa rathcr important distinction
because terminology such as "absorbed" or integrated sometimes used
loosely in journalism, wrongly conveys the idea that there are no restric- '
tions or limitations on the movement of, for instance, labour into Britain
from the outside world, or of the outflow of capital, or on the ownership
of the production factor-land, for instance-relative to the outside
world. 1think this example illustrates what I have in rnind. If you use
the word "absorhed" you would mean there would be no limitations
whatsoever on the rnovement of the production factors between different
economies and 1, therefore, think it is an unfortunate choice of termi-
nology.
Technically speaking, an economist svould Say that an economy is
homogeneous if tIiere are no customary, adrninisi.rative and other forms
of restrictions on the movernent of production factors, or the ownership
of these production factors, within the national boundaries of a country.
This is the point 1 tried to make with regard to the dual economy
earlier yesterday. In this case there is usually no freedom of movernent of
Iabour or even in the ownership of land. There are, in fact, two different
economies. There is this difference, yes, Sir. 1woulti not Say that this is an
integrated economy, but a dual economy. 1 also want to stress the point
that these clifferences compare with those that exist between national
economies iii the world economy.
Mr. GROSS: lVou1d you Say, Dr. Krogh, that the economy in the
southem sector of the country could purportedly be called "diversified"?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, to speak about a diversified economy is to indicate
different types of economic activity.If youonlyhad agricultural activity,
then you would say this is a monocultur$ or a non-diversified economy.
If you have considerahle manufacturing industry, and service industries
as well, and so forth, you would Say it isa diversified economy-it has1O0 SOUTH WEST AFRIC.+
more than one type of economic activity-but this does not refer to the
production factors that 1 referred to just now. "Diversity" refers only
to the industrial structure of the economy. If it did not have different
avenues or types of economic activity, then it is a non-diversified eco-
nomy. If it is highly industrialized, and has agriculture, rnining and
fkhing activity developed, then we refer to it as a diversified economy.
Very briefly, ifyou want to industrialize, for instance, and you have
an agricultural economy, you would saythatthe objective is to diversify
the economy. It is to develop other new avenues of economic activity,
apart from agriculture, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: On the basis of this analysis, theii, if1 may revert to my
question to you, would you characterize the southern sector of the
Territory as a diversified economy? Could that be answered "yes" or
"no"?
MT. KROGH:It is difficult to answer "pes" or "no". It depends on
whether you are comparing the southera sector of South iVest Africa-
the economy of the southern sector of South West Africa-with, for
instance, the Republic of South Africa, or the United States, or Ghana.
If 1must Say "yes" or "no" 1have to know what you have in rnind
because this is rcomparative concept. It depends on what your basis of
comparison is. 1would say that,relative to tropical Africa, it could be
described as diversified, but as cornpared, for instance, to theRepubIic
of South Africa, it is definitely not diversified.
Mr. GROSS:What 1 had in miiid, Sir, was with refercncc to paragraph
127 on page 33 of the Odendaal Commission report, from which 1 read
the following:
"Approximately half of the Werero are absorbed in a diversified
economy of the Southern Sector of the country, while the other half
are herdsmen in the home areas."
You have already indicated, if 1 understood correctly, a difference of
opinion or question about the use in the Commission report of the word
"absorbed". Do you wish to elaborate your response with respect to the
use of the phrase "diversified economy of the Southern Sector", as used
in the Commission report?
Nr. KROGH\: Veil, Siras 1 explained toyou, it depends on what the
Commission compared it with. The Commission probably compared this
with the northern sector of South West Africa. 1think they had that in
mind and, therefore, 1think the southern sector could be described as
diversified compared with the econorny of the nortliern sector ofSouth
West Africa, but it would not and could not be describcd as a diversified
economy compared, for instance, with that of the Republic of South
Africa, Great Britain, Europe or the United States of Arnerica. 1 do not
think itis a fair description at alas far as that is concerned.
Mr. G~oss: You think that the Odendaal Commission description is
not a fair description? Did1 understand you correctly, Sir?
Mr. KROGH :ir, it depends on what you have in mind and 1 think the
Commission rnust have had in rnind contrasting here the southern
economic structure with that of the north of the Police Zone. 1 would
imagine that iswhat theyhad in mind and, used in that context, 1 think
thesouth could be described as having an industrialized, diversifieeco-
nomy, comparatively speaking, if this is what they had in mind and 1
think, indeed, they had that in mind, Sir. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 101
hlr.GROSS D:r, Krogh, in your testimony before the Commission,were
you questioned by the Commission or did you advert to the character of
the econom y in the southern sector?
Mr. KROGH: Sir,1 can remember quite well that when 1 appeared as
a witness before the Commission they did not c:onsult me on technical
matters of termiriology-no, they did not consult me on that.
Mr. G~oss: LVould you regard the description of the economy as a
technical matter? Ifso, 1 would like to rephrase my question? Did you
in your testimony before the Commission testify, or were you asked for
your views, asan expert, concerning the nature of the economy in the
southern sector in economic terms?
Mr. KROGH:l'es, Sir. They asked me about the possibilities of in-
dustrialization in the southern sector and what 1 would regard as the
basic problems of economic development in South West Africa, a+ its
present stage of development. They did ask me about the nature-yes.
Mr. GROSS : f the economy?
Mr. KROGH: The prospects and posçibilities and the extent to which
progress kad been made, and soforth-they asked me such questions,
yes. 1 cannot quite recollect exactly what theg xked me but 1 know it
was concer~iedwith these matters.
Mr. G~oss: Now, would the explanations you have given to the Court
with respect to these terms, and your appreciation of them as an expert,
also apply to the finding in section133 of the report on page 35, from
which 1read the last sentence as foilows:
6Tht: economy of their area [parentbetically, this refers to Ovam-
boland] is stimulated by the approximately 27,000 workers em-
ployed at any given timein the diversified economy of the Southern
Sector ofthe country for periods varying from one to two years, in
the case of mamied perçons, and one to two and ahalf years, in the
case of single perçons."
Do you wish to elaborate, or amend in any way, the testimony you have
given with respect to the use of these phrases in other contexts of the
report 1 have read?
Mr. KROGH Sir,I do not think itiçnecessary to elaborate on that.It
is quite clear to me, and1 think itiç completely correct with regard to
the stimulation of the private economy in the northern sector. 1 know
that the purchasing power in the private sector largely derives from the
southern sector as income that is brought back bp these migrant workers
and, as 1 illustrated to you yesterday, the individual business men and
traders,who are, in fact emerging and establishi~ig themselves in Ovam-
boland, had without exception, been migrant workers in the South. So,
1 would say that the çtimuluçforthe economic development of the private
sector in thil northern territories originateç, and its momentum is derived
from the contact that migrant workers have witli the southern sector.
The PREÇIDENT: This question is directed, is itnot, to the word
"diversified", Mr. Gross?
Illr. GROSS : es.
Mr. KRCIGH: The word "diversified"-yes, this confirms what 1
suspected jnst now, namely that the cornparison is between the southern
sector and the northern sector.
The PRESIDEN TIn otherwords, the word "diversified" has no absolute
meaning, it has a relative meaning. WITNESSES AND EXPERTE IO3
ferent social groups-non-White population groups-is characteristicof
these economies. They are generaiiy and technically descnbed as heter-
ogeneous economies indicating that there is not complete and free move-
ment of production factors either in the ownership of land or the move-
ment of laliour such as you would expect in a typical highly developed
Western type of economy. This is characteristic of these types of econo-
mies. If you would permit me to indicate to you, very briefly, what
exactly is meant by this, 1 would like to refer here to the Economic
Bztlletin for AjricaVolume II, No. 2, of June 1962, that contains an
article written by the stafi of the Economic Commission for Africa
which, as you know, is an agency of the United Nations. Now, they
make this point very clearly, not with particular regard to South West
Africa, but to Africa generally. They Say in this respect, if you will alIow
me to quote verÿ briefly from page g:
"It is cornmonplace among students of African conditions to Say
that it is impossibleto make generalizations. This is unfortunately
no less true for individual countries than for the Continent as a
whole: wide and profound regional variations in characteristics
exist iri almost every respectwithin national boudaries as much as
amongdiflevendcountries ... Most ofthe coiintries under discussion
[and they refer to tropical Africa] have not as yet achiaiedthestate
of a singleintegratedeconomy,oreven nation,the typicalfeature being
that of weakly linked and more or less self-sufficient laeconomic
units. Pockets of development exist alongsidr: areas living in different
degrees of isolation. Consequentlyin the casi: of al1country averages
shown in the study, the uneven distribution of econornic activity
should be kept in mind." (Italics added.)
This 1 think makes the point clear that you cannot use words like
"absorb" in the sense that you would in an economy such as Great
Britain, tht: United States, or in Europe whert: it would make çense.
They do not, in fact, have an integrated economy. They are composed
of different social economic units operating within the domestic bound-
aries of these areas. That is what 1was trying to Say when 1 explained
that the concepts "integrated" and "absorbed" are an unfortunate choice
of terminology and that the restrictions are noinal1respects legal.1am
sure that most restrictions thatoperate in this regard are afsociological
and of a customary nature, embraced here and there by regulations-
administrative or legal. That is the point 1 was trying to make, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Thank you. Now, Dr. Krogh, without in üny way wishing
to impede cirimpair the fullness of your answers, 1would like to invite
you, if1 may, to direct your attention specifically to the extent possible
to the sector we are discussing, and if you wouId please revert to my
question to you, which was intended to ask and on which 1.would
appreciate elaboration from you-is the "freedom of movement", to
which you refer as an economist, an element in cletermining whether or
not you woiild properly refer toan economy as "diversifiedt'-could you
answer that yes or no, Sir?
Mr. KROGH :O, Sir.The concept of diversification is not used tech-
nicalIy witti regard to the movement of production factors at all. It
descnbes the industrial structure of an economy, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Are you finished, Sir?
Mr. KROC~H Y:es, Sir.IO4 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
&Ir. GROSS Perhaps we codd approach the matter from a different
point of view. There are, in the sector to which we are referring, some
thousands of persons classified as non-White, whom the Odendaal
Commission rightly or wronglp described as being absorbed into a
diversified economy. 1 wiil not ask you, unless you wish to, to elaborate
further on the use of terrninology. 1 am referring however, to those
persons in that economic context. Now adverting to those persons in that
context, 1 should like to ask you whether the freedom of movement of
those individuals, either with respect to advancement or with respect to
physical relocation or in any other sense, affect their relationship to the
economy andif so, what is the impact upon thein of such restrictions?
Mr. KROGH1 : takeit, Sir, that thaquestion refers to two aspects. The
first, if get your question correctly, is that you want to know what
extent the movement of these people in the White sector ofthe economy
reflects the extent to which thcy form a so-called integrated part of the
economy?
Mr. G~oss:Yes, Sir, the first part. Please continue, Sir.
&Ir. KROGH1 :would Say that it is a fact that thcy do not move and
own production factors to the same extent as the White members of the
economy owing to custom and administrative regulations and otherwise.
They are not absorbed by the Imite economy but related to it, just as
migrant workers coming, for instance, from the filediterranean countries
to Germany, Holland or Switzerland would first have to apply for work
permits to enter the temtory, and such work perrnits are issued oiicon-
dition that these people do not endanger or displacc a national of the
receiving State. Hence, such workers occupy jobs conditionally-they
are not free in the same sense as the nationals of the receiving State are.
Therefore, 1 would regard this as a distinguishing feature and say
technically speaking that çuch a worker is not absorbed in the economy
as is the case with the members of the national group.
Now many of these restrictions operate custornarily, as1also explained
to you earlier on yesterday, 1 think, with regard to land ownership, for
instance, in the rural White areas. With the insignificant exception
relating to certain probational land scttlement schemes there is no
regulation, as Par as 1 know, that prohibits any membcr of any other
group from owning land in the White rural sector of the economy. Never-
theless, apart from one or two exceptions-1 am not quite sure-for a11
practical purposes there are no members of other groups that own land
there, without there in factbeing any legal restriction on this. This to
me agnin reflects that the members of these other social units or groups
are not, in the technical sençe of the word, absorbed in the economy. If
there are any restrictions that operate with regard to their owning land
in this area it is customarily. It might in fact be quite mutual as far as
the members of these different groups are concerned. That is the first
part of the question, 1think, Sir.
hIr.G~oss: May 1pursue your response to the first part before coming
to the second?
Mr. KROCH :es, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: 1s the imposition, by custom or law or otherwise, of
restrictions upon movernent or advancement, a basis for your distin-
guishing between the relative position of the White and the non-White
in respect of the economy in which they are both serving-is that the
principal basis of your distinction of their relationship to the economy? WITNEÇSES AND EXPERTS 105
&Ir.KROGH Y:es, Sir, as an objective observe1take into consideration
al1 liinitation%ustomary, legal or social-on the movement of pro-
duction factors within the national boundaries of a territory, and with
the aid of that 1say whether this constitutes a heterogeneous or non-
homogeneous economy or not.
Mr. GROSS :ir, 1 am trying to get, for the tieriefof the Court, an
elucidation of the actual effects upon individual perçons in this sector
we are talking about of the difference between the White and the non-
White, aiid the effect of that distinction, howevei. drawn and why drawn,
upon their i:conomic role and relationship to the econornyofthe territory.
With that introductory expla~iation, wouId you then go back, if you will,
to my question, which was intended to ask you whether the different role
and relationship of White and non-White to the mixed economy which
you describe refIects and is caused by the restrictions upon the non-
White group, however or why ever thosc restrictions are imposed; is this
the central point of distinction in defining the rclationship of the imite
and the non-White group towards this economy ?
>Ir.KROGH: This is one of the major criteria 1 would take into con-
sideration. Others would be the extent to which the members of these
particular groups other than the non-\Vhite groups are entrepreneurs
relatively to the rest of their population; theexteiit to which they use
advanced techniques of production ; the extent to which they make use
of advanced forms of organization, and of financing their economic
activity. Therefore it is not only a matter of movement, there are also
0th~ features that1 mentioned yesterday in repljr to other questions that
would suggest to any economist that these people are, economically
speaking, of a different viable nature.
Air.GKOÇS: Of a different what, Sir?
Air.KROGH: Economically viable nature.
AIr.G~oss: In order to clarify that last description, would it be in
any way reflected in the comparative viabiiity, as you describe it, of a
White employee, let us Say, on the railroad as distinguished from a
non-White employee on the railroad, as betweeii those two individuals,
the distinction being one of colour or race-does your answer with
respect to viability or otherwise have any relevance to their relationship
to each other or to the economp as a whole?
3lr.KROGH: Sir,1 am afraid 1 willhave to go into the use of concepts
again, and 1 do not really want to do this, but the concept of vrability
does not usiially refer to the individual, it refersagroup of individuals
or to an economy viewed as a whole. But 1 think it can very clearly be
said that the attitudes, the aptitudes and the willingness to undertake
economic activities would convey to you the exti:ntof economic viability
of a community-that is,these qualities, would reflect their economic
viability. Sir, with al1 respect, 1 think that the impression has been
created 11ei.ethat these people ...
IilrG~oss: Are you referring to non-Whites, Sir, by "these people",
if 1may interject?
hlr.~~ROGH :think that is what you had in rnind.
fiIrGROSS:1 just wanted to understand you, Sir.
3Ir. KROCHT : hat they are being held back like race horses waitingat
the gates-that itonly requires to take tiie gatesaway then they would
run al1the itvay.Now this to my mind, is completely false, Sir-thls 1s?ot
the case. To the estent that restrictions operate against their occupying106 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
certain positions, or their displaying the economic viability they have,
they are to my mind of a marginal nature in the case of South West
Africa. There are, as 1 pointed out yesterday, econornic opportunities
that are in fact exclusively reserved and putaside for these people against
the economically stronger Whites. Al1 these are not in fact exploited or
occupied, or maybe even perceived, by the mernbers of these groups.
This to me reflects that it isnot principaUy a matter of there being
restrictions on these people to either develop, or display their economic
viability. 1 will go further, and Say that the situation içnot static in
South West Africa. It is dynamic in the sense that increasing oppor-
tunities and possibilities to apply their economic aptitudes and qualities
are in fact being created at a rate for them that I think compares very
favourably with anything eisewhere in the underdeveloped ïvorld, and
particularly in tropical Africa. So it is nota matter of restricting theçe
people-tbeçe restrictions operate, 1 must admit,but from an economic
viewpoint they are in fact marginal, they are not of any major economic
significance. An economist must appreciate that in order to make more
productive use of available production factors under sucha set of hetero-
geneous social conditions, restrictive measures may very weii be required
in the interest of social peace. As 1 pointed out yesterday and tried'to
emphasize, social peace has in fact been maintained in order to get on
with the more important job of economic development creating niore
econornic opportunities.
I think, Sir, that the answer to the question is given in the same
Africa, if you would allow me, very briefly,ly taequote from it sgain. Itov
puts thisvery clearly that it is notamatter of legalrestrictions operating
against these people from developing economically. The restrictions are
of a human and cultural nature that are in fact changing in the case of
South West Africa. Very briefly, on page 7 of the same Economic Bttliefirt
for Africa-they put it much better than I can and ïvhile 1 am having
difficultyin explaining this, I would be glad if you would alloiv me to
quote from it-1 have it herc:
"The take-off stage is from the standpoint of the less developed
countries the critical phase in the growth process, and has con-
important to know how the development path from the traditional. It is
society towards take-off can be described and how the factors
favourable to growth should be arranged so as to result in the nlost
efficient allocation of resources during this stage. It is obvious that
itisnot justified to assume that the latter process [this refers to the
most efficient allocation of resources] follows an optimum path
automatically or even that growth itself cornes about on its own
accord [in these types of traditional societies], especially in the
countries at the bottom of the development ladder ... It is well-
known that traditional societies have found it difficult to foster
integrating growth forces from within strong enough to overcome
the resistances mentioned above. [These resistances mentioned
above are not legal resistances.] Normally exogenous impulses are
required. The levels of living attained and the existence of modern
knowledge and technology in developed countries and the possibility
of the latter's transfer to the less developed areas represent suchan
exogenous impulse." WITNESSES AND EXPEIZ1'5 107
This clearly indicateç that the mernbers ofone society are econornically
more viable than those ofthe other. It would br:false to compare and to
create the impression that these differences are due to Iegal restrictions
or tlie w-ithholdingof the members of one group-to, in fact, better their
economic positions.
Mr. G~oss: Sir, I have noticed, as I am sure the Court has, your
repeated references to anaIogies in the form of relationship between the
members of one society or another and your reference, also by analogy,
to the situation of emigration of one nationality to another nationality.
Does thia snalogy,or this form ofanalysis intcnti to describe the relation-
ship behveen the non-Whites and the Whites in the sector to which we
are referring-to which 1 would like your continuing attention? Does it
infer the relationship between the Whites and the non-'llrhites on the
basis of ethnic or colour differenceç or alien or different societies, in the
sense in which you use the term?
hIr. KROGH:Sir, 1think it would be a better description for the simple
reason tha.t most of the members of one group would view the members
of another group as foreigners very often even more than you would find
between, for instance, Great Britain and America, or between the
Netherlarids and, Say, BeIgium. 1 think it ïvouldbe more appropriate to
describe these differences in that way than to regard them aç a homoge-
neous people, with the samc degree of economic viability and qualities
and attitudes.
1 think these examples would give a more instructive impression of
the relationshipbetween them, and it does not only operate between the
members of the non-\hite population groups on the one hand and the
mernbers of the White population groups on the other. This is more
conspicuoiiçbecause the differencesare so much the greater in levels of
economic and general development but it alsooperates, and in fact oper-
ates quite effectively, with regard to members of different non-White
groups, just as it does in most of the other parts of Africa.
hIr. GROSSS :ir, when you referred earlier, if 1iinderstood you correctly,
to two of the factors which added to the consequences or the reasons for
differential treatment between White and non-White pu mentioned, 1
believe, thata major factor to explain the different relationshipofboth
on freedom of movement. I believe that is correct, Sir, is it not as aed,
major factor? 1sthat what you described? Secondly, you referred, if I
understood you correctly, to another factor, which was what you referred
to as the entrepreneutial aspect of one group, by which 1 assume you
rneant the White group. 1sthat correct, Sir?
-. JIr. KROGH:Yes.
bIr. GROSSN : OWi,n respect of the question 1 asked you some time
ago-how that analysis relates in econoinic and social terms to the
extent that the two are necessarily related, aoImite individual, who is,
let us Say,working as a fireman on a railroad, ana non-White individual
who would be dearly qualified to do that same work, hypothetically-
does the factor of White entrepreneurial ski11or tradition in any way .
enter into that situation as between those two persons?
hlr.KROCHN : O,Sir. It does not, in that particular example; no.
&Ir. GROSS: IYould you say that thercfore, to the extent that the
restrictions and reservations, job reservation policies and legal restric-
tions, to nphich 1 shall avert more specifically shortly, in principle-1 108 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
think that is xvhat we are talking about now-econornic principle-1
would like to come back and ask you whether you could clarify as
sharpIy as possible bvhether or not the relationship between the IVhite
and the non-ivhite to the economy, which we shall not call diversified
although the Odendaal Commission does, is fundamentally affected and
conditioncd by the freedoms of movement and advancement which are
imposed on the one group and not on the other?
Mr. KROGH :ir,1 do not think it is fundamentally affected by it.1
think it ismarginally affected by it.
Mr. G~oss :ow, in addition to the entrepreneurial distinction ~vhich
referred,1 think you said, to the group asa whole, but not necessarily to
al1individuals within the \hite group, are there any other factors which
perhaps you have not mentioned, or which have not been understood by
me, which bear upon the question we are discussing in terrns of the
different relationship between ?mite and non-15liite to this "diversified
economy", in Odendaal terms? Are there any other factors mhich you
consider relevant, as an economic expert?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, I think economists also look at the use made of
technical means of production and modern farming methods and forms
of economic organization and of finance. These are criteria which are, in
fact, employed by economists to distinguish one stage of economic
development from another, looking at the type of economy. For instance,
you would look at these factors when studying the econornic history of
the development of Great Uritain and you would say that the use of
technical means of production, of economic organization and of finance
were at a relatively primitive staga century ago compared to what they
are today. These are criteria that they would use to saythat Britain was
at a much Iower level, or stage, of economic development then. These are
some of the criteria that economists look at, refiecting the estent to
which modern techniques of production and modern forrns of economic
organization are being ernployed and used in the economic process.
Mr. GROSS: Let us take as another example, if 1 rnay, Sir, with the
President's permission, the restriction in the mines-the European-
owned mines, and 1betieve that there are no other minesintheTerrilory
-placed by administrative fiat, rather thanby custorn, or in addition
to custorn if you wiçh, with regard to the promotion or advancement of
non-LVhites on the basis of race to-I quote from the Rejoinder, VI, at
page 231:
"The posts which Natives may not be appointed to in such enter-
prises [that is European-owned enterprises] are the fo110n7ing:
Manager; Assistant, sectional, or underground manager; Mine
overseer; Shift boss ; Ganger ; Enginee;Person in charge of boilers,
engines and rnachinery; Surveyor; Winding engine driver; Banks-
man or onsetter."
Now, Sir, wouId you advert tothis illustration of restrictions, which
are legal restrictions? \Vould you be good enough, Sir, to explain to the
Court whether anything you have said or analysed by way of difference
of relationship between \mite and non-White to the economy explains
or clarifiesfrom an economic point of view these restrictions whic1have
just enumerated?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, as 1 tried to point out in rny evidence yeçterday,
these restrictions operate mith regard to mining being carried on in WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I"g
White areas. Sirnilar restrictionswodd, in fact, operate in the non-
White areas where mining operations esist or uvill in due course be
developed. 1also want to point out in this connectioii, Sir, a second point,
nameIy that these posts enurnerated there sound as if they cover a large
nurnber of the employment opportunities open in the mining industry.
This is, in fact, not the case. 1 am sure, although 1 cannot quote the
figures offhand, but 1have the sense of proportic~nto tell you that those
restrictions are relatively insignificant to the number of posts that are,
in fact, occupiecl by rnembers of the non-White groups in tlie mining
industry iri tlie White group. And a ttiird poiiit that 1 would like to
make, and 1 made this point yesterday, too, aiid thnt is, that1, as an
economist, have to take into account and recognize that such restrictions
are a cost-are, in fact, necessary under the particular set of socially
diverse circumstances in a territory such as South \Vest Africa. Seen
from the viewpoint of the economy as a whole, this might and in fact
could lead to a lion-economic application of production factors. Only if
it can be shown that these jobs can in fact be occupied by people who
can do them better than those who are occupyiiig them at the moment,
can it be süid that there is an uneconomic allocation of resources in the
Territory seen as a homogeneous or integrated cconomy, but 1 think it
is false to regard the economy of South \Vest Africa as being composed
of a homogeneous people, and that there is cornplete freedom in the
movement of production factors there as you would espect in a hornoge-
neous economy. 1 can very well see that such restrictions may have to
be applied for the sake of social peace, which is an important considera-
tion in the interest of getting on with the important job of economic
development, Sir.
Mr. GKOSS N:ow spcaking still as an expert, witness ancl econoniist,
would you say to the Court that the restrictions which are opposed by
the mining regulations, to which 1 have referred, have nny economic
justification?
hlr. KKOCH S:ir,1would like to ask you what exactly cloyou mean by
economic justification?
hlr.CROSSA : retliey justifieby any economic factor peculiar to the
mining industry, or peculiar to any of the econoinic aspects of marketing
the products of mines, or any other economic r'actor related to the in-
dustry in which the restrictions apply?
hlr. KROGH Thcy have, of course, absolu tel ^.tliing to do with the
marketing of thc product of the mining industr~., as you ïvill appreciate,
but 1think they are important from the viewpoint of ecoiiomic develop-
ment in so far as they may be required to ensure social peace, which is a
si?requa non for economic development in the Tcrritory.
Mr. GROÇÇ: Sir, are you there making a social vakiie judgment with
respect to tlic attitude of IVhites versits non-IVhites? \Vil1you clarify
your answcr to the Court?
Mr. KRCICH S:r, if you look at the ecoiiomic history of territories or
countries that hnvc a similar popuIation structure, such as, for instance,
South Africa (and this, I think, is relevant, because the policy applied
here is, no doiiht, affectedby experience there), you Tiad a civil war in
~gzzin th(: mining industry, leading to the destruction of property, loss
of lives and so forth, being a reactionof \mite miners ta thc suggestion
or, as the circumstances were, the attempt to einploy members of non-
White groups to do certain jobs that were, in fact, being occupied byII0 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Whites. This led to open rebellion. As a matter of fact, 1 was informed
just yesterday that under 3.iiearly si~nilarsituationa large-scale strike
has started in South Africa upon this very issue, despite the fact that the
Goveriiment have tried to convince the White workers that this change
would be in their ultirnate interest and in the interest of the economy as
a whole. Apparently, however, the members of this group were not
prepared to sacrifice their group interests in the intercst of the national
economy, and this is not abnormal. This rnay happen quite frequently
and, in fact, constitutes a problem that you have to take into considera-
tion. This, of course, also applies the other way. It is not a one-way
relationship. These groups see their economic positions-their welfare
positions, their incorne levcls and so on from the viewpoinof their social
unit or group rather than from the national economy. This com~licates
the matter terribly. It isa difficult problem and difficult to deaI %?th,but
to ignore itis to invite economic disaster. 1 do not have the answers to
al1the ways and means of dealing with it.
hlr. GROSSW : ould you Say that there is any question that the restric-
any economic advancement, development ofon thskillsand, of course, greater
livelihood? 1s there any room for doubt upon the impact on these indi-
viduals ulho are subject to the regulations?
Mr. KROGHY : es, Sir1 think there would be an effect on them but 1
think this effectwould be marginal.
Iilr. GROSS:If a non-White individual working in a mine has
the capacity or the potential to fiII one of the Iisted higher posts
in the mining industry, ignoring him as an individual, can there be any
question aboutthe impact upon his economic welfare? 1sthat marginal,
Sir?
hIr. KROGHI:t is marginal viewed from the economy as a whole or
from the group from which that member derives. It may affect his
position at this stage of the development of economic opportunities in
the Territory, but it is definitely marginal. 1 think it would be unwise,
Sir, of any responsible authority under such a set of conditions to try
and solve the problems of individuals and thereby create much larger
social problems. You must view this thing in itç total social situation. 1
must admit however, that, for that particular individual, it may affect
his living standard at that stage of developrnent of the Territory where
not sufficient conditions and mining opportunities exist in other areas.
1 can appreciate that point and 1 admit that that is so. Yes, Sir. But 1
think that it is marginal from the viewpoint of the economicadvancement
of that particular group and 1think it is even leçsimportant viewed from
the national economy as a whole. 1think it is marginal. Just to concen-
trate on and solve the problem of a particular iridividual, would, to my
mind, from a responsible authority, be shortsighted, narrow-minded and,
in fact, irresponsible, Sir.
Mt. GROSSD : r. Krogh, in respect of the questions and your response
thereto concerning the regulations on the mines, works and minerals
(Ordinance, as it is called), 1should like to refer to your comment-if I
understood you correctly, Sir, according to my notes but correct me if 1
am ~vrong-that the Natives, so-called, occupy many posts inthe rnining
industry. Did I understand you substantially to Say something like that,
Sir?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir, 1 said "employment opportunities". They are, \\'ITNESSES AND EXPERTS III
in fact, themajority, as farasthe labour force is concerned in the rnining
industr in the White sector of the economy.
Yr. (?ROSS: If you did usetheword "posts", were )>ouor were you not
referring to managerial or supervisory positions in the mines?
Mr. KROCH:NO,Sir, 1 was not refcrring to those positions in tmines
in the IVhite areas.
Mr. GROS: That was just to clear up any possible misunderstanding,
on rny part. NOW,Sir, with respect to the distribution of minera1 re-
sources in the Territory, are there any mines or mineral deposits in
operation, being exploited, inthe northern areas of the Temtorÿ?
Mr. KROGHA : s far as know, there is,1 think, asalt mine operating
iii the northern part of the Territory. Yes,1think so, Sir.
3Lr.GROS: Are there any other mines, metal or other mineral deposits,
which exist and are being exploited in the northern territory?
The PREÇIDEXT :hey might exist without being known, Mr. Gross:
any other mineral activities?
Mr.GROÇS:Thank you, Mr. Presidcnt.My stressiçon the words "being
exploited", which of course presumes their existence; yes, Sir.
hfr.KROGH:Not as frtr as1 know, Sir. But the mineral resources of
the Territory are, of course, those of whicli knowledge exists today. That
is clearljunderstood.
hIr.GROSSM : yquestion is intended to be dirttcted toward the current
condition, the current situation, and that which has prevailed in the
last years. Your answer içdirected toward that time span, is it,Sir?
Mr. KROGHY : esSir.
&Ir.GRO~S {Vould you Say, then, thatitwould follotv necessarily and
logically tlrat tlie employment opportunities for mine workers, outside
the salt mines, to which you refer, are non-existent in the narthern
territoryat the present time?
Mr. KROGH : t the present tirne, yes, Sir, but this does not, of course,
exclude the discovery of new minera1 resourccs or of known mineral
resources tieing exploited, becoming cconomicaIly fensibIe to esploit in
due course. We have many examples of this.Take Libya, for instance.
For years it was regarded as a textbook example on the subject of
economic development, of a territory that should be left aloneand not
developed because it had no natural resources. \ire know from fact,
however, that during the last few years large and very valuable oil re-
sources have been discovered and are now being dcveloped in Libya.
This çort of thing happens al1tlie tirneItdoes not mean that mining is
excluded froni future development. It is only tht: position at thiç stage of
development.
Mc. G~oss: At thisstage of econornic developnient there are no minera1
or other deposits being exploited in northern territories other thaii salt
mines; that is your testimony, is it not, Sir?
Mr. KROGH T:hat is correct, Sir.
Mr. GROSSA :s an economiçt and an expert 1 address this question to
you: ifthe fortunate development which takes place, which al1 u70uld
hopefor, tliat minera1 deposits are diçcovered forexploitation in northern
areas, would there be, on the basis of your econornic analusisof the
population in the Territory, perçons,non-\'Vhites,who would be readily
available for managerial and supervisory posts in suchenterprises?
Mr. KROGH :ir, they would not be readily available in thesensethat
they could be employed immediately. They coiild, hoivever, be trainedII2 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
in a relatively short period of time to occupy many of these posts. As a
matter of fact, now I corne to think of it, there is an important tin mine,
for instance, in the new and large proposed Damara land, that is in
operation and in fact is being exploited, and 1 take it that this would
give an opportunity to train these people, if thesc minera1 resources
should become economically feasible to developin the northern territories.
Then 1 take it that tliere would be people qualified and experienced to
undertake these developments, and to the extent that they are not
available they will in fact,Iam sure, be assisted and guided by White
managers and skilled people to develop these mines and be trained to
occupy these posts.
&Ir.GROSS: The White persons to whom you have referred would,
under those circurnstances, be residing and working in the northern
territories, would they, Sir?
Mr. KROGHO : n atemporary basis with the vt:ry clear understanding
that they could iiot claim job security. They would be there on a tem-
porary basis until and when these posts could in fact be taken ovcirby
members of the group in whose area the mine was being operated.
Mr. G~oss: They would be contributing to the development of the
economy, 1take it. That would be the case, would it not, Sir?
MI. KROGII :es, Sir, otherwiçe there would be no development.
fiIr. CROSS:And whik they were making that contribution to the
economic development, would they be subject to restrictions upon their
promotion or the iobs which thev would be entitled to hold in the
Territory ?
The PRESIDENT :hat is something in the future, is it not? Would thev
be in the future subject to restrictiok?
Dlr.CROSS: Under the conditions envisaged by this witness as an
expert, Sir, in the development of the mines we are projecting, if 1 may
pursue that.
Mr. KROGH1 :think it would be made very cIear to them, as a condi-
tion, that they could not have any basis for a claim, or if there was a
claim forjob security, or fortheadvancernent of empioyrnent prospects
in this mine, this claim would not receive priority compared with that
of the members of the local group-that is the latter would, in fact,
receive preference in this respect. 1 calso very well imagine that they
would be protected against any such claims emanating from the members
of the IVhite group.
Mr. G~oss: 1think, Mr. President, that I am leading the witneçs into
a hypothetical future contingency and 1 will not pursue that line any
more, Sir.
However, 1 should like now toturn to another form of imposed limita-
tion upon economic advancement or position. 1 refer to the pleadings,
Reply, IV, at page 419, from which it appears (and this, 1 believe, is
undisputed in the record) thatthe Apprenticeship Ordinance of 1938 and
Government Notices suppIementing it provide that only European minors
may execute contracts of apprenticeship in various industriesand one
of them is the furniture industry. Are you familiar, Sir, with that Ap-
prenticeship Ordinance or the regulations pertaining to that matter?.
Mr. KROGH: Sir,I do not know the exact content or Iegal provisions
of these regulations-no, 1do not. 1am, however, aware of the fact that
thisOrdinance, as you cal1it (1take itthat is the technical term for it),
was introduced just before World War II (1am not quite sure about the WITNESSES AKD EXPERTS '13
date but it was shortly before World \Var II),but that it u7asnot, in
fact, applied until quite late in the 1950s. That would be some20 years
later. Then 1 am also aware that, in order to have it applied, certain
trades have to be proclaimed, and I think you :ire correct in saying that
one of the few trades that have been proclaimed in this connection is the
furniture tiusiness. Astried to explain to you yesterday in my testimony,
a furniture factory is, in fact, operating in Ovamboland where these
people are being trained as skilled perçons to operate the factory in this
particular example you have mentioned.
This illiistrates to me, again, then, how thii proclamationmay very
well have prohibited the training of skilIed furniture operators after
1957-195 (18think it was 1gj7-1958 that it was brought into operation
-it is only quite recently-afew years ago). Ncvertheless, they are now
being employed, protected and trained in a furniture factory operating
in the northern territories, which clearly illustrates that this proclamation
does not apply to employment conditions in the northern territories,Sir.
>Ir.G~oss: \Ve are referring, Sir, to the southern sector,and the
Apprenticeship Ordinance of 1938 and supplementary regulations, or
Notices, to which 1 referred, do not, as far a1 am aware, apply to the
northern territories.
Now, within the southern sector, the same Ordinances and the Ordi-
nance and Notices provide that only European minors may execute
contracts of appreticeship in the following industries1have rncntioned
furniture. In addition, building, clothing, carriage-buildelectrical and
mechanical engineering, baking, butchery, leather, mining, motor
industry, printing and painting and decorating-would you comment,
Sir, with respect, as an economic expert, or witness, or both, to the
economic reasori or justification for such a restriction in the economic
sector ofthe southern area?
Nr. MULLER :he conditions of apprenticeship, referred to by my
learncd friend, have not been appliedinal1the trades rnentionecl byliim.
1 would, in that respect, refer to the Rejoinder,VI,at page 281,wherc
the following is stated:
"-4s regards the industries mentioned by the Applicants, it should
be observed that conditions of apprenticeship havenot, as yet, been
prescribed in respect of certain designated trades, viz., the boot-
makitig, clothing, carnage-building, food (baking and butchery)
and leather trades, which means that the Ordinance is not yet in
effective operation in the case ofese tratles."
Mr. GROSS:1 thank the learned counsel for the clarification, which1
was awarc: of, and was going to refer to. 1 am now referring to the
Ordinance of 1938 and Notices which 1 have read, the existence, Mr.
President, of which is not denied in the pleadings.
The PRESIDEST H:as the Ordinance been applied?
Xr. GROSS :heOdinance has not been applied, bas not been made
effective,as yet, according to the Respondent's pleading, to which
counsel has referred in certain designated...
The PRI:SIDENT Itsimply means that this poiver is taken but that this
potver has not been exercised.
3Ir. CROSS T:hat is right, Sir, a1dwas, with respect, coming to that
point, Sir, but1 am leading to it by reference to the statutory scheme
-the policy implicit in it as a scheme-and 1 was coming to the im-
plernentation of it.II4 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
With respect, Sir, to the existence of the Ordinance and the policy
which the adoption ofthe Ordinance implies, would you comment, as an
expert, with respect to economic rationale or justification for such a
policy of restriction in principle?
Mr. KROGH S:ir,1would Say that if you ignore completeIy the social
structure of the particular territory-whick operates not only between
the White and non-White population groups, but also with regardto the
different non-White population groups-1 think you must, asan econo-
mist, say that these regulations wouId be designed to limit the nurnber
of skilled peopIe in the territory, viewed as a homogeneous whole, to
qualify for particular trndes.But such restrictions, of course, as we al1
very well know, operatc even in professions and in other skills and trade
avenues in a highly industrialized economy-the number is obviously
restricted, economically speaking, to protect those that are already in
that trade, for if these nurnbers were increased without control, this
would increase the çupply of these qualified people, thereby endangering
the Living standards and ernployment opportunities of those esisting
members in the particular trade.
Yes, I think such restrictions, in the casof South West Africa, and
the econornic effects thereof that it may have to the detriment of the
development of the Territory, are, in fact, compensated for, and, in fact,
circumvented by a policy which creates opportunitiesfor training of the
skilled people in a different organization.
As a matter of fact, iI am allowed to put it to you that we may look
at the Repablic of South Africa as an example of things to corne, then it
is very clear to me that no restrictionswould be piaced on the training
of these people. As we al1know, it is in fact a positive and concrete
development policy in South Africa to train these people, but not as
minor apprentices working alongsidc White workers, as I would imagine
this would be a provision reflectingagain, or being an economic cost due
to the complex and delicate social situation in such a particuiar set of
circumstances.
The PRESIDENT :octor, could 1interrupt for a moment?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
The PRESIDENT Y:ou spoke about "in other countriesM-there are a
number of countries throughout the world in which the Court would
know, in general, limitations have been placed upon the number of
apprentices that can be taken into a trade, and in those countries is it not
quite clear that it iç for the purpose of protecting the working rightsof
those already in the trade?
Mr. XROGH: That is corre'ctSir.
The PRESIDENT A:nd is there any reason to suppose that in the case
of this ordinance its purpose was precisely the same?
Mr. KROGH:This would be the motive behind it,Sir.
Mr. GROSS: Sir, could you refer the Court to any such procedures or
regulations which are based upon the excIusion of one group or another
on the ground of colour or race?
'Mr. KROGH Sir,1 cannot think of one off-hand at the moment, but
1 can understand that it so happens that most of the people under these
particular circumstances who might be excluded in the ?$'hitesector from
acquiring skills may be people ofa different colour. Yes,Ican very much
see this, but this rnakes my point, and that is that these peopledistinguish
themselves on the ground of colour. Therefore, apart from the point, WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 115
Mt. Presitlent, that was made quite clear just now with regard to restric-
tions existing even in homogeneous societies, that is where there are no
differences in colour, these restrictions are not always interpreted as
restrictio~is for the benefit of those alreadyirlthe trade but are often
viewed as racial restrictions which may in fact incite socialtrife, and in
order to circumvent these, separate opportunities are created, not to
prevent these people from acquiring these skills but in fact to avoid
social friction. In this particular case the race factor operates betrveen the
races to the advantage of each group and al1concerned in this particular
Territory, Sir.
Mr. GROSS : hen you Say, Sir, that ckrtain opportunities are created
-the phrase you use-would you be, for the tienefit of the Court, more
specific as to where such opportunities are created, and what sort of
opportunities they are, in the terms which you. have used?
&Ir.KROGH :ir,1 have explained to you previously that opportunities
for employment are being created-at a rate thatI think is impressive-
for people that might aspire to occupy positions that are at the moment
being occiipied by members of another group-in the urban areas which
they occupy in the White area, in the fieId of public administration and
of private enterprise and agriculture in the so-called non-White areas,
where there are of course not as many opportunities at the moment as
there are in the economically much more viable White economy. And, if
we look at the recommendations of the Odendaal Commission, which 1
take it you are acquainted with, then you wiIl see that there are prospects
of even more being created-by the word "create" 1 mean assist with
al1 the means possible, even subsidizing these opportunities for a long
period of time, which can now in fact be afforded by having first devel-
oped a modern economy. This could not, forinstance, have been afforded
or done, let us Say 30 or 40 yearsago, because at that stage you were çtill
in the process of establishing a modem economic growth-point in the
Territory. I thiiik that at the moment the current situation is that these
opportunities are in fact being created at a rate that 1,as an economist,
would often Say is outright subsidization, that they would not be com-
pIetely justified under purely economic conditions if you hada completely
homogeneous population, but by that 1 would be denying the social
problem in this connection. Furthermore 1 feel that there are very good
prospects that more and more of these opportunities wilI in fact become
available. I must point out to you, Sir, that this is an economic cost if it
reflects as an uneconomic rneasure viewed from an approach that would
deny these differences in these problems: this is an economic cost that
has to be paid by a society composed of different groups that are in fact
heterogeneous. Sir, this isan economic disadvantage which 1 tried ta
point out in my evidence yesterday-the social atmosphere in which
economic development has to be effected. Plans and policies have to be
devised tliat would seem quite peculiar and strange to an economist
having in mind a society that is completely homogeneous with respect
to the welfare of the population as a whole. This is an economic cost, just
as you suffer under other disadvantages sucli as the lack of natural
resources, or the lack of transport facilities, canals, lack of rainfall or
things likt: that. This is an economic disadvantage that a territory such
as South West Africa has compared with other countries, as if it has not
got enough problems to face with regard to its economic development.
Thisparticular one isalso present in the Territoryof SouthWest Africa,Sir.116 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. GROSS : OW,Sir, may 1corne back to rny question, as related to
the southern sector of the economy of the Territory? I referred to the
section in the Odendaal Commission report which is headed "Economy of
South \I1est Africa" and begins at page315 of the report.1 should like,
ifthe Preçident permitç, to read just two sentences. In paragrap1284:
"The econoiny of South West Africa rnay be described as a dual
economy, consisting of a predominantly inodern money or eschange
sector and a traditional subsistence sector. To a great extent, how-
ever, the modern exchange economy has already strongly influenced
the subsistence economy of alarge part of tlie population."
Do you ûgree or disagree with that characterization of the economy of
South \Vest Africa, Sir?
Mr. KKOCH Y:es,Sir, 1 think 1 could agree with that, although am
not quite happy about the termi~iology used. But 1do not think that
would makc any significant difference to the impression that is being
created there. Sir, wiahfew qualifications, 1tried to esplain yesterday
with regard to the use of the terms such as "subsistence"-this couId
verIr well assume a comrncrcialized form-it does not rnean that ifSOU
commercialize or tracle in certain products you are infact a modern
economy. This isgenerally being appreciatedin the literature onecono-
mic development , that there is a three-stage distinction.
The PRESIDEXT Y OUmade these points yesterday.
Mr. KROCH: Yes, 1 think that was made clear yesterday,Sir.
XIr.GROSS:DO YOU agree or disagree specifically with the description
of the "predominantly modem money oreschange sectort'-do you find
difficulty with that language of description?
Nr. KROCH ?JO,with those qualifications tha1 have stated.
Nr. GROSÇ: We are now discussing in terrns ofmy proposed question
the "modern money or exchange sector", in the terrns of the Odendaal
Commission report which 1 take it, does it not, Sir, refers to that portion
of the Territory which has been described as the soiithern sector outsjde
the lieserves-is that correct?
Blr. ICROC:HSir, yes, if you have to delineate this on a regional basiç,
1think the iF1hiteeconomy would for al1 practical purposes cover thnt
area iii the southern sector towhich the White members ofthe group
are in fact restricted in the occupation oland or the holding ofjobs-
yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: My question waç whether the modern exchange sector is
or is not coterminous with the southern sector or Police Zone outside
the Reserves-is the answer yes or no?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, that isso.
hlr.G~oss: That is what 1 wanted to clarify. 1itthen, in that areain
which the population as reflected in the tables of the Odendaal report
at pages 39 and 41,with which we started our discussion this morning,
is as follows: non-imitesin urban areas,Natives, 49,000 ;on-Whites in
rural areas, 64,000; those are the figures of non-Iiliites in the area of the
southern sector outside the Reserves which is the modern exchange
sector-is that correct, Sir, according to your understanding?Ibelieve
we have already been over this;1 just wanted to clariîy it at this point.
nlr.KROGH: Yes, Sir.
&Ir.GROSS:In respect of restrictions on job opportunities, is it or is
it not correct to say that the heaviest impacupon the non-White falls \VITNESSES AND EXPERTS II7
precisely in this sector to which we are referririg-isthis not where the
restrictions apply, when they do apply ?
Mr. KROGHS :ir,YOU art referring to rg percent. of the total Native
populatioii in the Territory-that is the first point.
Mr. GROSS:1 am not referring to a percentage, 1 am referring to a
group of indivjduals, if that is relevant to youanswer.
Rlr.I<ROGH Y:es,1 am trying first of al1to give you a sense of propor-
tion of thi: importance of this particular concentratioof non-ivhites in
the urban areas, Sir. Secondly, there is only one urban area in which
there is animportant mine, and this is a copper minin Tsumeb. In other
words, the inining posts referred to just now as lalling under legal restric-
tions p1aci:d on the advancemeiit of members of the non-White group in
the Whitesector do not in fact operate jthecase of thc majority of these
people to whom we have bcen referring here. There are no mines in
other urban areas, where these peopIe reside, apart from this particular
one in Ts~imeb.
The other legal restrictions referSir, to the supply of public tranç-
portation services. These are,of course, spread over the Territory, but1
think that tlie number of peopIe employed in the South African Railways
and Harbours Administration, which is a public organization supplping
public utilitieç,such as transport, harbour, air and motor transport
services iri the Territor(1am not quite sure about the percentage em-
ployed there), is sornewhere less thanIr per cent. of the nurnber of non-
liSiites en~ployed in the southern modern economql, Sir. I do not know
of other legal restrictions, b1am very well aware, as1 have said before,
that there may be, and in fact are, customary and social restrictions
voiuntarily, as it were, operating wjthout being einbraced by legal
regulations orrestrictions inthissector.
Bfr. G~oss: Was the ansiver to my question Jres or no, Sir? Do the
restrictions that are imposed bcar principally iipon the non-Whites who
live and work in the modern excllange sector?
Mr. KROGH Y:es,Sir.
Mr. GROSS:That was my question, Sir. Now with respect to the
Apprenticeship Ordiriance of 1938 and the Government notices suyple-
menting it, the industries in which it has been made effective iticludc
the following: electricniand mechanical engineering. CouId you advise
the Court what job opportunities exist for mechanical and engineering
skills in the northern areas at the present time, any?
gr. KROGH N:ot in the electrical field of engineering, but,as you vers
well know, one of the greatest development projects envisaged (1 want
to make this point because yoii must not thirik of this being a static
situation, or a permanently constant situation) is the development of
hydro-electricity in the northern part of the Tt:rritory, and it would be
express policy to train electricians for this particulaarea in order to
operate, to inaintain and to manage these very large hydro-electric
schernes.The output would be marketed in the White nreabecause there
is no demand for clectricity in Ovambolnnd at the present stage of its
development. Neverthelesç, the fact that it wouId supply its output to
the modern White economy has nothing to do with the fact thnt such
jobs would be given to, or reserved for, as it were, niembers of a non-
White group. The natural resource potential that is about to be tapped
and deveIoped falls within a northern Native Territory, and preference
would be given tothe training of non-Imites in tkis particular areaSir.1x8 SOUTH ITEST AFRICA
Mr. GROÇS: Dr. Krogh, if my questions are not clear to you, 1 would
appreciate itif you would indicate that. I would be glad to clanly them.
1 was refemng, 1 thought, to the present available job opportunities in
the northern areas for electrical and mechanical engineers. Was your
answer that such opportunities now exist ,or not?
Rir. KROGHT :hey do not exist at the moment, Sir.
. Mr. G~oss: We have alresdy covered the mining restrictions, both
with respect to the job reservation and with respect to the Apprenticeship
Ordinance. You have testified, have you not, Sir, just to complete the
record at this point, that no mines other than a salt mine and a tin mine
exist outside the exchange sector-that is correct, Sir?
Mr. KROGHO : utside the modern sector, yes.
Mr. G~oss: And with respect to those mines, 1 would have liked to
have asked you before if you know what percentage of the minera1
production of the Territory as a whole is reflected in the output of those
mines?
hlr. G~oss: Would you please give the Court the approximation?
JIr. KROGH:1 think the output would be definitely less than IO per
cent. of the total. The two mines-the diamond mines and the copper
mines-are, 1think, responsible for round about goper cent.of the total
value, but as you will appreciate, of course, this does not mean that they
are great employers-in fact, they are very poor employers of labour.
Minesare poor ernployers oflabour, reIatively to, forinstance, the farming
industry or the service industries. It is not a matter of output value
because diamonds, for instance, is a srna11commodity with a great
value-the employment opportunities are not reflected in the value of
the product or of the total output of the mine.
Mr. GROSÇ:Sir, would it be relevant, from your point of view, relatively
speaking, that the Apprenticeship Ordinance and the Government
Notices had seen fit to prohibit non-Europeans from entering into such
contracts in the mining industry?
hIr. KROGHI:n those particular posts in mining that you have men-
tioned in the White sector of the economy, yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: From an economist's point ofview, or from any point of
view, ~vouldthere be any logical reason tohave arestriction by law unless
there was an opportunity correlative to the restriction?
JIr. KROGH:Sir, as 1 said before, any economist frowns upon restric-
tions on the movernent of labour because this inmediately makes him
suspicious about the use of aviilable productive resources, and such
restrictions are, of course, a distinguishine characteristic of the under-
developed world compared with conditions inthe economically developed
world. That is why economists who corne and study conditions in the
underdeveloped countries usuaIly frown upon such restrictions. Many
in this respect often far more effective.As 1ghave already said that inare
devising an effective policy of economic development, that is making
greater and more productive use of available resources, in the particular
set of circurnstances in South West Africa, 1 think you can only ignore
the social setting at the expense of your aim. It is therefore logical, Sir,
as well as responsible to take into consideration, the peculiar social
setting and atmosphere in which you have to devise your particular
policy of economic development. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS xlg
Mr. GROSS: And again, I would ask you, Sir, in your testimony just
given, does that reflect a social value judgment, on the basis of which
your economic analysis proceeds?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir. It is very important for an economist not to
ignore the social setting in which he recommends or, in fact, judges a
particular cconomic policy. This is definitely so, Sir. You cannot do this
irrespective of the type of çociety or econornic problems you have to
face in a particular set of circumstances.
The PRISSIDENT 1:there not a distinction between a case where, for
example, as a niatter of custom, certain unions esclude certain people
from joining their union, and where this is dcine by legislation of the
State?
Mr. KRCIGH Y:es,Sir.
The PRESIDENTT : Owhat extent isyour analogy of the custom relevant
to the question which is put to you?
Mr. KR~GH:1 would say that the limitations that there exist on em-
ployrnent, that is to occupy positions in the area of a particular group
would be affected, not because there are legalor Government restrictions
on their eritry, but that even if these people were equally qualified and
skilled they would be jobless people because these social and customary
factors would leave them unemployed. You would, in fact, have an
educated or skilled unemployed labour force.
The PRESIDENT:1 see. What is the purpose then of a government
ordinance .ithe result wouId be the same whether there was or was not a
government ordinance?
Mr. KROGH: The purpose in this particular setting would be to indicate
very clearly to the people who have aspirations for these particular jobs
that are being created in a particular areby a particular economy, not
to aspire for these particuIar jobs, because this would frustrate them. In
fact, it would be like a signpost indicating before you enter the street
that this is a cul-de-sac, instead of arriving at the end andn discover-
ing that you have not been warned or clearly indicated that there are
other ways of arriving at your particulardestination.
Blr.GROSS:WouId your response to the honourable President's ques-
tion, so far as you know or care to testify, correspond to the following
quotation of a statement by Prime Minister Verwoerd, which is quoted
in the Respondent's Rejoinder, VI, at pages 4r-42:
"The Bantu must be guided to serve his own communitp in al1
respects. There is no place for hirn in the European community above
the Ievel of certain forms of labour. Witliin his own community
however al1doors are open. For that reason it isof no avail for him
to receivea training which has as itaim absorption in the European
community while he cannot and will not bt: absorbed there. Up till
now he has been subjected to a school çystem which drew him away
from his own community and practically misled him by showing
hirn the green pastures ofthe European but still did not allow hirn
to graze there."
That is frotn theParliamentary Debates ofthe Union House of Assernbly,
Volume 83, Column 3577, 1953.
Do you, as an expert or as a witness, or botl~, care to comment with
respect to this staternentas being relevaritto your statement on intent
and social implications?120 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Alr.KROGH :ir, those are the words of a Prime Minister who is partly,
no doubt primarily, a politician.1 would not use the same language but
1 can see that he is getting at the same thing. He is indicating a way for
solving this difficult problem asell as thepath along which this is to be
achieved, Sir.
Mr. GROSÇ: NOW,would it follow,Sir, that so faras the 49,000non-
Llihites, or Natives as they are classified, who live and work in the
modern sector, are concerned, that the policy and economic theory you
envisage would permanently exclude them from equal participation in
the economy in which they live and work?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, to the extent that they have a choice, yes. I would
Say that to the extent that they prefer to be there for economic reasons
and the mernbers of the White group in this area who prefer them to be
there, 1 think to that extent they will, in fact, be there, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Are you finished, Sir?
Mr. KROCH : es, Sir.
Xr. G~oss: Would you say as an economist or as a witness or both
that a non-White who, let us Say, haç been born and lives and works in
the economic sector in the urban area has a practical option as to whether
to stay ~vhere he is or go to, let us Say, Ovaniboland or some other
northern territoryto finish out his life-does he havapractical economic
option?
Mr. KROGH : ell, Sir, not at the same leveofliving-that isafter al1
why he is there and iç working there because itisinhis economic interest
to be there and it is in the economic interest of the White ernployers to
have him there. It is in the economic interest of both these parties
participating inan exchange relationship, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: I am talking now, Sir, about the one party for the moment,
if f may, thenon-White. He is there on my hypothesis because he isborn
there and he remains there, 1 take it from what you have testified, be-
cause this represents an economic opportunity to him-that is a correct
version of your testimony, is it not, Sir?
Mr. KROGHY : es.
Mr. GROSÇ: Now then, is the Court to understand that when you
referred to his preference that you are çpeaking in terms of economic
reality? Does he have a preference, a free choice to stay where he is under
restriction or to move to a territory hehas never seen and knows very
littleabout? Strike out the last partofthe qualification,ifyou will.
Mr. KROGH :es please, because that is not of an economic nature.
Nt- . ~oss:Yes, Sir. I withdraw it withthe President's permission.
Mr. KROGH:Well, the fact that econornic opportunities exist here in
this particularmodern sector, that would not otherwise have existed, I
am sure, ifthe White community had not been there, the economically
viable modern economy and White population section had not been there,
he would have had no choice whatsoever, not even the one that he is,
in fact, enjoying and occupying at the moment, Sir. Definitely not to
theextent that a great number of these people areinfact being employed
in the sectar, Sir.
Mr. GROSSI :am not sure that 1 understand the import of your answer
but rather than seeming to heckle you about it, perhaps 1 can approach
it for clarification a differway.
In the Odendaal Commission report to which I have already referred
the specific passage-itis on page 31, paragraph 113,I have read it-is WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 121
a sentence, but because of the connection witll the preceding sentence,
Ihave to read both again 1 am afraid, if the President permits:
"With the arriva1 of the Whites, resulting in increased personal
safety and greater development, the Damara were able to evolve a
totally new way of life. Large numbers were absorbed in the economy
of the southern part of the country and displayed exceptional
aptitude as employees."
Now, ignoring if you will, Sir,the controversial implications of the
phrase "absorbed in the economy", with which you are unhappy, 1 take
it, what is the economic significanceor implication in your expert opinion
of the reference to "exceptional aptitude as emp1oyees"-is that an
economic concept that a person may have a special aptitude as an
employee but not as a supervisor or would you care to comment on it in
an? oiher term?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir. 1 have little doubt that the words "displayed
exceptional aptitude as employees" there refi:r to a cornparison &th
regard to the members of the other non-White population groups that are
also described on the other pages. The reaçon why Ithink this to be so
is that the Damaras never owned land traditionally or historically in
South West Africa, at least not before the IQhitc man arrived there. They
were ençlaved and worked for the Herero arid the Nama and being
people that could adjust themselves economicaIly easier, they proved to
be and were preferred by White employees above . . .
Mr. G~oss: I think you mean White "employerç", do pou?
Mr. KROGH: I am terribly sorry ...White einployers to, for instance,
Herero eniployees, who must have shown or displayed less exceptional
aptitude in this regard. 1 think that this comparison is with regard to
the members of the other non-White population groups who also offer
their labour and occupy employment opportunities in the modern White
sectors,Sir.
The PRESIDENT: 1s that a comparison for example between the
Damaras and the Hereros?
Mr. KR~GH: Yes, Sir.1 think that refers spei:ifically to that.
Mr. GROSÇ: 1sit your testimony, Sir, that the Hereros as a group are
in any sense inferior as employees or with Iess aptitude than the Damaras
as a grouii-is that the sense or purport of your testimony?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, if you look at the figures of urbanization of the
different groups, you will find that the Hcrero are much less urbanized
than the Ilamara. As a matter of fact, the Damna in the southern sector
is the Native group that is the most urbanizcd because they occupy these
em loyee positions, whereas the Herero have c:xceptional qualities in a
digrent economic sense, that iç in the sense to which they have com-
mercialized and, in fact, are farming on Reserveç and selling livestock.
They are the more advanced in the southern sector with regard to cattle
raising and selling these products in organizr:d markets, whereas the
Darnara again are more specialized, in view of their traditional and
historical circumstances sketched just now, in being urbanized, in
offering their employment in urban areas. Zn other words, this can really
be seen as two different exceptional aptitudes being displayed in their
economic performance by two different non-White groups in the southern
sector,Sir. It isnot a matter of inferiority or superiority at all.
Mr. GROSS1 :wouId not think of suggesting that, Sir. 1 am referring,122 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
however, now to the urban areas of the southern sector and I refer to
southern sector, there are listed 18,499sDamaras and 9,192n arHereros.he
Now, you see those figures, Sir, in the report-youaccept those figures?
Mr. KROGH :Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSSN : OW,with respect to these two, since you have mentioned
the Damaras and the Hereros in thiç relative context, what would be
your explanation as an economist, student of the South West African
economy in the modern sector and others-for the difference between
the aptitude, if any, of the Hereros in theurban section and the Damaras
in the same area?
The PRESIDENT A:s employees or generally?
Mr. GROSS:As employees. Thank you, hlr. President. Let us refer
now, as 1 intended to, to the aptitude as employees to which reference is
made in paragraph 113, on page 31 of the Odendaalreport.
Mr. KROGHS :ir, it is general knowledgein the case of South West
-4frica that the Herero are a very proud people. Their historical back-
ground and custom would not make them particularly prefer or like to
be einployed by or work for White employers. This iç generally known,
and it is not the result of discrirninating among the different ernployees.
They would rnuch prefer to be independent farmers-large livestock
farmers.
Mr. GROSSI:n the urban areas, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:NO. 1 am so sorry. 1 was explaining what they would
prefer to do rather than bc employees in the urban area. Hence, these
figures that you have here reflect their particular wish or preferences not
to be there, Sir. Proportionally speaking (that is ta theirown total),
they aremuch lessinclined asemployees than isthe casewith the Damara.
At the sarne tirne the figures also show and the passage you quoted just
now substantiates that employers prefer Damara to Herero workers be-
cause the former are better workers. They show exceptional aptitude in
this regard, they probably show less absenteeism, are probably more
CO-operative in getting down to and doing the job and probably much
more pleasant to work with generally-al1 factors that the employer no
doubttakesinto consideration in saying that he prefersa Damara worker
as employee compared for instance, to an Herero, Sir.
&Ir.GROSS:Would therefore you Say that this characterization of
displaying exceptional aptitudism as employees does not, as you would
analyse the report as an expert, refer in ivhole or in part to aptitude in
the çense of skill,performance and understanding of the job to bedone?
Mr. KROGHY :es, 1 think they would be better suited to do particuIar
wage-earning jobs, and being suited means not only in respect of skill,
but includes your whole approach to work, your regularity of announcing
yourself for work and gettingthe job done in a shorter period. it is more
than just a matter of skill, and ato that you must remember that the
Damara was traditionally the one that had acquired skill with regard to
farming methods and so forth, when they were empioyed by the Herero
in the history preceding 1920,Sir. 50, they have particular aptitudesand
they like to work-they show al1these qualities apart from skill, that one
would associate with a better worker, Sir.
Mr. GROSS\:Vould YOU agree, Sir, that the catalogue of qualities and
virtues which you have just enumerated ~vould beamong those qualities
which ~vouldbe looked to, normally speaking, in an economic structure WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 123
to mark people for promotion to supervisory positions-would the
qualities tfiat you have mentioned be relevant to such a normal promo-
tion elemerit ?
Mr. KROG HYes, Sir. It is not onaymatter of skill when you prornote
people. It isa matter of whether he is devoted to his work; his whole
attitude to hiswork; whether he can assume responsibility; arhether he
can do the work better or to the greater satisfaction of the employand
whether, irlfact, the employer finds him CO-operative.
There aremany other factors, apart from having a certificate or having
attained acertain qualification, that are taken into account in promoting
people or preferringcertain people as employees before other people.
Mr. G~oss:Are there in fact, as far as you are iiware, Sir, any instances
in which a Damara of aptitude, as an employee, exercises a position as
foreman in a factory or industrial enterprise in the modern economy?
&Ir.KROGKN : o, Sir, not in the modern White economy as far as 1
know.
Mr. GROSS :his fact, this phenomenon, has no economic justification,
or explanation: or does it, Sir?
Mr. KROGH :nless you imply that aDamara could in fact do such a
job better than a White man can then it would have economic disadvan-
tages for the Territory asa whole, because then you would have a mis-
allocation of your resources. Ifit can be shown that he can do that
better,Sir,than a White manager, if that is the case, then 1 can say as
an economist that this, without taking any other factors into considera-
tion, woulti be uneconomic. But 1 do not agree with your implied as-
sumption that he couId in fact do this job better than a White man, who
is at present occupying such jobs. Even if you were to replace that White
man he would be a loss to the economy because he can becorne a social
burden, so you will have to start creating jobs and opportunities for him.
As an economist 1 say this quite clearly and abcolutely, Sir.
Mr. G~oss:1am not seeking to imply anythingby my question. 1 have
not sought the Court to infer from anything 1 have said that there
should be any automatic replacement. My question Ras addressed to
you as an economist concerning the impact or effcct of the rcstrictionç,
both social and legal, upon advancement, and if 1 have understood you
correctly, Sir, yousaid that as an economist yoii felt that the failure to
utilize-1 am paraphrasing, and correct me if 1 am wrong-the skill,
which we are assuming for the sake of this discussion-is uneconomic (1
think that is the word you used) :is that correct, Sir?
Mr. KROGH : If your assumption is correct that the Damara is in fact
more skilful and in a position to perform that job better-ital1depends
on your assumption-and disregarding for the moment al1 other con-
siderations, such as social friction or the nature of the particular popula-
tion involved.
Mr. GROSS:1 am addressing myself to you :içan economist in this
context.
Mr. KROGH :es, as an economist 1 must answer that question by
sa~ing that 1 musf take into consideration the particular set of circum-
stances, Sir, before1can make recornmendations or express views.
Mr. GROSS :Well, Sirperhaps we can turn to aiiother industrinwhich
the ordinance prohibits the execution on the part of non-Whites of
apprenticechip contracts, 1referto the motor industry. 1sthere a motor
industry in the northern territory?124 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
The PRESIDENT :A motor industry in what sense?
Mr. G~oss: 1s there first of al1 an automobile factory, or assembly
plant; and secondly, are there automobile accessory stations?
Mr. KROGH :here are no automobile factories'or asçembly plants in
the whole of South West Africa. It would not be justified economically
to start anything likethat. As a matter of fact, South Africais just on
the verge of starting one now.
&Ir.GROSS: Then let me turn, if1may, to the second part, in response
to the suggestjon for clarification ofmy question. What about motor
industry in the sense of service stations, or repair stations,or other
accessories to the motor age? Do you have any such aspects of the motor
industry at the prcsent tirne, in Ovamboland, for example?
Xr. KRQGHN : O,Sir, because 1 do notthink that there are more than
150 motor cars in the whole of Ovamboland, but 1 know for a fact that
they are at the moment building (1saw the very construction there) a
service station in the territory to encourage non-White garage operators
to operate themselves in the area, because the few cars150 is, relatively
speakiiig, very few, often have to go out of the territory to obtain their
petrol or to have repairs effected.1 could not possibly imagine that a
repair station or a garage would ever have been juçtified, say,IO years
aga in Ovamboland, because 1takeit there would only have been about
IO motor vehicles in the whole of the territory at that stage.
Mr. G~oss: So is it fair to Say, Sir, that from the standpoint of the
non-IVhites who live and work in the economic sector, there are no or
very few avaiiable employment opportunities in the northern territories
in this industry?
Mr. KROGH:At this particular stage, yeç, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: Are you aware of any economic or other reasons for the
prohibition in the ordinance of the execution of apprenticeship contracts
by non-Whites in the motor industry in the economic sector?
Mr. XROGH: Sir,1 think my answer here would be similar to that
which 1 gave with regard to a similar question which you put to me
previously on the other industry.It isexactly the same situation, thaif
this limitation in fact operates-and 1 do not know exactly in which
trades they are effective-then 1would Say that that would be because
those who are at present mechanics in the modern sector, qualified motor
mechanics as they cal1them there, might feel that their particularern-
ployment position and prospects would in fact be threatened. But 1 can
also add, Sir, that there are service stations operating, for instance, in
urban areas such as Katutura, near Windhoek, rvhere White employees
are not allowed ta compete with non-White employees in the supply of
garage services.
The PRESIDENT :vidence haç been given that inthe urban areas, in
Katutura, is it, there are service stations which are wholly run by non-
White people.
Mr. KROGH : hat is correct, Sir.
The PRESIDENTD : O they engage in running repairs, or any repairs?
Do you know that?
Mr. KROGH : ell,Sir, 1would not know that detail, but1 take it that
they would stock certain accessories. Whether they would undertake
major repairs, motor car repairs,I wouId not be able to state stralght
away. 1 would Say that until quite recently the)?probably preferre! to
have aWhite rnechanic work onnon-Whitecars.This could quite possibly WITNESSES AXD EXPERT3 I25
have happened, that you would market your work in White qualified
garages wliere White mechanics work.
The PRIZSIDENT C:ould you give the Court a picture regarding the
urban area.swhere thenon-Whites are housed, in Katutura, of the extent
to which there would be cars used by those who live in that area?
Mr. KRCIGH Y es, Sir. Katutura isacompletely modernly constructed
township ilutside Windhoek. It has asphalt streets leading up to the
township. Itis occupied by different population groups.A characteristic
of this area ishst certain blocks of these houses, of modern construction,
are used by different groups.
The PRESIDENT:Yes, we heard that, Dr. Krogh; it is only a question
of the cars.
hlr. KROGH: 1 am sorry, Sir. There are cars, and I think even a bus
service operating between Windhoek, where you have the urban Euro-
pean reçidents and where most of these employment opportunities are,
andKatutura. 1think-1 might be wrong on this, but 1think 1 have been
told-that the owner of this bus service is alsoa member of the non-
White population group and there are service stations in Katutura,
serving the cars owned by non-Whites. 1 have seen many taxis, for
instance, operating betwecn Katutura and coiiveying non-White pas-
sengers, driven by non-White taxi drivers. But to the extent that there
are motor mechanic and garage repair works 1 cannot Say offhand, Sir.
The PRESIDENT: 1 just wanted to get the general picture, &Ir.Gross,
that isall.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir.
[Public hearingof 24 September 19651
The PRE:SIDENT :he hearing is resumed.
Mr. G~oss: Thank you, Sir.Dr. Krogh, I shouId like to clear up one
or two points which were covered in previous testimony givenby yourself,
Sir. First,I should like toaddress your attention toyour comments in
the verbatim record of 23 Septemher, at page 114, sufirg, where you
referred, among other things, to the following. Quoting it, 1believe, in
context correctly you said:
"1 l.hink you must, as an economist, Say that these replations
would be designed to limit the number of skilled people in the
territnry, viewed as a homogeneouç lvhole, to qualify for particular
trades."
And, then further, talking about restrictions, you said as follows on the
same page:
"Yes, 1 tliink such restrictions, in the case of South West Africa,
and the economic effects thereof thatit rnay have to the detriment
of the development of the Territory, are, in fact, cornpensated.fpr,
and, in fact, circumvented by a policy which creates opportunities
fortraining of theskilled people in a different arganization."
1 should like to ask you, first, if you would, please, elucidate the
reference to "a different organization".Would you explain to the Court
what you had in mind in that phrase?
Mr. KROGH: Sir,1 am glad you refer to that part of my testimony
because 1 might have created the impression that no avenues are, in fact,126 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
available for these people to acquire skiiis. This is not the case. They
have, in fact, an institution which gives them both the theory and
practical side of becoming slcilled or qualified in certain trades. 1 am
thinking in particular of the Augustineum at Okahandja where these
people are trained and are examined, in fact, to obtain certificates of
qualification withregard to the specific tradin which they areinterested
to qualify themselves.
Apart from this, there is nothing that prohibits a member of a non-
White group from acquiring the necessary skill, experience and know-
ledge, Sir, outside the apprenticeship contractilalprovision. There is
nothing that prevents them from becoming skilled and occupying posts
after they have acquired these skills in the whole Territory. There are
no legal restrictions placedon them, except for those cases that Ihave
mentioned earlier onin rny testirnony-namely there are certain posts
in the mining industry in the White area and in the supply of public
transportation services in the southern White economy of the Terri-
tory.
Sir,in order to give you a true perspective or seriof proportion in this
regard, because 1think 1 might havecreated the impression that there are
no skilled non-White workers in the Territory, or semi-skilled for that
matter, 1have here figures which 1 took from the 1960 census giving you
the occupational distribution of Natives working in thé so-called Police
Zone. Now, 1will not bore you with any figures, but I only want to give
you a sense of proportioni~ithis regard. In this census o1960 indicating
occupational distribution of Natives engaged in economic activity in the
southern sector there was, in fact, a total classified as skilled and semi-
skilled workers-a total of 21,230. Let us Say approximately 20,000-
against what has been classified in the census as labourers-that is
workers who would not, according to the industrial census classifications,
be regarded either as skiLled or unskilled-numbering ro5,617 (or ap-
proxirnately IOO,OOO). In other words, the ratio of what we can regard as
skilled and semi-skilled on the one hand, to the number that we can
regard as labourers (that would be non-skilled in any sense of the word)
on the other would be Ito 5. This, 1 think, clearlv gives a better sense of
proportion or perspective in respect of the issue of limiting, through the
Apprenticeship Act, them from acquiring skills or qualifying for the
different trades. Apart from having theçe qualifications they are also in
fact engaged in these economic activities. In other words they are not
being prevented from earning a living and practising their skills in the
economy of the southern sector, SirThat is exactly what 1 tried to Say,
and Ijust wanted to correct any misunderstanding. With regard to your
specific question,1 tried to answer that very specifically there, Sir.
hlr. GROSS : ould it befair to Say, Sir, that in responsemyo question
the phrase "different organization" referred to the Augustineum school
to which you referred? Are there any other organizations? This was my
question, please, Sir.
Mr. KROGK: Sir, there is this one specifically organized for the non-
White population groups at the Augustineum. There are at the moment,
no such other institutions-as far as 1 know, not even for the White
section of the community. There are no technical colleges, as fat as I
know.
There is just this one in the southern sector and1know for a fact that
plans are under way for establishing such institutionsandtrainingschoolsr28 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
whatsoever legaUy upon non-White labourers acquiring ski11and being
taught the necessary theory and being given the necessary encourage-
ment, other than the one 1have mentionedwith regard to the Apprentice-
ship Act, but this has been circumvented, as it were. This does not mean
either that they do not get the opportunity or that they are not encour-
aged to do so, as these figures have proved to you just now, Sir.
I cannot go through every particular industry. South 'IlresAfrica is
not an industriaiized country,by no meanç. There are certain individual
trades that rnight resemble something which is called, in Western econo-
mic jargon, an industry, but in fact they would be one-man organizations,
one-man enterprises or small companieç. The only particular industries
that are wortfi mentioning in the Western sense of the word, that is
having large capital investment and a hierarcliy of management that
could represent a type of industry such as you find in a developed
country, are the beer brewing industry in South West Africa and the
fishing industry which is in Walvis Bay. As 1pointed out the other day,
the latter has only been developed on a large scaleuring the last decade
or 12 years-so there are in fact two industries. For the rest there are
small trades rather than industries in any proper sense of the word, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: Can you indicate to the Court to what the skills, to which
you refer, would relate? If you wish to take any industry or any mineral
exploitation or mine, what type of skills would in fact be made available
to the non-White employee?
Mr. KROGH: Weil, Sir, 1 think we can answer that question very
cIearly if you will permit me to give you a breakdown of the figures
which 1 have here and which show what kind of occupations the non-
White workers, who are classified as skilled and semi-skilled in the
industrial census, in fact occupy1 think this would give you a very good
idea of what they do. There are professional and technical people in-
cluding teachers in the medical service-thisisadministrative obviously,
being professional-then there are clerical, sales and relatedworkers;
there are also craftsmen and production workers numbering 107 in the
textile and leather trades; metal urorkers, 98; carpenters and joiners,
124; painters,121; bricklayers and plasterers, 698; potters, brick and
clay workers (these are also al1classified under skilled and semi-skilled),
143; food workers, 156-this would include slrilled and serni-skilled
workers in the fishing industry, because this would be a major food
industry. Then there are workers with stationary engines and other
equipment operators, ships' crews, drivers of motor vehicles and so forth.
1 can go on further, Sir, but that gives you an impression of the number
of skilled and semi-skilled non-White people and their different occupa-
tions.1 cannot tell you exactly in which industry they are working.
Mr. G~oss: Thank you, Sir. With respect to these enurnerations which
you have madein the various industries, do these jobs to which you refer,
to which the skills apply, do any of them involve supervisoryor manage-
rial functions?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, some of them do, Sir, and 1 have the figure here for
managers, under administrativeand managerial. Theyhave a çubheading
here, managers, 42.
Mr. GROSS A:nd where are they employed, Sir?
Mr. KROGH: In the soiithern sector. The figures refeto the Occupa-
tional Distribution of Natives in South West Africa, 1960 census, in
the southern sector. WITKESSES AND EXPERTS Izg
31r. GROSS:42 non-Whites in managerial capacities in the southern
sector,is tliat the purport of your testimony?
Rlr.KROGH :his isaccording to the industn:~l census figures, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:\.l7edo understand you, Sir, that in the southern sector
there are only 42 non-Whites wko are in managerial capacity in any
industry 01.mineral exploitation?
Rlr.KROGH: According to the census, Sir, yes.
Mr. GROSS:ilrith respect again to the skilis to which 1 referred, 1
believe yoii referred yesterday to the purport, in fact 1 have read your
testimony, with respect to the restrictions which are designed to limit
the number ofskilled people inthe territory; thefigures you have cited
of skilled non-Whites in the several industries you have mentioned have
been developed (those skills have been developed,have they) in industries
to which these regulations do not apply?
Mr. KROGH : ir, these skills have been acquired in South West Africa,
in the southern rnodernized economy, outside the apprenticeship Iaw
regdation that we discussed yesterday. This clearly indicates that this
restriction does not prevent people from acquiring skills, in the Territory.
Mr. GROSS: Do those figures, SirI neglected to make a note as you
were reading thern, in the several industries you referred to, do they
include mining? Skilled non-Whites in mining?
Mr. KROCH: Yes, the industrial census, as far as my knowledge goes,
wouId regard rnining operations, which are highly technical, as industrial,
and Iwould say that mining would be the main industrial, and the most
highly indi*strialized, activity in the territory. So the figures woulin-
clude mining too. Unfortunately, 1 have not got the figures to break fhis
down for ou for every industry-how many are in mining and how
many in the fishing industry and so forth.1cannot quite see, doyou want
to have .. .
&Ir. GROSS:. . . I would be glad to, with the President's permission.
The question, ta clarify itfor you, Sir-but 1 tllinkyou have answered
it,actually-is whether you have information, and if so please give it
to the Court, coiicerni~lgthe number of skilled non-Whites listed in the
mining industry. 1think you have answered that.
Mr. KROGH: 1 have not got the figures for the mining industry as such
here, Sir, but1 could supply them for you.
Mr. GROSS:YOUhave no appreciation of the ~iumbers, apart from the
statistics, you have no idea as a student of theares?
blr. KRC~GH W:ell, 1 cannot give you the number that-are in fact
ernployed in the mining industry in the White modernized part of the
southern sector of the economy of South West Africa; but 1 can tell you
that a very small percentage, 1 think it is not more than IIper cent., of
the total econoniicaily active non-Whites in the southern sector is, in
fact, employed in the mining industry-not more than 11 per cent. And
1 can tell you, furthermore, thatby far the largi:r part: of these emanate
as migrant workers from the northern territory, because in the mming
industry tliey can work in teams, whereas they would .othenvise be
spread al1over the country. Their particular labour condit~ons, housing,
feeding, transportation,and so on, can be much better organized, seen to
and inspected when they are concentrated in the two main mining areas.
This is one of the reasons why a large nurnber of these workers are migrant
workers. There are other very good economic reiisons, which are in both
their interest and the interest of the mining industry. 130 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
But the number in question is definitely a small percentage. It is part
ofrr percent. of the total butI cannot çay tvhatpart of theII per cent.
are in fact skilled or semi-skilIehave not got the figureswith me here.
The PRESIDENT 1:s itII per cent. of the total labour forceor total
population?
Mr. KROGH S:ir, this is of the total economically active, that means of
the labour force. The latter times four will give you the approximate
total population.
Mr. G~oss:Witk respect, 1take it that theshort answer to the question
isthat you do not know the number of skilled non-LVhites, if any, in the
mining industry? That is, 1takeit, the answer?
Mr. KROGH :es, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: With respect to the opportunities for training, you have
testified,you have expressed your opinion, with respect to the restrictions
1 on apprenticeship contracts. 1sitnot a fact that in the mining industry,
among others, there are restrictionson employment opportunities and
promotions to enumerated jobs-is that not correct, Sir?
Mr.KROGH S:irI think Ihave explained thi before, namely that there
are certain posts that are reserved for skilled Whites and managerial
White workers in the mining industry in the White sector of South West
Africa. But similar restrictions operate, with regard to rnining activity,
in the non-White orNative areas where the members of these groupshave
preference in these particular posts.
Mr. GROSS:DO the restrictions in the listed posts, which are in the
record and enumerated, not deprive the non-Ihites of opportunities for
training and acquiring skills in those forbiddeor restricted jobs?
Mr. KROGH :ir, to that extent, ye...
hlr.GROSSC : ouldyou answer that question, yes or no.
Mr. KROGHI:t is difficult, Sir, for me to answer yes or no. One cannot
be dogmatic about these things. You have to take the aItematives into
consideration. This is the basic approach of any econamist, to consider
alternatives and not to be dogmatic with regard to particular . . .
Mr. GROSS:Mr. President, may 1 rephrase my question, which appears
to have been misunderstood. Does the denial of opportunity to the non-
Whites working in these mines curtail or deprive them of the opportunity
to acquire skills requisito those positions?
Mr. KROGH :o the extent that they are people who are interested in
occupying-.these jobs, that are in fact alreadyoccupied, then 1 should
Say yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS C:ould it poçsibly be answered in any other way, Sir, or is
there some method by which, to use your phraseology in your testimony,
the effect of the deprivation of these training opportunities is, as you
said, circumvented by a policy creating opportunitiesfor training else-
where? If so, and specifically in the case of mines, will you indicate how
that limitation ishcumverhed.
Mr. KROGH :hat limitation, Sir,iscircumvented by encouraging and
training people in the mines, especially the tin mine that is in the Damara
homelands.
Mr. GROSS: Are you aware, Sir, that the law which restricts oppor-
tunity for promotion applies to al1 mines owned by Europeans, as the
phrase goes in the legislation?
Mr. KROGH :es, Sir, but Europeansmay onlp own mines in the White
areas set aside for them. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 131
hlr.CROSS: YOU refe~~edyesterday to a tin niine, did you not?
IlIr. KROGH:But which tin mine was this?
lr. G~oss: The Uis Tin Mine.
hlr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
Bir.CROSS:Now that tin mine is located where, Sir?
Mr. KROCH: It is near the Brandberg, not far from Omaruru and
Usakos, Sir.
The PRESIDENT:Ilihere is that?
Mr. KROGII ':'hatis in the southern sector and it forms part of the
proposed large Damaraland. It Iies in partof the large area set aside by
the Odendaal Commission for this particular purpose.
Mr. GROSS:This is in what is called one of the Reserves, isn't it, Sir?
Mr. KROCH:Sir, 1 might have given the wrong iiiipression here. I
should indicate that this falls within the large proposed Damaraland. 1
could make sure of that particular point ...
Mr. G~oss: 1 am asking with regard tothe present situation.1sthe tin
mine, towhich you refer, Iocated ina Reserve?
The PRESIDENT A:n existingReserve?
Rlr. Geoss: Yes, Sir.
Mr. KROGH :If YOU will permit me, the Odendaal Commission report
is lving next to me, and 1 could locate the particular mine and answer
that qcestio~i.
The PRESIDEKTT : he question is, is it within an existing Reserve?
Mr. KRCIC :Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:1 can Save your time, Sir. Page 341 of theOdendaal Com-
mission report refers to the Uis Tin Mine, near the Brandberg in the
Omararu district. 1s that the mine to which yoii referred, Sir?
Mr. KRC~G MH:st of these Reserves set asidefa11within magisterial
districtsfor administrative purposes, Sir. The fact that it is classasied
falling in the On~aruru administrative district does not necessarily mean
that itdocs not fa11in a Reserve.I just want to make quite sure on that
point. 1am looking for a map, Sir.
Mr. GROSS Shall 1 wait,Mr. President, whilethe witness consults his
map?
The PRESIDENT:Yes, if you really want that information.
Mr. GROSS:As a matter of fact, Sir,1 did not want to curtail the wit-
ness from answering in any way he thinks. It iç really not essential for
the purpore of my enquiry. In order to expeditit the proceedings, ma1
turn to the point that1am really getting at, Sir?
The Odendaal Commission report with respect to this mine states that
this Company,or thistin mine, is a wholly owned subsidiary of the South
Africsn Iron and Steel Industrial Corporation Limited. Is that a Euro-
pean-owned company?
Mr. KRCICH: Yes, Sir, but to the extent that the non-Imites of that
particular area have not yet reached the stage to undertake, operate and
finance mining, this is being done under special permission in these non-
White areils by outside capital, technique and management, but with
the vcry clear understanding that thiss (ta employ avery popular word
that is used in the rest of Africa) tbe "Afric:~nized" as soon as these
people are, in fact, qualified, show an aptitude and interest to undertake
mining activity. The alternative, Sir,would have been to not have
developed thiç mine at ail.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, 1 do not wish to engage in controversy with you. My=32 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
question said or irnplied nothing with respect to the justification or
otherwise ofownership. 1 addreçs the question simply to you, Sir, for the
sake of the clarity of the record-is the Company referred to in the
Odendaal Commission report, to which 1 have referred, a European-
owned Company, or is it not?
Mr. KROGH:It is a European-owned Company-but it is not in fact
owned by Whites in South West Africa.
Mr. GROSS: 1 refer again to the restrictions upon the achievcrnenby
non-Whites in the rnining industry in South West Africa of certain
promotions to listed posts. That is limited, Sir, to European-owned
mines, is it not?
hlr. KROGH :ir, if the Uis Mine is within an esisting Native Reserve,
these restrictions that 1have referred to would not operate against non-
White employees. This is the policy and, if it does, then it is in fact an
irregulari bec,use it should not. If this Uis Minedoes net, at this
moment, fa11within a reserved area but would as soon asthis large srea
is proclaimed a Native area, then1 can give you the assurance, Sir, that
thesc restrictions that we Iiave referred to would not operate in favour of
White mine-workers in that particular territory.
Mr. CROSS: 1s there any provision, of which you are aware, in the
legislative restrictions with regato promotion in the mining industry
in the case of non-Whites, which makes exceptioiisinthe case of the Uis
Tin Mine?
Mr. KROGH1 : do not dispose of that detailed informationSir.
Mr. GROSS D:o you know, Sir, whether or not there are, in fact, non-
IVhites employed in the Uis Tin Mine in any of the listed categories from
which they are excluded by the terms of the regulations?
&Ir.KROGH 1:do not know, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: Thank pou. When you referred yesterday, therefore-to
cal1your attention to the testimony you gavewith respect to the tin mine
ai page 1x2,supra, of the verbatim record-1 tvilread to you the foltow-
ing statement :
"As a matter of fact, now 1 come to think of it, there ian im-
portant tin mine, for instance, in the new and large proposed
Damara land, that is in operation and in fact is being exploitand
I take it thatthis would give an opportunity to train these people,
if these minera1 resources should become economrcally feasible to
develop in the northern territories."
Now, when you referred, therefore, to your opinion that this Jin mine
would give an opportunity to train these people, you did not intend, 1
take it,to refer to the fact thayou knew that they were being actually
employed?
Mr. KROGH:NO,Sir, that is not, in fact, implied by my statement. 1
said this would give them an opportunity to do so.
Rlr.GROÇS: The opportunity would then come about as a result of
an exception possibly being made to the mining laws? 1s that what you
had in mind about opportunity?
Mr. KROCH: Yes, Sir. Itwould, in fact, give them an opportunity to
acquire skills in the mining industry.
Mr. GROSÇ: If the regulations were amended, orifa special exception
were made, they would have that opportunity. That, I take it, is the
sense of your testimony on page 112,sztpra? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I33
Mr. KROGH:NO,Sir, 1 want to give the very clear impression there,
that itis ]lot a matter, as far as an observeand an economist iscon-
cerned, about amending existing laws. 1 was trying to indicate to you
very clearly that the operation of these mining laws relates to particular
areas in wl~ich White mineworkers have a prc:ference, and that these
limitations do not operate in favour of the White miners in areas outside
the White area. 1also tried to indicate that to the extent that these
limitations in the White area would preclude non-CVhitesfrom acquiring
mining skills, special arrangements would be made to allow the non-
White workers to acquire these skilIsifand when they are required for
the development of mining resources in non-White areas where they
would theri receive preference and priority with regarto the occupation
of thesejobs. This is the sametheme which 1tsied to pursue yesterday,
Sir.
Mr. GROSS :Wodd you please tell the Court, as shorasyyou can, Sir,
whether, on the basis of your knowledge, there are any non-Whites
employed inany mining enterprise in South West Africa in a prohibited
position?
Mr. KR~GH:TOthe extent that non-W'hites are employed in the mining
industry in the southern White sector of the economy, these restrictions
operate with regard to their promotion in this particular industrand 1
set out very clearly yesterday why 1,as an ecoriomist, could understand
and appreciate, why under the setof circumstances such as those in South
West Africa, these restrictions may be regarded as necessary by the
responsiblt: authority.
Mr.G~oss:Are there, in your knowledge, any non-Wliites inthe mining
industry iil South West Africa (1 refer for themoment to the southern
sector), who are employed in any of the listed positions?Was your answer
inténded to Say "No" to that question?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, there are restrictions in this regard.
&IrGROSS There are restrictions-thatisclear in the record. Are there
any non-Whites in the southern sector who, so faras you know, hold any
position in the mines which fa11within the restricted categones?
The PRISSIDENTD : Oyou understand the question?
hlr. KROGH:Not quite, Sir.
The PRESIDENT The question seems to be simpIe enough. In other
words, are you, of your own knowledge, aware of any of the reserved posts
in the mining industry in the southern sector occupied by non-Whites?
That is the question, isn'it,Mr. Gross?
hfr. G~ciss:Yes, Sir.
The PRICSIDEN DT: you know, or do you not know?
Mr. KROGH1 :do not know, Sir.
The PRISSIDENTT :hat is the answer.
Mr. GROSÇ: Thank you, Sir. Did you not testify yesterday,Sir, that
the output of the existing mines in the southern sector was something
like
tory?o per cent. of the total production of the South West Africa Terri-
hlr. KRQGH: 1 said, Sir, that the t\..O.
Mr. G~oss:1 asked whether you had said tIiat yesterday, Sir, so far
as you recall.1 just did not tvant tput words into your mouth, Sir.
Mr. KROGHN :O,Sir,1 did not Say that.
Mr. GRC~SÇY : OUdid not Say that.mat did yau say?
Mr. KROGH:I saidthat diamond mining and copper mining in South134 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
West Africa were, in fact, responsible (these two) for about go per cent.
of the total value of mineral production in the Territory, but that the
value of output does not reflect, in fact, the degree to which they are in
any way important as ernployers of labour in the Terntory. On the
contrary, they make a very big contribution with regard to the export
value of minerais, but a very small contribution to the creation of em-
ployment opportunities.
Sir, mining, exccpt when it is on such a very large scale as in the case
of the Republic of South Africa, is generally regarded by economists
as a very poor starter of modern economic development and creator of
employment opportunities in the underdeveloped world, Sir, unless it is
of such a large scope that it in fact could do this, but compared with any
other industry, like the dcveloprnent of agriculture or msnufacturing
industry, it is often quoted as one of the worst starters of modern
economic activity in the underdeveloped world. So the value of the
minera1 exports does not reflect the extent to which employment oppor-
tunities are in fact created by the mines, 1 think it is a false association
to bring value of minera1 exports or production in connection with the
number of employment opportunities in the Territory.
Air.GROSSS : ir, how many persons are employed in mining industries
outside the southern sector of the Territory, do you know?
&Ir.KROGHT : here would be very few,Sir,outside the IVhite sector in
the Temtory.
Mr. G~oss: So that in applying the employment ratio standard wliich
you advised the Court you prefer, what roughly would be the percentage,
the ratio, of ernployees in the mining industries in the southern sector as
compared to the territory outçide that sector?
Mr. KROGH1 : will have to make an estimate, Sir, if you don't mind.
It would be a very small percentage, 1 would Say definitely less than
5 per cent. .
Mr. GROSS:SOthat on that ratio there is even a larger discrepancy
than taking the currency-up ratio, or at least about the same, let us Say.
Afr.KROGHY : es, Sir.
&Ir.GROSST :herefore on either basis the preponderant proportion of
the industry is in the southern sector-that iç correct, is it not, Sir?
&Ir.KROGHY : ou are cornparing two quite different economies.
&Ir. GROSS: 1 am not asking you to describe the econornies-jf the
wiii bear with me, Sir, the answer to the question whether, in your expert
opinion, one could fairly Say that the preponderant output and em-
ployment of and in the mining industries is in the çouthern sector.
Mr. KROGH : Definitely, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Turning to another matter, are there, if you know, any
non-White engineers in the Territory of South West Africa?
hlr.KROGH:As far as 1 know, no.
Mr. GROSS:Are there, as far as you know, any non-Mites being
trained as engineers in South itTestAfrica?
Mr. KROCHN : o, Sir, not as far as 1know.
The PRESIDENT\:Vhen you speak of an engineer, Mr. Gross, may
1 ask, is that a fully qualified engineer or anybodyengaged in the
engineering skills?
Air.GROSSE : ngaged with engineering skills, in any employment.
The PRESIDENTT : hat is another matter. WITNESSES APiD EXPERTS 135
Mr. KROGHS :ir, there are no universities in South West Africa-and
no university degree for non-IVhite engineers, but they use the word
engineer, ;is you appreciate, for al1kinds of technical work, too.
Mr. GROSSH : OWmany, ifnny-perhaps you have answered this, but
1 do not recall it-non-Llihitesare being trained as engineers in South
1Vest Africa-did you answer that question, Sir? 1 regret1 do not re-
call.
Mr. KROGHY : es, 1did answer that question.
Mr. G~ctss: And the answer was what, Sir?
Rfr. KROGH T:he answer is, so far as 1know, not any at the moment.
Mr. CROSS:So that in your reference in your testimony to skilled
people, opportunities for training of skilled peoplitdoes not refer to
engineering skills?
Mr. KR~CH:It would refer to that. 1 said that the opportunity would
exist there for them to acquire the skills as and when they are in fact
required by that particular industry operating in that particulararea.
There is nopoint in training and qualifying people if there is no demand
for them; you create a greater problem by educating people and then
leaving them unemployed than in fact not educating them at al1 for
particularposts.
Air.GRCISS1 :s any attention paid to the ivish of the individuaas to
his own accomplishment, his own talent and capacity? IS itentirely
determineii by thedemand to the extent to which heisgiven opportunity
to be trained?
Mr. KROCHT :he demand for thjs particular person must exist; there
is no pointin qualifying an individual...
BIT.KROCH1:ENTam Tsorry, Sir,1could not quite get that.u.
The PRESIDENTT :he question is: regarding an individual, whether
there was or was not a demand for a particular skill, is the opportunity
open to him to acquire theskill in this mcthod tvhich you have indicated
to the Court, by attending these schools of instruction and acquiringa
ski117That is the question.
Mr. KR~GHY :es, Sir, there would be opportunity for him in fact to
acquire such skills.
Mr. GROSSI:f he seized the opportunity, would he be able to utilize
his skill orice he went through the timeffort and expense of acquiring
this ski117
EiIr.KROGHT :Othe extent that there is a dt:mand for his skills, yes.
Rlr. GROSSA :nd is there a demand for his skills in the present situation
- inthe ecoriorny?
&Ir.KROGHN : otinthe mines inthe White area.
Mr. GROSS1 : am talking about industry and mines, or any other
enterprises which require, let us say, engineering skills1s there any
existing demand forsuch skills on the part of non-IVhites in theTerritory
atthe present time?
Nr. KROGHY : es, I can think of an example-for instance, in this
particular furnitureactory operating in Ovamboland.
Mr. GRC~S Sam talking about the southern sector, Sir.
Mr; KROCH :he çouthern sector-no, 1 cannot think of there being
any demarid for his services at thisstage. There are. asfar as Iknow, even
very few 1Vhite engineers in South West Africa-there could notbe very
many more than two dozen.136 SOUTH WEST AFBICA
hlr. GROSS:Would the same response apply to other professions asto
which the apprenticeship restrictions govern?
hlr. KROCH:These people acquire skills, as 1pointed out just now, and
thereis no prohibition on them to occupy jobs in the White sector in so
far as there is a demand for their services in the White economy. The
people that 1 have listed here are in fact, wifew exceptions, occupying
these skilled jobs in the modern White economy in the so-called Police
.Zone, if that is the point. There is no restriction, as these figures prove to
you, and the extent to which such restrictions as those in the mining
industry operate, 1can assure you they are of marginal and not of fun-
damental importance from an economic viewpoint for the Territory's
development-1 made that point yesterday.
Mr. G~oss: 1 am not sure 1 understood your answer to my question,
but 1 \vil1not pursue it. In the course of your testimony yesterday, at
page 114, supra, again in the context of the response to rny question
concerning the restrictions and the economic effects thereof,you said as
follows :
"As a rnatter offact,if1am allowed to put it to you that we may
look at the Republic of South Africa as an esample of things to
come, then it is very clear to me that no restrictiowould be placed
on the training of these people. As we al1know, it is in fact a positive
and concrete development policy in South Africa to train these
people, but not as minor apprentices working alongside White
workers, as 1 would imagine this would be a provision reflecting
again, or being an economic cost due to the complex and delicate
social situation inuch a particular set of circumstances."
Ihat I want, if1may, to draw your attention to and ask your comment
upon is whether, in terms of the restrictions, "no restrictions would be
placed on the training of these people" in South Africa as a shape of
things to come in the lèrntory, what peopIe are you referring to and
what sort of restrictions?Let me stop there-~vhorn did you mean by
"these people"?
Mr. KROGH: CVhen 1use the words "these people" 1 use a collective
term to indicate peopIe who are in fact not regarded as members of the
White and economically viable group in South Africa. Secondly, tliere
is no restrictio...
Mr. G~oss:Pardon me, Sir, may 1 hold you to that point, with the
President's permission? 1 have not understood your answer to my
question."These people"-is this a colloquialism on your part for non-
White?
Mr. KROGH:In the context of the question you asked me, 1 take it
that "these" or "they" referred to the people you were referring to in
your question, which 1 have not with me now, Sir.
Nr. GROSS:Iell, you used the expression; 1 do not want to badger
you with this; when you said "these people" in that context, were you
refemng to non-imites? 1 just wanted to make it clear.
hfr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, 1 was referring to non-Whites.
Mr. G~oss: You were about to mention some point that you thought
relevant tothiç question?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, what 1had in mind with regard to looking to South
Africa as anexample of things to come, 1think it is very relevant, put
it to you clearly that there is no legalrestriction in South Africa operating WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I37
in the apprenticeship law with regard to non-Whites, asit does in South
West Africa. In other words, the apprenticeship law in South Africa does
not discriminate inrespect ofthe member of a particular group. However,
restrictions have operated in fact outside the law for reasons of custom
and through control of entry into a particulür trade, as 1 explained
yesterday. These rules and regulations operate outside the purely legal
framework of a country in any trade, and this lirnited the nurnber of
skilled and semi-skilled people that were available in South Africa. In
order to circumvent that bottle-neck, asit were, in qualifying mernbers
of the non-White population group to acquire skilis, special institutions
and organizations have in fact been established by the Governmeiit to
give these members ofthe non-White population groups both the theory
and practice thnt wouId make them skilled and semi-skilled workers.
Itmight be of great interest to you, Sir, to ltnow that the number of
people entering and acquiring skills in South Africa, outside the appren-
ticeship systern,and this refers to both Whites and non-ii'hites,is much
greater than the number that qualify through the apprenticeship
avenue.
The PRESIDENT:1s this cornmon'in the tradeç of many countrik in
the world?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
hlr. GROSS:Now it is true, is it not, Sir, that the acquisition of these
skiI1sthen is not available on the job-is that correct, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, you cannot acquire these skius unless, in fact, you do
the work-these people do the work, Sir.
Mr. GROSS A:nd that work is not bein- done because of no demand-is
that correct, Sir?
Mr. KROGH :ir, to the extent thatthere is no particular demand for
an industry or trade then it doesnot exist in the country; he cauld not
obtain exlierience in that particular trade.
Mr. GROSS:SOthat the training school, to ahich you refer, would be
training persons for jobs for which there would be no demand?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, on the contraw. The policy of industrialization in
South Africa, as you may very well know, sirbsidises and encourages
industries along the borders of the \%te area-there are part,icular
railway subsidies and taxation provisions and so forth. In fact, it dis-
criminates againçt industries developing in the existing IVhite areas in
favour of industries along the border nreas in order to encourage the
employment of and give empIoyment opportunities to members of the
non-White population groups that would otherwise be discriminnted
against or might be escluded from occupying jobs held at the moment by
White workers, Sir.
Rlr. GROSSY : OUwould agree 1think, Sir, with the logicof the necessity
of defining the areas of which we speak.
kir.KROGHY : es,Sir.
Alr. GRC)SÇX: OW,when we talk about demantl and when ivetalk about
trading opportunities, whether on the job or in organizations, in respect
of the territory of South West Africa, coming bxck tothat for a moment,
1am referring to the modern economy that is tiiSay the southern sector.
Have youc answen been directed toward that sector in response to my
questions concerning demand and training opportunities and on the job
training?
Alr.KROGH: Yes, Sir. They have this opportiinity. Thepare not ivith-13~ SOUTH WEST AFRICA
held from occupying and getting this experience and they are in fact being
taught the particular trades-there is no restriction legally to do this, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:1 understand you have answered rny question. Now, with
respect to South Africa you began to speak of or you had finished
speaking of industries on borders-I would invite your attention, Sir, not
to border industries or to present or projected industries outside the
White economy, as the phrase is, 1 am talking about the White economy
where there is a labour force largely composed of non-Whites. With
respect to that economy, 1 am talking now about South Africa, Sir,
d propos of your reference to it as the shape of things to come in South
West Africa, is there any demand, or, let me put it to you, is there any
training of non-White perçons with a view to their employment in that
White economy in their skilled positions?
MT. KROGH S:ir, these people are trained on the job and these jobs are
available in the jlrhite economy where they are created and, in fact,
there is a demand for them. These people acquire these skills, as the
figures clearly showed you, and they are employed there. They get the
experience and they are being taught there but not through the ap-
prenticeship way of acquiring these skills, Sir.
Mr. GROSS :et me perhaps give you a specific illustration, again with
respect to engineers, and again with reference to your comment con-
cerning South Africa as an example of things to come in the Territory.
I should like to quote from the debates of the House of Assembly of
South Africa of 25 May 1965 and the citation is No. 17, column 6638,
the following exchange :
" Bantu Engineers
14. Mr. Kaatrnan asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and
Development :how many qualified Bantu engineers are employed by
his department in the (a) Bantu and (6) White areas of the Re-
public.
Answer: the Minister of Mines: (a) and (b)-none.
15. Mr. Kaatman asked the Minister of Bantu Education: how many
Bantu are at present being trained as (a) roads, (b) public works,
(c) transportation, (d) telecommunications, (e) town, (f) eiectrical,
(g) water, (h) civil and constructional and (i) other types of
engineers.
Answer :the Minister of Economic Affairs : (a), (b), (c), (d), (e),
(f). (g),(h) and (i)-none."
Afnca? you familiar with the matter of training of engineers in South
Mr. KROGH: Sir,Ihave not made a special study of that-no.
Mr. G~oss: So you have no basis, expert or othenvise, to comment on
this colloquy in the House of Assembly debates?
Mr. KROGH: No, Sir, but 1 would like to Say that probably for every
engineer being employed in an industry, there would be at least two to
three hundred other skilled people in ratio to the particular engineer,
Sir, but 1would not like to comment on that. I have not made a study of
the training and employment of engineers as such, but 1 would like to
point out that 1 think those engineers refer to university qualified
people-I think so.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, Ishould like, as brieAy as possible, to refer to
the railways and harbours in South West Africa wvhich,according to the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I39
record, Cciunter-Mernorial, III,page 64, is administered by the Minister
of Transport of South Africa. In the Counter-&Iemorial, III,page 67,the
Respondent quotes the following statement by the Minister of Transport
as applied to South West Africa:
"M'eonly employ Natives to serve their own people where it is
practicable, and where it is acceptable to the rest of the stafBut
it will.not be acceptable tothe staff or the public that Natives should
be employed, even on Native trains, as firemen, conductors, or
guards. That is not my policy, anditwiil not happen."
Can you a.dvise the Court, Sir, whata Native train is?
Mr. KROGH: No, Sir.1 would not know what a Native train is but 1
would like to point out that railway building as a means of public
transportation was, in southern Africa, largely done in the previous
century. The modern forms of extending public transportation is by way
of motor transportation as a result of the revolution that has occurred in
this particuIar industry.I cannot, however, tell you what a Native train
is, that is a concept with which 1am not familiar, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Mat, Sir, would be your opinion, as an expert, concerning
the econornic reasons, if any, for the exclusioof non-Whites on a racial
basis from positions as firemen, conductors or pards?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, 1 could very well imagine, and 1 made this point
previously, that such an exclusion may be necesçary for the sake of good
labour relations and for the sake of social peaceThese two factors rnay
not be appreciated as being important for an economist who assumes a
type of society where there is social mobility and where the population
is relatively hornogeneous. Where, in aset of circumstances, as in South
West Africa, this is not the case-hereyou have different groups, people
viewing exch other as members of groups with suspicion-it is, foran.
economist at least, of fundamental importance not to forget in any
recomrnendations he makes or in any views hi: expresses, that there is
here a set of diverse social conditionthat may in fact, very well require
him to unilerstand and accept theçe particular limitationin the interest
of social peace and, thereby in the intereof economic development. Sir,
because without social peace-with continua1 strife and upheaval-there
can be no economic development or reform in :Lnycase.
hlr. G~oss: 1wil corne back to this question of social peace shortly,
with the Court's permission. 1 should like, however, now to address a
question to you, both aswitness and expert, with respect to organizGon
of labour, freedom of association and bargaining in South West Africa.
It is undisputed in the record-1 refer to the Counter-Mernorial, HI,
pages 91-92 ,s well as to the Memorials, 1, pages 129-130-that, by
terms of the Industnal Conciliation Act of 1952, which came into effect
in South West Africa under Proclamation No. 28 of 1953, there is no
provision for the registration of Native trade unions and no provision for
conciliation of disputes in so far as Native ernployees are concerned. Are
you familiar with that legislation and that policy, Sir?
hlr. KROGH:Sir, 1know that ...
Mr. G~oss:Can you answer that, yes or no, Sir?
Mr. KROGH :Yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss:You are familiar with it?
Mr. KROGH :Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:bIay 1continue? According to the Counter-hlemorial. 111,I4O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
at pages 93-94, Native workers in the Territory are represented at con-
ciliation board meetings on labour disputes by an inspector who is a
government officialAre you familiar~uith that practiceandthatpolicy,Sir?
Mr. KROGH Y:es, Sir.
hfr. GROSS: It further appears in the record, in the Rejoinder,V, at
page 31, that there are no Native trade unions in the Territory. Are you
familiar with that situation, Sir?
Nr. KROGH Y:eç, Sir.
Xr. GROSS: Now, wodd you explain to the Court, please, what
economic factors account for-1 address mlr question to you now as an
economic expert-and justify this limitation of labour organization and
collective bargaining on a racial basis in the Territory?
Mr.KROGH :Sir, would you allow me just a minute or two to explain to
you what the economist's approach is to the trade union movement as
such? Econornists are increasingly coming to the conclusion that un-
controlled and irresponsible labour union leadership and demands are in
fact contrary to the interest of economic development, even in highly
developed countries.
In South West Africa, Sir, as far as 1 can recollect, White labour
unions-there arenot many, probably two or three, 1am not sure, but it
is asmall number-ame tothe fore only quite recently; 1think at the
beginning of 1950 .urthermore, Sir, labour unions in underdeveloped
countries, and particularly in Africa, have proved not to have the
necessary insight in the limited extent, if any, to which collective bar-
gaining can, in fact, improve the economic positions, wages and working
conditions of their members. Neither, Sir, have they dispiayed any
leadership with regard to responsible union management that would
recommend them in any underdeveloped country.
Sir, these are not onmy views. Iwould like, Sir, if you would permit
me, to quote very briefly from two sources that have recently come to
my attention in this regard. These studies, undertaken by independent
bodies, state that after thpolitical independence of AfricanStates,one
of the first steps taken by the new governments that assumcd respon-
sibility for the administration and development of their territories was
to take sway al1forms of independent and autonomous leadership among
the labour unions operating in the rest of Africa, al1 in the intereçt of
political peace and in the interest of economic development of their
territories.
1 would like to substantiate this very briefiyby rcferring to two
sources. One is from ElioJ. Berg and Jeffrey Butler in an article entitled
"Trade Unions" in a publication with the title PoliticalPartie asd
National Integrution in Tro~ical Africa, edited by J. S.Coleman and
C. G. Rosberg, published in Berkeley and Los Angeles, by the University
of California Press,1964.1 quote, Sir, from page 366:
"Almost ever~vhere in the continent [and this refers to tropical
Africa] labourorganizations were taken over bythe governing parties
once independence was achieved. The process is already under way
in countries that are nearing independence.Itdiffers in degree; the
levers of control aremanipulated more gently and more discreetly
in Senegal and Ivory Coast than in Guinea or Ghana but in most
countries the result is the same. The labour movement, if not com-
pIetely subordinate to the party, is at least pliable and responsive
to party pressures. WITKESSES AKD EXPERTS I 4I
The process by which the party gains control over the labour
movement varies from country to country. Everywhere the party
brings to bear acombination of rewards aiid yunishment: Rewards
for unions and union leaders who are prepared to accept the role
originally designated by the party and punishments and harass-
ments for those who are recalcitrant.
Once in power, the Party has at its conimand a wide variety of
giftsand an abundance of penalties and ca.n quickly bend the most
deterrnined trade unions to its will."
Finally, Sir,1 quote, also,from page 367 of the same article:
"These rewards are powerful instruments, and frequently suffice
to bring understanding between trade unions and governing parties.
When they do not, the parties have not hesitaied to bring into play
al1thi: powerof the new state machinery under their control."
In fact, Sir, they soon lost their independent function as an organiza-
tion forcollective bargaining in the interest of their particumembers.
If you will permit me, Sir, to read very briefly amuch smaller para-
graph than the previous one, from another study entitled "Paradoxes of
African Trade Unionism, Organizational Chaos and Political Potential"
written by W. H. Friedland (assisted by G. E. Lichtblau), in Africa
Report, June 1965, edited by Helen Kitchei and published by the
AfricanjAinerican Institute in Washington. Ori page 12 it is stated as
follows :
"In the process of obtaining political independence, al1 African
leaders-in the tradition of political leadership everywherc-made
rash promises to the African people. Theyargued that their countries
were wealthy, but that the people were poor because of the drain of
resources to the metropolitan powers. By stopping this drain, it was
said, the material standards of life would iluickly rise."
That is on page rz and relevant to this we read further on page 13:
"In the past few years, Africa's political leaders have attempted
to coritrol the unions [these are labour unions] because they feared
not only tl-ieir political potential but also their ability to impede
economic development. In most cases control has been attempted by
the twin mechanism of CO-operationand coercion."
That is the end of that quotation, Sir.
The PRESIDENT W:ell, 1 do not think the witness haç finished his
comment upon your very general invitation to comment, Mr. Gross. 1
think the Court will adjourn now for 20 minutr!~.
Mr. G~oss: Thank you, Sir.
The PRESIDENT:Doctor, I gather you had riot completed your com-
ment upon the matter put to you by Nr. Gross. 1s that correct?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
The PRESIDENT : ould you cornplete it as briefly as you can?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir.Very briefly, 1 would like to Say, that, as an
economist, I can very well understand wlly restrictions could, in fact, be
placed on the officia1recognition of trade unions in a set of circumstances
that cannot be described as a highly developed type of economy or
labour market, but that the opportunity for organization is nevertheless
permitted. There isno restriction on the formation, Sir, in South West
Africa of non-White labour unions, but they are not allowed to registerr42 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
as such. The reason for this (1can very weIl see) is to give the leaders, or
the organized interests an opportunity to acquire experience to manage
and govern themselves and to learn the underlying economic principles
with regard to the effect of labour unions in negotiating for claimsand
that great responsibilitg rests upon them in this respect since theii
claims, ifgranted, have repercussions on other groups and the economy
considered as a whole.
Accordingly, 1 see these restrictions with regard to recognition or
registiation, Sir,as a transitional stage, as an educative restraint-a
concept we econornists usc for restrictions designed to first educate these
people in responsible leadership and management of their unions, which
otherwise very often,Sir, operate to the detriment of the members of the
particular union. 1 also know, Sir, that this is not a negative approach.
Administrative machinery is, in fact, provided by the responsible author-
ity that expressly lays down and looks after the interests of these partic-
ular workers, and so represents their interest in matters where theiem-
ployrnent position or welfare may be discussed or negotiated, Sir. 1çee
this as an educational and transitional stage, Sir, in contrast to an
irresponsiblc aiid revolutionary approach which the authorities might
feel, on the basisof experience in similar circumstanceç elsewhere, they
could not subscribe to.
JZr.GROSS:\Vil1you tell the Court, please, to whom you were referring
when you used the expression "these people"?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, 1 am referring to the rnembers of non-White popula-
tion groups that are, according to my mind as ari econornist, at a rnuch
lower stage of economic development. They face quite different prohlems
of economic development, and, therefore, require quite a differerit policy
approach from the members of the imite groups, Sir.
&Ir.GROSS 1:understand you to Say, Sir, if 1 may extract the nugget
from Four response, that by "these people" you are referring to the non-
White members of groups-you have used both "members" and
"groups". Could you answer the question this way, perhaps? Hy "these
people" did you rnean non-\nites in South IVest Africa?
hfr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
Nr. GROSS:Thank you. Now, when you referred in your testirnony
to one of the disadvantages of trade union organization and collective
bargaining, you referred,if 1am correct, to repercussions the claims may
have upon others. Would you explain to the Court what you meant by
that, Sir?
Afr.KROGH S:ir, the extent to which you can claim a larger share of
the cake that is baked every year can be at the expense of the share that
goes to other contributors in baking the cake. But, most important of
al1is, that it might alsobe nt the expense of the size of the cake, Sir, in
which case everybody suffers, including those who are represented by this
econornic group in question.
Mr. GROÇÇ: 1sthe Court to understand that by the refusa1 to permit
Natives to engage in collective bargaining, or to register trade unions
composed of Natives for conciliation purposes, one of the purposes is to
reduce their capacity to exert pressure to get an increased share of the
cake-to use your expression?
Mr. KROGH O:n the contrary, Sir,it is not to decrease the size of the
cake.
Mr. G~oss: 1 am not talking about the size of the cake, Sir. 1 am WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I43
talking about the share of the cake, as distinguished, leus say for the
moment, from the size thereof.
&Ir.KROGH : O,Sir, 1do not think thatthe purpose of it is in any way
related tothe idea that these people arein fact, withheld from obtaining
highcr living standards or better working conclitions. On the contrary,
Sir, thereisenough evidence to make me quite happy asan economist to
Say that t.heir employment conditions, and, iiifact, their wages have
increased considerably over any length of period during which this may
reasonably be expected to happen.
There is no doubt, in my mind, that they have shared substantially
accordi~igto the results, and these indicate to me tliat the purpisnot,
in any way, to withhold any share from the income or product that is
gerlerated annually in the Territory,Sir.
&Ir.CROSSX : the southern sector, which is what Iam addressing my
question to at this time-who makes the decision whether or not the non-
White is receiving a just share of the cake?
Mr. KROGH :ir, the type of economy that you have in South West
Africa, and also in South Africa for that matter, is an economy that
operates through the price mechanism. This means that first and fore-
most the share of your contribution to what 1 cal1the national income,
and to which I referred as the cake baked annuaiiy, is primanly deter-
mined through the price mechanism. But as we know, in al1 economies,
even in highly developed economies, for the sake of social fairness or
justice, it 1s the responsibility of the particular governing body of the
territory i:o interfere in the price mechanism, to lay down minimum
wages, to sec to it that there are different formç of transfeof income
from one group to another, unfortunately-1 miist sayas an economist-
often forliurely political purposes, Sir. B1thave to take thisinto con-
sideration; 1 have to acccpt this in the interest of social welfare and of
pursuing other worthy objectives, that is other than just allowing the
free working of the price mechanisrn. Sir, this is also the case in South
West Africa, but wages are here first and primarily decided by the price
mechanisrn. To this 1want to add, however, and I am sure of this as an
economist, that many of the wages received by non-Imite workers mho,
as we are tliscussing now, are not permitted to register their trade unions,
are higher than those that would come about normally through the price
mechanism. Isny this mainly for the very simple reason, Sir, that the
supply of this type of worker is available in very large numbernot only
in South Wcst Africa but they come, in fact, to seek work in the Territory
from areas beyond South West Africa. The same is true, as you may very
well kno~v,in the case of Soiith AfricaIfthese people were to negotiate
a wage purely in a system of free enterprise and where the price mecha-
niçm would decide what value is to be piaced upon their services, then 1
am sure, Sir, it would be considerably lower than that which they are
enjoying at the moment. 1 say this as an economist, Sir.
Mr. GROSS W: ith your permission,&Ir. President, 1 should Iike to go
back now over this last question and break iiito componcnts and if 1
misunderstood you, please correct me. My question was-who makes the
decision asto the justice of a shsre?
Mr. KROGH T:his is primarily decided by the price mechanism sup-
plemented, Sir, by the authorities responsible for the administration and
developmi:nt of the 'I'erritory.
Mr. GROSS :OW,in the event of a dispute between employees and144 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
employer, 1 am talking about private enterprise in the modern or ex-
change sector, regarding wages let us Say, who makes the decision as to
the resolution of that dispute?
RIr.KRQCH:In order to resolve a dispute, because 1take it the question
refers to resolving a labour dispute, employers and a representative from
the administration, that is of thegoverning body of the territory, decide,
and he represents, in Eactthe interests of the workers, non-White workers
in this respect. They try and resolve this particular dispute, taking in
consideration such factors as the ability to pay of the particular em-
ployer~; what the repercussions would be in terms of ernpioymcnt;
whether it might put other people out of employment; whether it might
force ...
Xr. GROSS:1 was not asking the factors that entered into it, if the
President permits me to interrupt to stick to the point.
;\IrKROGH Ifthey cannot resolve this dispute, it may bc taken fur-
ther to the Minister ofLabour who eventually gives a judgment in the
interest of the community as a whole, Sir.
&Ir.GROÇS:SOthat the decision is made by a Government represen-
tative either in the first instance or on appeal, so to speak?
&Ir.KROGH:An agent representing the interests of the workers, Sir.
hfr.G~oss: The agent isa government official, is he?
Rlr.KROGH: Correct, fie ia civil servant.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, when you referred then in your carlier response
to my question, to socialjustice aa responsibility of the governing body,
were you intending to refcr to the exercise by the government, through
the civil service, of the authority to determine wage rates in the eventof
a dispute?
RIr.KROGHI:f wage rates isthe essence of the dispute . ..
Jlr.CROSS:1still rnean the case by hypotheçis that thisis the dispute-
yes.
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir. Then of course somebody must determine ...
Nr. GROSS:iell, Sir, 1 did not want to suggest otherwise.
Air.KROGH: Sir, yes, the authority responsible for the administration
and development of the Territory is the particular body that mould
eventually have to decide what is in the interest of social justice in the
Territory.
Mr. GROSS:Now, the Government, 1 take it these words mean that
the Governrnent decides the dispute-that iswhat your words corne to,
isn't it, Sir?
hlr. KROGH:In the last analysis, yes.
Xr. GROSS: Now, what participation in the Governmcnt, if any, do
the non-White labourers have?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, they have no participation in the government of tlie
White area where the modern economy operates. In other words, they
are in that respect not representcd politically in the adrniiiistration of
the White sector of the southern part ofSouth West Africa.
Mr. G~oss: \Ve are talking about the southern sector.
Mr. KROGR:That is correct, Sir.
hlr. G~oss: Now therefore, is itnot correct to interpret and that the
only interpretation the Court can place on 57ourtestimony IS that the
decision, with respect to a wage dispute, is made by a government,
through an official, inhich the employees have no participation-IS this
a correct formulation of your tcstimony? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I45
Mr. KR~GH:This is correct but it does not net:essarily follow that their
interests are not in fact taken into account or . .
Mr. GRCISS : am not suggesting what follows, Sir.
Mr. KROGH :3ut1 take it, Sir, that you want me to admit implicitly
that this possibility is the one that.1, in fa...
Mr. GROSS: Mr. President, 1 have forborne from objection. I would
not wish the witness to impute motives to my questions, 1 would-ap-
preciate, Sir, Mr. President, if the witness woiild answer my questions
responsively-if my questions are at fault I apologize.
Te PRIISIDENT 1:think that a witness ougl-it to be more responsive
to a question which admits of an answer directly one way or the other,
Dr. Krogh. Sometimes the questions themseIve; rather lead the witness
to engage in the long discussion which he does; Mr. Gross. On this
occasion 1 think you could have given a more responsive answer, Doctor.
hlr. KROGH:Yes, Sir. Sorry, Sir.
Rlr. GR~SS: 1 have not been impertinent and 1 wish to assure the
Court andthe witness 1 have not before objectetl because 1have felt that
my fault was largely involved but, in this case, 1 hoped, and perhaps 1
hope in others, a short responsive reply could be generated.
The PRESIDENT1 :think possibly the witness did think that it waç
implicit iri your question-although 1 did nc~t-and that the Court
would be asked to draw the inference. The fact is that the evidence has
already been established; it is on the record.
Mr. GRUSS:Yes, Sir. And now 1am going to ask the witness, as an
expert, as an economist, whether the existence of this situation gives to
the employees a fair or substantial voice in the determination of their
own wage levelç?
Mr. KRCIGHY : es, to the extent that they can form Iabour unions and
communicate their feelings, and represent their dissatisfaction, or ob-
jections, and they are in fact allowed toform trade unions in the Terri-
tory. Furtliermore, thereis rnachinery to communicate with them. It iç
not that they areshut out, Sir, not having a view or not being allowed to
express a view, or their particulardemands, or their particular interests
in such a riegotiation.
The PRESIDENT:Could you tell the Court what kind of an official
represents them in the negotiations?
Mr. KRCIGHH : eis calleda labour inspector, Sir, who is a government
official,specially appointed to represent tht: Government in these
particular negotiations or where labour disputes arise.
Rlr. GROSS:Would your answer to rny question be different if you are
reminded, Sir, that there are no Native trade unions in South West
Africa?
hlr. KROGH:There are no such trade unions ancl this to me as an
economist, Sir, reflects the lack of interest . . .
The PRIISIDENT:The answer is that there are no trade unions, that
isaII.
Mr. GROSS : The answer is, Sir, that you would not alter your response
to my question on the basis of this fact?
Mr. KRCIGHS :ir, there are, so far as 1know, no non-White trade unions
organized and operating in South West Africa.
Mr. G~oss: Are you aware, Sir, whether there have been in, let US Say,
the Iast te11years, any labour disputewhich have arisen intheTerritory?
hlr.KR~GH: Sir,1 think, as in the case of South Africa, there have14~ SOUTH WEST AFRICA
been very peaceful labour relations in South West Afric1.can recollect,
that within the laçt ten yearsin South West Africa such a dispute leading
to a strike did arise in the case.of the mines, but 1 cangive you the
details of the particular set of circumstances, nor how it was resolved. 1
am sorry but 1cannot remember the details.
Mr.GROSS :he Counter-Memorial, IIIpages 93-94,lists five disputes.
The first is a dispute which occurred at the Lorelei copper mineinthe
district ofLuderitz, where Ovambo labourers went on strike.I am
reading from page 93: "An inspector of Labour investigatedthe matter,
found that both employers and employees had been at fault in certain
respects, and settled the dispute." Are you familiar with the circum-
stances of that dispute, Sir?
Mr. KROGH: No, Sir, it must have been a very minor one becausethe
Lorelei mines ...
Mr. GROSS D:O YOU know whether it was minor or major, Sir, as a
matter of your knowledge?
hlr. KROGH: Yes, 1 know that the Lorelei Copper Mining Company
near Luderitz is, economically speaking, really negligibly small in the
mining industry, and in the number they employ.
Mr. GROSS:YOUdo not have any evidence or information which would
contradict the statement in the Counter-Mernorial, III,on page 93,
which I haveread, that there was a strike?
Mr. KROGH: NO, Sir,1 did not study the particular circumstances of
thiç particular dispute.
Mr. GROSS:Another reference, on page 94 of the same volume:
"In 1956 there was one case of a serious labour disturbance
amongst Native labourers atthe Brandberg West Mine. An inspector
ofNative Labour enquired and ascertained that there had been some
dissatisfaction amongst the labourers aa result of wages and con-
ditionsinthe compound. Recommendations to overcome the causes
of dissatisfactionwere made, accepted and irnplemented, with
satisfactory results."
Are you familiar with that "serious labour disturbance amongst Native
labourers"?
Mr. KROGH:The number of labourers involvecl, Sir, would have been
considerably andsubstantiallymore than thosein theLorelei copper mines,
but in fact 1am sure that it was resolved ia very short period of time.
The PRESIDENT :he question was, are you familiar with the dispute?
Mr. KRQGH N:O,1 did not study it.
The PRESIDENT T:hen the answer is no.
Mr. KROGH: NO,Sir.
Mr. GROSS:And one other exarnple to which 1will cal1your attention.
Iwill ask you whether you are familiar with the event1;quote from the
same page:
"A dispute involving contracted extra-territorialand northon
Native labourers at the Ojisondu Mine in the Olcahandja district
towards the end of1956 over the re-introductioofa six-day working
week, was also speedily terminated to everybody's satisfaction by
an inspector of Native Labour."
Are you familiar with the circumstances of that dispute, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:NO,Sir. 1 did not study the particular circumstances. WlTNESSES AND EXPERTS I47
Mr. GROSS: From your knowledge of the situation in the mining
industry, is asix-day working week the practice?
Mr. KROGH S:ir,1 would not know whether that is general practice
throughout the Territory.
Mr. G~ass: Do you know, Sir, whether the referericin the Counter-
Mernorial to an inspector of Native labour would refer to a government
representative? Would the inspector be s government officiai?
Mr. KROGH Ies, Sir, he would be a government official.
Mr. GRC)ÇS :herefore it would be, would itnot, a matter of con-
sideration from the point of view of social justice, the phrase you used
as to establishing the share of the cake, thnt there had been disputes
actually taking place in the Territory? That would be rdevant to the
consideration of thesituation, would itnot, Sir?
Air.KROGH :es, Sir. My opinion, expressed as an economist, was that
these disputes which, as you meiitioned, al1 occurred in relatively small
mines that are not important employers, relatively speaking, of non-
IVhite labour in the Territory considered as a whole. Furthemore, Sir,
these disputes were speedily resolved to the satisfaction of a1did not
regard them as any serious labour disputes iri the Territory from an
economic viewpoint during the past ...
The PRESIDEST:Ho~v rnany disputes have thi:re been, ;\Ir. Gross, over
the last ten years?
Mr.GROSS :here are five set forth in the Counter-Mernorial, Sir, and
the, Ithink, most serious wûs undoubtedly, waç it not, Sir,the one to
which 1 have not referred, the Tsumeb-you referred 1 believe to the
Tsumeb strike or stoppage in your testimony, Sir. Perhaps inresponse
to the President's question, orif1 may, with respect, put it amy own,
Sir, would you state, if you havc not done so,when that dispute took
place and how many employees were involved?
Air. KROGH N:o, Sir, do not know the exact date but 1 said that1
could recall sucha dispute, and that this was for me, asan economist,
an incident which 1 thought worth mentioning as an example of where
such a labour dispute had occurred, because tlie number involved was
considerable, inview of the fact that the mining industry in Tsumeb in
fact represents a major part from the point of view of production and
employment of non-\Vhite labourers in the Territory. That 1s why I
mentioned that as an example: 1 thought the others were rather in-
significant,speaking generallp.
blr.G~oss :In the document, which is in therecord ofthese proceed-
ings, which is a document of the United Nations Ceneral Assembly,
document A/5446, Addendum z, 26 July 1963, cited at IV, page 605,
there is the following brief descriptiof the Tsumeb strike by contract
labour. lshallread itto you, Dr. Krogh, and perhaps itmay refresh your
recollection concerning the matter:
"The lnrgest scale single incideof the arrests and convictionpf
African labourers in the territory in recr:nt years took place m
Decen~ber 1962, following strike actiby Ovarnbo contract workers
ata new copper-smelting plant at Tsumeb. A totalof 105 Ovambo
yorkers were convicted of rcfusing to carry out instructions:61
were sentenced to a fine of ro Rand or 3days'imprisonment, under
the Master and Servants Proclamation, and 44, charged with the
same offence under other labour legislation, were sentenced to
50davs' imprisonment uithout option of fine.Their labour contracts SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
148
were cancelled and al1 were to be repatriated to Ovamboland after
serving their tems. The service contracts of24 others who did not
appear inCourt were also cancclled and they were returned tOvam-
boland. It was also reported that a group of new recruits, who had
refused to start work, would probably besent back to Ovamboland."
That is from page 12 of the document which 1 have cited, which is in the
documentation in these proceedings.
Do you evaluate this, ifyou have not already done so, as a serious
incident?
Mr. KROGHS :ir, 1 mentioned it, yes, as one dispute that had occurred
as far asI could recollect during the last ten yeaBut 1 must say that
1 do not know whether that factual situation is completely correct. 1
cannot, in fact, give evidence to that effect1am not in any way em-
ployed by the Government, nor do 1represent any labour organization.
I am an independent student of the Territory, but 1 cannot vouch for
those particulars as reported there, outside South Africa, or South \Vest
Africa, by other parties.
Mr. MULLER:hlr. President, 1 think in fairness to the witness my
learned friend should leave the particulars of this particular dispuas
set forth intheCounter-Mernorial. He has referred to other dispute...
Air.GROSS hlr. President, with respect, Sir, if counsel ~vishbring
up testimony and re-direct, I would, with respect, Sir, suggest that we
cannot follow that procedure.
The PRESIDEN T:ell 1must first hear1 think,Alr.Muller, >Ir. Gross.
You were putting to the witness a statement of a dispute, and if it was
not a cornplete statement of the dispute then perhaps a wrong impression
was at the present moment conveyed to the Court. 1 do not suggest at
al1that it is not, bu1would like to hear what Mr. Muller has got to Say.
Mr. MULLER: 1 would only liketo read the short description of this
particular dispute as set forth in the Counter-Mernorial, which in fact
has been admitted by the Applicants:
--
"Another dispute arose in rg54 at Tsurneb as a result of Police
investigations regarding possession by Ovambo workers of illicit
liquor. .."
&Zr.G~oss: Nr. President, thisisn different dispute that counsel is
referring to.
The PRESIDENT: 1s it a different dispute?
Mr. GROSSI: am referring to the dispute 19621 . understood counsel
to refer to the dispute o1954.
The PRESIDENT M r. Gross made it quite clear that it was the dispute
of 1962, Mr. Jluller.
Mr. MULLER:1 am afraid that that is the case but thisis one of the
disputes dealt with arnongst thefive to whichmy learned friend referred
earlier.
The PRESIDENT ?!Jewill deal with one dispute ai a time.
Mr. GROSS : ir1 readily admit that there have been other disputesat
Tsumeb, if that is the point learned counsel wishes to inject into the
record at this point.
The PRESIDENT :es, Mr. Gross, please continue.
Mr. GROSS:Now, 1 would likc to invite your attention, Sir, to the
International Labour Organisation resolutions with respect to the
practice and policy in South Africa and South West Africa. Are YOU WlTNESSES AIU'DEXPERTS 149
familiar, Sir, with the function and structure of the International Labour
Organisation?
Mr. KBOGH:As an economist, 1 am, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Are you aware, Sir,that in 1964 a cornmittee on freeclom of
association was set up by the governing body of the International Labour
Organisation?
Mr. KROGH: No, Sir. 1 do not know the details about when certain
bodies or agencies were in fact formed in the International Labour
Organisation.
Mr. G~oss: The undisputed fact that there was such a body set up
appears from the Keply of the Applicants, IV, page 423. Turning your
attention to page 423 of the Reply, I should liketo read a very briei
excerpt from the proceedings of that Committee.
"The Committee on Freedom of Association of the Governing
Body of the International Labour Organisation has concluded, with
the approval of the Governing Body, that provisions of law in-
volving :
'...discrimination against African workers (with respect to the
right to organize) (are) . . . inconsistent with the principles that
workers without distinction whatsoever should have the right
to establish and, subject only to the rules of the organisation
concerned, to join organizations of their own choosing without
previous authorization and that al1 workers' organizations
should enjoy the right of collective bargaining.'"
This was, 1 may Say, Sir, specifically with reference to the policy in
South Africa. For the sake of clarity, since you have referred, as have
other witnesses, to policies in South Africa, would you very briefly, if
possible,explain any essentialdistinctions there are between the policies
applied in South Africa and in South West Africa concerning the rights
of non-Whites to engage in collective bargaining?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, Iam not an expert on the resolutions or standards of
the 1ntern;litional Labour Organisation, and to what extent particular
countries do in fact adhere to them or to what extent they are obliged
to do so.
1 do know, however, that most of the stantlards laid down by the
Internatiorial Labour Organisation are increasingly being admitted by
experts in the field.
Mr. GROSS: Mr. President, might 1 ask the witness to respond to my
question ?
The PRESIDENT:The question is, witncss, whether you know of any
circumstances which in relation to South West Africa distinguish the
conditions of labour from those appertaining in South Africa. Al1 that
you have had put to you is a resolution passecl. You are not asked to
comment on the value of that resolution or wl-iether there isany sub-
stance in the resolution. Itissimply a resolution, so if you have that in
mind, would you answer the question? Perhaps you would reframe your
question, Rlr. Gt-oss, so that hewiIl know preciseiy what it is you are
asking him?
Mr. GROSS: Yes, Sir. What policies, if any, with respect to the deriial
or limitations upon the right of non-Whites to engage in collective
bargaining in South West Africa are applied likewise in the Republic of
South Africa?150 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. KROGH: Sir, 1 know that in the Republic of South Africa non-
White labour unions are not in fact regiçteredbut, similarlyas in South
West Africa, they are free to organize. The labour organization rnachinery
in South Africa ismuch more advancedin this respect than it is in South
West Africa.There are regional labour boards organized by the author-
ities in the particular areas where there are non-White workers and these
boards are consulted and advise the particular authority of their labour
conditions and grievances in particular trades. These labour boards do
not, as far asI know, exist in the case of South West Africa, but for all
practical purposes, labour-non-White workers-is represented in the
samc way. They are not, in fact, registered as official labour unions in
South West Africa or in South Africa, Sir.
Mr. G~oss; 1s the registration of the union, either in Southor South
West, Africa, an essential condition to the right of that union to engage
in collective bargaining?
Mr.KROGHI: am notaware of thelegal implications, but as an econo-
mist, 1 have always interpreted this to mean that if you strike and you
are not a recognized, officia1union then such a strike would be interpreted
as an iIlegal actSir. ..
Mr. GROSS :re you aware also, Sir, of the significance of registration
with respect to the right to engage in collective bargaining?
Mr. KROGH: I am not quite acquainted with the wording of this
legislation butI think, obviously, that if it is illegtostrike, then this
means cannot be used by trade unions if the dispute inot resolved or the
negotiation cannot proceed any further.
The PRESIDENT In one case it is legal if registered and in the other
case you Say it is illegal. 1sthat the position? In the case afregistered
union it is legal to strike if negotiations bredown?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
The PRESIDENT :n the other case,itisan iiiegal act. That is your
view?
Mr. KROGH :his is how 1, as an economist, always understood this,
Sir.
blr. G~oss: Sir,with respect, 1 was referring to an additional point,
which perhaps my question, 1 am afraid, did not make clear. That is
the right of collective bargaining as distinguished from the right of strike.
1s a non-registered union recognized by employers for collective bar-
gaining?
Mr. KROGH :ir,I would Say that they do indeed collectively negotiate
their wishes and their interests through the labour machinery that1 have
indicated.They therefore, in so far asthere are non-White labour unions,
pursue, indicate and formulate their interests collectively and this is
negotiated through the administrative machinery that 1 have mentioned
earlier.But I could very well, as an economist, say that if they are not
given the weapon to strike, then this would mean thatthereis a limitation
or restriction placed on the extent to which they can, in fact, demandor
obtain coIlectively that which they would have put forward as their
collective demands, Sir.
Mr. GROSS :ir, you referred, in your response, to the phrase-you
used the phrase, if 1 understood you correctly from my notes-"collec-
tively negotiate" through the procedure which you have described. 1s
that substantially your testimony, Sir?
Mr. KROGH :es, trade unions negotiate collectively. The purpose of WITNESSES AND EXPERTS =SI
forming a union or an organization is to meet thri party on the other side
of the market collectively instead of doing this individually as workers.
This is what 1mean by collective bargaining.
Mr. GROSS:Would you please respond to my question if 1 attempted
to restate it or clarify it? Did you, in your testirnony, refer, to use the
phrase substantially, "collectiveIy negotiate" through the procedures
which you have described?Did you use that phrase or some substantially
similar phrase, in yourtestimony, do you recall?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir, to the extent that there are non-White labour
unions, Sir.
Mr. CROSS: Now, Sir, when 1 address this question to you,1 do so in
your capacity as an economist. 1s it not contradictory to refer to col-
lective negotiation on the one hand and adjustment of disputesthrough
the decisiori of a government authority on the other hand in the absence
of a trade union?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, it is the dutyof the particrilar labour inspector to
take into consideration on the one hand the wishes and the demands of
the workerj and to determine, whether they are reasonable, just, or in
the economic interests ofthe particular parties concerned or the country
as a whoIe. Similarly, he must, in order to resolve a dispute, or to com-
municate the wishes of the other, take into consideration, on the other
hand, the position of the employers. To the extent that he in fact, an1
take it that it is his duty tdo so, does not make hirnself aware of the
wishes of tfie particular workersnd if theris anon-Whitelabour union,
obviously they would have a representative that he could consult, or
who would consult him or advise him on this. To the extent that there
are not anji non-White labour unions, obviously you could not Say that
their wishes are comrnunicated to him collectively, or by a representative
because thi:y would not be organized collectively, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: And therefore-to clarify now the realistic situation-
would it not be pertinent to place into the record again the undisputed
fact that there are no Native trade unions in South West Africa?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir, there are no non-bvhite trade unions in South
West Africa and there is no limitation on their being formed.
Mr. GROSS : nd there is no what, Sir?
Mr. KROGH: There is no limitation or restriction on non-White trade
unions' being formed or coming about.
Mr. GROSS:Tliey do not have any power to negotiate because they
are denied the right to register. 1s that a correct statement, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, they are denied the right to use the weapons that
are usually used by labour unions, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Now, with respect then, tothe factual situation, that there
are no Native trade unions, can it be said, as an economist, that there is
no colIective negotiation or collective bargaining available to the non-
White employees in the Territory? 1sthat a correct statement of the fact,
realistically, from the economic point of view? Can you answer that
question yes or no?
Mr. KROCH: Sir, the fact that there are no non-White labour unions in
the Territory reflectç to me, as an economist, that there is no collective
bargaining in this particular case.
Mr. GROSS:As an economist, would you Say that the failure of a
collective bargaiiling machinery has any economic consequence upon the
welfare in inaterial terms of the individuals, the non-White labourer?I52 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. KROGH:ASan econornist 1 must give a value judgment here, and
1 have done this inmy previous testimony. 1 have given you theopinion
that 1 think that the material welfare of the non-White workers in so
far as they earn wages in the modern sector is for al1 practical purposes
at a level, and improving at a rate that could not have been negotiated
or attained in fact had there been trnde unions ofthe type or kind, as 1
have tried to indicate, which operate in the rest of Alrica.
Mr. GROSS:1s it your staternent to the Court, as an economist whose
testimony is directed to the necessity for separate development in the
Territory, that had there bcen trade unionsin existence they would have
demanded lower wages or more working hours-is that the purport of
your testimony, sir?
Mr. KROGH:The purpose of any labour organization or union is to
serve the particular interests of its members first and forernost. But
because there are no non-White trade unions in South West Africa it
does not necessarily follow that the interests of such workers are not in
fact taken into consideration or well looked after.
The PRESIDENT T:hat is not the question that was put to you, witness.
The question put to you is: if there were registered trade unions, able to
be organized by the non-White workers, then do you Say that they would
have made claims less or greatcr than those arranged under the system
which presently operates?
hlr. KROGH:Sir, my answer, based on experience elsewhere under
similar conditions, would be yes,1think they would in fact have clsimed
substantially and considerably larger amounts.
The PRESIDENT:Larger. It would be rather unusual for a trade union
to claim less, wouldit not?
hlr. KROGH: Quite so, Sir.
hIr. GROSS:Thence, in the light of that response, in which 1understand
you said they would, as normally would be expected, make larger de-
mands rather than smalier demands . . .
Mr. KROGHY : es,as we al1do.
Mr. GROSS:UTouldyou then clarify your response to my question,in
which you said, as 1understood you, that in your expert view, had trade
unions existed with authority and force to bargain, conditions would
have been worse rather than better?
&Ir. KROGH:I would say yes, 1think they wouId have been worse.
Mr. GROSS: \Vil! you please explain on what basis you form that
judgment ?
Mr. KROGH: It içnot alwayç appreciated to what extent trade unions
can in fact operate effectively-improve their workers'share ofthe cake
that is baked annually-not even in highly industrialized economies.
Increasing studies, one recently on Amenca covering a period from the
previous century tothe present,indicate that there has over a longperiod
been no evidence to show that the whole trade union movement has in
fact improved the share of the worker in the econorny, such as that in
America. The idea of forming a labour union is of course to organize
first and foremost in thenterest of the welfare or income of its particular
members, irrespective usually of what the repercussions of their clairns
would be on other members of the economy or whether these would be
in the interest of the economy as a whole. 1can very well imagine that
certain workers can make unreasonable demands from their side (and 1
must admit that "reasonable" is an economic term referring to the ability WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
153
to pay, or not to put other people out of work)-that they can in fact
demand much higher wages and thereby increase their relative share of
the total cake, but at the same time reduce tlieir absolute share as a
reçult of the effect their demands may have on the absolute çize of the
cake. This ver brief background explanation gives the main reason for
the limited e fict, if any, such organizations can in fact have on im-
proving thi:ir workers' position. Secondly, there is the fact that the non-
White menibers of thelabour force in South West Africa are, to a large
extent, not familiar with the econornic principles underlying these
considerations that 1have tried to sketch very briefly ia rather popular
way. Their demands might very well be based on thc sirnplc idea that
there iç plenty where this cornes from, so 1 can just keep on asking, or
just keep on turning open the tap. This is quite a normal attitude for
people who have no or little appreciation of the responsibility that rests
upon them in respect of wage claims and the repercussions these may
have on other groups or on the economy as a whole. In this way it is
quite likely that the very position which they tried to improve in fact
deterioratea, andthey are left worse off than when they proceeded in this
direction.
hIr. GROSS :re you sufficientlp well acquainted as an economist with
the general workings of collective bargaining to express an opinion to
the honourable Court as to whether or not there is any better method of
educating workers in the arts and sciences of coIlective bargaining than
by practising it ? . -
hlr.KROGH: As 1 explained earlier on tliis morning, there is the op-
portunity first to learn how to administer a uni011before you can use this
instrument to negotiate and to use it as an instrument or organization to
stake your claim, other than that that is determined by the ordinary
market forces. Iti the very article which1 quotcd earlier on-if anyone
would care to look at that-the main shortcomings and disadvantages
were found to be that labour unions existedonly in name while corruption
in their adrninist~atiowas the rulein tropical Africa-I did notwant to
quote the many examples given by expcrt outçide observers. The firçt
problem is purely one of administration and management, let alone
rnoving from that position to one of negotiating responsiblj~ iamodern
economy. In South West Africa the rnachinery iç there, the opportunity
is given first to learn how to adtninister, organizand consovdate your
position as a labour organization, and this opportunity existç in the
Terntory.
&Ir.G~oss: In what form doeç it exist, Sir, and where?
Mr. KROGH : Othe extcnt that these people are in factnot restricted
or prohibiteci in any way from forming laboiir organizations in the
Territory, they are free to do so; and in so faas the level of education
and literacv increases over time-a slow procesç in any development
plan or approach.
The PRESIDEXT C ould 1just put sornething to the witness, Mr. Groçs,
if I may interrupt you? You seem to proceed upon the basis that if
workers are entitled under the law of any particular country to form
thernselves into registered trade unions, the only piirpose oso doing is
to engage in collective bargaining, that is to Say where the trade union
deals directly with the employer and isable totract from it or demand by
virtue of tlie clairn they put forward the best bnrgain they can get, un-
affected by any interference,by and large, of a government. But are youI54 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
aware of other systems in the world, in modern industrialized countries,
where there is no such thing as collective bargaining in that sense, where
awards are made by third parties, and they cannot be altered-although
the unions negotiate direct withthe employer-xcept under the control
of arbitration judges or officiais in general community interests, for
example, to prevent inflation and having regard to the justice ofde-
mands of various sections of the community? Collective bargaining is not
the only system. Are you aware of those other systems?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir, but 1have not made a study of them-1 am
aware of them in my general knowledge as an economist.
Mr. GROSS:May 1revert to the question of collective bargaining in the
modern economic sector in South West Africa, and ask you what func-
tions other than collective bargaining a Native trade union would
normally engage in, if it existed?
hlr. KROGH I:am terribly sorry,I did not get the last partof that
question.
Mr. G~oss: Would you explain what functions, if any, other than
collective bargaining, a Nativetrade union in the economic sectorof the
Territory would engage in; what other function would there be for such
a union, ifitexiçted? 1am just asking for your expert opinion.
Mr. KROGH: 1think that the most important aspect £rom an econo-
mist's viewpoint, and 1 am not an economist in labour unionism as such,
wouId be to look after the employment conditions, the wages paid, the
hours of work, the housing conditions, the entry into that particular
trade of other rnembers, and to look generally to the welfare of the
members of that particular union. 1cannot quite see what you aregetting
at, but 1 would imagine those would be al1 factors that can be sirnply
reduced to saying "looking after the material welfare of those particular
worlrers in particular trades".
Mr. GROSS:And by "looking after" 1 take it you mean exercising
collective power to achieve demands?
Mr. RROGH: If they can exercise this in a responsible way, yes.
Mr. GROSS: I did not ask that, Sir;1 asked whether the function of a
trade union would be to exercise collective power to achieve demands.
Mr. KROGH T:his would be its purpose.
Mr. GROSS:That would be its purpose. So that the absence ofcollective
power could affect the standard of wage, hour or working conditions in
the entcrprise,couId it not, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:Theoretically it could affect it.
Mr. GROSS:And is the normal method of looking after the welfare of
the members of the organization to present collective demands or gnev-
ances to the em loyer?
Mr. Knocrt: {ir, this isapractice that is of recent migin even in the
highly industrialized countries and is normal in that sense. I should
imagine there couid be exceptions-probably for very good reasons-but
1 do not quite know or cannot recollect these now. But you must re-
member, Sir, that the labour union movement is something of recent
historical origin in the economic development even of highly industrial-
ized countries. Therefore,only in that sense isitnormal.
Mr. GROSS : Wouid there be apy alternative other than the presentation
of a petition to the governing authority?
Mr. KROGH Y:es, Sir1 wouId Say the type of machinery that is under
discussion here is an alternative to look after the material interests of WITNESSES SND EXPERTS 15.5
those particuIar workers. The administrative ancl labour machinery that
is available, used and, in fact, works satisfactorily frorn an economiçt's
viewpoint hecause it seems to resolve the differerit disputes that do arise
while the material positions of these people are irnproving continually
seen from an objective, economic viewpoint. So 1 would say that there
are ottier ways of arriving at this particular objective. The onementioned
by you and by me ismuch better described, Sir, 1takeit, in some of the
documents before this Court.
Mr. GROSSA : re the alternatives,if 1 can perietrate through to your
response correctly and please let me know if I am wrong, either the
exercise of collective power through collective bargaining on the one
hand, or petition to or submission to governmental decisions and resolu-
tion of disputes on the other? 1ita fair interpretation ol your testirnony
that those are thetwo alternatives fundamentally, or are there others?
Mr. KROGH Sir,I could very well imagine that there are other forms
and means where you have neither of the two, but I cannot give you
examples at the moment. These are not the only forms-1 used them by
way of example, Sir, because you were referring to "normal" as that
which you find in the highly industrialized countries.
hlr.G~oss: And you think these would be the normal alternatives?
Mr. KROGH: In a highly industrialized country.
Mr. G~oss: In the modern sector of the economy in South West Alrica?
llr.KROGH S:ireven in themodern White sectorin South West Africa
trade unions arnong White workers were only inçtituted after 1950, so
it is absolutely abnormal, even in the modern economy among White
workers in the case of South West Africa hiçtorically, Sir.
Mr. GROSÇ: Just for the sake of clarifying this point, is tlie relative
recency of the White trade unions attributable to the rate of economic
developmerit in the Temtory, or are there factors which account for it
of another sort?
Mc.KROI;HN : O,Sir.1 think that the effective and responsible use of
the trade union movement bears a correlation, or is associated, generally
speaking, with the stage of economic development.
RlrGROSS Y:ou mean that the White employees were not economically
developed sufficiently fo have trade unions? Do I understand your
response?
Mr. KROGH1 :would Say, Sir, that you must not think of South West
llfrica as a territory that is highly industrialized.Thare, Sir, not very
many jobs outside of agriculture. 1 think agriculture alone employs, by
way of wage earning, about 40 per cent. of al1non-White ivage-earners.
There are iew White urage-earners relatively to the reçt of the White
population in South West Africa. They are mostly independent farmers
and business people. These people are not largely alabour force working
for wages or salaries, but independent entrepreneurs operating in the
Territory. Therefore,I could very well understa~id, Sir, that the interest
of the White workers only assumed proportions worth organizing at this
late stage in the economic development of the modern sector of the
economy in the çouthern part of South West Africa, and especially as a
result oftheir urbanization.It must not be forgotten, Sir, that urbaniza-
tion in South West Africa increased considerably oniy from before the
Second World War to the present day. It was, in fact, a purely rural
economy before 1938-193 b9ut with urbanization more opportunities for
employment as wage-eamers other than in the rural areas were created.15~ SOUTH WEST AFRICA
These are the major explanations of why IVhite unions have corne to the
fore at such alate stage,Sir.
Mr.G~oss: Could your response perhaps fairly be boiled down to one
sentence, Sir, thatthe reason there have not been imite labour organiza-
tions until recently is that, until recently, there have not been many
White labourers at work in South West Africa? 1s that a correct version
of your testimony, Sir?
Mr. KROGH Iwould say SO,yes. Preference has always been given, Sir,
to employment of non-llrhite members in South West Africa. This, Sir,
is also policy with regard to the economy of South Africa ...
Mr. G~oss: If you regard this as responsive, subject to the wishes of
the honourable President, 1 would like to ask further questions. Ifyou
regard what you were saying as reçponsive: Mr. President, 1 thought 1
had had an answer to my question.
The PRESIDEXT :ut another question, then, Mr. Gross.
>Ir.G~oss: You have testified, Sir, that supplies of this type of worker
are available in very large numbers. This was one of the expressionsyou
used in your testimony-do you recall having made such a statement?
Mr. I~ROGH Ires, Sir, and the word "type" has no reflection on ...
hIr.G~oss: 1am not asking you, Sir, to explain it.Ifyou wiIl forgive
me, 1 asked whether 1 had fairly characterized the statement. 1 would
like, if you permit me, to ask a question or two about that. 1 was not
implying that you were using derogatory Ianguage. $mat, factually,did
you mean by your words "this type"?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, very briefly in economic terms,1 would Say that the
supply of unskilled labour in Africa is very elastic-that simply means,
Sir, that there are rnany more people of this particular type of labour
than can, in fact, be employed, Sir. That is al1 1meant.
Rlr.GROSS :orry. In other words, is it correct, from the economist's
point of view, that there is a çurplus of non-White labour availabie? 1s
that a correct statement, Sir? Did you answer that yesterday?
Mr. RROGH :1 would not use that terminology, but that is the case, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: 1sit, or is it not, from the economic point of view, there-
fore, a well-established principle that great supply of labour tends to
depress mages?
Mr. KROGH: Quite so, Sir.
Nr. GROSS:When, therefore, you are dealing (1will ask you to advert
to the northern economic sector) would the absence of collective bar-
gaining or machinery for collective negotiationhave any relevance to
the wage or other working condition levels in the face of a surpliis of
available labour?
Mr. KROGH: Yes. 1 would like to explain this very briefly, if the Court
permits me, Sir. The position is that the trade union movement would,
in fact, restrict the number of people that could, in fact, become em-
pIoyed or offer their services-inthis case, excluding other non-Whites-
that will not in fact become employed. This principle of excluding others
when there are not enough jobs to go round iç, in fact, applied indirectly
in the Territory in this sense, Sir, that outside workers entering into the
Territory are given the lowest priority in the labour market. First and
foremost, they start from the non-Ifhite ivorkers that are available in
the Police Zone. They, in fact, get priority and preference, Sir, during
times of unernp1ojment due to depression or to lowering in exports or
prices which reflect back on the economy,reduce its emplojment capacity WITNEÇÇEÇ AXD EXPERTS I57
and econon-iicdevelopment. Then there is asecond point, and that is that
those laboiirers who proceed from the northerii areas, Sir,get second
priorityin the sense that, first you employ those neareçt to you, then
those furthest from you, and then, lastly onljr, do the authorities in
South West Africa permit workers from outside to enter. L
The PREÇIDENT LVhâtis your conclusion from a11that?
Nr. KROGH :he conclusion is that thereis protection with regard to
the interescs ofthose nearest to the money economy against the supply
of this type of labour from the northern territories, which would depress
the wages, working conditions and employment opportunities of those
nearest to the market. Similarly, those outside the Territory would have
a depressive effect on those in the Territory, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: May 1 put one more question? Your reference (1hope
perhaps this could be answered yes or no) to the fact that if labour
unions existed they rnight have the effect ofrestricting the nurnberof
available employees. Did you testify to that effcct, or did you not,Sir?
Mr. KROGH: 1can sec tliat it would be in their interest.
Mr. G~oss: No, Sir.Did you testify tothat effect, or did you notSir?
Mr. KROGH :said that they would, in fact,be inclined ...
Mr. G~oss: Yes, to restrict?
Mr. KROCH:iihether or not there were enoiigh jobs to go round, yes,
Sir.
Bir.GROSÇ: Then, finally, again ~4th thehope ofa yes or no, Sir, then
is itan economic effect of the absence of trade iinions to keep a surplus
labour suppIy airailable?
hlr.KROCH :Sir, there is no interest in keepinany labour surpIus.
Rlr. GROSS:1s this a practical economic effect in terms of your earlier
response which you have just confirmed?
The PRESIDENT1 :swhat a practical economic effect?
Mr. GROSS:1am sorry, 1thoiight the witness understood my question.
1s the economic consequence of the absence oftrade unions under these
circurnstances a inethod, or does it have the effecofmaking available a
surplus labour supply? End of question, Sir. Gin you answer that yes
or no?
Nr. KROGH : O, not necessarily, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Not ~iecesçarily, Sir. May 1 pursiie this on Monday, Sir,
with your permission?
The PRESIDENTP :erhaps on Monday the witness would seek ta make
his responses as briefaç possible. Thisisnot any criticism of you at all,
Doctor. Your answers are very important, and many cannot be given in
unqualified terms. The Court understands that. Rut if you are able to
make them. more briefly than you have, it willbe appreciated by the
Court. And, if 1may Say so, Mr. Gross, further tirne would be saved if the
witness is not asked too often, in general terms, what he thinks about a
certain matter or to comment upon something in general; since that
simply widens thearea of disputation and so takes up a great deaof tirne.
[Public hearingof 27 Septmber 19651
The PRESIDENT T:he hearing is resumed. Air.Gross.
&Ir. GROSS:Mr. Preside~it, at the conclusion of the session on 24 Sep-
tember, on this page, szipra, the u-itnesshad 1 think begun to answer
the followirig question :158 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"1s the economicconsequence of the absence of trade unions under
these circun~stances a method, or does it have the effect of making
availablea surplus labour suyply?"
"Rlr. KROCH:NO,not necessarily, Sir",
at which point, Mr. President, you graciously said that we could continue
at that point today, and 1do so, Sir. BIr. Krogh, have you finished your
answer to the question, or do you wish to, if you have not?
Mr. KROGU:Sir, 1 believe that the answer to that question is that the
presence of non-White trade unions operating effectively in the Temtory
codd have an effect of causing conditions of un- or under-employrnent.
1 might, if1 am allowed to, just very briefly add thatitmust be clear to
me before I answer that question what exactly is understood by the term
"surplus labour", because this torny mind would exist whether you have
such trade union organizations or not. 1 must have claritp on what
exactly is meant by "surplus labour"; if it is meant that this is labour
that becomes unemployed as the result of the presence or absence of such
trade unions, then 1 should like to limit rnyself to that concept of the
term. On the other hand, used in a general way I can assure you that
surplus labour would exist irrespective of the presence or absence ofuch
trade unions on a large scale in the Territory.
The PRESIDENT1 :think Mr. Gross' question was rather limited, \vas
it not, hlr. Gross, as the witness suggested?
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Mr. President; now, if Imay follow your answer up
with .. .
The PRESIDENT:Could the witness, Mr. Gross, give his answer to the
question as Iimited by you? Do you understand, witness?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir, in the limited sense of the word.
The PRESIDENT Ithink that is the answer sought.
Mr. G~oss: Would you remind repeating that sentence-in the limited
sense ofwhat, Sir, with the President's permission?
Alr. KROGH: To the extent that un- or under-emplojment would be
increased or decreased as a result of the presence or absencerespectively
of non-White labour unions in the Territory.
Mr. GROSS:In your response to a question on the same day, that is
at page 156, szrpra, of the verbatim record, you said among other things
as follows:
"The position isthat the trade union movement would, in fact,
restrict the number of people that could, in fact, become employed
or offer their services",
etc.-that is the relevant portion of the testimony. 1s your answer to
rny question differentfrom, or intended to bear any sense different from,
that which appears frorn this excerpt1 have just quoted?
Mr. KROGH: NO,Sir, my answer would not be different. 1can see asan
economist that it may indeed be in their narrow interest to restrict the
supply oflabour becoming available for emploÿment. 1 can understand
asan economist that it would be in the interest of a non-White labour
union to try and restrict the number that could present themselves for
employment, for the simple reason, if you want me to explain that, that
for those that are, asit were, employed or inside the fence, i1 rnay use
that popular term, their employment conditions and prospects would be
adversely affected by the inflow of large numliers of labourers to this
labour market. WITNESSES .4ND EXPERTS 159
Aïr. G~oss: Those economic factors which you have just mentioned
would, would theynot, operate to restrictthe numberof non-Whites that
could in fact become employed or offer their services in the White sector?
Mr. KROGH :The position is that competition irom this surplus labour,
in the general and structural sense of the word, is experienced by non-
White workers in the Police Zone. As an economist I can tell you that
the White and non-White workers in the southern sector are, for al1
practical purpases, non-competing members, groups, or economic units.
The restrictio1 referred toand my answer in that context, was directed
towards the effeçt that such restrictions would liave on non-White wor-
kers at the moment fullyemployed in the southern sector.
Blr.GROSS :hat is what I am refemng to as well. You use the ex-
pression "non-competing groups". Would you be more explicit about the
groups that you had in minci, and where the competition would lic or
does not lie? In the phrase you use, what does the word "groups" mean
there?
Mr. KROGH :roups operating in the labour rnarket. There are, how-
ever, different labour markets, there is not only one labour market. 1
think itmay be misleading to think of the whole of the southernterritory
as one labour market. It is composed of very different labour marketç in
the sense that the supply conditions-the quality and quantity of the
labour available ior particuhr trades or particular jobs are diverse. We
generally and popularly speak in a rnacro-economic sense of the labour
market, but in fact 3s soon as you look at this itismore important to
break it down into its various components, because the çupply and
demand conditions in each of these markets arc different; that is after
al1 why yoii have different wages or emolurnents for clifferent people, or
for different professions or trades.
Mr. Gaoss: Sir, you used the phrase, i1 may get back to my question,
with the President's permission, "non-cornpeting groups", as 1 under-
stood you. Were you referring to non-compcting non-White groups, that
isto say that non-White groups did not compete with each other, or that
non-White groups did not cornpete with Whites-what did yau rnean
by the phrase "non-competing groups"?
hfr. KROGU1 :was using the term in the macro-econornic sense. 1was
trying to tell you, Sir, that the mernbers of the different non-White
groups are, generally speaking and Inrgely so, with few exceptions,
cornpetitive with regard to the members of those particular groups thatI
have mentioned, whereas thcy are not [or al1 practicalpurpases, and
speaking generaliy in a macro-economic sense, compctitive with regard
to the members of the IVhite population graup.
Mr. G~oss: Do you mean-to put it in simple terms, for the Court's
complete uridcrstanding-that the non-LVhiteswhoreside in the southern
sector, the economic sector, are in competition with the non-Whites who
are recruited fro~ntime to time as migrant labour? 1s that themeaning
of your statement, Sir?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, that içwhatI am trying to convey-that the deg~ec
of competition is much more between mernbers of these groups than it
wouId be between members of these non-White population groups on the
one hand and those ofthe White population group on the other. It is a
matter of degree, 1mut admit, but the differencisso largethat Iregard
it as a structuralfeature.
Mr. G~oss: The ançwer to my question, isit, Sir,that there iscom-160 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
petition for ernployment between non-Whites on the one hand who reside
in the economic sector, and on the other hand thoçe who are recruited for
labour there; are theya cornpetitive set of grouyings?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir,1 think 1 have answered that.
Mr. G~oss: Since that is the case, would it not follow that the organi-
zation of trade unions on the part of those who residc in the Territory
would have an economic consequence in terms of restricting or affecting
the availability of migrant labour to employers in this çector?
Mr. KROGH There are no non-White labour unions, as far as Iknow,
in the southern sector.
Mr. GROSS :Ir. President,1 regard this as an evasion of my question,
perhaps unwitting.
The PXESIDENTI :do not think it is an evasion, Mr. Grosç-you put
two questions, really:as to whether ithad a cerrajn result, and whether
it affected; it is difficult for the witness to answer whcn a question really
contains two parts.I think if you will re-frame the question, then witness
should seek to answer the question aç put.
Mr. GROSS: 1 intended to ask, Sir, whether, in view ofthe competitive
position between the two non-White groups, the existence of trade unions
would have the practical effect-1 stress the word would-from an
economic point of view of restricting the availability of non-White
migrant labour?
Mr. KROGH: 1 think it would be in their interest to do so, Sir.
Xr. GROSS:That is not my question. Mr. President, 1 must protest
again.
The PRESIDENT I:would, would it, or would it not?
hlr. GROSS:Would it restrict, or xvouldit not, Sir?
Mr. KKOGH:1 think it would, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:1s it not the case that disputes have arisen in this sector
regarding precisely this competitive situation: do you know of any, of
your own knowledge?
Blr.KROGH: Not that 1know of, and 1 know why it has not.
The PRESIDENT :our answer is that you do not know.
&Ir.G~oss: Your answer is that you do not know?
&Ir.KROGH:1 do not know of any çuch disputes arising because of
that, and 1 know why, Sir.
Mr. GROSS Y:ou Say that there have been no disputes arising out of the
cornpetition between non-White groups from the sector and from outside
the sector respectively?
Nr. KROGH:Not any major disputes that have corne to my notice, or
that 1 would regard as of interest, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: May I cal1 your attention to one which is cited in the
Counter-MernoriaI, III,page 94, which is one of the five disputes there
enümerated and which Iread as follows:
"Smaller disputes involving strikes occurred at Walvis Bay
[parentheticallythe number is not specified in this pleading] as a
resultof the fact that various employers applied different wagrates
and that extra-temtorial and northern Natives gained the impres-
sion that they were regarded as less important and lcss valuable
Iabourers than Iocal workers from the Police Zone. Officiais othe
Department of Native Affairs investigated the cornplaints and ap-
proached employers, with the result that an Ernployers Association
was formed and uniform wage scales recomrnended." WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 161
Do 1 take it from your answer, Sir, that you are not familiar ~viththose
disputes?
hlr. KROGH:1am not familiar with that dispute and I cannot see that
itis contradictory to the answer 1 gave, Sir.
hlr.GROSS: Now, Sir, do you think that the fact, as set forthin the
Respondent's pleading, that labour disputes involving strikes occurred
as a result of thc fact that diffcrent wage ratwere paid respectively to
non-IVhites from the sector and non-\Yhites frorn outside the sector
bears upon the competitive situation between those two groups?
3lr. KRCIGHY : es, Sir1 am aware thatthe different wage rates arethe
result of diffecences in the supply conditionsthese workers who operate
in, as it were, a common market. It could, in fact, be explained very
sirnply in economic terms.
Mr. GRCISS Are you aware, Sir, why an employers' association was
formed?
Mr. KRC~GH N:O,Sir. 1 am not acquaintcd with this particularorgani-
zation.
Mr. G~oss: But you are clear, Sir, why an employees' association was
not formed, 1take it.
hlr. KRCIGHS :ir, 1 know that thcrc is no such ernployee organization.
Mr. GROS:1 yresume that it would be fair to Say,would it not, that
had such an organization becn formed it could not have been registered
underthe1;iwswhich are prevailingin theTerritory?1s that not correct,Sir?
Rh. KROGH:That is correct, Sir. 1 testified to that effect the other
day, Sir.
hIr. GROSS: 1just wanted to have it in the record in this contest of
this dispute. Now, Sir, in connection witli the responses you have given
regarding the economic impact in terms of the restriction upon com-
petition of employrnent which would arise in the event trade unions
existed (1am not putting wordç into your moutli, Sir,1 am paraphrasing
what 1 understand you to have said and the record willshow what you
actuallysaid),1do want, however, to refer to a report of the International
Labour Organisation ad hoc Coinmittee on Forced Labour, which is
escerpted in large part intheReply, IV,cornmencing at page 431,where
the citation to the document is given (U.K. Iloc. E/s~~I, 1953) T.he
following 1,rief extract from the report is set forth at page436 of the
Reply in the form of a conclusion on the part ofthe Cornmittee as fol-
lows; what 1 shall read applies to South Africa.1shall, with the Presi-
dent's perinisçion, then indicate thnt the same concIusion is applied to
South Wezt hfrica in the same report. Paragraph 372,on page 436, reads
as follows :
"With regard tathe economic aspects ofitsterms of reference, the
Committee is convinced of the existence in the Union of South
Africa of a legislntivestem applied only to the indigenous popula-
tion and designed to maintain an insuperatile barrier between these
people and the inhabitants of European origin. The indirect effect
of thisegislation is to channe1 the bulk of the indigenous inhabitants
into agiculturaland manual work and thus tocreate a permanent,
abundant and cheap labour force."
And then to complete my qiieçtion, Sir, at the same page, with respect
to South West Africa, the Committee reacked the following conclusion
on page 438 after referring to the allegations made:162 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"The Cornmittee's findings on these allegations are the same as
those which it reached in the case of the Union of South Africa
regarding the compulsory nature of labour contracts for 'non-
Whites' "
andthe next conclusion :
"The evidence before the Committee leads it to confirm in the case
of South West Africa the conclusions it reached with regard to the
Union of South Africa itself"[and in the footnote it appears that this
paragraph 372 is one of those conclusions].
Now, Sir, with respect to the I.L.O. finding or conclusion, that the
indirect effect of theegislation is "to channel the bulk of the indigenous
inhabitants into agricultural and manual work and thus to create a
permanent, abundant and cheaplabour force", would you please indicate
to the Court in what respects you regard that conclusion to be fallacious
or incomplete?
Mr. KROGH:I think it is fallacious and incomplete, Sir.
The PRESIDENT I: what respect, was the question.
Mr. G~oss: Inwhat respect, Sir?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, if you want me to explain .. .
The PRESIDENT1: wodd like you to explain in full.
Mr. KROGH :he existence of an over supply of labour relatively to
limited employment opportunities, Sir, is major, in fact a distinguishing
feature of underveloped countries. That is the first statement 1 would
want to make in this respect.
The second, Sir, is that this is particularlso in those parts of Africa
where, obviously, the extent of the development of modern economic
activity is limited. This is, therefore, to my mind, an indicationhal the
reference to this so-calIed legal system or restrictions operating in the
case of South West Africa as being the cause and the major cause of the
existence of so-called surplus labour is what we economists cal1 a case
of mispIaced concreteness in explaining it, Sir. It is not the reason, nor
would 1 regard it as the major reason, for the existence of so-called
surplus labour.
I would like to go just one step further and expIain that in 1961i,n
fact, a Cornmittee of Economic Experts (1do not know who the members
of the Committee were, that was responsible for the passages quoted,
Sir,andthat 1 am asked to comment on, but Ido knowwho the members
are of this Committee that 1 am referring to now) prepared a document ,
for the I.L.O.,which ispublished under the title Emfiloyment Objectives
in EconomiD cevelopment,1961, and incidentally, in which they describe
this whole dualisticsystem of economy-the existence of surplus labour-
and, in fact, discuss the whoIe issue in front of the Court at the moment
[ifanyone would care to look at that). 1 quote one of their major con-
clusions with regard to the policy implication for development in such
territoriesThey make the following statement :
"It is highly important that development policy should discourage
excessive horizontal mobility by al1 the means at its disposa1 and
should provide more satisfactory alternatives for those who would
otherwise drift to thetowns."
This is on page 106, Sir.
1 see most of these restrictions referred to as being designed tocope WITNBSSES AND EXPERTS 163
with a labour problem in a territory where you have had economic
development over a considerable period of time. Why 1 make this point,
Sir, is that these problems and the necessity,in fact,to employ al1 the
means at your disposal to limit the horizontal movement of labour isa
development stage which mast of Africa is still to experience in due
course, ifthey corne to that stage of development.
hIy general conclusion, Siristhat those are themain reasons, put very
brieflywithout further explanation, why 1, as an econornist, think that
that diagnosis is both fallacious and incomplete.
The PRESIDENT T:he I.L.O. diagitosis?
&Ir. KROCH : he one referred to and in question.Yes,Sir.
&Ir.G~oss: Just for the sake of clarity and correction, your reference
-if 1 uncierçtood you-to the legislation as being a "major cause"
(perhaps you misunderstood the resoliition which 1 read to you) is that
the indirect effect of the IegisIation is to channcl the bulk of the indige-
nous inhatiitants, etc. There is iio allegatiothenreport and no finding
in the conclusiori that this nsmajor cause, I just wanted to make this
point so as to clarify the precise conclusion reached. However, 1 should
like to ask you,if 1may, with respect to a corninent which you made in
your response-you have, Sir, referred a number of times in your
testimony to underdeveloped countries and underdeveloped economies,
have you iiot, Sir?
Mr. KROGH l'es, Sir, 1have.
&Ir. GROSS Including the response you just gave, if1 understood you
correctly? 1s that so?
&Ir. KROCH T:hat it so, Sir, but 1 must immediately admit that a11
economist~ would agree that the term is again an unfortunate one, and
that ithas been forced upon them by politiciansand journalists and other
people. There are chapters written just about the concept "underdevel-
oped", because it can reallybe very misleading.
The PRESIDENT V:ery well.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir.I !vas nottaxing you with the use of.that phrase,
I just wanted to be sure that 1 understood th:it you had used it.The
question that I should like to address to you, however, is whether you
consider that the economy in the southern sector of the Territory is an
underdeveloped economy in the sense in which you use the term?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, 1 use the term to indicate that the domestic econamy
of South West Africa (that is a term that we use to refer to alI the
economic activities within the national boundaries of the Territory) is,
in fact, an underdcveloped economy accorcling to the standard definition
used by al1 United Nations Agencies to indicate whether a country
is developed or underdeveloped. 1could go furttter, if you would like me
to.
Mr. G~oss: First 1would appreciate knowing whether or not you case
to answer my question.
hlr. KROCH : am getting to your question, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: May 1 re-state it,Mr. President? Do you regard the
economy of the southern-sector of the Territory as an underdeveloped
economy, in the sense that you have used the term?
Mr. KROGH :he term "under-development" is a relativ...
The PRESIDEKT D Oyou, in the sense which you have used the term,
regard itor do you not regard it as an underdeveloped economy?
Mr. KROGH: 1 would regard it as a less developed economy-an1~4 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
underdeveloped economy compared with that of Great Britain or Ame-
rica, yes, Sirbut cornpared ïvith the rest of AfricI would regard that
sector or economy as a developed econorny.
Mr. GROSS:You are aware, Sir,are you not, that the Odendaal Com-
mission has described the economy of the southern sector asa modern or
exchange economy? Are you familiar with the Odendaal Commission
report in that respect, Sir?
hIr. KROGH : Yes, Sir: 1 am.
Mr. G~oss: Do you disagree with that characterization of the economy
of the southern sector, Sir?
Mr. KROCH:Sir, 1 did give evidence on this the other day ...
The PRESIDENT:DO YOU or do you not agree?
Mt. KROGH:1 do not agree with it without qualification, Sir.
hlr. CROSS S:ir, at the risk of being facetious, is there anytin the
Odendaal Commission report of a basic analytical economic nature with
whicli you can express wholehearted agreement?
The PRESIDENT 1:do not think that you can ask that question; there
are about 500 pages of it.
Mr. GROSS:1 am struggling for a staternent in the report which 1 can
hope for, flat out, Sir.
\mat qualifications would you like the Court to have before it in their
consideration of the validityof the Odendaal Commission report in this
respect, Sir?
Alr. KROGH: Sir,the tems "modern economy", "diversifred economy",
"underdeveloped economy" are al1 relative concepts. They are used
rather loosely by people who have to formulate policy and people who
have to explain many of these particular featurein a very popular way.
It al1depends in what particular contexts those words were used in that
paragraph. 1have given evidence to show, Sir, that in a previous quota-
tion out of the report 1 disagreed with its use and 1 thought it was an
unhappy choice of terminology in that particular context. The same
concepts may in factbe used to emphasize or explain something that the
Commission had in mind in another respect, and Ihave to know in which
context. 1 cannot Say in general what 1 think the Commission had in
mind when usingthese terms throughout the report to describe different
situations, or to refer to some specific conditions in a modern economy
that may be present in the southern sector, but which again also contain
other features that would, norrnally, by no rneans be associated with a
modern economy. So 1 would like to know specifically how these terms
are uscd in the Commission's report in order to qualify them appropriately
for your further enlightenment.
Mr. GROSS: Mr. President, if the witness would ask for clarificati1n,
want to assure the witness and the Court that 1shall be only too glad to
furnish it. Now in reçponse tothe last comment, or question, for clarifica-
tion, 1 refer for example to paragraph1437 on page 429 ofthe Odendaal
Commission's report and should like to read, if 1 may, the following:
"An analysis of the socio-economicprogress made in the Territory
in the past leaves no doubt that the first aim has been achieved,
namely the development of a modern economy in the Southern
Sector by the White group ïvhereby avenues of employment and a
new field of experience have been creatcd enabling the non-IVhite
groups to transforrn their traditional socio-cultural background
selectively with a view to autogenous progressive development." WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 165
I should like, Sir, to ask, in this context, whether or not you agree with
the descriptionof the Odendaal Commission of the economy in the south-
ern sector as a "modern economy", "whereby avenues of employment
and a new field of experience have been created enabling the non-White
groups to iransform their traditional"etc. Do you agree with that as a
description of a modern econorny? Or do you disagee with that formula-
tionin the Odendaal Coniniission report?
Mr. KRCIGH Iwould agree with that broadly, Sir: yes.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, you are aware also, areyou not, that the Oden-
daal Commission report Likewiserefers to the modern economy of the
sector as an "exchange" or "money" economy? Are you familiar with
that, Sir?
M~.'KRoGH 1:am familiar with thatbut 1explained the other day that
that association between "exchange" or "money" economy on the one
hand, and "modern" economy on the other, is anunfortunate choice of
concepts which is very popularly used in many reports by very qualified
United Nations Agencies investigating the problems of underdeveloped
economies. l'ou see, Sir1 am not trying to be difficult on thisubject.
The point is just that the economic insights into development problems
and policies, andthe whole economics of underdeveIoped countries for
that matter, are still in an underdeveloped state themselves. ASregards
these concr:pts, we firsthave to agree on whwe are talking about before
we can start talking in the main. As economists Ivearein the stage where
we are acquiring insight and understanding.
The PRESIDENT T:he question is whether in general do you agree?
There may be qualifications in your mind, by conipsrisonwith some other
country, but in general do you agree with the description read by Mr.
Gross?
Mr. KROGH Y:es, SirI ~vouldin general agree with that.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, is it or is it not true that the Odendaal Com-
mission report, for example, in its discussion on page 427, under the
heading "Protection of Traditional Groups", with regard to the policy
pursued in the Territory, the economic policy pursued in the Territory,
that the Odendaal Commission analysis rests heavily upon the distinc-
tion there drawn between the so-called modern economy of this sector
and the traditional or subsistence economy of the northern territories?.Is
that not a correct appraisal of the Odendaal Commission report, if you
know, Sir?
Nr. KROGH Sir, yes, andas an economist 1 tliink that it ajustified
distinction for policy purposesinthe Territory.1 would think also that
it isa wise one from the viewpoint of formulatin and administering a
poIicy of development in the Territory of South 1%est Africa. In factit
is more striking in the case of South West Africa than isin many other
African territories.
Nr. G~oss: 1s it not correct, Sir, to follow from wh1tunderstood to
be your accluiescence, your affirmative answer to my question, in essence,
that one of the basic reasons asserted in the Ode~idaalCommiss~onrepo~t
for differeritial treatmenton a racial basis,in the economjc sector, 1s
focused preciseIy on the argument that the southern sector 1sa modern
econorny, whereas the northern is a traditional subsistence economy? 1s
not this a principal reason assigned by the Odendaal Commission to
explain the differential treatrnent betweeWhite and non-White in the
southern sector? 166 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. KROCH :Sir, 1am not aware of al1the considerations which led the
-0dendaal Commissionto adopt that approach, nor am 1fully acquainted
with the reasons for choosing those particular concepts.
Mr.GROSSY :OUtestified before the Commission, did you not, Sir?
Mr. KROGH 1:did, Sir.
Blr. GROSSS :Ofar as you are aware, Mr. Krogh, did any other econo-
mist testify before the Commission?
Mr.KROCH S:ir, I do not know, butit could very easily be estabiished,
and this does not mean that there were no other economists. There is a
long list of the witnesses the back...
The PRESIDENT Y:OUdo not know?
hlr. KROGH 1:do not know, Sir.
Mr. GROSST :hat was the only question addressed to you. Yoü do not
know whether any other economist did testify before the Commission.
Now, in the course of your testimony before the Commission, Dr. Krogh,
the econorny?d or did you volunteer testimony concerning the nature of
JIr.KROGH: 1 did, Sir.
blr. GROSSI:n the southern sector?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
Mr.GROSSW : ere you asked also withrespect to the ofphraseology,
not only in a technical word-game sense but expressing sound economic
concepts?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, 1 cannot recollect precisely, but 1 can give you an
assurance that 1 must have used terminology that they must have asked
me about (for what it was worth), but 1 cannot specifically rernember
whether these particular concepts were discussed in the course of my
appearance before the Commission.
Rir.GROSS :he record establishes, 1believe, subject to correction, that
no member of the Odendaal Commission was an economist. Can you
confirm or deny the accuracy of that statement?
Mr. KROGHS :ir, therewas a very well-known industrialist on the
Commission and 1 know for a fact that he is very well served with quali-
fied economists, in his private capacity. And alsobelieve that other
economists were at his disposal, both in the formulation and in the
discussion of the problemç that arose in the course of the Commission's
work. But 1 do not think any one of the members of the Odendaal Com-
mission held a degree in economics, but Dr. van Eck was specifically
appointed, if 1 remember correctly, for his economic knowledge and as
an industrialist who has in fact served on very many economic commis-
sions for the South African Govemment.
Mr. GROSSN : ow, Sir, am not seeking to impeach the capacities of
members of the Commission. 1 wish to enable the Court to have the
benefit of knowledge, if you had it, Sir, whether there were any econo-
miThe PREÇIDENTrs B:ut the witness's reply is an answeris it not, 3lr.r?
Gross? An economist is not necessarily one who has a degree: he can
acquire a great deal of experience but not have a degree, and yet be an
economist.
Mr. KROGH T:hat is right, Sir.
Mr. GROSÇ:1 would like to ask you, Sir, whether there were any
economists or industrialists as members of the staff of the Commission,
so far as you are aware? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 167
hIr. KRC~GS Hir:, 1 do not know what exactly the staff position of the
Commission was, but 1am quite sure that the wholegovernment senrice
and al1 the expert departments were at their disposa], if required.
Mr. G~oss: One more question along this line, Sir. Were there an
other economists-I shall leave aside industrialists for the moment, 'i
may-thoie who have been credited and professed economics as a
career or profession, who have been cited by the Commission in its
report, so far as you are aware, other than yourself?
Mr. KROGH: NO,Sir, but 1 know that they have consulted economists
who enjoy a higher standing than 1do and, in iact, are better qualified
than 1 am. Some of them are working at the Economic Commission for
the South African Government full time, Sir, and they are highly quali-
fied and eminent econornists, Sir.
Mr. GROSS N:ow, Sir, 1wish to assure the honourable Court, as well as
the witness, that these questions were not deçigned to banter the witness.
1 wvishto inake clear, Sir, that the analysis, on the basis of which the
Odendaal Commissionjustifies the policy of apartheid or separate devel-
opment, is the same as the basis upon which you were testifying, Sir,
between the various population groups in South West Africa. I wasentiation
seeking totzstablishwhether or not, as far as you areaware, the economic
premises and the economic analysis, from which the Odendaal Com-
mission proceeded in amving at its conclusions, were inany major reç-
pect different from those which you have becn testifying to before thls
Court.
Mr. KROGH S:ir, there are so many recommendations. 1think itisvery
unreasonahle, Sir, to expect me to answer very briefly. 1 wish to know
to which particular recommendation . ..
The PRESIDENT T:hen givea general answer. Take your time and an-
swer it. The question has been put to you in general terms so you are
entitled to answer itin generalterms.
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir.
hlr. GROSSM : ay 1, with the Court's permission, clarify.. .I wish to
make clear that the question is understood. Are there any major respects
in which the Odendaal Commission premises are different from yours in
arrjving at the conclusion that separate devclopment or apartheid is a
necessary condition of progresç in the Territory?
Mr. KROGHB : roadly speaking, Sir, there is no difference in my opinion
to those of the Commission on this particular issue, Sir.
Mr. GROSST :hank you, Sir, Now, I shouId Iiketo summarize thepoint
with respec:t to the effect of Iabour organizations. 1 just have one more
question on this, hlr. President. We have, in your testimony, Sir, to
which 1 have referred on page 156, szlpra,the tevtimony that "the trade
union movement would, in fact, restrict the number ofpeople that could,
in fact, becorne employed or offer their services". We have also, Sir,
in which you said that "these regdations would be adesigned to1limit the
number of skilled people in the territory, viewed as a homogeneous
whole, to qualify for particular trades".
Now, Sir, 1 ask you, on the basis of those two statements, which 1have
cited from your testimony, would itbe fairand accurate to Say that the
econornic policy cornes dom to this, that the availability of labour ?s
kept abundant and the flowregulated to meet nceds, whereas the quah-168 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
fication for skilis iç restricted in order to limit competition? 1s that a
correct surnmary ofyour testimony?
Mr. KROGHN : O,Sir.
Rlr. G~oss: Now, Sir, have you in your çtudies encountered or heard
ofMr. KROGH: Le01Khave corne across the name-yes, Sir. 1 have not met
him personally, Sir.
hlr. GROSS: Mr.President, and Membersofthe honourable Court, he iç,
at the present time, Professor of Sociologin the University ofCalifornia,
Los Angeles, formerly Professor of Sociology at the University of Natal
in South Africa. In an article appearing in a paper given to the African
Studieç Association in New York in October 1961, Professor Kuper
stated as follows, at page 28, with reference to the policy of separate
development or apartheid :
"Apartheid is, in fact, a very tightly knit system of integration
extending to numerous aspects of the lives of the groups invoIved,a
totalitarian system of integration."
And, then, with specificreference to certain economic aspects, Professor
Kuper states:
"Asecond illustration relates to the systems of influx and eBux
control and of labour bureaux. In theory, these permit the precise
integration of African labour into the economy. African labour can
be treated as a commodity and fed into industry in the precise
quantities and qualities desired, without anp redundancies in the
urban areas, while the reserves provide a pool to meet new or chang-
ing demands. This is a most exact and economical form of integra-
tion."
Would you, Sir, as an economic expert, agreewith that formulation or
analysis of the economic system and the regulatory controlç?
hfr. KROGH:NO,Sir, I do not, Sir.
The PRESTDENM T:r. Gross, if you simply aska question with respect
to what somebody else çaid and that somebody else is not before the
Court, don't you propose to fol1owit up and ask him in what respects he
does not agree?
Rlr. GROSS:lVell, 1 had intended to do that, Sir. 1 just wanted to
establish first, with respect Alr. President, whether or not he agreed or
disagreed. 1 wiçh to follow that up very ardently, Sir.
&Ir.RROGH:Yes, first of ,211t,his is a statement asociologist, Sir, and
1 am a qualified economiçt. Now, it is true, Sir, that we both belong to
the social scienccs, but it is generally known that economics is the most
disciplined of the undisciplined sciences, that is of the social sciences,
whereas sociology, Sir, is the most undisciplined of the social sciences.
The basis on which the particular statements rest and the principles un-
derlying that particular diagnosis, Sir, is something that 1, as an econo-
mist, cannot agree with, and 1 would like toexplain that, if it is required,
Sir, but then 1 would like that statement vaitten down so that 1 could
take it step by step. Riore than a mouthful has been said there, Sir,
and economic terms have also been used.
The PRESIDENT I:am sure Mr.Groçs\vil1dothat. He will take it piece
by piece now, 1am sure.
Mr. G~oss: The systems of influx and effluxcontrol and of labour WITKESSES AND EXPERTS 169
bureaux are the systems to which Professor Kuper addresses himself in
this paragraph. -
>Ir.KROCH: That js clear,Sir. Thank you.
>Ir.GROSS : ow, Sir,"in theory" [he says] "these permit the precise
integration of African labour into the economy". Now, Sir, do you
disagree, as an economist, with the sociologisthere that thesedevices do
"pernlit" of a precise degree of integration?
Mr. KROG :H1disagree. Sir.
Mr. GROSS :hey do not permit of it, Sir?
Alr.KROGH: This system, Sir, does not, in fact, from an economic
vieivpoint, permit of economic integration of the mernbers who are being
controlled in coming into this economy, Sir, they do not becomc econo-
mically homogeneous units of the modern economy. Iexplained that the
other day, Sir, and why 1 make this distinction.
MT . ROSS :ow, secondly, or consequentially :"African labour can be
treated as a commodity and fed into industry in the precise quantities
and qualities desircd without any redundancies in the urban areas while
the Reserves provide a pool to meet neiv or changing de~nands." Now,
Sir, do you agree that under these procedures and regiilations African
labour cari be treated as such a commodity and fed in, as deçired? Do
yori disagree with that, Sir?
Mr. ICROGH Sir, 1disagree with that as an economist, first of al1 (this
might not be the case with a sociologist), because we do not refer to
labour as a commodity. Secondly, Sir, the whole intention and design of
the control of labour coming in from the Native Reserves (in this partic-
ular case I have to have an example in mind to illustrate this very
specificalty, Sir-entering, sny, from the northern territoriesto the
southern inoden economy) rest on two very good reasons that are in-
creasingly being appreciated and, in fact, used as a basis for making
policy recommendations in countries that arc: experiencing excessive
horizontal movernent of labour to areas where there are not enough iobs
to go around, Sir. -.
The firsts,Sir,that in order toavoid urban slum areas (this islooking
now from the viewpoint, Sir, of thearea where these jobs are available):
in order to avoid this open and, in fact, worse stateof rnisery, Sir, iis
regarded as necessary io control the influx of Labour from akas where
there are less jobs availableat thisstage of development. Furthermore,
this labour is also controllein the interest of the area from where thcse
people corne, Sir. ln thecourse of my reçearch Itried to establish what
criteria were used from the side of the tr;iditioiial economy, that is from
where these people come, Sir-whether any criteria were applied in fact
with regard to the nurnbers that were allowed to Ieave their traditional ,
economy, becauçe as an econornist 1 am interestedto seeto what extent
economic conditions could be affected by the absence of these workers
from thesi: traditionaleconomies. In otlier words, Sir, to what extent
could one technically regard the labour available there as "surplus"
labour that could be removed or, in fact, be a1Iowedto enter the deveIoped
areas to seek employment and thereby supp1i:ment their income earn-
ings, experience and so forth.
NOWI vas told not by one but by sevcral of the responsible officers,
Sir, that the number they have in mind varies from 7 to IO per cent. of
the total population in, forinstance, Ovamboland, which as you know
accounts for nearIy half the population of theTerritory, Sir.The reason SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
170
given for this variation is that it al1 depends on the particular year or
season of the year-droughts often last for several years in South West
Africa and would obviousiy make more labour available. They would in
fact then try their best from that end, if a similar drought didn't hit the
other part of the modern sector as well, to aUow more of these workers
to acquire jobs in thmodern sector in order to supplement their earnings
and livelihoods by going out to work. But apart £rom the seasonal factor
of variation,Sir,they alço know that as soon as there is availablc in the
traditional economy less than one able-bodied man to two wornen, a
stage is reached that could be regarded as a danger point for al1practical
purposes. In fact this is a general rule used in other parts of Africa as
well, and 1 can give you the literature on this if you require it, Sir. The
reason is, Sir, that in this particular economy which1nomrhave in mind
(1 am referring to the traditional Ovamboland economy) the women
are the agricultural workers, .\vvhereasthe men are not required to do
regular jobs in this type of economy, with the result that they are
available, as it were, in surplus form part of the year or time that they
are not required to do the particular tasks that are traditionally required
of them.
Hence, the extent to which such labour control operates is not, in fact,
that indicated by the Professor quoted by hlr. Gross. The extent of
control andthe restrictions applied are based on dual economic consider-
ations and 1 should imagine that there are other social considerations as
well. They are nevertheiess based on economic considerations tliatapply
in fact to both the modern sector, Sir, and to the area from wliich theçe
migrant workers originate.
hlr.GROSS: Sir, would it be a fair reduction of your response to its
essence to Say that the African labour through these devices caii be
treated as a commodity and fed in to industry in the precise quantities
and qualities desired?
Rlr. KROGH :ir,1would not use that terminology. But 1think that the
placing of labour in the sense that you regulate the available labour, see
to it that they arrive at and come to areas ~vherethere isa shortage of
labour-South West Africa is a very vast territory as 1pointed out the
other day, 20tirneç thesizeof the Netherlrtndsand itspopulation half the
sizeof that of The Hague-these mining activities, the farms, the employ-
ment opportunities are spread over vast areas, Sir, and in order to
regulate and place the workers coming in from the northern territories as
quickly, speedily and conveniently as possible-by convenient I rnean
with regard to the workers-Sir, 1 can very well understand that this
may in fact be part of the reason ~vhycontrol is exercised in taking into
employment these labour units entering into the modern economy of the
Territory.
Mt. GROSS N:ow, Sir, the last point in the paragraph I have cited is
"this is amost exact and economicaI form of integration". Now 1 think
you have already commented on that use of theterm ...
Air. KROGH I:disagree with that completely, Sir.
Rlr. GROSS I'eç, Sir. Do you wish to comment further?
Mr. KROGH:NO, Sir, 1 am quite happy about my reply, Sir, in my
previous testimony.
Mr. GROSS : OW,with the President's permission, 1 would like to
turn back to the Odendaal Commission report and refer to page 31j.
am now referring, Sir, to the southern sectoras the report does in the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS x7r
context ~vhich1shall refer to. At page 315,in paragraph 1284 (a) under
the heading of "The Exchange Sector", the foliowing statement is made
inthe Cornmission report among others :
"The members of this developed sector are White and their
standard of living is, etc." [for the purpoof my discussion it is not
necesjary to complete this sentence, although I will be glad to do
sol.
The PRESIDENT: Where precisely is that paragraph? 1s it the long
paragraph ?
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir, it is the second sentence. Did 1 Sa1284?
The PRESIDENT: Yes, but 1 realizeit iç1285.
hlr. G~oss: It i1285,I am sorry,Sir. "The members ofthis developed
sector are White." In the first place have you cornmentecl to the fullest
extent you wish ivith respect to the phrase "developed sector" in this -
context?
Mr. KROGH :es, Sir.1 would not like to cover al1that ground again,
Sir.
Xr. GROSS :ow, with respect to the use of the phraseUthemembers",
what, if you k~low, do you understand the iritentor purport of that
' phrase to be in this context?
Mr. KROGH: Just exactly what it says, Sir.
>Ir. G~oss:HOWdo you distinguish between a member of the sector
and a non-member; as between, let us Say, a non-White who has been
born, livesandworks throughout his lifin the sector,and a personwho
does the same thing but with a different colour, for instance White?
How do you determine the basis on which one is amember of that sector
and the other is not ?
Mr. KROGH: The easiest way for me, as an independent economist,
Sir, would be to apply a rule of thumb in this regard and look at the
colour of the skin of the particular person, Sir, becausI know that the
historical background, economic qualities, aptitudes and so forth of the
members of the White group are quite different frotn the rest for a11
practical purposes of my analysis, but not necessarily for purposes of
adrninistesing laws or anything like that. Iwill be observing this as an
economist, Sir, describing a thing as1 see itbut Ido admit that 1 may
be wrong with particularly small exceptions. Generally çpeaking, how-
ever, 1 would, in fact, be quite happy that 1 \vil1be describing quite
satisfactorilyfor purposes of economic analysis, the different types of
economy that you have there.
1 do not for a moment suggest, Sir, that there is necessanly any direct
association ... between the colour of your skin, Sir, and your economic
performance-1 do not know, Sir. But 1 do in fact say that in practice
1 observe this without enquiring further, Sir, in my particular field of
study. lhether there 1sany association between the colour of your skin
and your economic performance might be quite incidental. 1, as an
economist, if you want toknow this,am inclined to think it is adifference
in the stageof development of different groups of people, Sir.
Rlr. G~oss: Now, Sir, is a White child, let us say five years old, a
member oi the White sector in the sense in which you use the term?
hlr.KROGH: Yes, Sir.
hlr. G~oss:Now, that would bebecause of his ethnic parentage-would
it, Sir?172 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
>Ir. KROGH: No, Sir. 1 tried to point out the other day, Sir, that
economists have borrowed two concepts to describe different kinds of
economic societies. We have borrowed these from sociologists and an-
thropologists. We are not happy about these concepts being used in
every context because they often convey wrong ideas that may be
emotion-inspired, Sir. Nevertheiess, we distinguish between on the one
hand what we cal1"tradition-bound societies"-this does not mean that
itis apermanent state at all, asa matter of fact, Europe was inhabited
by tradition-bound societies several centuries ago, Sir-andon the other
hand, you have economic societies like those that went to the so-called
New WorId-New Zealand, Australia, Canada and the United States of
America, Sir-that had quite a different social, cultural and economic
background to the people who have traditionally lived in Africa, Sir.
As economists we Say that the economic problems of development, the
absorptive capacities ofthese different societies with regard to the in-
vestment of capital, or the extent to which public support or aid should
be given to these two different types of societies are quite different for
policy purposes, Sir.1 can go into detail to explüin why we regard this
so, but 1do not think it wilI be necessary 1sdid in fact make this point
in the course of my elidence, Sir .s an econoniist interested in these
problems 1wish to Say that the fact that the one society's members are
largely of a different colour than those of another societywould, according
to my mind, Sir, be completely incidental. But it is a ruIe whic1 must
admit one applies, it is only human to do so, Sir, anI am quite happy
economically speaking that here 1 arrive at a diagnosis which is for al1
practical purposes, Sir, approximately correct.
Mr. GROSS:NOW,Sir, you referred to the absorptive capacity of the
group as a group-is that what you had in mind, Sir?
Mr. KROCH That is correct, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Those individuals who have relatively poor absorptive
capacity come under the umbrella of the group, do they, for the purpose
of your analysis?
Mr. KROCH That is correct, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:In this respect a one-year old child has more or less
absorptive capacity than let us Say a five-year old?
Mr. KROGH: He has more absorptive capacity because he is my child
and he is born and brought up in quite a different social, culturand
economic environment than would be a child in the other exampie that
you were, in fact, tryingtorefer to, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Now with respect, Sir, to Coloured, as the classification in
the census-do you regard the Coloureds as having absorptive capacity
similar to the so-called Natives or the so-called Whites?
Mr. KROGH :ir,I regard the people of mixed coIour in South Africa
referred to as Coloureds to have a greater absorptive capacity from an
economic viewpoint-by that 1 sirnply mean that they can make more
productive use of capital,aid, technical assistance under exactly similar
conditions than would be the case of a population group of the same size
composed of members of the Native population, Sir.Yes, 1 would Say
that, Sir,asan economist.
Mr.GROSST : hat they have the same absorptive capacity . . .?
Mr. KROGH : O,Sir.
Mr. GROSS:1misunderstood you.
Mr. KROGH :Osorry, I am terribly sorry, Sir. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I73
&Ir. G~oss: No, it is my fault. CIarify it, if you will, if the Court
permits.
Mr. KROGH: NO, it is not necessary-what I had in mind waç to tell
you that 1,as an economist, observe and would state, Sir, that as a group
they have a different absorptive capacity-that is the concept we use to
indicate different productiveness.The Coloured group would, 1 think no
doubt be more productive in the sense that 1 have used that word, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: 1s the question then of productivity irrespective of race,
did 1undt:rstand you correctly, the criterion?
Mr. KROGH: Irrespective of race, Sir, because 1 am absolutely con-
vinced, especially afte1 had visited the United States of America, Sir,
that the cultural, social and productivity levels between, for instance,
the so-called "Negro1'-bvhich refers to the non-White population mem-
bers orpeople of a dark colour there-are very close indeed, Sir,ifnot
virtually identical, to thaof the large majority of White Americans. 1
' am quite sure there must be many Negroes whri are in fact economically
more productive or have a greater absorptive capacity than a large
number of, for instance,the White group. This proves tome as an econo-
mist that it is riot a matter of race at all, Sir. To mit1s a matter of
differencesinstages of general development, Sir.
Mr. G~ciss:Now, Sir, in the Odendaal Commission report at paragraph
121,page 33, the Commission describes the Coloureds numbering 12,708,
as follows as having-
". . . strong Caucasian strain and for the most part maintain a
Western culture and way of life. Their language is chiefly Afrikaans.
A considerable nurnber hail from the Cape Province. The Coloureds
are found mainly in the larger towns, such as Windhoek, Walvis
Bay, Luderitz and Keetmanshoop, where they are emploped or have
their own businesses in industry. Many are artisans in the building
trade. A small proportion make a livelihood as stock-farmers."
Would you Say, Sir, that they are not included as members of the White
sector for any reason other than their race?
MT. KR~SGH TO my mind, Sir, 1 will answer that question by saying
simply that if you want to split hairs1would like to go further on that.
Ican make these distinctions even clearer, Sir, but 1 would use thoçe
terms to typify, Sir, a type of society and to contrast that which is
important for economic development policy purposes with another type
of economy or group of people you have referred to, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:The Coloureds, Sir?
&Ir.K~ocw: Yes, Sir.1 was referring to this type of çociety you were
describing. You were explaining their typical economic activities and
this, infwt, sutistantiates what 1 tried to tell j70ujust now, namely Sir,
that that description indicates to me as an economist that they are
economically more viable than the Native population groups but less
viable, Sir, 1 would Say, than the \mite population group.
Mr. GRIISS: Sir, may I have time for one or two more questions?
The PRI~SIDENT W:ell, try them out anyhow, Mr. Gross.
Mr. GRCIÇS D:r. Krogh, with respect to the classification of the popula-
tion in thiscensus on the basis of Native, Coloured and White, is it or
is it not a fact that restrictions upon freedom and limitations upon
advancement attend the classification, and are s consequence of the
classification? 1sthat not correct, Sir? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I75
is from the verbatim record of 13 July at X, page 538. In that colloquy
on that page the following exchange took place:
"Mr. G~oss: And the answer is 'yes' to tlie question that there are
ceilings placed upon non-Whites, solely because they are non-
Whites? 1sthat correct?
Mr. CILLIE:NO,1 would Say no. If you put it like that,1 upould
Say placed upon them because they do iiot belong to the White
group."
And then finally witness Professor Logan, testifying on g July, at X,
pages 410-42o 0fthe verbatim record-the following exchange:
"Mr. GROSSE : OWdo those restrictions [this referred to restrictions
upon achieving higher empioyrnent status], on the basis of your
study and analysis,have any relationship to the individual's innate
capacity or personal potential andability?
Mr. LOGAN T:hey have no relation to this, no.
Mr. GROSS :hey are based entirely, arthey, on his classification
under the census?
Mr. LOGAN: That is correct."
Do you agree with me, Sir, that the quotations 1 have read from Dr.
Bruwer, Mr. Cillie and Professor Logan al1corne to the same point: that
ceilings are imposed upon individuals in the White sector becsuse they
are not members of the White group. Do you have any question about
the purport of the testimony 1 have read in that respect 7
Mr. KROGH N:O,Sir,1 have ...
MT. G~oss: Do you agree with that, and if you do not, will you please
explain to the Court why you do not?
Mr. KROGA : gree, Sir-1 must Say now whether I agree or disagrec?
This is completely a value judgment; the word "agree" implies that 1
Say that that must or should or should not or must not be done. I want
to make clear that when 1 say that 1 agree with that, then 1 Say so in
the sense that as an economist 1 agree that the problems of economic
deveIoprncint and hence the most appropriate policies for the develop-
ment of tliese different population groups are basically different ; there-
fore the pciliciesappropriate to these particular problems of development
are different.1 will go further, and I will Say that eveifthese people
were at the same stage ofeconomic development 1 can still, as an econo-
mist-it is not a matter of whetherIagree or not-very well understand
how members of one group at the same stage of development as that of
members of another group may prefer to retain their identitas a group.
Thiç may be for economic reasons only, but it maÿ also be for non-
economic reasons.
As a matter of fact,Sir,in the rest of Africa--am referring largely to
tropical Africa-you find that the inhabitants arorganized socially into
different socio-economic units or groups. They are more or leçs, generally
speaking, at the same stage of economic development, but they never-
theless want to retain their identitThey may not prefer to be governed
or ruled by members of another group, and to that extent they rnay very
well lay restrictions or impose limitations on the entry of other group
members to the extent that members of other groups would want in fact
to govern them or administer them. 1 can understand that-but whether
1 have to agree to that ornot is,I feel as an economist, a question that176 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
can only be answered with a policy implication, and that is a persona1
matter. As a South African, I am also a member of a group, and my
ansuver would be my persona1 views. 1 do not think that is worth any-
thing to the Court, that ismy persona1 views as a member of a group,
as distinguished from my views as an economist.
&Ir. GROSS: Ur. President, Sir, in the interests of expedition and
clsrity 1 am atternpting my best to keep my questions clear and to
request answers lvhich do not involve extended comment. &Ir.President,
1 had ssked the witness whether he agreed with the statements made,
which Lhave read £rom the testimony. The witness itseems to me, with
respect, Sir, has esplained his views concerning the validity of the policy.
1 woiild like to have the record clear on this point, Dr. Krogh, with the
President's permission, whether you can give an unqualified statement
concerning whether or not you agree with the accuracy or validity of the
testimony which I have read.
'rhe PRESIDENT The difficulty1 think arisesbetween yourself and the
witness, Mr.Gross. You ask him whether he agrees with three staternents.
It iss little difficult, you know, for the witness; there is the position of
the witness to be considered. 1 do not think itwas fully responsive to
your question, but it would be easier if you put separate issues to him.
Does he agree with this, does hc agree with that? To ask him if he
agrees with three statements leads him apparently into the position
where he does not know precisely what he is to anslver.
&Ir.GROSS: 1 accept that of course, needless to Say, Sir. 1 had at-
tempted to circumvent that by asking whether he regarded the three
statements as having the sarne purport. 1 would not press the witness,
Sir, if 1 did recoilect and understand the response. The question is do
you agree, Sir, with the validity or accuracy of the statement by Jlr.
Cillie, that ceilings are pIaced upon non-\nites because they do not
belong to the White group? 1sthat an accurate statement so far as your
economic analysis, expertise is concerned, or knowledge of the fact, is
that a correct statement or is it not, Sir?
Mr. KROGH S:ir, to the extent that the members of the White group
prefer to impose these restrictions on members of other groups, 1, as an
economist, would observe this . ..
The PRESIDENT :ut that is not the question you rire asked, Dr.
Xrogh, the question is ~vhether in fact thcre is a ceiling placed upon
them?That isthe question. The reasons for the placing of the ceiling is
another matter and either you give your reasons at some later stage in
answer to counsel for the Respondent or you do not give them at all, but
that is the question.
&Ir.KROGH:There are restrictionsoperating on members of non-
White population groups that are infact employed in the White econorny.
Yes, that is the case, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:NOW,1 am as!-cingthis question, Sir, so that you may
consider your response intems ofthe reason for my putting it to you.
IVould you please advise the Court, without reservation ifyou can,
whether or not restrictions or ceiIings are placed upon non-Whites be-
cause they are not members of the White group?
>ZrK.ROGH: Yes, Sir, there are restrictions placed on them because
they arenot regarded asmembers of the White group.
nIr.GROSS N:OW,Sir, would you tell the Court whether in your analysis
ofthe economics of the Territory, I am referring now to the southern WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I77
sector, whether non-Iihite labour is essential to the viability of the
economy 7
Mr. KROGH: Sir, 1must ask exactly what is meant by viability, Sir.
1do not think we understand each other ori the use of the term.
The PRESIDENT 1s it essential for the functioningof the ecanorny,
1 suppose?
Mr. G~oss: 1 would be glad to rephrase the question. Iwas trying
vainlp to use a phrase that 1 erroneously attributed to thc economics
profession.
1s the use of non-White labour necessary to enable the economy in the
southern sector to survive?
Mr. KROCH : efinitely not to survive, Sir, but to operate at the lcvel
at which it is operating at the moment. It is,irifact,an economic part
of it. That is my reply, Sir.
Slr. GROSS: In other words, Sir, your qualification,1iunderstood you
correctly, was that it could not survive aa modern economy? 1s that a
correct interpretation?
Jlr. KROGH: 1 think itcan survive as a modern economy without any
non-White labour, Sir. 1use the term "survive" tomean what that term
means literally.
Mr. GRCISS:Now, would you be prepared to Say that the economy
would be ableto thrive without non-Llihite labour or do you accept that
as a fair dt:scription afcondition of theecoiioiny?
Mr. ICROGH S:ir,1 think that the economy operütes at s higher level
because of the use of the non-\$'hite labour compared with the situation
that would obtain if non-White labour had not been used. And 1 also
think that it is in the interest of both Parties economically speakin...
The PRESIDEN TT:at isnot the question you were asked.
Air. GROSS:May I rephrase it, Sir?
The PRESIDEST: Certainly.
Xr. G~oss: Would you accept the thriving of ;in economy as a descrip-
tion of its quality?Vould you preferto use another word to describe its
operation at a satisfactory level?
Mr. KROGH:It depends what you have in niind, Sir. A satisfacto~
level is a ciiimpletely relative term.
Mr. GROSS: 1 wodd like to ask you, Sir, inorder to avoid a seeming
debate or argument between us, which 1 am sure would be out of place,
whether or not therefore, as an economist, you would agree or disagree
with the testirnonyof Dr. Bruwer inthe verbatiin recordto which 1have
referred, on 6 July, X, page 303, in which Dr. Bruwer agreed that he
could not, as a member of the Odendaal Commission foresee, "the
practical ~iossibility of the White economy surviving andlor thriving
without the use of non-Llrhite labour". Do you,as an economist, wish to
take issue mith Dr. Bruwer, asa member of the Odendaal Commission or
otherwise?
hlr. KROGH: 1 know Dr. Bruwer perçonally, Sir, and 1 am sure that
he spoke tliere as a non-economist, also usingwords that if 1 explained
to him exactly what those terrns mcant to an economist, 1 am inc-ned
to think tliat he would a~ree-but he has his own opinion on this of
course-that that staternent is not correct, Sir.
illr.G~oss: What statement is that,Sjr?
ilIr.KROGH T:he last statement you rend to me, Sir.
hIr. G~oss: 1s not correct, Sir?17~ SOUTH WEST AFRICA
&Ir.KBOGH Y:es,Sir.
Mr. GROSS T:he record will have to speak for itselfNow, Sir, in the
testimony reIating to this same matter, in the same verbatim record, on
page 304, Dr. Bruwer was asked questions with respect to the tirne
span envisaged, if any, with respect to the ultimate objective, as he
described it, when the White economy could operaie without non-White
labour at any acceptable level. The question was as followç-1 am simply
identifying the problem sa that you can focus on it as 1read now the
exchange-page 304 of the same verbatim record which 1 have just
cited:
"The Odendaal Commission based its recommendations, if Iunder-
stand you correctly, on the assumption that at some time in the
future, the White economy would operate withoul non-White labour.
1s thisa correct version of your testimony?
fiIrBRUWER That is a correct interpretation.
hIr. GROSS:And what time span did this conclusion cover?
Rlr. BRUWER:Rlr. President, the Commission certainly did not
consider a span oftime.
Mr. GROSS 1sthis an important factor inthe lifof an individual
living today ?
Mr. BRUWER:It may well be, Mr. President.
hlr. G~oss: Could such a span extend, let 11s Say, for 300 years
possibly?
Mr. BRUWER T:hat is also possible, Mr. President."
1 shoutd like to ask you as an economist, Sir, whether or not the
operation of the White economy without non-White labour is,so far as
you are aware, a policy or objective of the Government?
Mr. KKOGH:Sir, 1 am aware that politicians have in fact made that
statement.
Mr. GROSS:Did you Say politiciansSir?
Mr. KROGH : Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS1 :did not understand : Iam sorry.
Now, would you answer the question in your own ternis, Sir: do you
know whether or not thisisan objective of the Government?
Mr. KROGH Sir,1 think it itheobjective of the Government to create
as many economic opportunities in the areas now set aside, mhich will
in fact be expanded as and when required, outside the White sector,
with the particular purpose that the members of the different population
groups need not come into direct persona1 contact in view of the need
of thcir ecnnomic interdependence. Whether they envisage a Wute
economy, inthe sense that there would not be a single mernber of the
non-White population group, either on business, on vacation, to acquire
skillsto attend institutions of learning oatall,1 cannot sa?. 1 do nat
exactly know what they have in mind ultimately.
Rut I know thatit is part ofthe policy, and 1have evidence to show,
and 1 am quite content, that they are trying to spread the modern
economic activities to areas where the different population groups, or the
members of these different popuIation groups, can live and work, be born
and die, without necessarily having to corne into contact with the mem-
bers of other population groups.
Mr. GROSS: Dr.Krogh, does the policp ofseparate development, about
which you are testifying, as a witness and expert, contemplateor does WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I79
it not contemplate, that there will for an indefinite period be non-lfliite
labour availableand at work in the economic sector of the Territory?
&Zr.KROCH T:hat 1 do not know, Sir.
BZr. GROSS Y:ou do not know the ansiver ta that, Sir. You testified
before the Odendaal Commission with respect to the policy of separate
development, did you, Sir, in any respect?
Mr.KROGH S:ir, 1cannot exactly remember the details of the questions
that were put to me at this occasion. It is quite possi...
RirGROSS :do not want to press you for details or tSour recollcc-
tion, that undoubtedly would be unfair. Did you teçtify before the
Odendaal Commissionin respect to the question ofseparate development
in any of its aspects?
JIr.KROGH Y:es, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Now would you please indicate tothe Court whether, in
your testinlony, the subject of the ultimate objcctive of the programme
was invol\*ed?
Iilr.ICROGH Sir, the only objective that was in fact discussed, at the
occasion ofmy appearing before the Odendaal Commission as an econo-
thus far not been developed economically to the same extenteaasttliose
that 1 have described to you asthe modern sector in the southern part
of the Teriitory. And, in this connection, we discuçscd rnatters-1can
remember now, Sir-~vith regard to whether one has to approach these
development problems differently from those in the modern White sector
of the economy. As a witneçs there 1 told them that 1 believed that the
problems were basically different, for several reasons, whicll 1 need nat
go,into now.
The PRESIDENT Y:OUneed not give the reasons at this stage, Doctor.
bIr.G~oss: May I begin, for the sake of clarity and expedition,Say
that 1 am referring to the modern sector and 1 wouId like to ask you
now, Sir, whether the rnining industry, for exampie-are you familiar
with the ernpioyment figuresin the mining industry, by the way?
>Ir. KROGH : More or less, Sir.
Afr.GROSS :erhaps 1 cou1dSave you taxing your own recollection if
1could find them myself. Accordingto the Odendaal Commissionreport,
page 343, the ernployment in mining in 1962 tas as follows: FWte,
2,003, and non-White, 8,734. Do YOU have any reason to question thase
figures?
AIr.KROGH : NO,Sir, but I want to make quite sure that they refer to
Soiith West Africa. Yeç, Sir, of course that is right.
Mr. G~oss: I am refernng to South West Africa only, Sir. With
respect to the question of the operation of those mines 1 address this
question to you. Both as a witness and as an economist, or eithewhat
would be the source of lliite labour in themines if non-imite labour
were no longer to be employed at a given point?
mechanized industry in the whole of the United States, 1c amsttold by
United States economists,is the mining industry and I look at the United
States becausc this indicates to onehat technical means of producing
things ...
Mr.GROSSS:ir, map 1interrupl a moment to ask a clarifying question?
The PRESIDHNT : think he isansweririg youc question,and I think180 SOUTH WEST -4FRICA
you should give him a little longer. 1 think he is going to refer to nuto-
rnation.
Mr. KROCH: Yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir, but 1thought we might telescope it.
The PRESIDENT:YOUshould make your answer as short as you can,
Doctor.
Mr. I~KOGH 1will try, Sir.
Mr. CROSS W: ell, iother words, Sir, would your answer be, ifthe
President permits, that there would not be White labour emploped in
the mines under those circumstances: they would be fully automated?
1s that the purport of your intended answer?
Mr. KROGH :1 was trying to show you, Sir, th1think it could be quite
economical to operate the mines in South West Africa largely without
non-\hite labour, which is mostly noof ahighly skilledand managerial
nature.
The PRESIDENT y:u mean at the present moment that couId be done?
Mr. KROGH:Well, at the present moment 1 coiild not possibly sec why
it would be in anyone's economic interests todo that, but it is a hypo-
thetical question. Nobody ~vantçto removc thest: people instantly.
The PI~BSIDEN Te:hnically isit possible today?
Rit -ROGH : es, but it would nobc economical.
The PRESIDENT: 1 understand that.
hlr. GROSS:Sir, without wishing to quarrel with -ou, would you
seriously regard ias a hypothetical question to enqüire as an economist
into the effects in the mining industry if the non-White labour was
eliminated in the light of the Odendaal Commission assumption that
there would be no non-\'hite labour in South West Africa at some future
time? 1sthis not a question foran economist?
Do you wish to continuewith your answer, Sir, on the basis of whether
or not there would be non-ihite labour employed in the mines under
any foreseeable circumstances, so far as you are aware, if the mines are
to continue to operate?
Mr. KROGH: The rising price, or wages of these non-White labourers
could in fact be such, after a certain stage, that it would justify the
introduction of mechanical means or automation, as has in fact been
done in the United States of America, witli the shortage of labour that
has developed over the time there. Under srich condition1 caii see that
the mines would, if the labour was the same quality at that stage, find
it economical to operate without this labour. 1can visualize that, de-
pending on the economic conditions that are assumed to apply in due
course.I must know what the economic conditions are otherwise 1
cannot answer yes or no to that typeofquestion.
&Ir.G~oss: Dr. Krogh, based upon the answer you have just given, as
an expert, would there be IITliiteemployees if the mines are to continue
tooperate? '
Mr. KROGH : tithintheframework of the policy of separate develop-
ment, it is clear me that there would he members of the \hite group
employed and working in the mines in the White areas.
Mr. GROSS T:he mines, in other words, could not operate unless there
were either Whiteor non-White labour or hoth: that is clear, Sir?They
could not beIOO per cent. automatic,could they, Sir?
Mr. KROGH 1:was not suggesting that for a moment ...
Mr. GROSS: 1 mas just asking you a question. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 181
Mr. KROGH :es.
Mr. GROSS : ow, under the circumstances we are discuççing, and 1
refer now specifically to the fact that you are testifying bas a witness
and an expert, with regard to the necessity for separate development in
the Territory, would it be the case necessalily that under those circum-
stances, that is the elimination of non-IVhite labour in the mine, no jobs
would be available at a higher level of labour for non-Whites under the
policy of çeparate developrnent?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, the point is not "necessarily", and 1 would like to
expfain that ifyou would give me an opportunity to do so.
Mr. GROSS :ir,1 would like you to answer the question, yes, if we
understand each other on what the question is.
blr. KROCH:Sir, it is quite possible that in due course, in IO, 20 or
30 years' tirne, the whole mining induçtry mighr in fact be operated by
non-White labour from the bottom right up to the top.
1 can give you an example where this specialization ofthe different
population groups is now, in fact, developing in South Africa on an
industrial l~asis. This means that the whole industry is virtuaiiy being
operated, asit were, by non-imites in White areas. So it is quite possible,
Sir, that the 1Vhiies that are in fact at tlie moment empIoyed in the
mining industry may very well in 20, 30 or 40 years' time not prefer
themselveç to work in mines in their own White areas. This is quite
possible, it depends upon the economic situation and conditions and
opportunitics at that tirne, Sir.
The PRES~DENT It does not require even an economist to come to that
conclusion, does itDr. Krogh?
Mr. GROSS:Under the policy of separate development to which you
are addressing your testimony, Sir, would \\'hites and non-n'hites be
permitted rinder any circumstances in the sector to work alongside each
other in a situation in which a Whitetakeç order~ from, or operates under
the supervision of a non-White?
Mr. KROGH: 1 do not know, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: You do not know whether that is a characteristic of the
separate development or apartheid poljcy? You do not know, Sir,whether
this is a characteristic of the apartheiorseparate development policy?
Mr. KROGH: It is not itmain charactesistic, that1know. Whether it
isa charact:eristic or not, 1 do not know1 know it is not one of its main
characteristics.
Mr. GROSS :ir, may I cal1 to your attention the Counter-hlemorial,
III,at page 55, in which it is stated as follows-this is following the
listingof tlie prohibited posts in mining, tliat isthose from which non-
Whites are barred, the explanation for which is given as follows:
"These factors [thrit is the trncing of the factors purporting to
explaiti this restriction] are accentuathy the fact that the mem-
bers ofthe European group have traditionallyoccupied a position
of guardianship in respect of the indigenous groups, and that in the
economic fieLclthe relationship between Europeans and Natives has
generally been limited to that of employers and employees. In this
factual situation, most Europeans would refuse to serve in positions
where Natives might be placed in authori2.y over them. Although
very few, ifany, Natives in the Territory would at present be able
to holil any of the posts mentioned in the aforegoing paragraph,
Respondent was nevertheleçs obliged to take cognisance of the182 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
factual situation, and, for the considerations aforestated, to adopt
measures which would prevent Natives employed in European
owned rnining enterprises from being appointed to technical and
responsible posts in which they wouId exercise authority over
European CO-employees."
1 cal1 your attention specifically and particularly to the last sentence,
that Respondent was forced for the reasons mentioned-this was the
expianation supplied, "to adopt measures which would prevent Natives
employed in European-owned mining enterprises from being appointed
to technical and responsible posts in which they would exercise authority
over European CO-employees".Now, Sir, would you pleaçe state whether
this policy isor isnot a factor, an aspect of the policy of apartheid or
seMr. KROGH:It is, Sir.
development, the evolution or transition from the present situation to
one in which supervisory non-White employees would be placed over
White employees, that this would require an alteration in one of the
fundamental premises and tenets of the policy of apartheid? 1s this not
correct, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, 1 do not think that is correct, for the very simple
reason that most of the Whites, that work in mines outside South Afnca
and South West Africa, Sir, and they are rnembers of White groups,
apparently do not object at this stage against working under, let us Say
a member of a non-White group. 1 can quite understand that, Sir, but I
cannot say as an economist whether in IO,zo,30 or 40 years' time, the
members of the White group would be quite happy to work under a
non-White manager. 1can also Say, Sir, that in mines now, as the policy
stands at the moment, where mines are in fact in non-White areas, 1can
very well understand that there you could possibly find members of the
White group working under, being employed ifthey so wish, by members
of the non-White group. If this will be changed in due course, 1 do not
knom; but I respect, Sir, the wishes of the members of different groups.
If they do not in fact want to employ members of another group or do
not mant their members to work under members of another group, 1can
very well appreciate that if you forced them to do this, you would be
invitin social strife, Sir.
Mr. &ROSS :Social whvhatS,ir?
Mr. KROGH :Social strife.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, just as a final question in this line and 1 will
endeavour, hlr. Preçidcnt, to bring this to a conclusion rapidly, the
honourable Preçident addressed a question to you in the verbatim of
23 September 1965 at page 119, supra, à $repos, I may Say, for the
clarification of your responsc, of the question of limitations imposed on
empIoyment. 1 take the liberty of quoting:
"The PRESIDENT1 : see. LVhatis the purpose then of a government
ordinance if the resuIt would be the same whether there was or was
not a government ordinance?"
And you responded in the same verbatim as follou7s:
"The purpose in this particular setting would be to indicate very
clearlp to the people who have aspirations for these particular jobs
that are being created in a particular areby a particular economy, WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 183
not to aspire for these particular jobs, because this would frustrate
them. In fact, it would be like a signpost indicating before you enter
the street that this is a cul-de-sac, instead of arriving at the end and
then discovering that you have not been warned or clearly indicated
that tfiere areother ways of arrivinatyour particular destination."
Now, I shouTdlike ta askyou, Sir,in the light particularly of thepues-
tions and a.nswers which have just been placed into the record, whether
it wouId bc:fair to characterize your response to the question addressed
to you by the honourable President as indicatin); a permanent exclusion
of non-Whiteç from equal participation with Whites in the modern
sector of the economy?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, to the extent that the membt:rs of a particular White
group do not want members of another White group to compete with
them or, in fact, the members of the White population group being
economically more resourceful or skilled, take jobs of the economically
weaker-1 can see that there can be social strife and reaction and 1must
appreciate thisasan economist.
Secondly, 1 can also appreciate as an econornist tpat members of
different groups who have,in fact, equal ski11but there is, let us assume,
only one job and this job is in an area that is clearly demarcated asan
area in which members of aparticular group en,joy preference or can in
fact Iay down preferences-that although these different individuals may
have the same qualification, 1can very well understand and do respect,
Sir, the wishes of ,agroup excluding the member of another group or
discriminating against him, unless of course, Sir, there is no other way of
giving or creating or providing employment opportunitiesfor the member
who is excluded in this way. If he were excludetl without such an alter-
native I can imagine a responsible Government, must weigh up al1 the
consequences of such a particular set of circumstancesSir.
Mr. GROSS : hen you referred to one group and another group in the
repiy you have just given, for the sake of conlplete precision do you
mean \hites and non-Whites in the modern sector of the economy?
Mr. KROGH: Or the different non-White groups, Sir. 1can very well
imagine this too, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Does one non-White group impose restrictions upon the
freedoms or advancement of other non-White groups in the modern
economy?
Mr. KROGH: No, Sir.Because the modern ecoilomy is not .. .
Mr. GROSS:Therefore, in the modern econonty your question wdd
relate would it by the use of your terms "group" and "another groupM-
Whites vis-à-vis non-mites, would it not, Sir?
Mr. KROGH: With respect to the modern economy.
Mr. GROSS:Ta the imposition of ceilings or liin~tations upon freedom
of movement, referring to that.
Mr. KROGH Y:es, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Now, you testified, Sir, with respect to the relationship of
the groups, White and non-White, in the following terms. In the record
of 23 September, at page 107, supra,you testified, Sir, in response to a
question-"most of the members of one group would view the members
of another group as foreigners very often". This describesinterdia,the
attitude between the Imites and the non-T$'hites,does it, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:On the contrary, Sir, 1 think there issome misunder-
standing here, if you would just permit me very briefly,1 willnot cover184 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
this matter very fully, but it is abviously a very important matter and 1
would want to clear this up once and for al], Sir. If you will permit me,
Sir, to give you just very briefly the views of one of the most distinguished
econornists of this century on the problem of economic development, Sir
Arthur Lewis, who has been economic adviser to President Nkrumah of
Ghana, and furtherrnore, also 1 believe to part of Nigeria. He is at
present Professor in Princeton University, after lie hnclheld similar posts
in Great Uritain. Now, he has very recently, Sir, in the Encozsnter of
z August 1965, page 5,made this point, and in being a distinguished
economist, he puts it very much better. He makes the point, in fact, Sir,
with reference not to White and non-White groups, but with reference
to IVest Africa in an article ~4th the titUeyondAfrican Dictatorsltip-
TheCrisis ofthe One Party State. 1admit that this is largely with regard
to political administration and development in the \Vest African territo-
ries, but it abo states theproblem ~6th reference to economic develop-
ment. Itmay be ofdirect interest here and Ithink it explains the view-
point 1 am trying to convey.
Professor Lewis states here on page 5:
"Each country [and he refers to West Africa, Sir] contains several
tribes living xt different economic levels[arid 1 amnot, in the case
of South West Africa referring ta tribes, Sir, but groups of people
composed of different tribes. Sir Arthur Lewis refers to West Africa].
And tribal consciousness and economicdifferencecombine toproduce
mutual antagonisms which menace the unity of the State. The result
of these mutual antagonisms is that every political party has a
geographical base. Some tribes support it; others are hostile toit,
or, at best, indifferent.[He goes on to Say, Sir:] A single party
supported equally by al1 the tribes is an impossible drearn. [I am
skipping some of the rest and continue.] The tribe is the basis of its
organization. So, even in Ibadan, the capital, where live men from
every tribe, the party is organized not by street or by district, but
by tribe-family, village and tribe are West Africa's primary social
units."
1 stop here, Sir, and, if you would allaw me, just very briefly on page 8
in this particular articleit is sai...
Mr. G~oss: May 1 interject, Sir? 1 fear that the question may have
been lost sight of.
The PRESIDENTI: V57ç1 1t,hi~ikwe had better finish the quotation. Then
we can put the question again. You had better finish thiç quotation now
you have started upon it, witness.
Mr. KROGH:Sir, very briefly (1would like to quote more from this
article but 1will end with the following), Sir Arthur Lewis contraçts the
situation, for instance, with Britain and France, he says:
"Britain and France are class societies and their institutions and
conventions are designed to cope with this fact. \fiest Africa is not
a class societ;its problem is that it is a pluralsociety. iVhat is good
for a class society is bad for a plural society. Henceto create good
politiccil institutions in West Africa one haç to think their problems
through from the foundations up."
1will leave itat that, Sir, because this to me explains...
The PRZSIDENT D:OYOU remember the question which was put tuyou?
Rlr. KROGH: l'es, Sir, the question which was put to me, if1remember WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 185
correctly, was whether 1refer, when 1Say forthc sake of social peac...
hir. GROÇS:NO,Sir. Forgive me, Sir.
The PRESIDENT pu:t the question again.
Rlr.G~oss: 1am sure, Sir, this ia good question you have in mind
but the one 1 asked was: In your testimony you said that most of the
members ctfone group would view the members of another group as
foreigners very often.1 was asking you, Sir, whether you were referring
to the attitude between [Vhite and non-[hite groups in the context of
that sentence.
&Ir.KROCH:I replied to that "not necesçanlybetween White and non-
White groups".
Mr. GROSS:Does that rnean not necessarily, Sir-just for the sake of
clarity and not by way of argument-you mean that it applies to the
relationship between LVtiitesand non-Whites, and that it also applies to
the relationship between certain non-White groups? 1s that what you
mean, Sir?
Mr. KROGHT :hat is what 1 would Iike to Say, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:May 1, then, ask, Sir, with respect toa similar statement
which you made in the verbatim at page 139, sztpra,where in response
to a similar question you said "here, you have different groups, people
viewingeach other as~nernbersofgroups with suspicion", in this sentence
were you referring to the relationship between White and non-White
groups, among others?
BIr. KROGHA : mong others, yes, Sir.
Blr. GRGSSN : ow, Sir, when you responded to the question just a
moment ago you referred, in respecof other territones, if I understood
you correctly, you used the expression, "mutual antagonism". Did 1
understand you to use that phrase?
hlr. KROGH S:ir, 1 think that is the phrase that was used ...
Mr. KROGH: Th:tes.u were citing?
Blr.GROSS: Were citing that . . .
Bir. KROGHY : es, 1 was citing that out of the article 1 had in fofnt
me, Sir.
Rlr. GROSS: Wece you citing that with ayiproval, Sir-with con-
currence?
Mr. KROGHW : ith approval. To me as an economist, Sir, the rnatteis
clear if you look at South West Africaat its historbefore and after the
White mari arrived on the scene, as 1 described in my particular testi-
mony. There are these various groups that, in fact, regard each 0th
~4th mutu;il suspicion,Sir. Moreover, if you look at various commissions
that have, in fact, reported on South West Africa, long before the Oden-
daal Comniission, Sir-as a mntter of fnct 1 ciin think ofa particular
commissio~iof the 1930s which was headed by Dr. Holloway, the very
well-knowri and distinguished economist-it is clcar to me that mutual
antagonisnis do,in fact, esist, among theçe groiips, Sir.
The PRESIDEET T:he question was whether you agree with the state-
ment of Sir Arthur Lewis.
Mr. KRQGH : es,1 agree with this statement.
The PRESIDENTW : ell, if you-agree with it, that was the answer to
hIr. Gross' question.
Mr. GROSSW : ould YOU then characterize the relationship between the
\mites and the non-\mites in South IVest Africa,taking these two sets186 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
of groupings alone for the moment for the purpose of rny question, as
characterized not only by "suspicion" (the word you used) and as
"foreigners" (another word you used) and also fairly characterized by
the descriptionof "mutual antagonism", Sir?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, 1 think it has the same ...
hlr.G~oss: Now, Sir, with respect to the frequent references you have
made to the importance of the maintenance of social peace-1 think you
have used that phrase several tirneshave you not, Sir, as an important
objective of the system in South West Africa?
Jlr. ICHOCH1 : have said that that isa factor you have to take into
consideration inforrnulating or advising on policies as an economist, Sir.
Rlr. G~oss: And you have referred, have you not, Sir, in several con-
texts ivith regard to the question of restrictions imposed by IVhites upon
non-Whites, that such restrictions are to some extent necessary or
required in order to ensure social peace?
hlr. KROGH :Yes, Sir.
>Ir. G~oss: You have testifiedto that effect, have you not?
Nr. KROCH:I have, Sir.
Mr. GROSS1 : have referred, for the convenience of the Court, to the
verbatim at pages 105 and 106. supra.
You are familiar, are you Sir, with the statement quoted by the Res-
pondent in the Hejoinder, V,pages 252-253, which I shall read to you-
the statement by Prime Minister Verwoerd in which he is quoted as
saying :
"The only possible way out .. .is ... that both, ive.,the White
man and the Bantu, accept a development separate from each
other. The present Covernment believes in the domination (baass-
ka+),of the White man in his own area,but it equally believes in the
domination (baasskap) of the Bantu in his area."
Are you familiar with the statement, Sir? Have you read the pleadings,
including this section of theiejoinder?
&Ir.KROGH: 1have never corne across that statement but 1 can see
that is quite in line with the policy envisaged and described as that of
separate development, Sir.
&Ir.GROSS:NOW,Sir, would you agree with the description of Dr.
Verwoerd in respect of the economic modern economy of the Temtory
-the White economy, as it is called in the Odendaal Commission
report-aç an area in which White domination isexercised, in Prime
Minister Verwoerd's words?
Blr. KROGH: 1 should say the Whites dominate the economy-yes, Sir.
Mr.GROSS:YOUwould Say that the White man dominates and the
non-White is dominated?
Mr. KROGH N:O,1will not Say "is dorninated". 1will Saythe dominat-
ing feature of the modern economy is that the White man, in fact, under-
takes, runs, organizcç, finances this particular economy.1do not imply
by that . . .
Mr. GROSS:NOW,Sir, is "domination of the \mite man in his area"
-to use the phrase used by Prime Minister Verwoerd-does that have
any relevance to the i~npositionof restrictions upon advancement, or the
right to enter into apprenticeship agreements, for instance?
Mr. KROGH: Sir,1 do not know what the Prime Rlinister of South
Africa had in mind when he said that and on what occasion he said it but, WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 1~7
as an economist, the word "dominate" there means to me that it iç the
dominating feature of that economy, Sir.
The PRESTDENT I: has an objective meaning? .
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir. That is the interpretation 1 put on that term,
Sir.1 do ncit know what he meant by the use of that term,Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Now, Sir, the imposition by the dominant group of restric-
tions upon advancement, or promotion, or ~novement of the non-
dominant group-would that fairly characterize the situation prevailing
inthe economic sector of the Territory?
Mr. KROGH : es, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Pardon me, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: 1 did not hear you. 1 am sorry, Sir.
Mr. KROCH: 1 have testified to that effect, Sir.
Mr. GROÇÇ: Now, with regard to the maintenance of social peace, was
it theintent or purport of your references to the importance of maintain-
ing social peace that the White dominant group should be satisfied, as-
sured, ofthe protection of itsown interests, as a price of social peace-
was that the intention?
Mr. KROGH: Sir,1 can assure you that, as far as social peace is con-
cerned, an economist has to take that into consideratioBut the problern
in South West Africa isthat the CVhitesmay very well iook too well after
themselves individually-too well that is at the expense of other groups-
and that the main consideration for the imposition of measures of
protection.t'or the sake of social peace, Sir, operates not in the first direc-
tion indicated, but the second is the most important one in the case of
South West Africa. It is the factor of production land that 1am sure, for
instance, must be protected against the economically stronger and more
resourceful group in the Territory, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, when you referred in your testimony in the verbatim
at page 16, supra, to what you described as the "marginal eflect" from
an economic viewpoint of the restrictions imposed upon freedom of
movement or advancement, you said Sir, that "restrictive measures may
very well be required in the interest of social pecice".
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Now, Sir, my question to you is wliether or not the phrase
"social peace", to which you refer there, means the economic or other
interest of the White group upon which they insist and for which the
restrictions are imposed-is that what you meaiit by "social peace"?
Air.KROGH n: that context, yes; Sir.
Mr. GROSS:In this context?
Mr. KROI;H:Yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: But would it not follow inevitably, Sir, that, under those
circumstani:es, social peace would have to be bought, in many cases,at
the price ofsocial justice? Would you agree witli that, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:It is a social cost, Sir, under those particular circum-
stances.
Mr. GROÇS:And is the social cost not heavily visited upon individuals
who may bave an innate quality or capacity triimprove their lot and
their life?
Mr. KROCH Sir,1think 1 have given you that repIy in the very paFa-
that itis of marginal significance, Sir.rnony. 1think as aneconomist,188 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. GROSS:It is of what, Sir?
Mr. KROGH : arginal significance-thimeans it is not of fundamental
significance.
Mr. G~oss: To the individual who is affected by it?
The PRESIDENT:This has been gone into many times, MT. Gross.
Mr. G~oss: Mr. President, with al1respect, the Applicants consider it
of the greatest importance to have a frank, unequivocal answer to this
question. If it has been made 1 will apologize, and would then ask that
it be repeated; if it has not been made1 urge it, 1may and with your
permission, upon the witness.
The PRESIDENT B:y al1means.
Mr. G~oss: Would you please ançwer the question, Sir?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir, 1 have already answered the question before,
and 1 will repeat it to you now again: that looking at a particular individ-
ual 1can very well understand that this would in fact mean an economic
sacrifice forthisparticulindividual. Yes,Sir, but we arenot dealing with
a Robinson Crusoe economy where there is one person only; we are
dealingwith a socialeconomy that is infact specially complicated in view
of the plural nature of the society, which 1mentioned right in the be-
ginning of my evidence as one of the structural problems of economic
development in South West Africa that any government or responsibIe
authority will have to take into consideration in developing the country
econornically. 1 would go further, and I would Say that even for the
particular group of which he is a member-1 ain taking this now from
the individual to the group to the inhabitants of the Territory as a
whole-1 can also see thaitmight be of some significance to the welfare
of that particular group. But,1 can assure you that from the viewpoint
of the economic development of South West Africa seen as a whole it is
of marginal significance. And,1can very well appreciate as an economist
who has also studied the principles of welfare economics and of economic
inter-relationships that any responsible authority will very well have to
decide many issues against the background of the total social situation,
narnely how it could very well compensate for the economic loss of an
individual or of the members of a particular group by making concessions
or creating other economic opportunities where such persons are in fact
excluded by the wishes of another group. My ançwer refers there to the
economy of South West Africa in parficular, and you asked me to what
extent does it refer to the individual?1 can very well understand that
there are certain individuals who may,in fact, be affected detrimentally,
economically speaking by such restrictions as you are referring to in the
rnining industry, and the supply of public transyortationand the other
examples that you rnentioned, but 1 can assure you as an economist that
thisis of marginal significance considering the economy asa whole.
Mr. GROSS:With respect to the effect of the restrictions imposed by
the dominant White group, is it of any economic significance or relevance
that the White dominant group has the responsibility to promote to the
utmost the weifare ofthe inhabitants of the Territory without their
participation in hisecisions?
Mr. KROGH: 1 have always interpreted that particular objective to
apply to the inhabitants of the Territory as a whole.
Mr. GROSS : SOthat it is intended to be understood by your answer that
the White dominant group, as the decision-making group, then must
make constant determinations as to the extent to which individuals will IVITNESSI-S AND EXPERTS 189
suffer in the interest of their interpretatiof the economy as a whole-
is thisa coi~ect statement?
Mr. KROGH :o, 1 have aIways interpreted that statement to refer to
the obligations of the Mandatory, and in this pai*ticular case it would be
an outside party, being the Government of the Republic of South Africa;
and 1have also always interpreted the particular provisions you refer to
as relating to the inhabitants of South West Africa as in fact the popula-
tion waç composed in 1920, inwhich case tliere was a \'hite population
group. 1 deduce from this that itis the obligation of the responsible
authority for the administration and development of the Territory to
take the total sociaI situation of the Territory into consideration, and1
would say that any economist could very well see thatthe policy pursued
with regard to tlie development of thc economy of South West Africa
was one in which members of the White population group were relied
upon first to discover, initiate and introduce modern forms of economic
activity inSouth West Africa.
Nr. GROSS :Vouldit be a fair çummation of your testimony to Say
that the White dominant group as trustee not only determines and
allocates the share of the cake, to use your earlier expression, but also
the degree and the condition of individual sacrifice or hardship which is
to be visited upon individuais in the Territory?
Mr. KROGH: They do this as ordinary economic units operating in the
Territory. Yes, they do this by employing certainpeople and not em-
ploying other people; they do this by purchasing from a certain person
and not from another; to that extent they do in fact, hecause the economy
that we are referring to is one ~vhichthey have created, which they run
and in fact maintain and devclop.
Mr. GROSS :Mr. President,there isonepoint which I would have ~aised
at the outset but.for the fact that the witness was in mid-flight on a
question Ieft over from the previous session. It ic, 1 may say so,Sir, a
clean-up type of question of aspecific nature,and 1 should like to con-
clude with it, but it is out of context of the matters we have just been
discussing.
The PRESIDENT B:y al1 means; if you feel itis necessary to put a
question, you put it, &Ir.Gross.
Mr. GROSS1: wanted to explain, Sir, that itisout of context.
The YRESIDENTT :hat's al1right-the Court wil1be able to follow it.
Mr. G~oss: Thank you, Sir. The question is this: in your tesemony on
24 September, at page 128,supra, you made references ta the industrial
census and the classificationstherein, which you read out, of skilled
and semi-sltilled non-White workers, and on that page of the same
verbatim record you referred to "Occupational Distribution of Natives
in South West Africa, 1960 census". The Applicants have sought over
the ïveekend to obtain a copy of that document, and have been advised
that itdoes not exist as a document. Would you please, Sir, clarify this
matter, and also explain what the actual source ii of the figures you cite?
Nr. KROGH:1 will gladly do so, because I have something personal
to do with this.1 spent rnost of the weekend in Amsterdam, having been
a student there, and 1was not readily available. Inen 1 returned they
asked me ahout these figures.The figuresare not infact published, as are
many census figures. I extracted these figures from the Bureau of Census
Statistics in Pretoria as notes fomy own reçearch purposes, and 1 wlll
gladly suppty these notes to SIr. Gross if heso requires. Unfortunately,Ig" SOUTH WEST AFRICA
1 might have given the impression in my evidence that they were taken
from a published document. What I was referring to is that these figures
were taken from the 1960 census data, which research workers very often
try to get even before they are published, or which are often not pub-
lished at all.
The PRESIDENTY : esMr. Gross?
Mr. G~oss: Mr. President, 1would respectfully request that the source
material be made available, reserving the right to comment thereon in
due course, but 1 should likc, if 1 may, in view of the fact that it has not
been possible to prepare for crocs-examinatio~i on the basis of these
figures, to ask the witness, Sir, whether the basis of the classifications in
your sources break down the positions as between skilled and semi-
skiiled-my first point-would you answer that?
Mr. KROGH: 1 can give you the details for every class and type of
occupation that is in fact incIuded under the category of skilled and
semi-skilled persons.In other words, by way of definition it gives you a
breakdown of the various and different workers that fa11under Category
A, which refers ta workers other than labourers, the last item of which
reads "Other skilled or semi-skilledorker"-Item 7; Group B refers to
labourers including unspecified (those are workers that the census
authorities could not without doubt classify eitheraslabourers or semi-
skilled or skilled-they urere put under "Labourers"); and these two
together would give you the total number of economically employed
other than farmers or farm managers which, if they are added to that
total, would give you the total economically active Native population in
the Territory.
The PRESIDENT1 : sec it isjust on 6 o'clock, Mr. Gross, and your
position is thatnot baving had the source document before you, you are
obviously not in a position to cross-examine in relation to the details
which were given, and you desire to have whatever source document the
witness prepared for the purpose of reaching the conclusions expressed
in hisevidence?
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir,1 would appreciate the document, but 1 would
also appreciate a direct response to my questioit, which waswhether or
not the figures show the distinction between skilIed and semi-skilled; 1
understand that the answer is that they do not break down between
skilled and semi-skilled-is that correc7
hlr.KROGHN : O,they don't, Sir-that iscorrect, but 1can give you
some details to show which jobs are skilled ...
Mr. G~oss: IVhich jobs are skilIed and which are semi-skilled?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, from the particular description of the various
breakdoms ...
hlr. G~oss:The second question, just to complete the record at this
point, and then I am through, Sir, iI may: does it likewisshow break-
down between Coloured and Native?
Mr. KROGH :1 have only the data for that year for the Native popula-
tion.
Mr. GROSS: SOwhen you used the phrase "non-White" in your testi-
mony, you were referring to "Native" alone-ir that correct?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, but 1 can assure you that in the case of the Coloured
population there would even be more skilled and semi-skilled than there
are in the distribution1have given you for the Xative population.
Mr. GROSS: Mr. President, 1 appreciate this patience that has been WITNESSES AND EXPERTS =9=
shown to this lengthy cross-examination; Ihave no further questions of
this witness, Sir.
The PRESIDENT: You do not deçire to go into any detail on any source
material at all?
hlr. G~oss: Weii, Sir,1 would like to reserve the right to comment
upon that, but 1understood from the witnesç, perhaps erroneously, that
it wouId take some time-perhaps 1did misunderstand, Mr. President;
could 1 entluire through you, Sir, when the document will be made
available?
The PRESIDENT : octor, could you Say when the document which
contains your source material from which you derived these figures is
able to be made available to Mr. Gross?
&Ir.KROGH Sir,1 can have the typist make a copy this evening of rny
notes that 1.have here, and 1 can try to have it delivered at Mr. Gross'ç
convenience before, Say, g o'clock to night?
The PRESIDENT: 1 think that should be convr:nient, because 1 think
that one should aim atconcluding the cross-examination of this witness
if itis possible, Mr. Gross.
Mr. G~oss: I have concluded, subject only to this.
The PRESIDENT:Subject to that then; the document containing the
source material urillbe delivered this evening to yon, and if you desire
to continue any cross-examination tomorrow, you dl be prepared to do
so at IO o'clock,I assume?
Mr. GROSS : Subject, Mr. President, to a self-imposed, self-denying
ordinance.
The PRESIDENT:Well, 1 think we al1 have self-denying ordinances,
Mr. Gross.
The PRESIDENT :he hearing is resurned. Mr. Gross, do you desire to
ask any further questions of the witness?
Rlr. GROSJ:By your Ieave, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT C:ertainly.
Mr. GROÇS:At the close of the session yesterday, Mr. President,
Respondent was good enough to agree to supply the source of material
from which Dr. Krogh quoted, and haç been good enough to do so. 1
have it before me in the form of a two-page document which isheaded
"South West Africa: Occupational Distribution of Natives 1960" and
which, 1 presume, Sir, will be added tothe documentation.
The PRESIDENT:Not necessarily at all, Mr. Gross: you are cross-
esarnining, you know, and the question of whether it is put in evidence
is a matter for the Respondent. You can ask thc witness anything you
wish about the document itself, but it does not become part of the
documentation.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir. 1 wish to clarify the point because1note that in
the pleadings, the Rejoinder, VI, page 176, there isa listing, with nine
sub-headings, which contains the same numbers, although somewhat
differently arranged, ain these notes; and the citation in the Rejoinder,
at page 176, is to "Departmental information".
The PRESIDENT:Page 176 of the Rejoinder?
Mr. GROSS:Page 176af the Rejoinder, Sir. 1 should like to ask the
witness whether he isfarniliar with the list on that page of the Rejoinder. SOUTH WEST AFPICA
=92
It is introduced by the following paragraph:
"In further elucidation thereof,the following list has been com-
piled of occupations held by Natives in the Territory not employed
as labourers or engaged in farming activities:".
And then follows a list of nine categories. Are you familiar, Sir, with that
listing?
Mr. KROGH : Yes,1 think 1 have seen that listing, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:The total number of employees, of perçons empIoyed in the
liçted occupations, is21,230. That, Dr. Krogh, is the same number to
which you referred in your testimony in the verbatim record on 24 Sep-
tember, at page 126,s~pra, in which you stated, among other things:
"In this census of 1960 indicating occupational distribution of
Natives engaged in economic activity inthe southern sector there
was, in fact, a total classified as skilled and semi-skilled ~vorkers-a
total of~1,230.''
Do the figures in the materialwhich you have supplied to the ilppli-
cants, the title of whichI have read into the record, apply, Sir, to em-
ployees in these occupations in the Territory as a whole inthe southern
sector?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, 1 think they refer to employees in the sauthern sector.
1 could check that to be absolutely certain, but I am nearly sure that
they refer to workers in the southern sector.
Mr. G~oss: The figure of 21,230, in the Rejoinder, VI, page 176,
follows an introductory paragraph in which, as I have said, reference is
to occupations held by Natives in the Territory.Do you, Sir, know of
your own knowledge whether this is an error and means to refer only to
the southernsector; or whether, on the contrary, your reference in your
testirnony to the southern sector only was an ei-ror, and that the figures
actually refer to the Territory as a whole? Canyou straighten the rnatter
out for the Court?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, itis clear tome that there isan inconsistency there,
namely my reference to the southern sector, a.nd this other document
referring to the Territory aç a urhole. But since we are concerned here
with the total number of skilled and semi-skille1,know that if it should
also cover the area falling outside the Police Zone, then it would not
affect the number of semi-skilled and skilled to any considerable extent.
As a rnatter of fact, inmy evidence you will see (1 have not got the
document in front of me, unfortunately), but 1think that the number of
labourers was something like rog,ooo, on the one hand . ..
Mr. G~oss: May 1 read it for the witness, hlr. President?
The PRE~IDENT: Yes, 1 think the witness also should have a copy of
his document.
Mr. MULLER :have a copy here, if 1may hand it to the witness. It is
the same as Mr. Gross has.
The PRESIDENT:Thank you, hlr. Muller. We may as welI get the evi-
dence accurately.
hlr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, 1 rounded off those figures when 1 tried to
arrive ai a ratio of the skilled and semi-skilled on the one hand, athe
total, otherthan agriculturalists and other than labourers, on the other,
and 1 am quite convinced, knowing the Territory and knowing these
figures-1 have worked with these figures in calculating the national
income for the Territory-that it would not affect the picture matenally. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS '93
1want to tell you, Sir, that the number involvt:d, even if it is r,ooo or
2,000, would not affect so large a number to any considerable extent.
But 1 am riot quite sure now whether the figures refer to the southern
sector only.,or to the Territoryas a whole.1would like to check that. Rut
1 can assure you that for al1practical purposes it would be correct to Say
that they refer, by and large, to the employment conditions in the
southern sector. In fact 1 know that al1the migrant workers, who come
from the northern parts of the Territory, the 28,000 mentioned earlier on
in the evidencc, are included in these figures because they work in the
southern çector. They would be classified as "labourers" under the last
category.
1 am just trying to make this point to indicate that it would not, to
my mind, affect the picture to any major extent, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: Well, Sir, just to refer for a moment to the figure which
you rounded out to 1o5,ooo. That figure is a sub-total, in thsheets that
you have suppiied to the Applicants, which includes the categories of
labourers. '.Thatis correct,is inot, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:That is correct, Sir. It refers to ClassificationB.
Mr. G~oss: Yeç, Sir. Now, 1 was referring to the figure of 21,230, of
skilled and semi-skilled, that is, those other than labourers, and do 1
understand your answer to my question with respect to that figure,
21,230, to lie that this figure refersto perçons employed in the southern
sector or in the Territory as a whole?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, Iam not quite sure now whether they refer to the
southern sector alone or to the Territory as a whole, but 1can giveyou
the assurance-it is rny impression-that the number involved in the
21,230, who would be engaged as skilled and semi-skilled in the areas
falling outside the Police Zone, would not affect that total figure mate-
riaIly.
Mr. GROSS: DOyou mean, Sir, ta shorten the matter for purpases of
elucidation, that the figures of employment in the territory outside the
southern sector, in the skilled or semi-skilled categories,is a negligible
figure? 1s tliat wliat you mean?
Mr. KROGH:Tt is negligibly small compared with the total, Sir.
&Ir. GROÇS: What ratio, roughly then, would you indicate, please, to
the Court?
hIr. KROGH:1 shall have to estimate this rouglily, Sir. 1 think one can
reasonably say that (of the ~1,000) it would bt: round about 2,000 .to
3,000, but this is of course not a modern economy, as Iexplained earlier
on.
Mr. G~oss: The 2,000 to 3,000 of this zr,ooo, approximately, are
employed in these skilled or semi-skilled occupations in the territory
outside the southern sector? 1s that what you have said, Sir? .
Mr. KROC;H T:hat is my rough estimate, Sir.
hfr.GROSS : ith respect to those 2,000 to 3,000, approximately, do
you have any figures or approximations with respect to how many of
those 2,000 or 3,000 are in skilled and how manyare in semi-skilled work?
Rir.KROGH:Sir, 1 have not got those figures, no.
hlr. GROSS:Do you have an approximation based on your knowledge
of the economics of the Territory?
hlr. KROGH:Sir, 1 have to make another rough estimate. May we
break this down?
Sir, 1 would Say that the number will be, Say, between 500 to 1,000I94 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
skilled and the rest1would imagine could very well be what is classlfied
as semi-skilled, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Now, of the number you have approximated for skilled in
the area of the territory outside the southern sector, could you indicate
to the Court,please, the industries or enterprises in which such skills are
at work?
Mr. KROGH:Well, Sir, to begin with, there is the sphere of public
administration, apart from the private sector, and 1 am sure there are
agricultural officers, translatorsclerks and administrative persoiinel.
There is also a great number of teachers, Sir,that would be included
under the public service. 1 can include there people serving in the field
of medical services, Sir. Further there isa number of craftsmen and
operators. 1 can see them working on the tractors, Sir, making bricks,
building these new townships. There is the furniture factory which I
visited-1 can see them working there, Sir.I am out of the public sector
now and have already moved into the private sector, Sir. There must be
some others that 1cannot visualize at the moment, but they are there, Sir.
Mr. GROSS T:hank you. Could you give a rough approximation of the
distribution between the public sector and industrial or agricultural?
Mr. KROCH: 1 think that about more than half would be in the public
sector, which includes the development works as well, Sir. Yes, more
than half, Sir, Say, about two-thirds, or 60 per cent.
Mr. G~oss: So that you would Say, Sir, that approximately 250 to 300
persons are employed in skills in industry or non-public enterprise in the
northern sector ?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, on the baçiç of my previous estimates; 1think they
are reasonably reliable, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: And what, Sir, is the population of the northern sector?
Mr. KROGH:The population of the northern sector, Sir? 1cannot give
you the exact figure but I think it is approximately half, or just slightly
more than half, Sir.
Mr.G~oss: About ~50,000, approximately?
Mr. KROGH:Approximately, yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Now, with respect to the breakdown in the sheets which
Respondent haç made available to the AppIicants, there is listed in the
categories making up the total of 21,230 the following itemin paragraph
6 (d): Domestic service and laundry-women: number 13,219. Do you
regard these categories as skilled or semi-skilled, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:ASsemi-skilled, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: So that, referring to the southern sector, reducing the
number of 21,230 by approximately 2,000 to 3,000 representing those
estimated for the northern territory, leaving a total of approximately
19,000, of that number 13,200 are in domestic service and laundry-
women, that is correct, Sir,according to these figures?
Mr. KROGH: 1 will Say, yeç.
Mr. GROSS:Leaving a total of non-domestic service and non-laundry-
women of approximately 6,000 (roughly), is that correct, Sir?
Mr. KROGHA : bout 7,000, yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Between 6,000 and 7,000. WouId you Say, Sir, then, ex-
cluding domestic service and iaundry-women and concentrating on
industry, industria1 and mining enterprises, that the total number of
skilIed and semi-skilled-according to these figures you have supplied-
in the southern sector is approximately 6,0007 WITNESSES AND EXPERTS '95
hlr.KROGH 6,000 to 7,000.
&Ir.GROSS Y:es, 6,000 to 7,000.
Mr. KROCH:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROS: And of that total of 6,000 to 7,000,would you indicate
again appro'rimatel (because these figures do not break them down)
how rnany of thoçe go00 to,,O, are engaged in skiiled, as distinct from
semi-skilled occupations in the southern sector?
Mr. KROGH: 1 would Say, Sir, that now that you have excludcd the
main component of those who are regarded as scmi-skilled, it would iiot
Ieave many semi-skilled in the remaining figure, Sir.
1 will have to make another rough estimste, Sir, of the 7,000, having
excluded the main component of semi-skillect workers, numcrically
speaking. 1 would Say about 80 to go per cent.of those of the remaining
7,000coula be regardedas skilled, Sir.
Mr. GROÇS: Now, Sir, in the same category in which is set forth the
domestic service and laundry-women (thetotal of which 1have read irito
the record) there is listed under ite(c) caretaker and cleaner, number
576. Do you regard those as skilled employees, Sir?
Mr. KROGH:NO,Sir, 1 would regard them as semi-skilled.
Mr. GROSS:SOthese are additional semi-skilled to the domestic service,
are they not, Sir?
Mr. KROCH :es,Sir, but the number is onlj76. LVeare talking about
percentages, Sir.
Mr. GROSS :es, 1 do not mean to engage in a debate with you, Sir.
1 am just trying to establish the figures in the record:
Blr. KROGH:Yes, there are quite a number of listed items that are
semi-skilled, Sir, and have never given evidence to indicate that these
only referred to skilIed people, Sir. 1 cannot very well see how you can
take these items out, or not put them in this category. Where else would
you put them? Under labourers? I do not think they come under la-
bourer~, Sir. Theyare definitely semi-skilledSir.
Mr. GROSS:Would you bear with me, Sir, for another question to
which 1 invite your answer. In the same categorization there is the
item (e) under the heading Other Persona1 Service, 287. Do you regard
that category as skilled or semi-skilled?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, that is a heterogeneous category. 1 cannot quite
typify this.1can think of al1sorts of people supplying persona1 services
that can, irtfact,be skilled, Sir. The number, by the way, is287. It 1s
srnaII and1 would Say they include some semi-skilled, Sir,but 1 cannot
say .. .
Mr. GROSS:But you cannot break that down, Sir, as 1 understand it?
Mr. KROGH 287? No, 1 cannot break that dotm.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir. Now, with respect to category 5-IVorker in
transport and communication, sub-paragraph (c) Messenger, numher
437-would you regard that as a skilled or semi-skilled occupation?
Mr. KROGH: Sir, 1 would regard that as semi-skilled, SThe number
again, and ifyou add these allup, would be small, Sir.
&Ir.GROESL :Vell,Sir,that "small" is a relative term.
Mr. KROGH A:bsolutely. 1 indicated that when 1started out, Sir.
Mr. GROSS :es, Sir. Now, the messengers, 437, plus the caretakers
and cleaners, 576,plus 0th persona1 service287 (1 wanted to fix those
figures in your rnind)-now, Sir,with respect to the breakdown of crafts-
men and production worker, still in the general area of which the 21,230 19~ SOUTH WEST AFKICA
'figure is comyosed, that is, paragraph 4, it is headed, Sir, "Craftsmen,
Production WorkerM-that is correct, Sir, iç it not, that characterization
of the document?
Mr. KKOCH T:hat is correct, Sir.
Mr. CROSS : OW,Sir, can the total there-2,040-that is correct, is it
not?
hlr, KROGH:Yes, Sir, according to my notes, Sir.
hlr.GROSS : OW,according to this document, Sir (1 am referring to
have given to the Applicants, Sir. . z,o40? of the document which you
>Ir. KROCH T:hat is correct, Sir. This document is based on notes that
1 extracted from the Bureau of Census and Statistics in Pretoria, Sir.
Rlr. GROSS:Yes, Sir. Now, can you explain to the Court what the
phrase "production worker" signifies, as distinguished from "crafts-
man"?
Mr. KROCH: Sir, this is a term used in industrial censuses, Sir, to
indicate people who have to acquire skill in order to operate machinery,
Sir. This is not quite an economic term but it indicates that these people
operate machines-they are also called "machine operators"-workers
that have to acquire skill. You cannot very well let a labourer, as used
here in this sense, Sir, operate a modern piofemachinery. 1 can give
you an example here-textile and leather workers would be people who
woüld be tailors, for instance, in the textile case, and in the leather case
theywouId be boot-makers, and so forth. This obviously implies, to my
mind, people with skills. You can go on-arpenters, joiners, metal
workers (this wouId include blacksmit hs and workers Iike that). The
carpenters, joiners, etc.,think are quite obviously skilled, and there
are also painters, bricklayers, plasterers, potters and brick workers, Sir.
There are food workers-they would be operating machines in, say, the
fishing industry or in some similar place where machinery is used, Sir.
There are also packers-1 should image that their number is smalland
1 shall not comment on that-and then, also, there are people working
looking for is "equiprnent operators", Sir. operators. The word 1was
This classification is used, by the way, internationally, as a standafd
system to classify the occupational distribution of workers. It is int,
any way, a purely South African way of classifying people working in
different occupations.
Mr. GROSSN :ow, Dr. Krogh, just to clarify your opinion as an expert,
you stated, I believe, the opinion that the figure totals approximately
1,300composed of messengers, persona1service, caretakers and cleaners?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Did you not use the word "negligible"?
Mr. KROGH:NO, Sir, 1 did not say that the number of domestic
servants were negligible. 1 did not Say that.
Mr. GROSS :ir, you have not understood my question properly. 1 am
not referring to r,3oo domestic servants, 1 referred to three specific
categories . . .
Mr. KROGH T:hey do not give you1,300 if you add them, Sir. Never.
Mr. G~oss:Will you bear with me, Sir? 1 tried to fix in your mind
before, just to help to save time when 1 came back to it, messengers
437, other persona1service287 . . .
Mr. KROGH: NO,Sir. 1 did not Say that other personal servi.e.. WlTNESSES AND EXPERTS
197
&Ir.G~oss: 1have not finished my question. Other persona1 servic287,
and caretaker-cleaner, 576.Did you, or did you not, Sir, describe those
figures as negligible or di1misunderstand you, Sir?
Mr. KROGH: Sir,1 did not describe those figures as negligibly srna1l.
said that the nurnber which 1would regard as semi-skilled workers and
which are included in these nurnbers after the domestic service and
laundry women have been excluded-whicli is by farthe greater number
of the semi-skilled-would approximately be 20 to 15 per cent. of the
remainder. That is the difference betweenIOO and the 80and go per cent.
that 1 mentioned earlier on, Sir. Now, ifyou add that up, you will find
that you get about roughljr 1,200, and of those uiider the category "other
personal services" 1 am convinced there are included a considerable
number of workers whom 1 would regard as skilled persons. It does not
follow that the people in that category are in fact semi-skilled jusbe-
cause 1do not know how to break it dom for you, Sir. It would be, let
us say, roughly a thousand persons compared with the remaining number
which we had just now, and it would corne toabout one-eighth or one-
seventh and that would give you approuimately, as 1 said,12 per cent.
or 15 per cent.of the remaining total.
Mr. G~oss: And what tvould be the percentage on a comparable basis
of the craftsmen and production workers to the total?
Mr. KROCH The craftsmen and production workers, Sir, are 2,000 and
1 would regard most of them as skilled workers.
Mr. G~oss: My question to you, Sir: what percentage of the total?
Mr. KROGH: Of what total, Sir? \liehave been working with three
different totals here1 must know which total you refer to.
Rlr. G~oss: You had no difficulty, Sir, arriving aijudgment and a
statement with respect to the former category, a negligibIe proportion,
and you gave a ratio. Now, 1am asking you, Sir,to state in sirnilar terms
the proportion represented to the total by the figureunder craftsmen
and production workers.
&Ir. KROGH: It would be double the percentrtge that 1 gave you for
this other category, for the simple reason tha1see the number is 2,040,
while the other number that 1 worked out as a proportion \vas about
1,000, so this particular categor4 (z,ooo)will t)e double.
The PRESIDENTB : ut the percentage remains the same?
Mr. G~oss: The percentage remains the same. Would you care to say,
Sir,whether you regard this percentage as more or less negligible tlïan
the percentage of the semi-skilled?
Mr. KROGHT : hepercentage does not remain the same, Sir.It is true
we are working with the same total, Sir, but the number added up just
now came to about 1,000 which 1 worked that out as a percentage giving
me about 12 to 15 per cent. Now the present number, 1 see, is 2,000so
the percentage would be double that, Sir.
Mr. GROSS1 :will bring this to a head,Sir, and conclude, if 1may.
IVhat, Sir,if you know, is the distribution by proportion between the
Reserves and the area of the southern sector outside the Reserves, the
distributiori of employrnent in the categories of ci-aftsmen and production
workers?
Mr. KROGH :ir, these figures includthe nori-\mite Reserves in the
Police Zont:, of course, Sir.
Mr. G~oss:We are talking about the southern sector?
Mr. KROGH :es, Sir. It is difficult to give y011an exact figure. 1 have=g8 SOUTH WEST AFBICA
a certain ratio in mind but 1 have to look at the total number of non-
Whites economically activein these areas in order to apply the ratio that
1 have in mind.
Mr. G~oss: Would you approximate the ratio for the benefit of the
Court, on the basis of your kiiowledge?
Mr. KROGH 1:think 1will also use the çame ratio very roughly, Sir,
with regard to the estirnate thate for you in the northern territories.
1 think there would be, leus Say, more than half, that is 60 per cent,
would be semi-skilled, of the total whi1hcannot give you now, while
the rest,0 per cent., would be skilled.
The PRESIDENT W:ould you Say that again?
Mr. KROGHO :f the number of non-White workers that are, in fact,
and could be classified as skilled and semi-skilled and who are working
in the Native Reservcs in the Police Zone, I would Say that about 60
per cent. of them could be regarded as semi-skilland the remaining
40 per cent. as skille1could, if you wish, Sir, estimate with a margin
of error of, saIO to 15per cent. on both sides, what the total number
itself is, from knowledge of the Territory.
>Ir. GROSSA :re you finished, Sir? No1 am afraid that that was not
my question. Perhaps 1misunderstood your response. 1am referring, for
the moment, to 2,040 craftsmen, production workers, listed in documents
you have supplied to the Applicants. Will you state, if you please, Sir,
the approximate ratio,if you do not have the exact numbers, of the
2,040 who are employed in the Native Reserves ofthe southern sec-
tor?
Mr. KROGH S:ir, 1must warn you that 1am not an encyclopaedia. 1
have not got these figures in my min1.have a sense of proportion, Sir,
and can break these down for you, but my estimates are becoming very
rough.
The PRESIDEET W:ell1 supposewe will be able to followit in the end.
roughly be aboutl15toy20hper cent. figure of 2,000 the number would
Mr. GROSSE :mployed in the Native Reserve?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, and 1can tell you how 1arrive at that figure
too, if you would like to have my estimate.
Mr. GROSST :t is not necessary unless the Court wishes to hear it. 1
just wanted tohave the proportion.
hir. KROGH Y:es, Sir.
Mr. GROÇSA : pproximately 20 per cent. of thes...
Mr. KROGH 1:5to20. 1said 15to 20 per cent. and 1was giving you a
range, Sir, to cover my estimate.
Mr. GROSS 1:5to 20 percent. of these craftsmen, production workers
are employed in the Native areas. 1s that what 1 understand you to
mean ?
Mr. KROGH N:O,Sir, in the Native areas in the Police Zone.
hlr. GROSSI:n the Police Zone.
Mr. KROGH T:hat is a rough estimate, Sir.
Mr. GROSSN :ow, just one more question on this Iine. The craftsman,
production worker category, lists, as you have pointed out to the Court,
such trades, such occupations among others as carpenters and joiners,
painters, bricklayers, plasterers and so forth. That is correct, is it not,
Sir?
Mr. KROGH Y:es, Sir. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS I99
Mr. G~ciss: These occupations-are they aniong the occupations to
which the apprenticeship restrictions apply on a racial basis in the
southern sector?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, that would relate to some of tbese trades.
Mr. CROSSA : s to those 1have rnentioned, Sir, al1without exception?
Mr. KROCHS :ir, I will have to recalnow to which particular irades
the apprenticeship regulation has in fact heen proclaimed. 1will have to
recall, Sir, then 1 can tell you. It is on record ;tnd you have it in front
of you.
hfr. GROSS:Well, Sir. 1can cal1your attention and the Court's atten-
tion to the Reply, IV, page 4x9. the footnote of which (and itis undis-
uted in the records) states as follows, under the heading "Racial
6iscrimination in Respect of Admission to Employment and Access to
Vocational Training", that with regard to the building industry the
following trades, for the purposes of the Ordinaiice, have been specified:
"bricklayirig, plastering, carpeiitry, joinery, painting, decorating,
plumbing, sheet metal working, sign-writingand wood-machining." Also,
tocomplete your information on this subject, in footnote 8 on the same
page, inthe rnining industry the occupations for which restrictions have
been madeeffective for thepurposes @ the Ordinance are "blacksmithing,
boilermaking, masonry, carpentry and joineiy, electrician, fitting and
turning, motor mechanic, plumbing and sheet metal working, radio-
electrician, rigging, welding, diesel fitter and upholstering".
Now, Sir, with that information in mind as to the occupations for
which apprenticeship agreements and arrangements are not open to non-
Whites by reason of law, can you Say, Sir, coming back to the figures
you have suppliecl, what industries would provide employment for
carpenters and joiners, let uçsay, in the southein sector?
Mr. KROGH:LVell,Sir, you use carpenters and joiners for other than
the buiIding industry as well, and the figures are not given on an in-
dustrial ba.sis. They appear according to broad types of occupations.
One can also break down into hundreds the type of work done or the
type of occupations under these headings. There is no doubt a number of
people who do iiat, in fact, workin the building industry in the southern
zone, but 1can go further and tell you that exceptions can be and are
granted al1the tirne with regard to the employment of people who would
otherwise, strictly speaking, not be allowed to occupy these reserved
jobs. These exceptions are made allalong by way of permit or permission,
Say, for instance, the building industry,othereuwould not beegaanyganon-
, sector.This would not follow, Sir, and in fac1iknow that there are someite
workin in theçe occupations.
Mr. Ross: One finai question, Sir.With respect to the distribution of
the craftsnian, production worker category, can you advise the Court
what proportion are empIoyed in the Native townships such as Katutura
in the southern sector, as distinguished from the so-called White area?
hlr. KROGH:That isa bitdifficult for me, it is breaking jt down very,
very small.
Mr. GROS: Do you have ariy information witli respect to the subject?
Mr. KROCH N:o,1have not with me, Sir, but 1could supply you with
the information. 1 could imagine that in these places ~vhere buildings
have been erected-houses and so on-prefercrice is given, in fact, to2O0 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
non-White workers to construct and to build these houses; and, jobs, as
1 have explained earlier, are reserved, as it were Sir, for non-White wor-
kers in the non-White townships.
&Ir.GROSS \f'ould itbeaccurate to Say, \vithout reference to figures,
1 do not want to tax your recoiiection about this, that whatever the
reason the larger proportion,the preponderant majority of the occupa-
tions listed under this category, craftsmen andproduction workers, are
actually in the townships or other Xative areas in the southern sector
outside the Reserves?
Rlr. KROGH:1 have to make another estimate, Sir. 1 would Say the
proportion would be approximately . . .
Mr. GROSS:The total as a whole ifyou please, Sir.
Mr. KROGH:Of the 2,000, Sir?
Mr. G~oss: Yes.
Mr. KROGH: 1 would Say roughly, Sir, 40 per cent. in the Native
townships and Say 60 per cent. outside the Native townships. 1 must
point out, Sir, that this is item4 of seven items of category A of an
occupational distribution which covers categoriesA, B and C. Itrefers
to one of four tirnes seven-thatis at least about 30 different sub-groups..
Accordingly, Sir, my estimate would be rather rough. 1 can think of a
lot of otlier of these categories where people work in the Native town-
ships, Sir, that are not mentioned here at the moment. Sir, you have not
got this document or my notes in front of you, and 1just wanted to
point out that weare talking abouta sub-section oa section of a category
in the occupational distribution.
Mr. GROSS:Mr. President, that concludes the cross-examination. May
the Applicants submit this document?
The PRESIDEN T :, Air. Groçs, your case is closed. You wereentitled
to cross-examine upon the document, which you have done. 1 will ask
fiIr3iuller-do you propose to produce the document?
hlr.MULLER: 1 have no objection to it being produced, &Ir.President.
As a rnatter of fact, 1 think it would be advisable.
The PRESIDENTT : hen you should produce it in your case.
Mr. R~ULLER1 : would in the examination.
The PRESIDENT:It will be produced in the case for the Respondent,
Mr. Gross.
Mr. CROSS:That finishes the questions, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT:One or two hlembers of the Court would like to ask
questions-Judge Forster.
Judge FORSTER : Monsieur l'expert, mes questions vous paraîtront
sans doute étre une réédition de celles qui vous ont déjà étéposées A
l'audience. Cela tient au fait que mon esprit n'arrive pas encoàesaisir,
je ne suis sûrement pas encore la bonne longueur d'ondes. Il vous
faudra, Monsieur, vous armer de patience.
Voici ma premiérequestion: si jevous ai bien compris, votre déposition
tend B démontrer l'impérieuse nécessitéde l'apartheid dans le Sud-Ouest
africain, eu égard aux conditions très spéciales qui rhgnent, eu égard
notamment àla situation économique,àl'immense étendue géographique,
à la multiplicité et à la diversité des groupes ethniques, A. la stérile
apathie de I'indighne contrastantavec le dynamique esprit d'entreprise
de l'homme blanc.
Et parmi les bienfaits de l'apartheid, vous citez, par exemple, le régime
foncier qui protege dans les réserves la terre de l'indigène économique- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 201
ment faible contre la convoitise et l'accaparement du Blanc économique-
ment puissant. Est-ce bien cela?
The PRESIDENT :s what correct, Judge Forster. 1do not understand
the question.
Judge FORSTER:Je VOUS demande si j'ai bien compris le sens de votre
déposition.
The PRESIDENT: 1 do not think that a witness can be asked, having
suinmed up evidence which has taken a considerable period of time, is
that the burden of his evidence-there is a great deal of descriptive
language iii the question which is put.1 hope the question will be put in
a more direct form to the witness.
Judge FORSTERL : aquestion directement poséeest celle-ci: est-ce que
je comprends votre déposition en disant qu'elle tend à démontrer l'im-
périeuse nkcessité de l'apartheid dans le Sud-Ouest africain? Est-ce bien
ce que vous avez voulu démontrer?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, I intended to show that taking into consideration
thiç set of conditions you have mentioned that 1 would think in the
interest ofthe economic development and welfare of the population, Sir,
it would bi: in that interest to apply and in fact, to recognize the need
for differeritial protective and promotional measures, Sir. That is the
essence 1think,put popdarly, of my evidence as an economist acquainted
with the conditions in South West Africa, Sir.
Judge FORSTER:Je vous remercie. Voici ma seconde question:
Pouvez-vous me dire en tant qu'expert-éconon~iste si les lois et régle-
ments en vigueur danç le Sud-Ouest africain s'inspirent toujours de ce
souci de protection de l'indigène?
Mr. KROGH:Sir, 1think largely yes, but therc: are certain trades, a1
have pointed out in the course of my evidence, that would aIso operate
protectively with regard to the labour market in the southern sector,
Sir.
But this wonld operate overa muchlarger rangi: of jobs and occupations
with regard to the non-White areas than it operates in fact in respect of
the occupations and jobs in the White sector, Sir. The largest single
other differential or prohibitive measure operates with regard to the
other important production factor, namely land, Sir, and in thls respect
I have no cloubt in telling you, Sir, that it operates virtually completely
and for practical purposes in the interest of protecting the economically
weaker non-White population groups against the acquisition of this
important production factor, namely land, by the economically more
productive and resourceful members of the White sector, Sir..Yes, Sir.
Judge FORSTER: Je VOUS remercie. Voici ma troisième question: vous
est-il possible, toujours en votre qualité d'expert-économiste, de m'aider
à décelerune trace de souci de protection de l'indigène dans le.fait, par
exemple, d'interdire à un indigène parfaitement doué, l'exercice de la
profession d'ingénieur dans telle zone de son propre pays ou bien dans le
fait d'interdireà un Bantou de bonne éducation et de mise correcte de
s'installer danç tel quartier ou de descendre dans tel hôtede son choix,
quartier et hôtel situés dans son propre pays, placé simplement sous
Mandat et nullement annexé?
hlr. KROCH:Sir, with regard to the particular examples you have
given, wouId say that there are no qualified non-White engineers, Sir.
1 have pointed out in my evidence that even the number of White quali-
fied engineers would be a handful-they are srnall in number. 1 ~hould 202 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Say that in the non-White areas, Sir, no doubt preference would be given
to non-?Vhite engineers in the way of employment. 1 would say, Sir, the
same applies to the other examples you have stated. Sir, with regard to
the last part of your question, referring to such terrns as annexation,
mandate, and so on-these are legal terms, 1 take it, Sir, and 1 cannot,
as an economist, give an interpretation to whether this or that is to be
allowed or not aHowed. 1 take it, Sir, you obviously have in mind or
attach a certain meaning or definite rneaning to a term such asa colony,
a rnandated territory, or independent territory.Now 1, as an economist,
do not know, Sir, exactly what is to be understood by these different
- terms. They are not economic terms, they are legal-political, 1 do nat
know what exactly you have in mind, Sir.
Judge FORSTER Je voulais simplement situer les exemples. Je voulais
dire que, ces exemples, je les situais non pas en Afrique du Sud, mais dans
le Sud-Ouest africain, territoire sousandat.
Mr. KROGHY : es, Sir.
Judge FORSTER:Je VOUS remercie. Voici ma quatriéme et derniére
question: il m'a semblé vous avoir entendu plus d'une fois qualifier de
marginale l'incidence des restrictions imposées aux indigénes dans le
domaine de l'emploi et de la protection sociale. Ne pensez-vous pas que .
ce qui semble marginal à l'économistepeut, en rdalité, être capital pour
l'indigène qui tient pour précieux le mérite et la valeur personnels?
Quand ilest avéré que dans le Sud-Ouest africain, le nombre des
sujets d'élite est très restreint, ne pensez-vous pas que le fait de briser
l'élan d'un autochtone exceptionnellement doué est quelque chose de
plus grave qu'un phénomènemarginal? Je ne me place plus au niveau
de l'individu, négligeableà votre gré, mais à celui du groupe ethnique
auquel cet individu appartient. Avez-vous enfin mesuré l'effet temble-
ment démoralisant pour l'Africain (fût-il Bantou)d'entendre le hianda-
taire blanc, chargé précisémentd'accroître le progréssocial des habitants
du Territoire, direà l'élitenoire qui tente par ses capacités de crever le
bas-plafond qui lui phse: "Tout effort dans cette ascension est inutile.
Ici, dans ce secteur blanc, laissez toute espérance. Sinon, vous vous
engageriez dans un cul-de-sac." C'est L votre déposition de l'autre jour
que j'emprunte cette derniére expression. Ces secteurs ne sont-ils donc
pas situés en territoire sous Mandat?
The PKESIDENTW : hat is the question-are tbese situated in a man-
dated territory?
Mr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, they are situated ...
The PRESIDENT : ell, there is no dispute about that. What eIse is in
the question?
Mr. KROGHf:Vhether 1 understood as an ecoiiomist, and have meas-
ured the social-moral welfare aspects other than what we economists
understand as purely economic aspects? We economists cannot measure
these things and nobody else can measure them numerically, Sir.
Econornists regard general welfare as consisting partly of socialelfare,
and part of social welfare is economic welfare, and 1 was speaking in
terms of econornic welfare.'I must admit that we measure economic
welfare rather roughly, but we try to rneasure this by mhat we cal1 the
national income. This is a very, very rough approximation of what we
have in mind, but 1 must admit that this does not cover al1 we would
understand under economic welfare. There is more to economic welfare
than just the national income-this is a very rough indicator-but apart WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 203
from that 1, as an economist, appreciate, and I thitik any economist
should appreciate, that economic weIfare is not in fact the only and sole
consideration. 1 think this would diçtort comp1r:telythe views or values
of any person if you did not have any other welfare conçiderations.
1 think t must expiain to you, Sir, that thiç whole approach, which 1
should Iike to cal1the differential approach, is iriafsolution designed
to serve these very uneconomic values-to give theçe non-economic
values an opportunity to be exercised and in fact tobe enjoyed as part
of total kvelfareunder this particular set of circumstances. The approach
is not only from an economic viewpoint, and 1 am very sorry if I have
given the impression that economic welfare iç the sole and only con-
sideration. These other aspects of general weliare that are not rneas-
urable, and in fact shade off into non-economic welfare considerations
are also ofbasic consideration. It is the very purpose, intent and design
of this policy, given the great parts of South West Africa that have not
been modernized economically yet, to develop the opportunities and
appropriate institutions in these areaç where the élite and the leaders
could in fact not only play a primary role in the pioneering stage, but
also in fact receive al1 the aid, assistance, encouragement that 1 think
anybody could possibly supply to make people, to use a very ordinary
term, happy in the general sense of the word, and not only in the purely
economic cense of the word.
Judge FORSTER :e VOUS remercie. Je n'ai pas d'autres questions.
The PRESIDENTD : oes any other Rlernber of the Court desire to put
ahy questions? Sir Louis.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO D:r. Krogh, 1want toreferto your evidence
yesterday, and 1am referring to page 178,supra, of the verbatim record
of yesterday's proceedings. You said in answer to a question, and 1 now
read what you said :
"But 1 know that it is part of the policy, and 1have evidence to
show, and 1 am quite content, that they are trying to spread the
modern economic activities to areaswhere the differentpopulation
groups, of the members of these different population eroups, can
live and work, be born and die, without necessanly having to corne
into contact with the rnernberç of other population groups."
LVouldyoii clarify that staternent-doeç it apply, for instance, to the
southern scctor, where you have groups living within the same limit or
the same atea?
hlr. KROGH:Yes, Sir, this is clearly illustrated in the proposed new
homelands of the Odendaal Commission. Yes, 1 would apply thiç to the
southern çector aç well. As you very well know, Sir, an enlargement of
particular homelands, if 1 recollect correctly, has in fact been proposed.
And, when 1was in the Territory 1 think a large number of White farmç
have in fact bcen bought by public money and given gratuitously to the
no doubt have to be consolidated in duc course and enlarged, townships
are in the blueprint stage and being estabIished and developed in these
areas. Yes, Sir, the idea is, very briefly, to give the different population
groups as inany economic opportunitieç as the).could possibly occupy,
administer, organize and deveIop, and in thiï way make them less
economically interdependent. It iç important to rcmember that in the
case of South Wcst Africa the greatest depende~ice iç on exports, not on204 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
the market in the Territory. The latter, Ithink it is very misleading-
many people think of South Weçt Africa as a highly integrated domestic
econorny. The modern economy of South West Africa is more integrated
with foreign economies by way of export, technical assistance and so on
than it is to my mind integrated with what 1 have called, very loosely,
the traditional economy.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO :What 1want to find out is, is it the intention
that each group should be economically self-sufficient?
Mr. KROGH:NO,Sir,on the contrary,but it will be largely dependent
not on the other group but on the outside world.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO W:hat 1am trying to get clear in my mind
iç what would be the relationship between the different groups. You talk
in terms of separate economies ...
hlr. KROGH Y:es, but the fact that1Say separate economies does not
mean that these economies are self-sufficient. 1mean, for example, Great
Britain is not self-sufficie...
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO :Zrhatwould be the relationship of the two
in terms of labour and market?
Mr. XROGH: In terms of the market, I think rhat the major part of ,
the production, as in the southern sector at the moment, if you look at
the national income figures, 80-go per cent. of it is in fact produced for
export, not for local consumption, so that the percentage that is destined
for the local market is negligibly small.%th regard to the labour situa-
tion, 1think that you could very well çee that White workerç, skilleand
possibly managers too, would be allowed by a particular non-IVhite
group to enterits territory to do jobs there on a temporary basis, if they
so prefer. There would no doubt be some of these people, just as in other
African territories. In tropical Africa today, most of the formulation of
economic development plans-and 1can very well ima ine the execution
of these plans as well, requires highly technical and s illed peoplwho
originate, as it were, from outside tropical Africa, and 1 know that if
many of these plans that are in the blueprint stage are to be executed,
very rnany more will have to be imported from outside. So 1 can very
well imagine that there would be White skilied people working in these
areaç, but this would be subject to the wisheç or approval of this partic-
ular group-if it does not want White workers there, then it decides, in
fact, for me as an economist, that it places priority on other values than
purely economic development values. Whereas, another group rnight
quite well choose to have these foreign people working there, helping
them, being employed by them, in occupations that cannot, at that stage,
be manned by members of its own group.
In that case, it would indicate to me as an economist, that these people
prefer, compared to the other group 1 have mentioned earlier, Sir,
economic development before, for instance, the factor of Africanization
or having its people do that work even if they were not fully qualified to
the same extent. This would be the wish of the people.
Judge SirLouis MBANEFO : Soif you use that phrasewithout necessarily
having to corne into contact with the members of other population
groups you visualize a situation lvhere there coiild be no interchange of
Iabour between the two groups.
Mr. KROGH N:O, Sir. said, not necessarily.1do not visualize a situa-
tion where there cannot be any interchange of labour. On the contrary,
to the extent that you Say you have a receiving group and to the extent WITNËSSES AND EXPERTS So.s
that this group prefers to receive these foreign workers to have them
work there just as they would in tropical Africa, that would, in fact, be
allowed, a:: it is in the case of Ovamboland at this very moment, Sir.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO B:ut they do not want to receive them?
Mr. KRCIGH Ifthey do not want to receive them then it is their choice
to do eitht:r with or without tliem and therefore prefer, for instance, a
lower Ievel of living, or to sacrifice develolrment efforts for the preference
of not having these foreign people there. Or, they can decide to Africanize
-that means putting people into these jobs of their own group in this
particular case. It couldvery well happen, Sir, that they could put in
people who are less qualifieci but of their own group to hold a job that
could be better done, economically speakiiig, more productively by Say
a member of anotller group. To me this would indicate that they prefer,
in their set.of values, rather to have this situation than to have the more
productive situation, letus Say in this particular example. This to me
would mean that they do not regard the occupation of a particular job
by the mo;t efficient worker ...
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO 1:am thinking in t.erms of groups that you
have spoken about. You have these two, or scvei-algroups, and the aim is
that each should be able to live, work and die without necessarily having
to come into contact with the members of other population groups?
Mr. KRC~GH ':res,Sir.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFON :ow that assumes complete separatioii in
the econonlic field?
Mr. KROGH : O, Sir.It meanç "not necessarily". It means to the
extent that these jobs cannot, at this stagebe done by members of this
particulargroup.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO But then it would operate both ways?
Mr.KRCIGK ïes, Sir,of course. Iam just taking the one example for
ÿou on the one side. Yes, it would operate bath ways. This docs not
mean that you will now be allowed to work in the other sector if this
other group would, in fact, let you come and woi:k there, or if they would
feel that this wouid be to thei; own economic advantage to have you to
work there, because they, 3t this stage,have not got somebody qualified
to man the job, or if they have sornebody qualified he does not do the
job as productively as the one from the other group. They can decide
this, as this is, in fact, decided internationally among national States, but
the idea is that they must not think in terms of national States, this is
an African problem. If you think in terms of national States you think
of Great Britain, France or the Netherlands, alid so forth. But thisisa
problem pi-culiar to Africa and, 1 should say, taking into consideration
this particular setof circumstances as in South West Africa, an "inter-
national" soIution on a miniature scale. That does not mean that the
members of one group may not work in the jobs of another group. And,
1 can tell you, Sir, that there are, 1shave tried to explain, many non-
Whites working at the moment in fhc White sector, but more jobs are
being crea1:edand the whole modern economy is being expanded at both
points. Urban areas and so forth are being estahlished and developed in
these areas outside what we have called the White area (thus far1 think
we understand each other there) to create opportunities there and to
encourage the occupation of these opportunities by members of the non-
White groiips.
Judge Sir Louis MBAKEFO F:inally, then, could yoii Say that, as far as 206 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
one can foresee in the future, both groups would still have need of each
other in the economic field?
Mr. KROGH: Yes, Sir.1 would think that, from a purely economic
viewpoint (but this excludes social considerations) it would be in the
economic interest of one group to, in fact, employ members of the other
group if the members of the other group want tobe employed by the
members of this other group.
The PRESIDENT D:oes any other Member of the Court desire to put a
' question to the witness? Ifnot, Mr. hluller.
Mr. MULLER: Thank you, Mr. President. 1have no questions to put
to the witness, al11should Iike to do is to ask that he identifies the copy
of his notes, which he has before him and upon which he has been cross-
examined by my learned friend, Mr. Gross, sthat that can become part
of the record.
The PRESIDENT Th:ere is no objection, Mr.Gross?
Mr. GROSS : O, Sir.
The PRESIDENTV : ery well, thamay be done. I think the Court will
now recess for 20minutes and then, upon the resumption of the hearing,
you 1541c1al1your next witness, &Ir.Muller. 1sthat correct, Sir?
Mr. MULLER: Yes, I shall,Mc. President. May I ask that Professor
Krogh be excused from attendance if there are no further questions to
be put?
The PRESIDENT M:r. Gross, Sir, have you any objection to the witness
being released from further attendance?
hlr.GROSS N:O,Sir.
The PRESIDENT Unlcss it is indicated by mid-day that there is any
further need for the witness to remain, he will be excused from further
attendance.
Mr. MULLER: 1 thank you, Nr. President.
The PRESIDEN :Thlr.Muller.
Mr. MULLER :r. President, the next witnesswill be Mr. Pepler and
his evidence will also concern the issues raised under the Applicants'
Submissions 30s. 3 and 4. \Vehave indicated to the Applicants that his
evidence willbe directed to the follocvingpoints, and 1 quote from the
letter o22 September 1965 addressed to the Agent for theApplicants:
"(1) The different agro-economic regions of South West Africa.
(2) Schemes and methods applied in the promotion of economic
development of the said regions particularly in the field of
agriculture.
(3) The reasons for differential treatrnent (in the economic develop-
ment), of the areas occupied by the different population
groups l."
May 1 explain, RIr. President, although 1 have indicated that his
evidence will be directed, inrlia,to the different agro-economic regions
of South West Africa, that we have had evidence on that point by
ProfessorLogan. It isnot my intention that thatevidence be repeated
and hlr. Pepler will devery shortly only with the agricultural activities
amongst the different population groups inthe Territory.
hlay 1 ask that Mr. Pepler corne forward and make both the declara-
tionsas witness and as expert.
lSee XII,PartIV. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
The PRESIDEST L:et the declarations be made.
hlr.PEPLER :n my capacity aswitness 1 solemnly declare upon my
honour and conscience that 1 will spcak the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth. Imy capacityas expert 1 solemnly declare upon
my honour and conscience that my statement will be in accordance with
my sincere belief.
Air.MULLER: Mr. Pepler, your full names are Louis Andreas Pepler,
is that correct?
Mr. PEPLER : es, Sir.
Mr. MULLER :OUhold the Bachelor of Science degree in Agriculture
of the University of Pretoria?
hlr.PEPLER: Yes, Sir.
Mr. MULLER W:hat is your preçent position?
MT. PEPLSR: Directorof Bantu Development , Sir.
Mr. MULLER: Have you held any other positions in government
service?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir. 1was in the Department of Agricultural Tech-
nical Services up untii1941; and from 1941I was appointed Super-
intendent of the Orange River Irrigation Schemes and the Loskop
Irrigation Schemes until194g. At the end of 19Iwas Chief Professional
Officer in the De~artment of Bantu Administration and Development,
Where 1ultirnatdy became Director of Agriculture and in 196; I was
appointed Director of Hantu Development.
&Ir. MUI,LER : ould you tell thc Court what your functions are as
Director of Bantu Development?
Mr. PEPLER : es, Sir. Rly main function is to draw up deyelopment
plans for the different Bantu authoritiesin respect of their physical
development as well as their socio-economic development, particularly
in their different home areas.
1 also have to budget for these development plans.
Secondly, one of my functions abo is to CO-ordinateith the different
Departments which also deal with development work, for instance, the
Department of Water Affairs for the dcvelopinent of water schemes,
irrigation schemes, etc., and alstheDcpartmcnt of Commerce, Trade
and Industry, for trade and industrial development ithe homelands.
Thirdly, 1have to determine the priorities of these different tasks that
have been designed.
Fourthljr,1 have to do the CO-ordinationin niyDepartment, in order
to see that the works are carriecl out and implemented in the way that
they were designed.
And fifthly, I have to see to the proper irnplementation of those
plans.
Mr. MULLERD : O the functions which you have just mentioned also
extend to the Territory of South West Africa?
Mr. PEPLER : es, Sir.
hlr. MULLER:DO YOU, in addition, servein other advisory capacities
and representative capacities?
hlr.PEPLER: Yes, Sir. I am also a Director of the Bantu ~nvestment
Corporation; 1 am a member of the Natural Resources Development
Council in the Republic of South Africa; 1 am Chairman of an Inter-
Departmental Committee for the Planning and Development of the
Bantu Hotnelands; 1 am a member of the Permanent Committee for the
DeveIopment of Border Industries; I am Vice-Chairman of an Inter-208 SOUTH WEST APRICA
Departmental Cornmittee for Mining Development in the Homelands;
and 1also serve on various interdepartmental ad hoc committees.
>Ir. MULLER H:ave you represented South Africa at international
confereaces relating to agricultural matters?
Ur. PEPLER: Yes, Sir. 1 represented South Africa in Madagascar in
1957.1 also represented South Africa in Guinea, in Morocco, in Ethiopia,
Mozambique and also in Tunisia. These were conferences on agricultural
matters as well as for the economic conferences for Africa.
Mr. MULLER:Am 1 right in saying that you have an intimate know-
Iedge of the practical methods of development of the Bantu peoples,
particularly in the agricultural field?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir.
Mr. MULLER :hat is both in South Africa and South West Africa?
&Ir.PEPLER:Yes, Sir.
Mr. MULLER: Can you give the Court a very brief description of the
agricultural activitiesof the different population groups in South West
Africa?
Mr. PEPLER:Nr. President, as has been indicated, a fairly extensive
description has already been given in the Coilnter-Mernorials of the
geographical features of South West Africa. 1 therefore propose to deal
mainly with the agricultural features in South West Africa.
As is commonly known, South West Africa is divided into the northern
sector and the southern sector, commonly known as the Police Zone.
With your permission, Mr. President, 1 shaI1 start with the northern
sector.
In the west of the northern sector we find first of ala portion of the
Namib Desert, and adjoining that is the Kaokoveld. Now the rainfall in
the Kaokoveld is not very high and the agricultural activities there are
mainly confined to pastoral farming. In the first instance the Kaokoveld
is inhabited by the Herero people-they are divided into three tribes-
who niainly practise stockfarming. The live-stock there consists of cattle,
sheep and goats. These cattle are very well-framed animals and are of a
superior type to the cattle that one finds, for instance, in Ovamboland.
The grazing isof a good type; it is sweet veldt grazing, and the carrying
capacity isnot very high. There are stock diseases in the area, mainly
lung sickness, and anthrax isalso found in the area. Those are the main
diseases found.
Then, as far asagriculture itself is concerned, it is not practised in the
Kaokoveld-not dry land agriculture. The-ce are quite a number of
permanent springs to be found in the Kaokoveld, where people practise
irrigation farming on small holdings. They mostly produce tobacco and
vegetables.
Now, to the east of the Kaokoveld, one finds Ovamboland. Ovambo-
land is known for its flatness; the rainfall increases again from west to
east.1 would Say the average rainfall in Ovamboland is around about
16 inches. The Ovambo people are divided again into approximately
eight tribes.They practise mixed farming. They are domiciled mostIy in
the central part ofOvamboland, not ço much in the south-eastern part
and the eastern part of Ovamboland. As I have indicated, they practise
mixed farming; they keep cattle, goats and sheep. These cattleare much
smaller and smaller-framed than the cattle found in Kaokoveld. This
rnust be ascribed to the fact that one findç not only lung sickness there,
other than tick-borne diseaseç, but also interna1 parasites and liver fluke, WITNESSES AND EXPERTS =O9
and 1 ascribe the smaller size of those cattle to the fact that they have
adapted tliemselves to the climatic conditions.
As far as crop farming is concerned, they grow different varieties of
crops in a very peculiar way. They apply the mound system, that is they
work up the sand in mounds and they plant the seed in those mounds.
In other words, they more or less practise a hydrophonic form of agri-
culture. They grow mainly kaffircorn, muhango and maize-those are
the three main crops that theyare growing. Neai:the residentialsites, and
within the boundaries of the residential sites, they also grow tobacco
and vegetables, and things of that nature. There.is no irrigation practised
except eqienmental irrigation-plots that have been laid out.
Next, we corne to the Kaokoveld-that lies again to theeast of Ovam-
boland.
Nr. NULLER:1 am sorry, you have mentioned that the KaokoveId is
lying to the east ...
Mr. PEPLER:1 am sorry, $Ir. President. The Okavangoland lies to the
east of 0v;imboland. There one finds the general vegetal cover isdifferent
from Ovamboland, in this respect, that it has more indigenous trecs and
one finds savannah country. It is inhabited by the Okavango people,
who are also divided into approximately five different tribes. They farm
mainly with cattle and goats. It is peculiar that they do not farm with
sheep at all. Now, these cattle are also better framed and they can be
compared with the type of cattle that one finds in the Kaokoveld,
although one can see that exotic breeds have been introduced in the past
and one firids quite avariety oftypes of breeds in Okavangoland.
The predominant diseases to be found there amongst the cattle are
also lung sickness, tick-borne diseases and parasitic diseases. They grow
crops fairly extensively, narnely maize, kaffircorn,'and other crops along
the banks of the Okavango River. They practist: this form of agriculture
mainly alcing the banks of the river and not towards the south. They
have also started practising irrigation farrning on a small scale and on
that irrigation scheme-the Vungu-Vungu irrigation scheme particularly
-they are growing a variety of crops now. This is, Imust state specifi-
cally, still in the experimental stage.
Now from Okavangoland we are going towards the east. Crossing the
Okavango river, one finds Western Caprivi, which is a smaller area. It
is approximately 600,ooo hectares in extent. It is savannah, mainly
bushveld country, and it isinhabited by a comparatively small number
of bushmen.
Further on to the cast, across the Linyanti River, one finds Eastern
Caprivi, which is inhabited by two different tribes. They practise mainly
cattle farnling and srnaII stock farming in a verv small way. Their cattle
are also of a better-framed type and they also have different diseases
amongst their cattle, the main and predominant disease being nagana
or sleeping sickness. Foot-and-mouth disease also occurs there, which
normally has to be combated in Caprivi.
They also grow crops. Their crops are grown niainly along the Kwavdo
River which lies towards the south of Eastern Caprivi. They grow maize,
kafircorn and muhango, and then one finds tliat they also grow some
vegetables, but mainly tobacco. They do not practise irrigation farming
at al1in that area.
Now, MI-. President, 1 have indicated what 1 cal1the northern sector,
that is, the sector exclusivelv reserved for the Native peoples of South210 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
West Africa. Those people (that is in al1the different areas which 1have
described now) own approximately two-thirds of the total cattle popula-
tion belonging to the Native peoples in South West Africa and they
constitute about 54.5per cent. of thetotal Native peoples of South West
Africa.
Now, Mr. President, if we come tothe southern sector that is inhabited
by both Whites and non-Whites. If 1 can confine myself to the non-
Whites again-in the case of the non-LWites, they are scattered right
from the south of South West Africa both towards the east and the west
and right up to almost the northern boundary of the Police Zone in 18
different Reserves that have especially been reserved for them. Now, if
you will permit me, 1 will start in the south. Again, the southern areas
have a very Iow rainfall, the rainfall increasing gradually from the south
towards the south-east. The lowest rainfall is right in the southern areas,
dong the Orange River, and at one Reserve called Bondels it is approx-
imately z inches per year. It increases very gradually upto a line, more
or less to Mariental, where the rainfall is approximately 10-12 inches a
year.
Now, these people confine thernselves tosmall stockfarming only. They
keep mainly goats, sheep (non-wool sheep), aswell as a small percentage
of wool-, and karakul sheep. They also keep mules, donkeys and horses,
mostly for conveyance purposes.
Now, these people in this particular sector that 1 am talking about
have already entered a certain form of .. .if1 may revert back to the
northern sector, in that sector those people rnostly practise the traditional
subsistence form of farming and here in the lower portion they have
already entered to a certain extent or let me put it this way, some of
them, have already entered into the exchange or money economy, that
is a market economy.
In the central part, that is if one takes a line from Mariental up towards
the north of Windhoek, towards Epukiro and Okahandja, then one
finds that mixed farming is practised there. It is also a pastoral area, but
there it also becomes savannah country and one finds cattle as wcll as
srnall-stock farming. There they also go in for goats, non-wooled sheep,
cattle and, to a certain extent, a few karakul sheep. They also keep
donkeys, horses and mules but, as 1 stated, inostly for conveyance
purposes.
Then one comes to the northern part, that is up towards the Police
Zone boundary. There the rainfall does increase and particularly in the
east of Okarara, i.e., in Otjituuo and those parts, rnixed farrning can be
practised, but on account of the irregularity of the rainfall and so on,
crop farming isonly practised on a very small scale, the predominant
farming being cattle farming. Towards the west, that isSesfontein and
Fransfonteln and those parts, one findssmall stock mostly, but they also
go in for cattle farming. The stock diseases found there are most com-
monly diseases like anthrax-just the common diseases which normally
have to be combated-but there is no lung sickness or foot-and-mouth
disease found there, except again in the east, where one finds that foot-
and-mouth disease sometimes occurs; it mainly cornes from across the
borders of Bechuanaland on that side.
Now, if we revert to the European sector, the White sector, one finds
the same pattern of farming from the south again. These people farm
mainly with karakul sheep. They also keep goats and they have an WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 211
improved goat type there. The karakul farming is a specialized form of
farming whch is practised by the White farmcrs and they, on account
of the fact that they have done a lot of fencing and paddocking and so
on, do keep cattle too. The cattle are of really good quality.
Towards the centre again cattle dominate in the farming system
although one does find karakul sheep, goats, wool and non-wool sheep
there. Towards the northern sector, particularly towards the north-east,
that is in the Crootfontein and Tsumeb areas, mixed farming is practised,
The main crops being grown there are maize and kaffircorn. Cattle
farming is also practised there. Now, in the IVhite sector they are
definitely practising an exchange economy, that is a money economy,
already very extensively.
Mr. NULLER: Having descnbed the agriciiltural activities of the
various population groups, can you tell the Court whether, in prornoting
agricultural developrnent, differential methods are applied as between
the various population groüps?
Mr. PEPLERY : es,indeed, Mr. President. Various methods are prac-
tised, or differential methods are applied, not only between the White
people and the non-White people, but also as amongst the non-Whites
themselves.
Mr. AIUI.LER W:hat are the reasons for such differential methods?
Mr. PEPLERh :lr.President, the main reasons I would Say are that
they have reached different stages of developrnent. As 1 have already
indicated, the Whites are practising an exchange economy, that is, a
money economy, whereas the non-Whites are inainly, and 1 emphasize
the word "mainly", practising the traditional subsistence economy.
SecondIy, they cliffcrin their traditions, theicidtures and their ways of
life. And thirdly, they have different conceptions of property and land
rights.1 would describe those to be the main reasons, Sir.
Mr. MULLER:NOW,will you very briefly describe to the Court the
different methods employed in developing the country agriculturally,
that is, the different methods that are applied amongst the different
population groups?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Mr. President. In dealingwith this question 1would
put it this way. With your permission 1 shall firçt deal with the White
sector and then with the non-White sector, but iriprefacing these remarks
1 first of al1 want to indicate that the European farmers are practising,
are definitely practising,an exchange economy. They have to pay for
their land, cither in cash or they can obtain loans for this. In the case
of the non-imites, they still have the traditionid system of land tenure,
i.e., land is provided for the different groups and in their own intereçts
they may nat dispose of that land, whereas the \Vhite man can dispose
of hiç farm if he wants to. l
In respect of the methods and the assistance given, the White farmers,
once they have acquired a farm, must take the initiative themselvcs in
planning and developing that farm. Theÿ must provide the funds for al1
improvemcnts. If they want to bWld a house thep must provide the 1
funds for it.Ifthey want to establiçh water points and provide water for
the stock as well as for domestic purposes, they must finance those
things. Ifthey want to put up fences or roadsor whatever has to be done
on a farm it must be done by themselves. If tliey want any extension
services, that is, agiculturaladvice in connection nith the development
of the farms, they can get it free of charge from the Administration, butSIS SOUTH WEST AFRICA
they must also takethe initiative in asking for advice which is then given
to them inconsultation and after proper examination of the land, etc. If
they want to go in for crop farming, for instance, they rnust provide
the seed, they must get advice about what varieties of seed they must
get, what improved varieties thep must get, fertilizers that must be
purchaçed and theçe must be acquired by themselves. They musi nlço
accept full responsibility for the marketing of their products. In cases of
drought, when relief is brought to these people they must definitely pay
for whatever relief was brought to them and it is repayable with intcrest.
Furthermore, Mr. President, they have to pay taxes towards the general
advancement of South \I7cst ACrica.
In the case of the non-Wliitcs, Sir, both in the northern and southcrn
sector, the approach is exactly the same and the methods applied are
exactly the same except that 1 must indicate that whatever improve-
ments are brought about, or whatever development projects are brought
to them, are brought in the closest collaboration and consultation with
the leaders of the different national groups. That is very important, Alr.
President, and 1 wiçh to stress it. The officials are specially traincd to
deal with them. If the Native people want any advice these officials are
at their disposal, but, as1have indicated in the case of the \Vhites, they
naturally have to ask for assistance if they want it. 1 am now talking
about extension services. In the case of the n0n-i4~hites the extension
officers visit them, they consult with them, they advise them, they guide
them but they will not attempt lo undertake any improvcments without
having intluced the leaders of the people to accept the devclopment
proposals that they do put to them. Now, al1improvcments, Mr. Presi-
dent, that are then broilght about are given by the Administration or
the Mandatory to them. For instance, fencing: if they agrec tu fences
being put up, the fencing material is provided; they provide the labour
for putting up those fences but they are paid for the work done. AI1
improvements, Rlr. President, particularly water-as is comrnonly
known, in South Ii'est Africa water is very scarce and. expensive to
obtain-these water points are brought here in the form of either dams
or bore-holes and the Rcserves are developed that way at no expense to
them. For the sale of stock, when they are induced to sel1stock, sale pens
are erected for them and whatever other irnprovements are necessary
are provided for. They are advised about agriculture when mised farming
is practised. Good or improved seed varieties are brought to them; ihey
are given those free of charge. In the case of stock diseases-1 have
indicated already stock diseases are prevalent in almost every territory-
these are combated by officialsfrom the Mandatory or the Administration
and al1inoculations are done for them.
Then, in the case of drought relief, they are given this maiiily in the
form of foodbrought to thcm. If there is a shortage of food for thc stock
this is aIso provided for. They are, however, expected to do some work
in order to get foodstuffs. It is not given to them absolutely free of
charge or handed out sothat they can just cal1for it and get it.
That approach, Mr. President, 1 takeit that everybody will appreciate
it, is a psychological one to assist these people in developing themselves.
Now, as far as taxes are concerned, they do not pay any taxes escept for
tribal levies which are imposed by their own leaders for their own funds,
but they do not pay other taxes.
Sir, with this background 1 would like to explain, with your permis- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 213
sion, thatit is for these specific reasons th1am an officia1today of the
Department, of what we cal1 in the Republic, Department of Administra-
tion and 11eveIopment. Ive have the Department of Agricultural Tech-
nical Services for the ilhite sector and originally, that is, many years
ago, this Department of Agriculturai Technical Services served both
Whites and non-Whites as far as agricultural services are concerned. But
it was found that it was so important for the development of the non-
White groups that a special Department shoulcLbe creaied, with a very
strong division of agriculture in this Department to serve the non-White
people exclusively as far as the promotion of agriculture in their areas is
concerned. This Department is staffed with a strong professional, as
well as technical staff.
Now, if 1may just add,as far as improvements are concerned, which
1 have already referred to, these are effected through them exclusively
for their exclusive use; the Whites are not allowed to use whatever irn-
provements have been made in their sector or in their differcnt reserved
areas. For instance, 1 have been taIking about the irrigation scheme in
Okavangoland. More irrigation schemes will be established which will be
for their exclusive benefit. Whatever cattle improvement schemes are
undertaken are for thcir exclusive benefit.
Ifyou will permit me, Mr. President, to mention thisin the case of the
Republic, where we have advanced further already, there are quite a
number of exotic plantations. A few iiundred thousands of acres of such
plantations are a1ready established in the homelands for the exclusive
use and benefit of the people themselves. There are quite a number of
irrigation schemes which have been established for their exclusive use.
Other schemes have been established in a similar rnanner, e.g., large
fibre schemes, such as New Zealand hemp and sisal schemes, and 1 am
just thinking at this moment of a jute project which has been started in
Okavangoland, which will alsaagain, be for the exclusive use and benefit
of those people.
Mr. MULLER : r. Pepler, you stated that different methods are ap-
plied for tlie promotion of agriculture also as hetween the Native popula-
tion groups. UTouldyou briefly indicate to the Court how these different
methods are ap~iliedand the reasons?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Mr. President. In the case of thesc different groups
that we are dealing with now, within the non-White people, one must
again indicate tliat different methods are applied because they, arnongçt
themselves, have reached different stages of development and for that
specificreason the approach must also be different.
If you will permit me, Ah-.Preçident, there again 1 want to indicate,
as 1 have already indicated, that a special agricultural division was
created in the Department 1 am representing, but in this particular
instance tlie professional and technicaleople who deal with the agricul-
tural aspects are not only agriculturalists in the sense that they are
dealing exclusively with the agricultural aspect, they are also specially
trained to know andtake account ofthe traditional customs of the people
themselves. In other words, they must understand the people; they must
know theii- ways of life, before they approach them.
If you will further permit me, 1 must illustrate what 1really mean by
that. Different peoples have different customs. There are, for instance,
Rapedi tribes which have cattle kraals where their beasts are commonly
kept. They have a common custom that if the head of that famiIy dieszr4 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
the head is buried in the kraal and they have a sacred belief that by
burying the head of that family in the kraal, then the kraal will be
blessed, the anirnals will berolific and they will progress in that respect.
Now, if one is not aware of that belief which we respect, wliichwe can
see is really sacred to them, if one does not appreciate that or one does
not know about it, one would be inclincd to go walking into a cattle
kraal of this nature and have a look at the anirnals as an agriculturalist,
which will really be against their traditions, because as the kraal is
sacred to them they are opposed to any strangers entering their kraals
when their beasts are there. Strangers can only come there on invitation
and only once they have been invited and allowed to enter that kraal
can they go in. If matters of that type are not known and not respected,
then one can so easily go wrong in one's extension services and methods
in attempting to apply approved agricultural methods with these peaple.
Another factor which is very important in the promotion of agriculture,
as far as the officials are concerned, is that we must accept that they
have reached thesc different stages of development and development
must therefore not be revolutionary, it must be evolutionary, because
then it will be more acceptable to them. Now, if I may quote a few
exarnples just to illustrate what 1 am trying to explain, hlr.President.
If we take in South \Vest Africa the case of the Rushmen. We know that
the 13ushman is nornadic, we know that he is a hunter, he is a gatherer
of food; he is not accustomed to living a settled life. iVhat would the
approach bein a case like that? It is nogood trying to find them, wherever
they are, and saying we are offering you a few cows, we bring you some
cattle or we want to tell you how to cultivate or till the soil. The first
step would be to create a few water points because of the scarcity of
water in the areas in which they norrnally roarn, induce them to come
to these water points and live a more settled life. Once one has reached
that stage where they begin to get confidence in the officialsand see that
they have brought the water for them and they are not harming them,
and so on, they begin to gather there andthe next step willbe to bring
stock such as goats, to show thern the goats, to show them the benefit
of the goats and to show them that they can use the milk of the goats,
and soon. Then the next step will be to bring a few cattle-a few cows-
and to assist them in the miiking of the cows and that sort of thing and
show them that they can utilize thatmilk. The next step will be to use
provided, and to plant some vegetables and show them the advantages of
the growing of vegetables and how they can live a more settledlife. Now
that would be the technique of approach in the case of the Bushmen.
In the case, again, of the Ovarnbo, where he is already practising a
more advanced stage of agriculture, although it is still an elementary
forrn of agriculture but a more advanced stage than the group 1 have
just been describing the approach will be different in this sense, that one
will not know that they are both cattle famers and practising crop-
farming. So, one can approach them on the thing which one knows \dl
be acceptable to them. Now what willbe themost acceptable tu them?
Will it be stock farming owillit be crop-fiiming? In the case of Ovambo
one would Say that it would definitely be stock farming, that is, to try
and improve, or persuade and induce them to improve, the type of
stock that they have.
By studying the agro-ecological conditions, Mr. President, one realizes WITNESSES AND EXPERT3 215
that these animals haveadapted themselves to prevailing conditions and
that it might be very harmful to introduce exotic breedç, but one can
start offby explaining to them that they can combat diseases, because
some diseases are prevalent in Ovamboland one has to teach thern and
tryto indiice thern to Save their cattle by combating the disease, by the
applicatio~i of prophylactic treatment.Inthis they might be interested.
Actually we have succecded in that respect. We have explained those
thingsto them and they have accepted it. They have reached the stage
where they are interested, but they have not yet reached the stage where
they are prepared to dispose of their stock, to sel1 it and to enter a
market economy as far as stock is concerned.
The next step would be, again, as far as the i:rops that they groare
concerned, to indicate to them the low fertilitof the sand that they are
working up in mounds and that itcould be fertilizedby the addition of
kraal manure, and also that yields could be increased by the use of
improved seed varieties.This they have already accepted, but it was on
account of the approach. The approach \vas not that of teiiing them that
they must sel1 al1 their stock because if droughts come and so on the
stock will die, it waç to try to induce them to combat the diseases and
to try to induce them to use better seed varieties and to use kraal
manure.
In tlie case of the Herero people again, who are mainly cattle farmers,
they have already reached the stage where they have entered into the
market eronomy. They are alrcady selhng cattle. Now that is riot a
difiîcult taskOne's approach shouId be to induce them to use improved
stock, use irnproved sires, so as to improve the quality of their stock.
This they are readiiy accepting. They are already using tbese improved
çires. Not al1 of them, but some of them are already doing it, and the
approach there would be from the stock angle. You see, they are pastor-
alists and i:attle farmers-theapproach $vasfrom that aspect and they
have accepted it, but one must also take into account in introducing
these improved animals that they are also still superstitiousabout
certain things. For instance, thcy are superstitious about the polled
animal, so it iç no good bringing an Aberdeen Angus to thern because it
will just not be acceptable to thern. The same as far as certain colours
of cattle are concerned, they are prejudiced against certain colours, or
superstitious, if I may use that word, so ia spccific breed of colour not
acceptable to them, although it may be of an improved b~eed,is brought
to thern, they ~111not accept it. Now, Sir, 1 think 1 have cited a few
examples ...
Mr. MULLER :think that is sufficientMr. Pepler. Can you say from
your experience whether the policj~which you have just explained, that
rs, diffcrential treatment, rnethods of developmcnt, has given good
results?
Mr. PEPIXR : r. President, yes, 1definitely tliink it has brought good
results and progress to a certain extent. I1rnay revert to the Bushmen
-1 cited the approach just now-as far as success is concerned I can
report that quitea number of thern are already living a fairly settled life;
in Tsumkure for instance, a fairty large number of them are living a
fairly sett-led liand they have already accepted the goat ; they haye
already reached the stage where they are building kraals for thew
goats. At other similar posts they have already :icccpted cattle,theyare
milking co~vsnow, andthey are living a more settled life. They have even216 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
reached the stage now where they are growing vegetables and so on,
and making use of these vegetables. They have actually reached the
stage, as faras cows and goats are concerned, whcre they have developed
a pride in these animals, andthey have their own number wkich they put
round their neck, and they put the same number on their goat which
they regard as theirs and which they look alter; so 1 think that is
definitely some progress that could be reported, Mr. President-a iittle
achievement, if 1 rnay say so.
As far as the Okavango people are concerned, again, and the Eastern
Caprivi people, 1 have mentioned already that in Eastern Caprivi nagana
and also lung sickness occur; now the approach here again related to
combatingthosediseases, and they have now readily açceyted prophylac-
tic treatment, they have readily accepted the inoculation of their cattle,
and actually they are taking a pride in participating in cornbating these
diseases now. Iiithe case of the Okavango people, they are already
accepting cattle improvement by the selection of improved sires being
brought in, and they have reached the stage where they feel that they
are really happy about it, and they have reached the stage where they
are also very, very happy to see the officials when they visit them, both
the veterinarians and the agricuitural oficials. Nagana is being es-
terminated very rapidly there as a result of their CO-operation, and the
same applies in the case of lung sickness in Okavangoland.
In Ovamboland they have reached the stage where they are using
manure for their crops already; they have accepted improved seed
varieties; they are accepting the combating of stock diseases; they have
reached the stage where some of their own people have been trained
already to do the inoculation work and they are doing it themselves now;
they cal1 themselveç inspectors and they go around and do the inocula-
tion, etc. ; but theris just this onephase which we could not succeed in
yet, &Ir.President, and that is that they will not part with their stock
yet. If 1 may cite an esample the Oshikango Hospital has been put up
quite recently with over 400 bedç, &ere meat is badly needed and they
have the ready market next to them; they have been entreated to bring
stock there but they refuse to do so-they do not want to part \\<th their
stock. The position is now that ive have to introduce the slaughter stock
from the Kaokoveld, where most people are prepared to sel1 stock.
That is the case so far as the Ovambo are concerned; the Nama in the
southern portion, agaiii, have already corne to tlie strige, in cases where
they have been working on the European farnis and they have seen
what karakul breeding meant, and so on that they have acquired karakul
ramsand they arealready breeding karakul, and quite a number of them
have thus entered the money economy. These are a few esamples as far
as South West Africa is concerned. In the case of the Republic 1 think
1 can report progress in the sençe that the peaple have in certain in-
stances, where certain irrigation schemes have been developed, accepted
them readily; they are rnaking full use of them and they are definitely
attached to and settled on these schemes as full-time farrners.
I rnust also say tliat we do have our problems and set-backs at &mes;
in cases, for instance, like irrigation schernes one finds that they make
use of the scheme, they follow al1the advicc givcn to them, they put in
their sceds, they work, tlie whole family work on the land, and they get
good crops. Then they are assisted in the marketing of those crops and
so on, but by the end of the seaçon when the next crops are to be put in, WITNESSES AND EXPERTS z17
one finds that they are still living in their residentialareas and they
refuse to corne and till theoil again, for they Say "Well, I've got enough
money for the next two or three years, so why must 1 now come back
and till the soil?" Those set-backs we accept-bve realizc, Mr. President,
that one must in one's approach be tolerant and patient, and knowing
the people, working amongst them, understanding the people-1 do not
Say this to try to belittle the people-wedo anticipate and we doexpect
these set-liacks, but we know that with perseverance they can also be
overcome. 1 can cite one actual example of the set-back 1 have just
mentioned, with your permission, and that is where a specific type of
farming was brought to certain people, viz., improved dairy farming,
andthe people were very interested; they were actually specially selected
people in their group, and a farm was specially set aside for them where
they were assisted in acquiring very good dairy cows; they went so far
as to dig tlieir own silo pits; they gatheredtheir maize, etc. ; they ensiled
it for the winter months; they even went further and put in clover and
grass mixtures for grazing for their stock.They made excellent progress,
receiving anything from 600-800rand a year. We as officials were very
proud, 1Mr.President, of the success, harrjng specially selected these
people and so on, but after three years they started disappearing,
started selling their improved cows, started just leaving the farming ,
operations altogether. Upon enquiries, the re~ily was the same: "We
have got enough money for quite a number of years now-why should
we work?" As 1 Say, I do not cite such sample, Mr. President, to belittle
the people; it is merely to show the Court that we and the officials be-
longing to the Department dealing with the people understand them,
and we know that we must be patient and tolerant. Yet we are very
optimistic that progress can bc made, and urehave definitely got cases
where farrners who have appreciated Our advice and have definitely
progressed, and they do not run away from tlie farming projects any
more, they stay there permanently.
Mr. MULLER : Ir. Pepler, you have now dealt up to this stage with
agriculture only; can you tell the Court what the approach is in other '
economic spheres-industry, commerce, etc.?
Mr. PEPLER S:ir, the approach is naturally very much the same, but
in the European sector, of course, it is different in this sense: that the
European can act-he has the financial resources-as the entrepreneur,
he takes the initiative, he takes al1 the respcinsibilities in respect of
industry, and he has to find his own way. In the case of the non-White,
they still lack not only the means but also the ski11and the initiative.
Again, as iar as mining, for instance, is concer~ied, very little has been
done in South West Africa in that respect; thert: is one man prospecting
in the KaokoveId already, but a further geophysical survey is still being
made. We know of the salt and the soda-ash possibilities in Ovambo-
land-that can be exploited. As a matter of fact, the Bantu Investment
Corporation is now doing whatever it can to exploit the possibilities of
obtaining salt and soda-ash from the area so that this can be exploited.
In the case of industry, certain progress has definiteIy been made
already. In Ovamboland, for instance, a factory has been put up quite
recently for making furniture. The Bantu Investment Corporation has
put up the buildings, it has brought the know-how, it has got two in-
structors, but for the rest there areonly Ovaml-IOpeople working in the
factory. Snlall brick-making factories and so on are also at present being218 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
put up; these are to be carried onin that particular area iOvamboland.
As far as industries are concerned in the Republic, I think we have
advanced further there; the Bantu Investment Corporation has not only
started quite a few factories in the homelands, but has even reached the
stage where it has helped some of the Bantu people themselves to start
factories in their homelands. 1 can cite one specific example in the
Repubiic where a manhas a cane factory; he was advanced by the Bantu
Investment Corporation an arnount of 30,000 rand to assist him to put
up the factory; at present he is employing 77 employees-1 was there a
few weeks ago and 1 checked on the figures; he is doing quite well for
himself, Sir, and he has got a ready market everywhere in the country;
as a matter of fact Isaw his balance sheet, too; he has a turnover of
1z2,ooo rand per year and has a net profit of 14,000 rand per year. So
progress is more advanced, I must Say, in the Republic than it is in
South West Africa.
As far as commerce is concerned, there are quite a few hundred traders
already in South West Africa. There again the approach in Ovamboland
was to Say "Now, if you want to trade, you can trade", and then ulti-
rnately they sorted themselves out, and we have reached the stage now
where there are quite a number of traders on a satisfactory footing.
There is just one other aspect, Sir, which 1worild also like to mention,
and that is home industries.
Home industries is an activity that is definitely being encouraged.
The Native peoples have the aptitude to make wonderful articles, handi-
craft articles, and that is extensively being encouraged in South West
Africa, particuIarly in Ovamboland and Okavangoland. The people have
a ready market for these things in the Police Zone and elsewhere. They
have a standing order from the Administration for quite a large amount
and what is more, they are also marketing, we are assisting them in
marketing the stuff in the Republic and there is such a dernand for it
that every endeavour is now made to encourage them to make more of
these things-basket work, woodwork-which tve know they have the
aptitude to make. These home industries are being encouraged and
specially put up for the different nationagroups ço that they can have
a ready market forthem and the idea is to encourage them to make these
things so that they can have regular incornes for these products. 1 may
cite the special depot which has been put up iii the Republic and the
sales for the stuff are so extensive therethat one cannot really supply
the demand. The turnover is approximately 3,000 Rand per month but
that is still under the guidance of the Bantu Investment Corporation-it
isnevertheless for the exclusive benefit of the people thernselves.
Mr. MULLER O:ne final question--canyou tell the Court what, in your
opinion, the effect would be if these methods of differentiation, measures
of protection, were to be done away with; for example, if by reason of
the existence of a norm, rule or standard the governing authority were
prohibited from differentiating between the inhabitants of South West
Africa on the basis of membership of a group or tribe?
Mr. PEPLER: It ismy persona1 opinion that if a norm of this nature
has to apply, if1 interpret it correctly, it will lie a very tragic day for
the Native peoples. The whole object of the Mandatory to protect the
land rights of these people, the whole object of assisting them socially
and economicaIly so that they can develop their areas into self-governing,
independent homelandç, will be defeated. Mr. President, 1 think that WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 21g
other groups, more highIy developed, with better financial resources
will buy up the lands of the less highly developed people. They wiIl
develop the natural resources for their own benefit and these people
undoubtedly, the less developed peopIe, will be the sufferers forit.
Secondly, Mr. President, my opinion is that if the top layer of any
national group has to be integrated into the more developed groups, it
will merely mean depriving that group of its leaders, those leaders who
could guide and assistthe group into nationhood. Sir, ifthat has to
happen, then rny persona1 opinion is it must lead to the dtimate dis-
integration of the underdeveloped national units.
Mr. MULLER : r. President,1have no further questions to put to the
witness. Thank you.
hlr.PRESIDENT 1:see, Mr. Gross,itis now ten minutes to one, wodd
you desire to put any questions before one o'clo~k? Would you prefer to
Ieave ituntil tomorrow?
Mr. GROSS :If itso pleasesthe Court.
. [Public hearing of29 September19651
The PRESIDENT T:he hearing is resumed. Witness, will you corne to
the podium? Thank you. Mr. Gross.
hlr. GROSS:Thank you, Mr. President. hlr. Pepler, would you be good
enough to tell the Court, Sir, what the extent of your travels in South
West Africa have been, roughIy interms of time spent there and areas
covered by yourself, Sir?
&. PEPLER:In South West Africa, Sir?
Mr. GROSS:Yes, if you pIease, Sir.
. Mr. PEPI-BR:Sir, I went to South West Africa the first time in 1955
and 1 spent three weeks al1 told there. 1 flew up to certain parts and
from there 1 made use of Land Rovers and crossed the northern part,
that is the Kaokoveld, Ovamboland and Okavangoland. Then 1 came
down towards the south. I crossed Epukiro and Ovitoto, that rneans the
eastern part of the Territory, and1 came right down to the south as far
as Bondels. That was during the first three weeks when 1 went there in
19In.19571 went there again with the particular object of explaining to
the oficials what waç rneant by agricultural planning and development;
Ivisited 01:jirnbingwe for several days. We exarnined the area very, very
carefully; we studied the conditions there, the ago-ecological conditions
and 1expIained to the oficials what we meant exactly by planning on a
farrning economic unit basis.
At a later date-I cannot exactly Say whether itwas 1960 or 1961-1
went again to assist the officials there and we visited quite a numbeof
Reserves in the south.
In 1962 1went with our Minister. We again crossed the northern areas
right from theEastern Caprivi, where we conducted quite a few meetings.
We also conducted a few meetings in al1 thret: of the othar northern
territories and then we came south again as far as Epukiro. My final
visit was in March this year when 1 went by 'plane down ta thesouth.
1visited afew of the southern Reserves and theri 1went up north, again
to the Eastern Caprivi and crossed al1the other homelands.
Mr. G~oss: Thank you, Sir. In your visits there and in the course of
your studies and discussions, did you have occasion to hold discuss~ons220 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
with members of the non-White groups in the various areas you visited?
Mr. PEPLEP:Yes, Sir, particularly when the meetings were conducted.
Mr. G~oss; Sir, in what language were those meetings conducted?
Mr. PEPLER: Mainly on the agricultural aspects . . .
Mr. GROSS: NO, Sir,1 am sorry 1 did not make my question clear.
What language, what medium of communication was employed?
Mr. PEPLER :here were interpreters. The language employed waç
either English or Afrikaans depending on what the interpreter could
interpret into best, but we always used interpreters in communicating
with the different groups.
Mr. GROSS:The non-\mites with whom you spoke generally could
not speak English or Afrikaans.1sthat correct?
Mr. PEPLER: Their leaders could invariably speak either English or
Afrikaans, but for the sake of the majority attending these meetings an
interpreter was used.
Mr. GKOSS:Was that condition true., Sir,in the southern sector as well
as in the northernareas?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:Approximately how much time have you spent in the
southern sector outside the Reserves?
Mr. PEPLER: Outside of the Reserves, not much, Sir, because 1do not
deal much with the White sector.
Mr. GROSS: Are YOU personally familiar on the basis of first-hand
knowledge, if 1 may put it that way, concerning the conditions on the
farmsin the ruralareas ofthe so-called White sector?
Mr. PEPLER: Not personally, Sir, but1 had quite a number of discus-
sions with the agricultural officials there, that is, the veterinarians, and
the staff working at Omatjenne ExperimentalStation, and onmy travels
1 traversed quite a number of these farms.
Mr. GROSS: 1believe it may be pertinent to put into the record at this
point figures with regard to the population distributionby White and
non-White in the rural areas of the southern sector.The figures derive
frorn tables in the Odendaal report-table XVIII-1 am sorry to take
the Court's time with this, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT:Table XVIII is on page 39,if that is what you are
looking for.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir.On page 39 and particularly tableXIX on page
41, From those tables the figures derive that in round numbersthere are
68,000 non-\mites in the rural areas of the southersector outside the
Reserves-68,000 non-Lhites in the rural areas and 20,000 Whites. Do
those figures correspond to your own appreciation, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:And it appearç from the Counter-hlemorial, III,on page
74, that there are some 25,000 adult male Natives employed by farmers
in thatsarne area. Does this correspond to your understanding, Sir?
hIr. PEPLER:Yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: In other words, there are more aduit male Natives em-
ployed on the farms than there are Whites in the rural area?Thatwould
be correct?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes.
Mr. GROSS: In the southern sector-l am speaking now about this
population whose numbers we have just taIked about, in the south-
ern sector outside the Reserves-are you farniliar, Sir, with restrictions WITNESSES ASD EXPERTS 221
or limitations imposed by law on the acquisition and use of farm land?
hlr. PEPLER:Of farm land? In the White sector?
Nr. GRC~SS Y:es, Sir. We are speakirig about the southern sector
outside the Reserves.
&Ir.PEPLER: Outside the Reserves-no restrictions whatsoever that
1know of, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, are you familiar with the restrictions on the
Icasc or asçigiirnent of farm lands non-Whites?
Mr. PEYI-BR N:O, 1am not familiar with any restrictions, Sir.
Nr. GROSS :hese facts are undisputed in the pleadings, as1shall cite
to you, Sir.On pages ïïj and 116 of the Mernorials (1) the averments
are made hy the Applicants, arnong others, that (this relates to land in
the southern sector outside the Reserves)-1 read froni page 116, Mr.
President :
". .. the standard form of lease contains a condition that if the
lessee marries or habitually cohabits with a 'Native' or 'Coloured'
person, his lease becomes subject to immediate cancellation. IVhile
the settlermay sublet or transfer his interestinthe land rvith the
written consent of the Administrator, he rnay do so subject only to
an express condition that 'in no case will consent be given to any
hypotliecation, assignment, transfer, sub-lease or subletting to
natives,Asiatics or coloured perçons'."
Have you corne across those provisions, Sir, in your experience?
31r. PI:PI-ER1 have not corne across any of those but 1 presume that
that referç to State landsand land that originatly belonged to the State
and was given out by the State. As far as private property is concern~d,
land which was not the State's originally and was acquired by indivi-
dual farrncrs, the provisionsdo not apply, to my knowledge.
Mr. G~oss: Your understanding, Sir,is that the White farrners are
perrnitted to assign or sub-lease farm lands to non-Ilihites?
Mr. PEPI~ER:Provided it was not State land tiefore that time, Sir.
hIr. G~oss: Now, could you explain to the Court, Sir, the reason for
that distinction to which you have testified concerning the legal restric-
tions imposed with respect to land formerly State land and which is now
owned in ft:eand which was not formerly State land?
Mr. PEPLER :ir, 1 am afraid, as 1esplained yesterday and rnentioned
this morning, 1 deal mostly with the nori-White population. 1 am not
acquainted with the legislation as far as the White sector is concerned.
If 1may comment on that subject, coming back to your original ques-
tion that there are more male non-Whites in tlie \Vhite sector than in
the non-White sector, 1 have made a survcy of that particular section
and my coriclusion is that there is more than enough land in the Reserves
to accommodate the non-Whites on an agricultural basis, on a farrning
economic unit agricultural basis. There ismorc: than enough room for
them and, therefore, they must have left the Reserves and find them-
selves on the European farms of their own choice.
hlr. G~oss:Sir, perhaps 1 misunderstood yotir testimony. The question
which Taddressed to you and which 1thought sou had answered before
related to the ratio of [Vhites to non-Whites in the southern sector
outside the Reserves-you understood that, Sir?
hlr. PEPLER: Yes, 1 understood that but if 1 rnayesplain-the fact
rernains that far more people can be accommodated on a full farrning222 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
economic unit basis in the southern Reserves than one actually finds
there. Now 1 take it,my assumption is, that they prefer to go to work
on those White farms and in normal practice where a White farmer
employs labour he might employ up to IO or 12 employees on his farm,
and for that reason you rnust invariably find more non-Whites on a
White farm than \hites.
Mr. GROSS :The fact is, Sir, is it not then, tthe non-Whites in this
area to which we are referring, outnurnbering the Whites in the rural
areas as they do, may and do work on the farms but are not permitted
to lease or sub-leasethose farms-is that correct, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER:1 cannot answer that question. Aç 1 Say,1 am not aware
of the legislation in the White section.
Mr. GROSS:Just again to cornplete the record. In the Counter-Memo-
rial, III, at page 32-with reference to the paragrapli from the Memo-
riais, which 1 have read a few moments ago-paragraph 29 in the
Counter-Memorial states among other things "the facts contained in this
paragraph are admitted" and there is some further discussion which is
self-evident from reading it. The explanation given, and 1 wouId Liketo
address your attention to this, in thisame discussion on page 32 of the
Counter-Memorial, is as follows:
"The reasons ~hy Respondent formed the view that 'the Natives
generally have not yet reached the stage of development where they
would benefit from individualland ownership, particuIarIy of farms'
appear from the limited nature of their agricdtural activities as
described above 2."
Then the footnote is to the description elsewhere in the pleadings.
Sir, 1 should like to ask you whether the reference to the Natives
generally,and 1stress the word generally, on the basis of your knowledge
of the agricultural situation,can fairly be interpreted as meaning that
there are indeed exceptions to the generality-is that correct, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER: Sir, ifI understood you correctly, it conveys the idea
which actually exists in the southern sector and that is that quite a
number of people are still practising the traditional subsistence economy.
Quite a number of them have not acquired the number of stock which
they would Iike to have and so on, and for that specific reason, they go
out and work on the \Vhite farms.
Mr. GROSS: Your use of the term "quite anumberM-would you care
to indicate to the Court, on the basis of your expert knowledge or any
knowledge, approximately what proportion of the non-Whites would be
exceptions, roughly what proportion, what percentage?
Mr. PEPLER: Sir,1 would Say over 50 per cent.
Mr. G~oss: Sir, the 50 per cent. would be exceptions from the gener-
ality that the non-mites, or Natives as they are called here, generally
have not yet reached the stage of development requisite to iandown-
ership and utilization?
Mr. PEPLER S:ir, yes,ifyou will allow me to take the case of the
southern areas which we are discussing now. 1have some figures available
here showing that (if you will allow me just to look it up), according to
my calculations, in the southern areas approximately 4,817 families can
be accommodated asfull-time farmers in that area, whereas there are at
preçent Iess than2,000 families practising fanning in the southern areas.
Mr. GROSS :Sir, again on the same generalpoint, and again in reference WITNESSES .4ND EXPERTS 223
to the restrictions upon alienation, leasing and assignment and sub-
leasing, which are undisputed in the recokd, in tlie citatiIhave given,
the furthei- explanation is made on page 33, of the Counter-Memorial,
III,and 1quote from paragraph 30:
"A necessary corollary to the fact that Natives and Coloured
persons are regarded as on the whole not sufficiently advanced to
meet the rigorous requirements of commercial farrning in the Terri-
tory,is that White farmers should not, at any rate while ownership
in the farms remains vested in the Administration, be entitled to
cede or assign their leasetonon-Whites. However, once the famer
becomes owner of the land, no restraint isplaced on his right of
alienation."
That latter is the point you made before.
Now, Sir, I should like to cal1 your attention to the phrase-"A
necessary i:orollary to the fact that Natives and Coloured persons are
regarded as on thewhole not sufficiently advanced to meet the rigorous
requirenients ..."-that also would necessarily apply, would it not,Sir,
to exceptions to the generality?
Mr. PEPJ-ER: Yes, definitely, Sir.
Mr. GROÇS:And, Sir, in your testimony O€ yesterday, you, if 1may
refer to the record, stated that with respect to certain groups, you
testified for example at page 210, supra-in the southern part of the
southern sector, çome Native farmers have already entered into the
money or exchange economy-that was your testimony, was it not,
Sir?
fiIr.PEPLER :bat is correct.
Mr.GROSS : ou also testified on pa215, swpra, of the same verbatim
that the Hr:rero "have already reachcd the stage where they haveentered
into market econorny".
Mr. PEPI-ER :hat is correct, Sir.
Mr. G~oss:And on page 216, supra, you testified ycsterday, Sir, that
"the Nama. ...have alrendy corne tothe stage wherc they are breeding
karakult'arid "quite a number have alreadyentered the money economy".
1s that correct?
Mr. PEPLER:That is correct, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: SO that on the basis of your testimony, there are excep-
tions to the generality references to Natives "on the whole" and that sort
of qualification-are there not,Sir?
Mr. PEPLER Y:es, that confirms what1have stated, that some amongst
the same group have reached a more advanced stage than the others but
they are di:finitely, to my knowledge and my experience, in the mino-
rity.
Mr. CROSS:They are in a minority, Sir. Now with respect to that
minority, would you explain to the Court, Sir, why that minority,
whatever its nurnber may be, is subject to restrictions of the sort de-
scribed in the plcadings. If they are not at the samlow level, shall we
Say, as the majority, why are they, this minority, subject to those
restrictionsSir?
Mr. PEPLER: MT. President, 1cannot explain exactly what the reason
isfor this. As 1have already stated, 1 am not acquainted Mth the legal
position but from the practical poinofview, 1think 1 can give an answer
in this sense, that according to my survey and our planning made in224 SOUTH EVESTAFRICA
terms of the agro-ecological regions and the carrying capacity of the
different Reserves, far more people, 1 am talking about the non-Whites
now, can be accornmodated agriculturally in their Reserves than what
we find there today. Actually far more stock can be carried in those
Reçerves than we find there today. So if there were any of those more
advanced people, who desired to remain as farmers in their Reserves,
there is absolutely nothing to stop them from doing so. Actually, there
are some of those people in the Reserves today who own up to 500 head
of small stock.
Mr. GKOSÇ: Would it then be accurate to Say, Sir, regarding the
southern sector, the rural areas outside the Reserves, thatthe restrictions
which have been described are based on a policy which is extended to
the group as a whoie, irrespective of the minority, who are qualified to
exercise these rights and to rnake effective use of the land?
Mr. PEPLER:Sir, 1interpret it thiway that there is no need at present
for them to have more land and seeing that the groups want to remain
together through their own choice, 1 presume that for that specific
reason, this restriction might have been applied-if there is such legis-
lation, Ihave, however, already pojnted out that, to my knowledge, it
does not occur in the case of privately owned farms. But my answer to
that question would be that there is nopressure whatsoever,land pressure,
in the Reserves and 1 do not see any curtailment on these people in this
respect which willaffect them detrimentally.
Mr. G~oss: In other words, Sir, i1 understand you, you are not in a
position to explain the restrictions to which 1 have referred in respect
of the qualified non-Whites who reside in the southern sector outside the
Reserves?
Mr. PEPLER: NO,that is outside my field, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: That is outside your field. Now, when therefore the
Kespondent in, for example, the Counter-Neniorial, III, at page 33,
relating to the prohibition of assigning leases to non-Europeans, says as
folIows: "When Respondent deerns the Native population ripe for indi-
vidual land settlement, provision can be made therefor", did the refer-
ence there to "Native population", in your opinion, referto every Native
in the population?
Mr. PEPLER:1 explained yesterday that they are not yet accustomed
to individual land tenure, it is against their traditionacustoms; they
want land tenure to be on a communal basis, and 1 think, that is rny
personalview, that the idea is not to give them private, individual land
ownership unless it is their wish-the wish of the people themselves, as a
group, not as individuals.
hlr.G~oss: The individual wish in that respect, therefore,is regarded
as irrelevant as amatter of governmental policy, is it, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER: NO, 1would not say that.
Mr. G~oss: Then would you please, if you will, clarify your response
in the tems of the group consideration? Suppose a qualified individual
wishes to lease land for farming purposes in the southern scctor outside
the Reserves, would that individual be rejected because he is a member
of a group, or wouId there be some other reason?
Mr. PEPLER: NO, definitely not. I have already indicated that as far
as individualland is concerned, acquired by the iridividual Whites outside
land that used to belong to the State, he is absoliitely free to doso; there
is nothing to forbid him doing so. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 225
Alr. GKOSS1: am now referring, then, to land in the former category,
that is to Say, State land or former State land; would you answer rny
question in terms of that type of land?
Mr. PEPLER: As 1 çaid, that is outsidinp field.1 am not in aposition
to answer that question.
&Ir. GROSS:YOU are Director of Bantu Development, are you not-is
that the titleof your post?
Mr. YEPLER:'l'hat is correct, and may 1 qualify it by saying that I
have never yet felt the need or necessitto go into those matters, becnuse
Iny experience is that al1 the people at present living in the southern as
well as the northern sector could be accommodated on a sound agricul-
tural footing on the lands reserved for them in those parts, so there was
never any ~ieedfor me togo into those matters.
hlr. G~oss: One of the points to which your evidence has been directed
aiid to which you have testified is stated in the letter to mhich Respon-
dent's learned counsel has referred on 22 September: "The reasons for
differentialtreatment in the ecoriomic development of the areas occupied
by different population goups." 1 am referring in that context to the
reasons for differential treatment in the southern sector outside the
Reserves in the rural areas. 1s it your testimony that you are not ac-
quaintecl with the restrictions upon alienation or assignmcnt or leasing
on a racial basis in that sector?
Mr. PEPLER:Yes, that ismy evidence, that 1 am not acquainted with
tliat.
Mr. G~oss: so that your testimony is not intended to be directed, as
a witncss or as an expert, to reasons for differential treatment in this
area which we have mentioned-that is a correct summation, is it?
&Ir. PEPLEK: In the White sector, yes.
Mr. G~oss : In the rural areas outside the Reserves ?
IlIr. PEPLER:Yes.
Jlr.G~oss: 1 should like, then, to turn to a more basic question, aiid
that is the fundamental premise of separate deveIopment-a major
premisc, let me put it that way. You are familiar with the general policy
of separate development or apartheid, are you not?
Mr. PEPLEK Y:es.
Mr.GKOSÇ: 1s it nothe fact that one of the major premises of the policy
of separate development or apartheid, known either way in the record,
is that the White or European is given a priority or exclusive position in
the White iirea, the condition of reciprocity in theory being appliecl so
that the non-iVhite is given a similar position ofexclusivity or priority
in his own area-is that a correct summation of a major premise of the
policy ?
Mr. PEPLER: No, 1 do not agree with tliat. The European has a land
area set aside for him and reserved for his occupation, and in a similar
manner land has been sct aside and reserved for the non-1irhites in which
the rights of the Europcan have also been limited; he cannot acquire
any land in the lion-jirhite sector; he cannot even lease land there; he
is not allotved toenter that land withoiit a permit; so 1 definitedo not
agree.
Mr. GROSS : e perhaps misunderstand eacli other, but let me put it
to you in the tems in which it waç explicitly put by Prime hlinister
Verwoerd when he was Minister of Native Affairs in 1956. This is cited
from the Counter-Mernorial, III,at page I75-We are referring now to226 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
a basic prernise of the policy of separate development to which your
testimony is directed:
"In these tertitories [that is to Say, the Native areas] the European
has no claim to property and certain civil rights. There he is the
temporary inhabitant who helps with the development of those
areas, but they belong to the Natives. The rights of the Natives are
bound up with this fact . . . Just the opposite is the case in the
European areas. There is the home of the European's rights and
there the Native is the temporary resident and the guest, for what-
ever purpose he may be there. "
Do you agree with that as a correct statement of a major premise ofthe
policy of apartheid or separate development?
Mr. PEPLER: 1 fully agree with that statement.
Mr. CROSS:Then, in the southern sector outside the Reserves, would
this not be an important element in the explanation for the restriction
upon rights of alienation or leasing, which concededly exist there?
Mr. PEPLER: That would be the explanation.
Mr. G~oss: And could it not be said, then, that the restrictions upon
alienation and leasing and assignment of other interests in land are
imposed on the basis of whether a person is a White or a Native?
Mr. PEPLER: There is this policy of differentiation between the differ-
ent national groups-I think that iç generally accepted, and the known
policy of the Republic of South Africa4ifferentiation.
Mr. GROSS :Othat you wouId also agree, would you not, then, with
the statement in the Counter-Mernorial, III,page 233,that-
"Respondent has treated various parts ofthe Territory as areas
in which particular population groups are to have certain priority
rights of use and occupation, and that its policy in that regard,
far from being 'arbitrary', is based on what Respondent considers
to be a necessity inherent in the socio-econornic situation in the
Territory; and, far from being 'discriminatory', attempts at achiev-
ing a fair balance between the legitimate aspirations ofthe various
groups."
Do you agree generally with that statement which 1 have quoted from
the Respondent as an analysis of the policy of separate developrnent to
which you are testifying?
MT.PE~ER: Yes, I do, but it ibased, if 1may explain there, on the
fact the Whites are looked upon as, and they are, the more advanced
group, and they regard it as their duty to protect the rights ofthe leçs
developed people, and for that specifrc reason that policy is adopted,
and is practised.
Mr. GROSS :he reference to-let us takethe question of the matter
of priority rights of use and occupation-1 quote from this excerpt 1
have read-"attempts at achieving a fairbalance between the legitimate
aspirations of the various groups"; would you Say that the reciprocal
limitations upon rights that are referred to by Prime Minister Verwoerd
as certain civil rights and claim to property-would you Say that the
reciprocal denial or limitation of those rights involves the determination
of a fair balance between the legitimate aspirationsof thevarious groups
in the respective areas?
Mr. PEPLER : es,I would definitely say so.
Mr. GROSS : Now, in the case of the southern sector outside the Reserves WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 227
where there are these population groups lvhich 1 have placed into the
record, who makes the determination as to what is a fair balance be-
tween the 1i:gitimate aspirations of the White and the non-Ilrhite groups?
hlr.PEPLERI : cannot answer that questlon.
Mr. G~oss: Does your department or function have anything to do
with respect to the rnatter of deterrnining thefair balance bet~veenthe
legitirnate, aspirations of the White and the non-White groups?
Mr. PEPLER: My department deals with that matter, but 1 am an
agriculturalist and, as 1have already indicated, the land which has been
reçerved for the non-White people and which it is proposed to extend in
terrns of tlie Odendaal report makes ample provision for the present
population nurnbers to be eçtablished aç farmers in their Reserves, that
is,as farmcrs exclusively, which is the basic form of primary develop-
ment. When one cornes to the secondary sector, that is, the commercial
sector, theri one must find with progress that those people, irrespective
of their group, Inust also enter that sector of the econorny. But rny
finding isthat up to the present there has been no need whatsoever for
me, for instance, as an agriculturalist, to go torny department and say
that 1find that there isa shortage of agricultural land in the Reserves.
Mr. GROSS :our testimony, if Iunderstand, iç then intended bu you
to be direct:ed toward the question of land utilization and land shortage
as a technical, agricultural, production question?
Mr. PEPLER:Yes.
Mr. GROSS :our testimony, as directed to the reasons for differential
treatment inthe economic development of the areas occupied by different
population groups, is then not based upon nor reflects the prernises upon
which the policy of differential treatment is based?
hlr.PEPLERI: do not folIow that question.
Mr. GRDSS Y:our testimony with respect to th(! reasons for diffcrential
treatrnent-is that intended by you to reflect considerations of the
premises upon which the policy isbased, let me Say, in social or political
terms, or both?
b,Ir. PEPLER: bly answer to that question is again that 1am dealing
with theçe different non-White national groups, and 1 know what the
policy is;1 know that the policy is to protect the rights of those people
in every respect, and those rights that are protected in their Reserves
are of a reciprocal nature.As 1 have already explained, up to thisstage1
have never corne across any instance where itwas nccessary to approach
the Government to Say that there is a dearth of land or that the land
reçerved for the different non-White groups is not suficient to accom-
rnodate them.
Mr. GROÇS: 1 would just wish to put one further question on this
specific lineasto priority of use in several areas, depending on the race
of the inhabitants. In the Counter-Mernorial, III,page 266, it is stated
that, dfiropos of achieving and maintaining a balance between the legiti-
mate aspirations of the vanous groups, this "can best be accornplished
hy setting aside, as faras practicable,an area for the exclusive use and
occupation of each group". Can you advise the Court whether this policy
is applied inthe southern sector of the Territory autside the Reserves?
Mr. PEPLER:Yes, Sir. I have already indicated that the Whites in the
White sectar have no rights in the non-White sector, to the different
limits that have been discussed here this morning, and the çame applies
the oppositc way. 228 SOUTHWEST AFRICA
hlr. GROSS: IIIthe southern sector outside the Reserves?
Mr. PEPLER:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:In respect of the reciprocity (1 use the word: I am not
sure whether you would agree with the use of it, or would you express a
view on that? There is a reciprocity of limitation of rights-is that an
agreeable way of expressing it, doyou think?), do you, as an expert in
the field of Bantu development and agriculture, regard the land policy as
- inter-relatedwith the economic and political aspects of the policy of
separate development?
Mr. PEPLER:Definitely inter-related with the economics of the different
sectors.
hlr. GROSS:And the politics, or political rights and freedoms of indi-
viduals, would that bea related aspect of the land or agricultural policies?
Mr. PEPLER:The political aspects in their own Reserves or homelands
apply so tkat they have exactly the same political rights there as the
IVhites have in their sector.
Mr. GROSSA : nd, conversely, that the deprivation of rights-justto go
over the same ground, 1 admit, briefly, but to put it in this context
specifically, the denial of rights, respectively, is based upon the same
political policy. Did you understand my question, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER: 1 did not quite follow the question.
Mr. GROSSI:f 1 understood you, you referred to the granting of rights
in the several areas-White and non-White. Juçt for the sake of com-
pleteness 1wondered whether your same answer applied to the denial of
rights on a reciprocal basis?
Mr. PEPLER:That is correct.
Mr. GROSS: The pleadings of the Respondent (1 will be very brief
about this, Sir, not tothrow a long quotation at you) in the Rejoinder,
V, at page 253, stated as follows:
"The primary question at issue is political-the forrn which
self-rule and self-determinationrnust take in order to avoid strife
and struggle for domination and preservation, and to ençure har-
monious relations. In order to secure justice and sound relations in
these respects, which are of overriding importance, separate develop-
ment is desirable."
And then I will cal1 your particular attentioto the following sentence:
"As a consequence, boundary lines becorne necessary also in the
economic sphere, otherwise attempts at political separatism would
be rendered nugatory."
Sir, would you, as applied to the land policy, express an opinion to the
Court as to what the phrase used by Respondent "boundary lines ithe
economic sphere" would imply?
Mr. PEPLER:Yes. 1shall gladly explain that. The object of that really
is that the boundaries, as determined for the different sectors, are not
only based on the development of agriculture, but on each of these
homelands developing a diversified economy. In other words, they
must alsobe enabled to go through the different stages, from the traditio-
na1 subsistence economy into the exchange economy and ultimateiy into
the export economy. In other words, they must develop those different
homelands to the fullest extent, both agriculturally and economically,
and then the economy that grows in each and every one of those indl- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
229
vidual areas can be inter-related with the adjoining territories or areas.
Mr. GROS: Would YOU agree, Sir, thatitis an objective of the land
policy to further the objective of "political separatism" between the
White and non-ilrhite areas?
Mr. PEPI.ER :es, because the whole object is that each nationaI unit
must develop as a political entity.
hlr. G~oss: On a racial basis?
Rlr. PEPLER:1 will not say on a racial basis-on an identity basis,
which they prefer to keep themselves.
Mr. GROÇS: DOyou mean that Whites prefer to keep themselves in one
area and non-WIiites in another area? 1s that what you mean, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER: AS amongst themselves-the non-Whites as amongst
themselves. In South West Africa, for instance, we experience it.1 think
it is explained in great detail in the Counter-Memorial. For instance,
some years ago, in this century still, the Namrt and the Hereros were
enemies and it would be unfair to group the~n together now in one
political, economical structure.
Mr. GROSS: In the execution of your function as Director of Bantu
Development (is that the correct title, Sir?), do you proceed from the
basis that the objective of the policy is separate geographical areas in
which Whitcs, on the one hand, and non-Whites on the other, will be
carrying on their lives and their livelihood?
Mr. PEPI-ER:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: DO you, in the application of your policies in that respect,
have any guide-lines with respect of timc for accomplishment of this
ultimate objective?
Mr. PEPLER: Sir, 1 cannot give pide-lines, but 1 can indicate, as I
did yesterday, that the different groups have reached different stages of
advancement, and some have reached further stages than others. 1have
' indicated the case of the Bushmen and if 1may take the group that we
regard to be the most advanced at present, that is in the Republic, the
Xhosa-çpeaking group, the Transkei, for instance, tliey have reached the
stage of aclvancement where they have been given self-determination
already.
Mr. G~oss: Your policy, then, if 1 understood you correctly and
correct me if Idid not, which you pursue in the discharge of your duties,
is based upon no approximate time for accomplishing the geographical
separation between Whites and non-Whites?
MT. PEPIKR:Sir, ifI may explain that, in my capacity as Director of
Bantu Development 1 invariably corne across this phenornenon that if
one develops, let me cal1 it ahomeland, for any particuIar group, one
must take a.ccount of the customs and ways oflife of the people concerned.
1 think 1have already explained it yesterday. My experience is really
that it is no use developing anyhomeland physic:ally without the closest
CO-operation of and without the closest consultation with the people
themselves. Physical development means absolutely nothing if one
cannot condition the people with one andlet them participate in what-
ever development does take place. If 1 rnay use 1:heword, blr. President,
1 always talk about balanced development and by balanced development
1 mean the physical development of the respective homelands, as well
as the hunlan development-in other words, the development of the
hurnan aspect.
Now, I cannot see what could be achieved if one develops physicaily230' SOUTH WEST AFRICA
without a sound, solid foundation for the humans themselves. It is no
good, Sir, putting up a roof before you build the foundations of the
house-you must have this balanced development and that is why one
must definitely take into account the stages of development of the differ-
ent ethnic groups that we are dealing with.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. Now, in respect of the accomplishment of the
geographical separation on the basis of race, does the calculation enter
into your policy or plans whether or not the 68,000 non-Whites in the
rural areas of the southern sector, outside the Reserves, will be removed,
voluntarily or otherwise, as you choose, from that area to so-caIIed
homelands at some stage?
Mr. PEPLER:Will be removed voluntariIy ...
Mr. GROSÇ: Or otherwise, whichever you prefer. 1 did not raise that
question, Sir. That they will, at some stage, no longer reside and work
in this sector, is that an objective oa principle upon which your policy
and plans are based?
Mr. PEPLER :he objective, Sir, is to develop these homelands in such
a way that they can accommodate the majority, or al1 the people if
necessary, but, there again, 1 must qualify that not only is it on an ,
agricultural basis, but it must be on a diversified, economical basis.It
means, that anyone is free who wants to go back to his Reserve, to go
back voluntarily, and 1 do not for one moment think that they will
ever be forced to go back,
Mr. GROSS :he purport of my question, Sir, is to enable the Court to
understand, as clearly as possible, what the ultimate objective of the
policy which you are administering in this respect is, with respect to the
physicai separation of Whites and non-Whites: (a) is that an ultimate
objective of the policy and (b) is there a time-Iimit involved for its
accomplishment ifit is a policy? Those are two qirestions in one,1may,
hlr. President.
Mr.TGross.SIDENT1 : think it would be better if you broke it into two,
Mr. GROSS: (a) first, if you please, Sir.
Mr. PEPLER: Will you just repeat it first.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir. 1s it an objective of the policy which you ad-
minister in this respect that there will be a physical separation of [Vhites
from non-Whites in separate geographical areas?
Mr. PEPLER:Not necessarily, Sir.
Mr. Grcoss: So that when reference is made, stilIpursuing thissame
point (a), in the Odendaal Commission report, from which 1have quoted,
page 429, to the "separate geographical areas" or when references are
made io "separation" on the basis of develop~nent in separate areas,
do those staternents rnean, or do they not mean, that the objective is
partial separation only?
Mr. PEPLER:Sir, 1 would like to define the objective in this way, that
each national unit must have the land specially reserved for him where
it can develop, where that group can develop into full nationhood. But
if they have peoplewho still desire to sel1their labourorwant to work in
the White sector or any other sector,1 cannot see that the boundaries
would be tied to such an extent that they would be prohibited from
doing so.
Mr. G~oss : Coming to my question (b), do your pIans and policies
reflect, or are they based upon, any assumptions concerning the time WITNESSES AND EXPERTS .
231
within whii:h a major movement will take place of non-White from the
rural areas of the UThitesector?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir, definitely; that is why these homelands are
being developed.
Rlr. GROÇS:NOW,Sir, what would be the approximate time-limit-that
is what 1 ri:ferred to before as a guide line for your planning-iwhich
this,may I cal1 it, "mass migration" would be accomplished from the
White sector?
The PRESIDENT W:hat mass migration?
Mr. G~oss: Of the non-Whites from the White sector outside the
Reserves.
Mr. PEPLER: Sir, 1 do not foresee any rnass migration whatsoever
because thi: development is so evolutionary, aiid as the opportunities
ariseforthepeople to goto their own homelands then they willgo there
voluntarily and inan evolutionarj~ way. So 1do not foresee that there is
reallya yardstick in that respect enabIing one to say that it will take
so long. As1 have already indicated, and 1must stress this again; iisa .
question of balanced development; and there has never been any idea of
pushing tht: people back without affording thern a decent standard of
living.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, there are 68,000 non-Whites in the rural areas of the
southern sector outside the Reserves-this is a figure which we have
established and agreed upon. In your planning and policy can you advise
the Court whether, let us Say, IOO years' time, there will be only 30,000
people as you project your plans and policies? There uill onIy be, let
us say, 30,cioopeople in the southern sector?
The PRESIDENT:Mr. Gross, no question of that description can have
any value: surely we cannot gaze that far into the future. You can ask
the witness, in respect of the problem you are concerned with, what the
contemplates willbe accomplished in 5or IO or15 years, butthe question
which you put to him surely is seeking to gaze into the far future, which
no man can do.
MT.PEPLER :Thank you, MT. President.
Mr. G~oss: May 1rephrase the question or change the question, Mr.
President, to bring out the point which we have in mind?
The PRESIDENT:Yes, please do.
Mr. GROSS:What do you envisage in your policy and planning will
be the number of non-Whites in the rural areas ofthe southern sector,
outside the Reserves, in 50 years' time?
Mr. PEPLER:Sir, that isaIso an impossible question to answer, because
you have the natural population increaseç and al1 that sort of thing.
1 am prepared to go so far as to Say that with the physical development
and other opportunities, .that is commercial development, etc., in the
different hornelands,I foresee that more peopIe will be accommodated
in their separate Reserves, and that the figureswillgradually decrease
in the White sector. That 1am prepared to Say, riarnely that the present
nurnber dorniciled today in the White areas will decrease.
Mr. GROSS :ir, do you envisage in your planning and policyastate of
affairs in which the northern territories will be independently viable
economically ?
Mr. PEPLER Y:es, Sir, definitely.
MT. GROSS:At what level would you say in terms of a scale from
subsistence toexchange economy? SOUTH WEST AFRICA
232
Mr. PEPLER: Sir, at present, as Iindicated yesterday, the majority
are still practising a subsistence economy, but 1Iiave also indicated that
in Ovamboland the whole territory is not occupied yet. It can accommo-
date far more people than it is accominodating at prescritbut seeing
that it carries the highest population figure in the northern homelands,
we have already started with the development of commerce and in-
dustries.
1 have indicated that we have already got a furniture factory there;
we want to put up a rneat factory, a de-boning factory, and quite a
nurnber of other activities can arise. There is economic growth in Ovam-
boland today. There has been a hospital established, numerous clinics
have been established, schools are going up, towris are being established,
and al1this will create economic viability in Ovamboland. So1 do foresee
that as one finds an area or a homeland where the population lias grown
to such an extcnt that economic viability should be created, and it is
created, they can become economically viable.
>Ir. GROSS: Would you care, as an expert, Sir, to indicate to the
Court, you have an opinion about this, approximritely what period of
time do you envisage will elapse before thiç viabilitp is achieved?
Rlr.YEPLER :ir,if1were to give a figure in terms of physical develop-
ment then it can be an easy matter, because the physical development
can take place very rapidly: watcr points can be made, as 1 have indi-
cated; different factorieç can be puup, etc., but the wliole object of this
policy of separate development is a policy of protecting the people in
their own homelands. In other words, let them become economically
viable. For that reason, the Bantu Investment Corporation has been
established. And with development these people will he absorbed in the
factories, they will be absorbed in the hospitals, they will be absorbed in
every respect, in trade and so on, so thatthey can become viable them-
selves.
Now 1 gant you that initially the more advanced Whites must take
the initiative, but there again, the policy is that as they become available
the Whites will withdraw.
Mr. GKOSS :ir, are you farniliar with the comparative per capita
income of the population in the northern territories, as compared with
the southern sector at the present time?
Mr. PEPLER : t the present time-no, Sir.
>Ir.GROSS:Sir, would you disagree, on the basis of your expertise in
the area of development generally, with the figuresof Professor Krogh,
who testified here but not on this point, inThe Sottth Africa Jozirnalof
Economics, Volume 28, 1960, page 16,that "in the north the er capita
incorne of the population is £8 gs., and in the south it i£17 ! 1s.Does
this ratio appear to you to be substantially correct from your knowledge
of the Territory, north and soiith?
Mr. PEPLER:If Professor Krogh quoted those figures, Sir (1 know he
iç aresearch man who must have done intensive research work on that), 1
must accept them.
Mr. GROSS: I willnot press you for concurrence with these exact figures,
1do not mean to do that. Rut you would agree, Sir, on the hasis of your
independent knowledge that there is,shall we Say, a vcry substantial
discrepancy between the per capita incornes, north and south?
Mr. PEPLER:1 would agree with that.
Mr. Gross: Now, the terms of the accomplishment of the viabiiity WITNESSES AKD EXPERTS 233
which you envisage for the northern territories-the so-called home-
lands-would you have an opinion with respect to, let us say, on the
basis of your plans and policies, what the approximate disparity would
be in50 yt:ars' time? Does this enter into your plan?
Nr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir.If one takes the Eastern Caprivi, the Kaokoveld
and Okavi~ngoland, they are totally underpopiilated. My approach, as
an agriculturalist, will first be to assist them in devcloping agriculture-in
other words, establishing a sound primary devt:loprnent footing. In the
case of Ovamboland, where the population figures are much higher, one
would undoubtedlystimulate progress inother respects too.The Ovambo
people have the advantage that they have very regularly corne into the
White sector where they have learned to work on White farms, in White
industry, etc., where they earned money, and al1that sort of thing, and
1 think, in this respect, as far as the northern sector is concerned the
Ovarnbo people are more advanced as a result of experience and in-
service training that they have gained in the White sector, with the
result that they have a layer of people who ciin take the initiative in
stimulatingthis. 1 cannot give you a time and Say it mil1be in IO years'
time or zo years' time. 1 can repeat, and 1 wnnt to repeat, that that
growth will definitely, from an evolutionary stage, gradually grow to a
Inore revolutionary stage.
%Ir.G~oss: Sir, 1 am, of course, not asking you to be a prophet and
make preclictions. 1 am addressing you solelv as Director of Bantu
Development and a witness, an expert, on the policy of separate develop-
ment. 1sthe Court to understand, Sir, that in thc development of policies
and plans with respect to this developrnent, and to development, there
are no forecasts or targets of accomplishment of particular stages-1 am
speaking now, Sir, in terms of your planning and policies rather than in
respect of your prediction of accomplishment?
Mr. PEPLER: Sir, there are. Plansare being worked out regularly. The
Physical Development Plans, Educational Developrnent Plans, Health
Plans, al1 -these plans are being worked out very carefully, the lot are
being budgeted for, butmight 1explain to the Court the difficulty thIam
placed in by this question? If 1 may quote the case of the Transkei which
had advanced tothe stage when they asked for self-determination the De-
partment (the Prime Minister as a matter of fact) told them: now pou
go into recess; you draw up your constitution, you Say what you want,
what you are prepared to do, what departments you are prepared to take
over, etc. This theydid. Self-determination was given to them, Sir.They
have estahlished in their Public Service 2,466 posts. At present there
are still over 500 White officials working in the Transkei, being seconded
by the Republican Governrnent to them.
1had the occasion to read the Minister of Agriculture for Transkei's
agricultural report very recently, in whidi he stated that he could not
foresee that he could replace al1the White officials in his Departrnent of
Agriculturi: and Forestry within ten years. That is something specific
that 1 can go on, which 1 have read in his report.
It depends on how the people themselves progress, on how they
themselves are interested in the different subjects. In the Bantu medical
profession, Sir, 1 may say that there are quite a nurnber of rnedical
people already operating in the Transkei and depending on themselves,
they can riin the Health Department of the Transkei as soon as they get
enough medical officers to do so. But your question was "Are we plan-234 SOUTH WEST AFRlCX
ning?" and my answer is: we are planning but it is most difficult to fore-
cast how long it will take because it again depends on the human factor.
Air.GROSÇ :ir, may 1stress that 1 am sure that the Court will appre-
ciate the difficulties you confront in the development of these areas, and
also, asiattempted to make clear forthe sake ofmy question and your
response, 1am not requesting a forecaçt1 amtrying to ascertain, for the
elucidation ofthis problem what are your target plans, or, in terms of an
enterprise, budget or forecast budget in that sense, in connection, for
exaniple, with your responsibility, which you testified you bore, in page
29, supra, of the verbatim yesterday: "1also have to budget for these
development plans." And, with respect to the development plans, you
referred to your function "to drawp development plans for the different
Bantu authorities in respect of their physical development, as well as
their socio-economic development, particularly in their different Iiome
areas". My question to you, Sir-perhaps you have answered it or rnay
not care to-is: In preparing those development plans, which isyour
main function as you described it,and developing budgets for them, do
you or do you not have a plan or target for accornplishrnent of certain
stages of devclopment? 1 started this line of questioning, you recall,
with respect to the discre~ancv in the #ecaPifaincome. Takina that as
an exadple, do your plan; and do you; budget recommendatiorïs for the
development reflect in anv wav a time tar~et for accom~lishment in
respeci of narrowing the discrépancy betwezn 11orth and south of the
per capitaincome? Do you have any objective in that respect set forth
before you in developing your plans and budgets? I am speaking about
a time factor here,Sir.
Mr. PEPLER Sir, yes. In the case of the northern areas, for instance in
Ovarnboland, for the next five years my planning and budgeting 1have
made provision for the expenditure of 3j million rand in Ovamboland
alone, whereas the figures for the other three northern homelands are
very much lower. 1 think that goes to indicate that 1 have a directive
and 1have a plan indeveloping them according to their needs and the
requirements.
Mr. GROSÇ: DO you have an estimate upon which those plans and
budget have been based? What will be the approximate fiercapitnincome
of the population of Ovamboland at the end of the five-year period?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir. IfImay look up the figure. On the basis of the
de factopopulation in Ovamboland today, 161.41 rand per annum in
1970.
Xr. GROSS : r. Pepler, with further reference tthis point,1 have
just onc or two more questions. Reverting to the question of projections
for planning purposes, which is al1 we are acidressing ourselvcs to,
would you indicate to the Court what the, if any, projected percapita
income, let us Say at the end of five years, would be with respect to
Okavangoland? It haç a population 1 believe of some twenty odd
thousand or so-do you have a figure?-28,000.
Mr. PEPLER: 27,800, Sir, that is the number.
Mr. GROSS T:hank you.
Mr. PEPLER S:ir, it is based entirely onthe potential agricultural
income in terms of the methods that they are practising today, not jn
terms of the actual agricültural production capacity of the land and in
their case it willamount to approximately 80 rand #er capita infive
years' time,in 1970. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 235
3Ir.GROÇÇ:A rand, if1am not mistaken, Sir, is ten shillings in British
currency?
hlr.PEPLER:Yes, two rand to one pound sterling.
Nr. G~oss: In your testimony of yesterday, at page 218, szrea, in
response tn a question addreçsed to you by leai-ned counsel, you replied
as follows:
"The whole object of the Mandatory to protect the land rights of
these people [that is Native peoples], the whole object of assisting
them sociaiiy and economically so that they can deveïop their areas
into self-governing, independent hornelands will be defeated."
That was d gjroposof a question addressed to you by Mr. Muller as to
what the effect would be of, as he put it, "doing away with measures of
protection". Leaving aside, Sir, that characterization of the Applicants'
case, rnay 1 cal1 your attention to your use of the phrase "independent
homelands" and ask you to advise the Court what the economic signifi-
cance, if any, of the word "independent" is in that context?
Mr. PEPLER: Sir, that rneans the same waÿ as the Transkei has been
built up towards a self-governing national unit, in other words, as 1
explained initially,after they had gone into recess they had indicated
whichdepartments they thought tliey were capable of administeringwith
European assistance, that is, stillwith the assistarice of European offi-
cials.The)? are not entrepreneurs and so on, they are Government offi-
cials who assiçt them and guide them in administering their national
unit (in the case of the Transkei).
Now, if 1rnay answer the question this way, it depends on ~vhatthey
actually require initially, but the group will also build up, depending on
themselves, to an absolute independent national unit in which they can
govern themselves in every sense of the word.
Mr. GROSS: NOW, Sir, this response refers, 1 take it, to political
aspects, if understood you correctly. With respect to my question to you,
what, ifany, significance froman economic point of view, including agri-
culture, is to be attached by the honourable Court to ÿour phrase
"independent homelands"? What economic independence, if any, do you
envisage by the use of that phrase?
Mr. PEPLER:Sir, by economic indepeiidence 1mean opportunities over
and above agriculture alone can be created. Now, there are so many
naturaI resources in these different homelands where they can develop
different fcirmsof economies. In other words they can develop a diversi-
fied econorny, but 1 think 1have nlready mentioned that the boundaries
mentioned by you do not inclicate that the ecoiiomy must sustain itself
within those boundaries always. There uill always be an inter-reIated
economy. If I may quote the exnmple of Basutoland in the Republic:
the inhabitants are adrninistered by the British Government. They are
getting their independence, but 1do not think tl~at Basutoland, knowing
the territory as 1 know it, will ever become economically independent.
They have not got the resources to become economically independent
but there is an inter-related economy.In other words they buy food from
the Republican Government and whenever they have anything surplus
such as wool and so on, they market it through the Republican Govem-
ment. There is an inter-related economy.
Mr. GROSS:Would it then, Sir,be a fair distillation of the essence of
your response to Saythat when you used the phrase "independent home-236 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
lands" you did not intend to include economic independencc in that
concept or formulation?
Mr. PEPLER:Sir, one can be economically independent in the sense
that one can control one's own economy within tlie country, but there is
always such a thing as a commercial and export economy. When 1
referred to that 1had in mind the export econcimy too, which will be
inter-related just as we have it al1 over the world.
Mr. GROSS:Thank you, Sir. Now, specifically with reference to South
West Africa again, the Odendaal Commission report, on page 299,
paragraph 1248, referringto Namaland, the population of which is set
forth as 34,806, states as follows:
"As in thecase ofpracticallyallthotherhoinelands as wellasSouth
West Africa as a whoIe, this region will rernain dependent upon
supplies from elsewhere for its staple food requirements."
1s that a correct statement on the basis of your knowledge?
Mr. PEPLERT :hat is absolutely correct, Siand ifI may Say, which 1
omitted to do in my evidence yesterday, that is the case as far as the
whole of South West Africa is concerned. They still cannot produce al1
their food requirements and are dependent on the Republic for certain
food requirements.
Mr.GROSS: SOthat itis correct to say that with respect to the northern
area of the Territory generaliy they will be dependent on the outside to
meet their staple food requirementç-is this correct, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER:Tt is correct.
Mr. G~oss: Now also with respect to possible iiew industries in South
West Africa, and this isàpropos of your testimony yesterday, when you
were asked by learned counsel with respect to industry and commerce
development at page 217, supra, and following Eromthe verbatim, the
Odendaal Commission report at page 431, paragraph 1443 ,nder the
heading on the preceding page "Possible New Industries in South West
Africa" states as foIlows:
"The listof possibilitieis not impressive, and except for a few
relating to the fishing and rock lobster industry, and a possible
cement factory at one of five towns, it is clear that there are at
present no important or obvious possibilities which could lead to
large-scale developments."
Do you agree with the accuracy of this analysis of the economy of the
Territory with respect to industry and commerce?
Mr. PEPLER: ASfaras our present kno~vledgegoes, Sir, yes.
Mr. GROSS: SOthat in the development of plans for Bantu develop-
ment, is this premise, as set forth in the Odendaal Commission report,
a premise upon which your planning and policy also is based in Bantu
development ?
hlr. PEPLER: NO, Sir, not necessarily, because 1 have mentioned
yesterday that a geo-physical survey is being made to see what other
natural resources do exist which could be exploited.
Mr. GROSS:SO that the forecast on this point depends entirely on
exploration and is not yet completed-shall we put it that way, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER: Correct, Sir.
Mr. GROSS:On the basis of your present knowledge would it be,
however, correct to Say that your planning reflects the same assumption \VITNESSE5 AND EXPERTS 237
which is set forth in this reference from the Odendaal Commission
report with regard to new industries?
AIr.PEPLBK E:xcept, Sir, that1 do feelthat as far as karakul sheep
breeding is concerned, that could still advance and progress in the
Territory and as you are aware, Sir, karakul farming in South West
Africa istIibiggest source of income of the Territory. So 1foresee from
the agriculturül point of view thüt economic growtii can be stimulated
by improved karakul breeding in Namaland.
Mr. GROSS :hat ivould be in the northern area, would it, Sir?
blr.PEPLER: NO, in Namaland.
Mr. G~oss: That is in the southern sector.I see. So thnt with respect
to the northern areas, would there be any question about the accuracy
or validity of thisestirnate of the Odendaal Commission with respect to
new industries?
Mr. PEPLER:Sir, there are nstural resources such as the indigenouç
forest.. .
Mr. G~oss: 1 just wsnted to check for the sake of clarity, withthe
President's permission. 1 am referring to iiew, not ciiistin , industries.
The statenien t of the Odendnal Commission report, ivhich 'i have read,
refers to possibilities and saythey are not impressive, 1 wanted to ask
yoii forthe sake ofclarity, whether this relatestonorthern areas as well
as the sout.hern sector?
Mr. PEPLER : t thepresent stage itis not impressive, 1admit, escept
for Okovangoland andthe Eastern Caprivi where they have these indi-
genous forests and according to a survey made by Mr. Keet, a previous
Director of Forestry, and the figures that he actually arrived at, the
value of these indigenous forests in those areas amount to 68 million
rand.Now these have not yct been exploited at this stage.
Mr. GROSS: Now the exploitation of that, Sir, is that part of the
presently envisaged plan of your depart ment?
Mr. PEPLKR: Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROÇS: And is that budgetcd at the prescnt tirne, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER ':hat has been budgetcd for and actually provision has
been made for more factories.
Mr. GROSÇ: For the manufacture of furniture?
Mr. PEPLER For the mantifactiire of furniture.
Mr. GROS^ N:ow, Sir, again coming to this question ofthe furniture
rnanufacturing, 1 would refer in that specific context to the Odendaal
Commission report, in which the foliowing statement is made on page
435, in parag-raph1458:
"As regards other industries, [there are some listed previously,
cernent,fishing, etc.] the Commission cannot express any opinion,
because tlieir establishment rnust depend on entrepreneurs who are
prepared to venture into the various fields of enterprise. Special
attention should, hoivever, be given to the i:stablishment of a furni-
ture factory in Ovamboland. There is an abrindant supply of
excellentTransvaal teak in the eastern part of Ovamboland, which
is very suitable for iurniture."
Naw Sir, are you at allfarniliar with the problems for the finding of
entrepreneurs "prepared to venture into the vaiious fieldsofenterprise"
including the furniture factory which is suggesti:rl here?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir.For that specific reason, the Hantu Investment238 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Corporation was established in 1959 in the Republic of South Africa and
it also functions in South West Africa. According to the Act, theantu
Investment Corporation acts on behalf ofthe difierent national units. The
Bantu Investment Corporation are granted money by the Government
of South Africa and they operate on those funds. In the specific case of
the furniture factoryin Ovamboland, they havt: already invested over
~oo,ooorand in establishment of that and they act as entrepreneurs, the
idea being not to use private initiative therbut the Bantu Investment
Corporation, in terms of its Act,can employ people with the necessary
knowledge to advance 'that factory for them and 1 rnentioned in my
testimony yesterday, Sir, that they areatpresent also employing people
to instruct the Ovambo people to manufacture that furniture. Now that
will apply in the case of every factory that is opened in any one of those
territories, the Bantu Investment Corporation is the body that really
initiates industrialization.
Mr. G~oss: Excuse me. Thank you. Where are the headquaters or the
main offices of theBantu Investment Corporation?
Mr. PEPLER: The main office iç in Pretoria but they have branch
officesin quite a number of the homelands and in the case of South West
Africa they have a branck office in Ovamboland.
Mr. GROSS: And would the Bantu Investrnent Corporation have a
board of directors, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir. 1 mentioned yesterday that 1 am a director
myself.
Mr. GROSS A:re there any non-Whites who are members ofthe board
of directors,Sir?
Mr. PEPLER: NO,Sir.
Mr. GROSS: Could you explain whether that is a policy, Sir?
Rlr. PEPLER:That is a policy, yes.
Mr. GROSS: Not to have non-Whites, Sir?
Mr. PEPLERY : eç.
Mr. GROSS: Are the officials representing the Bantu Investment
Corporation in the Territory ail White?
Mr. PEPLER: NO, Sir. A large number are non-White.
Mr. GROSS: At officialevel?
hlr. PEPLER:Officiais, yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: What is the highest level which a. non-White occupies in
that structure,Sir?
Mr. PEPLER:Sir, there are few graduates in commerce and they act
in various and different capacitieç. At present, they are rnostly employed
by the Bantu Investment Corporation as adirective body to guide and
assist their own people in whatever enterprises there are-in trade, in
manufacturing, and al1that sort of thing.
Now, I may go further,Sir, and explain there too that it is actually
the policy of the Bantu Investment Corporation to bring on to its staff
as many qualified people as possible, the object being not only to keep
them as officials, but to give thean in-service training in such way
that they can ultirnately be the entrepreneurs iri any of those projects.
If I may cite an example, two whom 1know qualified at the university
of the North and have now left the Bantu Investment Corporation and
they are running their own businesses.
Mr. G~oss: Sir, what posts did those two, for exarnple, occupy in the
Bantu Investment Corporation during their service? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 239
>Ir.PEPLER 1:think they are commonly named Extension Officers of
theBantu Investment Corporation.
Mr. G~oss: And, speaking generally now, the non-IVhites who are on
the staff, you referred to this, 1 believe, Sir, do any of them supervise
White officials or employees?
hIr.PEPLEK: No, Sir, they do not supervise White employees.
Mr. GROSS:1s that a matter of policy, Sir?
hlr. PEPLER:Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSS W:ith respect, finallon this line, to minerals; you testified
in the record yt:sterday, at page 217, SZ@YU, you referred to the fact
that non-Whites "lacked not only means but slrills". You recall having
testified that, Sir?
Mr. PEPLEK :es, Sir.
Mr. GRCISSC : ould you explain to the Court, Sir, the reason for the
absence of skills in the context of your testimony?
Nr. PEPLER: Sir,what 1mean by that is that the Imites have more
capital resources...
Mr. CROSS: Iam not referring to means but skills. hiy question was
whether you could account for the lack of skills which you testified was
prevalent in the situation.
Mr. PEPLER: Sir, the opportunities are being offered for these people
who want to acquire the skillç, but one finds that there are not so many
of these people who want to enter into these different sectors, and that is
why, relatively speaking, there are far less with the necessary skills.
hir. CROSS:You are referring, Sir, in the context of your testimony,
to minerals. It is a fact, is it not, Sir, that there are some 8,000 or more
non-White employees in the mines in South West Africa?
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir, thais correct.
Mr. GROSS\:Yhen you refer to lack oskillsavailable in the northern
area, can you explain to the Court why it is that there is such a lack of
skills in the mineral industry when there is that number of non-White
employees in the mining industry at the present tirne?
Mr. PEPLEH :ir,1 was not only referring to mining. 1 was talking
about a gt:neral diversified economy,- that means in al1 the different
sectors of clevelopment.
Mr. G~oss: 1 think, Sir, that perhaps the record shouldbe clarified in
this respect.1takeit that, with respect to mining, you would not make
an exception, or would you make an exception to pour statement, your
general statement with regard to lack of skills available? Does that lack
also apply to the mining industry, as part of your response?
Mr. PEPLER: Sir, Iam sorrp but 1 do not know enough about the
mining industry in South West Africa to express an opinion on that.
Mr. G~oss: So that when you referred on page 217,supra, to "In the
case of the non-White, they still lack not only the means but also the
skill and the initiative",aith reference to the skill, the lack of skill,
you did not mean to include the mining industry in your aiiswcr. IS that
correct,Sir?
Mr. PEPLER Y:es, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: That is excluded?
Mr. PEPLER: Ves, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: U'ith respect to lack of skills in industryItake it that
that was within thc scope of your response yesterday, was it not?
hir.PEPLER: Yes, Sir.240 SOUTH WEST APRICA
Mr. GROÇS: Could you explain, in any detail you wish, the reason why
such skills are lacking in industry?
Nr. PEPLER: Sir,1 must talk of observations only because 1 have
definitely not made astudy of the different skilis1 have indicated that
people who desire to undertake anything in their respective homelands,
or even in the European areas reserved for them in the towns and so on,
can undertake anything, they are not prohibited fromundertaking any
enterprise. But in the case of the hornelands, which Iam representing
here, if they show the desire, even if they Iack the skills, then they are
assisted in developing those skills through the Bantu Investment Cor-
poration.
Mr. G~oss:Sir, I am simply trying to clarify the scope and intent of
your testimony yesterday. 1 am referring to page 217, szqbra, and 1
think you have now testified that in your responseyou rverenot intending
to refer to the mining industry.
Mr. PEPLER: Yes, Sir.
Mr. GROSST : hequestion addressed to you by Mr. Rluller was:
"Mr. Pepler, you have now dealt up to thisstage with agriculture
only ;[this içon page217, supra, of yesterday's verbatim record] can
you tell the Court what the approach is in other economic spheres-
industry, commerce, etc.?"
Then your response was :
"The approach is ~iaturally very much the same, but in the
European sector, of course, it is different in this sense:that the
European can act-he has the financial resources-as the entrepre-
neur he takes the initiative, he takes al1 the responsibilities in
respect of industry,and he has to find his own way. [And then you
went on to say] In the case of the non-White, they still Iack not only
the rneans but also the ski11and the initiative."
Now rny question to you, Sir, was with reference to the skills that you
Say were lacking. Leaving aside mining, as to which you are not testi-
fying, and tiirning to industry, would you explain, if you can, Sir, why
there is a lack ofskillsin the terms of your testiomony, in the economic
spheres, industry, commerce, etc. ?
hlr.PEPLER: Sir, in the case of industry, for instanceone who wants
to take the initiative in putting up a factory, requires engineers,requires
architects, requiresquite a number of technicians to put up a factory of
that nature. Then itisa case of administering that factory, and there are
not so many-apart from the means that these people do not have, but
which has been provided for now for they can obtain that through the
Investment Corporation-I cannot foresee that tl-iereare so rnany peopIe
with the skills who willbe capable of running a factory as it should be run,
knowing that the factory is a composite concern where people with
various types of education are required. For instance, 1shave indicated,
1can think of very few factories where engineers are not required, ~vhere
architects are not required, and al1that sort of thing, and thereare not
rnany people qualified for that purposeat present.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir. In respect of this elaboration of your response
ta MT.Muller yesterday, can you explain to the Court thereason for the
Iack of available skills in the enterprises you have just mentioned, for
example? Why?
Mr. PEPLER: Sir,1 cannot explain the reasons, because as 1 have said WITNESSES ASD EXPERTS 241
already, there are many provisions made for the people if they want to
acquire the knowledge. But then knowledge does 11otmean everything;
experience after knowledge counts more really than the basic knowledge,
1 should say.
Alr. GROSS:Precisely, Sir, and would it not, to put the same point in
a diffcrcntway, be correct to say that skills arenormallyacquired on the
job, and at work; is not that the normal nicthocl?
Mr. PEPLER: Up to a certain stage, Sir, but an cngineer cannot ever
clualify by in-service training.
hlr.CROSS:Now, Sir, in the case of tlie lack of skills in the respects
that you mentioned, having in mind thnt tliis is the forty-fifth vear of
the hlandate, do you have any specific information avaiIable to you
with respect to the restrictions or limitations upon the training ofon-
llThites? Do pou have any knowledge of that?
Mr. PEPLER N:ot in South West Africa, Sir.
hIr. GROSS:SO that your response to hlr. Muller, in testifying with
regard to separate development, without qualification of the point, to
which your testimony is directed, was not intended to cover the question
of limitations upon the training of non-\mites in South West Africa:
is that correct?
Alr.PEPLER : y testimony was based ori my knowledge of the people
and on the fact that 1know so few of them. 1 am,as I have explained,
hlr. President, Director of the Hantu Investment Corporation. 1 see al1
these applications that corne in [rom people wlio are interested in such
enterprises, and my judgment was hnsed upon my practical experience.
Mr. GROSS: NOW,Sir-incidentally, if we can get a flat, perhaps,
response to this-vou arc not awarc, or are you aware, of thejob restric-
tions and reservations in South IVest Africa? Are you aware of these, in
industry?
hlr.PEPLER X:o, Sir1 am not.
hIr. G~oss: 1should likeif 1may, Sir, and 1am coming, 31r.President,
to my conclusion, refer once more to the Odendaal Commission report,
page 311, paragraph 1283-its sub-paragraph No. (15) 1 should like
to read it since it is1think, within your precije area of responsibility,
and it cornes under the heading "Certain Observations and Recommen-
dations of the Odendaal Commission". It reads as follows (p. 311):
"That since the planning ancl establishment of agricultural
trainiiig centres andthe provisions of properly trained staff will take
at least a few years, consideration should also be given to the possi-
bility of meanwhile recruiting suitable non-White students for
training in agriculture at institutions in the Republic of South
Africa, and of providing them with the necessary financial assistance
tocomplete their courses."
Stopping there, before reading the next sentence, have there been, so
far as you know, any non-White studenis recriiited during the past 45
years for training in agriculture at institutions in the Republic of South
Africa witli provision of necessary funds?
Aïr.PEPLER: T can give a positive anstver on that, as 1 was deaIing
with that personatly when 1 was Director of Agriculture. On different
occasions tiremade it clear to thofficiaiin South M'est Africa that they
hacl to try to recruit people from the different nationaunits to come,to
the Republic of South Africa to take a diploma in agriculture; bursaries242 SOUTH WEST .4FRTC.4
were offered, free study-itwould not have cost them anything, but we
could not recruit one. At present we are again cndeavounng to obtain
students who are prepared to study agriculture in the Republic, but we
have not succceded in recruiting one yet. Now that is, 1 foresee, one of
Our difficulties that we are going to experience; we have planned an agri-
cultural training centre at Orongo in Ovambolai~d; we are prepared to
put up a second one, but if we cannot find the students, then 1 foresee
that we might cxperience a little difficulty.
&Ir.GROSS:Thank you, Sir, but the answer to rny question, if1 under-
stood you correctly, was that no non-White student has proceeded to
South dfrica for training in agriculture at institutions thcre?
hIr. PEPLER:Although the opportunities were offered.
hfr. GROSS:1 understand the qualification, but that is the fact, that
you have testified?
bir. PEPLER:Yes.
hfrG~oss :IVith regard to the Odendaal Commission recomrnendation
that consideration should be given to this as a possibilityhow do you
explain that recommendation composed in those terms in view of what
you have said about the past practice or effort?
Mr. PEPLER: 1was not consulted by the Odendaal Commission rnem-
bers, and actually1 do not know for what reason they have put that in,
but 1personally was responsible forinstructing the staff in South West
Africa to endeavour to recruit people and emphasized that we were
prepared to give free tuition, freetransportfacilities and everythingn
the Republic but we never got a recruit.
Mr. GROSS : ou said, i1underçtood you, thatthe Odendaal Commis-
sion had not consulted you?
Mr.PEPLER:T was not consnlted on this aspect.
hir. GROSS:Did you testify before the Commission?
blr.PEPLER :O.
. Mr. G~oss: \Vue you consulted on any other aspect of the policy?
hlr.PEPLER :O.
blr.GROSSO :fthe agricultural policy in South West Africa?
&Ir.PEPLER :he staff of the Odendaal Commission asked me to
submit quite a number of papers which 1 had previously prepared on
agriculture in South West Africa, and 1presume that they havemade use
ofthose, but theydid not ask me for evidence, nor did they consultme.
Mr. GROSS A:nd so faras you know, Sir,among the papers submitted
none related tothe training of agricultural students, that subject was
not covered?
hlr. PEPLERT:hat subject was not covered in my papers.
Mr. GROSS1 : see. Now may 1 proceed tothenext sentence in that same
paragraph-this is d@ro#os,yourecall, ofthe suggestion that possibility
be given to recruiting suitable non-\mite students for training in
agriculture at institutions in the Republic, and nowI read the second
sentence: "The media of instruction in the Republic of South Africa are
Afrikaans and English, and no Ianguage problems should therefore be
experienced in this connection." Going back to your previous testimony
with regard to the fact that your discussions and consultations in the
Temtory with non-Imites wasmainly, if not almost exclusively, through
interpreters, could you indicate on the basis of your knowledge whether
thedifficulty you described in obtaining recruifor these studiesmight
have been a consequence of language deficiency? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 243
Mr. PEPLER:1 would not think so, because the minimum scholastic
requiremeiit to enable a person to take his Diploma in Agriculture is
Standard S,and in the schools they are taught either English or Afrikaans
or both, sci1 do not think that should have been an impediment.
hlr. G~oss: 1s it regarded by you in the Ba~itu development process
and function that there be a widespread knowledge and ability to speak
English or Afrikaans or both on the part of the non-\Vhites in the
Territory?
Mr. PEPLERD : O you mean in the schools?
Mr. GROSS:No, in their lives.
hlr.PEPLER: Generally?
hlr. GROSS: Yes.
hlr. PEPLER:Yes.
Mr. GROSS:You think it is?
&Ir. PEPLER: Oh, yes-1 have come across maiiy, many who speak
both languages.
Mr.GROSS 1:think that you have answered rny question affirmatively,
and I would like to conclude the reading of this paragraph: "Many
students from Rhodesia and elsewhere have already received their
training in the Republic of South Africa." Can you explain tothe Court,
on the basis of your own knowledge, why it has proved possible to find
suitable recruits from Rhodesia and not from SouthWest Africa for this
purpose?
Mr. PEPLER: If 1 may endeavour an explanation-I do not Say it is
absolutely correct-but there are quite a large number of South Africans
in the agricultural field in Rhodesia. As a matter of fact, their last
Director of Agriculture was a South African, and it might be that these
people, having been accustomed to South Africa, have advised thern that
they could go there; that might be an explanation, but 1 do not say that
is the case, because the counter-question can be: why didn't the same
happen in South West Africa? Then my answer would be that the reaction
was not the same in South West Africa as it was in Khodesia.
Mr. GROSS:But you cannot explain the reason for that difference of
reaction?
Mr. PEPEER:NO, 1honestly cannot explain that.
Mr. G~oss: The Odendaal Commission report with respect to agricul-
tural techriicai services-page 309, paragraph 1283-in making recom-
mendations states-
"with a view to more efficient administration, the various territones
in South West Africa be grouped together as foliows:
(a) White Area.
(b) Southern Secfor (non-White areas)."
1 pause there. Do you feeI that you have covered in your testimony up
to this point adequately, from your point of view, the answer to the
question I now pose to you as to why and in what respects thisgrouping
on a White and a non-White basis would lead to more efficient adminis-
tration?
&Ir. PEPLER: Yes, that has been our experience-rny persona1 ex-
perience, too, in meetings with these people they have on many, many
occasions indicated that they wanted to retain their identity, and 1
think that is in full conformity with their expressed desires.
Mr. G~oss: 1 see. Now, efficiency of administration in that respect,244 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
then, is a corollary of the desire of the non-Whites to be adrninistered
separately-is that the purport of your answer?
Mr. PEPLER:Amongst their own national units.
Mr. G~oss: So that with respect to the desireçof thenon-ivhiteçin the
southern sector outside the Reserves, would you Say that the question of
their desires would be material or relevant?
Mr. PEPLER: 1 would Say we take full cognizance of their desires.
hlr. G~oss: Were they consulted, "they" being the non-Whites in the
southern sector outside the Reserves?
Mr. PEPLER:In what respect?
Mr. GROSS:In respect of this recomrnendation, if you know, of
grouping together for administrative purposes. Perhaps you do not know
the answer to that question?
Mr. PEPLER:1 do not know the answer.
hir. GROSS:That is the answer to it.
The PRESIDENT:Mr. Muller?
Mr. MULLER :1 think in fairness to the witness rny learned friendshould
put to him that al1this is under a heading of "Expansion of Agricultural
Technical Services", and that the whole of the recornmendation relates
to agricultural technicalservices.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, 1think that my learned friend will find tha1precisely
stated that this is under the heading "Agricultural Technical Services".
The PRESIDENT1 :did not notice it, rnyself.
Mr. G~oss:Yes, Sir. If did not, itwas purely an omission on rny part
-1 know I intended to.
Proceeding now to sub-paragraph (2) in paragraph 1283 on page 309,
the following recommendation is made:
"That, foragro-economic reasons, the honielands in the Northern
Sector be grouped as foliows:
(a) Ovnmbo-Okavango Cornplex: . . .
(b) HEY~YO-DnmaC raornplex:.. .",
and so forth; 1 wiUpause there. Can you explain, if youknow, what the
Ovambo-Okavango Complex means in this respect-in respect of this
recomrnendation for so-called grouping of the area?
Mr. PEPLER:1 cannot Say that 1 have an authentic exphnation, but
the grouping has historical backgrounds. The Ovambo people settled
themselves in what was ultimately called Ovamboland, whereas the
Okavango people, who 1 indicated yesterday consist of approximately
five tribes, settled themselves in Okavangoland, aiong the Okavango
River; and my presumption is that the Odendanl Commission felt that
they did not want to upset that structure. 1may add, too, that in meet-
ings that we conducted in Ovamboland, they invariably stated that
they wanted to retain their boundaries, and that they wanted to retain
their identities.
Mr. GROSS:It is not mv purpose to go into the purely hypoth.tica1
and contingent planning for the so-called homelands, but I should like to
address the question to you as an agricultural expert, what significance
is to be attached, if any, to the characterizatiori of OvarnboIand, Oka-
vangoland, Bushrnanland and Western Caprivi as an "Ovambo-Oka-
vango CompIex" in this context? What does that grouping mean .with
respect to the four areas designated? Does this rnean that they will be
operated as a unit in certain respects? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
245
The PRESIDENT : For agro-economic reasons.
Mr. GROSS: 1 do not understand that phrase. Sir.
The PRESIDENTW : ell, isays, you see, for agro-economic reasons, the
grouping should be in that complex.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir, but it does not explain, Sir, with respect, what
happens, how it is to be administered, andmy qiiestion was1 am afraid,
clumsily fashioned. In respect of this grouping for the agro-economic
reasons, what would be the administrative or structural form in which
this, so-called, complex would beadminjstered--if you know, Sir?
Mr. PEPI-ER:Sir, if it iç in the sense of the agro-economic regions,1
would like to explain that, that is now as an agriculturalist from the
scientific point of view, the area has been divided into 16 different agro-
economic regions . . .
Mr. GROSS :o, "reasons" is the word, Sir.1 am afraid jrou misunder-
stood me. Reasons-for agro-economic reasons. My question, Sir, is:
For those reasons, what u70uldbe the administrative, or governrnental,
or other structure,which would be designed, if you know, to relate to
these reasons? Perhaps you do not know the anjwer to it, Sir?
Mr. PEPLER: Sir,I think 1 do understand what is meant by that.
In other words, let us take the Ovambo people, again, as such-that the
concentration will be on the Ovambo people, as such, the object being
to train their own people, tguide them on the agricultural lines so that
they have t.heir own people as teachers, as agricultural extension oficers,
etc.
Kaokoveld, for instance, is, again, inhabited by the Herero people,
the idea being, again to train, to establis11 a centre where the Herero
people will have the opportunities of being trainedy their own people,
of being guided and assisted by their own people.1 think that is mainly
what is meant by the agro-ecological ...
Mr. GROSS: The agro-economic reasons relate, Sir, to-1 will not
pursue this too much further but it would be helpful, 1 think, to have
clarity botli imy question and response. The extract which 1 have read
says that "for agro-economic reasons the Homelands in the Northern
Sector be grouped as follo~vs",and one grouping which Itake as illustra-
tive (there are two mentioned) is the Ovambo-Olcavango complex, and it
suggests by itslisting that four projected homelaiids (without mentioning
that term) should be dealt: with as a complex. My question, Sir,to you
is-what are the implications of that (if you know, with respect) to the
administrative structure that presumably would be intended to carry
know, Sir? Perhapsr youchdohnot? recomrnendation is made? Do you
Mr. PEPLER: NO, Sir. What I understand by that is that the agro-
ecological conditions are more or less the same and what is actually
meant by that is that development can take place in Ovamboland but a
different fcrm of deveIopment can take place in Okavangoland, and
that separate administrations must be developed for these different areas
because th<:approach will be different.
Mr. GROSSS : Othat, Sir, so far as treatiiig them as a complex is con-
cerned, yoil have no light to...
Mr. PEPI.ER:1 have no light on what ismeant by a complex asused in
that context.
Mr. GROSS: Thank you, Sir.
Now, just one final question. \l'olildyou be prepared to summarize246 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
your testimony in the following terms, as used in the Odendaal Com-
mission report, on page 427, paragraph 1433. Uecause it is a fairly
lengthy paragraph, from which 1 propose to read not more than three
sentences, 1shall identify the first sentence, for the convenience of the
Court, as occurring towards the bottom of the first left-hand column on
page 427, in paragraph 1433 .he sentence to which 1 would cal1 your
attention, Sir, reads as follows, and1would be glad to read the intro-
duction if the mcaning of thissentence is not clear because of the context :
"Consequently, agroup gives preference to its own group members
in regard to opportunities within its group, so that members of
another group are handicapped or excluded from the activities of
the group, other members being admitted only in so far as they are
supplementary to the group and not cornpetitive."
The other sentence, which 1 should like to read, is in the second para-
graph on page 427, on the right-hand column, and it reads as follows:
"The result of this phenomenon [and the phenomenon relates to
problems in] underdeveloped territories where economic opportuni-
ties are limited and where group loyalties are very strong and
dominate the individual's lif.. ."
The PKESII)ENT : here are you reading frorn there, Mr. Gross?
Mr. GROSS :hnt is the top of page 427, on the right-hand column,
the second full sentence. To corne back to the last paragraph of 1433:
"The result of this phenornenon is, therefore, that there is socio-
economic mobility within a group for its members and that their
mobilityoutside is restricted to the extent to which they are supple-
mentary to other groups. This phenomenon manifests itself at the
international level in a high degree of interna1 (homogeneous ethnic
group) socio-economic mobility, in contrast with a low degree of
international mobility. Thus the group or nation offers its members
the most favourable atmosphere and opportunities to develop
progressively. Similarly the groupoffers its members security by
protecting them against 'unfair' infiltration by members of other
groups. [And then it concludes] In this way the group or nation
fulfils a very important socio-economicwelfare and developmental
function."
Now, extracting from that le'ngthy and somewhat complex series of
basic premises of the Odendaal Commission,which it regarded apparently
as of vital significance1would like to ask you, Sir, whether you agree
that, in the situation prevailingin South West Africa, the premise of
separate development, to which you have directed your testimony, is
based upon the policy and approach that there is a White group which
has its membership, from which the non-White group are excluded,
escept as they are supplementarp to the iVhite group, and, conversely,
that there is a non-\Vhite group, or groups, from which \irhites are ex-
cluded from membership, except in so far as they are supprementary to
the non-White groups. 1s this essentially the premise from which you
proceed in your testimony with regard to the desirability, or necessity,
of apartheid?
hlr. PEPLER: Sir, yes, that is the positioAs 1 have explained yes-
terday, the approach in the techniques of promoting agriculture-this WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 247
is my specific subject,1 am not talking about other spheres of develop-
ment-is that the different groups have reached differentstages of devel-
opment, and, now when 1 say that, 1 mean that different non-White
groups havc also reached different stages of development. I think 1
indicated that in my testimony yesterday.
If one were to take the Bushrnen group, as such; the Odendaal report
defined an area, or two separate areas actually, which they have specially
recommended to be reserved for the Bushmen people. If amore advanced
people amongst the White group were to cnter the boundaries of what iç
proposed to be, ultimately the Bushmen homeland, where-they can also
develop, then it stands to reason that the mare advanced people can also
exploit the Bushmen, which means that they will not be able to build
themselves up to the state where they can have their ultimate self-
determination, but that they may be subjected to exploitation by those
other peoples and 1 think this is what the Odendanl Commission report
wishes to convey in that context.
Mr. GROSSA :nd, Sir, with respectto the other side of the picture-of
the non-White in the White sector of the economy, as it is described in
the Odendaal Cominission report-the non-White is there asa temporary
sojourner, or as a guest, as the Prime Jlinister has said, for whatever
reason he rnay be there,isthat the corollary of rvhat you have described
for the other side of the line?
Mr. PEPJ,ER Y:CS, Sir.
Illr.G~oss: Now, Sir, finally, with respect to the future, in your
planning and policy, do you envisage a permanent system in which thiç
concept willbe applied?
Mr. PEPLERS :ir,if 1 may express an opinion 011that, 1 do not think
that one must regard this policyof separate development as something
to be static.It is really a dynarnic policy and 1 do not foresee that these
different n:itional groups will always be bound and confined to their in-
lrvidual groups. So, if theyso desire-and I would like to stress the word
theyW-to corne together, to form a federation, or whatever the case
may be, 1do not think there would be anytliing prohibiting tham from
doing so, but that 1 can only foresee as happening in the future. The
policy of separate development is really based on the foundation of
building up these people, as 1 have already cxplained, to a stage ofself-
determination. Once they have that self-determination, 1do not seeu7hy
they should be forbidden by anybody if theyof tlieiobvn wish and desire,
want toform :federation, and so on. Tli;it is what 1foresee for the future,
Sir.1 may be wrong.
Mr. GROSS :ow ivith respect tothe White economy, the \Vhite sector,
does the same reasoning apply that it is the White group as a matter of
"self-determination" which decides the degree to urhich the freedoms and
advancement of the non-Whites shall be subjected in the \Vhite sector?
Mr. PEPLERC : outdthat question be repeated, Sir?
Mr. G~oss: Yeç, Sir. IlTith res ect to your testimony concerning the
policy in the non-\Vhite area-f am now asking with respect to the
White sector-and in that sector, Sir, would you apply the same reasoning
and policy to it that the White group, ~ho arc members of the White
economy, fiy the exercise ofself-determination, which isthe phrase you
used on thc other side of the line, will determine the extent and quality
of the limitations of freedom and advancement which shall be imposed
upon the non-White group in their sector?248 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
The PRESIDEN That is a diffcrcnt proposition altogcther to what the
witneçs has bcen speaking about.
Mr. G~oss: Witl-iyour permission, Sir, 1 should like to withdraw the
previous question and pose thiç one.
hlr.PEPLEII: 1have answered to the first question, Sir.
Mr. Gaoss: You answered in terms of the non-\.lrhite areas,Sir-1 am
referring to the White sector, and1 ask you ...
Mr. PEPLERS :ir,niy arisivcto that is that that is a projection of a
future political structure, on which 1, honestly, am not an authority,
and ifyouwould excuseme, 1am not prepared toespreçs an opinion on that.
RIr. Gitoss: No further questions, Sir.
The PRESIDENTT :hank you, Mr. Gross. Judge Jessup, 1 think wishes
to ask a question. Judge Jessup.
Judge JESSUP: hlr. Pepler,Iwould like to ask you to give the Court a
few additional points of factual information in connection with your
testimony and, in asking these questions, Ihope you will realize that1
have in mind the stress you have laid upon the differences between
different groups and nlso your particular empfiasis upon the necessity
for patience and forevolutionary procesçes, and 1am not asking you to
look into the future but rather to give us information about the past. 1
am interested to know about how long some of the developments you
deçcribed took to move from initiation to completion. May 1, as an
example, take your reference to thc developrnent of the Bushmen and,
aç 1 understand it, you were talking about the same experiment or
development which is dealt with in the Odendaal Commission report at
page 29, at a place known as Tsumkwe. You said that first you must start
and bore the holes, get water and accustom them to coming for the water,
and that after a while you rnight bring goats and cattle, and then later
SOU could teach them to plant. Can you tell me about how much time
elapsed between the first boring of the waterholes and the eventual
settlingof these people using their goats and cattle and plants?
Xr. PEPLER A:pproxirnately two-and-a-half yearç, Sir.
Judge JESSUP:Thank you. And did that experiment or development
begin berore 1961,when you became Director of Bantu Development?
hlr.PEPLER: Yes, Sir. If 1remember correctly. it started 1958,but I
am not positive of that date, Sir, but it was befor1961.
Judge JESSUP: And in a similar context, when you spoke of thedevel-
opment of home industries, how long from the time you induced them
to begin develop tliese industries do you find a satisfactory evolutiin
terrns of production?
hlr. PEPLEH :ir, if T could esplain it this way, as 1 said yesterday
in my testimony, they have an aptitude for these things.Kow the diffi-
culty in the paçt had been that there was not always a ready market for
their home-craft products, so it stands to reason that quiaenumber of
them did not take the keen interest in home crafts that they did in the
past, but since tourism has gone apace now in South West Africa, as
well as in the Republic, it is Our special endeavour to assist them and
guide them, and point out to them that they can manufacture these
things; that they can bring them to central points and that these things
will beacquired.If1 may çay about this position, as 1explained it to the
officiaiwith whom 1am dealing in encouraging this, a man, for instance,
makes walking-sticks (and they can make very fine walking-sticks, Sir)
then he has to go to a road and he must try to sel1 his product there. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 249
Now, it might take him a day, or it might tnke him three days to sel1
his product. Tourists come along-one might be prepared to pay his
price. You find a type of man who is geiierouç, who feels that a lot of
work haç tieen put into a thing, and he says "liou are charging me too
little,1 willpay you more for it"; but you get the other type again, who
says "You are charging me far too much for this" and he starts bargaining
withhim which 1,personally, as an officia1representing the Department,
feel is unfair towards him. So we started in South West Africa by nego-
tiating witli the Administration itself, askinit "Kow, look here, do en-
courage these people. You have the Etosha Game Reserve there, buy
these prodiicts from them and çell them".
The idea is that we feel it is a culture that should definitely notdie
out arnongst these people, and we want them to rctain quality and for
that reasori we are encouraging it and itis quite obvious that it has an
outlet and ...
Judge JESSUP: But, Mr. Pepler, what 1am trying to get at is how long
some of these processes take? l'ou said, in connection with the Bushmen
project, two-and-a-half years. From the time you began to develop these
home industries until the time when you got a fiow of goods to market,
so to speak, is it a question of one or two years, or five years?
Mr. PEPI-ER: NO.In the case of home industries 1 am really optimistic
that it would take not more than two years, hecause once they know
there is a ready market it is inherent in them to make these things.
Judge JESSUP:Now, another development you spoke of, 1 think, in
Ovarnbolarid. l'ou said that you finally were able to convince them of
the advantage of using manure in their moulds where they were growing
their crops. How long a process of persuasion or indoctrination before
they began to adopt this method?
Mr. PEPLER: Sir, it is a very gradua1 process. One first of al1 has to
demonstrate this to them, then onegets a few falling in mith the idea and
then it gradually works up and . . .
Judge Jirssvp: Within a question of two or tliree years?
Rb. PEPLER:In the case of Ovamboland, Sir, about five years.
Judge JESSUP: Then you testified and you discussed it again this
morning tkiat, in certain instances, some of the non-White groups had
entered into the market economy, or the money economy. Am 1 correct
in understanding, from your testimony, that you conçider that progress
desirable? You wish to have them move on into a market economy?
Mr. PEFI-ER: Yes, Sir.
Judge JICSSUP:Or money economy?
Mr. PEPLER:Yes, Sir.
Judge JESSUP:Then you also testified at pages 216 and 217, supra,
yesterday, that in certain caseç persons would work for a while and then
Say, well, we have enough money now- and Ive will just reIax for a few
years. 1 an1 interested to know whether, in your programme, you have
any methods or devices for persuading these people of the advantage of
accumulati-g- additional money and entering into the money economy,
so to speak?
&Ir. PEPI-ER: Yes, Sir, we do. That iç one of oiir specific taçks, that we
do encourage them. \Ve advise them about s;~vings banks and+there
are quite a number today-not so much in South West Africa as inthe
Republic-who are already making extensive use of savings banks and
so on. And they have quite a number who have come to the stage where250 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
they do not believe in just numbers, but qualitand as soon as they have
more than they can actually carry, they market the stuff.
Judge JESSUP:And if these people were among the peoples who like
to own cattle, would you be prepared to show them a source from which
they could buy more cattle with these extra funds they are earning?
Mr. PEPLER:Yes, Sir. Ive assist them not only in marketing cattle,
but we also assist them otherwise. If 1 may explain, we feel that we
cannot just tell these people "Go to suchand such a place and you can
buy improved sires", say. Our government officials go and they buy
these irnproved sires; they bring them to central spots and they offer
them to these people and advise them. Now these sires are available
here, or improved cows, etc., and they even get these at subsidized
prices, Sir. They do not pay the full price that the Mandatory or the
Government has paid.
Judge JESSUP:Thank you. Now this is a different type of question.
Under Bantu Development, does the development of the Coloureds corne
under your jurisdiction?
hlr. PEPLER: NO, Sir, that is separate.
Judge JESSUP:1s there a separate organization . ..?
Mr. PEPLER :es, Sir, there is a special department for Coloured
affairs.
Judge JESSUP: One other point-this ismy last. You have at several
points referred to the comparative developments in the Transkei-can
you indicate to the Court whether those developments began earlier in
time than comparable developrnents in South West Africa?
Mr. PEPLER:Yes, Sir.
Judge JESÇUP: Or did they ali begin about the same time?
Mr. PEPLER: NO, Sir, in the Transkei they started, 1 think, in1915,
if 1remember correctly, because the first agricultural school that was
put up there was in the early twenties.
Judge JESSUP: And at the present time, in the homelands in the
Republic of South Africa, is the amount of money, personnel and effort
devoted to the development of the homelands and the people in them
more or less equivalent to the comparable effort in South West Africa,
ifyou compare the two?
Mr. PEPLER S:ir, Yes. Can1 put it this way, that as far as funds-the
allotment of funds, or the allocation, ratherof funds-for the develop-
ment projects are concerned (1have invariably, and on several public
occasions, made the statement), we have never yet had a scarcity of
funds. Over the last ten years the provision oi funds has never been a
problem-we have always received al1the funds which were required, but
as 1indicated yesterday, we are a little scared to go too fastwithphys-
ical development. We must alwayskeep balanced development in mind-
that is, the human developrnent-as well as the physical development.
Judge JESSUP: Thank you, Sir. That is all, Mr. President.
[Public hearing of30 September19651
The PRESIDENT:The hearing is resumed. There being no further
questions of AIr.Pepler from Aiembers of the Court, Mr. illuller, do you
desire tore-examine?
Mr. MULLER: 1 have no further questions, thank you. hlr.Pepler has
indicated to me that, since reading the record, he would like to explain WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 251
an answer given to one of the questionsasked by Judge Jessup yesterday,
ifthe Court will permit him to do so.
The PRESIDENT:Would you first indicate upon the transcript at what
particular page, without indicating what is the explanation which isto
be given?
Mr. MULLER: Yes, I shalI, Mr. President. At page 248, szrpra,of the
record of yesterday.
The PRESIDENT:Very well. Mr. Pepler, 1 uriderstand you desire to
make an explanation or modification or amplification of some statement
you made in relation to a question put to you t)yJudge Jessup, is that
correct ?
Bir.PEPI-ER :lease, Sir, if 1 rnay do so.
The PRESIDENT: Would you kindly proçeed and do so?
hlr.PEPLER : ir, the question was putby Judge Jessup after he had
explained what exactly he desired ; he ended.up by saying :
"Can you tell meabout horv much tirnc elapsed between the first
boring of the water holes and the eventual settling of these people
using their goats and cattle and plants?"
In thisrespect he referred to a place known as Tsumkrve. hlr. President,
when 1 replied to that question 1specifically had Tsumkwe in mind, and
my reply to that was "Approximately two-and-a-half years". Un-
fortunately 1 omitted to say that previous to that quite a number of
bore-holes and watering wells had been sunk at various places to enable
these people, the Bushmen people, togather there,and they were actually
given food therc and medical treatment. When 'Tsurnkwewas established,
and a special Bushman Affairs Commissioner was appointed and sta-
tioned at Tsumkwe, then the Rushmen people were encouraged to settle
around Tsurnkwc, and 1 had Tsumkwe specificallÿ in mind in answering
the question; but what 1 would liketo explain to the Court is that these
watering points, wells, etc., were establishedquitc a number of years
before that, and quite a number of the Rushrnen people were attracted
from those wells to Tsurnkwe and afterthey had been conditioned at the
other places, and came to Tsuinkwe, it took approximately two-and-a-
half years -forthem to accept goats, cattle, and to start planting vege-
tables; that is what 1would like to explain to tlie Court.
The PRESIDENT :hat isal1 tliat you desire to addMr. Pepler?
Rlr.PEPIXR: Thank you, Sir.
The PRESIDENT noes Judge Jessup desire to put any further questions
at all?
Judge JE:SSUP: No thank you, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT: Well then, Mr. Muller, the witness may leave.
Mr. MULLER T:hank you, Mr. Pepler. Mr. President, the next witness
wnrilblDr.Van Zyl, and with the permission of the Court Dr. Rabie wiIL
introduce the witness and put certain questions to him.
The PREÇIDENT:Mr. hluller, Mr. Pepler willbe released from further
attendance, unless you are informed to the contrary by midday.
Mr. MULLER:1 thank you, Mr. President.
Mr. ICARIEM : ay it plesse the Court, Rlr.President, Dr. Van Zyl's
evidence relates to Applicants' Submissions Nos. 3 and 4. As set out
in a letter to the Deputy-Registrar of the Court. on 30 Julyl, a copy of
SeeXII, l'arIV.2.52 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
which was sent to the Applicants' Agents, Dr. Van Zyl's evidence will
be directed to the following points, andquote from that letter:
"Considerations underlying differenteducation for the various
population groups in South Africa and South West Africa. The basic
principles of thentu Education System, its application and effects.
The probable consequences ofdoing away with differentimeasures
in the educational field."
Rlr. President, the Applicants were also notionthe 28th instant that
Dr. Van Zyl would not deal with education at the university level, and
that Professor Rautenbach, whose name appears on tlie Respondent's
list of witncsses, would deal specifically with university education.
May 1 now introduce the witness,JIr.President, and ask that he be
allowed to make both the declarations provided for in the Kules, that is,
both as witness and expert?
The PRESIDENT Let the declarations be made. Will you make the
declarations, Doctor?
Alr.VANZYL:In my capacityas a witnes s,solemnly declare upon
my honour and conscience that1 will speak the truthtlie whole truth,
and nothing but the truth. In my capacity as an expert, 1 solemnly
declare upon my honour and conscience that my statement will be in
accordance with my sincere belief.
The PKESIDEN T :ank you.
Mr. RABIE: Dr: Van Zyl,your full names are Hendrik Johann Van
Zyl?
Mr. VANZYL:Yes, &Ir.President,
Blr.RABIE: YOUare at the moment Deputy-Secretary of the Depart-
ment ofBantu Education; you are stationed in Pretoria?
Mr. VANLYL: Yes, &Ir.President.
&Ir.RABIE: In your capacityassuch, pou are mainly concerned with
Bantu primary and secondary education and vocational and teacher
training, is that right?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Mr.. RARIE:In regard to academic qualifications, you have a B.A.
Degree, and your major subjects of study were Bantu Languages and
Anthropology, isthat right?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, air. President.
Mr. RABIE: YOUa1so have an b1.A. Degree in Anthropology and a
Ph.D. Degree, also in Anthropology ?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes, hlr. President.
Mr. RABKED :r.VanZyl,do you have a knowledge of Nativelanguages
spoken in South Africa?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE: DO you speak any of them?
Jlr.VAN ZYL: \'es,Mr. President.
hlr.RABIE: HOWmany?
Mr. VANZYI.:Three, 1 should say.
Mr. RABIE: YOUspeak threc, and do you have a knowledge of any
others?
hlr.VAN ZYL: 1have a working knowledge of a fourth,MT.President.
hlr. RABIE:You speak three and have a working knowledge of a
fourth one,Sir. You started off your career as a teache1937, iç that
right? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 253
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE: And during the next four years you taught in a few
European schools, and also in two Native teacller-training institutions,
isthat correct?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, h~r.President.
%Ir.KAB~E :n 1942 you became a Principal in a Bantu High Scliool
in the Xorthern Transvaal,is that right?
Mr. VANZYL: Correct, blr. President.
Mr. RABIE:Arid you held that post unti1948?
Mr. VANZYL: Correct, itlr. President.
Mr. RABIE: During the years 1937-1948 y011also taught a Native
language, Northern Sotho, as a subject, is that iight?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Mr. RABLE : What did you do during the years after 1948-letus Say
from 1948-1957, when you took another post?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Mr. President,1 was Inspector ofBantu Education
from 1948-1957, when I was appointed ProfessionalAssistant in the
Department of Bantu Education. After tliat1 became Under-Secretary
for the Department of Bantu Education, and at present 1am holding the
post of De~iuty-Secretary for the Department of Bantu Education.
Mr. RABIE :Would you just state in a few words what your duties were
when you were an Inspector ofBantu Education?
Mr. VAN ZYL: 1 had to inspect primary and st:condary school~as well
as teacher-training institutioand give guidance to teachers generally.
Mr. RABIE In 1957 YOU went to Head Office of the Bantu Education
Department inPretoria,and then became an administrator, is that right?
Mr. VANZYL: That is right, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE: In 1958 you were Chairman of the Commission of Enquiry
appointed by the South West Africa Administration into Native and
Coloured Education in South West Africa, is that correct?
Mr. VAN ZYL: That is right, Mr. President.
Mr. RABTE :nd for that purpose you spent some months in South
West Africa?
Mr. VANZYL: That is righthlr.President.
Mr. RABIE :uring that period you had to make a study of the different
population groups inthe country?
Mr. VANZYL:I did,Mr. President.
Rlr.RABIE: Have you also visited South West Africa on other OC-
casions?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, subsequently on two occasions.
Mr. RABIE: In 1964,from April to July, you visited the United States,
and you visited various educational institutions in different parts of the
country,is that right?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Blr.RABIE: In 1957 you represented your Department at what is
usually called thC.C.T.A.Confercnce at Tananarive, Madagascar?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes,Mr. President.
MT. RAME: 1believeitwas a conferencedealing mith technicalsubjects,
or something ofthe kind?
Mr. VANZYL:A conference for the CO-operaiionof technical services
in Africa.
Mr. RABTE Y:OUare also a member of the Joint Matriculation Board
in South Africa?254 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. VANZYL: Yes,Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE: What does that Board do-wouid you just Say, ia few
words?
Mr. VAN ZYL: The Joint Matriculation Board exercises control over
the standards at the rnatriculation level in the RepofSouth Africa,
that is, to ensure that al1 the different education departments tome
the same standard at the end oal1the school curricula.
Mr. RABIE: Xatriculationis the final year of the secondary school
course in South Africa?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes,MT . resident.
Mr. RABIE: YOUare Chairman of theCommitteefor Bantu Languages
of that Joint Matriculation Board?
bIr.VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE: You are also a moderator of matriculation examination
papers in three Native languages of South Africa?
Mr. VANZYL: That is right, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE: What does a moderator do, would you Say briefly?
Mr. VAN ZYL: In the first instathe moderator has to give guidance
to the examiners, and then moderate the papers which are set for the
different examinations to see that they are up to the required standard,
and then, after the examination has been written, a sample of the scripts
presented by the candidates is subrnitted to the moderator, and he has
got to go through these scripts to see whether in marking the examiner
has maintained the required standard.
Mr. RABIE: Dr. Van Zyl, you are the author of a number or series of
what are called "graded language manuals" for use in both primary and
secondary schools in two Native languages?
Mr.VANZYL: That is correctMr. President.
Mr. RABIE : These have been published over number of years?
Mr.VANZYL:Yes, Mr. President.
Mr.KABIE :nd they are also ilsed in Bantu schools?
Mr. VAN ZYL: That is correct, Mr. President.
Mr.RABIE: You have also written a book callA PracticalGuidefor
Bantu Teachers.1s that right?
Nr.VANZYL: Correct, yes.
Mr.RABIE: And you have translated into Northern Sotho, which is a
Native language used in South Africa,series of graded anthmetic books
for use in lower and higher primary schools.
RlrVANZYL: That is right, Mr. President.
Mr.RABIE: And you have published an English translation and notes
of a collection of traditional Northern Sotho praise poems?
Nr. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Rlr.RABIE: And, in addition to that, you have writtea number of
works of an anthropological nature in both English and Afrikaans?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE: One of them, 1 believe, concerns games played by the
Northern Sotho peopIe of the Northern Transvaal and another is an
anthropological study of the economic lafSoiith African Bantu tribe?
Mr. VAN ZYL: That is correctMr. President.
Mr. RABIE: Finally, you have writtenseveral Afrikaans readersfor
use in Bantu schools?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Mr. RABIE: Now, Dr. Van Zyl, could you explain briefly to the Court WITNESSES Ah'D EXPERTS 255
to what extent there is differentiation in the education of the different
population groups in South Africa and South West Africa?
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. President, there are eight education departments
in the Republic of South Africa, established mainly for geographical and
cultural, ii~cluding Ianguage, reasons and there are four provincial
education departments for Whites, one national department for Whites
providing mainly technical and vocational training; thereis one educa-
tion department for Coloureds; there is one education department for
Indians and one education department for Bantu, with six regional
offices. In South West Africa there is only one education department,
with a sub-section for \Vhite and Coloured children and another for Bantu
children. The Odendaal Commission recommended that Native education
ip South West Africa be transferred to the Bantu Education Departmcnt
in the Republic.of South Africaand, according to a \Vhite Paper, which
1 believe is before this Court, issued by the Government in connection
with the recom~nendations of this Commission, the transfer of the
educational services for Bantu in South ilTest Africa to the Department
of Bantu Education has been accepted, inprinciple,by the Government,
but its implementation has been deferred. Then, 1should add, hlr. Presi-
dent, that the education departments for White5 and Coloureds in both
areas have separate schools for English-çpeaking and Afrikaans-speaking
pupils. The Departrnent of Bantu Education has separate schools for
seven different language groups, and in South West Africa there are also
separate sdiools for difierent languagegroupsamong the Rantu. 1should
perhaps also mention that there are separate universities also for the
different population groups.
Mr. KABIE : Now, Dr. Van Zyl,are curricula and examinations in the
schools of the various groups in South Africa the same?
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. President, curricula for al1dcpartments are virtually
the sarne, that is, the same subjects are of£ered by al1 the different
education departments. Each department has itsown syllabuses, which
are substantially also the same as those of other departments and Vary
only in so fa.ras content and method are determinedby factors of culture,
tradition and background, but at the top level, that is, at the end of the
secondary course, the standards for al1 syllabuses and examinations are
the same and are controlled by the body to which we have just referred-
the Joint Watriculation Board.
The facilities, equipment, teaching aids, etc., inay differ frdepart-
ment to department, depending on local circumstances, the particular
needs of a group, etc., but the minimum requirements are, however, laid
down to ençure adequacy of standards.
Then, hlr. President, each department conducts its own examinations
quite independently up to the junior certificate level.
Mr. RABIE: IVould YOU just stop there and say what is meant by
junior certificate?
Mr. VAN Zn: Yes. Mr. President, 1 was also going to explainwhy we
sooften refer to examinations in the Republic of South Africaand ais0
in South West Africa, whereas in other countries my experience is that
extcrnal examinations do not play such an important role, but in the
Republic of South Africa, and also in South lest Africa, standards are
mainly ensured by way of a system of external examinations conducted
by various examining bodies.
Now, &Ir. President, the junior certificate course is the first course256 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
taken ai the secondary level. PupiIs who emerge from the prirnyy
school, or the elementary school, into the sccoiidary school takc a junior
certificate course, whichxtends over tliree years and which is followed
by the senior certificate course, which ends up in the matriculation
examin at'ion.
&Ir.RABIE: Yes. You said, when 1 interrupted you,that cach depart-
ment conducts its own examinations up to the junior certificate level and
you have now said that there is uniformity at the matriculation level?
Mr. VAN ZYL: That is right, hlr. President.
Mr. RABIE: Now, could you just Say what examinations 13antu stu-
dents inSouth Africa and South IVest Africa write?
A,!r.VANZYL: Bantu students in the Republic of South Africa write
the junior certificate examination, which is also a public examination
conducted externally by the Departmelit of Uantu Education itself.
Bantu students write that examination and also Baritu studeiits in South
West Africa are called upoii to write that examination because they
follow the same syllabuses. Rut when we corne to the matriculation
examination, we have decided not to introduce a specific matriculation
course, or examination, for the Department of Bantu Education, and
Bantu candidates in the Republic, and also those of South West Africa,
are to write the matriculation examinations conducted by the Joint
Alatriculation Board itself, or the examinations conducted by the
Department of Education, Arts and Science. 'That is the Department,
Mr. President, to which 1 referred in the beginning, which is a national
department providing mainly for technical and vocational training.
Mr. RABIE: Now, the iiext, witness is going to deal with univcrsity
education, but could you just briefly indicaie, while we areon the subject,
how those universities are run?
hIr.VAN ZYL: Mi. President, as 1 have indicated, there are separate
universities for the different populationgroups. These universities are
independent. The university colleges mainly attendcd by Bantu students
are also run by their own councils andenates but, for academic purposes,
they are linked with the University of South Africa.
Mr. RABIE: My next question, Dr. IranZyl is: hasthere ever been an
integrated systern of education in South Africa or in South liTestAfrica?
Mr. VANZYL: AIr. President, there were attempts at integration in
turo territories which subsequently became two provinces of the Union
of South Africa, now known as the liepublic of South Africa. During the
Dutch period in the Cape-1652 to 1806-an attempt was made to
establishintegrated schools for \irhites and non-[Vhites who had acccpted
the Christian faith,but it soon became evident, however, that integration
was impracticable and that it served to accentuate the differences be-
tween Iirhite and non-lirhite, rather than to elirninate them. The last
remnants of this system were done away with by the Dutch Government
itself in the early yearsof the settlement by the Governor de Mist in
1685. Then, after 1806, under British rule, the authorities tried to unite
White and non-White into a single community, with a cornmon language,
comrnon religion, common culture. hiixed schools were considered to be
the most powerful agent inthis regard, but the attempt again failed and
the scheme actually had the opposite effect.
Then, there was another experirnent towardr integration in the Pro-
vince of Natal in the nineteenth century. With the British annexntion
of Natal in 1843, the purpoçe becarne again to westernize the Natives WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 257
wholived inthat area, who were known as the Zulus, iind to integrate them
iiito White community schools, which were then declared open to all.
The experiinent \vas also a failure.
Then, Mr. President, the British South Alrica period-a short period
of ten years only, from 1900 to 1910. The few remaining rnixed schools,
which were mainly schools for Coloureds and {Vhites in the Cape also
disappeared gradualiy. Certain private schools, whicb were theoretically
stil1 open Io White and non-LVhitc failed to harmonize practice with
theory, and in 1910, when the Union oi South Africa was founded, a
policy of separate schools for the different population groups was adopted.
hlr. President, in South West Africa there havc never beeri integrated
schools for Whites and non-iVhites, and no attempt was made to institute
a joint systi:m of education thcre when the Nandate was granted to South
Alrica.
31r.RAME:Dr. Van Zyl, would you briefly describe the system of
Bantu education that existed in South Africa before the passing of the
Bantu Education Act in 19537
Mr. VANZYL: Rlr. President, as in many other parts of the world,
the firstBantu schools in South Africa came into esistence as a result.of
rnissionary activity, For the purposes of evaiigelization, the missionaries
had to teach the Uantu to read and write and, accordingly, had to esta-
blish and rnaintain schools. The first 3Iission School forBantu was
established almost 200 years ago in 1789.So, a system of mission schools
was founded and for manyyears the burden of so-cnlled Nativeeducation
was borne entirely by rnissionary societiesItwas their pridebut, ulti-
mately, the burtlcn became so heavy that thcy could not carrp on without
State aid. liinancial support from the State was first introduced i1854
in the Cape Province, and was progreçsively increased, until bÿ 1925,
virtualIy al1espenses were borne by the State. Bccause of this, the State
liad to exercise some form of control over these fully subsidized school~.
Then, for the purposes of local administration, the State-aided schools
came under the various missionary societies. The administration of
iunds and professional control was critrusted to the four provinces of
the Union, each acting quite independently of the other. Some form.of
co-ordination was ensured by the establisliment of a so-called Natrve
Education -4dviso~y Board for the Union.
Then, bIr. President, the main contribution of the missions to Bantu
education \Vas their pioneeririg work during the difficult years of its
inception. The inissionaries studied the Bnntu Ianguages and developed
them into written languages. They alço transIated the Biblc into various
South African languages. As may be expected, religious education enjoyed
pride of place in the mission scliools. Education was not-thisis another
point which I should make-an integral part of a general plan for the
dcvelopment of the Bantu, and the central Crovernment, as I have
pointed out, haclno sharc in this service.
hlr.RARIE: Dr. Van Zyl,the then exiçtiiig systcm was altered i1953:
isthat right?
Mr. VANZYL: That is right, Alr. President.
Mr. RABIE: Could you briefly say why thnt was done?
31r V.ANZYL: AIr.President, because itwaçfelt tliat there were certain
definite shortcomings in the svçtem that esisted prior to1953.
Mr. RABIE :Would yau briefly çaywhat those were, or were considered
to be?258 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. President, a serious defect in the old system was the '
divided control of Native education, to which 1 have already referred.
The missionary approach differed from church to church, and the result
was that confusion was created inthe mindç of many Bantu Christians,
who were not al1adherents of the same church. Further, as1 have already
indicated, each of the four provincial authoritieshad theolvn policies in
regard to the administration of the subsidies to mission schoolç and in
connection with the control of professional work.
That should perhaps be considered as the main defect of that system,
but the system also did not contribute adequately to Bantu communitp
development, 1 mean to the development of self-reliant, self-respecting
Bantu communities, xvhich could be further developed to the full in al1
spheres.
Further, Bantu schooIs were managed by missionary superintendents,
and inçpected by departmental officialç. The resuIt was that parent com-
munities had no share in the management of these schools and accor-
dingly showed little intereçt.They did not regard the schools astheir own
institutions. They were foreign institutions, to which they had to send
their children for the sake of an education which they thernçelves did not
fully understand.
Then, 3Ir. President, therewas also the uncertainty as to the future
and development of Bantu culture. In this respect there were two
schools of thought. Firstlp,those who believed that Bantu culture was
inferior and that it should gradually disappear. Secondly, those who
believed that the tradional Bantu culture, including the various Bantu
languages, could develop into, or could serve as a basis for, a modern
culture fully able to satisfy theneeds of a modern world. While this
uncertainty in connection with Bantu culture remained, there was little
hope for the schools to play an effective part in the development of Bantu
culture.
Mr. RABIE : What was done in an effort to bring about an improvement
in the old systern?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Mr. President, the usual thing was done: a commission
of inquiry waç appointed, the 50-called Eiselen Commission,which was
appointed in 1949. This Commission made a thorough study of al1matters
concerning Native education, and consulted alarge number of interested
perçons and bodies in an atternpt to find satisfactory solutions for the
problerns which they were called upon to solve.
The Commission also conçulted Bantu individuals as well as organi-
zations.
Mr. RABIE: NOW,COUI~ YOU briefly say what the basic recornmen-
dations of this Commission were?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Mr. President, I should firsof al1try to indicate what
the all-embracing finding of the Commission was, and this was that
education for the Natives should be CO-ordinated with a definite and
carefulIy pIanned policy for the development of Bantu society. That is
what 1 would cal1 the all-embracing finding of this Commission.
Then in order to achieve this, further recommendations were made
which were çubstantially as follows: to secure efficient and CO-ordinated
planning, designed to develop sound social institutions, educatioshould
corne under the central Government and be taken away from the pro-
vincial authorities to whichI have referred earlier on.
Secondly,increased emphasis was to be placed on the education of the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 259
masses, so as to enable them taCO-operatein tht: evolution of new social
patterns.
Further, that schools should be linked as closely as possible with
existingBantu social institutions; and further,that active steps should
be taken to produce literature of a functional value in the Bantu lan-
guages.
And it was also recommended, Mr. President, that the mother tongue
should be i~sedas the medium of instruction for at least the duration of
the primary school course. Further, that Bantu parents should, as far as
practicable, have a share in the control and life of the schools.Itwas
argued tha.t parents and schools should be cornplernentary and they
should not be competitors in the field of education. Further, that Bantu
personnel should be employed to the ut~nost. Also, that schools should
provide fora maximum developrnent of the Bantu individual, mentally,
morally and spiritually.
And these recommendations, Mr. President, were accepted by the
Government, and the Bantu Education Act was passed in 1953, and the
principles which1 have outIined were implemented in practice.
Mr. RABIE :r. Van Zyl, would you tellthe Court what the reaction of
the public was, and of the Bantu in particulai., to the new education
system?
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. President, for reasons of their own, certain indivi-
duals went out of their way to criticize and to belittle the new system.
These critics received considerable publicity. The matter was dragged
into politics and various personç and bodies, who knew little ornothing
of the systcm, attacked it even before it had an opportunity of proving
itself. The result was that many Bantu at first regarded the new system
with suspicion and were made to believe that their children would be
given an inferior education. But after some tirne it became clear that there
was no reason foralarm, and now that the aims arebetter understood by
all, and the achievements are known, the atmosphere has clianged and
the system is showing itself to be an enormous success.
Rlr.RABIE:Dr. Van Zyl, what tvould you say or what do you regard
as the main advantages of the present systern?
Mr. VANZYL: Well, here again, Mr. President, there is an all-embracing
advantage, and 1 should start by saying that an educational organi-
zation whic:hthe Baritu can cal1 their own is being establishedfor them.
Since the passing of the Bantu Education Act iii 1953 the Bantu have
been given an active share in the education of their children.
Community schools, managed by all Bantu school cornmittees and
school boards, have been established, and some 50,000 Bantu parents
are serving on these bodies,,and are being trained in the rudiments of
self-government.
The ultirnate aim is to enable Bantu groups to assume full responsi-
bility for their own educational service, as is aIready the position in the
Transkei tcida.
The scheme has also led to increased interest in education on the part
of Bantu parents, who in turn encourage their children to go to school
and, what is perhaps more important, to remain there until they have
acquired literacy or even more advanced education. There was a time
prior to this new systemwhen the parents did not care; if childwanted
to go to scl~oolhe could have gone of his own free will, and if he felt like
Ieaving the school, because he was bored, or for some ather reason of his260 SOUTH WEST APRICA
own, the parents did not mind and just allowed him to leave the schooI.
Now that the schools have become part and parce1 of the Bantu com-
munity, and now that the parents have a sharein their management and
take an active interest in what is going on, they urge their children to go
to school, and they also, should 1 Say, compel them to remain there for
a sufficiently long time to acquire literacy, orwhatever education they
are aiming at.
The new system has brought about a phenomenal increase in the
enrolment during the past ten years. The number of pupils has doubled
during this period and grows at the rate of ~oo,ooo per year. Of al1
children in the age group 7 to 14, about 80 per cent. are at present
attending school, which I should Say, Mr. President, is a very high
percentage. And in 1964-unfortunately these are the latest figures I
have at my disposal-the enrolment figure was, in roundfigures,
1,84o,ooo, nearing the 2 million mark, as against 870,000 in 1953.
The number of schools has increased by over 3,000 during the same
period, and during the past three years new schools have been registered
at the rate of a schoola day. The total number of schools has grown from
5,602 in 1953 to 8,672 in 1964. The expansion is still going on and it has
become a real problem to cope with the demand.
These schools are of various kinds. There are the ordinary schools,
to which I have referred; and then there are 26 technical and vocational
schools, offering courses to boys and girls; there are still 43 teacher
training schools, training teachers at secondary level, after the junior
certificate examination; and in 1964 there were 4,186 students being
trained as teachers-2,000 of them took the examination at the end of
the course, and some 1,630 passed.
The system, Mr. President, also creates extensive opportunities of
employment to Bantu as teachers and in other related posts. The number
of teachers has grown from 21,150 in 1963 to 32,300 in 1964; and for the
purposes of these figures f still include the Transkei because the figures
were taken together for Our statistics. There is still a shortage of certain
types of teacher, especially in secondary schools, and at present the
Department of Bantu Education still employs some 500 White teachers,
but this number, 500, comprises only 1.2 per cent. of the total teaching
staff.
Bantu teachers are appointed to the highest posts of principal, in-
spectors and assistant inspectors of schools. There are as many principals
of schools as there are schools, and perhaps we should note that a prin-
cipal gets, in addition to his basic salary, an allowance, a principril's
allowance, for this added responsibility. There are at present 55 Bantu
inspectors of schools and 170 assistant inspectors. Perhaps 1 should
point out that until recently these officials were called sub-inspectors and
supervisors of schools respectively. The new terminology, however, is as
1 have indicated. 1am given to understand, that the poçt of sub-inspector
and supervisor of schools has also been introduced in the Department of
South JVest Africa.
Administrative functions are also gradually being handed over to the
Bantu. Every school board has a secretary, and 470 boards in the
Republic have full-time paid secretaries. Altogether 502 boards employ
z0,ooo teachers, that is 73 per cent. of al1the teachers, and in this case
the Transkei is excluded.
In an integrated educational system, Mr. President, progress by the WITNESSES AND EXPEIITS 261
Bantu in these respects would have been hampered by competition from
more expesienced and more advanced groups. Then, separate schools
stimulate the development of the Bantu Ianguages concerned, and the
production of school books in these languages. They also provide the
stimulus in other respects of culture, such as literature, folk-songs, etc.
Then, hfr. President,1must add that the separate school system makes
it possibIe to adapt educational facilitieto the background, need, and
circurnstan~:es oa particular group. In this connection, 1may mention
thefollowirig factors, which corne intoplay.
Firstly, certain educational principles relating to mother-tongue in-
struction, the provision ofspecialized class-books, the application of the
principle of proceeding from the known tothe unknown, the preservation
of particular cultural institutionsthe adaptation of syllabuses, etc,
Secondly, technical and vocational training are offered to meet par-
ticular neecls.
ThirdIy, provision of teachers and facilities and the expenditure
connected theremrith.
Mr. RABIE:NOW,Dr. Van Zyl, you have referred toinstruction through
the medium of the motker-tongue as an advantage of the system of having
separate schools. Could you explain briefly why you regard such instruc-
tion as an advantage in education?
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. Presidrnt, there are many reasons why mather-
tongue instruction is of vital importance and I would like to mention
just a few of these reasons. My own experience ofBantu schools in South
Africa, as a teacher, as principal, and also as inapector of these schools,
has convinced me that mother-tongue instruction is the best method,
especially in the primary school. It is, in fact, a generally accepted
educational principle that the mother-tongue is the best medium of
teaching alid 1 know of no educationist of standing that denies that
principle. The use of the mother-tongue as a niedium has vanous ad-
vantages. 1 may point out that it haç been stated in United Nations
publications that "experts accept as axiomatic, on psychological, socio-
logical and educational grounds, that the best medium of teaching a
child is his mother-tongue". 1 have quoted from a publication by Unesco
and 1have been told that this passage and others, which 1 hope to quote,
havealready appreared in the Respondent's pleadings.
1 may also point out that Unesco experts have recommended that
every effort should be made to provide education in the mother-tongue
to aslate a stage of education as possible1 shoulii like to refer trecent
articleby an African professor of the University of Ghana, K. E. Darkwa,
entitled Education for CultzcraE Integrity,the Ghanian Case. Itwaç pub-
lished in 1L"ewEra, Volume 46, No. 3, of March 1965. In his concluding
remarkç, the author wrote:
"What then should be the position of the vernacular inour educa-
tional system? The answer is simple, vernacular must be given top
priority. One of my own deficiencies in lire is the Iack of abiIity to
express myself sufficiently in either English or my vernacular."
Mr. RABIE:Dr. Van Zyl, before you proceed, you have a copy of the
article there?
Mr. VAN ZYL:1 have, Sir.
Mr. RABIE: You wiIl hand itin? 262 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. VANZYL: Yes. Shall 1 hand it in, now, Mr. President?
TliePRESIDENT A re you tendering the articlein evidenceMr. Rabie?
Mr. RABIE: Yes, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT Very well then.
Mr. RABIE: We have notified,1 may Say, the Applicants of the article
and it will be handed in.
The PRESIDENT A:ny objection, Mr. Gross?
Mr. GROSS : o, Sir.
Mr. RABIE :Will you proceed, Dr. Van Zyl?
Mr. VANZYL: A~so,Mr. President, expertshave pointed out, and we in
South Africa ourselves have experienced, that the vernacular is of the
utmost importance in bridging the gap between home and school. Our
experience is also that if a child is taught in his mother-tongue his
parents tend to display a greater interest in his education. This is to be
understood. The use of the mother-tongue is the best way to ençure
that pupils understand what the teacher tries to teach them and it helps
to develop their reasoning powers, and their initiativeIt also promotes
original thinking.
Mr. President, we have expenenced that pupils who are taught
through the medium oftheir own language perform better than pupils
who are taught through a foreign medium. Our experience has been
confirmed by tests made elsewhere. In this regard 1 may refer to ex-
periments camed out by Unesco experts in the Philippines. Those
experiments showed that vernacular-medium pupils performed better
than foreign-medium pupils in various non-language subjects. These
experiments also showed, and it haç also been Our experience in South
Africa, that vernacular-medium pupils are emotionally more stable and
develop more confidence than others, and, furtl-iermore, that they show
a greater ability to organize and to express their thoughts, that their
social education is better, and that they attend school more regularly.
Mr. RABIE: Would you indicate where the results of the experiments
you refer to are recorded, Dr. Van Zyl?
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. President, they are recorded in Unesco publications
on the experiments carried out in the Philippines-publishedin Unesco,
Apnl-May 1958, Volume X, Nos. 4-5,pages 43 and 44.
Mr. President,Imay Say also that the mother-tongue medium has the
added advantage thatit stimulates the development of the language and
the literature of that particular population group. It also stimulates
the development of a culture generally, because,inthe name article by
Professor Darkwa that 1 have referred to before, the view is expressed,
and I agree with him, "that language is the foundation of society and
the root of culture. This is ~hy every society must preserve its language
ifit does not want its foundations to be destroyed."
Mr.RABIE: Dr. Van Zyl, can you indicate whether school examination
results in South Africa have provided any evidence of the efficacy or
othenvise of mother-tongue instruction inBantu schools?
Mr. VANSYL:Mr. President, we have had some very interestingex-
periences in this connection in the Republic of South Africa anIwould
like todeal with this question in two parts: firstly, with examination
results at the end of the primary school course-that is at the standard
six level-because, in the primary school course up to standard six the
actual medium in our country is the mother-tongue, and, for the junior
certificate course as well as the matriculation course. the medium is a WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 263
different laiiguage-one of the officia1languages. So there is a difference.
Secondly, then, 1 would like to deal with the junior certificate and the
matriculation examinations. Now, we have little doubt that the use of
mother-tongue as a medium has contributed greatly to better results in
the standard six examination.
Perhaps 1should explain, Nr, President, that, prior to the New Deal
for Rantu Education inthe Republic of South Africa, mother-tongue was
an accepted policy and was carried out up to the standard two level in
the primary school. At the standard three level-that isactually in the
fourth school year-English or Afrikaans was introduced as a medium
of instruction. But the Bantu Education Act required that mother-
tonguc instruction should carry on from the fourth year up to the sixth
standard. Now, in 1958the standard six examination was conducted in
the mother-tongue for the first time. The percentage of.passes in this
examination rose from 68 in 1958to 79 in 1960 and as mother-tongue
medium became well established in the primary schoolthe percentage rose
to84 in 1964.
In junior certificate examinations there have alsobeen better perfor-
mances in recent years. The reasons for this improvement, 1must admit,
cannot precisely be determined or ascrihed exclusiveiy to mother-
tongue instruction for standards of teaching are steadily improving.
We have evidence, however, that students who started on secondary
courses in recent years had a better grasp of subjects learned during the
primary scfioolcourse, and that they were, for that reasonable to make
faster progiess.
ficate examination prior to mother-tongue medium in the primarynior certi-
schools,the percentage of passes wasin the neightiourhood of 55-In 1962
this percentage rose to 57 and two years later, after mother-tongue
medium became well established again, in the primary school the per-
centage rose to 74. 1 should point out, Mr. President, that, although
this examination is conducted by the Department of Bantu Education
itself, it is a public examination organized in the samway as any other
public examination. External examiners are appointed. The majority of
examiners for this junior certificate examination do not belong to our
Department. They are taken from other education departments. Also,
the moderators are taken from other education departments, so there
is no question ofthinking that there was a possibility of the lowering of
standards. Students who wrote the matriculation cxamination in 1960
and 1961 liad their primary school training through the medium of
English and the percentage passes in those years were exceedingly poor,
because there were also other disturbing factors.
But 1960 was again a more or less normal year and then, when candi-
dates who liad their prirnary training partly through the medium of the
mother tongue wrote the examination, the percentage of passes rose
from 26 to 40. In 1963 and 1964 the results were even more revealing.
Here again 1want to point out that the candidates who wrote the matn-
culation examination, which is an entirely extemal examination, had
their whole primary school course through the medium of the mother
tongue and in these years these candidates did so well that the percen-
tagm rose from, as 1 have said, 40 the previous year t~ 61 in 1963and
will be everi better.e reason to believe that tho results in coming years264 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Rlr.KABIE :OW,Dr. Van ZyI, you have referred tothe mother-tongue
in the primary and secondary schools. ilrould you briefly indicate what the
position is in regard to the teaching of the official languages, English
and Afrikaans?
Air.VANZYL: Xr. President, when mother-tongue instruction was
first introduced in the Republic of South Africa people were given to
understand by critics that the teaclling of English and Afrikaans as
subjects had corne to an end and thnt Bantu children were not given the
opportunity of acquiring a knowledge of these languages, and more
particularly English, in our Bantu schools. But the Bantu Education
Department fuHy realizes the importance of teaching Bantu children
English and Afrikaans and provision is made for the teaching of these
subjects from a very early stage. A Bantu cliild who cornes to school
starts his second language, his first Iünguage being his mother tongue,
in sub-standard A, that is, the first year of the primary school, and he
starts the second officia1language in the same year, but six months later.
These subjects are taught right through until the end of the secondary
school course.
The position is therefore, Air. President, that a Bantu pupil studies
English and Afrikaans as second languages in the same way as an Afri-
kaans pupil, for instance, would study English.
hir. RABIE:NOW,Dr. Van Zyl, you referred earlier to facilities for
tcchnicaI and vocational training in South Africa which have regard to
particular needs of the Rantu people. Would you briefly describe what
these facilitieare?
3lr. VAN ZYL: fiIr. President, in view of the special circumstances
pertaining to the Bantu people at present, it is considered best to provide
forma1 training in certain directions at dcpartrnental institutions.The
requirements for admission to such scliools is standard 6, that is, the
end of the primary school course and afterthe t:ighth year of schooling.
There are no such trade schools for Europeans and provision is made for
them in a different way.
Ican give some particulars: there are five technical schools which offer
courses in general mechanics, building construction, electricity, wood-
work and draughtsrnanship. There are II vocational schools for boys.
By "vocational schools", air. President, 1 actually mean trade schools,
where the boys are enabled to qualify as artisans, tradesmen. These
schools offer courses in building, electrical wiring, tailoring, upholstery,
plumbing, motor mechanics, carpentry, baking, radio mechanics, courses
for radiotricians and brick-making, etc. There areten vocational schools
for girls offering courses in subjects such as home management, dress-
making, hairdressing and beauty culture, baking, millinery, etc.
hlr.RABIE: Dr. Van Zyl, you also stated earlier that separate school
systems have a bearing on the provision of facilities and teachers and
the cost thereof. iVould you briefly Say what you had in mind when you
said this?
hlr. VANZYL: This question, orsimilar questions are often asked and
my answer to this question is of more than ordinary significance. 1 do
hope that 1shall manage to make a very important point clear. It is the
policy to build up Rantu commuiiities and to help them to participate in
this process.To achieve thjs purpose it isessential to teach the masses
and to make schooling available to as many pupils as possible. Itisa fact
that these masses are, both in South Africa and in South West Africa, WITNESSES AHD EXI'ERTS 265
at a lower level of development than tlie otgroupsand that they main-
tain a lower standard of living.
Now, Mr. President, since this is soUantu teachers areemployed at a
lower salary than in the case of the other grouris, salaries which bear a
reasonable relationship tothe incomes of other members of their group.
For the same reason, buildingsand other equipnient generally neednot,
and are not expected by the people to be exactly the same as in the case
of the othcr groups. Imay point out in this regard that it is also our
policy to em loy Bantu workmen for the erection and maintenance of
buildings ans for the manufacure of furniture. This, too, reduces costs
and helps t:omake it possible to provide services on a \vider basis than
would otherwiçe have been possible.
With the advanccment of the Bantu people, economicalIy aiid other-
wise, the considerations 1 have mentioned will necessarily be aifected
and a basis for financial proviswillnaturally have to be adjusted. 'l'he
position iç not a static one. Furthermore, 1 woiild like to emphasize in
regard also to the present tirne that there isno question of providing
inferior facilities. The savings are effected in respects which do not affect
the quality of the education provided. Where facilities have a necessarp
bearing on the quality of instruction, for instance, in the technical and
vocational schools 1 have mentioned, the general policy is to make thern
at least as good as similar institutions or facilities for the other groups.
On the whole, the savings that could be effecteclhav1am sure, enabled
us to reacfi the masses much more extensively than would have been
feasible if the cost per unit had been as high as it:is for JVhite etlucation.
The taking over of the educational system by the Bantu peoples
themselves 011 their way to independcnce and self-determination is
greatly facilitatedinthe sense that they would not have to carry from
the outset an expensive educational systern witli, for instance, teachers
paid on a scale which they would be unable to maintain. There is also,
1 may point out, to my knowledge no resentment at this differentiation.
Of course, teachers, IVhites and non-Wliites, :ire for ever asking for
higher salaries but there is no objection to differentiation as such. We
are in this respect proceeding on much the same lines asindependent
African States north ofus.
Mr. President, the differentiation as cornparecl with ilrl'hiteeducation
and with salariespaid tobrhite teachers operates in a practicalway tothe
advantage of the Rantu people.
Mr. RABIE :Dr. Van Zyl, in1958,the Soutli U7estAfrica Administration
appointed Ecommission of enquiry iiito Native education in South West
Africa of which commission you were the chairman. Now could you Say
briefly what were the main reasons for the appointment of that commis-
sion?
Mr. VASZYL: Rlr. President, the reasons were substantiallythe fol-
loiving: a general survey of al1 educational services in the Territory was
carried out during theyears1957 and 195s .shoiild point out that during
1957 there was another commission of enquiry to enquire into the whole
question of educntion of South West Africa and that commission had to
deal with al1 the different population groups, but before it had come
to the end of its taçk it decided that jt could not do the specialized work
required for 13antu education. So, they çompleted their work only in
regard to White education and the administration appointed another
commission in 1958 to deal with the non-White groups. Of course, the266 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
commission was so composed that there were experts also in the field of
Coloured education. It was felt at the time that the tirne had arrived to
assess the position which obtsinedthen with a view to bringing about
improvement where necessary. The commission was asked to determine
existing çhortcomings and to formulate an effectivesystem for the Native
comrnunities of South West Africa. It was also asked to ascertain to
what extent Bantü education in the Union of South Africa could serve
as a basis for Native education in South West Africa.
Mr. KABIE : OW,what in broad outline were the recommendations of
your commission ?
hlr.VAN ZYL: Mr. President, therewas awide range of recommenda-
tions and they included, inter alin, that a syste~n of cornmunity schools
with Native governing bodies be introduced; that aparate section ofOthe
South West African Education Department be established in order to
specialize in the needs of Native educationalso, that the development
of the Native languages should be cared for by establishing a language
bureau for thc production of literature and more particularly the pro-
duction of school books. We also recommended the progressive intro-
duction of mother-t ongue instruction in the primary schools. The
principle of mother-tongue instruction was not a new one in South
N'est Africa but application and practice was a different matter. We
also further recommended that the South Afncan syllabuseç and exami-
nations be introduced in South \Vest Africa so that teaching aids, and in
particulsr graded class books, which were available in South Africa,
could be used; certain prirnary school syllabuses were to be adapted to
local circumstanceç.
hlrRABIE :Did your commission consult the Nativegroups and leaders
in Native communities in an effort to find a suitable system for the Terri-
tory and, if so, what was the general attitude towards the proposed
changes?
Mr. VANZYL:MF. President, the consultation with the various Native
comrnunity leaders, 1 would siy, was the most interesting part.of Our
task and representatives of ailsections of the Native population were
consulted and prolonged discussions, which1 may say we enjoyed, some-
times lasted two dilys in one place. The commission explained the dif-
ferent possibilities to these leaders-awere in favour of the proposed
school cornmittees and school boards on which parents could serve and
thereby have a share in the management of their schools. The majority
of these people, whom we have consulted, favouredatype of government
school in preference to mission schools and indicated that thep were
prepared to conçider a community school, as we tried to explain to them,
as a kind of government school foral1practical purposesThe only indi-
cation, Mr. President, of doubt or reluctance to CO-operatein the launch-
ing of anew system came from the Hereros, and to a lesser extent from
some Namas. The Hereros, who number about 35,000, are known to
oppose most government schemes.
Mr. RABIE T:Owhat extcnt have the recommendations of your com-
mission been irnplemented-1 refer only to the few you have mentioned?
hlr.VAN ZYL: Mr. President, as neither 1nor my department are
officially connected with Native education in South West Africa, the
information at my disposa1 was gained through a persona1 interest that
1 take in the Territory and in education generally.To the beçt of my
knowledge the following steps have been taken: community schools IVITNESÇES AND EXPERTS 267
involving !;ch001committees and school boards have been introduced
andthe process is far advanced in the northern territones, where parent
cornmunities have responded well to the new system, but because of
various problems the introduction of this systern of community schoob
in the southern area has been delayed. Ba~itu education syllabuses,
pertaining to the Department of Bantu Educatioii in the Republic of
South Africa, have been introduced on the following basis: syllabuses
for the primary schools have been adapted to suit local conditions and
examinations are conducted independentlyby the South West Africa De-
partment of Education at the standard six level; junior certificate syiia-
buses have been introduced unchanged and candidates write the Bantu
education examinations. This, Mr. President, is important because the
junior certificate syllabuses are so deçigned that they link up with the
syllabuses of the Joint Matriculation Board and the Department of Edu-
cation, Arts and Science because our junior certificate candidates are des-
tined to write the examination conducted by those bodies; the Bantu
Education Department's courses for teacher training have also been
taken over; the wide range of graded class books available in the Repub-
Iic are also used in South West Africa as far as possible; a Bantu lan-
page bureau has been set up, as we recommended, and a separate section
for Bantu education with its own chief inspector and inspectorate has
been established in the existing education department.
Mr. RABIE: NOW, Dr. Van Zyl, do you know whether the Odendaal
Commission also made recommendations in regard to the education of
the Native people in South West Africa?
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. President, yes. First of alas Ihave said before, the
Commission recommended that Native education in South West Afnca
be transferred to the Department of Bantu Education in the Republic
of South Africa. Secondly, 1 wish to mention that certain recornmen-
dations made by the Commission show a striking resemblance to the
recommenclations made by the 1958 Commission. So, for exarnple, the
Commission approved of the principle of community schools, partly
instituted in South West Africa as a result of the 1958recommendations.
It also approved of the principle of mother-tongue instruction and the
development of 13antu languages. It found that there was a poor demand
for vocational courses offered for Native pupilsatthe Augustineum, but,
nevertheless, thought that the general development programme which
it proposed for the Native groups would crcate a need for vocational
training arid for facilities for training inagriculture and animal hus- '
bandry. It accordingly alsorecommended the extension of facilities at the
Augustineum and the establishment of a training centre inOvamboland. ,
The Odendaal Commission also stressed the iniportance of commercial
and technical junior certificate courses and recommended that such
courses be instituted. These courses already exist in the Republic of
South Africa.
Mr. RABIE: Dr. Van Zyl, finally, what, in yoiir opinion, would be the
results if an attempt were made to institute a system of joint schooling
in the Territory of South West Africa?
Mr. v.4~ ZYL: Mr. President, 1 do not think that there is any hope of
succesç. The differences among the population groups in background,
language, tradition and culture are so big that the people do not mix
socially,with the result that integrated schools are almost inconceiyabl:.
From what. 1 know of the people, there cannot be peaceful integration in268 SOUTH WEST AFRIC.4
the field of education andany attempt to enforce integration will cause
the collapse of the educational services. Further, integration will bring
friction and enmity among the pupils. In other countries with hetero-
geneous populations, attempts at integration have brought about serious
clashes between the racial groups and in sorne instances have even led to
violence and this, Kir. President, isin my opinion, exactly what will
happen in South West Africa.
From an educational point of view, a systemof joint education would,
if itould be introduced, mean the end of some of the advantages I have
previously rnentioned. It woutd be impossible to apply sound educational
princiyles which can be applied under the present circumstances. So,
for instance, instruction through medium of the mothcr tongue would
be out of the question for at least one group and it would be impossible
to do full justice to the traditions and culturof al1 the groups. If the
officia1languagcs, English and Afrikaans, were tobe the sole media the
Bantu groups will suffer as a result.
Mr. President, asI see it, al1 such unfortunate results caii be avoided
by having a system of separate education as at present and by providing
proper Cacilities for tlie different groups. As far as 1 know, nobody in
Sout1.iWest Africa has ever requested or propagated integrated schools
and 1make bold to say that everybody realizes that such a policy would
be impossible.
Mr. RABIE: Mr. President, that concludes the questions 1mish to put
to the witness.
The PKESIDENT V:ery well, bIr. Rabie. hlr. Gross?
hlr.GROSS :r. Van Zyl, you will understand, Sir, thatI am cross-
examining you on the basis of notes hastily prepared while you were
testifyingand, therefore, i1 do by chance misquote you or in any other
way not correctly rcflect your testimony, would you please, for the benefit
of the Court, correct me at once. It will be unwitting.
Iunderstand, Sir, that you testified that fro1946 to1957 OU lvere
an Inspector in the Department of Bantu Education. 1s that correct,
Sir?
hlr.VAN ZYL: Yes. >Ir. President, perhaps 1 should give a little more
exylanation. 1 was in the field, a1 cal1it, for seven of those ninc years
and for the lasttwo years of my positionas Inspector of Schools 1 was
called to the new head office for Bantu education to assist in the plan-
ning of the new Department.
Mr. GROSS T:hank you. Now, as you testified, 1belicve your function
was to inspect institutions and to give guidance to teachers. 1s that
substantially correct?
Mr. VANLYI.: Thnt is right, Mr.President.
Mr. CROSS U:id you, in the course of that period and in that function,
visitSouth IVcst Africa in the performance of your duties?
Mr. VANZYI.:NO, Mr. President.
hlr.G~oss: This was entirely, then, in South Africa itself, Sir?
hIr.VANZYL: Yes.
Mr. G~oss: The function of your Department of Bantu Education,
perhaps this will emerge more clearly from your testimony when 1 have
had an opportunity to read the verbatim record-was it your testimony,
Sir, that the Departrnent of Bantu Education, of which you were
Deputy-Secretary, has jurisdiction over the Bantu education systein of
South IVest Africa? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS ~~9
Mr. VANZYL: NO,Mr. President.
Mr. GROSS: Ifit does not involve too mucli repetition, since it is already
in the record, would you clarify theextent to dich your Department
has any responsibility with respect to South West Africa, if any?
Mr. VAKZYL: Mr. President, 1 should Say that the responsibility of
my Depar1:ment would only be indirect becaust:, as 1 have indicated in
my main evidence, certain syllabuses which are applicable in theRe-
public of South West Africa have been introduced in South West Africa
as, for instance, for the junior certificate course and for theteacher-
training course. So South West African pupils have to follou~ those
courses and ultimately they have to wite the examinations conducted
by my Department.
hlr. GKOSS:Does your Department deterniinc the nature of the
examinations and the sylIabuses to be administered and applied in
South West Africa?
hfr. VAN ZYL: In those particular cases, ye., Mr. President, for the
junior certificate course and the tcacher-trainingcourses, also forvo-
cational training,1 should not omit that. But my Department has an
Examination Board consisting of senior officialsand specialists in various
fields and,on this examination board South West Africa also has repre-
sentation.
Mr. GROSS:Let us take as a hypothetical exarnple, Sir, that a teacher
or school officiainSouth West Africa considers that changes should be
made in tlie curriculum or syllabus. ilihat woiild be the procedurby
which such a recommendation would be received ariddisposed of by the
governmental agencies concerned?
hlr.VAN ZYL: The normal way, MT. President, is that any teacher in
the Department who feels that a change should be effected-a change
of any kind-if he is an assistant teacherhe would take the matter to
his principal, discusitwith him and, if they agree, the principawould
go forward with the proposal, give it to the inspecter, who will, in turn,
take it to the heads of the Department, and the Department will ulti-
mateIy refer the matter to the Examinations Board which I have
ment ioned.
Mr. GROSS : lie Department being your Department?
Alr. VAN ZYL: No-the Department being the South West African
Education Department.
Mr. G~oss: And is the South \Vcst African Education Department in
any way aifiliated with your Department ofBaritu Education?
bIr.VAN ZYL: Only in the sense, Mr. President, that thDepartment
has representation on Our Examinations Board.
Mr. G~oss: On your Examinations Board?
&Ir.v.4~ ZYL: On Our Examinations Board, yes.
Mr. GROSS: Does the Department for South West Africa have full
authority 1.0make changes in curriculum or s~~llabuseson its own au-
thority, or does it have to refer such changes for approval to some higher
agency or some different agency?
&Ir.VANZYL:The South IVeçt African Education Department is free
to make ïvhatever changes it chooses in the lower primary course and
the higher primary school course, As it is, they only use the Republican
syllabuses as a basis and they adapt these to local conditions and nobody
can stop them from even changing these syllabi*ses radically, but when
they corne tothe junior certificate course they have to act more carefully*7O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
becauçe, as 1 pointed out thisrnorning, the junior certificate courses are
so designed that they link up with the rnatriculation courses which
these Bantu pupils are called upon to take after the junior certificate
course.
alr. GROSS: When you use the phrase "act more carefully", would
you elaborate that in terms of the discretion, if anwhich tliey have to
rnake alterations on their own authority?
Mr. VANLYL: Well, hlr. President, they will rlot be able to introduce
changes on their own without notifying anybody. Then they will have
to foilolv the procedure which 1 have tried to explain and if there isa
suggestion for a change or for the introduction of another subject, as
was the case with the subject of German, they bring that through their
representative to the Republican Examinations Board and ask for its
CO-operation in effecting the changethat they have inmind.
hfr. GROSS: \.\'here does the final authority for decision lie?
Nr. VasZYL:\Wh the Head of the Department for Bantu Education.
hlr.GROSS: In Pretoria?
Xr. VAS ZYL: In Pretoria.
Mr. CROSS: Is that same procedure applied to any other aspects of the
function of the education system in South West Africa?
Mr. VANZYL:NO, Mr. President, itconcerns only certain courses, as
1 have said before-the junior certificate course, the teachers' training
course and also the courses for vocational training.
Nr. G~oss: Clrould the necessity of approval by the Department of
Bantu Education in the Republic apply also to, let us say, changes in
the matriculation examination?
hlr.VANZYL: No, Mr. President, the Department of Bantu Education
has no right to bring about any change in the matriculation courses.
There again the Department of Uantu Education has a representative
on what I have referredto as the Joint Alatriculation Board, and should
the Department of Rantu Education feel that the change or extension
of facilities are necessa, that representativemuçt take it to the Joint
hfatriculation Board andask for itsapproval, and then, after discussion,
it willbe formally approved by the Board.
ah. G~oss: So that in the case of matriculation courses or exami-
nations, do 1understand you correctly to testify that the approval othe
Joint Jfatriculation Board in Pretoria would be necessary for changes
in the matriculation examination and course-is that correct?
Mr. VAX ZYL: That is right, hfr. President.
&Ir.G~oss: The department concerned with education in South West
Africa-where is that located?
hlr.VANZYL: In Windhoek, capital of the Territory.
Mr. GROSSA : nd how içit composed-1 mean, what is its composition,
its membersliip, how many?
Blr.v.4~ ZYL: hlr. President, 1would like to know whether Mr. Gross
is referring to the top officials . . .
Mr. GROÇS:I beg your pardon-1 should have asked itdifferently.
The PRESIDENT : hat is the governing body?
blr.G~oss: Thank.you, Sir.I am asking for the picture of the adminis-
trative set-up-how 1sit composed?
3Ir.VAS ZYL:I will trto answer that question. At the head of every-
thing there is the . . .
Mr. GROSÇ:We are talking about South 1Vest Africa? WITNESSES AXD EXPERTS 271
Mr. VAN ZYL: South West Africa. There is the Administrator in
person, who has a Legislative Council with axi Executive Cornmittee,
and they may be considered the ~iolitical authority in that country;
and then there are different departments ...
&Ir.GROSS:May 1interrupt you there, Sir, if you \\d lermit me, just
for the sake of sequence?By whom is the Administrator appointed?
Mr. VAN ZYL:The Administrator is appointed by the Government of
the Republic of South Africa.
Mr. G~oss: By any particular branch or department thereof?
hlr.VAN ZYL: If 1have to ançwer that question, hlr. PresidentIwill
have to guess; I would rathcr not nnswer it,it is notin my particular
field.
Rlr.G~oss: 1am sure the Court would not wish you to guess. Let me
ask you whether the Department of Bantu Education, of which you are
Deputy-Secretary, has any relationship with the Administrator of
South West Africa in an official capacity?
Mr. VANZYL: NO,Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: To whom in South Africa,in the Republic itself, does the
Administrator report, if you know, Sir?
Mr. VAN LYL:1 should say to the Government itself.
Mr. GROSS:There again, would you answer that you are not aware to
which department or agency of the Government he reports?
Mr. VAN ZYL: There again 1 think1 should guess; 1think he reports
to the Prime Ninister's Department.
Alr. GRCISS:TO the Prime Minister directly-but that is simply a
guess.
&Ir.VAN ZYL:1 would not vouch for its correctness.
PiZrG~oss: That is al1right, Sir. Now, with respect to the Legislative
Council(1 believe you described it), how is that constituted, both as to
personnel, membership, and as to mcthod of appointment; take one
question at a time-T am sure the President would wish me to put it,to
you one ata time: first, with respect to the composition of the Legislative
CounciI, how is it composed?
Alr.VAKZYL: It is an elected body.
Mr. G~oss: What is itscomposition-liow many members does it
have? Do you know?
Mr. VAN ZYL: No, 1wouId not know, cuactly. We can check up on the
figures.
Alr.GROÇS: What is the function of the Legislative Council, what are
its responsibilities?
Mr. VANZYL: In connection with 13aiitu educntion-their responsi-
bilitieç?
Mr. GROSS:Yes, what are their responsibilities in that connection,
what do they do?
Alr.VANZYL: Up to now 1 should say that it was their duty define
policy in gi:neral.
Nr. GROSS:Education policy for South West Africa?
ilZrVAN ZYL: For South if'est Africa.
Mr. GROSS:In the Rantu education field?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes.
Mr. G~oss: And they report, presumably, do they, to the Adminis-
trator-is that correct?
&Ir.VAXZYL: 1 should think so.272 SOUTH WEST XFRICA
Air. GROSS:IVho in turn reports to the Prime Minister's office, you
guess,1 take it?
Alr.\;AN ZYL:I guess, yes.
Alr. G~oss: With respect tothe Legislative Council,you Iiavesaid you
do not know the nuniber of inembers cornposing it-is that your testi-
mony?
hlr. VAXZYL: Yes; thcre again, if 1 were to give an answer,it would
be a guess-1 rnay be a few out.
Mr. GROSS: Can you approximate it-roughly how large a body is it-
is it half a dozen, or is it 50-roiigspeaking?
Mr. VANZYL: It would be in the neighbourhood of 40,I should sny.
Alr. G~oss: Of something around 40?
Mr. VAS ZYL: Yes,say betxveen 30 and 40.
Jlr.GROSS :he Court will undcrstand that you have stated tliatyou
do not know the exact number. Of that nurnber, whatever it may be,
how many are non-White?
hlr.Var ZYL:They are al1White.
Jlr. G~oss: Do you have any basis foan opinion, either as witness or
expert, as to whether the fact that they are al1 IVhite is a matter of
policy'
Mr. \'ASZYL: It is not a matter of educational policy.
Mr. G~oss: 1s it a matterofgovernmental policy?
Mr.VAN ZYL: 1 should think so, yes.
Mr. GROSS: Do you know wlio dctermines that policy?
Mr. VAN ZYL:I believethe Government of South Africa determines
the policy.
Mr. GROSS: When you say that it is not a matter of educational
poIicy, do you mean that you see no relationship between the composi-
tion of that Council andthe educationaloliciespursued in the Territory?
hlr. VANZYL: 1 should sap no.
The PRESIDEKT : OUsee no relation.
blr.GROSS: You see no relationship between those two-that was the
sense of your response, that this is not a matter of educational policy?
1 tvill not pursue that lurther1think 1 am confusing the witness; if 1
may withdraw that, Bir. President? IfTith respect to the composition,
again, do you knotv, roughly again approximating, what the types of
persons are ~vho compose the Council with respect to profession or
occupation, generally speaking?
Mr. V.IX ZYL: Mr. President, do 1 understand correctly-does >Ir.
Gross refer to the Legislative Council?
Mr. CROSS: Yes, 1 am still talking about the Legislative Coiincil of
approximately 40 people tliat weare çtill discussingAre there lawyers
on it, are there teachers, are there engineers?
Mr. VAKZYL: 1 really would not be able to Say, hlr. President. '
The PRESIDENT:YOUdon't know?
Air.VANZYL:1 have not gone into details about that qualification.
Mr. GROSS: Just to Save agony on the part of everybody in the Court
room, !irould you state that you do not really have inform t'ion con-
cerning the structure and functioning of the Adminiçtrator's Office and
of the Legislative Council and of the Esecutive Cornmittee-would OU
state that for the record, ço that 1 do not have to ask you detailed
questions about them?
hlr.VAN ZYL: Ihave a general knowledge of what is going on, but the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 273
Court will apprcciate that1 would not be able to give evidence in that
field asan expert.
Mr. GROSS :have asked you, Sir, as a witriess or expert-1 am at-
tempting to Save the Court's time, not to debat:e with you-do you as a
witiiess or expert have knowledge concerning the functioning of the
Office of the Administrator of South West African Education, the
structure and responsibilities of the 1,egislatii.e Council of that Office
and tlie Executive Committec thereof; do you have persona1 knowledge
concerning these rnatters, as witness or as expert?
3Ir. VANZYL:1 have a general knowledge of their dutiesand the way
they funci:ion, yes.
$Ir. GROSS:If 1 ask you questions wliich you consider to be more
specific than you have knowledge of, you will please indicate that by
pour reply. With respect to the Legislative Counci1,may revert tothat
for a moment: what responsibilities does the Legislative Council, if any,
have with respect tothe determination of theextent to which, let us Say,
rnother tongue should be used as nmedium of instruction inthe schools
of South West Africa?
>Ir. VAN ZYL:Up to the present moinent it is for the Legislative
Council, Ishould sny, to determine mhether it should be so, and it is also
the Administration acting on behalf of the Council that a Commission
of Inquiry was appointed, aiid the recommendations were received, and
it was for the Council to decide whether they ~vantcd to implement tliose
recommendations; no other body, so far as 1know, in South \Vest Afnca
woulcl have hacl the authority tochoose.
&Ir.G~ciss: Does itfollow from your response to my question that the
Legislativc Council has final authorittomake that decision?
)Ir. VAN ZYL: 1should Say so, ycs.
>Ir.GRC~S So:uld theybe overruled by the Administrator?
Xlr. VAXZYL:I should Say yes, if he chooses to, but in practiIdo
not think it everhappens.
>Ir. GROÇS: 1 am talking now about the principles of the structure.
CoiiId the Administrator be overruledby the Prime Minister?
AIr. VANZYL: Be overruled by the South African Government, 1
should Say yes, because he is in a suhordinate position.
&Ir.GROSS:So that it would be fair to say th:lt the ultimate authority
for such installation or change of policy, for example nrith respect to
mother-tongue instruction in South IVest Africa, would ultimately be
wiîliin the power of the Rcpuhlic Governnient itself-isthat correct?
Nr. VAN ZYL:1 should say yes.
Mr. Gnoss: 1 suppose that the Execiitive Comrnittee to which you
referredis an Executive Comrnittee of the Legislative Council-is that
correct?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes.
Mr. G~oss: Do you know approximately how many rnembers of the
Executive Committee there are, or is this within the specific area of
which vou are ignorant?
Aïr.VAX ZYL:1 believe there are four member-and the Administrator.
>Ir. G~oss: Four members of the Executive Committee?
hlr.VANLYL: Yes.
hjr. GROSS:Are they al1memberç of the Legislative Council?
Mr. VANZYL: Therc are four elected members, and of course the
Administrator is alço exofici0amember of the Executive Committee. SOUTH WEST AFRICA
274
Afr. G~oss: I see. And are the four members of the Executive Com-
mittee aii members of the Legislative Council, if you know?
hfr.VAN ZYL: They are.
Mr. GROSSI :twould folIow, then, that none of those is non-White,
they are al1 White,1take it?
&Ir.VANZYL: They are al1 White.
Mr. GROSS: Does the Executive Committee, if yoii know, have fuI1
authority to act for the Council?
Mr. VANZYL: 1 should say, in certain respects, but 1 would riot be
able to say exactly what the positionis; 1have never made a carefuI
study of the position.
Mr. GROSS: In other words, when you testify to the point of the basic
principles of the Bantu education system, its application and effects,
you are not including in your expert testimonevidence with respect to
the structure within South \t'est Africby which the systern is given
effect-isthat a fair statement?
Mr. VANZYL:I was aware of the fact thathe administrative authori-
tiesin South West Africa had the authorityto decide andto dcterrnine
policy, but1 never bothered to know exactly how they act in corning to
their decisions.
Nr. GROSS :Vith respect to the testimony you were giving when I
interjectedrny questions regardingthe Administrator and the Legiçla-
tive Council and the Executive Committee,you had, 1think, referred to
those as "political authorityW-didyou use that phrase, or some such
phrase?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes.
Mr. GROSS : ould you clarify that for the Court?
Mr. VANZYL:1 would not like to Say more than that itsibody that
is elected on political lines, 1should Say.
Mr. GROS: 1s the Council elected?
Rlr.VAXZYL: The Council is elected, yes.
Mr. GROSS: Who are the electors of the Council-by whom is the
Council elected7
Mr. VANZYL: By the White rnembers of theTerritory, who qualifas
voters.
Mr. G~oss: Now, these \\'hite memberof the Legislative Council that
administer the Bantu educational affairs are aelected by only \Vhite
members of the Territory-is that correct, Sir?
Mr.VANZYL: Yes, I should SaySO.
Mr. GROSSD : Oyou happen to know, Sir, whether they run foroRce,
are there candidates for electioDo you know, Sir?
hlrVANZYL:1 could not follow that question.
Mr. GROSS 1:s there a date of candidates placed before the White
voters for election to the Legislative Councilyou know, Sir?
Mr.VANZYL:1 am sorry, Mr. President, thefirst wo1dcould iiot get.
The PRESIDEN :T"Slate."
Mr.GROSS :s there a slate of candidates for election to the Legislative
Council placed before the White voters of the Territory?
Mr.VA?; ZYL: 1 would not be ableto answer that question.
Mr. GROSS : ith respect now to your testimony regardinthe struc-
ture,~ould you continue,Sir,if you remember, where you Ieft off-pu
had just referred to the Executive CommitteeNow would jrou continue
from there,Sir. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
275
Mr.VAN ZYL:WeIl, Mr. President 1 shouid corne down to the Depart-
ment itself. There is an Education Department at the head of lvhich is
a Director of Education; he is assisted by a Deputy-Director for al1
services alid by a Chief Inspector for Bantu education and they,turn,
are assistedby an inspectorate-a number of inspectors for White and
Coloured schools on the one hand and a ~lumber of inspectors for Bantu
schools on the other hand. They are further assisted by administrative
officers in the head office and perhapintheir regional offices and then
the systen~ consists further o316 schools throughout the Territory of
which the rnajority arein theiiorthern territories and that is about the
whole set-up.
31r.GROSS: NOW, Sir, by whom is the Director of Education of the
Territory appointed?
AIr.VAN ZYL: He is appointed by the Civil Service Commission of the
Republic of South Africa on the recomrnendation of the Executive
Committee of South West Africa.
&Ir.GROSÇ: The Civil Service Commission is, 1take it, a branch of the
Government of the Republic, is it, Sir?
Nr. VAS ZYL: YOUare right, yes.
Mr. G~oss: 1s there a Civil Service Commissioner or is that aCom-
mission of more .. .?
AirVAN ZYL: It is a Commission consiçtingof a number of perçons.
Ah. GROSS:Approximately how many, Sir?
31r. VA^ ZYL: 1 should say there are five.
Mr. GRCISSA : re they al1White, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL: They are al1 White, hfr. Presiclent.
Mr. GROSS: Now, you said,did you not, Sir, that there is a Chief
Inçpector in the Education Department?
Jlr.VAN ZYL: Yes. -
Jfr. GROSS: Presumably appointed by the Director of Education, is
he-as far as you know?
&Ir.VANZYL: Well, also appointed by the Civil Service Commission
on the recommendation of the Director and the Executive Comrnit-
tee.
Xr. GRCISS :ou referred also, did you not, Sir,atDeputy-Director?
Jlr.VAN ZYL: Yes.
Air.GROSS: 1she also appointed by the Civil Service Commission?
JIr.VAS ZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
AIr. GROSS: And there are a number of inspectors composing an
inspectorate for various population groups, is that correct, Sir?
&Ir.VANZYL: That iscorrect, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: And how are those inspectors selectecl, Sir? Are they
appointed?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Usually vacancies are advertised and from amongst
the applicants recommendations are made by the Director and the
Executive Committee tothe Civil Service Commission and they finally
appoint a candidate.
Mr. GROSS:And there isan inspector for the Coloured, an inspector
for the IVhite, an inspector for the Native schools, is that corrSir?
JIr.VAN ZYL:As 1 have pointed out in my chief cvidence, Mr. Presi-
dent, 1 arn not perfectly sure of what the position is at the present
moment but from what 1have gathered in conversations with colleagues
in that area, they have got one inspectorate inspecting White and276 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA .
Coloured schools on the one hand andanother inspectorate for the Bantu
schools.
Mr. GROSS:Are those inspectors also appoirited by the Civil Service
Commission or have you answered that, Sir?
hlr.VAN ZYL: They are appointed by the Civil Service Commissio~i.
Mr. GROSSI :n Pretoria?
Mr. VAN ZYI.: In Pretoria.
hlr.GROSSA : rethey ...
Mr. VANZYL: 1must make this clear, Mr. President, the first selection
takes place in Windhoek and the first recommendationç are made by the
Director and the Executive Committee, and the Civil Service Com-
mission in Pretoria acts only on their recommendations when they
finally appointthem.
hlr. G~oss: Tliey recommend and the Civil Service Commission
appoints, 1take it.
&Ir.VANZYL: YOUare right. Yes.
Xr. GROSS:Do you knoiv hotvmany inspectors there are, Sir?
Mr. VAN ZYL: For Uantu education?
&Ir.GROSS Y:es, Sir.
Rlr.VANLYL: There are five. Five approved posts; whether they are
al1filled at the present tnomen1 could not tell you.
Mr. GROSS:Can you tell the Court, Sir, whet.her, as far as you are
aware, they are al1White?
hTr.VAN ZYL:The inspectors are al1 White, 311 President.
Mr. GROSS:At what level, Sir,in the hierarchy of the educational
administration does the non-\hite occupy a position-name the higlzeçt
level if you will please, if know?
hIr. VANZYL:In South lTiesAfrica?
JIr.G~oss: Yes, Sir.
Mr. VAS ZYL: Ali.President, as far a1 know the first post frorn the
top occupied by a Bantu is that of sub-inspector. It aspost just below
that of inspectorofschools and the airn is that he should ultimately take
the position of that \Vhite inspector. As soon as hc is coiisidered capable
of doing so, as soon as the particular Bantu group or Uantu authority
has corne to the stage where it assumes full responçibility for its educa-
tional servicesthe White inspector is withdrawn and the Bantu sub-in-
spector takes his place. There may still thenbea person inn position of
authority over the Bantu inspector,he wiIIalso ultimately be withdrawn
and be replaccd by a Rantu, Say?Director, or whatever hemay be.
Mr. GROSS:Arc there any Bantu sub-inspectors, so far as you are
aware Sir, in the portion of the administration dcaling with Coloured or
imite schoolç?
Xr. VAN ZYL:There are none, as far as 1 know, hlr.President.
Aïr.GROSS: ifrith respect to the promotion eligibility of Rantu sub-
inspectors to inspéctors, how many, if any, such promotions have been
made in the history of the Territory since the Mandate?
Mr. VAS ZYL: None, as far a1 know, %Ir.President.
Mr. GROSS:Now, Sir, would you, as an expert, be in a position to
advise the Court, express your opinion, concerning the reason why no
Bantu sub-inspectors have become inspectors?
&Ir.VAN ZYL:Tlie reason, Mr. President, iç mninly because at the
present moment there is no Rantu authority yet which has assumed full
responsibility foritseducational services, and so long as the final re- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 277
sponsibility of such services rests with the White Government in South
Africa the White Government iç repreçented by a White inspector in a
particular area but as 1have said, as soon as they reach the stage where
the White Government withdraws for al1 practical purposes, then the
White Government's representative in the person of such an inspector
is also withdrawn.
The PRESIDENT: Couid 1 ask the witness, Alr. Gross; when you Say:
until the Bantu group has assumed the full responsibility, does tliat mean
every responsibility including financial responsibi?ity
Mr. VANZYL: Yes. Of course, the financial rr:sponsibility may still be
made possible through subsidies received from the rnother government,
asthe position is in the Transkei at the momerit.
Mr. GRCISS Excuse me, &Ir.President.
The PRESIDENT :Certainly .
Mr. GRC~SS You testified1 believe, did you not, that you had spent
some months in the Territory in 1958 as Chairrnan of the Enquiry into
Bantu and Coloured education in South West Africa?
Rlr.VAKZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSS : nd that you had, i1 understood your testimony, numer-
ous consultations,1do not rernember tlie qualifier, but you had consul-
tations in the course of your enquiry therwith members of the popu-
lation groups-is that correct, Sir?
Mr. VAKZYL: Yes, &Ir.President.
Mr. GROSS D:id you, as a result of your enquiries and consultations,
reach a conclusion with respect to whether or not there were actualiy in
the school system in South West Africa, Bantu teachers or principals
who would be qualified to become inspectors or higher in the educational
administration of the Territory?
Mr. VAKZYL:Rlr. President, I was impressed by some of the Bantu
teachers 1 met in South West Africa, by their persons and alçoby their
ability to teach because 1 made use of the opportunity also to attend
some lessons conducted by some of these teachers. But of course1would
not consider anyone adequately qualified for the post of inspector until
he has had experience in other posts leading up to that high post of
inspector.
Mr. G~oss: Did you ascertain whether there were such persons who
are obtaining experience in those sub-posts, 1 rnay call them that?
hlrVANZYL: At the time of the enquiry, Mr.President,therewere no
such posts. There were no posts of Bantu supervisors of schools as we
used to call them in the Republic at the time. 'Therewere also no posts
of Bantu sub-inspectors of çchools. As a matter of fact there were not
even White inspectors for Bantu education; they had only one in-
spectorate serving al1 the schools in South West Africa. It waonly Our
Commission that recommended the institution of posts of Bantu super-
visors of s~:hools-we did not even at the time recommend the post of
sub-inçpector because it was something that came later and we thought
that they should first establish properly a post of supervisor and then,
subsequently, the post of sub-inspectershould be introduced as things
developed.
Mr. G~oss: Do 1 understand you correctly, Sir,to testify that in
1958, wheri you were conducting your enquiries in South West Africa,
there were no Rantus employed in the educational system as sub-
inspectors, ishat correct, Sir?~78 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr.VANZYL: That is correct,blr.President.
Alr. GROSS W:ere any Bantus employed in the educational system at
administrative levels or executive levels iany capacity, Sir?
Mr. VAN LYL: Not that 1 know of,&Ir.President.
hlr. GROSSY : OU would have known, Sir, that was relevant to your
enquiries, was it, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, 1 would have known, Air. President.
>Ir. GROSS D:id YOU not also testify that from pour observation and
analyses of the situation, as well as consultations, you reachthe con-
clusion that there were individual Bantus, who had qualification to
exercise these posts subject onlto lackof training for them-is that the
sense of your testimony, Sir!
Mr. VANLYL: iVe11,1 came to the conclusion that there were Bantu
in the Territory who were capable of assuming certain administrative
responsibilities and we immediately recommended the institution of
such positions for these people.
As 1 have pointed out, we recommended the post of superviçor of
schools which will place certain Bantu educationists in positions of
authority over principals of schools. As a matter of fact, within the
Police Zone at the time there were not even proper posts of principals of
çchools. Ive also recommended that, so as to give them more authority.
We recommended posts of supervisors of schools who could bein positions
of authority over the principals, ande recommended the institution of
school boards which would have fully fledged and full-time secretaries;
and we considered those to be the fields for these people tgain experi-
ence in the service of their own people.
>Ir.G~dss: Were your recommendations accepted, Sir, in any of these
respects ?
Alr.v.4~ ZYL: They were, i\Zr.President.
Air. G~oss: If you have not already testified to this,Sir,would you
please tell the Court how many Bantu sub-inspectors there are at the
present time employed in the system.
$Ir. VANZYL: hlr. President,1 would not be able to tell how many
have actuaiiy been appointed, and also what 1 Say is not because of
officia1information that 1have, but in conversations with colleagues and
friends there1 have concluded that they have approved of five posts of
sub-inspecter.Whether these posts are al1 filled at the present moment
I would not be able to say.
hlr.G~oss: But it would presumably follow, would it not, Sir, that if
the recornmendation had been made for five such posts,thatit was not
considered beyond the realm of practical possibility that there were
people eligible to fil1them? 1s that not a fact?
Mr. VANZYL:1 should think so, yes, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: This recommendation with respect to the creation of these
five posts, to whicli you refer, was made when, Sir?
Mr. VAN ZYL: 1 am absolutely uncertain, Mr. President: 1 would not
be able to Say. Also, perhapç 1 should just add this, it might be possibl'
that they have not yet decided on the term "sirb-inspector", that they
\iTouldstill cal1 them "supervisors"of schools, but it wilcorne to the
same thing, the principle will remain unchanged.
IIMr. GROSS T:his clarifies, SiIthink, what you meant by the word
posts" in connection rvithmy question as to ~vhetheryou knew the
highest level at which Bantus were actually employed. You testified
# WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 279
now, Sir, t.hat you are not aware, of your own knowledge, whether any
of these five posts are actually filled by Büntu; is that correct, Sir?
hlr.VANLYL: That is right, Mr. President.
Mr. GRGSS N:ow, Sir, therefore, may 1revert to my question and ask
whether, on the basis of your own knowledge, you can tcll the Court the'
highest level in the administrative structure,with respect to education
in South West Africa, in which Bantu are actually employed and at
work?
Mr. VAXZYL:1 am afraid, Mr. President, that1 would not be able to
tell.
Mr. GROSS M:'ould YOU, Sir,asan expert, regard it asimportant tllat
such positionsbe filled? Important, ifI may clarify my question, forthe
sound training of Bantu and forthe betterment crfthe educational system
+th respect to the Bantu?
hlr.VANZYL: Mr. President, it is South African policy not to have
integrated systems of any kind, so there will not be and 1cannot advo-
cate the establishment of an integrated administrative system, but the
opportunities for administrators tobe trained are created when separate
administrations for the different Bantu authorities are established. Then
al1 potential administrators are takenup into that system and they are
trained by White seniors untiI those seniors witltdraw.
hlr. G~oss: Would it be a fair interpretatiori of your testimony just
now thatthe reason why there are no Uantu in administrative positions-
that is the. case, is it not, Sir, incidentally?
Blr.VANZYL:1 believe it is the cas1,would not be ...
hfr. GROSS:Accordiitg to your view, your opinion, would you Say, Sir,
that the reason for that is because by employrnent of such perçons in
administrative positionsyou would produce nhat you describe as an
integrated system? 1sthat the point, Sir?
Blr. VAKZYL: That is right, hlr. President.
Mr. G~oss: And would it notfollow then, Sir, that the reason why the
Bantu are not employed in these positions is because of the policy of
apartheid, is that correct, Sir, or separate developrnent, as it is known?
Rlr. VAN ZYL: The policy of separate dcvelopment, 1 should say so,
yes, Mr. President.
hlr. G~oss: There would be no other reason, so far as you areaneare,
Sir, for this phenornenon-that there are no Bantu employed in the
direction oftheir own system of education?
hlr. VAN ZYL: Of course, Mr. President, there are many reasons for
rnaintaining this policyof separate developrnent.
Mr. GROSÇ :lrell, Sir, 1 had not intended at the moment toget into the
policy of separate development, which 1 shall, with the Court's per-
mission, come to in due course. 1 am atten~pting to establish, and 1
believe th(: answer has already been given, Sir, that it is tlie policy of
separate development or, as it iç alternatively known in this record,
apartheid, which accounts for the fact that theri: are no Bantu ernployed
in administrative positions in the Bantu education system in South
West Africa. That is a correct reflectioof your testimony?
fiZr.VAK ZYL: I should think so, yes,Rlr.President.
Rlr.GROSS1: should like to turn now, Mr. President, ta different but
related subject,and that is with respectto thehoad aspects of the edu-
cation policy in the Territory. 1 think you testified, ifmy notes are
correct, Sir, to thefect that one of the criticisms of the earlier system of280 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
education was that it was not part of a general plan. Was that sub-
stantially your testimony, Sir?
Mr. VAN ZYL:Not part of a general plan for the development of Bantu
communities.
Mr. G~oss: And you testified, if 1 understood you correctly, that the
schools formerly in existence in the educational system in vogue then
did not tend toward the development of self-reliant, self-dependent
Bantu communities; was fhat substantially your testirnony?
Mr. VANZYL: Well, not to the extent that they ought thave done so.
&Ir. CROSS: Now, Sir, with respect to the southern sector of the
Territory, did you inyour studies,in 1958, take into account conditions
there and make recomrnendations with respect to that sector?
&Ir. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Mr. Gsoss: You did not confine yourself exclusively to the northern
areas of the Territory, is that correct?
hlr. VANZYL:Definitely not, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: Did you, in connection with your studies of the education
probiem and system in the southern sector, take any special notice of
the situation prevailing in that portion of the southern sector, Police
Zone, lying outside the Reserves?
hfr. VANZYL: Yes, we did, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSS: In connection witlithe education policies-1 ask you this
either as a witneçs or expert, or both-then in effect in 1958, in the
southern sector outside the Reserves, was that eduçational system
directed toward the development of what you described, 1 believe, as
self-reliant, self-dependenBantu communities?
Mr. VAN ZYI,: As I have said, Mr. President, if it did contribute
towards it, is did not do so to the extent it should have contributed.
Mr. GROSS:The Odendaal Commission report, Sir, refers, in several
places which have been placed into the record, to numbers of Bantu,
of various tribes, who are, as the Commission expresses it, "absorbed"
into the diversified economy of the southern sector. In your studies with
regard tothe education system, and 1am talking now about the exchange
economy, the southern sector outside the Reserves, in your studies of the
education system there, did you take into account the significance, if
any, of the fact thatthe Bantu were absorbed in the diverçified economy?
Mr. V-4~ ZYL:I think we did, Mr. President. 1 cannot remember well,
but 1 think we did.
hfr. GROSS: But you did pay attention, 1 assume, to the problems
presented by this absorption of the non-Whites into the economy, did
you not, Sir?
Mr.VANZYL:l'es, yes we did take . ..
The PRESIDENT: I think, Mr. Gross, you should make clear what you
mean by the words "absorb" and "absorption".
Mr. G~oss: With deference, 1 would like to ask the witnessifhe could
make it clear.
The PRESIDENT N:O, 1 think you should make it clear because it has
been a rnatter of controversy as to what the word really means.
Mr. GROSS :ir,I do not know what the word means so Icannot make
it clear1 will domy best, however, to avoid misleading the witness,by
referring specificallto the sectionof the Odendaal Commission report
which 1 have in rnind, and which has been previously introduced into
the evidence. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 281
For example, Sir, on page jr of the Odendaal Commission report,
paragraph 113, the following staternentismade:
"With the arriva1 of the Whites, resulting in increased persona1
safety and greater development, the Damara were able to evolve a
totally new way of life. Largenumbers were absorbed in the econorny
of the southern part of the country and displayed exceptional
aptitude as employees."
Sir,would you have an opinion as to what the Odeiidaal Commission
meant by the use of the word "absorbed" in that context?
&Ir.VAX ZYL: Sir, 1 would not like to give an opinion on that matter.
1 have not studied it and 1 failtogive an expert opinion on it.
Mr. GROSS;Would you care to advise the Court what you considered
the correct designation of the relationship lietween the non-White
ernployees and the economy; would you describe it, Sirifyou do not
accept the term "absorbed"?
Mr. VANZYL: NO,1 u~odd not know what to answer,or how to answer
that question,Mr. President. You will agree tllüt it is not in my particiilar
field of interest.
Mr. G~oss: Well, Sir,1 donot tllink that1 worildagree to that but that
is iiot for me.I think that the question rnight bc :~pproaclied from a
slightly dii'ferent way. Do you feeas an educational espert, and in the
light othe responsibilitieyou have testihed you pcrform, that education
has a relevance to the relationship of an inclividunl to the economy in
which he works?
Mr. VANZYL: 1 should Say yes, 3lr. President.
J3r.G~oss: And if he is a working mernber ofthc econorny, let ussay
during his lile, would the nature and objectivesof his cducation have a
relevance to his potential of accomplishment in that cconomyi
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, it would.
Mr. GROSS:From the economic point of viexv-1 am not addressing
this question to you as an economist, which WC: know you are not, Sir,
but as an educator-ivhat, if any, consideration did you giire, in the
course of your enquiries, in 195s or at other times, to the problems
posed by the education of persons, non-White perçons, who were-and 1,
with the permission of the President, puttheword in quotes-"absorbed"
into the IVhite economy, asit is called? Did you pay attention to that
problem, Sir?
Air.VASZYL: IlTell,Mr. President, we were mostly concerned with the
economic development of the Bantu homelands and the different Uantu
national groups.
Mr. GROSS:lVhen you Say you were mostlp concerned, Sir, 1 think
you have testified that you did consider, did you not, 1 do not want to
put words in your mouth, but did you not testify, Sir, that you did
consider tlie educational problems of the southern sector outside the
Reçerves? You did testify to that?
Pllr.VANZYL: Yes, we did.
Mr. GROSS : ould you wish the Court to undcrstand that you did not
regard that asan important aspect of the educational system in South
West Africa?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, kir. President, but we did not take those Natives
who had established themselves outside tlie Native Reserves as being
completely cut off from their regions of origin, and from the national282 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
groups to wliich they belonged. ifTestill took them bean integralpart
of those national groups.
Rlr.GROSS :o that,if1 understood you correctly, Sir, in devising your
recommendations you started from a point of departure, didyou, that
the Bantu in the modern economy in the southeriisector should be regar-
ded as a member, so to speak, of the northern areas? 1s that correSir?
&Ir.VANZYL:1 should say so-yes, Mr. Yresident.
Mr. GROSS :ow, Sir, didyou pay any attention at al1to the problem
of education with respect tohisperforming a role in the economy of the
Territory in the southern sector?
hlr. VANLYL: Yes, we did,Mr. Yresident.
Mr. G~oss:And, Sir, in that connection, would it be, then, relevant to
refer to the creation of self-reliant, self-dependentntu cornmunities
as the major objective of the education of such a person whois employed
in the White economy in the southern sector?
Mr. VAN ZYL: 1 should say so-yes, Mr. President. lleing engaged in
the White economy does not imply that an individual is cut offfrom his
own national group. 1mean his earnings and his skilmay be of economic
value to his own national group.
hlr.GROSS :ay we take, as an example, Sir, for the purpose of making
the matter more clear to the Court, perhaps, the subject you have
testified to, thaisto Say theteaching in vernacular or mother tongue?
Shall we focus on that for a minute, Sir? Now, with respect to the re-
quirements of a non-IVhite who, let us Say, spends hisentire life as an
employee in the modern sector of the economy, would you explain to
the Court, as an expert, whether or not vernacular-hitribal language-
is as important to him as knowing well the language of the economy in
which he works?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Well,1 should Say, hlr. President, that theisno need
to decide whether his mother tongue isof any significance for him in his
own group, but the point that we, as educationalists, wish to make is
that as a medium of instruction, as ameans of conveying knowledge to
a student or to a pupil, his mother tongue is a very important factor,
hecause he understands it better than any other language. That does not
take away the fact that any pupil with any mother tongue may acquire
a useful lcnowledge of any other language for whatever purposes there
may be.
Mr. G~oss S:ir, iita fair interpretatioof your previous testimony,
on direct examination, thatthe first priority is given to teaching through
the medium of the mother tongue-the higher priority?Is that thecor-
rect version of your testimony?
Nr. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President. 1 may add, at the present moment,
for at leaçt the duration of the primary school course.
>Ir.GROÇÇ Y:es,Sir. Now, would you state whether you believe, also,
that the same priority of teaching in vernacular, or mother tongue,
should be accepted in the case of the non-[hitwho spends his lifas an
employee in the modern sector?
Mr. VAX ZYL: Most definitely yes, Mr. President.
&Ir.CROSSI :lliaiis the reason for your opinion in that respect, Sir?
Rlr.VANZYL: Bccause it does not bring about anychange, hlr. Presi-
dent.No matter where a pupil lives, if he has a particular mother tongue,
that mother tongue serves the same purpose as it would have served
anywhere else. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 283
Mr. GROSS:Let ustake, as an example, Sir, if I may, a non-White-a
Bantu, a Native, according to the census category-who is employed,
let us Say, for rnost or al1of his working life as a domestic servant in a
"White household" in Windhoek. Now, in respect of his work and life,
would you Say, as an expert educator, that it is reasonable to give a
higher priority to teaching him in the medium of vernacular than in the
medium oï the language of the area, spoken by the persons for whom he
works?
Mr. V~rr ZYL:Mr. President, provision is niade for communication
with his employer by teaching hiÎn the employer's language, if he cares
to learn it, but, before he goes out to work, while he is still at school, the
employer'slanguage is not of such great importance to hirn as his mother
tongue, more particularly as a medium of instniction.
Mr. GROSÇ: Sir, there are,are there not, numt>ersof non-Whites (1am
referring now to Natives) in the southern sector outside the lieserves,
who are born and [ive and die in that sector? 1sthat correct, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL:It could be. Yes, RIr.President.
Mr. G~oss: Now, with respect to a person, let us Say, who has been
born of parents who themselves have been born and worked in the
southern sector-rny question to you, Sir, is whether you feel that a
purpose is served by giving a higher priority to instruction through the
vernacular to such a person than through the language of the community
in whch he works and is destined to work?
Mr.VANZYL:Yes, Mr. President, the fact that an individual stays for
hiswhole life in a particular area-or, shall wSay, in a White area-does
not imply that he adopts another language as his mother tongue. In his
home, in his dealings with his parents and with his friends, he still uses
his mother tongue.
&Ir.GROSS :It isthe palicy, is it, Sir, of the eclucational systso,far
as you are aware, .to perpetuate that condition, that situation? 1s that
correct, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL:1should think so. Yes, MT, Preçident.
Mr. GROSSW : hat is the reason for that, Sir?
hlr. VANZYL:Well, the educational reason, of course, is that the
mother to~iguestill remains a very valuable rneans of conveying know-
ledge to the pupils at school in the first instance. Also, the Bantu lan-
guages in South lest Africa and in the Republic of South Africa are of
great cultural value,and, as those entrusted witlithe development of the
Uantu people and their culture, the South African Government would
not like to be held responsible for having negiected such cultural in-
stitutions.
is the policy:ofithe South African Governinent to give first pnority to it
the development of separate komelands? 1s that the foundation of the
educationai system?
JIr. VAN ZYL: That is right, hIr.Presideiit.
air. G~oss: The question then would be, would it not, Sir, whether the
non-White, living and working in the modern economy of the southem
sector, is to receive an education which adjusts him more effectively to
the econoniic situation in which he lives, or to a homeland or area of
another description? 1s that a correct formulation, or do you disagree
with that statement, Sir?
hfr. VANZn: Mr. President, 1 think that both conditions should be284 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
taken into consideration, because, at the present moment, one never
knows where a pupil receiving education\vilultimately land. He may go
back to hishomeland irnmediately, or he may be employed temporarily
in a \irhite area.
The PRESIDENT I: is just on one o'clock, Air. Gross, and you might
be prepared to stop or stay at this moment, but, before the Court
adjourns, 1 would be personally grateful to pou-since you have, in
pour case from time to time, placed emphasis upon those people in the
urban areas outside the Reserves who were born, live and die there-if
you would indicate where the Court would be able to find any evidence
to establish the approximate number of peopleinvolved.
hlr.G~oss:1 shnll endeavour to supply that, Sir.
[Publichearing O/I October1g6j]
Mr.GKOSS M:T,President, ai the conclusion of the proceedings yester-
day, the President nsked the AppIicants to indicate to the Court where
the Court would be able to find anpevidence to establish the approximate
nun~berof people(1am referring, Sir, to this page, szdpra,of the verbatjm
record) involvcd, that isto Say, with respect to the nurnber of persons
who, in my locution, were born, lived and dieinthe Police Zone in the
urban areas outside the Keserves.
Sir, would the Court wisto have me commence with the reply to that
question, or proceed with the witness?
The PRESIDENT : think ?ou rnight proceed with the witneçs, hlr.
Gross, and al1the Court requires is a reference to the evidence, not any
explanation.
Mr. GROSS1 : could give that brieflgSir,if pou wish.
The PRESIDEST W:eil, you could do so now then.
hlr. G~oss: The reference would be to the Odendaal. report, page39,
tableXVlII; to page 39 of the Odendaal report, paragraph 148; to the
testimony of Professor Logan, X, pages 48r and following; to further
testimony of Professor Logan, X, pages 395 and 396; to the Odendaal
report, page 117,paragraph 433; further reference to page41 of the
Odendaal report, table XIX, the 1960 census; and as corroborative
evidence, the U.N. General Assembly document AlAC73/L14, 5 October
1959 ,age 6; and the General Assembly document A/AC 73/L101 ,9
August 1957, page 15; and, finally, the Odendaal report, Chapter X,
page 117,in particular paragraphs446 and 447. Inone sentence, Sir,the
conclusion inescapably to be drawn ...
The PRI:SIDPNT : hat isal11have asked, Pllr.Gross. Theonly further
question I ask, are the two United Nations documents in the record?
Mr. GKOSS: Of that 1 am not certain, Sir. TIiey are available in the
library, but1 do not know whether they are in the record.
The PKESIDENT T:hank you.
&Ir. GKOSS:1 wouId appreciate the opportunity, Rlr. President,of
explaining the significance of these figures in a sentence, lest 1 leave a
misleading impression. hlay 1have that permission?
The PHESIDENT W:ell,yeç, Mr. Gross; 1 only want the reference, but
ifyou desire to do so please do so.
Mr. GROSSY :CS, Sir. The phrase "Natives who were born, lived and
died in the respectiveareas" is a locution meaning those peqanently
resident there. The tnro terms used bme interchangeably are,~t is~ub- WITXESSES r\XD EXPERTS 235
mitted, established by theinformation given to the Court. Thank you, Sir.
May 1 proceed with the witness?
The PRESIDEST:Certainly.
;\IrGROSS : r. Van Zyl, towards the concliision of your testimony
yesterday, 1believe, or during the course of your testimony, you were
referring to the teacliing vernacular in the school system, were you not,
Sir, and 1have several further questions along tliat line, on that subjcct.
1should like to know wl-iatconsideration has been given to the problem
presented by the fact that in the Reserves in the southern sector there is a
wide distributiori of so-called Native tribes: specifically, SiI,refer to
the information clerivcd from the Odendaal Commission report, table XX,
at page 41, which revesls that of the seven non-White groupsrepresented
there, a11are scattcred among the 17 Native Reserves; and that the
Damara, for example, are sprcacl among 14 of the 17 homelands or
Reserves. The Nama livc in 12 of the 17; the Herero in 16-let me pause
there, if1 inay.
The PRESIDENT :s this in tablXX, Mr. Gross?
&Ir.G~oss: This is derivcd, thcse figures are derived from tableXX in
the Odendaal Conimission report, at page 41.
The PRESIDENT:Thank you.
$Ir. G~oss: Now, Sir, would you explain, in the liglit of those figures
of the scattering of the tribes throughout the Reserves, what considera-
tion, if any, was given to the problerns presented by that fact in the
establishment of vernacular instruction in the schools in those Reserves?
AIr.VAS ZYL: &Ir.President, 1would like to point out that each of the
Bantu homelands, or Reserves as AIr. Gross prefers to cal1them, belongs
mainlp to one of those groups, and 1 should say that in any of the
Reserves there is a language which predominateç. Ifthere are any people
in a particular Keservc belonging to another langmage group, they wiIl
definitely be a very small rninority group, and the mere fact that they are
found in a foreigri Reserve, Ifmay call it that, will be an indication that
they are familiar with the home language of th;tt particular area. They
might have grown up there, and they might have been absorbed by that
particulargroup, where they constitute a minority group.
Mr. G~ioss: Sir, may 1 take as an example-we are talking of course
now about the southern sector-the Reserve of Tses. It would appear
from the cited tablcXX, that in that Reserve the population is composed
as follows: Damnrn II.G per cent.; Nama 34.9 per cent.; Herero 48.94
per cent.; and then a small scattering of Ovarribo and Okavango, less
than Iper cent.
Now, wit:h respect to the situation in Tses, then, given this particular
distribution,what would be the language vernacular of Tses, for example?
hlr. VANZYL: Mr. President, in this case there would be substantial
communities representative of the different national groups which Mr.
Gross haç mentioned. 1 think it can be taken for granted that the 11
per cent. Damara constitutc one. or two, or maybe three sizeable com-
munities of their own; and even if they are integrated with the Damara
in other communitieç, the Damara still speak Sama, because those two
groups have the same language. So in actual fact, in this particular
Reserve there are only two groups to be considered, the Nama-speaking
group, consisting of 11 per cent. Damara and the Namas, who are also
Nama-speaking, represcnting 34 per cent.: and then, of course, the
Herero, speaking a different language. And here again, knowing the286 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Wereros as 1 do,1 am perfectly sure that they would not be iiitegrated
into the other cornmunities, they would form a community O[ their own
and it would not be difficult to provide schools with the Herero language
as a mcdiurn.
Mr. GHOSSS :ir, would your esplanation, which you have been good
enough to give to the Court, apply also to a Reserve such as Fransfontein,
where the distribution isUamara 60.9 per cent.; Nama 18.5; Herero 11.1,
and Ovambo and Okavango 9.49,approximately 9.5percent.? Would the
explanation you gave with respect to Tçes apply likewise to Frans-
fontein?
hlr. VANZYL:Mr. President, it will be substantially the sarne.
Mr. GROSS:In that case, Sir, where you have a relatively small
distribution ofOvamboand Okavango, let us say roughly g.5 per cent.,
do they receive instruction under the vernacular teaching plan in the
language of the predominant population group in that Reçerve?
hlr. VAK ZYL: Mr. Preçident, if this çmall minority group constitutes
a community of its own, it will be possible to provide a separate school
for them only. If they are individuals, scattered arnong the other main
groups in that particular area, one may assume that they have learned
to know the language of those groups into which they have been taken up.
Mr. GROSS\:Vould you have any idea, Sir, of the population of the
Fransfontein Reserve? The breakdown-1 have not figured the total,
Sir-is as follows from the same table: Damara 494; Nama 150; Herero
90 ;and Okavango and Ovambo 77-a total of 811.
Now, this, of course, is a small proportion of the total population of
the Territory-the Court will understand that. However, the point of the
question is to elucidate, taking thiç as an illustration, if you will, the
solution devised by the educators for the vernacular teaching where you
have a situation of this sort. LVouldthere, Sir, be a separate school for
the go Hcrero? \Vould that be contemplated in that Reserve?
Mr. VAN ZYL: If is dificult to say, Mr. President. This presents a
particular problem with which the authorities wiilhave to deal as best
they can.
The PRESIDEWD Tr:. Van Zyl, there is a copy of the report on the table
nest to you. You rnight be able to followMr. Grossmore carefully if you
have reference to page 41,so that you need not make any notes; you can
follow it on the table itself.
Mr. VANZYL:Thank you, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: 1 have been referring, particularly, Dr.Van Lyl, to table
XX-as the President says, itisat page 41.Norvyou Say, Sir, this type
of situation presentç a particular problem; how, Sir, is it proposed to
resolve this problem?
&Ir.VANZYL:iveII, 1 shouId say itwiIIdepend very much, Mr. Presi-
dent, on the number of, Say, Herero children present there. They could
be taken into one of the other schools1 should point out again that here
the two main groups-the Damaras and Namaç-will present no problem
possible to institute a class for Herero children at one of these schools for
the biggcr language groupa separate classin the same school.That often
happens, That is one way of getting out of the difficulty, Mr. President.
&Ir.GROSS W :ould you, then, care to comment, if you will, Sir, on the
statement made in the RespondentJs pleadings, in the Counter-Mernorial,
III, page 362, paragraph 22, sub-paragraph (i)which states that- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 287
"Of the 102 schoolsin thePoliceZone at present, roffers instmc-
tion iri 3 languages, an20 in two languages. Herero, is the medium
of instruction in rI schools, and IO of thr:se are attended almost
exclusively by Herero pupils. Nama is the medium in 68 schools:
in 6 of these lessons are also explained in Herero, and in the others
Nama-speaking pupils form the over\vlielming majority. Tswana is
the medium of instruction in 2 schools,at both of which Tswana-
speaking pupils form the vast majority."
Now, would it be a fairconstruction of that staternent in the Counter-
Mernorial thât, generally speaking, it is the situation that rninorities
attend school aiid that the instruction which they receive is, maybe,
oifered in the vernacular of another tribe, of the majority of those in
attendance at the same school? Iç this a correct inference to be drawn
from this analyçis?
Air. VANZYL: Bir. President, yes. If the rninority g-rosoismall that
the children from this minority group constit~ite a few inilividuals. I
should Say they could easily be taken up in the other classes because it
could be taken for granted that if there are so few living in that particular
area they ~vould be thorou-hl- conversant with the predominating -
language-of the cornmunitp.
air.GROSS N:ow, leaving this probiem, you have testified with respect
to the gencral policy of the introduction of the vernacular teaching, or
mother-tongue izirtruction,as the medium of instruction, thatthiçwas,
among other reasons, to preserve the culture of the tribe concerned. 1s
that correct, Sir?
Blr.VANLYL: Partly so, yeç,Mr. President.
hIr.GROSS W: ith respectta the mediuni of instruction employed, isit
also taken into consideration Jvhetherthe culture, or the language itçelf
-the cultural implications of the language itself-is çuch that modern
te~ms are iised-terms to describe modem economic orpolitical pheno-
mena, shall we say? Does the normal vernacular language encompass
those ideas or forms ofexpression?
Mr. VANZYL:hlr. President, I should point out again that, at the
present moment, the vernacular medium in tht: case of Bantu schools
does not extend further than the prirnary school course. For the purpose
of instructioninthe primary school, these languages- almost adequate.
We have had the experience in the Republic of South Africa that we had
to calculate, or we had to determine, whether there is an adequate
vocabulary to copc with the demands set by the requirements of the
about go per cent. of the terrns needed already exist in the Bantu lan-t
guages, and, as for the remaining IO per cent. of the terms needed for
this particularpurpose, there are several ways of finding suitable terms.
We actually had to (1 would not like to say fabricate) make them by
employing variaus rnethods. For instance, in the Republic of South
Africa we have issued, in each of the seven Uantu languages in that
country, a vocabulary list, or a list of terminologies, for uçe by the
teachers in the primary school, consisting of 8,000 words. As 1 have
pointed out.,about go per cent. of these words alreadyexisted; they had
only to be given their rightful place in the list and they wetobe made
use of in the school, and we have had great çuco:ss in making the tcrms
which were lacking.
The point 1 woulcl'further like tmake, hlr. President, is thaat the288 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
primary school level, it is not necessary to use difficult terms connected
with economics, politics. and çuch matters as those to which Mr. Gross
referred. For .the ordinary purposes of prirnary school lessons, the
languages are adequate.
&Ir.GROS SNOW,Sir, the primary school goes through what staiidards?
Mr. VAS LYI.: The first eight years of schooling, Xr. President.
hlr. Gnoss: What would be the last standard of the primary school,
Sir?
Mr. VANZYL: &Ir, President, there are two sections of the primary
school in the Kepublic; this is also being introduced in South West Africa.
Firçtly, there is what we cal1 the lower primary school, extending over
four years, the first two years being called sub-standard A and sub-
standard U, and then standards Iand 2. Then there is the higher priniary
section, also extending over four years, which includes standards 3, 4,
5 and 6.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, with respect to the number of students enrolled
in South West Africa-1 am referring now to South West Africa-1
would refer you tothe Odendaal Lommiçsion report, page 255,paragraph
1061, and, in particular,tableNo. LXXXXVI, which isset forthinthat
paragraph. Yoii wiIl notice, if 1 am correctly reading the table, that in
the enrolment per standard of Indigenous Language Groups-whicli. as
you notice, isthcheading of paragraph C on that page of the report-that
the enrolment at Standard IV is 1,124, oapercentage of 2.38of the total.
Would that figure mean that, at that stage,the teaching in vernacular
would end and the tcaching through English or Afrikaans, as a medium
of instruction, \vould begin, or would you describe what happens at that
point in the etlucational level-atStandard IV level?
Jlr. VANZYL: JIr. President, I assume $Ir. Gross is referring to South
lest Africa only?
;\Ir.GHOSS : es, Sir.
&Ir. VASSYL: Now, according to information at my disposal, mother-
tongue instruction in South IVest Africa at the present moment is only
applied up to the end of the lower primary school, that is up to standard
2, inthe southern territory. In the northern territoriesit goes as faas
standard 3,at the present moment, according to the information that I
have. So in certain areas they will change t1,believe,Afrikaans medium
at the standard 3 levei, and, in other areas-and more particularly the
northern areas-they change over to Afrikaans medium in standard 4.
That is correct, n3r. President.
Mr. G~oss: At that stage, Afrikaans, if Iunderstand you correctly,
Sir, becomes the medium of instruction, does it, Sir?
Mr. VANLYL: That is right, Mr. President.
Mr. Grioss: And, at tliat stage, is the indigenous language taught any
more?
Mr. VAN %YI,: 1 would not be able to Say for sure, Mr. President,
whether it is done, but the recommendation of the 1958 Commission waç
that the mother tongue should be taught as a subject right through the
primary school, that is up to the standard 6 level.I think that the
Odendaal Commission has çtressed the importance of that point also.SO
1 assume that the mother tongue, the vernacular, will be taught in al1
these classes as a subject.
Mr. GKOSSF :inally, Siron this point and in evaluating these figures,
it would appear, would it not, Sir (1am referring to table LXXXXVI WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
289
once more), that approximately half, that isto Say, 47.45 per cent. of
students are eni-olled in sub-standard A and then the figure for sub-
standard ESdrops off down to 21.32 per cent. Ibid you notice that, Sir,
in the figures?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes.
Mr. G~ciss: Could you explain to the Court the reasons for that
dropping-off of enrolment at that early age?
Mr. VAN21-L: Mr. President, 1 would not be able to Say exactly what
the reason is, but usualIy the normal reason for such a reduction in the
numbers is because the school system has not got the CO-operationof the
parents. In the Republic of South Africa, before we had oiir system of
comrnunitjr schools with parental bodies assuming responsibility for the
local management of these schools, me had the same position and it was
found that the iiumbers dropped as indicated in this table. The main
reason, 1 should Say, Mr. President, is that in South West Africa they
have not yet got the full CO-operation of the parents to see that the
children corne to school and that they remain at school for a considerable
period.
&Ir.GROSS: Sir, in your experience as an expert educator, you have
dealt with the problem of the attitude of parents towards the educational
system, have you not, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes.
>Ir. GROSS: Would you explain to the Court, Sir, the primary reason
why a parent would be, let us Say, unenthusiastic about whether his
offspring become educated or not?
hlr.VAN ZYL: Mr. President, could Mr. Gross please repeat his
question ?
Mr. G~oss: 1 am sorry. On the basis of your experience as an educator
you have testifiedSir, if 1 understood you, that one problem ~vhich
accounts fcir the dropping of attendancy when at this young age is the
lack of CO-operationof the parents. My question to you, iI may repeat
it, Sir, is Jvhether, on the basis of your experierlce as an educator, you
could advise the Court concerning the major reasons why parents in
South West Africa, for example, do not tender their CO-operation in
respect ofcibtaining an education for their children?
Mr. VAN ZYL: hfr. President, 1 think 1 shoul~~refer the Court to rny
main evidence yesterday when 1 tried to point out that one of the major
shortcomings of the older system which previously existed in the Republic
and which also, until recently, existed in South West Africa and, even
up to this day, in certainreas, the schools were educational institutions
which the parental comrnunities did not conçider institutions of their
own. They were regarded as foreign institutions establishcd by foreigners,
by strangers, offering an education of which tliey themselves did not
understand much and if the children cared to go there they could, to
acquire an education just for the sake of acquiring an education. Ifthe
children chose to remain at schoolfor one, two, threeor four years, they
were free to do so. Their parents did not botherbecause the schools did
not belong to them, they had no responsibilityand they virtually did not
understand what was going on.
Mr. GROSS: NOW,Sir, would you Say, on the basis of your experience,
that one of the primary reasons why the parents would be less than
enthusiastic in respect of their children becoming educated is that they
themselves are uneducated-the parents?zgO SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. VAN ZYL: I rvouldnot say that,&Ir.President.I thinkgencrally
the Bantu people of South West Africa, as also in the Republic of South
Africa, are kcen to secuasmuch education aspossible fortheir children.
These people are proud people; they have been independent for many
generations and they are used to caring for their children themselves.
They were used to providing whatever primitive facilities there wcre in
the traditional Bantu societyfortheir children themselves and now a
situation is brought into their community where strangers become the
benefactors of their children, strangers coming remote places would
bring these facilities for them and the children soon come to realize that
there are certain good things in life which their parents unable to
provide for them. The parents, on their part, seem to be reluctant to
receive these good things which are broughby strangers. It does create
the impression that they become the receivers of dole and charitand
they assume the image ofa miserable beggarinthe eyes of their children
whose affection and admiration they are supposed to cornrnand.
1 think that rnainlRir.President, would create afeelofrepugnance
in the hearts and mindsof the parental cornmunities because they were
used to providing whatevcr facilities were neederl by their cornmunity
and, more particularly,by their children and now, al1 afsudden, this
privilege is being taken out of their hands. I say,they just become
the receivers ofhese good things.
Mr. G~oss: Sir, when you Say "al1 of a sudden", would you mind
indicating to the Court whatirne period you have in mind? The Mandate
was, 1 believe, undertakenin1gzo. When were the first efforts made to
overcome this pride, or whatever expression you used, with respect to
the parents' attitudeoward education of their children?
.Mr. VAN ZYL: &Zr.President, do not think any effort was made until
the system of comrnunity schoolswas recornrnended by the 1958 Com-
mission. Prior to that the missionaries came along with their school
facilities and offered them to the parents and the parents never had
share in the management and control of the schools.
Mr. GROSS IVhat, incidentally,Sir, if you know, is the rate of literacy
in South West Africa among the Native popuIation?
memory.AN1 could look it up.nt,1had the figurebut it just slipped my
Mr. GROSS : ould you have the figure in mind, to help refresh Sour
memory, Sir, with respect to, let us Say, the literacy rate in the southern
sector, let us say, outside the Reserves, if there is such a figure?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Mr. President, here again1had the figure in mind, but
it just slipped my memory.1am sorry.1 would not like to gueand give
a silly answer because we can look up if necessary.
Mr. GROSS : ell, we rnight comeback to that if it çeems necessary.
The question 1should like to turn to is whether the answer you gave to
my question with regard to the attitude of the parents applies equallp
with respect to thc iirban areas of the Police Zone outside the Reçerves?
Mr.VAN ZYI.: TOa certain extent, yes, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSS : hat would be the major differences of the attitudof
parents in that sector from that which you described as a generality?
Mr. VANZYL: Well, in the urban centres 1 should say the parents
would make use of the school asa useful place where they can send their
children while they themselves go to work, sas to keep them out of
mischief.So without having due regard for the education that children will receivt: at the school, they are eager to gotto çchool and they
command thcm to rcmain there for the whole school day because there
isnobody at home and there is nothing else for thern to do.
Mr. GRCIS S :u would ascribe that part of thcir motivationis the
desirc to see theiriidren educatcd? Would you include that in your
explanation?
Mr.VANZYL: Yes. At the same tirne they achieve that end also.
Mr.GROS :Now, Sir, to the extent that that enters into the motivation,
generally speaking, of the parents' attitude toward education, would you
indicate to the Court what, on the basis of your knowledge and espert
opinion, would be the objective which the parents normally seek for their
children's (:ducation-objectivein terms of acci~rnplishrnent?
hlr. VA^-ZYL: Yrimarily,Mr. President, the objective is to acquire
literacy. All parents, as also the children, have a iicfinite desire to become
literate, that is to be tolread at least one language, maybe their own
vernacular, and to tvrite that language. And. of course, together with
this literacy they also acquiaefair knowledge of arithrnetic and a few
other things that may be taughtat school, buthey mainly go to school
in the first instance for the sake of literacy.
Rlr.GROSS: And then. beyond that, iç thata means to an end or is
literacy an end in itself in the attitude of the parcnts with whom you
have conferred on thismatter?
hlrVANZYL: In a certain respect it is an end in itself becauçe adults
in these te~~itoriesare very often confronted with the probiem that the
are unable to conduct their own correspondence. They go out to worc
and, if they arc not literatc, they will have to secure the services of some
person who is literate to write their letters home for them and also, when
the letters return,to read them for thern. Of course, this, to Say the least,
is an incursion on their privacy, so most of thc parents feel that once
they can acquire that amount of literacy, so tliat they are able to do
their own correspondence, they have already achieved something worth-
while.
Mr. GROS: Sir,if Iunderstood you correctly, you were referringI
believe, to why the parents wish to be literatethat correct?
Mr. VAH ZYL: Yes.
Mr. GROSS: I was referring to why the parents wished their children to
be literate.
Mr. VANZYL: Well, I should say in the first instance, they are also
thinking of their children becoming literate for its practical value but, of
course, some parents have much higher amhitioris for their childand
they would like them to remain at school for a longer period and ta get
more advaiiced education.
Mr. GROSS S:Othat, Sir, the falling off of enrolment, which is reflected
in these global figures, the table to which 1have called your attention, is
not due entirely is it to the lack of CO-operationor interest on the part of
parents?
MT. VAN ZYL: No, 1 would not Say entirely, Mr. President, b1was
trying to point out that the lack of CO-operation from the parents was
one of the main reasons.
Mr. GROCS Could you euplain, Sir, what one or two other main reasons
are?
hlr. VANZYL: Well, it is al50 known that the children do not like
school. It is Iike that even with White children in South Africa.zgz SOUTH WEST APRICA
Mr. G~oss: And everywhere else.
Mr. VAN ZYL: And everywhere else. Perhaps they become bored and
simply leave the schoolbecause they prefer to do so. Their parents have
not reached that stage of development where they would compel them
to remain at school unless they are properly organized in bodies where
they can help one another in this respect.
Mr. GROSS: Is there a system of compulsory education in the Territory
of South West Africa for Natives?
Mr. VAN ZYL: SO far asI know there is not,Mr. President.
RIT G.ROSS: 1s there a system of compulsory eiiucation in South West
Africa forColoureds?
Rlr.VAN ZYL: 1 think so, Mr. President, bu1 am not sure . . .
MT. GROSS: If you do not know, Sir, the record ..
Mr. VAN ZYL: Ithas been recommended . . .
MT.G~oss: The record indicates otherwise, Sir,I do not want to
mislead you. 1 just wanted to know wliether you had the information,
Sir, I gather you do not. 1s there a system of compulsory education in the
Territory for Whites?
hlr.VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr. Presidcnt.
Mr. GROSS:Would you explain, if you will Sir, why compulsory
education at anv leveisnot introduced in the Territory with respect to
Natives?
Mr. VANZYL:Mr. President, 1think mainly tiecause thBantu com-
munities have not reached that stage of development where itould be
feasible to make education compulsory.We shoiild not lose sight of the
fact that the introductiof compulsory education in any country or in
any cornmunity irnplies legislatiby which theparents are compelled
by law to send their children to school and should they fail to do so, they
are liable tbe prosecuted for not having observed the laws in connection
with compulsory education. We have consulted the Bantu communities
in South West Africa as well as in the Republic of South Africa, whether
they would Iike such legislationby which they would be compelled to
sendtheir children to school every day and consistently up to a particular
age or upto a particular standard. Al1the communities and leaders whom
we have consulted on this matter have indicated that they are not ready
for such a thing.
M .. GROSS: Now, Sir, you have referred generally to Native com-
munities?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes.
Mr. G~oss: I would invite your attention here again to the southern
sector, the modern economy in the areas outside the Reserves, andI
should like to introduce into the record here, just for the saofthe
convenience ofthe Court, that Professor Logan aX, page 480, testified
that the following non-Europeans were "domici1ed"-that is the ex-
pression used-in the southern sector as follows: home areas or Reserves
urban areas-jg,o73 and rural areas-68,334. Lest there be
any confusion in your rnind, Sir, about the meaning of the phrase
"domiciled he,testified at page 480,in response aquestion, that this
referred to whether or not there was a permanent place of residence. So
taking the figure for the moment, for the purpose of my question, of the
59,000 non-Europeans domiciIed or pemanently resident in the urban
areas of the southern sector, outsithe Reserves, would you Say, Sir,
that with respect to the educational system envisaged for thern, the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 293
principles and policies which you have expresced with respect to the
developmerit of Hantu cornmunities in the northern areas, for example,
would be the same principles and the same policies with respect to these
individuals in the modern economy?
hlr.VAN ZYL: TO a certain extent, yes, hir. President, but of course,
asI have said also in mjr main evidence yesterday that djfferent educa-
tional principles have to be applied in different areas and wheyou have
people at different stagesof development. Now, by and large, the prin-
ciples would be the same but there will necessarily have to be certain
adaptations in regard to approach, method and other such matters.
Mr. GROS: In following that up for clearer understanding of the policy
with respect to the educational system in this ari:a of whic1 speak, the
urban areas outside the Reserves, I am thinking now of the Natives
therein who total incidentally 49,000 approxim;iteIy because ro,ooo of
the non-Europeans are Coloured according to thi: Odendaal Commission
report-thinking of these approximately 49,000 Natives in the urban
areas, described in the Odendaal Commission report as the "money
economy", would you indicate to the Court what major differences you
would think, as an educator, would be relevant to the education of the
Natives living in and working in that sector, diffi:renceç from the educa-
tion in the traditional subçistence economy areas elsewhere?
Mr. VANZYL: Nr. President, as far as basic principles are concerned,
there wouId be no difference whatsoever but Mr. Gioss would like to
know what differences there would actually be. 1 should Say, in the first
place, there is an educational principle which has to be applied in al1
cases that a teacher, ininstructing his pupils, in conducting his lessons,
must proceed frorn the known to the unknown. And it stands to reason
that the pre-school knowledge of children living in urban Bantu residen-
tial areas wivlecessarily differ from the pre-school knowledge of children
living in rural areas. So that will have to be taken into account by the
teacher. Also one subject, environmental studies, is a subject which has
to be adapted according to the locality of the çchool, so it stands to
reason that, in the subject of environmental studies and later also the
subject of social studies, there will have to be an adaptation because of
the locality of an urban scliool and the surroundings.
Mr. GROSS S:ir, would it be the policy that in that adaptation to which
you refer inthe socialand environmental studies that the Native popula-
tion would be accorded the same opportunities for instruction in accor-
dance with their individual capacity as the White population?
Mr. VANZYL: Definitely yes, Mr. President.
hlr.G~oss: Then, Sir, suppose that an individiral Native cornes to the
authorities and says "1 love my parents and appreciate my tribal back-
ground but Iwould not like to study in vernacular, 1would prefer to
study in Afrikaans or English and I would like, if possible, the? to
prepare for a university life and perhaps go abroad to the university"
-let us Say, such a hypothetical individual should corne to the author-
ities-this is a possibility is it, Sir, that this would happen?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, to a certain extent,Mr. President.
Mr. GROSÇ: Weil, let us take just one case-may 17 \.mat would the
response be to hi~nbythe authorities?
Nr. VANZYL:Mr. President, the position would be that he would be
informed that no exceptions could be made. He %vilhave to study his
ve~nacular whether he is particularly interesteil iit ornot. It is arule SOUTH WEST AFRICA
294
of the country and the school has got to go through with it and iiçthe
sarne with White children. One could easily find an Afrikaans-speaking
pupil, who might not have sufficient interest in the Engtish language, to
say he would rather not study English, he thinks that Afrikaans is
sufficient for the purpose afcareer that he has in minciHe will notbe
allowed to take Afrikaans only, he has got to take both languages,soit
is tlie same in Bantu schools, it is laid down that the vernacular must be
taken as a subject and hc wili simply have to go through with it.
1 have to point out, Mr. President, that itis not as though he is
deprived of the opportunity of learning the officia1languages. In the
Republic they are taught the officia1languages right from the first year
of their schooling.If 1remember well, in South West Africa they have
decided to introduce the second language, orthe officia1languages, in the
second year of the school, and by the time they reach the end of the
primary school or, Say, the junior certificate course, they are normally
thoroughly conversant with these languages. So if he then chooseç to
drop his mother tongue, he can do so, but so long as he attends school, he
has got to abide by the rules of the school.
lilr. G~oss: How, Sir, 1 tliink that it wouldbe a matter of common
knowledge, of which the Court should take sufficient notice, no doubt,
that, with respect,Mr.President, in educational systerns throughout the
world, language instruction is compulsory, ço that this would not be an
unusual phenomenon, is that correct? My question was not directed
toward the compulsory nature of the curriculum. My question is directecl
to the point-perhaps you can answer it positively or negatively-ithere
any facilitin tlie 'ïerritoinwhich theperson I described hypothetically
could learn in the medium of Afrikaans or English ifhe was anxious to,
and his parents also were anxious for hirn to, let say?
&Ir.VAN ZYL: Mr. President, incidentally there wouId be few schools
in South West Africa where the medium might be Afrikaans particularly,
because, I should say there are small communities of Bantu people who
have adopted Afrikaans as their home language. 1 am speaking under
correction, but 1 think there may be one or two such communities in
South West Africa. In the Republic ofSouth Africa there are definitely
such communities, where Bantu people have adopted Afrikaans as their
mother tongue. In such cases, of course, the medium of instruction in
their particular school becomes Afrikaans and, if there is an individual
in a particular area where Afrikaans is not used asa medium and provided
it is also his own language, he can make arrangements and attend a
distant school where Afrikaans is used as a medium.
Mr. GROSS : ith respect to the territory of South West Africa, there
are, you Say, one or two schools?
Mr. VANZYL: There could be, hlr. President1 am not sure.
Mr. GROSS T:hey would be exceptional, in any event, or would they?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Exactly.
Mr. GROSS D:Oyou happen to know, Sir, whether either one is in the
urban areas in the southern sector?
Mr. VAN ZYL:If there are any such communities they would be in the
southern sector,Mr. President.
hlrG~oss: We are not clear where. The objective of the system, then,
would itbe fair to Say, is to deprive the individual Native in such case,
or to make itdifficult for hirn, to learn in a medium which he, personally,
or his parents if he is too young to decide, consider would be more WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 295
advantageous to him from the standpoint of pursuing his econornic liveli-
hood, would that be a correct statement, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL: May we put it this way, Rlr. President, no chiId in
South West:Africa or in the Republic of South Africa willbe allowed,in
a public scIiool, or government subsidized school, to be taught through
a medium ~vhichis not his mother tongue.
Mr. G~oss:His mother tongue being thatestablished by his parentage?
Mr. VANZYL:It can be established by liis parents.
Mr. GROSS : ould that be the normal methoti by which it would be
established?
MT.VAN ZYL: Yes. Mr. President, 1 believe it will albe subject to
control by some departmental official.
Mr.G~oss: To the extent that it would generally be controlleby the
parentage, would you say, Sir, then, that the medium of instruction
normally available to him depends entirely upon his ethnic background
without regard to the economic or social consequences of the educational
system?
Mr.VANZYL:Nr. President, it has a bearinon the econornic system.
1 think 1 should try to make it understood th& we believe that you
cannot takt: a pupil anywhere by trying to teach hirn right from the
beginning in a language which is not his mother t.ongue. You will appre-
ciate that when these young children corne to school and enter for the
first year, it is quite possible that they do not know anything of an
officia1language or any other language except their mother tongue. So
that there would be no point in trying to teach them through another
medium. The teacher would definitely have no success in trying to
achieve hjs goal.So, if the mother tongue is not used as a medium of
instruction, the future of that pupil, economically or otherwise, is vir-
tually doomed.
MT.GROSS:In the answer you just gave, were you referring to the
modern economy in which the Native is ernployed, or as well as the
northern areas of the traditional subsistence ecoriomy? Were you refer-
ring to both inyour terms of your response, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President, to both.
MT.GROSS : ith reference to the group, which is whatever word one
chooses (the Odeiidaal Commission reference is to "absorb", but 1 \vil1
not insist upon that word}, the individualç, the Natives who are at work
in the economy and who live in that economy, in that area, would the
system of which you speak, take into account the fact that their parents
and, in certain cases, grandparents, had been born and had lived in that
area?
Mr. VANZYI,:If it isnecessary, Mr. Preçident, for any particular
reason, it will be taken into account.1 cannot think of any particular
reason at the moment why it should be taken into account.
MT.G~oss: In connection with that response (you are dealing here,
I take it, are you not, Sir, with the rather fundamental question ofthe
relationship between the educational policy, concerning which you are
testifying and the society in which the individual lives-that generally
is what we are speaking of, is it not, Sir), do you regard, just by way not
of argument, but ofclarification of your perspective on this matter, the
49,000 Natives as an insignificant, marginal elenient,asçometimes has
been testified in these proceedings? You do not need to answer that
question ifyou do not wish to, I just wondered about the impor-296 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
tance which you attach to that number of Natives in these urban areas.
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. President, they could be of importance. FVeshould
not lose sight of the fact that they are spread over many different
places.
Mr. GROSS T:he urban areas?
Mr. VANZYL: Theurban areas-yes, Sir.
Mr. G~oss: With respect to these perçons-as you Say, they could be
of some importance-1 would cal1to your attention the discussion in the
Odendaal Commission report (1 will not burden the record of the Court
with extensive readings), page 427, under the paragraph (c), headed
"Protection of Traditional Groups" and, in particular, to paragraphs
1431 and thereafter on that page. 1 will not tax you with the necessity
of reading that infull, but the question 1 should like to ask you is whe-
ther, in the development of the educational systern in the modern or
exchange economy with respect tothe Natives, the consequences of social
change, brought about by the modern or exchange economy, art: given
special consideration with respect to the educational system for Natives
in this modern or exchange sectar? 1s the phenornenon of social change
brought about by the economy taken jnto consideration in the develop-
ment of the educational system?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, to a certain extent, Mr. President, as I have
pointed out already.
Mr. GKOSS :OW,Sir, when you Say "to a certain extent", and this is
why I wanted to corne back to yuur previous testirnony on this point-it
is designed to elucidate for the Court the impact of the policy upon the
individual-what would be the reason for any difference in the courses
available to Natives, as distinguished from FVhites,in this sector?
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. President, the courses are basically the same, and
in many instances they differ very little as far contents are concerned.
One would expect that the subject-matter in certain subjects would
differ slightly and the approach of teaching a ~iarticular subject might
differ considerably. For instance, the approach irithe teachinofEnglish
to Bantu pupils will, of necessity, have to differ from the approach in
teaching White children, or English-speaking chjldren, or for that matter
even Afrikaans-speaking children, but otherwise there isnot such a vast
difference. 1would almost say that there is hardly sufficient difference
between these syllabuses for it to be worth while mentioning.
Mr. GROSS: Well, Sir, in terms of your response, is the educational
system in the southern sector, to which you have just referred, an ex-
ception to the general policy announced, amorig others, by the Prime
Minister, that the Nativeis to be educated? 1 shall read an excerpt just
to see whether the southern sector is an exception or no1read from the
Rejoinder, VI,page 41,in which the present Prime Minister said:
"The Bantu must be guided to serve his own community in al1
respects. There is no place for him in the European community
above the level of certain forroflabour.Within his own community
however al1doors are open. For that reason it is of no avail for him
to receivea training which has as its aim absorption in the European
community while he cannot and w111not be absorbed there. Up till
now he has been subjected toa school system which drew hirn away
frorn hisown community and practically misled him by showing him
the green pastures ofthe European but still did not allow him to
graze there." WITSESSES AND EXPERTS 297
Now, Sir, would the policies which you describe genernlly,with respect
to the urbm area educational systenl in thc soiithern sector, be an exccp-
tion to théstaternent that "there is noplace forthe Bantu in the Euro-
pean comrnunity above the level of certain forms of labour" and that
"for that reason it is of no avail fhim to receive a training ivhich has as
its aim absorption in the European comrnunitf"' Would that policy
üpply to the soiithern sector in the urban areas in a modern economy,
Sir?
Alr.VAS ZYL:hlr. President, \\le will have to differentiate between
what 1 cd a general education, extending over the usual primary school
course and the junior certificate course, wliich does not prepare a pupil
for a particular specialifed task: iisa general education preparing hirn
for specialization in Inter Ijfe. So :is far as the fiist eight or even the first
nine school years are concerned, I should say that the present system
has no bearing onwhat Afr.Gross has quoted froin the Kejoinder, because
we must ünderstand that althesc years of education should be considered
as a prepa.ratory training for more specializcd work in later life,or for
more specialized training at a later stage. 1think I have made it ciear
that as faras the ordinary general education isconcerned, the system has
IIObearinp on that statement by the Prime hlinister.
So we must come to specialized forms of training, if >Ir. Gross was
tiiinking of tliat.
h3r.GROSS : eI1,Sir,Iwas just requesting your understanding, inthe
context of your responsibilities,f the policy as enunciated by the Prime
hlinister; at thetime he was, Ibelieve Minister of Xative Affairs.How,
in connection with the same foundation of the erlucation policy, in terms
of the policyas you apply it, would you exylain the following quotation,
wliich also appears on the same page of the Rejoinder,VI, in which Prime
Ministcr Vcrwoerd, among other things, in that quoted paragraph,
discussing the evils of the education system as it existed prior to the
Education Act of 1953 ,ays (begi~iningIiear the top ofpage 41):
"It [thst is, the education systenlj prepares theni iiot for life
withiri tlie community which would gradually be uplifted by it, but
fora life outside the comrnunity and for situations rvhich infact do
not esist. In other words the comrnunity haç not benefited from this
to such an extent that because of the gencral progress of isons and
daughters who have won pretty exarninatjon certificates it could
absorl~ them in a suitable manner. [And then 1 cal1your attention
particularly tothe following two or three sentences.]A considerable
number of those who were trained in thisway iveretaken upagain
inthe education machine which created a cycle of its own and of the
evils in isolatioof the Bantu comrnunity."
I'ausing there for a moment, would you have any errplanation.Sir,
of ivhat thc policy is with respect to the crcating ofcycle,in this tcrrn,
by taking up persons who were trained and putting them again in the
education machine?
The PRBSIDENT M: rRabie.
IlirRABIE: Sir,I am sorry to interfere but 1 would subrnit, with
respect, that this isbeing unfair to the witness. He has been asked five
or sis questions rolled up into one statement. 1 would suggest that the
witness be given an opportunity of reading ~vhat has justbeen put to
him. To me it seemed like a considerably long passage, and it is not clear298 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
to me, I do not know whether it is clear to the witness, 1 should think
not, just what the questioii is.
The PRESIDENTI:t is advisable if the witness is going be asked what
he thinks of the words used by somebody else-if that is what he is going
to be asked-that he should have a copy of the document in front of him.
In any event 1think he should have a copy of the document in front of
him, and so that might be provided to him, Mr. Rabie.
If you could, MT,Gross, itwould assist if yocould break the question
down. It is a little difficult for anyone to answer a question when you
quote at length what somebody else has said, as 1 have drawn attention
before, and then ask a question generally about that. That is particularly
so if the witness does not have the document in'front of him.
Ithink hlr. Gross will break the question down, MT. Rabie. In the
meantirne, I think it would bea good idea if a copy of the KejoinderVI,
ifthat is the one jroreferto,hlr. Gross,wstsgiven to thewitness. \210uld
you provide him with one: have you got a copy there?
hlr.RABIE :es, Sir:1 could, Mr. President ...
The PREÇIDENT:Oh, it's your own copy, is it?
hfr.RABIE:The Court niight not wish him to see what is contained in
the rest of the Rejoinder ...
The PRESIDENT:Counsel's observations on the side!
hlr. RABIE: 1do not know how we can avoid that at this stage.
Mr. G~oss: 1 would be glad to supply . . .
, The PRESIDENT:There is na objection to this [President's own] copy;
it is not marked at all.
hlr. GROSS1: am sorry,Sir,do you wish me to continue?
Dr. Van Zyl, before wc revert to this quotation on VI, page 41 of
the Rejoinder, may 1just ask one question, Sir, to place into the record
at this point: Did you testify yesterday that the Administrator of Educa-
tion for South West Africa reports to the Office of the Prime Minister
of the Repubijc?
hIr. VAN ZYL: l'es, hfr. President.
&Ir.GROSS:It would follow,would it, Sir, thatthe Prime Minister and
his Office would fix the poiicies by which the Adrninistrator for South
West Afnca is coritrolled?
hfr. VAN ZYL: Mr. President, if 1 remember correctly, I said that the
Adminiçtrator had to report to the Government of South Africa. and,
when I urasasked to which department, 1 said 1 believed it could be to
the Prime hlinister's Department.
The PRESIDENT:That 1 thought was your reply.
Mr. GROSS:Have you confirmed overnight your understanding in this
respect?
hlr.VANZYL: Yes, 1 have, Mr. President.
MT. GROSS: Can you tell the Court whether or not your guess wns
correct ?
Mr. VAN ZYL: 1 am sorry, 1 did not understand Mr. Gross correctly,
MT.President. 1 did not ascertain which was the correct department.
Mr. G~oss: 'l'esSir.This was just for information, Sir.1had recalled
your testimony yesterday, but 1 recall it was a guess and1 wanted to
know whether you had taken the opportunity to verify it.
Now, Sir, iI may, then, turn back to the quotation-have you had an
opportunity to read it?
3lr. VAN ZYL: Yes. Rlr. President. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 299
Mr. GROSS:1had just read thc following sentence from Prime Minister
Verwoerd's quotation: "A considerable number of those who were trained
in thisway were taken up again in the education machine which created
a cycle of its own and of the evils in isolation of the Bantu community."
1 ask you, Sir, as Deputy-Director of Bantu Education, whether you
could elucidate for the Court, you have an opinion on the subject,what
the significance of the reference to "education machine" would be in that
context ?
Rlr.VASZYL:Mr. President,1 do not fuilyunderstand what the Prime
Minister meant by that particular quotation.
Mr. GROSÇ: Now, Sir, coming to the nest sentence: "In this way
Sative education senred to create a class of educatedand serni-educated
perçons without corresponding national development", and, then,
finally, if 1 may bracket this with the 1st sentence: "This is the class
which has learned that itis above its own peoplc and feels that its spiri-
tual, economic and political home is among the civilized community of
South ilfrica, namely the Europeans, and feelç frustrated that tlieir
wishes have not been complied with." MTitIioutasking you too general a
question about that, would you, Sir, in the application of the educational
policy with respect to the Native (again referring to those, as the Prime
Rlinister srtid, "absorbed in the economy"), explain whether youfeelthat
you believe that the Natives in that sector, in that modern economy,
represent a community which could be fairly called "uncivilized"? '
Mr. VAK ZYL:1 would not say they were uncivilized,Mr. President.
hlr. GROSS:Vrould you say, Sir, that, from tht: standpoint of the appii-
cation of the educational policy in that sector, the White population
there would. be a "civilized cornmunity" in a sense clifferent from the
way OU wouId describe the degree of civilization obtained by the
Natives ?
Mr. Va'r ZYL: Yes, there willbe a difference of clegree, Mr. President.
hlr. GROSS W:hat, Sir, would be the standards-objective standards-
if any, by which you would determine, if you could,whether a particular
Native had reached a degree of civilization corresponding, let usay, to
that generally prevailing among the \Vhite members of that sector?
Nr. V.AXZYL: %Ir.President, 1 am afraid 1 will not be able to answer
that question satisfactorily.
&Ir. GROSS S:ir, finalon this point,I would refer tothe statement by
the Respondent in the Rejoinder, VI, at page 41, not quoted from the
Prime Mirlister but set fortin paragraph 8, in which the Respondent,
among other things, seeks to explain tlie statement quoted from the
Prime AIinister, and 1 would invite your attention to paragraph 8 on
page 41, where it is statedasfollows: "Education provided in the afore-
mentioned form, Dr. Venvoerd stated, 'must stand isolated from the life
of the Rantu society' and did not uplift the community." Iinvite your
att'ntion to the following sentence:
"It served, at most, to create a small class of educated or semi-
educated persons who considered thernselves elevated above their
oïvn people and who sought to enter the ranks of the Europeans,
only tobecome dissatisfied and frustrated when they found that the
Europeans were not prepared to admit them totheir society."
Then follc~wsthe elaboration from his speech which we have discussed.
NOW,with respect to the statement in the Rejoinder which 1have quoted,300 SOUTH JmST AFRTCA
is it, Sir, or is it not a point underlyithe educational system with
respect to the Natives of South jVest Africa, that no Native should be
educated on a bnsis which would Iead to his considering himself "elevated
above" his own people? Would that be a faircharacterization, in your
understanding, of one of the foundations of the Native education policy
in the Territory?
hlr.VAN ZYL: hlr. President, no. For al1practical purposes, the Bantu
in South \l'est Africa can get exactly the same education as Whites, with
necessary modifications along the lines we have discussed this morning.
But. othenvise, there need be no differenctls 1pointed out inmy main
evidence yesterday also, the general education given to Bantu pupils and
Imite pupils culminatcs in the same standards, the same examination
requirements, at the end of the full school career ivhen they al1have to
wite the same matriculati9n examination.
hIr. G~oss:And you have also testified, have you not, that there i-.no
compuIçory education forNatives in the Territory?
>Ir.VAN ZYL: 1have, Alr. President.
Mr. G~oss: And the figureson the enrolment have already been placed
in the record from the relevant table, have.they not?
hlr. VANZYL: YCS.
Mr. GROSS : ith respect, therefore, to the availnbility of education to
both, what inference would you draw,if any, with respect to the fact that
there are lcss than4 percent. of the Natives enrolled from StandardIV
onward?
hlr.VAN ZYL: Mr. President, does Mr. Gross want me to clarify that
position?
Mr. GROSS:DO you wish me to clarify the question, Sir?
The PRESIDEST: He wants you to draw an inference, ifyou have any
inference to dratv from the figures. 1s that tablXXXI? 1 think the
~vitnessmight just have the table in front of him.
Mr. GROSS :llat is tablLXXXXVI on page 255.That table, as has
already been demonstrated, shows the percentage of the total of indig-
enous language groups of the population enrolled in the Fourth Standard
as 2.38pcr cent., andmy question was whether you, as an educator and
an expert, draw any inference with regard to the, shall we Say, low num-
ber of Natives being educated beyond that level with respect to this
standing in the comniunity as a whole, the social and economic welfare?
hlr.VANZYI.: If 1understand the question correctly1 can only repeat
what I have said this morning, that because there is no compulsory
felt that it is part of their responsibility to see that their children rernain
ai school long enough to proceed to Standard IV or even beyond, it has
resulted in this considerable drop in enrolment.
The PRESIDENT :octor, does that esplanation apply a150 to the
diminution in figures of numbers enrolled from StandardV to Standard
X, whcrc it drops frorn 630 to32
>Ir. VASZYL:Perhaps to a lesser estent, Mr. President.Of course, the
higher the pupils go at school the more satisfied they become with what
they have achieved, and they themselves just leave the school, or they
may even persuade their parents, if their parents would insist on their
remaining at school any longer, to let them go out and work; but those
who are more arnbitious, of course, can carry on. 1would Iikc to make it
clear that there is no reason to believe that the drop is due to the in- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 301
adequacy of facilities, because facilities are provided as they become
necessary.
The PRIISIDENT lifight it be due to the absence of opportunities when
they leavc:school?
Mr. VANZYL: You mean opportunities of work?
The PRESIDE'JT O:utside, yes. of work.
Mr. VAN ZYL: Of course, a person who leaves school at theStandard IV
level is ntit suitable for any other type of work than just that of an
ordinary labourer. The Court will agree that a man who has gone as far
as Standard IV cannot be considered a kighly educated pe-rson.
Mr. GRCISÇ; In the context of your reply to the honourable President's
question, have you testified-my memory fails on this-with respect to
your knowledge or lack thereof nith respect to job restrictions and
reservations in the Territory?
Mr. V,~NZYL: NO, 1have not gone into that aspect.
Mr. GRC~SS A:re you awareof the policies pertnining job reservations
and restrictions, for example, on apprenticeship contracts of Natives in
certain industries-are you familiar with those? .
Mr. Vair ZYL:Not very familiar, althoilgh I have a general knowledge
of it, am aware of certain conditions.
Rlr. GAOSS:\.tTouldyou Say, in elaborntion of yonr response to the
question of the honourable President, whether the lack of opportunities
would be attributable to such restrictions and reservations, among other
things ?
Mr. V-4~ ZYL:NO, not at all.
Mr. GROSS: \f70uld you explain in what respect the denial of the
opportunity or limitations upon freedom of promotion in certain in-
dustries would not restrict economic opportunity?
Mr.VAN LYL: Theremay berestrictionsin the White areas forBantu,
but the Prime Minister and evcrybody else in the Government today is
thinking in ternis of the development of our Brintuhomelands, and the
Education Department is geared to supply whatever trained perçons are
needed for the further development of those Eantu homelands. In the
Bantu hornelands and in the development schemes which we find there,
there are iio restrictions whatsoever for the Baiitu.
Nr. GROS$:Would you say, then, that the pnmary objective of the
education;iI systemisto prepare and educate the Bantu for life and work
in, shall we say,BIack areas?
Mr. VAKZYL: That may be the primary objective, but it does not
exclude tfiem from finding employment also in White areas, if work is
available and if there are no restrictions.
Mr. GROSST : he testimony to which 1 should now like to turn is your
testimony yesterclay with respect to vocational and teacher training in
South West Africa; 1 believe you testified, did you not, that this is
within the responsibility of your Department?
Mr. T'ANZYL: l'es, of the South West African Education Depaitment;
you mean the training of-technical training .. .?
Mr. Gxuss: Vocational and teacher training schools in South West
Africa-does your Department have aily responsibility with respect to
those institutioiis?
Mr. V41i ZYI.: Only in the sense that they follow the syllabuses issued
by my Department, but for administrative purposes and local control
teacher training institutions andwhatever vocational training facilities302 SOUTH WEST AFRIC.4
there are corne under the Education Department of South ITrestAfrica
itself.
>Ir. CROSS:Would it be within the function of your Department to
decide, in the last analysis,whether or not additional institutions should
be established in the Territory?
hlr. VANZYL: NO.
Mr. GROSS:Whose decision would that be, in the last analysis?
hlr. VANZYL:1 believe it would rest finally with the South African
Government, but matters of this nature surely need not be taken to such
high authorities. lt rests, 1shouId Say, with the Director of Education in
South West Africa.
hlr.G~oss:The final authority would bc, you testified, in the South
African Governrtient; are you familiar, in this respect, with which
division or department of the South African Government would have the
final sayin this matter?
The PRESIDEN1 T:hink the witness is in a difficulty in respecthis.
In one sense al1policy finally hasitsrepository in the Government, and
it might be said in the nlinister of State, whether it be the Prime Minister
or any body else, under whose authority that particular department
functions, but many tliings do not of course go to the top. The question
iç, who would be responsible for making a decision in respect of the
subject-matter you are asking about?
Mr. GROSS :es, Sir. Who would be responsible for making a decision
in respect of whether or not a new training institutionshould be estab-
lished in South West Africa?
Blr.VAN ZYL: Well, normally, Mr. President, the local director of
education would take that decision.
$Ir. GROSS:The South West Africa director?
hIr.VASZYL: The South West Africa director, yes.
3Ir. GROSS:And would he provide his own budget in the event that
he decided to do so?
hIr.VANZYL:I should think so,Mr. President.
Mr. GROSS: He would not, in that case, be required by procedure or
regulation to request authority from the South African Government
itself?
MT.VANZYL: 1 CIO not think so, Mr. YresideiitOf course,1 assume
that even the director will have to get approval for extensive new
schemes from the local political authorities, such athe Executive Com-
mittee, the Adrninistrator, acting on behalf of the South African Govcrn-
ment.
Mr. GROSS:NOW,with respect to the facilities themselves: according
to the information in the Pleadings, 1 refer specificallto the Counter-
Mernorial, III, page 467, there are at present in the Territory four
vocational and teacher training schools.Does that correspond tu your
information, Sir? That is at III, page 467, of the Counter-Mernorial,
paragraph 4, if may save the Court's time. As stated in ChapteV there
are four institutions at which teacher training facilities are provided for
Natives in South CiTestAfrica.Do you accept that figure, Sir?
blr. V-4~ZYI-:1accept it as being so, yes,hlr.President.
hlr. G~oss And with respect to the vocational training as disiinguished
from teacher training, is it not a fact, Sir, that the Augustineum is the
only institution in the Territory which gives courses in vocational
training as distinguished from teacher training? WITNEÇSES AND EXPERTS 303
Mr. v.4~ZYL: According to information at my disposal, Mr. President,
industrial training,or vocational training,has aIso been instituted in
Ovamboland.
>Ir.GROSSA : tan institution, Sir?
Mr. VAN ZYL: At an institution. 1 would notbe able to sa]' at which
one, >Ir. President.
;\IrG~oss: M'ell,1wiil not press yoon that point. 1would, however,
refer you to the table on page 467-the same page of III-ïsrhich lists
the number of pupils enrolled from 1956 year by year to1963. Do you
notice that table, Sir?
>Ir.VANZYL: Yes.
Mr. GROSS Y:OUwiIl notice, for example, Sir, thain 1961there were
a total of 43 pupils enrolled ina course of training for carpentry and
tailoring a.nd masonry combined. That iç correct, Sir?
Nr. VANZYL:Yes, Mr. President.
Nr. G~ciss:In 1963 there were, in the same three courses of training,
only 33 pupils enrolledCan you express an opiriion, Sir, asto the reason
for the faliing off in enrolment,1iinterpret the figures correctly?
Mr. VANZSL: It is difficult to Say why this has happened, &Ir.Presi-
dent, beca.use normally the enrolment grows very rapidly andIcan only
ascribe this to a lack of interest on the part of the South West Natives.
Mr. GROSS A:nd would that lack of interest possiblbe attributable,
in whole or in part, to lack of economic opportunity?
Mr. VAN ZYL: By no means, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSS W:ould you in your further response indicate whether in
this context the job reservations and restrictions might have a dis-
couraging effect upon enrolment in this school?
Mr. VANZYL: Not at all,Mr. President. Perhaps 1 should point out
that judging frorn the table thatwe are studying here. in masonry, for
instance, forthe years1961, 1962 and 1963 there were no studentsat al1
and atthc preçent moment, and I should say for the pst few years, a
large number of masons, builderç, are needed for the new development
schemes in that area. They are needed to such an extent that many
builclers have to be sent there from the Republic of South Africa to assist
in the building schemesinthe northern territories as well as in the IJolice
Zone. So this could not possibly reflecta Iack of opportunity for em-
ployment.
Mr. G~oss: Do you Say that there could be no rclevance bettveen these
two phenornena, the fallinoff ofenrolment arid the job restrictions or
reservations?
hIr.VAN ZYL: Definitely not, Mr. President.
Rlr.G~oss: Would that be on the basis of aiiy knowlcdge concerning
the actual motivesimpelling the individuals not to apply? Have you any
concrete hasis for your opinion in this regard?
hlr.VANZYL: Well, 1can onlv repeat what 1have said, Jfr. President,
that there are opportunities, for instance, forilders. There aremany
opportunities for ernploymentand people aresimply not availabie. They
have to tie recruited from a neighbouring country and everybody, in
South West Africa knew that there mere always building schernes going
on and these youngsters should have known that their services ~vouldhave
been in dernand.
Mr. GH~ISS n:d jrousay, Sir, in the northern areas?
Jlr.VANZYL:As n'el1 as inthe southem areas.3O4 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
3Ir. GROSS N:ow, with respect to the southern area, are you familiar,
Sir, with the restrictions placed upon apprenticeship contracts on the
part of Natives in the building industry?
Rir. VAK ZYL: I know of if, Mr. President.
hlr. GROSS A:nd do you know, Sir, that that has been made effective
with respect toa number of occupationswithin the building industry?
hIr. VAKZYI,: As far as the training of apprentices is concerned, yes,
Mr .Y resident.
Mr. GHOSS: Would you regard this restriction as relevant to the
limitation of opportunity?
Blr. VAX ZYL: NO, AIr. President, because çpecial facilities for the
training of Hantu tradcsmen or artisans are provided; whereas Whites
have to be trained as apprentices, the Bantu yupils get their industrial
training in institutionsThey get a forma1 training in these courses and
they are trained by well-qualified instructors andIbelieve that every-
thing is done to facilitate their trainiin this respect.
Mr. G~oss: Sir, with respect to mining, for esample, are you aware
whether or not mining is a relativelylarge employer of labour in the
Territory ?
Mr. VANLYL:Yes, hlr. President.
Rlr. G~oss: Now, in respect of the mining regulations restricting
certain yosts to Europeanç in the case of European-owned mines which
are the substantial portion of the mines, what, if any, limitation of
economic opportunity would you consider from the cducational point of
view-stimulation of interest in education-what effect would thathave
upon the discouragement of enrolment in training courses?
hir.VANZYL: 1should not thinkthat it urould have any bearing on it,
Mr. Yresident.
llr.GROSS R:ow, Sir,in considering the developrnent of the educational
policy, is attention given by Four Department, or by any department so
far as you areaware, to the factualsituationas described by the Respon-
dent in its Yleadings-1 ivill take as an esample the Counter-hlemorial,
III, page$5,paragraph 30, in which reference is made tothe employment
within the mining enterprises and the restrictions on a racial basis which
prohibit certain posts from being filled by non-Europeanç. Tread the
following sentence, beginning near the bottom of page 55-perhaps 1
had better read the sentence beforein order to make rnyself clear:
"In the history of the Territory there has ai al1times been social
separation between these groups [to whit, 1i:uropcaii and Native],
and experience has shown that members of each group prefer to
associate with rnembers of their own group, and that certain kinds
of contact.between members of these groups tend to create friction.
[Then, skipping a sentence, the following statement ismade] In
this factual situation, most Europeans would refuse to serve in
positions where Xatives rnight be placed inauthority over them.
Although very few, if any, Natives in the Territory woulatpresent
be able to hoId any of the posts rnentioned in the aforegoing para-
graph. Respondent was nevertheless obliged to take cognizance of
the factual situation, and, for the considerations aforestated, to
adopt measures which would prevent Natives employed inEuropean-
olvned mining enterprises from being appointed to technical and
responsible posts in which they would excrcise authority over
European co-employees. " WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 305
Noiv, 1 have cluoted this rather lengthv excerpt to give the setting1
would like, with the President's permission to go back and ask one or
two questions of a specific nature.
In respect of the devclopment of the Native educational policy in the
Territory, istheunwillingness, in terms of the statement, of mostEuro-
peans to serve in positions where Natives might be placed in authority
over them regarded by the education authorities as a factor in the
development of the educational system itself, in any respect?
Mr. VANZYL:1 will have to think about this, hlr. Presiden1do not
think a problem of that nature wiIl necessarily arise in the educational
system. At this moment 1cannot think of any instance.
Mr. GKOÇS: NOW,specifically, in the context of the discussion of the
questions and answers relating to vocational training, focusing on that,
\vould the policy, orrather the factual situation described in the excerpt
from the Counter-Memorial enter into the nature of the courses or into
the nurnber of facilities available in the Territory for vocational training,
or would it be irrelevant to such a consideration?
&Ir.VANLYL:1 think it would be irrelevant, Mr. President. .r
Mr. GROSS: In othcr words, Sir, so far as your understanding is con-
cerned, the fact thatNatives are, i1 paraphrase correctly, ciosed from
positions in which they would have authority over Europeans as a
general policy of separate dcvelopment-that would not have any
bearing on a decision with respect to the nature or nuniber of vocational
institutions or courses offered?
311 .4~ ZYL: Nothing whatsoever, &Ir.President.
hlr.G~oss: Would ithowever, not bear upon the question of limitation
of opportunity open to the Native on account of hisrace?
MT.VAXZYL: 1 do not think so, Mr. President.
b'lr.G~oss: Do you mean that the Native is presurned not to wish to
aspire to positions in which he might be given a.uthority over Whites?
bIr. VAN ZYL: Mr. President, 1would not like to daim to bean author- '
ity in this particular field bu1 cannot see in what way a position of
authority over a White person could be of economic significance to any
Native.
Mr. G~oss: Would it help you, Sir, to analyse the question, if it were
to be pointed out that the posts from which Na.tives are precluded, for
esample in the rnining industry, do involve authority over Whites and
this is a reason assigned for their exclusion from those posts?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Well, Mr. Yreçident, 1 should Say that similar posts
could be laid on for non-Whites also.
Mr. GROSS: In what areas, Sir?
Mr. VAN ZYL:1 would not know, Mr. President, that is if Mr. Grosis
referring to the mining industry.
>Ir.GROSS: Yes.
BIr.VAN ZYL: I would not know.
Mr. GROSS: The fact is, is it not Sir, as has been testified, that the
heavily preponderant proportion, both of output and employment in the
mines, is in the southern sector in the European-owned mines-are you
familiar with that situation, Sir.
MT. VAN ZYL: Yes.
3fr.GROSS: Now, with respect to those mines located in those ares,
by which 1mean the southern sector, is it yoirr testimony, Sir, that the
denial of opportunity to achievecertain posts in that industry in those30~ SOUTH WEST AFRTCA
areas does not discourage aspirations for educatioin vocational training
relevant to the mining industry?
hlr.VANZYL:I cannot see how itcan possibly be so, Sir, because 1do
not know of any industnal school in the Republic. both for mites and
non-Ihites, where p-op-e are~specifically trained for occupations in the
mining industry.
fiIrGROSS: The fact, Sir, as set forth in the Counter-Mernorial,III,
at page 57, to which I draw your and the honourable Court's attention,
is surnmarized in the folloiving sentence on that page:
"It ishoped that the Natives will in tirne show increased interest
in the mining industry, and establish mining enterprises which will
accommodate such Natives as aspire to the technical and higher
posts inthe industry."
On your understanding of separate development in the education field,
which is one of the points to which your testimony has been directed,
do you understand this statement in the Counter-hIemorial as meaning
that when and if mining enterprises are established in Native areas or
in the Reserves that then such Natives, as aspire to the technical and
higher posts in the industry, will have an opportunity which is now
denied to them?
Mr. VANZYL:1 can see it that way, yes.
&Ir.G~oss: Sir,1 wauld like to discuss very briefly tlte problem of
teacher training as distinguished from vocational training. Withrespect
to teacher training, the Odendaal report, page 257, paragraph 1066,
indicates that in1962,there are 143 candidates in teacher traininin the
Territory-do you have that figure before you, Sir?
MI. VAN ZYL:Yes.
Mr. G~oss: Now Sir, would you regard this as an adequate numher of
candidates considering the educational needs of the Territory-as you
underst and them?
Mr. VAN ZYL:1 should Say, Mr. President, taking into account tliat
the full teaching establishmentat the present moment constitutes about
1,40 teachers, it is not clear from what 1 have gathered so far whether
thisfigure is indicative of the number of teachers that will qualify in
1962 or whether this isthe total number which ;ire in training.
hIr. GROSS:Sir, would it help to read the introcluctory paragrapro66,
may 1 insert it into the record, Mr. President?
"One of the most important factors hampering the espansion of
educational services for these population goups [which refers to
non-White] has alwayç been the lack of well-trained staff. The
present admission requirement for teacher training isStd Vt, and
dunng 1q62 the following nümber of candidates were in training."
It then sets forth the nurnbei at each institution and the total is143.
Having read that, Sir,could you respond to my question, whether OU
regard the totalof 143 candidates in trainin asadequate to the educa-
tional needs of the Territory from a standpoint of accomplishing >rour
policy?
hIr. VANZYL: Mr. President, 1 am trying to determine how many of
these students wiLlqualify in one particular year. Taking into account
the normal position, there wouid probably be about 70 teachers who
would qualifp in one particuiar pear and in 1962, when tliere \vas a
teaching establishment of something in the neighbourhood of a thousand WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 3O7
teachers, an addition of 70 totheestablishment would not be quite what
is required for an establishment of that sizeItshould be at least10 per
cent. accoiding to our experience.
>Ir. GRGSS:Thank you, Sir. Now that would bear, would it not, on
the first sentence of paragraph 1067 lollowing the one 1vehave justread
from page 257.
The PRESIDEK :TIt supports that paragraph.
Mr. GROSS: Yes, Sir. 1 wanted in fairness to the witness to point
that out in the context of his response.
"Although the present teacher-pupil ratiof I :37is exceptionally
favourable, the numbers of teachers now being trained will harclty
be sulficient to meet the increasing demand for educational ser-
vices."
1 take it, on the basis of your testimony,that you would agree to that
conclusion of the Odendaal Commission?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
hlr. GROSS: Now, Sir, could you explain to tht: Court why there is not
a greater enrolment ofteachers, if thereisa greater need and demand?
Mr. VASZYL: Mr. President, 1 think that the main reason, judging
from the figures that we saw on page 255 of the Odendaal Commission
report, is that too few children stay at school long enough to complete
the pre-training for a teachers' course, andbeiieve what the Education
Department in South Africa wiH have to do now is to step up the pro-
duction of Standard VI pupils in the first instance ançee that more of
them go through to the junior certificate level.
The PRESIDENT How wiIl they do that?
>Ir. VAN ZYL: Here again, Jlr.President, 1 would like to point out
that, having secured the co-operation of the parental communities
through a new system of community schools, they wiil be able to keep
the children at a school for a longer period than they did in the pzt.
So 1think they are well on theirway to produce Inore Standard VI pupils
and also to encourage them to go further-everything for their training
is made possible for them: the facilities are expanded as soon as it be-
cornes necessary and 1 belicve that at the Augustineum for instance, a
large majority of the pupils are boarders andthey get fullbursaries,
which cornes to free boarding and lodging while they are attcnding that
secondary course. So it cannot be said that the administration and in
particular theEducation Department does not go out of its way to rnake
it possibIe for these youngsters to achieve as high an education as
possible.
hlr. GROSS:LVouldit be going out of the way, as you put it, to havea
compulsorj~ educational system inthe Tenitory with respect to Natives?
Do pou have an opinion with regard to the desirability or othenvise of
the introdiiction of compulsory education for Katives in the Te~ritory?
The PRESIDEXT 1: this, do you think, relevant to any issue in thls
case, Jlr.Gross?
hlr. GROS : Cornpulsory education ?
The PRESIDENT:I'es, cornpulsory education as a matter of policy to
be introduced into any particular country.In many countriesthroughout
the world, there is no cornpulsory education and in many countries it
has only bt:en introduced recently.
hIr. GROSS:Yes, Sir. The Applicants, with respect, for response would308 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Say it is of estreme importance to their contention of the allocation of
rights, privilegcs and burdens on the basis of race, in view of the fact
that within the Territory of South West Africa. as the undisputed facts
show, there is a compulsorp system of education on a racial basis for
LVhitesand no compulsory educational system for Natives or Coloureds,
Sir,and this is the essenceofapartheid policy as applied to the Territory
in the educational fieland it is in that contest, Sir, that 1am attempting
to extract froni the witness his expert opinion concerning separate
development and its essentiality, according to his testimony with respect
to this differentiation on a racial basis, Sir.
The PRESIDENT:1 see.
Mr. G~oss: Kow ïïith regard to the question 1 askcd you-what in
your opinion is the reaçon . ..1think 1 asked you in these terms-what
is your expert opinion regarding the desirability or otherïvise of a
compulsory educational system for the Xatives in the Territory under
the preïrailing circurnstances?
>Ir.VAX ZYL: $Ir. President, 1 do not think that it would be ieasible
for the simple reason that the administration will iiot have the co-
operation of the Bantu people. They have not rcached that stage where
you can expect them to accept a drastic system like that. At the
present moment, they still need their children for domestic purposes;
they need them sometimes to look after the cattle or to help in the home,
to look after the cliildren and so on and thewilt not be satisiied with a
scheme wherehy they would be punished by law should they not observe
the requirements of the law. 1think otherwise if the administration could
secure their CO-operation, it would be a good thing and 1 believe the
administration would not be reluctant to introduce it,but at the present
moment 1do not think it isa scherne that can be introduced.
Air. GROSS: Sir,with respect again to the urban areas, \r.hich'are the
areas,1 take it, of rapid social change-that is correct,isit not?
Blr.VAS ZYL: Yes.
Mr. G~oss: \Vith respect to that area, 1 suppose there are no cattle
in the urban areas. With respect to the introductioii of a compulsory
education system in the modern economy-s~iecifically in the urban
areas-would you express your opinion as to whether a compulsory
system would be desirable or undesirable in that sector?
IilrVAN ZYL: 1 think, Mr. President, that a compulsory system can
be intraduccd with greater ease in the urban ateaç and 1believe that the
administration has made partial provision for that by encouraging the
school boards concerned to introduce compulsory education within their
particular area, and 1 think, for al1 practical purposcs, that there is
compulsory cducation in these urban areas. I should Say a very large
percentage of the children of school-going age attend school already.
Mr. GROSS D:O 1 understand you to say that it is your impression, or
isit your knowledge that there is a systern ofcompulsory education in
the urban areas in the southern çector?
air. Vari ZYL: Jlr. President,1 said, for all practical purposes, and in
the urban areas. Tt is not a sÿstem of compulsory cducation in the
ordinary sense of the word. I would like to repeal that the administration
ha made it possible for school boardsin a particular centre to introduce
compulsory cducation within its area,but it is not enforced through
legislation-itis only an agreement amongst the parents thernselves that
children should corne to schooland that it would bc compulsory and they WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 3O9
might even have a little fine of their own for defaultersI should Say.
Mr. GROSS:But there is not governmental policy and law comparable
in any respect to that applicable to the White population, which applies
to Natives?
Mr. VAN ZYL: No, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: It is a correct statement, is it, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL: That's right.
Mr. GROÇÇ: I would cal1your attention in this connection, to pa261
of the Odendaal Commission report, in which the following statement
appears in paragraph 1097. 1 will read the paragraph so that you have
the full, forceense of it :
"At present there is no statutory provision for compulsory educa-
tion arnong these population groups. Their customs and traditions,
and the fact that their educational tradition is not yet long estab-
IisIied, hamper the introduction of compulsory education; nodoes
the Commission conçider that compulsory education can simply be
imposed from above with any measure of success, unless the com-
munitieç themselves take the initiative."
Pausing thele,Sir,on the basis of your inquiries1958 and your expert
knowledge generally with regard to education in the Territory, do you
consider this finding of the Odendaal Commission, which I have just
read, to be applicable to the urban areas of the southern sector?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
hlr. G~oss:The educational tradition in that sector, according to the
language, is not yet long established, is that trrie, Sir, in that sector in
the urban areas?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes, 3lr.President, it is.
hlr.G~oss: Do you know how long Natives have resided and had their
permanent residence in that sector?
Mr. VAN ZYL: It would differ from place to place, Mr. President.1
should Say the first settlers from outside came to Windhoek about 60
yearç ago.
Mr. G~oss: That is at the time of the afterniatli, was it not, of the
so-called "rebellion" at the time of the German Occupation?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Blr. GROSS:So that it istrue, is it not, Sir, that there are s(1wiIl
not ask the number) Natives who have resided in Windhoek for several
generations?
hlr.VANZYL: Yes, sonie of them, Mr. President.
Mr. GROÇS:In respect of those, the modern or exchange economy has
been developing for how long, Sir, in that sector?
Mr, VAN ZYL: hlr. Preçident, are we referring to the White economy?
Mr. GROSS:1 am referring to the economy in which you have Whites
on the one hand and Natives at work on the rither hand in the sarne
economy. Referring to that economy, 1 ask you, Sir, if you know ap-
proximately how long this modern economj~-this exchange economy-
has been in the course of development in the sector?
Rlr.VAN ZYL: &Ir.President, as1have said, forabout 60 years.
Mr. GROSÇ : In otlier words, the period during which the Natives have
resided there perrnanently and successive generations thereofhas ah
been a period during which the sector has become a money or exchange
sector, is tfiat not correct, Sir?3=O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
The PRESIDBN There are a nurnber of facts al1egedin your question,
&Ir.Gross, such as,for example, successive generations have lived there.
1 do not know what the witness knows about that as afactual position,
but ifhe is not asked to answer tothe fact then he can proceed to answer
the question.
Mr.VANZYL: Mr. President,1 was just going to say that. Those living
there now would not al1have gone there 60 years ago. Some liave spent
lesser time than othcrs, so it would be difficult to single out twhoe
have been there for 60 years and make special provision for thern, and
those who came later to have a different scheme for them.
&Ir.G~oss: Did you consider, Sir, in the courseof your inquiry con-
cerning the Native education system in South West Africa, the popula-
tion patternsin terms of permanent residence versus migratory labour,
for esample, in certain ares?
hlr.VANZYL: Yes,me did, hIr. President,
Mr. GROSS: Now, with respect to those persons which the Odendaal
Commission report refersto assettled communities and which Mr. Logan
referred to as domiciled,did you, in the course of your enquiries con-
cerning the educational system, ascertain the approximate numbers of
persons who had been there al1their lives, let us say?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, we did, hlr. President.
Mr. GROSS C:an you give the Court an approximation of the number
in the urban areas?
Mr. VAN ZYL: If remember well, Rlr. President,1worked it out once
and it came to about 60,000 out of the total population.
hIr.G~oss:Had been born in the urban sector?
Rlr.VAN ZYL: 1would not be able to Say whether they were actually
born there, but they were settled therand they found employment, of
course, in inany different urban centres taken together.
Mr. GROSS There are, however, according to your inquiries, a certain
number of persons in this category, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
hlr.GROSS : nd did you also ascertain whether or not there had been
a succession oftwo or more generations of Native inhabitants in that
area?
hlr.VANZYL: NO,we did not, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSS D:o you regard that as a relevantquestion in conneetion
with the education tradition which you were examining?
&Ir.VANZYL: Mr. I'resident, no. We took these people who had settled
in urban areas at the time still to be part and parce1 of their respective
national groups pertaining to different homelands. We were informed,
for instance, that the Wereros stayininurban centres have al1retained
their connectionswith their homelands and their national groups in the
Reserves.So we took al1the others still to have the affiliation with their
homelands and their national groups, irrespective of the fact that they
were living inhese urban areas.
Rlr.GROSS: Would it be a fair inference from that response thathe
education policy and system refiects that premise, or point of departure.
which you have just described?
hlr.VANZYL:1 did not get that ...
Mr. G~oss:Would it follow from your testimony thatthe educational
system wl~ich you recommended as a rcsult of your inquiries in 1958,
proceeds from the point of departure of considering the Native in the WITNESSES AND EXPERT5 311
urban areas as ... Ithink you used the expression ... L#at expression
did you use, Sir? You considered him what with respect to the homeland
or no rth.rii areas, did you say, "affiliated with", or some such ex-
pression ?
Mr. VANZYL: Affiliated-1 said, part and parcel, Mr. President.
Mr.G~oss: Part and parcel-that was the expression,I can remember.
In your rer:ornmendations with respect to the educational policies con-
cerning the Natives in the urban areas, you prciceeded from the point
of departure that they were part and parce1 of a territory or area outside
their place of permanent residence, is that correct, Sir?
Mr. VANZYL: More particularly of a special national group, Mr.
President .
Mr. GROSS :nd, Sir, with further reference tu the cornpulsory educa-
tion point which is in respect of the Territory of South West Africa, I
refer again to paragraph 1097, and the sentence following that which I
had previoiisly quoted, on page 261 :
"The Commission did, however, receive evidence from teachers
and others to the effect that cornpulsory education is essential, but
this is not yet the opinion of the populationingeneral."
Now with reference to that sentence, would you now state whether you
agree or disagree with the opinion of the teachers and others who have
testified beEorethe Commission that compulsory education is essential?
Mr. VAN ZYL: 1 would not know, Mr. President, why they claimed
that it was essential. It would have been better understood if they said it
was advisable-why essential,I could not tell-and 1 do not think 1
would agrel: with the teachers ifthat were their view.
Mr. GROÇS: NOW,secondly, Sir, with respect to the reference to the
statement that this is not yet the opinion of the population in general,
would you have any basis for judgment as to whi:ther or not the popula-
tion in geni:ral refers to the territory as a whole, or does it refer to, let
us Say, the southern sector outside the Reçerves as well?
VAN ZYL: 1 think it refers to the territory as a whole.
Mr. GROSS: One final Iine of questions, Mr. President, iI may, with
respect to thematter of teacher differential in salaries, which you covered
in your testimony yesterday. You have testified with respect to the
nurnber of teachers enrolled in the three teacher trainingschools in the
Territory, if I understood you correctly, that the number is not adequate
to meet the projected needs in accordance with your calculations. That
is a correct version of your testimony, Sir?
hlr. VAN ZYL: Yes.
Mr. G~oss: Atnong the reasons for the inadequate (in that sense)
enrolment in teacher training, would you, Sir, express an opinion con-
cerning the discouraging effect,ifany, ofthe differential between salaries
paid to White and Native teachers, respectively?
Mr. VAN ZYL: NO. As 1 indicated in my main evidence yesterday,
there is no reasotl to believe that the teachers are dissatisfied with the
existing differentiation between salariespayable to Whites and salarles
paid to Bantu. They al1clamour for higher salaries, but so far we have
not come across any complaint that there is this differentiation.
Mr. GROSS:In connection with this response--first, however, may 1
citefor the record here, £rom the Rejoinder; I do not have the citation,
so 1willnot cite i;1 wilI,however, refer in connection with your response312 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
to the paragraph on page 43 of the Rejoinder (II), if you can find it, in
which the following statement is quoted-this is a further quotationby
the Respondent from a staternent by Dr. Verwoerd:
"Thinlly, the Rantu teacher rnust be utilized asan active factor
in this process of developrnent of the Bantu community to serve hiç
community atid build it up and learnnot to fi:elabove his community
so thathe warits to become integrated into tlie life of the European
comrnunity and becomes frustrated and rebellious when this does
not happen and he tries to make his community dissatisfied because
of suc1injsdjrected and alien ambitions."
Have you in your esperience encountered teachers who you regarded as
frustrated and rebellious because they could not become integrated into
the lifeof theEuropean cornmunity?
bIr. VANZYI.: 1 think this should be taken to mean that it might be
possible for'a situation Likethis to ariUp. to the present moment 1 do
not know of any situation of this kind that exists.
The PKESIUENT:Ekcept by them speaking to you, how wouId you
know whether they were frustrated or rebellious, by their conduct-have
you ever noticed any frustration in terms ofconduct or rebellious attitude
towards their position and the Whites?
hfr. VANZYL: Not among the teachers, hlr. Prcsident.
BIr.GROÇÇ:U'ould pu agree or disagree with tlie characterizatioof
the desire ofa Native teacher to become integrated into the life of the
European comrnunity as ail "alien ambitionu-would you agree with
that formulation of his aspiration, his ambition?
>Ir.VANLYL: Yes, 1 think that can be accepted as a possibility.
Mr. CROSS : ith regard to your testimony concerning principals-
there arc Native principals of Native schoo1s, are there, and White
principals of White schooIs? Can you state to the Court whether there
is a differential in salaries paid to Ilhite and Native principals respec-
tively, doing the same work?
$Ir. VAN ZYL: 1 thought it was generally known that the Imites are
paid more than thc Uantu teachers; it also applies to the principals.
IlIr.GROSS: Collld y011explain to the Court why such a differential
exists in the case of principals?
Mr. VANZYL: 1 should say that the principal's allowance, if it is a
principal'snllow;ince,has a bearing on the basic salary which he gets.
If a teacher getça comparatively lower basic salary he would also get .a
principal's allowance which is in a reasonable relation to that baslc
salary ;if the salary is higlier, then the principal's allowance automatically
becomes higher.
hlr. G~oss: So that the principal's salar~rdifferential is a reflection or
consequence, is it, of the difierential of salary at the teacher's level, is
that correct?
Mr. v.4;ZYL :Yes.
BIr.GHOSS: And therefore that differential rernains. if aoconstant
factor, at least a factoring the career of the iV11iteand Native teachers
respectively, is that so?
&Ir.VAN ZYL: iresOf course, me never think of comparing the position
of Bantu teachcrs with the position of White teachers because, as1have
indicated before, theBantu have a lower standard of living, and econom-
ically they have not advanced as far as the Whites; but this is not a WITNESSES AND EXPERT5 3I3
static position-we firmly believe that ultirnately there will be no
differentiation, depending on the progress whicli the Bantu make.
Mr. GROSS:You regard the differential, therefore, if 1 understand you
correctly, as unfortunate; in principle would you regard the differential
as afair or as an undesirable phenornenon?
The PRESIDENT I: wliat respect?
&Ir.GROSS :n any respect, Sir, relevant to . . .
The PRISSIDEN Tn:any respect whatever, then.
&Ir.GROSS :n any respect whatever.
Mr. VAN ZYL: 1 would not consider it as undesirable and bad, in
principle.
hlr.GROSSR : utnevertheless you stated the objective would be to
elirniilate it, is t507
i\IrVANZYL: Well, depending on the economic development of the
Bantu teacher.
&Ir.GKCPS Shat is what 1 understood you to mean. Now, 1 presume,
would it not be fair to Saythat if the objective, depending on the econom-
ic development, is to eliminate it, that wouId bear upon the question of
whether it is a fair or just discrimination or differentiation, in principle?
Alr.VANZYL:No,1 cannot see any unfairness in iat this stage.
hlr. GRCIS S:r the sake of the record at this point, 1would placc into
the record,if Imay, the undisputed figures from the Reply at IV,page
395,whicli is as follows:
"The commencing salary of a married male 'European' teacher in
the lowest category, including a special allowance, isR1,406. The
comm.encing salary of a married male 'Xative' teacher with com-
parable qualifications, together with his cost-of-living allowance, is
R696."
First, do you know whether the cost-of-living allowance in the case of
the Native anclthe special allowance in the case of the White is acorn-
parable figure?
Mr. VANZYL:1 am a bit uncertain as to what the position in South
West Africa was but, of course, ai the present moment these cost-of-
living allowances no longer exist; it has been ai~olishedin the Republic,
and I tiiink alsinSouth West Africa; but at that timc at certain levels,
at the top level, it wasexactly the same for Wliitesand non-Whites.
Mr. GROSS :he allowance?
Air. VANLYL: The cost-of-living ailomance.
hlr.GROSS T:hat is Ourunderstanding asiveli. Tliereforwith respect
to the salary, the discrepancy would be of the order of the ratio estab-
lished by the figure 1,406 to 696-that is something more than 50 per
cent., is it not? any event, 1will not tas you-my mathematical rnind
does not work that far. But the differentiis asubstantial one, of course,
isit not,you would agree?
Mr. VAP;ZYL: Yes, but there are also other economic factors that one
has to take into account. 1would not like to repeat too often thefact that
the Bantu teacher ha a much lower standard of living which he has to
finance, biit it mighbe enlightening io tell the Court that, for instance
as far as housing is concerned, a Bantu teacher living in the Bantu resi-
dential area of Windhoek would get an apartment consisting of the
normal threc or four roorns-kitchen, bathroom, with water on the tap,
with al1 electricity laid on-forsornething Like 6 rand a month, while314 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
the White teacher who lives in the White area of the same town has to
pay ten times as much for his apartment of perhaps lesseraccornrnoda-
tion.
&Ir.GROSS:So that the sdary differential reflects the difference in the
economic environment-that would be correct?
Mr. VAN ZYL: That is right.
BIr.GHOSS: With respect tothe system described as "separate develop-
ment" in your testimony and in the record, are there any White teachers
teaching in non-White schools?
Air. VANZYL: Yes.
Mr. G~oss: Are there any non-White teachers teaching in White
schools?
Mr. VAKZYL: NO.
Mr. G~oss: From your experience in the Territory, and on the basis
of your inquiry, would pou state whether or not there are non-White
teachers who have the qualifications and competence to teach anywhere
in the Territory at commensurate level-at a level, that is to Say,com-
mensurate with that of a White teacher doing the same work?
&Ir.VANZYL:1 cannot think 1 cari-deny that ; there might be teachers
who would be suitable to teach in Jlihite schoo~s.
Mr. GROSS:1s the reason why no non-White teachers teach in White
scl~oolsamatter ofpolicy, of apartheid or separate development-is that
the sole reason for this phenornenon?
Mr.VAN ZYL:1 would like to give the main reason for that. and that
isthat the Bantu teacher, withhis good qualifications, is needed fthe
upliftment of his own people; his services are not necessary in a White
school, where we have got an adequately qualihed White stafftocarry
on with the work; and this is also what the Prime Minister has referred
to when he said that educated Bantu should not think that they should
offer their servicein aWhite community; by implication it means that
the good services of an adequately trained Bantu teacher or technician
would virtually be wasted in White society, because his servicearenot
really needed, whereas his services are very badly needed in his own
homelands and for the upliftment of a backward people.
Mr. G~oss: Jiould you say that in the southern sector-this will be
my final question,Mr. President, if may-outside the Reserves there is
a perfect balance between the supply of White teachers available and
the requirements of White education in that sector?
Mr. VANZYL: 1 would not be able to Say whether the teachers are al1
recruited from the Territory itself, buif thereshould be a shortage of
White teachers it inot a difficult matter to secure their services from the
Republic; many of them are prepared to go there and teach.
hlr. EROSS:SOthat w-ouldit be fair to Say, in conclusion, that with
respect to both White and non-IVhite teachers in the Territory, thereis
a need for both-is that correct?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes.
Mr. GROSS: With respect to the education of both White and non-
White in the Territory?
Mr. VANLYL:Yeç.
Mr. GROSS:1 think, Sir, that conciudes my questions.
The PRESIDENTT : hatdoes not conclude your cross-examination, 1
assume, hlr. Gross, does it?
Mr. G~oss: 1 think 1 will rest there, Sir. WITNESSES AND EXPEItT9 315
The PRISSIDEN Ve:ry well, thank you.
hlr. GRCISST:hank you, Sir.
The PRISSIDEK DTo:es any Member-ofthe Court desire topua question
to the witriess(A Member of the Court having indicated his desire so to
do, the Prcsident continued.) Tken 1 am afraidwe will have to adjourn
at this particiilar stage; you belin attendance on hfonday aftcrnoon,
Doctor. Biit before we adjourn,MI. Gross, tkank you for your explana-
tion as to the relevance of your cross-examination in relation to compul-
sory education, but do 1 understand the proposition correctly when 1
state it thiis: there is compulsory education of the White peoplwhat
we cal1the White sector in the soiitliern zone?
hlr.G~ass: Yes, Sir.
The PRISSIDEN Th:ere is no cornpulsory education elsewhere. Do 1
understand that if there is no cornpulsory educstion imposed upon the
peoples, take for example of the north, irrespective of the difficulty of
policing it. irrespective of the question whether it is acceptable to the
people, irrespective of any other circumçtances, thatis inherently in-
consistent with Article2 of the Mandate and fierse a breach of the
Mandate?
hlr. G~oss: No, Sir, that would not be the Applicants' contention.The
Applicants' contentionin respect ofthe differerice, standard or require-
ment of cornpulsory education on a strictly racial basis would be that
that, standing alone, unsupported and unexplained, would violate the
duty to allot rights and burdens, privileges and so forth on the baofs
promotion of wclfare and progress of al1 the inhabitants to the fuliest
practicablr: e~tent,and that it would seern to the Applicants that a
system in which no cornpulsory education in any part of the Territory,
irrespective of its econornic development, is a practice arpolicy, that
this wouIdbe a factor relevant for the Court's consideration in connection
with the significance of the educational aspecofapartheid seen in rela-
tion to all other aspects of the apartheid policy of which this formsa
part.
The PRESIDENT: Well. then, we will come to tlie consideration in those
circurnstances whether that is consistent ~4th the case which you put
before the Court at the time you made your Final Subrnissions, hlr.Gross;
but we will not discuss it here now.
hlr. GROSSY : es, Sir.
The PRESIDEN Th:eCourt willadjourn.
hfr.GROSSM : ay 1Say,Sir, that I hope that there wbeanopportunity
to elaborate on the answer to this questioal some appropriate time?
The PRESIDENTB : y al1rneans.
[Public kearilsof4 Octobm19651
The PRESIDENT\:Vil1 YOU come to the podium, Doctor?
Sir Louis Mbanefo desires to ask certain questions of the witness. Sir
Louis?
Judge Sir Louis MUANEFO :he first questioi1 would like to ask is
West Africa?ntu Education Act, Has it actually beenapplied ta South
applied to South West Africa?ion is: has the Bantu Education Act been
&Ir.VAN ZYL: NO,Mr. President.316 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO You stated on page 259, supra, of the
verbatim record of 30 Scpternber that"since the passing of the Bantu
Education Act in Igj3, the Bantu have been given an active share in the
education of their children". Then you continued, in the nparagraph
but one :
"The ultimate aim is to enable Bantu groups to assume full
responsibility for their own educational service, as is already the
position in the Transkeitoday."
And further down you mentioned the advantages and finally you said
that:
"Now that the schools have bccorne part and parce1 of tBantu
community, and now that the parents have ashare intheir manage-
ment and take an active interest in what is going on, they urge their
children to go to school.."
In another part of your evidence you spoke of using the mother tongue
as a medium of instruction and said that the whole purpose was to get
the people interested in their ïiomelasothat they can go back to their
homelands and becorne useful to their cornrnunity. A1 nght in stating
that this was what you said in your evidence?
Mr. VANZYL: Afr. President, 1wouid not Say that the whole purpose
isto let the people go back to their hornelands. The idea is that as many
educated and skilled persons as possible should go back therto help
with the upliftment and developmeiit of the homeland, but others, who
find emplopment in the \Vhite homelands and who prefer tostay there
for the time being,1should say are, of course. free to do so.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO N:ow,ifyou look at the Odendaal report on
page 41, you will setable XIX and table XX. Have you got the page?
Mr. VANZYL:Yes, Mr. Yrcsident.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO N:ow, if you look at tableXIX you will
find that in the homeland of the Damaras-have you got that-the
northern homeland, you will find Sesfontein with 300 people.
The PRESTDENT T:at is in tablXX is it?
hlr. VAN ZYL:Mr. President, I do not know if 1am still with the
Judge. It is tablXIX?
Judge Sir Louis ~IBANEF :OYes.
hlr.VANZYL: And the Darnara people are concerned?
Judge Sir Louis XBASEFO:Yes.
hlr.VAN ZYL:Sesfontein?
Judge Sir Louis~IBANEFO Yes.
hlr. VASZYL: Sesfontein, yes. There are309. Yes, 3lr. President1
have got it.
Judge Sir Louis MBAKEFO Y ou will see that thcdo not exist any-
where else in the homeland. I have noasked my question yet, butI just
want to get the facts established.
Mr. VAN ZYL:Yes. Mr. President, itis not quite correct. There are
Damara homelarids in the southern secto...
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO 1:am coming to that. 1 am now talking
about table XIX.
Mr. VANZYL: Yes.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO :OW ~OU \vil1see that in the southern sector
you have 18,000Damaras in urban areas,18,499. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 3I7
The PRESIDEST:DO YOU see that?
Mr.V.w ZYL:1 have got it, Jlr. Presidcnt.
Judge Sir Louis ~IBANEFOA : nd in the rural areas20,260.
IIr.VASZTL: Yes, &Ir.President,1 have got that.
Judge SirLouis MBANEFON : OW,is the purpose of the new scheme to
educate these roughly 40,000 people so that they can go and be useful
in a commrinity different from where they live?
Mr. VANZYL: NO, Mr. President, that is what I was trying to point
out. The 309 people who are given under the heading Northern Home
Areas are iiot actually living in Damara Iiomeland. The Damara home-
lands are under the rural areas in the first section of the table under
"Southern Sector". Thcre are niany Rantu honielands in the southern
sector which we should not forget.
Judge Sir Louis MHANEFO:Yes. If pou corne to the southern sector
the total pt:ople living in the home area is roughly: Darnar3,624.
Mr. VANZYL: Mr. President, as1 see it, there a18,499 Damaras in
urban areas and 20,260 in rural :ireaand in home areas-is that what
the honourable Judge is referring to, thc 5,28j perhaps?
Judge Sir Louis MRANEFO W:hich table are you looking at?
The PRESIDENT Table XIX.
Judge Sir Louis R~BANEFO T:able XIX, yes. Now you have got your
rural and your urban areas in the southern sector?
IilrVAKZYL: Yes.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFOA : nd then you have the northern home-
lands-northern home areas?
blr. VA'JZYL: Yes, Mr. President.
Judge Sir Louis MBAKEFO: Now, as to the southern sector in table
XIX, if jrou want to deal mainly with the southareas,you would have
to relate ta the southern home area in tablXS, and if you look under
Damaras tfiere are 3,624.
The PRESIDEXT F:rstly, doyou agree with the learned Judge's state-
ment that you have to relate certain figures? Did you catch what Sir
Louis said?
hlr. VA?;ZYL: Not quite, Mr. President.
The PRESIDEST:Perhaps, Sir Louis, yoii will put that in the form of
a question, then the witness will understand it?
Judge Sir Louis M~ANEFO : want to get the facts established that is
why 1 am just reading frorn the table. If you look first of al1aXIXable
pou will see "Southern Sector-Urban area-Damara 18,499".
Rlr. V-4~ZYL: That isright, Mr.Prcsident.
Judge Sis Louis ~~BANEFO ":Rural area-Damara 20,260."
Mr. VANZYL: That is rigiit.
Judge Sir Louis MI~ANI<FO T:hose two figures add up to roughIy
39,000. Now, itispart of the purpose of thc educxtion scheme that these
people would be educated in their Native or rnother toiigue, and that the
curriculum and syllabus would be relatcd to their institutions.
Mr. VAN ZYL: MTouldthe Judge mcan, Mr. President, to theircultural
institutions?
Judge Sir Louis MHANEFOW : cll, 1 wilI read from your statement on
pages 258-259 s,pva, of the verbatim record of 30 September.
"Secondly, increaserl emphasiswas tobe placed on the education
of the Inasses, so as to enable them to CO-operatein the evolution of
new social patterns.318 SOUTHWEST AFRlC-4
Further, that schools should be linkeas closelyas possible with
esisting Bantu social institutions;and further, that active steps
should be taken to produce literature of a functional value in the
Uantu languages .. . and that schools should provide aomasimum
development of the Bantu individual, mentally, morally and
spiritually."
Mr. VANZYL: Yes, Mr. President,1 said that.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO 'Iheeducation of these 39,000 people would
be reorientated to the necds of their home areal
Rlr.VANZYL: To a certain extent, yes1 have to point out that in the
first instancehe children will get a generaleducatiforgeneral develop-
ment, and as from a certain stage they will have to start specializing in
different directionsand they will then be trained to iindertake certain
development schemes, mainly in thcir homelands, but they are still free
to offer their services outside the homelands if they care to do so; but
the idea is that as soonasthey are ready, and as soon as they are pre-
pared, they should take the acquired skills and knowledge back to their
homelands to assist with tlie development of those areas.
Judge sir Louis MBAXEFO T:hat is in respecofSesfontein-that will
be the place where 300 people live?
Mr.VANZYL: Yes. 1think we should not take Sesfontein verv seriously
as a homeland of the Damara people. It is not an area where they
norrnallylive, owhere they mostly live. That is just a small g~oup who
must have ernigrated there, and who live there now. 1 am not sure
whether with the new homelands which have been proposed by the
Odendaal Commission, Sesiontein will fall within the Damara horne-
land-1 have not gone intodetails,but 1would not be surpnsed if it falls
outside the new Damara homeland.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO A:nd the same, to a large extent, is true of
the Namas?
Mr. VANZYL: Itis also true of the Namas. The Narna, as we will see
from this table, live largely in the southern areas of the southern sector,
much more towards the south. Sesfontein should actually be taken just
as a small community which has settled there; it is not asthough they
occupy a vast area; it is jusa concentrated community.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO Co:uldYOU tell the Court how many Uantu
languages are officially recognized as media for instruction in South West
Africa?
hlr. VANZYL: The proposa1 was that six of the existing languages
should be recognized as school languages.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO A:nd are you ina position to tell the Court
how many people Yi the smallest of the language groups would use one
language?
Mr, VAXZYL:If 1 remember well, 1 think the Hereros would be the
smallest single language group. The Namas constitute the srnaIIest
national group of people, but then we have the position thaNamas and
Damaras both speak the same language; but the Hereros constitute the
smallest language group, i1 remember well.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO \i:hat would you give their population as?
Mr. VANZYL: The Hereros? 35,000.
The PRESIDEN T :shown at tableXTX, 35,354 in the southernsector?
That's the total?
Mr. VANZYL: That is nght. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 319
Judge Sirhuis MBAXEF O :d they have no other homelands outside
the southern sector?
Xr. VANSYL:No, they have no other homeland. Ofcourse, the Hereros
never lived in the northern areas; they are at present occupying their
traditional homeland, which hasbeen enlarged and which, I believe, \vil1
still be enlarged after the new recoinmendations othe Odendaal Com-
mission.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO A:nd in their home ;ireas they have 15,ooo?
Mr. VANZYL:In their home areas?
The PRESIDENT In: the southern sector.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO In: thwuthern sector-table XIX.
Alr. VANZYL:According to this table, yes.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO W :hat opportunity wouldthere be for an
educated person to find a living amongstacommunity of 15,000people,
ifa large niirnber of them get educated?
Rlr. VANZYL:1 think that there would be ampIe opportunity, if we
take into consideration thatacentre which is takento be a large urban
centre Iike Windhoek itself has a population not much bigger than
35,ooo. including al1 population groups, and 1 think everybody would
agree that inJf'indhoek, for instance, there are numerous opportunities
for people tomake a living and to contributetowards thewelfareof that
centre.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO T:hen you would not be talking abouthim
going back to develop his institutions in his home area?
Air.VAN ZYL: Yes, but I was trying to point orit that an area whish
in itselgeûgraphically, a very vast area occupieby a potential popula-
tion of 35.0~w1ould need the services of many people to develop it to the
fullest.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFOO : f the 35,000, 9,000 live in urban areas,
you Say?
Mr. VANZYL:At the present moment, yes.
Rlr.eVANZYL:Yes.R~BANEFA On:d xo,oooin rural areas?
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO A:nd the remainirig 15,000 in the home
areas?
Mr. VAN ZYL:Yes.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO A:nd I take it that théseaieas arescattered
over a largearea?
Mr.VANZYL:1would not say the homeland consistç ofvarious areas
scatteredover a much Iargerarea; it is one big consolidated area, ifd
there are smaller Reserves not consolidated into the main homeland of
the Hereros, itwillmon be done.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO: Yes,but within that consolidated piece of
land you probably have about ~oo Settlementsor villages?
Mr. VANZYL:1would not Say as many as that, but there could be a
fair number.
Judge Sir Louis ~IBANEFO 50:?
Mr. VANZYL: 50,or perhaps less.
Judge Sir Louis BIBASËFO:And you have got 15,000 people spread
over 50 villages?
hfr.VAN ZYL: Yes, it couldbe; of course, they would nobe aUof the
same size, there wouldbe bigger centres and smaller centres.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFY Oe:s, but they couldn't be much if the total320 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
poprilatjon j15,ooo.What 1 am getting ai, and 1 am gojng to lead on
to it later on in my questioning, is: these educated people are people who
are being educatedso that they can go back and help their peopl1juçt
want to get an idea of what soofhelp they can give to their community.
Mr. VAN ZYL: In the first instance they can go there as teachers; they
can go there as artisans, to erect buildings which may be needed for
public services; they cnngo there as agricultural instructors; they can
go therc as doctors, even, when the time comes; girls can go there as
nurses; they can go there as merchants.
Judge Sir Louis ~IBANEFO You can't be much of a merchant in a
com.munity of 15,000people.
1he PREÇIDENT :sthat a question or iit açtatement?
Judge Sir Louis RIBANEFO One wants to get the impression, because
we have had statements of opportunities being opened for thern in their
home areas, and one wants to get clear in one's mind the type of op-
portunity that they have.
;\Ir. VANZYL:I would not like to argue the point, butif 1 have to
give my opinion Ishould say that there wiil ultimatel~t be big concen-
trations of people and the othcrs may be scattered over the whole of the
homeland as farmers living apart on separate farms or in very small
cornmunities, and these very small cornmunities wi11have to be served
from the bigger centres that will be establianddthat will grow in the
homeland.
Judge Sir Louis RIBANEFO :ntil then, of course, there \vbe1very
littlc or no opportunity?
MT. VAN ZYI,:NO, the opportunities will be there right from the be-
ginning-not for al1 typesof people, butrightfrom the beginning there
wlllbe certain opportunitiesand as the development will gain in mo-
mentum there will be more and more opportunities.
Judge Sir Louis &IB,~XEFO Y:ou said that the people are being taught
through the medium of their mother tongue, and in respect of South
West Africa up to StandardII,and in thenorthuptoStandard 111;and I
believe you said that it has been recommended to raise it to StandardVI?
Mr. VANZYL: Yes.
Judge Sir Louis~IBANEFO C:uld you tell us what subjects aretaught
in the Native languagesinprirnary schools?
hlr.VANZYL:III South \\lest Africa only?
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO 1will deal with South West Africa.
Mr. VAN ZYL: The usual subjects on the curriculum of the primary
school, and they include arithmetic, environment studies in the lower
primary school, nature study, health education; of course, then there
are the three languages that have to be taughT;think those are about
al1 the subjects.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO And with respect, for instance, to arith-
metic: do you take thern up to things like, for instance, compound
interest ?
>Ir.VAN ZYL: Not in South West Africa, because compound interest
only cornes into the picture towards the Fourth or Fifth Standard, not
inthe lower primary school iipto Standard II.
Judge Sir LouisBIRANEF Of:ou took it upto Standard VI, OU would
then have to instruct them through that medium, wouldn't you?
hlr.VANZYL: That is rightIthas been done in the Republic of South
Africa,uy to Standard VI. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 321
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO 1: notice you said that you had in fact taken
a Standard VI examination in Bantu languages in South Africa?
Mr. VANZYL :Yes, Mr. President inthe Republic of SouthAfrica.
Judge Sir LouisMBA'JEFO N:w when you get to the complicated level
of arithmetic for instance-what do you do?
Mr. VANZYL:Xr. President, we have managed to overcome whatever
problems tliere were. As1have poiilted out before, the majority of the
terrns thatwe need for the primary school were already in existence in
these Bantii languages and those words which were lacking were made-
we formed them. I think it happens in any language which has to
develop ancl which has to be adapted to new needs and requirements and
perhaps 1 should mention, hlr. President, in the Republic of South
Africa, we already have severalserieof graded arithmetic books in al1
our Bantu 1.anguagesand in those books al1 the necessary tenns appear
because they cover al1the standardsof the primary school1 can testify
ttiat the system works well.
Judge Sir Louis MBAKEFOY : ou said 1believe, on the subject, that
primary education only makes them fit to worlç as labourers, nothing
more than labourers?
Mr. VANZYL: 1 think so, hlr. President.
Judge Sir Louis MKANEEOA : nd in that case, there \vil1be no need for
maintaining a high level or i~nproving this standard.
&Ir.VANZYL: NOW,it should be understood, &Ir.President, that after
the Standard VI levelwe use English or Afrikaans as the medium of
instruction. So for more advanced education,wi:do not use the Bantu
languages a.smedium at the present time.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFON : ow, in South West Africthe educational
faciiities that exist for the Nativeupito Standard X.
Mr. VANZYL: That is right, Mr. President.
Judge Sir Louis MBAXEFO,:4nd that is the lewl at which they matric-
ulate?
Mr.VANZYL: That is when they matriculate, yes.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO A:nd 1gather thatat that level you Say that
they take the same cxamination as Imite pupils?
Mr. VAN ZYL: It is SO,Mr. President.
-
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO: But that papers are separately marked?
Mr. Vax ZYL: I pointed out on the firday in my main evidence that
there are two exarniningbodieswhich conduct the examination for Bantu
pupils; there is the Joint Matriculation Board itself, which also serves as
a controlling body and conducts an examination of its own-candidates
who write that examination are thrown inwith al1the other candidates
and the papers are marked by the same examiners and moderated by the
same moderators. 1 should also say that those who write the examination
under the llepartment of Education, Arts and Science, are treated in
the same w;iy-the same examiners for laites and non-laites and the
same moderators.
Judge Sir Louis MRANEF O :uld you tell us roughly about how many
people in the last five years-yocan take any yearin the lasfiveyears
or you can take the whole five years together-have gone through
Standard X in South West Africa?
Mr. VAN SYL: 1 am not certain about the figure, Mr. President, but it
is a very low figure.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEF :As low as itwould be .. ?322 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Nr. VAX ZYL: It would be extremely dificult to Say, but I would not
Say more than 20 passed the matriculation examination during the past
five years.
judge Sir Louiç B~BANE FAOreyou in a position to tell the Court what
the 20 people, who passed the matriculation, did after that?
Mr. VAN ZYL:NO, 1 cannot, Mr. President. 1 know ofa fcw.1 know
that there are two or three studying for the degree at the University
College of the North aiid 1 know that there aaefew teaching in South
Weçt Africa and there may be a few clerks serving in some or other
public office. Of caurse, altogether thermay be many more than
20 matriculated Bantu peopleinSouth West Africa,but thejrcouldhave
matriculated before the period mentioned by the honourable Judge.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO: 1 appreciate that it is not your problem to
speak about higher education, I was going to ask about how many have
had higher education but perhaps you would get that for me later.
hlr.VAN ZPL:1 think that would be best.
Judge Sir Louiç MBANEFO Na:w, you said in answer to the question
that if there is any sizable minority needing instruction and living in a
remote area arrangements couldbe made for them to receive instructions
in their own language.
hlr. VANZYL: 1 did, yeshlr.President.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO T:hey svould be either given a çeparate
school or they would be taught in separate claçinsan existing school?
Mr. VANZYL:That is right, Mr. President.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEF :HOWmany people doyou normaiiy envisage
to qualify for startiagcommunity school?
Mr. VAN ZYL: From what 1 have been told, Mr. Preçident, in South
West Afnca, they are prepared in some ofthese remote areasto start a
school with 15puyils.
The PRESIDENF Tfteen?
Mr. VAN ZYL:Fifteen.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO A:nd taken up to Standard VI if they
continue?
Mr. VAN ZYL: No, 1would not Say that, 1think they would take them
up to Standard II perhaps or a little further depending upon the ability
of the teacher but once they reach the higher classes ofthe higher primary
is made for hostel facilities.taken to central schools,where provision
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO W:ould you think that accounts for the
large drop off from StandardII in the number of pupils who continue at
school?
Mr. VANZYL:Yes, Mr. President, 1 think it can be ascribed to that
to a certain extent but 1 should Say there are other more important
reasons for the sharp drop after the Standard II level.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO 1:elieve the important reasons you gave
were that the parents had not appreciated the need of compelling the
children to continue at çchool?
Mr. VANZYL:That was rny impression, &Ir.President.
Judge Sir LouisBAKEFO A:nd that is being taken care of, as you say,
by forming community schools?
hIr. VANZYL:Yes, hlr.President.
Judge Sir Louiç MBANEFO W :ould you explain more what you meant
by community schoolç-does it mean that schools that are mn by WITNESSES AND EXI'ERTS 323
missions are takenover by the comrnunity or what-could you telus
exactly what?
Mr. VABZYL:Well, in the first place, hlr. President, a community
school could be described as a school managed 11ya local parental com-
mittee, and which for further administration conles under a schooIboard
which assiimes responsibility for the administration of a number of
schools in a particiilar area where common interests result in their
forming a unitor where they geographically forma unit, but mainly a
community school is a school which belongs to the parental comrnunity,
the local parental community, anda school for which that community
assumes local responsibility.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO: Just a point of information on existing
miMr.oVAP;ZYL: Yes, Mr. President. Thc missions were not compelledty?
to .band over their schooIsThe system which was introduced in the
Republic was also offered in South West Africa and the missions were
asked to siirrender control the schools which they had established so
that they could become community schools, and the missionary bodies
which were prepared todo so did hand over their schools and they were
subsequently made community schools; others have kept them and they
are still receiving full State subsidy but 1believe they will reach a point
~vherethey will have to choose between running these schools at their
own cost cirhanding them over for the purposcs of making them com-
munit y schools.
Judge Sir Louis RIBANEF These mission schools are run by Native
headmasters and teachers?
Alr.VAK ZYL: Yes,Mr. President, provisionally.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO :nd the parents, most of whom 1 assume
would be uneducated-illiterate?
Air. VAN ZYL: There rnay be some uneducated parents, others may
have little education and admittedly much less than the teachers.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEF OAnd you said that they regard these schools
run by Native headmasters, Native mastersas foreign schools?
honourable Judge refer to mission schoolçent. The schools or does the
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO: Mission schools, yes. I wili'repeat my
question-mission schools run by Native headmasters and staffed by
Native teachers.
Mr. VANZYL:Yes, Mr. President, that is the impression that we got.
They do not consider the schools their schools, they belong to the
missionary bodies.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO : nd if 1understand you correctly, the fact
that they form these community schools, makes the people feei that the
schools belong to them and that encourages the parents to encourage
their children to remain at school.
Air. VANZYL: Well, 1 would not say to encourage the children, but
to compel them to go to school and also to rnake it possible for the
children to remain at school for a considerable period.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO:DO~ tSat mean that the parents havenot
yet appreciated the value of education?
Mr. VAN ZYL: 1 would not Say that they have not appreciated the
value of eilucation but seeing that it was riot a service that they them-
selvesprovided and for which they had to assume responsibility, they324 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
did not take it very senously; they adrnireda child who wanted to go
to school and who remained at schooI for a long time and who proceeded
nicely wvithhis lessons, buif the child cared to leave the school they
seldom insisted on his staying on for a longer period, because in most
cases, it involved a certain amount of espençe for the parents and some
of them gladly withdrew the child or allowed the çhild to leave school
so as to save the money which he othenvise would have had to pay.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO Ifa parent knobvsthat if hison continues
at school he \vil1be better equipped farbetter position andhigher pay
in the future, dou not think that will makehimkcep thechild at school?
hlr.VANZYL: Certainly, yes, hlr. Yresident.
Judge Sir Louis RIBAXEFO M:ore than the fact that hewas made a
member of the school board?
Mr. VAN ZYL: Yes. hlr. President,I should point out that al1 the
parents are not serving on the school committees or on school boards.
There are many who do not serve on those bodies, but those bodies are
representative of al1the parents and there iç a common feeling of interest
in the school in the whole community and they work together for the
advancement of that school and forthe betterincnt of the position of
their children. It is better now. Forrnerly, they did not take as much
interest and they did not seem to realize the benefits to which the
honourable Judge has just referred.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO :OUsaid that the purpose of primary
education isto acquice literacy?
Mr. VANZYL: The purpose of the lower prirnary course is, in the first
instance, to acquire literacy,. President.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO A:nd that leads you on to the.. .?
Mr. VANZYL: The higher primary course.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO A:nd education really becomes purposeful
at the higher level than the primary level?
hlr.VANZYL: hlr. Preçident1 would not Say that the Iower primary
education is not purposeful.Italso serves a very good purpose.1 think
1have pointed out-last tirne,when 1 gave evidence-that the fact that
they become literate is of very great importance for them, for one reason
uphich 1 gave, is that they can conduct their own correspondence and
they can read their Bible and other suitable literature anby reading,
of course, they can expand their knowledge and their education virtually
on apnvate basis.
Judge Sir Louis MBAXEFO A:nother thing 1 would like to ask OU,
Dr. Van Zyl, do you have the experience of the phenornenon of boys
educated up to Standard VI and beyond not wanting to be Iabourers?
Mr. VANZYL: 1 woulcl not sây that 1 know of individuals, AIr. Presi-
dent, and Iwould not know exactly what the position is in South West
Africa, but in the Republic-ithat could be taken as an example-many
ofthose who reached the Standard VI lcvel will still become labourers.
Judge Sir Louiç MBANEFO 1 know, but they do not like it.
hlr.VAN ZYL: NO, they will still become labourers because they aTe
not equipped for anything else. They can become messengers in offices
and, indeed, many of them do become messengers, but they cannot
become clerks, hir. President, or be employed in any other posts where
considerable education or ski11is required.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO I:this respect, have you any knowledge of
other African territories where you have a similar situation? IVITNESSES AND EXPERTS 325
Mr.VAN ZYL:Similar education, Mr. President?
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO S:imilar, yes, where people are educated up
to prirnary school level.
The PRESIDENTD : OYOU have any personal knowledge of other African
countries with educational probIems ...?
hir.VAN ZYL: Yes. 1 happen to know sornethiiig of the Rhodesias, the
former Federation of Khodesia and Nyasaland.
Judge SirLouis MBANEFO D:O YOU know, for instance, that in many
places clerks are recruited from StandarVI?
Mr.VAN ZYL:Mr. President, 1did not know that, but 1would not be
surpsised that in certain underdeveloped parts of Africa people with as
little education asthatare employed as clerks, but in South Africit is
not necessary because there are a great many who have advanced beyond
that stage.In the Kepublic, for instance, there will be 12,000 candidates
writing the junior certificate examination this year and about 7,000 or
8,000 willpass the examination, and if clerks are needed they will be
recruited fsom amongst that group, or even those who pass the mcttric-
ulation examination. There will probabIy be about 800 passing the
matricuIation examination this year. There will be others offering even
higher edueation, and those who have StandardVI have not got a chance
against these people.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO W:ould thatbe the position in South West
Africa?
&Ir.VAN ZYL: The position would be more or less the same in
South West Africa, although the nurnbers are, of course,comparatively
smaller.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO Lastly, I want to ask you, how many
secondary schools, or how many schooIs, go up to Standard X in South
West Africa, 1 mean schools for Natives?
Mr. VAN ZYL: At the prcsent time, Mr. President, theris only one,
which goes as far as Standard X and 1believe steps are heing taken to
offer the matriculation courses also at other centres, but for the present
people are recruited from al1 over the Territory to this one centre.
Mr. President, of course, we should not lose sight of the fact that the
total population of that vast country is just ovcr half-a-million and, so
far, it did not seem necessary to have more thar~ one centre, because al1
those who wanted the secondary education could have gone there; their
facilities were adequate.
The PRESIDENT :oes any other Mernber of the Court desire to pua
question tcithewitness?
I onIy have oiie question to put to you, Doctor. In the examinations
-the matriculant standard-is there any reason to believe that if
a non-White candidate iç competent and answers his papers correctly
he is down-graded because of his race?
hlr. VAA- ZYL: NO, it is not possible, Mr. I'resident, because their
names do not appear on their examination papers. the^ write under
numbers. So the examiner will, for al1 practical purposes, not know
whether a candidate is White or non-White.
The PREÇIDENT:That is al1 1wanted to ask you, Doctor. Mr. Rabie,
do you wish to put any questions in re-examination?
Mr. RABIE:1 have no re-examination, Rlr. President and, with your
leave, the :Reçpondent's next witness wibe Professor Rautenbach. He
will be led by my learned friend, hlr. Grosskopf.326 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
The PRESIDENT D:octor, you are released there from further attend-
ance. 1sthere any objection fromhlr,Gross?
Mr. G~oss: No, Sir.
The PRESIDENTY : OUwill be released from further attendanceSir.
Mr. Rabie, wili you cal1your next witness?
Mr. GROSSKOPFM : ay it please the Court, Mr. President, Professor
Rautenbach is the next witness. His evidence relates to Applicants'
Submissions 3 and 4and as set out in aletter to the Agent forApplicants,
of which a copy has been sent to theputy-Registrar on30 September.
Professor Rautenbach's evidence will be directed to the followingpoints,
and 1 quote, he will testify on "higher education, and the consequences
of applying a policy involving an absence of separation in the said
sphere". He will also make "a comparison between policies regarding
higher education in South Africa and recent trends elsewhere". May 1
ask, Mr. President, that Professor Rautenbach be allowed to make both
the declarations provided for in the rules, that is, both as witness and as
expert.
The PRESIDENTL : et the witness make the declarations.
Mr. RAUTENBACH I: my capacity as a witness, 1 salemnly declare
upon my own conscience that 1will speak the truth,the whole truthand
nothing but thetruth. In my capacityasan expert, I solemnly declare
upon my honour and conscience that my statement will be in accordance
with my sincere belief.
Mr. GROSÇKOP :FProfessor Rautenbach,? your full names are Caspar
Hendrik Rautenbach?
Mr. RAUTENBACH: That is so.
Mr. GROSSKOPF Y:ou hold the following degrees: the degree of B.A.,
which you attained in 1921. 1sthat correct?
MT.RAUTENBACH T:hat is correct.
Mr. GROSSKOPF B:.D., in 1gz3?-
Mr. RAVTENBACH T:hat is correct-iNoveniber 1923.
Mr. GROSSKOPF M: .A., also in 1923?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Ju:ly1923.
Mr. GROSSKOPF T:hen you holda Doctoratein Phlosophy, which you
attainedat Victoria i1932?
Mr. RAUTENBA CTHhat is correct.
Mr. GROSSKOPF A:nd you have an Honorary Doctorate of the Univer-
sity of Montreal? .
Mr. RAUTEKBACH Y:es. 1received that in 1958.
Mr. GROSSKOPF W: hat is youpresentoccupation?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H:y present occupation-my major office-is that
'of Rector and Vice-Chancellor of the University of Pretoria, and outside
of that another officewhic1 hoM is that of Chairman of the National
Adviçory Education Councilof the Republic ofSoutAfrica,and another
office1hold is that of Chairman of the Council for the Governing Body
of the University Collegeof the North.
Mr. GROSSKOPB F:fore wego over to that Professowillyou tell the
of instruction? about the University of Pretoria? What is its medium
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:he medium of instruction of the University of
Pretoria is Afrikaans. It has been that s1932.
Mr. GROSSKOPF :nd what isthe size of the University?
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:he number of students now is 10,200,and the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 327
staff (the ïvhole staff, including administrative staff) is ju1,000,r
with close on 700 members of teaching staff,117 departments and 11
faculties.
Alr.GROSSKOPF I~:OWlong have you been on the staff of the University
of Pretoria?
Mr. RAUTENBACH: hly first appointment was in August 1923-that
means, 42years.
Mr. GROSSKOPF A:nd what was the nature of that appointment?
Mr, RAUTENEAC1 Hw:as appointed a part-time lecturer in pIiilosophy
in 1923and froni 1924onwards 1 had a fdl-time appointment.
Mr. GROSSKOPF A:nd what otliérofficesdid you hold on the academic
stafff the University?
Mr. RAUTEWBACO Hn: the academic staff of the Universit1became
Professorof Moral Philosophy and also Professor in the Faculty of
Education, for philosophy of education, and also lecturer in the Faculty
of Divinity on Christian Ethics. Later on,became Dean of the Faculty
of Arts and after that 1 was appointed, on 9 Apnl 1948,to my resent
officeof Principal,or Rector, as the Afrikaans name is-the 01a Latin
name-and Vice-Chancellorof the same University.
University of South Africa? you also a member of the Council of the
Mr.RAUTENBAC1 Hh:ave been a member of the Councilofthe Univer-
sity of South Africa-1 was a member for a nu~nberof years but under
the Act I'can send an Alternate and for the last two years 1 have been
sending an Alternate, but 1was a member for about 12 to 14 years.
Mr. GROSSKOPF : ill you just tell the Court bnefiy-you will be
coming to it later-what exactly the University of South Africa is?
Mr. RA~JTENBACT Hh:e University of South Africa is an examining
and degrel:-granting University in the Grst place, but in the middle
forties, the division for teaching by medium of the post or by corre-
spondence was instituted and that has now becomethe so-calleddivision
of teaching. It is also the university in which al1the students of theState
colleges are registered, because that at the present moment is the
University which is their degree-granting institution.
Mr. GROSSKOPF Y:ou have also told the Court that you are the Chair-
man ofthe Council ofthe University Collegeof the North. 'CVilou just
tell the Court brieflv what that co1-eg.eis? Yoii will aIso be coming to
that later.
Mr. ~~~TENBACHT :he University College of the North is one of five
State colleges established undethe Act of 1959. It opened its doorin
early Mart:h 1960. It is the University College which, according to the
decision of the Minister of Bantu Education, is the college for the Sotho-
speaking communities, also the smaller Venda and Tsonga groups. It is
situated 180miles north of Pretoria, where1 reside, it is 18 miles from
PiMr.rsGROSSKOPFis :ure you alsoabomember of certain inter-university
associations, such as the Statutory Committee of Principals?
Mr. RAUTENBACY He:s, by the Act 1 have got be a member of the
Comrnittee of Principals. I was its first elected chairman in the early
fifties and.. ,
Mr. GROSSKOPF :.. and were you a member of the Executive
Cornmittet: of the Association of Universities of the British Common-
wealth?3~8 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es,1 was a member of the Executive Committee
of the Association of Universities of the British Commonwealth, as it was
then called-it has since become Commonwealtli without the British-
forfiveyears.
hlr. GROSSKOPF A:re youa member of any scientific bodies?
Mr. RAUTENBACHY :es,I am a member of the Scientific Advisory
Council to the Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa. I have
been a member of the Council for Educational and Social Research since
1948 and çince19541 have been Chairman appointed by the Minister-of
Education, Art and Science of its General Purposes CornmittIeam also
a full member of the South African Academy of Artç and Science and
various other bodies.
Mr. GROSSKOPFN :OWdealing specifically with educational bodies, are
you a member of the National Advisory Council for Adult Education?
&Ir.RAUTENBAC YH:s,1 have been a member for many years. .
&Ir.GROSSKOPFA : re you Chairman of the National Advisory Educa-
tional Council?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hes,1 have been Chairrnan of the National Advisory
Educational Council since its inception 1963,
Mr. GROSSKOP F:hat are the functions of this Council?
Mr. RAUTENBACH :he functions of this Council are to advise the
hliriister of Education or, through him, other Ministeron the broad
general principles of education for the country asole-to CO-ordinate
education in the country as a whole in the sphere of pnmary and second-
ary education and tertiary education outside the university spheThe.
university sphere iç excluded from that Council.
hlr. GROSSKOPF A:re you also the Chairman of the National Committee
for the Co-ordination of Education of al1Race Groups with the Changing
Economy ?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es, that is aad hoc committee which was ap-
pointed after October1963 and it is stilI functioning and will çtill function
for some years.I am chairman of that committee also.
Mr. GROSSKOPFA :re you the author of any books or publications?
Mr. RAVTENBACH Y:es, 1 am the author of some books, one book on
moral philosophy and one on the epestimology of microphysics-of al1
things-and then 1am the author of about 35 articles on various aspects
of university-its organization, the organization of teaching, the func-
tions of the various bodies-faculty, executive committee of senate,
senate council-on the acceçsta higher educatiori, more orless the major
facets of the university asch. Outside of thatIwas also the author of
a pamphlet on the struggle for themother tongue.
Mr. GROSSKOPFN :OW,dealing specifically with South West Africa, do
you have any expert knowledge about circumstances in that Territory?
Mr. RAUTENEXCH As far as 1 could obtain knowledge from reading
and studying, 1 gained some knowledge of South West Africa.
Mr. GROSSKOPP D:O YOU have sufficient knowledge to express an
opinion as to whether it would be practical to start a university college
or university or someimilar institution in SouWest Africa?
The PRESIDENT: I donot think that is a question you can put to the
witness. He cannot answer to that, the Court rnust answeto that.The
witness gives evidence of his expert experience and the CoLthe judge
of his degree of expert knowledge.
Rlr. GROSSKOP Fs you please, Sir. WITIZEÇSES AXD EXPERTS 3=9
MT. RAUTENBAC MHust 1reply to the question?
The PRESIDENT N:O, the question he put in another iorm.
Mr. GRGS~KOF Do: you know what the pol~ulation of South West
Africa is?
hlr.RAUTENBAC YHe:, &Ir.President, it is just over half a million.
Mr. GROSSKOP DFoyou think that itwould bi: practical to establash
university institutioin that Temtory?
&Ir.RJ~UTEYBA CHe:, it is not practica1 at the present momenI
should thiiik, but it is a possibility in the futura certain stage of
development, 1hold that half a million people could have a university,
but at alaterstage of deveIopment, not at the present stage.
MT.GROSSKQP DF: YOU know what facilitieare provided for higlier
education ofstudents coming from the Territory?
BIr.RAUTENBAC F o:higher education of tjtudentcoming from the
Territory, as far asite students,or Euroyean students,are concerned,
they can corne to any university in the Republic itself because there is
no institutionfor highereducation ofthat type in the 'Temtory.As far
as other st:udents are concerned, they cari attend the various colleges
-5tate colleges-and theBantu in whom 1 am particularly interested
can, with thepermission of the Minister, enter one of the thrIethink
at the present moment that the blinister is inclined to send them to the
Bantu collegeofthe North.
Mr. GRC~ÇSKOPN FO: W,you have referred to various institutions for
higher learning in the Republic of South Aiilca; coyou givethe Court
a brief surnmary of the history of institutions for higher educatiin
South Africa?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hhe first significant Act was that of the British
Parliament in 3873 estabIishing the firçt university instituin South
Africa.Thritwas theold Universityof theCape of Good Hope. Itwas a
purely examining and degree-granting institutiori. Out of that brew
variouç universitics under the Act o1916.Undzr theAct of 1916,fully
Aedged universities emerged, thosof Stellenbosch and Cape Town and
the third federal universitof South Africa, which, at thatme, had, 1
think, seven constituent coiieges. Again, these constituent colleges, when
they came to m:~tirrity, became full-ftedged universities in turn and by
1953 ,ore or Iess, there had been eight fully fledged residential univer-
sities and the University of South Africa as a degree-granting and
examining body. That isasfar ashigher educationingeneralisconcerned
as regards the Whites.
In 1915, a start was made with the Native college at Fort Hare. It
actually opened itdoors on 3March 1916 and, as the narne signifies, the
word "Native" was used in those days, itmas a colIege which was
supposed to serve the Bantu. That college actually, that is in sections,
served both secondary and tertiary education. secondary and higlier
education.
In 1923, under the Act, it was declared to an institution for higher
education. In the middle thirties it droppethesecondary part and by
1936it only retainedthe universitpart. Now, this Collegealso prepared
students for the examinationsand degrees and diplornasof the Univer-
sity of South AfricaShall 1 carryon about the historyof this College?
Bir.GROSSKOP F:es, ipou pleaçe.
Mr. RAUTEKBAC The:College retained that status and in any case
special reli~tions emerged in the long run between that College and the33O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
University of South Africa, even as some iiniversities in Afrjca had
special relations with the University of London and still have up to the
resent moment. This remained up to 1951 when the Collegewas trans-
férredto Rhodes University, situated in Grahamstown, 60 miles away,
as aconstituent coilegepro tem,and under the Act of 1959 (a special act)
it was changed and became one of the three colleges for Bantu students
as from the beginning of1960. That is the history of the Native College
of Fort Hare.
Mr.GROSSKOJ PVFe:rethere any other universityinstitutions providing
higher education for Bantu students prior to 1959?
hlr.~UTEKBACH: Yes. Up to 1959 al1the universities in South Africa
were open universities, which means to Say that with the approval of
Council and subject to the applicant having the necessary entrance
qualifications, he or she could enter any one of the universities. There
hadalso beenestablishedapnvateinst oifautieositytypein the vici-
nity of Pretoria underthe name ofKolegeya Bana ha Afrika, whichrneans
Collegeof the Children of Africa. That private institution, of 1hwas
a supporter, prepared students for the examinationof theUniversity of
South Afnca and it was merged into the Bantu College of the North as
from IJanuary 1960.
Mr. GROSSKOP DFO:YOU know of any facilities specificaliy for medical
training?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es. In the early fiftiea medical school, or a
medical faculty, had been established as a facultof the University of
Natal and it was a closed faculty providing for the training of Indian,
Coloured and Bantu çtudents in medicine. itisstilalclosed faculty and
it isstill part of the University of Natal up to the present moment.
Mr. GROSSKOP FO:W,taking the position as at 1959, could you tell
the Court how many Bantu students were enrolled at these various in-
stitutions in that year?
Mr. RAUTENBACR In: 1959the exact number of 300.300 were enrolled
at the Universities of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, the University of
Cape Town and the University of Natal. 491 were enrolled in the Bantu
College at Fort Hare and a small number were enrolled in the private
institution called Kolege ya Bana ba Afrika.
Mr. GROSSKOP NFO:WP, rofessor Rautenbach, would you express pour
views as to the rnerits or demerits of the systern and the facilities of
university education for the Bantu as they existed prior to 1959? First
1 should like you to comment, if you will, on the extent of the facilities
available.
Mr. RAUTENBAC THhe:facilities availabas 1have already testified,
were the facilities of the open university, plus the Bantu Collegeat Fort
Rare, plus the University of South Africaon the purely academic side.
But outside of the Rantu College at Fort Hare there were, in 1959,few,
if any, residentialfacilities. In any case, if there were residential facilities
these were apart or separate. The state of affairs prior to 1959, or up to
.1959,was as follows: in the case of the Bantu College at Fort Hare the
student had a cornplete opportunity of being a student, there only being
the Universitiesaof Cape Town and Witwatersrand the classes weree case of
integrated classes, but outside of thas regardsafhletics, social amen-
ities, these were separate. The University of Natalhad its own arrange-
ment. This University had interna1 separation and had separate classes WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 33I
for its %te students, for its Bantu students and for its Indian and
Coloured students as a third group.
hlr. GROSSKOP TO:what extent would you sxy that the Bantu took
advantage of, or were admitted to,ose facilities?
Mr. RAU~ENBACT Hh:ey were admitted under certain limitations. In
the case of the University of Natal they were not admitted to the
Faculty ofScience and Mathematics becaustekere were too few places
other universities, they were admitted subject to certain limitations.
Now, in the case of the Mcdical Faculty, University of Natal again,
Bantu students were then and are still admitted on the basis of, firstly,
their matriculation result, their matriculationegate; secondly, the
points scored in mathematics; and thirdly in English, which is the
medium of instruction, and fourthly asresult of an interview to which
aii studentsare subjected. So that, subject to there being student places
or vacancies, there was a fairly wide range of admission prio1959.
The limitations were imposedin each case bythe university itself, subject
tothe number ofstudent places and in the post-war penod, Mr.ident,
great pressure was exerted on the universities, as in al1countries. After
the ex-servicemen had gone through university, by 1953or 1954 , e
became aware of the fact thatthe numbers had not been going down but
a new eneration had arrived and the result is that great pressure was
exerted on the facilities at the universities in the late fifties.
Mr. GROSSKOP Fh:at influence, if any, did this pressure have on the
admission of the number of Bantu studentsadmitted to the universities?
Rlr.RAUTENBACH 1:certainly think that this pressure lirnited the
number of students admitted to theMedical Faculty at the University
of Witwatersrand and the Dental Faculty, because there is a numerus
of medical students and dentists in the clinical years.a certain number
Jlr. GROSSKOPD F: YOU think that these limitations affected al1
students on a basis of equaIity or not?
hlr.RAUTENBAC :Ham not quiteclear inmy mindas to what you mean.
Mr. GROSSKOP AFs:between the Bantu students and theWhite stu-
dents for instance?
Mr. ~IAUTENBAC Yes:1 thirik that the situation in the open univer-
sities was detrimental tothe best interests of the Bantu studentsand 1
give the following reasons for that.
In the University ofatal where, up to the present moment, Indian,
CoIoured and Bantu are trained in medicine, the training covers seven
yearsand not six yearsas in the case ofother universities. The University
of Natal gives as its reasons the following: the lowate for matric-
dation, the cultural lag, the language lag as regards the medium of
instruction, the Iow marks obtained in mathematicsmatriculation and
some other related reasons. The result is that in the University of Natal
the first year of study is not, as in other universities, devoted to phyçical
science, physics and chemistry andbotany and zoology, but the hrst year
is devoted more to what we cal1"remedial work".
Mr. GROSSKOP NO:W,why isthis remedial work necessary?
pressed by the committee for selecting students at the University of
Natal, must be done because there isa cultural lag, that is the word
iisedthere,and a language handicap.332 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Blr. GROSSKOPF N:ow, what do you mean by "cultural lag" and to
what do you ascnbe it?
llr.RAUTENBAC Th:t in general means that in the case of the Bantu
he has, as a rule, not yet corne from a home where books are often seen
or read or £rom where there is a library, or participation in intellectual
life to any great estent. Thataicultural lag-oneculturallagin this
respect.
Mr. GROSSKOPM F:r. Rautenbachyou were cornmenticg on the system
of university education, particularfor Bantus, as it existed prior
to 1gj9.Could you tell the Court to what extent did the so-called "open''
universities provide facilitieç for extra-curricular of the Bantu
students attendingthem?
Mr. ~UTENBACH: The cxtra-curriculaactivities, referriin this
case to sport and athletics, social amenities, if there were any, were
provided separately. They were not aliowed to become members of the
vanous athletic. associations-footbaand tennis, etc.; they were not
allowed to participate in inter-universityities of that kind; so that
outside of the purely academic there was separaton these campuses.
Mr. GROSSKOP Could you tell the Court whether attendance at the
open universities had any effects, and if so what effects, on the relation-
ship .between the Bantu students attendithese universities and their
respective communities?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hn:general the impression was that attendance al
open universities tended towards creatinga gap between their own
communities and thcmsclves, taking themout of their own sphere and
bringing them into a sphere whicinmany respects was foreign to their
own people.
Mr. GROSSKOP These various factors you have mentio'ned, Professor
-what effects, do you thindid they have on the nurnber of Bantu
graduates produced by these universities?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hhe Iollowing factor1 think limited thnumber
of Bantu students attending the universities: firstthe number of
places at the universities; secondly, the relatively high expense at these
universities1 should mention here that in1959 the 13antu College of
Fort Hare, whichwas a separate institution, had more students than the
open universities combined; in other words, the Bantu avaiied themselves
more of the separate opportunityin a separate institutiothan the
opportunities on the open campuses.
Mr. GROSSKOPF Y:OUmentioned the expense; were there any other
factors of relevance, you think, as regards the nuBantuograduates
at the open universities, or from the open universities?
hlrRAUTENBAC Hou sny the number of Bantu graduntes?
Mr.GROSSKOPY F:CS.
Mr.RAUTENBAC Hh:sc actuaiIy obtaining degrecs?
Mr.GROSSKOPY F:es.
Mr.RAUTENBAC NO:,Icannot think of other relevant matters here
atthe present moment.
Mr.GROSSKOP F:hat demand waç there for Bantu graduates?
Mr. R~UTENBAC Hhere was an ever-increasing demand for Bantu
graduates, particularly since more or l1953,a need so far exceeding
the provision ando far exceeding the numbers coming forward that 1
think educational leaders by the late fiftieshad realized some other new
type of provision should be made.Iay 1 mention here that after the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 333
Bantu Education Act of 1953 was implemented as from 1954 onwards, it
became clear that no great breakthrough could be made in the sphere of
secondary education unless more graduates were comingonvard or more
teachers tiained for teaching on the secondary level, and that was one
of thevery important matters, one of the very important rcasons, why
senous effort had to be made to extend the facilities for the training of
Bantu, Coloured and Indian, but particularly the Bantu. Secondlwith
the implementation of the new dynamic policy for the development of
Bantu homelands, economic development, etc., more top-level adminis-
trative officials were needed, andhese also had to be supplied by the
universities.It is generally taken that the universities provide for
leadership.
hlr.GROSSKOP Th:e cornments you passed on thc provisions prior to
1959-what solution was proposed for these vaiious criticisms you have
mentioned?
hlr.RAUTENBAC TH:e reply to criticisms and the plan to meet the
difficulties are to be found in the University Extension Act, Act45o.
of 1959,and that isthe Act through wliich the State university coIleges
were created as from1960 onwards.
Mr. GROSSKOP W h:ich university colleges ïvere created in terms ofthis
Act?
Mr. RAIJTENBAC FHo:r university colleges were createinterms of
this Act:the Bantu University Collegeof the North, N1;the University
College at Ngoye,in ZuIuland, No.2;the University Collegof Natal for
Indians; the University College of the Western Cape for Coloureds; and
what 1 mentioned already in my evidence today, the Bantu College of
Fort Hare became then the University College of Fort Hare.
&Ir.GROSSKOP Ho:w is the administration of these universitycolleges
organized?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H:ake it that by the word "administration" you
mean how are these goverlied, what is the fofmgovernance? According
to the Act the university consists o(1) the Council, which is a body
corporate; secondly, an Advisory Council, the Advisory Council con-
sisting of at least eight members drawn from the ethnic grwhos have
an interest in that university college; thirdly, a University Senate ad-
vising on instruction and the discipline of studeiits, with its cornmittees,
generally called faculties oby other names; fourthly, an Advisory
Senate consisting of the Heads of Departments 1)elongingto those ethnic
groups and such other lecturers as the JIinister appointed tothe Adiisory
Senate; then the Rector as the chief executive officer of the university,
and in the Act, as in al1Acts pertaining to universities, al1the professors
and lecturers and members of the teacliing staff and students are
mentioned as components ofsuch a universitycollege.
Mr. GROSSKOP ?X:hich students attend these vanous university
colleges? Couldyou just tell the Court?
Mr. RAUTENBAC AH:cording to the Act, the hIinister can determine
which ethnic groups shall attend thevarious university colleges. The
University College at Durban is reserved fortlians; the Western Cape
for Coloureds; the medical faculty of the University of Natal for Indians,
Coloureds and Bantu; the former University College of Fort Hare for
Xhosa-speaking people; the University Collegc at Ngoyc for Zulu and
Swazi and the University Collegeof the North forho-speaking peoples,
for Venda and lçouga.334 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Jlr. GROSSKOPF N:OWin addition to those colleges, what other univer-
sity institutions may be attended by Bantu particularly or other non-
Mites?
Mr. RAUTENBACH: Al1universities may be attended by non-Whites,
subjeci to firstly, the Minister granting permission; secondly, their
qualifying forentrante; thirdly, the council of that university allowing
them to register and there are at present still, 1 t181kregistered at
three or four of the full universities.
hlr. GROSSKOPF N:OWdealing particularly with the university colleges
established particularly for tBantu people-what is the language of
instruction?
Mr. RAUTENSACT Hh:e language of instruction outside of the Bantu
languages is Englisaht the present time. In the case of the college for
the Coloured, the language is Afrikaans;in the caof the collegefor the
Indians-English.
Mr. GROSSKOP CFo:uld you teli the Court what thenature and quality
of the matenal facilities at these colleges are?
&Ir. RAUTENBAC The: material facilities at the College of the North
are excellent-the lecture rooms which 1 have seen and haveoften
inspected;the laboratories, in fty university people acted as advisers
to the architect in the case of the laboratories; the new library is good.
In the case of Ngoye, there are also new buildings; in the case of the
College at Fort Hare buildings have been added; in the case of the
Indians, they arestill housed on Salisbury Island but a beautiful site has
beenselected in Durban of some 450acres and they wi11be getting their
new buildings there andthey could cornein there by 1967;in the case of
the \Vestern Cape College, these are also new buildings-thfirst build-
ings wvereerected for teaching up to the first degree, but with the develop-
ment of the post-graduate level the laboratories had to be extended.
Mr. GROSSKOPF HOWwould OU say these various facilities compare
with those of the older universities in SouAfrica?
hlr. RAUTENBAC The:y compare very wel1,of course, because they
are new and when the laboratones wvereerected, the architect and his
advisers visited al1the universities to get the latest ideas as regards
equipment and building oflaboratories, etc.
Mr. RXUTENBACH WF:T:he university colleges started off chiefly withes?
courses in the faculty of Ietters and philosophy, the faculty of arts as rt
is also known, the faculty of pure science and mathematics and the
faciiltof education. Although in thcase ofNgoye there were only twro
faculties at the outset, letters and arts, and education, a third has been
added. In the case of Fort Hare, divinity ha$been added andfulllegal
faculty has been established leading up to the LL.B.degree-thais the
degree taken after the first degree. Ail in1think there are about58
subjects taught at these colleges, al1subjects, taught anything from one
to three pears, so that student courses I.suppose would amount to some-
thing like 240 o250.Now in rny own university there are just over 925
student courses, but, of course, tisverp much older, and courses are
being added irom year to year.
Mr. GROSSKOPN F: W,there has been refcrence from time to time to
the training of engineers-could you tell the Court what facilities are
available for training of Bantu engineers?
Mr.RAUTENRAC THh: facilities available in South Africa at present IVITNESSES AND EXPERTS 335
are the facilities attached to the iT7hite universities at Cape Town,
Witwatersrand, Natal, Pretoria and Stellenbosch. These are the only
facilities for graduate training in engineering, for training of engineers
to acquire a degree, and students could attendthese if the Minister were
to allow them to do so. According to the çtatist1obtained, the Minister
did give permission toone student in 1962, and 1made furthcr enquiries
and it became clear it wasa post-graduate course he intcnded attending.
There were a number of applications for attendancc at open universities,
and where thescience faculties of the Bantu collegeç provide the training
for the first year of engineering,physics, chemistry, appBed mathematics,
etc., thehlinister referred these applicants to these various colleges. A
survey war made at one time as to the need for instituting training for
engineers at the Bantu colleges. It was found that fiveBantu students
intended taking up engineering as a career but before any real serious
preparatioris could be made as from the second year onwards, these
applicants had already selected other professions. 1 only know of one
trained civil engineer,a Bantu, in South Afric:~and he has left South
Africa for Swaziland recently.
Mr. GROSSKOPF N:ow proceeding tothe çtaff of the university colleges,
could you first tell the Court how the staff is appointed?
Mr. RAL~TEKBAC The: staffis appointed, hlr. President, afterap-
plications have been solicited and these are advertised in many papers
for some tiine,perhaps a month. Then a selection comrnitteeiçappointed
by the principal, consisting of the head of that department or a closely
related department, thehead of the opposite ntunber in the University
of South Afnca, one or two experts drawn from other universities. This
committee for selection then lays its report before the senate of the
university college concerned. The senate fhen makeç a recornmendation
to the university counciland the council then makes a recornmendation
to the iliinister. The process then iç-thepost is advertised, the com-
mittee of experts is appointecl, the committee of experts recommends to
senate, senate to council, council tothe Minister, and the Minister rnakes
the appointment.
Nr. GROSSKOP NF: Wwhat isthe quality of the. staff that hns been ob-
tained?
Mr. RAUTËNBACH T:he quality of the staff is excellent. hIany of the
members of staff hold doctorates of universitiesof the Continent,
American universities, British universities, South African universitiIs.
have even found that in one department, there are three out of five
members of the teaching staff holding doctorates, otherhold master's
degrees or honours degrees, more than one master's degree and others
hold bachelor's degrees, but these are usually appointed to junior lectur-
ships until they improve their qualifications and then they are promoted
to higher posts.
bfr. GROSSKOP TFo:what extent has it been possible to inake use of
Bantu inte[lectuals in staffing these university colleges?
hlr.RAUTENBAC H :the outset,we refer to1960, a çurvey was made
of the available Uantu acadeinics, or men and wornen of promisc, and a
number were selected, but none was appointed to a higher post than a
senior lecturer and none was appointed at that time to the Iieadshipof
a department. Since then, the following has happened. In the Rantu
College at Kgoye, of the 50 members of staff, nine are now Bantu, one
holds ther;iok of professor and head of a department. Of th69 members336 SOUTH WEST AFRTCA
of the teaching staff at the University College of the Nor12,are Bantu
and, of these, two are heads of departments, one with a rank of professor
and the other senior lecturer and, in the case of Fort Hare, of the Sg
mernbers of staff, 15 Raritu have been appointed and, of these, one is
professor and 1 think there are a number who are heads of departments
with the rank of senior lecturer.
Mr. GROSSKOPFN : OIV,Professor Rautenbach, you have testified about
the cultural life tlkat influences the performance and admissiori of
students at the old open universities. To what extent is attention given
to that inthese new colkges?
Mr. RAUTBNBACH: Attention is given to thatin these new colleges at
the present juncturc, by the very fact that the nurnbers are small and,
in dealing with smallnumbers of students (comparatively small numbers)
and with a very favourablestaff-student ratio, it is possible to give more
personal and individual attention to students than where you have large
numbers, such as at niy own university. Secondly, the men and the
women ~vhoteach in these universities get to know how to prescnt the
material or the subject-matter in such way that learning becomes more
efficient. One should bear in mind, Btr. President, that these studentsare
still prepared for an externa1 examination and the externa1 esamination
is the same as that taken by thousands of White students, and the
teacher, lecturer, orprofessor has to keep on his toes inorder to get a
fair number of passes in his class, so he has got adjust his teaching to
that kind of lag,and mai Iqualify "cultural lag"by saying that it is the
intellectual culturalag,it is riot a lag in other spheres.Cultulag does
not mean an inferiority, by the way, itsirnply means that owi?g to
environment there will be less advantages accruing to that individual
than to others.
Mr. GROSSKOPF W:illYOU te11the Court what attention is given to
these students How do the pass rates compare, in fact, with those
elsewhere?
Alr.RAUTENBAC Hhey compare very favourably. The first year is
regarded as the most difficulyear in South Africa and al1overthe world.
In 1961,1962, 1963 and 1964, in only one year was the first year pass
rate under 60 per cent. The average is slightly above60per cent., which
is the same as at my university.At my university it is a steady62 per
cent. It is just over that, 1think. It is just about that-taverage over
the first five years.
As regards the second and third years1can also give you the statistics.
It is the same. Now degrees in South AfricMT. President, are three-year
degrees-the first degrees, B.A.iid B.%.-not four years as in thcnse
of America. It is very much the sarne as at rny own university-75,
76per cent. in the second year and over 80 in the third year.
&Ir.GROÇSKOPF Professor liautenbach, how do the fees at the univer-
sity colleges compare with those in the other universities?
Mc.RXUTENBACH In:no case does the composite fee (the composite
feein thiç case meaning a fee including both residential facilities and
teaching) exceed £100 (the equivalent of£100 English). In the cnse of
the European universities, both board and Iodging itseIf is about £150
to £160 English and the tuition fees apart may be anything up to over
IOO guineas each per annum. As regards other African States, inLiberia,
or 1 think, Nigeria and others, the composite feethere isthe equivaleii! of
165 Englishand upwards. Itis,thus,half ofthat in most Africancountnes. WITKESSES .%NDEXPERTS 337
hlr. GR~SSKOPF\:mat facilities are avsilabforfinancial assistanc'
or scholarships, or things of that sort?
Mr. FL~UTENBAC GH:vernment bursaries and government loans are
provided. Resides, privatfirms,municipalities and other bodies, such as
the Shell Oil Company, have come forward with loans, scholarships,
bursaries and prizes and, in the case of some of the colleges, the number
of bursaries and loans available exceed the number of students and that
is, of course, a very favourable situation.
Mr. GROSSKOPF YOU told the Court thai, priorto 1959 in the open
universities there were few facilities for extra-curricular activitofs
Bantu students. Could you compare the position with the new Bantu
university colleges in that respect?
hlr. RAUTENBACH Y:es.In the new Bantu colleges, the student is in
the saine privileged position as the White studentsare in their universities
and university collegeç, enjoying a full life, enjoying a full academic life
and also in the extra-curricular and CO-curricular sphere-debating
societies, literary societies, scientific associatioris, sport and athletics, a
student is a whole man or a whole woman on hisown campus.
Mr. GROSSKOPFH : OWdoes the number of stiidents in the new Bantu
colleges cumpare with the number of students previously enrolled at the
open universities?
Mr. RAIJTENBAC A s:1 testified earlier this afternoon, the numatr
the open universities in.1g5g was precisely 300. The number at the
colleges todayis1,107, minus 181-that is, soniewhat over900-940 or
950. Thert: are 950 students more or less at these three colleges for the
Bantu ethnic groups.
Mr. GR~SSKOPF And liow many 13antu stuilents are there. at other
university institutions?
Mr. RAIJTENRAC AS:1 just mentioned, there are still at the present
moment 181 in the three universities Johannt:sburg, Cape Town, and
Natal, ancl the Natal students, of course, inclutle the 80 students in the
medical f2iculty. Then, the number is given in the statistics of the
University of South Africa as being 1,500-justover 1,500 this year, but
1think that includes the degree students at the Ilantu university colleges,
who would probably be in the neighbourhood of 700-800,the others being
diplorna si.udents.
Mr. GROSSKOPF \: at would your projection be of the number of
students iil these institutions over the next niimber of years?
Mr. RATJTENBAC Hhe projections which have been made so far are
as follows for the Bantu. niat,in the case of the Bantu College of the
North, in Ngoye and Fort Ware the expected increase issomewhat more
than doutile the present number in the first five years and, with the
doubling of the numbers again to 1975,and again doubling the numbers
to 1980 S.o that by1970 the projection there will then be close on 2,000
students; by 1975, 4,000 and,by 1980, 8,000.
Mr. GROSSKOPFO :n what is this projection based?
Mr. RAIITENBAC n :one case a mathematical formula was used. In
the other cases, 1 think cornmonsense was used and a study of the
number of secondary school pupils, the gradua1 increase in the number
of prirnarji school pupils, these going on to secondary schools and then
the steep lise, which is now taking place in the number of rnatriculants.
There has been a sudden, steep rise in the number of matriculants. The
matriculation is the entrance examination to universitiesand in 1964338 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
the indications are that we have this steep rise continuing for many years
to come.
hlr. GROSSKOPF :ou have already testified that by 19there was a
substantial demand for Bantu graduates. What is the position at the
moment?
&Ir.RAUTENBACH T:here is an ever-increasing demand for Bantu
graduates in every sphere.
Mr.GROSSKOP DFo:you knowwhether those who havebeen graduated
have succeeded in obtaining gainful employment?
Mr. RAUTENBACY He:s. Every one of these has succeeded in obtaining
gainful employment. Ofcourse, the Bantu collegeshave selected the hest
of these to appoint them to posts in the colleges themselves becausc
they are the future academics.
community life of the various cornmunities?hese colleges plaitithe
hlr.RAUTENBAC H:r. President, I am best acquainted with the Bantu
Collegeofthe North, which I iisit, as Chairman of the Council,froni time
to time. 1 also attend public events there, graduation cerernonies,
visitors' days, prize-giving days and occasions of that nature on that
campus, and these events are attended by the Bantu from the neighbour-
ing township, from Pietersberg and from the Bantu area in mhich it
stands. The University Collegeis next door tthe headquartersof the
Commissioner-GeneraI, and when the headmen or Bantu leaders come
fora meeting there, aa rule they also visit the Colleisnear onc of
the main roads in the Transvaal and it is visited by many people. Re-
centlywe had a visit there 1ftliink, 76 Bantu headmen, coming from
South West Africa.
Mr. GROSSKOP TO:what extent do you think these colleges are being
accepted by the various communities?
>Ir. RAVTENBACT O:rny surprise and gratitude, they have already
been accepted. In this respect, that the students are regarding this
particular college as their college, or identifying themselves with that,
their coiiege, the Bantu Collegeof the North. The Advisory Council has
already shoivn that they accept it as their college. The Advisory Council
consists of Bantu intellectuals, of Bantu chiefs c-irleaders, and soinc of
the members of the Advisory Council have given gifts in kind to Univer-
sity College.Oneman, Lekhanjane, has donated a scholarship, or at lcast
a sum of money of r,ooo rand, which is the equivalent of L5ooEnglish,
for Bantu students.
Mr. GROSSKOPF H:aveany other gifts been received?
PietersbugNBmunicipality, the local governments, from the Shell Oil the
Company, frorn Von Schaik's bookstore in Pretoria and a number of
other private undertakings of an industrial or commercial nature.
Mr. GROSSKOPFP:rofessor, do you sec any value in the intellectual
contacts on the staffof these Bantu university colleges between tlie
various groups represented there?
>Ir. RAUTENBACY He:s, on the campus of the Bantu College of the
North there is association as between the Imite rnembers of staff and
the Bantu members of staff.There is intellectual association. They meet.
They come to know each other. They come to appreciate each other. 1
think they corne to know each other's problems. 1 think there is great
advantage in this association. In fact, Bir. President, 1 have, myself, WITNESSES AND EXPERT!; 339
gained a good deal of knowledge for my own work in advising the
government on education from association with the Professor of Practical
Education at the Bantu College of the North, Profesçor Kgnari, whom
I have oftenl met in his office.
hlr. GROSSKOPF: Professor Rnutenbach, could you tell the Court
whether tlie principlesappLied in these Bantu i:olIegescorrespond with
principles advocated in other parts of the world?
a hir. R~~UTENBAC MHa:y 1 have some clarity on that question? What
do you mean by principles? Principles of teaching or training or...?
Alr.GROÇÇKOPFY : OUhave explained to the Court that at these univer-
sities attention isgiven to the particulaattributesof the students and
the particiilar association with their commvnities. To what extent are
these factors also recognized in other parts of tlie world?
hlr. R~UTENBACH 1:think it is part, although every university has
something of a local or national character, there is something which
every university has in cornmon with every other university in the worid
and these broad general pnnciples are accepted and applied at Turfloop
and at the other colleges, the broad general principles.
Mr. GROSSKOI> Fn:d as far as their specific implernentation is con-.
cerned in an African context?
hlr. RALTTENBAC AHs f:ar as their specificimplementation is concerned
in an African context, 1 think that is also done there. There is a strong
department of Bantu languages and wviththe exception of the Professor
-Professor Endemann-the other four members of his staff are Bantu
from the vanouç ethnic groups. So that on the staff itself something of
campusst,andhthese gentlemen, thcse members of staff, act as a kind ofhat
go-betweeii as between the Rector, Professor Potgieter, and the Bantu
students. It iç of great assistance to Professor Potgieter, in guiding his
university, to have at his elbow Bantu intellectuals, who can interpret
many problems of the Bantu and can make him acquliinted with their
particular angle or their usage, or their custom, although Professor
Potgieter himself is a trained social anthropologist. But after al1 it
requires a man from that very group to bnng forward the finesse of that
group.
Rlr.GROSÇKOP FO:YOU know, Professor, whether any other authorities
have emphasized the importance of attuning university education to the
needs of African societies?
hlr. RAIJTENBACM Hr:. President, yes. Since round about 1962, the
middle African States started studying higher education with a vlew to
the future. Afirst meeting was held in AddisAbaba, in Ethiopia, and the
nest meeting was arranged for Madagascar, Tananarive; but in between,
aç a preparation for this further meeting on higher education in the
African States, a Cornmittee was appointed tu prepare a report. The
leader of this committee was Professor Carr-Saunders of London Univer-
sity; President Weeks of the University of Liberia was one of the eople
to asçist Lim and. help hirn and also Monsieur CapeUe of the french
Ministry of Education. These three gentlemen prepared a report for the
meeting at Tananarive in Madagascar and in an article wntten after the
meeting, making reference to what happened atthat meeting, we find
that Carr-Saunders wntes as follows on this subject... May 1 read that?
See p.396, infva.34O SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
The PRESIDEXT:1s it a particular excerpt with lvhich you agree,
Professor ?
Mr. RAUTEXBACH Y:es, itisan excerpt nith which 1agree.
The PRESIDENT : nd whick your experience qualifies you to express an
opinion upon as to whether it is corrector not?
Mr. RAUTENBACH :es, it is correct1agree entirely with this state-
ment. Shall 1 read it,Mr. President?
The PRESIDENT :Ieasc do.
Mr. RAUTENRACH: May I just look for it foa moment? One of the
statements is the following :
"African universities are still small with consequential high over-
head costs and a policy which diverts students .."
The PRESIDEXT :es, hlr. Gross?
&Ir. GROSS: May 1 ask what page the witness jçreading from?
The PRESIDEST: Yes, certainly. What particular page is it that you
are reading from?
Rlr.RAUTENBACH 1:think there is aphotostatic copy which has been
made which could be handed in, or I coiiuse that. Thatwas the original.
The PRESIDEXT:If YOU woulci give the pagination from the original.
Peihaps you could do 50, Rlr.Grosskopf, yourself, can you?
Mr. GROSSKOPFI:f 1 could just pass the pamphIet?
The PRESIDEHT:Very well, let the witness see the original and give
the pagination.
31s.RAUTENBACH F:irstitis page12 of this brochure,StartingAfricun
U?tiversifiesby A. AlCarr-Saunders.
The PRESIDIPNT Y:OUhave tliat, Mr. Gross?
Mr. GROSS:Yes, sir.
Mr. RAUTENBAC:H And the first reads as follows:
"The calculations made in the previous section urere based on the
assumption that so far as African students studying overseas were
concerned there would be no increase in their number.Why was this
assumption made? It was not because overseas countries have
shorvn any reluctance to take more hfrican students; indeed, the
United States is disposed towards generous help for them. It is
because of the attitude takcn by the African States as set out in the
resolution adopted at the Tananarive conference. 'That resolution
stated that: 'There is a strong feeling in fa\rour of studcnts' com-
pleting their undergraduate studies in their home countries. It is
essential for Young Airicans to acquire deep enough roots in tlieir
own cultural and social environment during their formative ycars
More coming into contact with strong outside influences.' "
That is one quotation, and the other is on page 23This relates to the
difference insalaries, but the reason advanced ht:re is this:
"The principlc that children and adolesce~its are best educatein
their own country has been discussed in relation to Africans. It also
applies to expatriates."
The PRESIDENT:It also applies to what?
Mr. RAUTEKBACH T:Oexpatriates. That is a new name which has been
given, Alr. President, to people sojourning for the time being in African
countries ina teachingcapacity and who have notenure but are expected
to stay there at the present time for not more than seven years. There is
also another quotation coming from this pamphlet: WITSESSES AND EXPERTS 34I
"African universities are stiil srnall with consequential highover-
head costs, and a policy which diverts students to other countries
and so slou~sdown the growth of African progress is disadvanta-
geous. Again, overseas scholarships are likely to fa11to the abler
students to the jmpovcrishnientof the student body at home. More
generally, it can be said that the urgent tasktosbuildup African
universitiesith al1speed, for on them so rnuchdepends. [And then
just to have the whole argument] Universities in other countries
cannot be substitutes for home universities."
The PREÇIDEXT:Mr. Gross?
Mr. G~oss: Could I just have the page of that, Sir?
The PUESIDENT Yes, certainly; just give the page of that, please,
Professor.
Wlr.GROSSKOPFP:erhaps, Alr. President, we could give the page num-
ber in a minute and Professor Rautenbach could continue his evidencein
the meanwhile.
hlr. RAUTENBACH: 1marked it, RIr.President, in the other publication,
Minerva, of 1963. 1 rnarked it in that and not in this.
The PRESIDENT:If Mr. Crosskopf undertakes to let hIr. Gross know
the pagination before we leave at6 o'clock, you may continue with the
Professor's evidence.
Mr. GROSSKOPF: 1 will do that, Mr. President. That wns then the
opinion of Carr-Saunders and yoii have indicatcd that you agree with it
in itsentirety-with the vieita expressed there?
Mr. RAUTENEACHT :hat was the opinion of Car-Saunders, substan-
tiated by the resolution of the African States at Tananarive.
Rlr. GROSSKOPFN : OW,have similar views been espressed by other
persons?
hlr. RAUTENBACHY : es. The first time 1 met these views \!,as in the
British UqtiversilieQt~arterlof September 1958. An articleIVCUwritten
there under the title "The Idea of an Afncan Uiiiversity" by Hodgkin-
that isT. Hodgkin. He expresçed the foHowing . . . Rir. Preçident?
The PRISSIDENT: Have YOU got the document, hlr. Gross?
Mr. GRC~SSKOPC F:uld you give the referenca to that, Professor?
The PRISSIDENTH : ave you got the document, 31r.Gross?
Mi. R.AUTENBACH I: you could pass on one of these things, where 1
could find that? 1 have brought along the whole of the article which1
quoted in one of my articles. 1did not note the page.
The PRISSIDENT: Mr. Gross? Pardon me, Professor, Mr. Gross?
>Ir. CROSS:In order to Save the Court's time, Mr. President, if it
could be made available at the conclusiori of the sess...
The PRESIDENT Yes, certainly, that could be done, could it not, Mr.
Grosskopf ?
Mr. GROSSKOPFT :hat could be done. Ll'illyou continue please, Pro-
fessor Rautenbach?
Mr. RAVTENBAC:H There, Hodgkin writes as follows:
"1 could argue that the question, what can Africans reasonably
demand of their universities,can no longer be answered by saying,
quite simply, an education of essentially the same type and standard
as is provided in those European universities which have lieen
accepted as models. This is principally because the climate of
African opinion on such matters has changed and is changing.In a342 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
variety of fields,the policy of identity, or, as it is sometimes termed,
assimilation has been rejected. The attitudeof many, probably
most, African intellectuals, North of the Equator at any rate, is that
where institutions have been borrowed from Europe, theymust in
the nature of things deveIop specifically African characterist ics."
And then, shall 1 continue?
Mr. GROSSKOPF I:YOU please.
hlr. RAUTENBA C1Halso quote here, Mr. President, from Sir Eric
Ashby's opening address on the occasion of the Commonwealth Univer-
sities Conference, London15 July 1963, which 1attcnded myself. It is
to be found in the Report of the Commonwealth Universities Conference,
1963.It is also to be found in Minerva. Sir Eric Ashby said the following:
"The Asquith Commission, which laid down in 1945 ..."
The PRESIDENTh :lr. Gross?
Mr. GROSS:1am sorry, Mr. President, but these quotes apparently are
regarded asofsufficient value to be put into the record. 1 wonder whether
information 7he citation and page-where it is published and any other
The PRESIDENTI:Vhere was it published and who is Sir Eric khby so
that we rnay know something about the person whose views you are
quoting?
Mr. RAUTENBACH M:r. President, musT tell the Court who Sir Eric
Ashby is?
The PRESIDENTW : ell, 1think it would be useful.
Mr. RAUTENBACH Si:r Eric Ashby is at present Master of Clare College,
Cambridge. Sir Eric was Professor at London Uiiiverçity, then went to
Auçtralia. Afterhiswar service in World \Var Two he was appointed
Scientific Attaché in Moscow. He returned from hloscow and he became
Principal and Vice-Chancellor of the University of Belfast, Northern
Ireland and now, for about six yearshaçbeen Master of Clare College,
Cambridge.
The PRESIDENTT :hat will be enough I think. Perhaps you mi ht now
give &Ir.Gross the actual title of the pamphlet you are quoting rom, or
the address that he made and the page so that &Ir,Gross may have
occasion to be able to refer to it overnight.
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:hetitle is "The DiversiofUniversities" and,as
1 Say, itisin the Report of the Congress and it is aiso to be found in
Illinerva,but1 could not quote that, LZlr.President.
Pilr.GROSSKOPF Y:erhaps we could follow the same course, Mr. Presi-
dent, and give the references to Mr. Gross.
The PRESIDENT T:he page nurnber will be given to M;. Gross. Very
well. Have you completed your quotation yet, Professor?
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:hank you, Mr. President.
Mr.GROSÇKOPFH : ave you read your qiiotatjon yet, Professor?
Mr. RAUTENBACY He:s, 1am through with that.
could refer the Court to? Are there any other similar views that you
hlr. ~UTENBACH: Xo, These views are of such importance coming
from Africa, from the people who are involved with us in this matter, that
1u-ould hardIy go outside Africa for opinions of this kind.
1 can also quote, if necessary, a meetinofthe United Kations Or-
ganization.
Mr. GROSSKOPF I: hich one is that? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 343
Mr. RAUTENBACH: That is the one held in Geneva and the date, 1
think, was 1963. 1have the text before me: it is General SessionK,
Training of Scientific and Technical Personnel.
Mr. GR~SSKOPA F:nd what is the publication from which you are
quoting?
hlrRAUTEKBAC 1Hfund itin one of the university publications from
overseas-the whole was quoted in this and it is a United Nations
publication1 have the whole thing before me. 'Theextract was madas
a whole and there is some reference here. It can be obtained in The
Hague.
Rlr. GRC~SSKOPIFf:YOU have the text before you, Professor, perhaps
you could just quote the passage you wanted to quote and give the page
of thaf publication from which you are quoting?
The PRISSIDENT S: long as you let Mr. Gross know precisely where
the document isto be found, whether it is this document or the original
or a copy ofthe original1should Say.
Mr. RATJTENBA Ces,well al11 can add is that there is a footnote
here to the effect that this can be obtained in The Hague anonipage
356 of this booklet1have before me.
The PRI~SIDENT : hat is the name of the booklet?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hhe name of the 6ooklet is Universiteiten Hoge
School, which is Dutch for "University and High School" and isthe
official publication of the Netherlands Universities-tuniversities of
this country.
The PRIISIDEN T: Umay as well give us the quotation now.
hlr~UTENB.~CH: The quotation here is on this page and there is this
Committet: of the United Nations, Special SessK/23, Specialized Pro-
grarnrning for Training at Higher Technical Institutes and Universities.
This refers to developing countries.
"By attending the good universities of niore advanced countries,
etc., t.he students can acquire the necessai-y knowledge. The main
disadvantage of such a programme is that a rather long stay in
countries with adifferent way of Iife, different possibilities of work
and different available means, \vil1insti1 tht:m with ideas and habits
which will not let them readjust thernselves to their original social
environment ."
The PRISSIDEN MT:. Gross?
English translation of the original Dutch work?1.inquire, reading an
Mr. RAIITEXBACN Ho:. Accordingto this publicatioit ithe original
EngIish.
Rlr. GROSS:Thank you.
hlr.RA~JTENBACH: The introduction is written in Dutch, but the rest
jsquated from the English.
The PRESIDENT Y es, Mr. Grosskopf?
Rlr.GRI)SSKOP F: W,Professor, 1 just want to make it clear that
these various passages you have read are. in addition to similar ones
which are found in the Counter-hlemorial. that soi
Mr. RAIJTENBAC Hh:at is so, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSSKOPF: And do you agree, in general, with the views expressed
in hem?
Mr. RAI~TENBAC 1agree completelytviththe views expressed, yes.344 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. GROSSKOPF F:inally, Professor, 1 should Iike to askyou Sour
opinion as to what would happen if the present differentiated provisions
for university educationwere abolished. Firstly,1 would ask you what
your views would be asto what would the results be if there were no
institutionsspecially attuned to theneeds of the Bantu?
MT. RAUTENBACFIIf: the poIicy were to be reversed, in other words,
the old type of open university would become open again in that sense,
we would not anly be back nrhere Ive were in r958, but Ive ivould be
saddled with a number of new problems. Since 1960 the studentson these
various campuses and, 1think, the members of the staff, Bantu, Indian,
Coloured, have led a much fuller life than was possible prior to 1959,
both in the purely academic, in the CO-curricular and in the extra-
curricular. They have become aware of their rights, they have become
more acutely conscious of their aspirationsand the only alternative to
the present would be not to return to 1959 but an entirely new set-up
and that is the completely integrated universityAnd with a completely
integrated university more problems will arise than we have ever had
before.
hlr.GROSSKOPF W:hy do you say that, Professor?
Mr. RAUTENBACH B:ecause the cultural Iag, anditis the intellectual
part of the cultural, and the language lag has not changed considerably.
The handicap will still be present therIf Bantu students were now to
enter the medical faciiltieat other universities they tvouldhave to
compete for the places there, unless you have a numerus clazkszks,with
White students because it is a matter of entering on merit. The experience
in Natal has been, and is at the present moment,an unfair type of com-
petition, and whereas the seven years' trainingin Natal has proved to
be very satisfactory, at the end of that period the external examiners for
the medical students of Natal University corne from the White univer-
sities, from their own universities, and they have found that they appTy
the same standard in the final examinations that they use in Cape Town,
Johannesburg, Pretoria or Stellenbosch. They pass on the same standard
and are registered with the same Medical Council.
Now, if we were to Ïeturn to what we had before 1959 ,nd if every
university became an open university, that one special provision, which
has been made to overcome this temporary cultural lag, will fa11to the
ground with al1its results.
Fnrthermore, gioups, who have become more gruupconscious in the
mcantime, and they have a right to become more conscious, on the same
terms will create a number of new problems for any chief executive
officer of a university.
Mr. GROSSKOPF N:OW,that is your view as to what would happen if
the differential universitiwere entirely abolished. Could you express
a view as to what would probably happen if the present university
colleges were rctained, but if students were permitted an unfettered
choice of attendingany university they liked?
Mr. RAUTEKBAC MH:. President, that is a matter of opinion, but the
climate-the whole intellectual climateof the worId-has changed to
such an extent that these things no longer happen in the ordinary,
natural Ray that every man follows his own hent. There is so much
provocation from the outsidc, so much organizxtion, that a number of
probiems would be created. These institutions for the Bantu, which we
aretrying to build up in every respecttu be the equal of universityin- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 345
stitutions elsewhere, wnollonger have the sole right to get tbest of
the Bantu intelligentsia and the result is, 1 an1afraid, that we would no
longer be able to have what we had in 1959 where the majority, even
with the open universities at thatime, went i:o the Bantu College at
Fort Rare.1 am afraid that if we were to revers<:the policy these Bantu
colleges would survive, but without this dpnamic growth, this vigour,
which they display at the present mornerit, particularly if scholars~iips
and bursaries are offered to withdraw the able students from those
university colleges.
Secondly, you could not retain the best staff if the best type of student
does hiç post-graduate work elsewhere. It is one of the attractionsain
university to be able to teach and train men and women at the post-
graduate level.So 1 am afraid we will get very few advantages and we
will solve f'ewerproblems than we create and 1 do not think that the
Bantu cornmunities which are beingserved by their own men and women
willbe as well served by those who, to some exti:nt, cut loose from their
own communities. As the representatives otht:African States said at
Tananarive two or three years ago, one can substitute the word "over-
seas" for White, Bantu for African and then you get the same picture.
Mr. GROSSKOP : 1have no further questions.
The PRESIDENT : r. Gross?
Mr.GROSS :es, Mr. President, 1 wonld like to cross-examine, Sir.
The PRESIDENT:Certainly, please do so.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir. Dr. Rautenbach, 1 wiiI question you for the
rernaining portion of this session from my notes and if1 unwittinglj-
misquote you or distort what you have said, please correct me if you will,
Sir.
You testified, I believe,Dr. Rautenbach, tliat your knowledge of
circumstances in South West Africa was obtainetl by reading and study.
1s that correctSir?
Mr. F~UTEXBAC TH:at is correctMr. President.
hlr. GROSÇ: Could you cite any authorities on whorn you relied in
reaching your conclusions with respect tothe edui:ational problems of the
Territory, Sir?
Mr. RAU-~ENBA :CHs regards the educational problemç of the Terri-
tory, 1 read the report submitted by Dr. Van Zyl who headed that
Commissiori in 1958 or 1959; 1 have reacl the Odendaal Commission's
report, 1have read Professor Wellington's survey of the whole South
NJest African situation, as published Optima ...
Mr. GROS: What waS that name, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBACH W ellington. Professor Wellington of the University
of Witwatersrancl. He wrote an article inOptima with a view to this
court case at The Hague, just to give general background informatonn
South West Africa.
Mr. GROSSI :n your testimony with respect to the situatiin higher
level educarion in South Africa,1take it that theundisputed factç of
record are familiar to you with respect, for exarnple, to the number of
students enrolled in South West Africa at various levels of the secondary
school-are you familiar with those figures?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hes,1 am familiar with the percentage and some
of thefigures, in a general way.
Mr. G~oss: I was referring, among other things, specifically to the
tableLXXXXVI which ison page 255ofthe Odendaal Commission report.346 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
MT.RAUTENBAC1 Hh:ave it before me.
&Ir.GROSS 'au will note at table LXXXXVI the Standard IX-this
is for the year 1962, asYOU will note-has four persons enrolled, and
Standard X three persons enrolled-this is for the year 1962in aof the
Territory of South West Africa?
Mr. ~~AU~ENBACH : Yes.
Mr. GROSS D:o you have any question about the accuracy of that
figure?
Mr. RAUTEKBAC Ho:.
Mr. GROÇS: It is true, is it not, that the cornpoftStandard X iç a
necessary prerequisite for admission to university in South Africa?
iilr~~AUTENBACH : It i5 partiy true, in so far as Standard X by itself
doesnot give access, but the Standard X which provides matriculation-
there are two examinations; the one is a school-leaving, not providing
access, and the otheris a matriculation, which does provide access.
Mr.GROSSS:o that if 1understand you correctly two examinations are
required, but completion of StandardX is a requirernent in itself, i~that
right?
hlr. RAUTENBAC Yes;, it is after the twelfth year of schooling, which
means Standard X, one does go on to university.
hlrGROSS Andwith respect to the enrolrnent figures in higher educa-
tion-1 refer to the Counter-hlemorial, III, at page 474, which is the
Respondent's pleading-and I shall just read these figures across the
line, with the introduction as followsin paragrap21:
"Ovcr the years 1960to 1962the number ofstudents who attained
the necessary qualifications for admission ta universitywas as
follows:
1960 1961 1962
Native I 2 2."
Finally, just to set the picture. it is true, is it not, asis stated in the first
sentence of paragraph zx on this page: "There are no facilities in South
West Africa for higher educationW-that is correct?
Mr. RAVTENBAC :Hhat is correct.
Mr. GROSS R:everting now to the authorities whorn you have read and
upon whom you have relied in reaching your views with respect to the
higher level education problems in the Territory, you referred to Dr. Van
Zyl's report-that was, 1 think, was it not, the 1958Commission of
Enquiry to which Dr. Van Zyl has testified in these proceedings7-and
the Odendaal Commission report itçelf; do you have any other basis of
knowledge or expertise of any kind with respect to conditions in the
Territory, except for the documents and authonties you have cited?
Mr. RAVTENBAC :HO.
hlr.G~oss: Have you ever visited the Territory?
Mr. RAUTENBAC NO:.
Mr. G~oss: In connection with the responsibilities of your committee
-1 refer to you now as Chairman of the National Advisory Committee
on Education-1 believe you testified, did you not, Dr. Rautenbach, that
it was the function of that comrnittee, among other things, to advise
regardingeducation policy and to CO-ordinateeducation policy, excluding
higher education-iç that correct?
Mr. RAUTENBACN Ho:, it is not quite correct-1 said for the Republic
asa whole. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 347
Mr. G~oss: For the Republic as a whole. Doi:s that exclude problems
arisingin South West Afnca?
Mr. RAIJTENBAC ItH:oes exclude, by law, problems arising in South
West Africa, with this proviso: that for the Director of Education of
South West Africa it is,an open matter to associate with my council on a
voluntary basis; he visits us, and he is a guest, and if he wishes to bring
anything fonvard reIating to South West Africa, he may doso;anhe is
actually a kind of assessor-member of my coiincil,but South West Africa
is excluded. We had a rding Iaid doml by thil Minister of Education,
Arts and Science that South West Africasexcluded from the sphere on
which we advise directly.
Mr. G~oss: With respect to another cohrnittee on which you serve,
the National Councilfor Social Research, you are Chairman of its General
Purpose Committee, is that correct?
Mr. RAIITENBAC Th:t is correct.
Mr. GROSS:What function, if any, does that have with respect to
affairs or events in South West Africa?
Mr.RAITTENBAC ItH:ay have a relation with South West Afnca in
so far as tliis council allots funds for research, and if there is anything in
educational or social research especially relata South West Africa
-at least, we allot moniesfor research in the whole-includes South
West Africa. A student for a Ph.D. Degree, for instance, a Doctor's
if he applies for a grant to this councilwetrnay give a gra;tso iis
only an indirect relation.
Mr. GRCISS HOW many members are there of the National Advisory
Council on Education?
hlr. RAUTENBACT Hw:enty-nine, including myself as Chairman.
Mr. GROSS:Are they al1classified as White imder the South African
census?
Mr. RAWTENBA CThey are al1claçsifiedas White.
Mr. GROSS H:OW large a staff does that council have?
Mr. R~L~TENBA The council has a srnail staff directly available in
the fonn of a SecretaryanAssistant Secretary andthree or four others,
but the council has at its elbow the services of the whole Department of
Education ,Arts and Science whenever we need administrative officials,
and so on; that is now the National Adviçory Education Council.
Mr. GROSS T:his is the National Advisory Education Council?
Mr. RAETENSACY He:s.
Mr. GROSS: The omission of non-Whites from the membership onthe
council isa matter of policy, iç it-Statpolicy, or council policy, or
both?
Mr. RAUTENBACT ti:s a matter of State policy, but may 1 complete
the picture?
Mr. G~oss: With respect to the council itself?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hi:th respect to the council itself, yes.
Mr. GROSS If theCourt wishes.
Mr. RAUTENBAC The: Act in no way limits the advice given by the
councilto European education only, andasa matter of fact the Govern-
dations to CO-ordinate the education of al1 national groups with the
changing economy, and it was mentioned in my cu~riculumvitaethat 1
also preside over that. And then there is a Baritu Advisory Education348 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Committee, and there is aColour Advisory Education Council, and the
reports of the Colour Council are sent to us, and also thentu Coun-
cil.
Mr. G~oss: Now, with respect to the council itself, to which 1wanted
to confinemy question for a moment, of which you said there are 29
members, does the function of thiç cauncil with respect to the Republic
as a whole deal with Native or Bantu, Coloured and White education
affairs?
Rlr. RAUTENBACH 1:have already stated that the Act simply states
CO-ordination-to enunciate the general pnnciplesof education for the
country as a whole-without mentioning Whites.
Mr.GROSS :nd in practice, and in operation, do you deal with al1the
ethnic groups-Whites, etc.?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H :en the hlinister concerned, the hlinister of Bantu
Education, through the Aiinisterof Education, Arts and Science ap-
proaches the council, then we deal with that1have already said that a
Cornmittee of Cabinet, which means the Government, did approach this
council to deal with al1the groups in connection with thiç matter of the
CO-ordination of their education tvith the changing economy and wider
provision for technical educatiofor al1groupç-that was clearly stated
in Our directive.
Mr. G~ass: So that if1 understand the answer correctly, the council
does on occasion deal with education problems pertaining to al1 of the
ethnic groups in the Republic?
Mr. RAUTENBAC n :the Republic.
Mr. GROÇS: Yes. Could you explain to the Court whether the reason
why there are no non-Whites among the 29 is based on anything other
than a racial criterion?
Mr. RAUTENBAC l'es1 do not think it is based on a racial criterion,
it is based on the fact of South Africa giving domicile to a collection of
comrnunities, and these communities are not simply separated by way
of race,they are also separated by way of ethnic groupethnic group,
where people belong more or less to the same race.
Air.GROSS :hen if 1 asked you whether the exclusion of non-\'hites
from membership on the council is based upon ethnic considerations,
would you have a different answer tamy question?
hlr. RAUTENBAC1 Hcannot get that quite ciearly.
Mr. G~oss:1will state it more simply, if 1may, Mr. President. 1sthere
any reason other than an ethnic onewhy there are no non-Whites on the
council?
Mr. RAUTENRACY He:s,there is this reason, which is part and parce1
of the whole policy or programme, and that is the different levels of
development .
Mr. GROSS: Do you mean to say that there is no non-White in South
Africa who is at a level, culture or language, which would not qualify
him as an individual for membership on the council?
Mr. RAUTENBACH NO, 1 have never said that, suggested that or
believed that, but a member of the council has to deal wiahgtoup, and
Professor Kgnari of Turfioop, who is Chairman of the Bantu Council,
deals with Bantu education, advises the Minister of Bantu Education;
and it is not a matter that he is neithefitnor suitable nor able person
to sit with us-he could sit witus. Asregards intellectual equipment he
is the equal of many of my colleagues, if not their superior. WITNESSBS AND EXPERTS
349
[Pubtic henri~igof5 October39651
Mr. GROSS . ould YOU advise the Court what ismeant by, in your
statement, "Proiessor Kgnari of Turfloop, who isChairman of the Baiitu
Counci1"-the Bantu Councilin this context refers to what?
Jlr. RAUTEKBAC Hhe Bantu Council refers to the Bantu Advisory
Cammittee, the Advisory Cornmittee on Uantii Education. It is the
oppositenumber of the body of which 1am Chairrnan; where my council
is the National Advisory Education Council, this isacouncil specifically
imtituted for a cornmittee or a body to advise the Minister of Bantu
Education on Bantu education.
Mr. GROSS : see.When you Say in your testimony that he "could sit
with us", what did you mean by that?
hlr.RAVTENBAC Hh:at was in reply to your (luestion whetherinthe
whoIe of South Africa, there was no man who Iiad the civilization, the
culture, to be able to sit with us-thawas my reply tothat, inestimate
of theman's abilities-hisintellectual abilities, his cultural development,
etc.
Mr.GROSS : sec.1 do not mean to pursue this at too great length, but
just for clarification co1lrefer to pag348, szrpra,of the sarne verbatim
record at which, in response to a question byme whether there was any
reason other thanan ethnic one why there were no non-Wutes on the
council, yoiir response was: "Yes, there is this reason, which is part and
parce1 of the whole policy or programme, and that isthe different levels
of development"; could 1ask you what your reference to "different levels
of developrnent" meant in that context?
Mr. ~IAUTENHAC The:different levels of developinent in that context
meant that the Bantu groups or units or communities had as yet not as
comrnunities reached, for instance,thesanie level of development as the
Cape Coloured people, or the Indians, or the Whites. There was stilla
certain lag in dcvelopment of the community as a whole.
Mr. CROSS :hen is icorrect to interpret yourtestimony to mean that
because of the different levels of development between or among various
groups, the capncitp of an individiial is takeii as irrelevant to the question
of membership on a council of thisortwkich deals witk al1groups?
hlr. ~IAUTENBAC H :annot quite follow your question-would you
kindlp repeat it?
Rlr. GROSS: Starting from your reference to the different levels of
development and your explanation ofwhat it meant in this contextmy
question is whether this irnplies thnt an individual who is a member af
particular group but individually capable of senring in this capacity, like
Professor Kgnari, for example, wliornyou mentioned-that the individual
capacity or ability of that persoisconsidered irrelevant to the question
of whether or not he could servas a member of your council?
Mr. RAUTENBACH N:O,itis not irrelevant, but what is really relevant
is that I'rofessor Kgnari, with his abilities, his inteI1cctual equipment, 1s
a greatcr authority on Bantu education than on the education of Euro-
peans, and his best service in South Africaat the present stage can be
given to the Bantu community. Ifhe were to help advise on the White
commiinity, if that had been the directive for hiç council, then of course
it wouId be different ,bhe waç appointed specifically Chairman as an
educational leader in the Bantu community to guide and lead this
committee to advise the Ministerof Bantu Education on Bantu education. SOUTH WEST AFRICA
hfr. GROSS : do not mean to hold you to this particular individual-1
take him as an example because you have referred to him in your
testirnony-but what 1am anxious to get at from the standpoint of the
Court's fuller understanding of the policy underlying the exclusion of
non-Whites from membershp in the council of which you are Chairrnan
which deals with problems of al1 the ethnic groups, Whites and non-
Whites alike, is whether the policy of exclusion is based upon anything
other than membership of an otherwise gifted individual in a certain
ethnic group? This is the point of my question to you.
Mr. ~UTENBACH :1am afraid there is a misapprehension. I said in my
testimony yesterday afternoon that there was nothing in the Act, Act
86 of 1962, the Act on the National Advisory Education Council, to
prevent any minister from requesting through the blinister of Education,
Arts and Sciencethat my council should advise on a educational matter;
that is what I said, but we cannot on our own initiative advise the
hlinister of Bantu Education or,for that rnatter, the Minister of Coloured
Education, Department of Coloured Affairs, or on Indian affairs. I think
the record will show that.
Mr. G~oss: I have no doubt it does, and I did not mean to imply
anything to the contrary. You Say,as I understood, you testified with
respect to this matteby qualifying it by the use of the phrase "on your
own initiative", did you not, or words to that effect?
hlr.RAUTENBAC YH:s; 1did not use the words "on Ourown initiative",
but 1 used the words another minister may, through the Minister of
Education, Arts and Science (and that is the hlinister dealing with the
educatjon of Mites) request my councii toadvise, and that hashappened
once.
obviously, as effectively as possible if the request were made-this is
reaUy the point 1 am directing your attention to. Now, starting from
that point of departure, would you regard it, from the standpoint of an
expert in this field, as relevantaconsideration of such a question that
there would be direct and continuous participation of representatives of
groups who might be affected bp your recommendations?
Mr. RAUTENBACH I :think there should be communication, and the
Act under which my council works prescribes tliat our recommendations
should be made in consultation with the various education departments,
bodies,organizations and perçonswho have an interest in education.
hlr. GROÇS: The communication would be most effectively performed
in wtiat manner?
hlr. RAUTENBACIH n:this case, on the occasion of a visit to the Bantu
Collegeof the North, 1 visited Professor Kgnan, who is Chairrnan of the
Bantu Education Cornmittee, and mentioned the fact that my council
had received a directive from a Cabinet committee including, of course,
the minister under whom he and his coHeagues work, the Minister of
Bantu Education, to the effect that \ve should bring forward suggestions
and plans for the CO-ordinationof the education of al1groups \viviththe
changing economy, and for more extensive provision for technicaleduca-
cation, and we had a long discussion on this matter.
hlr. GROÇÇ:In connection with the function of assuring CO-ordination
in the sense you have described, that would involva continuing problem
and a continuing interrelationship, would it n,between the educational
policies of the various groups? WITNESSES AKD EXPERTS
35=
MR. RAUTENBACHT :hat would depend on the type of directive we
received, on the type of recommendations we rnake at a certain stage.
Now it happened in this case that after having gone into the whole
matter over the course o18 months, and consulting with the Department
of Bantu Elducation and its officials, with the various other departments
of education and their officials, with the Prirne Minister's Economic
Advisory Council, with the Department of Labour and a11concerned, in
May of this year we had a joint meeting to deal with these matters and
to formula.te Our findings,and our findings were that at' the present
moment the various education departments, and particularly theDe-
partment of Bantu Education, were carrying on to the best of their
ability that type of work which was mentioned inOur directive; and we
recommentied to the Minister of Bantu Education through the Minister
of Education, Arts and Science-that is the prescribed way-that that
should be accepted asone of Ourfindings. We also madeother recommen-
dations, wliichIcould mention if the Court is interested in those recom-
mendations.
lfr. G~oss:Subject to the wishes of the Court in this matter1 may
refer to the problem that you have just describ1understoodyou to Say
that this involveda course ofsome 18mont hs of ci~ncentration and study?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es.
Mr. GROS: Dt~ringthat period, Sir, 18 months, would there be any
reason, which you could advise the Court, why it would not have been
a feasible and very wise idea to have members of other groups sitting
as full menibers of your Council?
Mr. RAU'TENBAC YHe:. After this discussion with Professor Kgnthe
leadingman, the Chairman, he told me,and 1have the statiçtics to prove
that, that at the present juncture the greatest problem in the sphere of
Bantu education was to get more pupils to progress beyond the primary
stage intothe secondary stage because occupational training, and par-
ticularly technical training, take place at the level of secondaryeducation,
and the greatest problem was not, at this stage, according to him, to
make provision for further technical training,further schools, but to
try and retain a larger number of pupils or students in the schools, so
that we cari get more pupils staying in theeco~idary schools and then,
through a process of differentiation, bring them into the various streams,
and one of thestreams would be the stream of technical education,and
fie told me that he did not think it was worthwhile pursuing the subject
any further with him.
Mr. GROSS :his would be an important problem, no doubt, would it
not, Sir, in the general scheme of education in tlie Republic?
Mr. RAU'TENBACH r: is an important probleni throughout the whole
worId, the whole of Africa, and the Republic.
Mr. GROSS:Now, Sir, if 1may revert to my question, which perhaps 1
did not make cIear, would it have been feasible and wise, from the point
ofview of your expertise in the education field, to have had a non-White,
or one or more non-Whites, sitting as full members of the Council dunng,
let us Say, this period of 18 months, when these problems were under
study? May I just ask you, Sir, would it have been feasible?
Mr. RAUTENBAC HO:,1 do not think it would have been féasible. 1
could give the reasons why 1think it would not have been feasible, and
the one is that outside Our Professor Kgnari and two other gentlemen
who have professorial rank in the Bantu university colleges-inthe one SOUTH WEST AFRICA
352
case a Professor of Psychology, in the other a Professor of Education-the
highest post held at present by a Bantu is that of a Sub-inspector of
Education. The result is that the expertise, as you cal1it, is to be found
at the present moment more amongst the European officials and officers
of the Education Department than amongst these, and Professor Kgnari
himself is not an expert, neither am 1an expert,in the field of occupa-
tional education. In fact,I am not an expert outside of university edu-
cation-1 am a generalist outside the field of university education.
Mr. G~oss: The fact is, isit notSir, that the reason of policy to which
you referred yesterday, which underlies the exclusion of non-Whites from
membership on the Council is related to the ethnic origin rather than
the individual quality or capacity of the person?Isthat not so, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBACH T: at is SO,but is only half of the mattThe other
half is so closely reIated to the stage of development of that ethnic
group-that is at the background of the whole programme of separate
deveIopment or separate education.
Mr. GROSS:But you want the Court $0 understand, Sir, that becâuse
of the level of development of the ethnic group to which you refer, that
a person who is a member of that group bythe classification of the census,
but who is above that level, could not, by that very reason, adviseyou,
as a member of the Council, effectively with respect tothe problems of
his group as a wh'ole?
Mr. RAUTENBACH H:e coula advise me in that field where he has
specialized knowledge. On the Bantu Education Committee there is, to
my knowledge, no specialist in that sphere, so whjt shoul1 get another
generalist to advise me where1am also a generalist?1should, inthis case,
seek the assistance, and, according to the Act we can seek the assistance,
of any one of the JO,OOO European teachers, or for al1 that, of the, 1
suppose, 26,000 Bantu teachers inthe country. But it is a matter of the
efficiency and the suitability of the man's knowledge on this ad hoc
Committee, this ad hocproblem.
Mr. G~oss:Sir, would there be,so far as you are aware, anything in the
governmental policy of the Republic which would preclude full member-
ship of non-Wfiiteç on the Advisory Council?
Mr. RAUTEN~AC : Hes.
Mr. GKOSS : ould you explain to the Court what that governmental
policy would be, Sir?
hfr. RAUTENBACHT :hat governmental policy is the policy of separa-
tion, also on this kind of body.
Mr, GROSS: And that would be the underlying reason, would it, Sir,
that might, for example, preclude you from ma.king a recommendation
to add a non-White to the Council?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es, but that is, a1 Say again, not the complete
story. The complete one is that the underlying reason for that is, again,
the different levelsofdevelop~nent and then, thegenerai policy of the
Government at this stagenot to pay so much attention to the individual
as the developrnent of the comrnunity as a whole.
hlr. G~oss: Now, Sir, may Iask you one further question on this line?
Perhaps it would lead somewhere else and Imight follow it up, but the
question 1 have in mind is, with respect to the function of the Advisory
Council regarding "White education", would that not involve and include
consideration of the relationship between White education and non-
White education as a problem of White education in the area? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 353
hlr. RAUTENBACH Yes. It certainly would, Mr. President, in this
respect, that educationhas to be CO-ordinated with manpower problems
and with economic development and the manpower of the Republic of
South Africa is not only the White manpower but a11 the manpower,
including the uToman-powerfor al1that, and the result is that when one
deals with education, al1 of us should look where the manpower is to
be found aiid the result is that one has to take note in a general way of
what is forthcoming from Bantu education, frtirn Coloured education,
from Indiari education and from European educiition.
Mr. G~oss: Considering, for example, the problem of segregation or
otherwise cif universities in South Africa, to which we shall turn our
attention sliortly, Sir, but inç context, in considering that problem,
you would, of course, concede readily, no doubt, that the interests of
Whites and non-Whites alike are involved in policy decisions regarding
that matter. In respect of the functioning, does the Council have any
direct or indirect present or potential responsibility with respect to mat-
ters withinthat area of concem-segregation of univerçity instruction?
Mr. RAV~ENBAC HO:. My Council is limited by the Act and by the
division in the Act to education outside the unix~ersitysphere-primary
education, secondary education and tertiary, non-university education.
Mr. GROSS:So that with regard to the area of concern which you have
just clearly described to the Court, in that ares the policy underlying
the separation or segregation in the secondary sphere, let Say, would
be a matter within the present or potential scope of the Advisory Council,
would it, Sir?
hrr.RAUTENB~~C HO:, we are empowered to make recommendations
on sound principles of a general nature on education and we had a
directive from the Minister to pay attention, inthe first instance,to
White education and then we have this one directive on the CO-ordination
of education of thevarious groups with a changiiig economy and further
provision fcirtect-inical education.
Mr. GROSS:SOthat your function-the functicin of your Council-ifI
understand you, proceeds from the point of departure of the directive
which you described? 1sthat correct?
Mr. RAU'~ENBAC 'es, that is so.
Mr. GROÇÇ: Now, in your consideration of the matters which fa11
within the scope of your Council, do you, at any timc in your deliberations
or studies,consider whether the directive itself is well or ill-founded, or
should be modified in any respect?
Mr. RAUTENBACH W:e could do that. Wc have not done that so far,
u7ehave not found the reason toask such questions, but if sucamatter
were to arise1 could see no reason why this should not be done or could
not be dont:.
Mr. GROSS: IVould it be fair to say that the functioning of your
Council then, Sir, and that you as Chairman, are within the four walls
of the scheine of the government policas embodied in the directive? 1s
that correct ?
Mr. RAU'TENBAC Hes.
Mr. G~oss: Could you then, under those circumstances . . .?
Mr. RAU~TENBAC Now you are bringing forward another point.
Mr. GROSS:I have not finished my question, Sir.
Mr. RAUTENBACH 1:am sorry.
Mr.GROSS:1thougbt you merely answered to niy previous question.. .354 SOUTH M'EST AFRlCA
hlr.]~AUTEXB.~CH: Xo, it is one of your questions in the series.
Air.CROSS :es,1 intended it to be so, SIr\vas just on the point of
asking you whether following from that you would be good enough to
describeto the Court ,s bneffy as fairly mabe done, the natureof the
government directive which forms the basis of your function in this
respect, that is, with regard to separation or segregation?
Mr. RAUTENBACB Hy:implication-that was what 1 wanted to Say.
By implication, 1 could note in that directive that government policy
had to be borne in mind and by that 1 mean that part of the directive
was that no public declaration should be madby the National Advisory
Education Council on this matter, but its decisions should be of a
confidential nature and should be transmitted, in ench case, to the
department concerned, to the Minister conccrned; that means to Say,
our recommendations, if recommendations had been forthcoming on this
one matter; but certainly recommendations were forthcoming, one was
that as soon as it is practicably feasible, the Government should, or the
Department of Bantu Education should, make primary education com-
pulsory, andas soon as possible after thsecondary education. Llredid
not announce that publicly because our directive had been that Our
recommendations should be transmitted to the Minister concerned.
hlr.G~oss: 1 would like to pursue that. Perhaps it will give you an
opportunity to clarify or add. With respect to the question of the nature
of the directive, you have now referred, Sir, to the matter of compulsory
education. Leaving that aside for one moment, are there any other
substantive aspects of the directives with regard to the policy of sepa-
ration or apartheid?
hir.RAUTENDACH: NO. There was no clear statement or directive. It
was by implication, as1mentioned, hlr. President.
Mr. GROSS : hat was by implication?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hhat we should report, not directly to the Ministry
of Education, Arts or Science or that the Chairman-1 am empowered
to make public announcements-should make no announcements but
each of these recommendations should be sent to the department con-
cerned, in thicase the Department of Bantu Education.
Mr. GROSS : ould itbe correctto conclude, Sir, that the directives
under which you operate do not relate directly to the problern or policy
of ethnic, racial or group separation?
Mr. RAUTENBAC No: 1 think, Mr. President, 1 could best describe
the whole situation i1 were to Say that the directive and the Acts are
of such a nature that we proceed from that as a premise that there shall
be separation or apartheid.
Mr. GROSST :hat isthe major premise of the Government?
Mr. RAUTENHAC That isthe major premise of the Government and,
by implication, it is the major premise for the CounciI of whic1am
Chairman.
Mr. GROSS N:ow, with respect tothe problemofcompulçory education
to which you referred, thereiscompulsory education now with respect
to IZ'hites, therenot, Sirin South Africa?
Mr.RAUTEXBAC YHe:. In the northerpart, in Transvaal, therhas
been compulsory education since rgo7,but not before that date.
hlr. G~oss: And areyou aware of the situation in South West Africa?
1 may say that the record shows that there is compulsory education
for the\hites there. WITNESSES -4ND EXPERTS 355
3lr.RAUTENBAC Ye:, 1am aware of that.
Mr. GROSS : ow, Iunderstood you to testify that, with respect to the
problem of compulsory education, it was a directive that as soon as
practicable, or words to that effe.t..
air.RADTEXBACH NO: , it was not a directiveIt was a recommen,
dation. It Xsone of the recommendations coming from this Joint Com-
mittee of the Education Council and various other departmental re-
presentatives to the Ministers concerned that, in the case of Bantu,
Coloured and Indian education, as soon as it is practically feasible
primary education should be made compulsory and afterwards secondary
education should be made compulsory and thert: was a reason for that.
hIrGROSSW : ithrespect to non-Whites, you were referring to, Sir?
Mr. RAVTENRAC YHs.
&Ir.G~oss: Now, would ÿou esplain to the Court what the reasonwas
for the recommendation?
Mr. RAUTENRAC The: reason for the recomnendation was what 1
have already mentioned this morning: that unless more Bantu pupils
remained to the end of the primary school,completed the primary school
course, entered the secondary school course, did part of itcompleted
it, we would not be able to attain theother objective of training more
Bantu in occupational training or technical training.
Mr.GROSSS :ir,are you, on the basis your reading of the authorities
you have cited with respect to South West Africa, to wit,Dr. Van Zyl
and the Odendaal Commission and, Ibelieve, one other, are you suffi-
ciently farriiliar with the situation in South West Africa to express an
opinion as :in expert with regard to the problem of compulsory education,
let us Say, in the urban areas in South West Africa. Do you have any
views on tliat, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBACIH :m not an expert in that sphere,but I could
express a view.
Mr. Giioss:Weil, would you pleaçe do so, Sir, and specifically with
respect to the problem, if any,arising in urban areas as distinguished,
let us say, from northern territories or other areas?
Mr. RAUTENRAC MH:. President,1see what Mr. Gross is aiming ai
now and he questioned Dr. Van Zyl very closely on these matters, and
now that 1see what he isgetting at1 would prefer not to answer those
questions. Dr. Van Zyl is an expert on those matters.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, that is with respect to South West Africa. Now,
with respect to South Africa itself, would you care to express an opinion
any,arising in thefielof compulsory
with respect to the differences, if
othertareas of South Africa!an areas of South Afnca itself and the
residentiai areas, the urban areas and the Bantu homelands?o the Bantu
hlr.GROSS :es, Sir, to start with.
hfr.RAUTENBAC Hnd must 1 take it that you are asking me what
compulsory?an advance for not, at this stage, making primary education
Mr. G~oss: No, Sir. Thatmay enter into your answer, Sir, isup to
you,but my question is whether thereare anÿ aspectsof the problems
underlying compulsory education which arise in the urban areas
areas?guished from, or are different from those which arise in other356 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
3lr. RAUTEBBAC 'es, 1 think it stands to reason, 3Ir. Prcsident,
that the urban areas are more densely populated areas, that children
are within easier reach of the schools themselvea, whereain the Bantu
homelands, outside of those homeIands, where the community has a way
of living in villages or cities, in many of these homelancls they live in
family groups, cornparatively far removed from each other. l'hen the
third group of Bantu reside on the farms and, excepting for very big
farms where the people farm in a big way, these are still more sparsely
spread.There is a difference,hen, as between the one area and the other.
Mr. GROSS : ow, Sir. with respect to that difference, if 1 may pursue
that for justa moment, you have referred, 1 understand, to congestion
of population as one factor. Are there any elements involved in the
problem, let us Say, of social change that are peculiar to the environment
of the urban areas which may not be found elçewhere?
Mr. RAUTENBAC> HI:rPresident, investigation has shown that the
idea of such a vast difierence between the Uantu residing in the urban
area and in the more rural areas, iyou can call them that, is not what
many people thought. 1have read an article in the prestigious American
journal Foreign Anairs by a Bantu journalist, residing outsideSouth
Africa, who was born and raised in an urban area. He statcs that there
iç a continuity between the Bantu communities in their homeIands and
those inthe urban residential areas like the stringakite.
That was published in Foreign Aflairsfairly recently. Then, mernbers
of my stafof the Social Anthropology Department had fora number of
years received agrant from the Social Research Corincil to make a study
of the so-called urbanized Rantu in the Bantu residential aareasof the
city of Pretoria, where1 reside. They also discovered that in many im-
portant respects the so-called urbanized Bantu still has his roots in the
rural areas in his own cornmunity.
Mr.G~oss: Sir, you have testified, as 1 have just reminded youthat
the Odendaal Commission report was one of those authorities on which
you have based your expertise with respect to South West Africa. Now,
1 should like, i~ithe context of Our present exchange, to refer to the
Odendaal Commission report, page 425. Have you a copy of the report
before ÿou, Sir? Ifyou turn to page425, Sir, 1 would call your attention
to paragraph 1430 at thebottom of the right-hand column on page 425.
Do you find paragraph 1430?
Alr.RAUTENBAC 1Hhave found it.
Mr. GROSS . OW, 1 should like, in the context of this discussion and
adhering as closely aspossible to the problem of social change and the
rootage of the Uantu-if 1 may use that phrase-tu call your attention
to the following several sentences in fhat paragraph.
Startingwith the first sentence, I realize, Sthat you have stated
that you do not wish to tcstifwith respect to South West Africa on this
matter. Do 1 understand you correctly there, Sir, befor1 read this?
Mr. RAUTENBAC YHes, unlesç it is similar to a situation in the Re-
public.
MT. GROSS: Well, you have anticipated my point there. Thercfore,
in that context, which is precisely wha1 have in mind, 1 should like to
read the following first sentence. This is under the heading. you will
notice, Sir, of "Transitionfrom a subsistence economy to a money
economy" and it reads as follows:
"Human beings tend to settle in the environment in which they WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 357
earn a living. Income and occupational group furthermore deter-
mines whether an individual belongs to an cconomically upper,
middle or lower class. Thcreia correlation hetweeii occupation and
occupational group, on the one hand, and economic and social
status on the other."
Would you have any question of agreeing with that, Sir? Do jTou
agree with that ?
IllrRAUTENBAGIHa :greewith that.
hlr. GROSS:Then 1 would liketo call your attention-skipping the
next sentence or two-to the following language:
"The resultjs social stratification according to incorne and level
of occupation. A process of Westernization folloms, as well as
adjustrnent to the economic, social and spiritual requirernents af
differeilt type of community life. aprocess of one-sided imitation,
the eccinomic standards of living of the Whiteç are accepted, with
a resultantincrease in expendituron the necessities of life,housing,
furniture, recreationaand transport facilities, education,etc."
Now, kecping in mind the reference to education in that context, if
you agree with this general analysis of the Odendaal Commission, xvould
you express an opinion, Sir, regarding the implications, in the fieof
education, regarding the resultant increased expenditures on education,
fvhatspecifically would that imply with respect to thc object of education
for which those espenditures were necessary?
The PRESIDENT D:oes the witness, Mr. Gros, first agree with the
general sta1:ement?
Rlr.GROS: Yes, firstdo you agree with this statement?
Mr. RAUTENBAC IVjth thisstatement? \%'hichjnterpretationda you
mean?
Mr. GROSS : enecally do you agree or disagree?
MT. RAUTENBAC 1Hagree with this statement as a description of the
externals of the situation-the outward, visible things, the economic
interdependence which is to be found in çuch an area. Ido not agree
tliat the essential"Africanness"of any individual is changed by these
outward changes.
Mr. G~oss: 1see,Sir. Now, with respect to the reference to education,
and you note the use of the word in that quoted section. . .
Mr. F~UT'ENBAC : H hich are you referring to?
Mr. GHOSS: The sentence to lvhich 1 call your special attentionmyor
question is:
"ln a process of one-sided imitation. the economic standards of
livingof the Whites are accepted, with a resultant increase in
expenditure on the necessities of life, housing, furniture, recreational
and transport facilitics, cducation, etc."
1 focus on the word "education" and ask you, Sir, to restate my earlier
questions, whether ÿou \vil1espress your opinion concerning the objec-
tives of education in this context, for which increased expenditures
become necessary ?
Mr. TG\UTEXHACH If: this is what the question amounts to, whether
this outward change also should bring about a change in educational
practice, if thats the question, themy reply isyes to a certain extent
it should, ticcause education shouId fit the meniber of thecommunity
forhis work and his life in hi5 ~omniunity.358 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. GROSS A:nd the community in this respect is the comrnunity in
which he lives and works?1sthat notço, Sir?
Mr.RAUTENBAC Hh:t is the community in which he lives and works
and hopes to liveand work.
Mr. GROSS A:nd hopes to live anwork?
Mr. RAUTENBA CHes.
Mr. GROSS :nd there are perçons in that category,so far asyou
know, in the urban areas of both South Africaand South West Africa
who live and work and who hope to live and work inhose areas, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Yes, they do also live and work in those areas.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir,and there are persons within that category?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hes.
Mr. G~oss: Many of them 1 suppose, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBA CHes.
Mr. G~oss: Now, when you refer to external or outward change or
sign,Sir, when the reference is madeproposof that statement in your
response, when the Odendaal Commission refers to, among other things,
"the economic standards of living of the Whites are acceptedu-you
mean to Say, Sir, there iç only a manifestatioor externalizationof
acceptance-is that the way you interpret this?
Mr. RAUTENBAC He:, that is in accordance with the authwhich
1 quoted-the Bantu journalist who wrote on the misIeading aspects of
this external development, where Europeans are inclined to think that
the essential manas said, has changed his Africanness, anwe regard
him as an imitation of the White-Ican read that if j7ouwanit.
Mr.GROÇS : ell, Si1,won't invite you to-youmay if you wish, Sir,
if the Court wishes-iisup to you, Sir, in answenng my question.
Mr. RAUTENBAC1H t:ink 1would like to have that on record.
Mr. G~oss: Will you give the citation please.
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hçeern to have left some of rny stuff at home.
The PRESIDENT D:OYOU mean at the hotelor in South Africa?
Mr. ~UTENBACH: Ihave got it here.
Mr. GROSS C:ouldYOU read the most pertinent portioof. . .
hfr. RAUTENBACIH t :is very briefIt is written by Mr. Exekiel
MphaIale a Bantu writer, born in South Africa and now living in Kenya,
raised in the Bantu residential area in Pretorand this is what he
says:
"Any visitor, who sees an urban African smartly dressed in
American style of clothes-in short, the visitowho sees him in
town like one who is committed to it and liveç by its assumptions
maythink the African has wholly surrendered his traditional values
to an urban Iife that a bad imitation of the Whiway of Iifbut
there isa definite Iine of continuity in African cultures which acts
in individuals and groups like the string by which the kite is held to
the ground." ("The Fabric of African Cultures",Foreign Afiairs,
JU~Y 1964.1
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir, and that iif 1 amnot mistaken, Mphalale iit
not, Sir?
Mr.RAUTENBA CHes.
Bfr. GROSS: UTeare familjar withhis %vorksSir. Do YOU happen to
have read any of his workç in which he expresseanopinion regarding
segregationand education? WITXEÇÇEÇ AND EXPERTS 359
Mr. ~VTENBACH: NO. I receive Foreign Aoairs and 1 read Foreign
AQairs.
Blr.GROSS: NOW,to corne back for a moment to the question of the
"externalization".1 was referring, Sir, to the Odendaal Commission
statement that the persons, and they referred, Sir, to "human beingç"
not to N7hiteç or Blacks or anybody else. They referred in the sentence,
to which 1 called your attention, in which education is rnentioned, that
"the economic standaràs of living of the Whites are acceptedH-anthis
is where 1 paused before. Are they accepted, or are they not, so far as
your own observation isconcerned, in the areils with ~vhich yoü are
familiar ?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Th:ey are accepted as objectives which must be
kept in mind, which must be strivedfor,and let us Say, which mustbe
imitated.
Mr. GROSS :l1 right, Sir, puttinimitation asidc, 1 suppose that
imitation could be a form of flattery?
Mr. RAUTENBAC It s, and it is a very uçeful way of learning too.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. And witIi respect to whether it is imitation,
or some original Native genius alongside it as well-letus leave that
aside, Sir.
Mr. RAUTENBAC H :y 1 qualify that word? By imitation 1 mean
accepting it from an environment asan cxample which could be usedby
oneself.
Mr. GROSSI:n the same way, Sir et us Saythat a four or five year
old White child learns from his environment, woulyou çay?
31r.RAUTEXBAC lHe:, Sir.
Mr. G~oss :Now, ivith regard to the neccssities of life leading to in-
creased expenditure for cducation,1 am still focusing on that because
it is, of course, within the field of your expertise, you have mentioned
congestion in urban areas, concentration of popiilation, 1thnk FU
haire mentioned the requircment folearningin order,I amparaphrasing
loosely, to improve one's economic welfare-wouldyou accept that, Sir?
Mr. RAUTESBAC1 H:ccept that.
3lr.G~oss: Now would you add to that also, Sir, the requirement or
objective in theimite society", as it is called in the Odendaal Commis-
sion report,the desirability or othenvise of full self-realizainthe
modern world, in intellectual as well as econornic terrns?
Nr. RAUTENBAC MHy:reply to that is most certainly t1ado accept
it as a justifiable aspiration,economically, socially, culturalland
politically.
Mr. GROSS : ith respect to compulçory educa.tion, which exists with
regard to Whites, areyou aware that there are approximately 100 per
cent. of the Whites of school age in Southst Africa, who are enrolled
in the schools there?
Mr. RAUTENBAC1H am aware of that.
, Mr. GROSÇ: 1sthe same thing true in South Africa, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC The:same is true of South Africa.
hlr.GROSS: WIiereas now 1 wiIl cal1 to your attention the follow!ng
factswhich are undisputed in the record, in order to elicit your opinion
with regard to comparable situationsinthe Republic itselfI call your
attention to the enrolment figures in the Odendaal Comrnisçion report,
page 239,table 8.7.Incidentally, hfr. Preçident, parentheticthis,
not previously been the subject of examination and is not mere repeti- SOUTH IVEST AFRICA
360
tion-I thought I n~ouldexplain that to avoid anymisunderstanding of
the tables because there are many tables being cited. This is table87
on page 239, which refers, as you notice, to distribution of pupils in
standards in the southern sector in962 and breaks it down, as you can
see, bothby standards and by sections within the sectoYoy will notice,
Sir, that StandardsVil, VIII, IX and X ...
The PRESII)ENT:What page is this?
Mr. G~oss: Page 239,Sir, the bottom of the left-hand column of the
Odendaal report.
The PRESIDENT That is table87,is it?
hlr. G~oss: Table 87.
The PRESIDENT Thank you very rnuch.
blr. GROSS: Iwas afraid for a moment, 1 had my roman numerals
confused, u-hich often happens, Sir. After StandaVI, that is Standards
VlI, VIII, IX and S, there are no pupils in the homelands enrolled in
those Standards-that is correct,içit not, Sir?
hlr.RAUTENBAC H-:.
hlr. GROSS:This is, of course, "homelands", 1 may have mis-spoken,
sometimes known as "Reserves" in the southern sector-this is entirely
related to the southern sector.Now in the rural areas in the southern
sector, outsidethe Reserves this would be, in theso-calledWhiteecon-
omy, there are, as you will notice, five pupils enrolled in StandVI11
and none in Standards IX and X-that is correct, Sir, is it not? Now
then we come to towns which have otherwise been referred to as urban
areas outside the Reservesin the southern sector and wefind, Sir, that there
are four, i1962 this is, enrollcd in StandaIX and three in StandardX
and then finally on the total enrolment in the next column you will find
the same figures repcated-that is four and three respectively. SOthe
only pupils, as it appcars from this table, enroin theschool çystem in
South West Africain Standards IX and X, are in the urban areas outside
the Re~er%~es-tha ts correctSir,içit notfrom this table?
Mr. RAUTENBA :CHhat is correct.
Dlr. GROSS: And would you advise the Court whether a comparable
situation existin South Africa?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hes, a comparable situationesists in South Africa
to the bestof my knowtedge.
&Ir.G~oss: Now, Sir, the figures1 suppose would be higher because
the population is higher?
Mr. RAUTENBAC YH:s, and the school attendance in the Kepubljc js
83 per cent. between the age o7 and 14 and in South West Africa it 1s
more or less lik46 per cent.-there is that difference.
Mr. G~oss: Now, would you in termsof the.. .1 revert to the excerpt
from the Odendaal Commission to which 1 have been referring earlier,
that isto Say on page425,could you please indicate whether the fact that
the only enrolments in those Staridards, such as tliey are, are frop the
urban areas, that thistvould indicate special problernç prevailiiithe
urban areas with regard to education?
Rfr.RAUTENBACY He:s, would rather . . .
The PRESIDENT:Mr. Groçskopf.
Mr. GROSSKOPIF f 1 may just object to the form of that question,
there is noevidence thrit these enrolments are from the urban areas-these
are peoples at school in the urban areas and, Mr. Presidcnt, OU wlll
recall the evidencof Dr. Van Zyl that the highest schools are al1situated WITNESSES .4ND EXPERTS 361
in the urban areas for students from the whole ?èrritory. So that the
fom in which the question was put is, withrespect, inmy submission not
an accuratc one.
The PRESIDEX T\r.Grass, svoulciyou put the question again so that I
can see precisely what thc point in issue is.
hlr.CROSS:1 tl~inkthe point,if 1may say so, isextremely tvell taken.
1 had made an assumption here with respect to the origiri of the students,
so to speak, enrolled in these Standards. Ithas been pointed out by my
friend that this figure bears no information with respect to whether, for
example, tliese three students enrolled in the urban areas had come
from, for example, Ovamboland.
Noxv Sir,in order to clear that point up, are yctu aware,Sir,in respect
of the situa.tion in South Africa, the Kepublic itself, whether thc enro1-
ment of Bantu students in the, let us s:ty, Standards IX and X, would
represent students who come from outsrde the urban areas and go to
school in the urban areas?
Mr. RAUTENRACH 1c:ould not Say.In the case of theadults there isan
influx control but not in the case of these youiigsters under 18 so far
as I knorv, so thatit tvouldat the best of times be rather dificult to Say
where they corne from. 13ut 1 happen to know something about the
origin of university students and the university students come £rom
both . ..at least they have their home, their domicile is in many cases
in the urban areas and in many cases in the rural areas,but they attended
schools where they could find a school andthe school is generallp situated
where there isthe greatest density of population.
At the present stage of development, the Bantu child is as often as
not brought to the school. Thcre will be reached another stage where the
school, as far as possible, wî11be brought to the child. That is happening
on the lower level of the primary school already, in the case of therural
school orfaim school.The school isbeing brought to thechild there.At the
present timt:,nt secondary level, thechilisstill beibrought tothe school.
hlr. G~oss:Before I return to this, may I juçt ask you,Sir,in connec-
tian with the problem of location of schools to which you have referred,
from the pointof viewof education expertisewouIdtherebe anyexplanation
for the fact that in South West Africa the St:indards inquestion are to
be found orily in the urban areas?
Jlr. RAUTEKBXC MHr:President, Iam not an experton secondary and
primary ediication. Imade a declaration hcre :it the beginning to testify
as an expert. II I have any expertise, it is in the field of university
education. 'Theother, secondary sphcre of interest is the White education
of primary and secondary schoolchildren and the rest ia third sphere of
interest, but 1an1 no expert on thesc ~natterç.
Mr. G~oss:Al1right, Sir.
h,frI~AUTEKRAC IdHo:not I:iy any daim to be an expert. Dr. Van Zyl
is the expert.
&Ir.GROÇÇ: SOyou would not seek to draw any inferences from the
fact that this isthe situation. In other ivords, you would not have any
opinion with respect to why it is thnt these Ievelsof instruction are to
be found in the urban areas?
&Ir.RAUTEXBAC 1ha:ve opinions but 1 do not daim that they are
opinions of an expert.
RIr.GROSS : rell, SiI \vil1not press you unless you wish to express
the opinion of n witncss.362 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
hIr.~ZAUTENBAC 1 w ould not like to express so many opinions.
IIr. GROSS A:l1right, Sir, Nolu, let us continue with the paragraph,
if 1may, Sir-paragraph 1430-and 1 would like to draw your attention
to the fact that in pursuing this matter-do so because of your reliance
upon the Odendaal Commission for your views with regard to the matter
and ïvith regard to the important aspects of the statements as findings
by the Odendaal Commission. The top of page 427: "The struggle ...",
that is to Say the struggle referred to in the preceding portionhave
left out a sentence to whicI should call your attention.
"As is the case of the ilrhites, artificial needs are created for
them. Family life undergoes a change and imitates the pattern of
the imites. The struggle to live becomes an economic struggle to
provide necessities. Their work and occupation CIcall your attention
to this, Sir], in effect becomeçormative process whlch heIps non-
White workers to adjust to andfitin with the requirements of liviiig
and economic standards of the changed community life to which
they belong and of which they are part."
First of ail,Sir,do you understand the phrase "changed community
life" tore'ferto the sector in ïvhich they work and live and in which they
hope to work and live?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Ye:.
Mr. CROSS N:ow, Sir, with respect tothe reference to: "Their work
and occupation in effect becomes a formative process" and so forth,
wouldyousay that education plaps avital role in the development of that
formative process?
Mr.RAUTEIJBAC Yes, it iprobably the most important.
&Ir.CROSS :OW, one final referencinthis paragraph, tocomplete the
circle of the thought in this very key paragraph in the Odendaal Report
is the following, which istheconclusion of the paragraph itself; I ivill
read it, i1 may :
"The result [which, generally speaking, refers to the result of the
consequences of everything that has gone before] is a process of
Westernization with its typical probiems of backwardness, deterio-
ration of family life, etc., but in many cases also successful adjust-
ment."
Pausing there, would you Say, Sir, from your experience, that there
are many cases of çuccessful adjustment in the sense of this report?
Mr.RAUTENBACH Yes, asfaras my knowledge goes-whicli is limited
-1 would say that there are cases of successful adjustment.
Mr. GROSS : ould you Say that it is one objective of educatioii to
facilitate and expedite that type of adjustment?
Rlr.RAUTENBAC Ye:, if it does not include indoctrinationitdoes
not include the one idea and idcal that the only form of civilizatand
culture is to become \i7estern in every respect, ifthe man chooses to
becorne JVestern, itisalso up to him through self-determinatian, or
freedom, to become that, but 1 have no right to impress that on that
man. Nobody has the right to do it.
Mr. GROSS :The goal Lit says] is always better-paid ernployrnent,
especially for the.. ."
>Ir.RAUTENBAC H :eg pour pardon, where is this?
>Ir.GROSS This is the last few sentenceatthe top ... WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 363
The PRESIDENTT :his is the next sentence to the one Mr. Gross was
reading.
Mr.G~oss: The next sentence to the on1 just read.
Mr. RAU'TENBAW CHl~ichparagraph, please?
in the left-Iland column, Sir.which conti~luesat the top of page 427,
Mr. RAU'TENBAC YHes:, 1 have found it, thank you.
Rlr. G~oss: I just read the paragraph which ended with the phrase
"successful adjustment".Now the next sentence. waç starting to read,
or have read,1 am not sure which:
"Tht: goal is always better-paid employmentespecially for the
is the value attached to school attendance, education and scholast~c
- achievement. A new type of man enierges: a Westemized non-
White side by side with the Western White."
With respect to the "striking feature" which attends this situation
ofsocialchange to which weareaddressing ourselves,"the value attached
Say, Sir, lrom your experience, that that is a correct statement?d you
Bir.RAUTENBAC 1H~:ouldsay it was a perfectly correct statement.
1 can support that with my own experience-the great peaming of the
African people for more and more education and their great expectation
that education wilçolve al1their problems.
Mr. CROSS E:\'ouldyou Say,Sir, that perhaps the single most important
aspect of social development is education?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hw: ould subçcribe tothat fully.
&Ir.GROSSD : oes this, Sir, underly the reason why you perhaps recom-
mended compulsory education as soon as practicable?
hlr. KAUTEXBAC :YHes, that içone of the reasonç weyrecommended
compulsory education.
Jlr.G~oss: Would it be within your knowledge to advise the Court
whether or not if, leus Say, it proved feaçible in the urban areas to
introduce compulsory education for non-Whitcs, considering that it
exists for IVhites, that you would recommend that that be done, where
practicable as welas when practicable?
&Ir.RAUTENBACY He:s, 1 certainly would do that, but taking into
account the wishesofthese people themselves to a certain extent.
hlr. G~oss: And the wishes of these people, Sir, relate to the people
to whom the Odendaal Commissioniçreferring wlien they Say "a striking
feature is the value attached to school attendance" and so forth. Would
they include these peoplin the phrase you used?
blr. RAUTENBACY He:s, but now1must mention this other facet, or
rather aspect, of the matter and that içthat Dr. Van Zyl and his commis-
sion found that there was no widespread wish on the part of the people
in South West Africa, at this stage, to maitcompulsory, but at some
future stage.
Mr. G~oss: Yes,Sir, 1have inmind that testimony when 1aska question
recornmendation whether, in addition to the reference to u7hichYOU
referred to the people as a wholegetaway from the group, or "whole"
aspect of the matter, your recommendation with respect to compulsory
education for non-Whites is based upon feasibility of accomplishment
where possible as well as when possible?364 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Alr.RAUTEXBAC Hertainly.
Mr. Gross: Would you Say, Sir, that, as far as the urban areas are
concerned, in the light of what you have testified about the Odendaal
Commission findings, do they or do they not present a special problem
and a special opportunity with respect to thiç matter of compulsory
education?
hIr. R~UTENBAC H:would Say that the urban areas are somewhat
in advance of rural areas and homelands in this respect.
Mr. G~oss: Did you, Sir, in your recommendation, take into account
the treatment of requisite education to qualify for education in univer-
sities?
Mr. RAUTENBACH I:do not quite get that.
Mr. G~oss: Did you in your analysis of the matter of compulsorq?
education take into account the degree of educational achievernent
requisite toqualifyfor university education?
3Ir.R~UTESBACH: Yes, I had that in the back of my mind, that %r7e
should get more university students; one way of getting more university
students from these communities was to introduce compulsory education
in future at some tirne so that a larger number ivill proceed beyond the
ordinary compulsory stage, which as amle is 16years or Standard VIIT.
Once they have gone up to 16 years, then one could encourage them to
stay on to Standard IX and Standard X and come to the university.
Mr. GROSS: Would this, or wouId it not, have a bearing upon the
followingundisputed facts in the record, out of the Odendaal Commission
report-1 refer to page 157,paragraph 6jo; there are 94 doctors in the
Territory of South \YestAfrica, there is no Rantu doctor93 are White,
and one is classified as "Haster" and practises medicinein Mrindlioek;
with respect to the problern of education generally, would you have an
opinion with respect to why, after these many years ofthe Mandate
administration,there is no Bantu doctor in the Territory of South M'est
Africa?
Nr. RAUTENBAC H :ould suggest that itis owing to general back-
wardness in education, as isthe case in many parts of Africa. 1 happen
to have read through the summary recently of the Odendaal report,
and the statement there is that the real significant development in
education, or the realtart of education, was only after South Africa got
the Mandate in 1921 ;whereas something like Ij per cent. of the popula-
tion had been attending school,noiv in1962 something like 46 per cent.
were attending school. 1 have a list here of the numberofgradiiatesin
1962throughout the whole of sub-Saharan Africa, and it is very rnuch of a
similar picture through South West Africa.
Mr. GROSS: Would you Say that the same reasons apply to explain
why there are 16dentists in the Territory, of whom al1are White-would
the same explanation that you have just made spply to that fact?
Mr. RAUTËNBAC H :now as yet of no Bantu who has completed his
dental training, uptothe presentmoment.There arc 80doctorsintraining
intheXata1University;in themedical faculty 8oRantudoctors staycdover
the seven years;but 1do not know of a Bantu dentist-it may just have
slipped my notice, biit 1 do not knowof one as yet. One should bear in
mind that the highest number of matriculants arnongst the Bantu were
still under300 so far in the Republic, and of these, the three university
colleges have to be fed, and teachers' training colleges, in adniinis-
tration and al1these services, and that is why 1 am so keen tget more WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 365
Bantu mat.riculants, more Bantu university students, to provide better
for the future.
Mr. GROSS:With respect to the 80who are receiving medical education,
are any of these from South West Africa, so far as you know?
MT.KAUTENSACH : have not had these brciken up, 1 am not sure
about that.
Mr. G~oss: FinalIy and very briefly, with respect to another profession
which has been the subject of some discussion here, engineering; it is
undisputed in the record that there are no non-White engineers in South
West Africa. 1 refer toDr. Krogh's testimony, atpage 134,supra.
The PRESIDENTT : hat isin the sense of graduat1take it, hlr. Gross-
graduates in engineering?
Mr. GROÇS:Yes, Sir, that is my understanding. And Dr. Pepler, who
has testified previously o29 September at page 241, SU@YU,testified in
response to a question that "an engineer cannot ever qtralify by in-
service training". Did you understand the quotation?
hlr.RAUTENBAC1 H:nderstand the quotation, but1 beg todifferfrom
Dr. Pepler. He cannot get a degree, but he can get associate rnembership
of the Engineering Association which enables hirn to enter the same
sphere of work as a graduate engineer. By the way, that is something
which is in my realrn, and that is that of university and qualifications,'
and so on; jt is notDr. Pepler'ç realm, because he is an agricultural expert.
Mr. G~oss: I çee. Are there any agricultural engineers?
Mr. RAIJTENBACH O:h yes, we train agri(:ultural engineers;my
university has been training them since 1928, but there are no Bantu
agricultural engineers as ÿet.
Rlr. GROSS:CouId an agricultural engineer receive experience by in-
service training which would qualify hirn to serve in the same capacitics
as a qualified engineer with a degrec?
Mr. RAUTENBAC1 H :m not quite sure about that, but 1 just have an
idea that under thedepartmental work of Dr. Pepler and his people-soi1
conservaticin and ço on, and these matters-if a boy, wfiether Banfu
or White or Indian or Coloured, were to enter that, were.to.take certain
examinations of certain overseas institutes,1 think it 1s lust possible
that he could becorne an associate of one of these institutes of civil
engineers, but 1am not sure about this. It is happening wlth others,so
that 1 think it could be possible.
Mr. GROSS:That would involve training, education, at overseas in-
stitutions, you say?
hlr. RAUTENBAC NHO, not necessariIy training. You can enter as an
external student of many of these institutions overseas without being
overseas yourself, and it is done by correspondence.
hlr. GROÇS:SOfar as the Republic itself is ctincerned'in this matter,
there has been placed into the record an excerpt from the debates in the
South Afrir:a Rouse of Assembly on 25Magr of this year, which 1sNO.17,
column 6638 in Hansard, in which the Minister of Rantu Education,
Mr. Cadman, was asked how many Bantu are at present being trained
as roads, public works, transportation, telecommunications, town,
electrical,vater, civil and constructional, and other types of engineers,
and the answer, in each case €rom the Minister of Economic Affarrs, was
"None". M'ith respect to the training of engineers, what is the policy in
the universities in South Africa with respect to non-Whites, specifically
Bantus, quaIifyirig for engineering degrees?366 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. RAUTESBACH T:e policy of the university institutions involved
is to advise the Minister to make provision for trainingas soon as it
becornes apparent it has been established that there is a neAdsurvey
of this type was made since the institution of the Bantu colleges, and the
first result was that five young men would apparently corne forwarfor
training, but before further provision was made or anything furthwas
done, al1five Iiad withdrawn and had chosen other professions.And in
the case of one or two of the other applicants thereis on record, the
record 1have brouglit with me frorn South Africain1962 the Minister of
Bantu Education gala permissio tna Ban tu studcnt tostudy engineer-
ing at the University of Cape Town. A number of others had previously
appIied,and they were informed they coulddo the firçt year of study at
one of the Bantu colleges or as an external student of the Universiof
South Africa.
>IrGROSS :hat would be bp coirespondence course?
AirRAUTESBAC :HFor South Africa correspondence, but in the case of
the three Bantu colleges the subjects are mathematicç, applied mathe-
matics, physics and chemistry, and al1these four subjects on a first-year
basis canbe done, but no student has been forthcoming so far who really
has a serious idcof getting an engineering training amongst the Bantu.
Amongst the other groups there are a large number in training at the
moment.
The PRESIDENT : hat other groups do you speak about?
Blr.RAUTEKUAC 1a: speaking about the Indians, and1am speaking
about Coloured people,but Ithink particularlyabout agroup which has
not been mentioned here, and these are the Chinese people-there are
about zzo or 230 of them at the Universities of Witwatersrand, Cape
Town, Rhodes and Natal, and there are many engineers in training
amongst them.
Mr. GROSS: Dr. Rautenbach, with respect to the question of the
overseas institutes to which you referred, would that, Sir, aptoycor-
respondence or to personal attendance in the normal way.
Mr. RAUTENBACH Th:at wouId apply, Mr. President, to correspon-
dence.
Mr. GROSSU : 7ithregard to personal attendance, what, Sir, is the
policy, if any, with respect to applications which might bemade by
Bantu scholars who wish to personally study overseas?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H :. PresidentI am under the impression that the
Government is not encouraging Bantu students to study overseas at the
present tirnebut toretain them in South Africaand to make provision
for them in South Africa.
Rlr. GHOSSS: ir, with respect to the matter of overçeas study, are you
aware, on the basis of any studp you have made, of the number of Bantu
or, 1 mean to Say, generally non-Iihite students of South Afriorigin.
who are personallp studying overseasnot by correspondence?
>Ir.RAUTEXBAC H:r. President, no. The last statis1saw referred
to theyear 1959 .n one of the publications frorn Rritain. Therwas a
sumrnary of students coming from overseas (that was still when South
Africa was in the Commonwealth) and 1 remember, at that time (1still
remember some figures) the largest number in Britain in that year were
from Nigeria and that was 1,200.There was not a very large number,
but therewere a number coming from South Africa. 1 do not remember
the nurnbers. 1 have not seen statistics later on. WITNESÇES ASD EXPERTS 367
Jir. GROSS:You m-ouldnot, Sir, or would you. regard this question as
one which would be relevant to the development of the university level
education systenl in South Africa?
illrRAUTENBACW It:would be relevant in this respect and that was
slso expressed by Carr-Saunders and others, that one does want to
retain the ablest students at your own university institution bccause
these young men go on to post-graduate stiidy. 'l'heseyoung men, if they
do well, enhance the reputationof that university, and losing the ablest
students meanç also ahandicap to the development of that university.
hlr. GROSS:Sir, Rpropos of your testimony withrespect to the avail-
abiiity of overseas study by correspondence, and your testimonj- with
respect to the facilities available in South Af1iwould like to refer to
a table appearing in the report of the Sub-Cornmittee on Africa of the
Committee on Foreign Affairs to the House of Representatives of the
United States with respect to the number of African students, specifically
South African students, studying in the United States, and the figure is
3 O students from South Africa, of whom 136 bqan their studies in the
Qnited Statesin 1964 to 1965.Sir, what bearing, if any, would this fiyre
have with respect to the problem ofuniversity level education in South
Africa in terms of the desire of students tostudyabroa1sthat question
clear, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBACH N:O,it is not clear.
Mr. G~oss:This, you will agree, would you not, indicates a desire on
the part ofacertain nurnber of non-White studeiits from South Africa to
study abrozid? That is clear from the figurcs, is it no1askrwhether,
Sir, as an expert, you would have any views with respect to the signi-
ficance of that figure, that fact, with regard to the general desire of non-
White students to study outside South Africa?
Mr. RAUTENBAC 1H:an teçtify that 1kiiow that there is such a desire.
1 have been a mernber of the Advisory Committee to the British Council
which awards çcholarships and bursaries; 1 waç a member of the Com-
monwealth Universities' Advisory Committee on scholarships abroad; I
know about the application of Africans or Bantu and others to go
abroad, and it is a consideration on our part always whethcr thatman
is prepared to declare that he wants to returtoSouth Africa.
Mr. GROSS:Now, Sir, if he declares his wish to return South Africa,
would this be a reason for denying his visa to study abroad?
Mr. RAU-~ENBA C H,that in itself would not aereason, and in tliat
casc, if the man iç otherwise suitable and promiiing, we recomrnend and
then it is outsidmy sphere or our sphere whether he geta visa or not.
Mr. GROSS :o you know, Sir, how many, if any, of the South African
non-White students who are, let us Say, studying in the United States,
by way of esample, are therc without visas or other official permission
of the South African Government ?
hlr. R.~UTESEACH1 : could not Say, but from time to time one does
read in the papers about oneor other of these youngmen, or not so young
men, in certain cases, who in some way or other fled the country and
provision waç made for thcm in the United States, by some foundation
or somethiiig of the kind. 1 have read about these cases bu1 have no
persona1 knowledge.
Mr. Gaoss: This has not corne within the purview of your concern
with regard to the university level education in South Africa?
hlr.KAUTENBAC NH:,1 do not sce thatit has any bearing unless it366 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
is a \vonderfully gifted nian n7hocould bccoma professor of, let us say
physics, for instance. 1 would be interested in getting such a man back
because we have so few, as yet, on the side of the esact sciences who
have progressed far, but. on the other hand, again, South Africa does
provide for training iip to a doctorate and cven post-doctorate levels in
the case of C.S.I.R.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, in your studies or analysis of thc university level
education policies to which you are addressing your tcstiniony, would
you express an opinion to the Court why, if you know, on the basis
of your experience or judgment, a South African non-White student
should apply to a foreign university for training? Specifically, perhaps,
to focus the question, what bearing does that fact have, ifany, with
respect to the adequacp or otherwise of educational facilities in the
Republic in the fields of his aspiration?
BlrRAUTENI~ACH 1:think it has comparatively little bearing because
as many, or very niany more SVhitesapply forscholarships and bursaries
to oïerseas universities-ilmerieanand çoon.
&IrG~oss:Are the same policies or, as you teit,encouragement or
lack thereof, applicd to the iVlite South African student who wishes to
pursue studies abroad?
Mr. RAUTENIIAC T a:ing into account the situation of the White
community, certain policies are applied. For instance, scholarships are
not awarded in branches where astudent can do his training in South
Africa.
hlr.GROS SIfa White student applies for a visa tostudy abroaishe,
as a condition of obtaining that visa, under any obligation to state
whether it is his intention to return to South Africa upon completion of
his studies?
air.RAUTENBAC TOthe best ofmy knowledge, but 1 ~~~uldnot take
my oath on that. That is asked in theorm \\.hich he fillstonobtain a
visa for going abroad, butn those bodies of whic1am a rnember this is
not significant. He has got to express his intention of returning to South
Africa.
hlr. GROSS:In other words, ifa White person applies for a visa to
pursuc studies abroad he has tu state his intention to return to South
Africa upon completion of his studies? Is that what you have said, Sir?
Mr. R~UTENHAC YH:s, to the best my knowledge that is so in the
case of providing passports. A1said, 1 would not likc to take my oath
on itAgain, it is a field in whi1ham not an espcrt.
&Ir.GKOSS This is not a typofpolicy question which arises before the
Advisorÿ Council?
Mr. RAUTESBACHN :o, the Advisory Council dcals with sub-university
level and there is no need to proceed oversaithe sub-university level.
Mr. GROSS:Now, just to round out the factual picture, have you had
occasion to inquire concerning thenumber of Soutli \\'est African non-
1irhites who are pursuing studies abroad, outside South Africa?
JIr.RAUTENKAC HHa:ve 1any knowledge did you ask?
RIr.GROSS :ave you any basis for knowledga on that point, Sir?
air.RAUTENBAC1 H :ead about a man by the name of Benkes who at
that time claimed to be a student overseas and one or two others, b1t
just read that in the newspaper and 1donot regard that as the very best
source ofinformation for an academic man.
Blr.GROSS : ow, Sir, this table to which1 have referred, being an37O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
we get to that, 1 would like to ask you again whether you considcr that
the reasons why these young men and wornen go abroad for educatioii is
related to your analysis of the educationalsystem of South Africa itself?
Do you regard this as a matter with which you, as an espert, need not
concern yourself? This ismy question, Sir.
Mr. RAUTEXBACH hr. President, 1 am asked to judge on reasons
which 1 coutd imagine or somebody ebe could imagine, not on real
reasons, for they have not been advanced. And until1have these reasons
before me I cannot ariswer that question of whether their presence
abroad is relevant to future educntion policy in South AfricI.am very
sorry. 1regret sincerelybut 1 cannot reply to hypothetical situationsI
am inclined ta agrec with Sir Isaac Newton-hypotheses non fingo.
Mr. G~oss: My question, and 1 will pursue it only to make sure you
understand it, iswhether you regard the number of non-White students
who pursue studiesabroad and the reasons ~vhythey do so as outside the
scope of your analysis of the South Africa university level educational
system-is it orisit nota factor related to the South African univcrsitÿ
system?
>Ir.RAUTEKBAC THe:nature of the reason would determine whether
their presence abroad was relevant to the South African situation.
hIr. G~oss: Well, Sir, your admittedlack of knowledge with respect
to the reasons svould reflect would iSir, somegap in your information
of a relevant nature?
Mr. RAUTENBAC NHot necessarily, because the real reasons and thc
reasons given are not alwaysthe sarne.
Bir.GROSS :o that your suspicionofthe data which you would obtain
has deterred you from making an enquiry-is that what you want the
Court to understand?
Rlr.RXUTENBAC N o:it has never impressed ine as beingafactor on
the horizon of such vast importance that1should devote any particular
amount of time to that.
Mr. GROSS: lffith respect to the six South West African students and
still refemng to thesame document, this time houTever, to table 3 at
page zo-you do not have the document in front of you, Sir-I am
reading it-of the six South West African students, four are Iisted as
g~aduate students inagriculture.Now mould ÿou have any basis for an
opinion, Siras to whether the fact that these four students froiii South
lest Africa are graduate students in agriculture in the United States-
would that have any bearing on whether there were adequate facilities in
South Africa for a South West African non-White to pursue grnduate
studies in agriculture?
Mr. RAUTENBAC NO ,not unless 1 know whether they perhaps took
their degree in Basutoland, becauscn BasutoIand provision wns made to
the best of my knowledge for study in agriculture.
Rlr.GROSS: But it is undisputed in the record that no facilities for
higher education exist in South West Africa, and so far as South Africa
is concerned, on the basis of your knowledge or expert opinion, would
any of these four South \.l'est African non-imites are pursiiing
graduate agriculture studies in the United States have qualified in South
Africa itself-couldthey have qualified in South Africa itself?
)Ir.RAUTESBACN HO: they could not have qualified in South Africa
itseIf because the training is given ai the universities.o..yes, they
could have, there isa slight possibility thaone could have traiiiedin WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 37I
Katal because in the University of Natal there has been an agricultural
faculty for a number of years and they were allowed to do various courses,
and it may just be, 1am not sure about that Mr. President.
$Ir. CROSS: Ido not want to tax your know11:dgebeyond the point of
your information, but I want to get before the Court your analysis of
the posçible implications of these facts from an espert point of view.
>Ir.RAUTEXBAC 1Hh:ve other information or1this pointifyou want it.
Mr. G~c~ss If it is relevant to this point, Sir, I think perhaps the
Court would welcome it.
Mr. KAUTENBACH It: is relevant to this pointand also to the other
point raiscd in connection with engineering. Tht:re ha been acommittee
going into this whole matter of the training of agricultural experts in
animal husbandry, etc., and one of the members of that committee was
the Dean of the Faculty of Agriculture atmy own university and 1 know
about this because hc had to get leave from me to do this, and on the
other hancl,'aCshairman of the Council of the Bantu Collegeof the North,
I had a part in acquiring an experimental farm with aview to establishing
an agricultural faculty at that institution.So t1iatmy reply is now that
if the presence of these young men in America is due to a lack of training
facilities in South Africa, as soon as we know about a need then we go
into that and we make recommendations to the Minister-l am very
interested in these figures.
Mr. GRCISSM : ay 1then expressgratification that this information may
perhaps be of service to you in your further studies.
The PRESIDENT T:e important thing is that it be of service to the
Court 1 think, fiIrGross.
Mr. Gi<c)ss:That isthe first loyalty always,Sir. IwouId like to turn
to your teatimony with respect to conditions previous to 1959 in South
Africa and in particular your testimony on page 331,szcpra,ofyesterday's
verbatim record, which is 4 October. 1refer specifically to your statement
in responre to the question put by Mr. Grosskopf at the top of page
331, in which Mr. Grosskopf asked you-"To what extent would you Say
that the Rantu took ndvantage of, or were admittcd to,those facilities?"
Your answer was as foIlows:
"Tliey were admitted under certain Iimitations, In the case of the
University of Natal they were not admitted to the Faculty of
Science and hlathematics because there were too few places to
accommodate students outside the White group. In the case of the
other universities, they were admittedsubjecttocertain limitations."
Kow Sir, with specific referenceto the fact,asyou testifiedin the portion
I have just read, that there were too few places to accommodate students
outside the imite group, does that mean, Sir, that an absolute prior~ty
of admission was given to the Mites?
Mr. T~ALTTENBA YCeH,:the University of Natal was established with
the idea ofitbeing a University for the White5 and with al1thesympathy
of its Council and its Principal for other groups, it had to satisfy the first
of its patrons. It was not legally established that itu7asfor one group,
but by tradition. The University of Natal decided in 1935 to promde
facilities as far as possible for non-White groulisbut 1 have read that
at a certain stage, owing to the European nunibers coming forward in '
the post-war period, there were no more places for the non-Li'hites and
they wcre encouragcd to enter only the other courses ofstudy.372 SOUTH UTST AFRICA
Afr. GROSS :his was a matter of university policy to reserve the
positions for\Vhites only?
hlr.KAUTENRAC Htwas a policy of thisparticularuniversity because
at that time it was an open universitp and the University Council decided
what the policy would be in this respect and this was the University
Council's decision as far aI know.
hlr.GROSS 'She University Council's decision was to give an absolute
priority to Whitesto fil1up al1available places before non-N7hites would
be considered for admission-is that correct, Sir?
Rlr.KAUTENIIAC That is correct as far as the Faculty of Science and
Mathematics is concerned-I have only read about that being the case.
Mr. G~oss: \Vould you explain or do you consider that you have ex-
plained why this absolute prionty was established by the University as
a rnatter of policy?
&Ir.RAUTEXBACH 1 could just guess at that-theUniversity of Xatal,
situated in one of the provinces of the Republic, the majority of the
people are English-speaking and they have been settled there for a long
tirne. It was establishedas a College in 1909 and 1 think very few ap-
plications came to this University beforc 1935 to make provision for
others, it had become part of tradition. In 1935, the Council of this
University dccided to make some provision for the training of other
groups outside Whites, subject to interna1 separaticin.
The PRESIDBNTM : ay 1ask the witness a question. IllrRautenbach,
you speak of the Council deciding these things, to what extent is the
Council, ifat all, subject to the directiof any governmental control?
hlr.RAUTENBACH In:the universities establishcd bp Acts of Parlia-
ment, the so-cnlled incorporated universities, the Council has what we
cal1 in Afrikaans or Dutcli law "regspersoon"-it is a corporate body
and it isa corporate body which has al1rights pertaining to a corporate
body with certain exceptions; the one exception is that it may not
establish new departments or faculties unleçs the Miniçter of Education
gives his approval; secondly, it rnay not institutnew posts unless the
hfinister of Education giveç his approval--othem,iseit ian autonomous
body.
Slr. GROSS \:ith respect to this question that the honourable Preçident
has addressed to you, in the first place, has the corporate body to which
you refer been composed exclusively of White persons?
Rlr. RAUTISNBAC H:corporate body of the University of Natal has
always been to the best of my knowledge cornposecicxclusively of White
persons.
Rlr.G~oss: 1s it nottrue,let me put it affirmatively-is it truethat
the members of the Council are appointed by the State President?
3Ir.RAUTEXBA CNHO.
hlr. GROSS:Ry whom are they appointed?
Jlr. RAUTE?~BAC :OHnly a certain number of members are appointed by
the State President. Let us Say, there ar20 members or 22 or 24 in the
University of Natal and the nile is that the State President appoints
about one-third-about eight.As a rule three or four are eIect...must
1continue-shall Icontinue with this? As a rulethree or four are elected
by the alumni. Then another number are elected by the donors, those
who have givcn or prescnted gifts or donations to the University in
excess of a certain amount.
Mr. GROSS :ou mean the generous alumni, Sir? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 373
Mr. RA~JTENBACH W:e are a Young country-we have not got so many
alumni as yet who are both generous and weI1-to-do, but niany of the
large corporations do give amounts. We are not as far advanced as the
Americanc in that respect-they really set an example to the world.
Then as a rule the municipality inwhich that university is situated also
appoints a.certain nurnber of members so that the number of members
appointed by government mny be one-third to two-fifths-it differs from
university to university.
hlr. GROSS:Thank you, Sir. With respect tci the fixing of priorities,
absolute or otherwise on a racial or ethnic basis-would the Council in
exercising its autonomy consult with the Minister of Bantu Education or
any other government official, normally?
Mr. KAUTENBACH N:ow, 1 could not say what other councils would do
in that case because prior to 1959, it was not necessary to consult with
the hlinister.
Mr. G~oss: Therefore, your testimony with respect to the matter in
question is not based upon information concerning how the council, in
fact, arrived at its decision andinthe first place stopped there-is that
a correct statement?
Mr. RA~JTENBACH N:o, that is not quite correctThe Principal of the
University of Natal, who is retiring at the end of this year and who has
been serving there for over 20 years, published a long article in Octobrr
r964 on the liistorp of the training of various groups outside the White
group-The University ofNatal, overthe period 1938-1963. In this long
article he mentions various steps which were ta.ken to make that provi-
sion and also the various provisos which were made by the Council, so
that if that is not sound and reliable information theI would not know
what is. Perhaps 1misunderstood you?
Mr. G~oss: You understmd me perfectly and you cited exactly the
right authority, i1rnay Say so. The question 1would now like to ask you
is,did this undoubted authority to which jrou rcfer explain in his report
~vhythere was an absolute priority for Whites in the Faculty of Science
and Mathematics and not in other facuIties?
Mr. RA~JTENBACH K:o, he did not even mention it in that report.
Mr. G~ctss: Do you have anp expert or othei. basis for an opinion on
that subject-for the reason for this distinction?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es, in one of his addresses which he gave about
six years ago he mentioned this fact tliat a limitation had to be set on
entry into a science faculty because there were too few places.
hlr. CROSS: But you have no opinion, Sir, as 1 understand, as to why
there was an absolute White priority in this faculty whereas in other
faculties there was not?
Mr. RAVTENBACH :es, 1 have an opinion on that, and as 1 have al-
ready said, Ithink that Natal was by tradition regarded as a university
which in the first placewas established for the training of Wliites, and
this Council has to bear in mind what public opinion is and if the Nata-
lians by birth or people residing in Durban or Pietersmaritzburg had been
excluded they would have raised Cain I think.
Mr. GROSSE : xcluded from the Faculty of Science?
Mr. RAIJTENBACH E:xcluded from whichever faculty they could not
enter because other groups stood in their way.
%Ir. GROSS:1s your testirnony on the point that Bantu were not
admitted to the Faculty of Science and Mathematics because there were374 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
too few placesoutside the White group? Dues that apply to other
faculties at the university of Natal as well?
hlr.RAUTENBAC Th:t 1could not Say. 1only saw this mentioned in
the case of theFacuity of Science.
Mr. G~oss: You do not know what the policy was with respect to
other faculties at the university?
Mr. RAUTENBAC1 H::an make them by inference, that the policy was
that as long as there were places let them come along.
Mr. G~oss: So that there was an absolute priority for LIrhites in al1
faculties in your opinion, Sir?
MT.RAUTENBAC H:ith this one exception.
Mr. G~oss: With what exception?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H :e Science Faculty. The Faculty ofScience and
Mathematics.
Mr. GROSS1 :understood you to say thatyour opinion was that the
absolute White priority applied tal1facuIties of the university.
hlr.RAUTENBACH Yes, it applied in theory but no problem arises
until thereis a iacofstudent places.
Mr. G~oss: 1 see.
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hn: facuities like Arts and Literatureyou can
accommodate large classes and you can dupIicate classes and you can
tnplicate classes, but in the Science Faculty you havetoohave a lab.
Mr. G~oss: In other words, Sir, this is the reason; the Science Faculty
studies needed laboratory facilities and that this, would you agree, is
where the shoe pinched? That in the case of the other faculties there was
not the necessity to apply the policy ofsolute White priorityWould
you agree to that statement?
Mr. RAUTEXBAC NHO,there was not as good a reason, or as sound a
reason in other faculties as in this case.
Mr. GROSS A:l1right, Sir. Turning now to the same verbatim at page
345, supra, this is by way of darification or elucidation, if you will, Sir.
At page 345,in answering questions directedto you by Kespondent's
Council, you assigned as one of the consequences which would follow
from what was described as theahlition ofdifierentiauniversitiesone
of the reasons you assigned on pag345 was: "Secondly, you could not
retain the best stafff the best type of student does kis post-graduate
work elsewhere." Now, Sir, woulyou consider, as an educationalist, that
the limitation of freedom of movement or opportunity for the best type
of student, limiting his freedom to pursue his studies elsewhere, might
have a depressing or discouraging effect on the faculty of that institution?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Th:at the Iirnitation imposed, did you Say, would
have a discouraging effect?
hlr.GROSS Y:our testimonyis that one of the reasons for the so-called
differential universitiewhich are othenvise described as segregated
universities, was that you could not retain the best staff if the best type
of student does his post-graduate work elsewhere. Nowmy question is
whether you regard this reason for limiting the freedomanfindividual
to pursue studies at a university of his choice as an adequate reason from
the educational point of view? Do you understandmy question? Would
you care to answer that, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es,1 will answer that. The indication so far
has been that no member of staff has become unduly depressed
by the limitation of the mavernent of graduate students. 1 have not WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 375
heard about anybody thinking of resigning liis post for that reason.
Mr. G~oss: Your testimony as 1 understood it, Sir, and as 1 said
before-this is for clarification and elucidation-wasthat this was one
of two reasons you gave in response to Counsel's request for your opinion
as to what the result would be if segregation oc differential universities
were abolished, and you have cited this as one of the two reasons. Now,
1 wanted to pursue that with you and ask whether you think it is, if 1
may put it shortly, a valid and sensible reason from an educationalist's
point of view?
Mr. RA~JTENBACIH t :is a valid and sensible reason from an education-
alist's point of view, who has an open eye for the realities of the situation.
The most important component of a university, after the student of
course, is the teacher and the retention of a good staff is sornething which
worries every university executiveand, where 1have an interest in these
Bantu universities, 1 would like to retain that staff. They have left the
university for other reasons but not fothe reason that the limitation of
the movement of students has depressed them to such an extent that
they thought they had better get out of this type of university.
Nr. GRGSSS : oyou would not regard this as a major reason, in reply to
Mr. Grosslcopf'squestion?
Mr. RAIITENBACN H: it isan additional reason.
Mr. G~oss: Merely an additional or supplementary .. .?
Mr. RAIITENBAC AHsupplementary reason.
Mr. G~oss: And it ispurely suppositious on the basis of anything that
has happened so far in your experience?
MT. RAIJTENBACH Ye:s,we have done a great deal of supposing this
morning.
Nr. G~oss: Thank you, Sir. With regard to the general problem of
staffing of the non-White universities, has there been a difficulty created
in respect of recruitment of teachers by reason of the opening of the
segregated schools?
Mr. RA~JTENBACH: The influence or the resuit of the opening of more
schools wit:hmore posts has aggravated the situation which existed before
that time, which existsthroughout the whole world at the present time
-and that is the shortage of academic manpower. Itis noticeable now
that we have to appoint at the White universities younger men than
previously and we are experiencing the same problems.1am experiencing
a problem at my university to get properly qualified young men into the
FacuIty of Law and 1 have had a cornplaintjust before1 lefmy country,
from Professor John Maré of the University Collegeof Ngoye, and he was
on the loolr-out for a younB.A.or LL.U. man. We are experiencing the
same diffic.ulty, but he was more fortunate thari we are in being able to
recruitmen from the White universities who could still retire at the age
of 60and then, with the assistance of the Minister of Education, offering
thern a ten-years' contract tgo and teach ai the Bantu universities. He
has just recruiteda man from the University of Witwatersrand for the
teaching of English, who formerly was senior lecturer at my university-
a very good man.
hlr. G~clss: Now, Sir, would you be prepared to say, Sir, that leaving
aside, but not forgetting, the beneficial reasons you have asserted in your
own view forthe establishment of these segregated schools, that this
teacher problem was one of the prices that had to be paid in order to
accomplisli the objectives you had in mind? SOUTH WEST AFRICA
376
;\Ir.RAUTEXBAC H :s, iis one of the prices which had to bepaid
there and it isone of the prices which is being paid over again in the
establishment of two new European universities.
hlr,GROSS :Yith regard to the establishment of the separate univer-
sities in the1959 Extension of University Education Act, as it was
called,I shall now address certain questionon that subject to you. In
order to lay a foundation for those questions, 1 would like to ask you,
Sir, whether you are farniliar with the 1959Act in cliicstion?
hlr~IAUTENBAC UHr:President, 1 am familiar with that Act1 think
I have a copy of the Act with me.
Mr. GROSS1: may not necessarily refer to specific provisbut 1 just
want to establish whether or not you regarded yoiirself as an expert with
regard to the provisions of thect.
Mr. RAUTENHAC Rlr. President,1have no legal training. The only
man wl1ocan really bean expert on these mattersinfact ia man with a
legal training. 1 hava general knowledge of this Act.
Mr. G~oss: You will know, Sir, generally, wliat the reasons were
which were assigned by the Government for the adoption of the legis-
lation?
Mr. RAVTENBAC Ye:, Sir.
Mr. GROSS: 1am not asking you now to explain them. 1 justwant to
lay the basis for your kno~ïvledgeon this subject.
&Ir.RAUTENBAC YHes, Mr. President, and 1 think these are to be
foiind ithe report of the Select Cornmittee Parliament.
Bir. GROSS:Yes, Sir. You are familiar with the reasons, are you not?
;\IrKAUTESBAC1H am familiar with the reasons.
BIr.GROSS A:re you familiar ïvith methodsby which the legislation
was implemented-has been implemented?
' Air.I~AUTENBAC Yes, in general.
Mr. G~oss: Are yoit familiar, or do you profess familiarity with the
consequences ofthe measures taken to implement the legislation?
hlr. RAUTENBAC YHes,I am faniiliar with the number of students,
etc.if that is what is referred to.
Mr. GROSS G:eneraliy speaking. Thank you.1want to turn now to the
question of the major reasons, if you please, which were assigned by the
hlinister of Rantu Education to the House of Assémblyin support of the
Act in question. Can you summarize those? Selcct the ones that you re-
gard asof outstanding significance.
Rlr. RAUTEKBAC IHt:ink a mistake is made there. TheAct was not
introduced in the House of Assemblyby the hlinister of Bantu Education
but by the Rlinister of Education. Thaisthe Act of 1957.
Mr.GROSS Yes, Sir, no1am referring to the çtaterneof thhlinister
made in the House of Assernbly in 1959, which is referred toin the
Counter-Mernorial, IiI, pag483, whicli is preceded by-introduced by
the comment at paragraph 3 j,from lvhich 1 read:
"Later the Minister of Bantu Education, in the same debate,
explained the four fundamental consjdewtions on ivhich the Bill
was based.
The following is a sumrnary of the Minister's speech."
This, Sir, is the speech to which 1 am addressing myself.
The PRESIDEN That was not on the introduction of the Bill, that was
Iater.1s that correct, Mr. Gross? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 377
hlr. GROSS:This, Sir, was on the introduction of the Bill, on an ex-
planation of it. It is cited in a footnote of the Counter-Nemorial"U. of
S.A., Parl. Deb., Uouse of Assembly, Vol. IOO (i:ggg)."That would be at
the time of the debate on the Bill that had I~eenintroduced. Is that
correct?
Mr. RA~JTENBAC H :s, but 1do not think .. .1 know for certain in
1957, when the Bill was introduced for the first time, the Alinister of
Education, Arts and Science introduced it.
1had at:tually spent the previous evening with hirn as his guest and1
knew he was going to introduce it the follo\ving day. Now 1 am not sure
whether the second introduction of the Bill \vas done by the Ninister of
Bantu Education, but in any case he participated in that debate. There
is no doubt about that.
&Ir.GRCISST : hat is the speech to whicli 1am referring. &Ir.President,
is thereany other aspect of this which you wanted . . .?
The PRISSIDENT :anted to'be clear upon certain points.
hlr. CROSS: \Wh respect to the speech, the excerpts from which are
set forth in the Counter-Mernorial, III,pages 484 and follo~ving-I wiii
not burdeii you, Sir, orthe Court with the reading of excerpts from those
speeches, i do, however, wish to ask you a basic question-a question
which perhaps you can answer shortly. \Vould you say, Sir, that the
introduction of the Act was a portion of the general implementation of
the apartheid or separate development policy iithe Republic?
Mr. RAUTESHACH& : Ir. President, that has been my impression al1
along, that that was one of the bulwarks of this programme.
hlr. GKOSS:And, Sir, would you, in thc context of that reply-and
this is ont: sentence to which 1 cal1 yom attention and the only one
which 1 sliall read, on page 455, that refcrring to open universities or
mixed iiniversities.The Minister is quoted as saying as lollows:
"If it is still to be permitted [that is to say, the open university]
it will create the fatal impression that apartheid is something which
is applied and should be applied only until the non-White has
received his matriculation certificate . . ."
The sentence goes on from there. You may consult it if you wish, or
counsel may check to sce whcther this is fairlyincontext but, pausing
there, woiild you, Sir, have an opinion with respect to the extent to
which the introduction of the segregated university system was deçigned
to assure that the policy of apartheid genera.11~would not find any
exception in the education systcm of the country? Would you agree to
that as a fair surnmary of that statement?
hlr. RAUTBNI~A :CHo, Iwould not agree to that as a fair surnmary of
that state~nent.
Mr. GROSS:Would you please explain to the Court what your view
would be of that matter?
hlr. ~~AUTENRACH: The apartheid separation (the word sounds so very
sinister in anotherlanguagc, although it does not in my own as it is an
Afrikaans word) is not there for its own sake-it is a programme-a
programme starting from this prerniçe, that every community in South
Africa has the right to beinSouth Africa,has the right to live there, h?s
the right to develop there; that any community in South Africa 1s
capable of producing its own leaders; tliat any community shouId be
encourageci to producc its own leaders; that it should be open to a
community, through a process of self-determination, assisted when it is375 SOUTH WEST XFRICA
less mature than the other, to rnake its own choice as regards the future;
that aiiy communitp ha. the right to lay ciaim to its most gifted young
men and older men, whether trained prirnary school level, or thend-
arÿ school level, or the tertiary school level. The main objective of this
programme was stated, 1 think, very clearly by the Prime alinister,
Dr. Veruroerd,in London, in 1961,during the Lancaster House events,
when he saw a vision of the future of South Africa as being a country
with nations or communities politically independent and econornically
interdependent. Now al1these aspects or facets-thfirst levof educa-
tion aiid the second levofeducation and the third level of education-
are part and parceofthis programme, and education is a very important
part of this programme, to move in the direction oftl nationhoodfor
these various comrnunities and peaceful CO-existcncewhere the justified
aspirations of al1 are on their way towards fulfilment, if not ful1illed.
cannot see the trendof the question, for-thatrneasure of1959 was to
savc an aspect of apartheid, because that is a means towards an end. One
is involved with the end more than the rneans. Apartheid isa rneans
towards an end-it is not an end in itseif.
&Ir.G~oss: Yes.
question.UTENBACI H: do not know whether I have answered the
Mr. GROSS :appreciate, Sir, the Iength of your re1lwoüld like to
know whether what you have described or attributed to Prime Rlinister
Venvoerd would be perhaps accurately surnmarised by another reference
more directly relevantto the educational systemof Southitrest Africa.
In the House of Assembly Debates on the so-called White Paper re arding
the Odendaal Commission report, on Wednesday, 6 May 19f!-the
document has beencjtedin therecord and is cited in the pleadings, Sir-
the Prime hlinister, Colurn5641 ,aid as follows:
"1therefore Iayitdown as a principle that we envisage the even-
tua1 right of self-determination for each the smaller and larger
racial groups in South West Africa. Secondly, we offer protection
for every group in their development towards the highest functions
within each group, including self-administratiin al1spheres. The
Report proves this very clearly, and the education envisaged is
directed towards that object."
1 pause there, Sir,".. .the education envisaged is directed toward
that object".Kow the object as stated, would you agree, Sir, is based
upon the object of self-determination for each of the srnaller and larger
racial groups and separate political entities, economically interdepen-
dent; is that the objective?
Mr. RAUTENBAC THh:t is, tmy mind, the objective.
Mr. GROSS W:ould you agree, Sir, with the Prime Rlinister's character-
ization of the educationsystem as being envisaasdirected toward that
objective?
RlrRAUTEXRAC Yes, 1read that together with his well-kno~vnpolicy
announccment on the Bantu Education Bill in the Senate Meeting of
7 June 19-54,
Mr. GROSS :hen, Sir ,inaliy, the Prime hlinister goes on to say,
thirdly, and 1 skip a few irrelevant words in which he castigates the
honourable Member for Hopetown :
"The limitations imposed on the freedoms of people (as we find WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 379
practically over the whole world where anybody lives in a territory
of somebody else) falls awassoon as eveiybody can enjoy his own
freedom in his own territory."
On the basis of your study and analysis of this situation, would you agree
with the indication from this statement-iit isa fair indication-that
the non-White in the so-calIed White sector of the economy in the
territory is living in somebody else's territory, would you apply that
concept to that particular situation?
Mr. RAUTENBA C Hes,I would regard him as being a man who is
sojourning there and they sojourn there perhaps for three generatorns
four generat ions.
Mr. GRE~S Ssee, Sir. Leaving that then and continuing, "the limita-
tions irnposed on the freedomsU-may 1ask you, Sir, whether you regard
this as a fair statement of the situation that there is a limitation on
freedoms imposed on the sojourner? Would you agree to that, Sir?
Mr. RA~JTENBAC Y e:. thereisdefinitely a limitation. It would be
extremely dishonest to deny that.
IllrGROSS : ow, Sir, wouldyou then, proceeding frorn that point,
express your view, whether you agree or disagree, with the conclusion of
the Prime blinister in this same excerpt that these limitations will, to
use his term, fa11awayassoon as everybody can enjoy his own freedom
and his own territory, do you agree with tliat evaluation o..t.?
hlr.RAUTENBAC THhat is the Prime ;\.linistt:rls vision of the future,
and he is visionary at timeand that vision ap~iealsto me.
hIr.GROSS N:ow you would characterize it as a vision, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC As:a vision. Yes.
Mr. GROSS N:ot then, as a programme of action?
Mr. RAIITENBAC NHO:, the ultimate ia vision. The programme of
action is this programme of separation, to realizi: what is incorporated in
that vision.
Mr. G~oss: Would you have any estimate ai ail, or basis for an
estimate,as to when,ifever, the vision will be off the drawing bosod,
to speak?
Rlr.RAUTENBAC Ha: very pleased with that question, Mr. President,
because inthesphere in whichIam active1 setmy target at not later than
1980.By then, the Bantu university coUegeswiil be full fledged univer-
sitiesBy then, the stage will be reached-Imentioii the blue-print-
where the present Council will change places with the present Advisory
Council and when the Bantu people, in this case, will take over the
functionsof the Council andmy successors (1shall not be theby that
time) will then be the people who will realize tliat they have sojourned
for so many years in Bantuland.
Rlr.GROSS 'l17ithrespect to the proposition ...
hir.RAUTENBAC Th: reason for 19801 mentioned that.
hlr.GROSS Y:es, Sir, that has familiar overtones to.. .
hlr. RAUTENBAC Hhat is the target for al1 middle Africa-from
South of tlie Sahara right down to the border of Rhodesia, a1think
we are ina.dvance of this.
hlr.GROSS : ith respect to the "falling away" of the limitations on
freedom, and 1quote "as soon as everybody car1enjoy his own freedom
in his own territory", and are talking hereSir,about the educational
context, the field of your ownouiledge and experience, would you Say
that the educational systeis geared to the proposition that there will,380 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
at çome unspecified time, be a total separation according to racial
groupings eacli"in his own territorp", to use the Prime Rlinister's
language ?
>Ir.RAUTEXBAC YHe, there is a likelihood of that. 1 believe we are
doing Our best tomake that happen and to bnng that about.
Rlr.G~oss :You envisage atotalphysicalseparationofthe ethnicgroups?
Blr. RAUTENU.ICH As: far as 1 can see it, separation of the ethnic
groupç,as 1said, politically independent, econornically inter-dependent,
He spoke of a commonwealth of nations in South Afnca.
hlr.GHOSÇ :ir, he spoke about . . .
Mr. KAUTENBAC H :, that was in London, he spoke about the
Commonwealth ofNations.
Mr. GROSS : hat 1 am referring to is (sornetirnes it appears elinive
some of the statcments made, if 1 may interject that) to have as precisely
as possible, inerms of the education context, particularly, whethethe
educational system is geared toward the objective of physical seation
of races or ethnic pou s in separate ter~itories?
&Ir.KAUTENHACH 9es, Icould çubscribe to that fo50 per cent. You
see, theseparate territories are there already. Eclucation will not crcate
separate territoriesbut education gives a recognition to the fact that
there are separate territories, theare separate homelands, and, to use
hlr. Gross's word, education is geared to that realjty. It is a form of
community service, education of a particular comrnunity.
hlr.GROÇÇ: 1 regret to say that this is where previousIy in the record
1have also fallen off going around a curve, imay put itthat way, Sir.
1am not talking about the same thing you are talking about. 1 am asking
you whether it is an objective for which the educationalsystem is devised
and applied. Iç itan objective that there will be physical çeparation on
a racial basis, whereby ii7hites will live in one geographical area, and
non-Whites of various backgrounds and types ancltribeswiillive in other
areas; iç thiç an objective, Sir?
Mr. RAUTEXRAC Yes, as far a1 can judge that is part and parcel of
the education programme. The education programme adjusts itself to that
reality, that there are Uantu homelands, there are Bantu residential
areas.
Mr. GROSS1 : do not wantto argue with you,J am trying to clarifmy
question. There are Uantu homelands, as ÿou describe thcm-let us
forget the nomenclature and for the sake of this discussion perhaps Iet
me agree with you. There are of course areas, and 1amreferringspecifically
to the southern sectorof the Territory for this purpos...
Mr. RAUTENHACH 1:thought you were referring to the Republic, not
South West Africa.
hlr.G~oss: I am coming to that, but I should like to be sure that we
understand each other. 1 am referring ai the moment to the çouthern
sectorin which there are Whites and non-LVhites, in the so-called White
econorny, in the Odeiidaal Commission phrase. It is undisputed in the
recoi-clthat there is a majority ofn-Whites in that sector outside the
Reserves, in the so-called White economy. Pausing there fora moment,
is it envisaged as an objectiveof the education policy with respect to
these individuals, non-White, and White for that matter, that they shall
be at some stage, visionary or otherwise, physicaily separated and placed
so that they wiil Iive in separate geographical territories or areas-can
you answer that question? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 38r
Mr. RAGTEKBAC MHay 1, to clarify that, jask a question in return,
Mr. President ?
The PRE;SIDEN:TCertainly.
&Ir.GRCISSW : ith the Court's permission,I will try and answer it to
the best ofmy ability.
Mr. RAUTENBAC 1s it the idea of &Ir.Gross that 1 should answer in
reply to this whether the people who are now resident in that area should
be removed at some future date-is that what he is after?
Mr.G~oss : Ifyou request meto cIarify my question1willbe delightedto.
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:hat was what 1 asked-does he want me to reply
to that, \uliether 1 visualize a possibility of their being rernoved, or that
education aims at that-that they should be removed irom their residen-
tial areas there on to reservations or Bantu homelands, or something of
this type?
MI.G~oss: May 1 Say, without trying to be facetious, if you have a
group of people living together who have one life-time, or more, or part
of a life-time, or whatever the case may be, my question is whether,
regardless of how it is accomplished, whether they go voluntarily or by
persuasion or by compulsion-for the moment iorgetting that-is it an
objective that, by some means or other, the races or groups now living
and workirig in the same sector in the same economy wilI be physically
separated--is this an objective of the educationtil system, toward which
the educational system isdirected?
Mr. RALTTENBACI Ht: is an objective of the policyof apartheid or
separation, and education is also part of that programme. 1 can reply
as regards the Republic,just from general knowledge, not because I am
an expert on this, that the date is mentioned as1978 when the absolute
number of Bantu in the Bantu residential areas in the Republic will be-
come stabilized and from then onwards will go down, so that by the
year 2000, if 1 rernember correctly-1 suppose demographers, or what-
ever you cal1 them, made this calculation-\ve would have the same
situation again as we had in1944-194 but please, 1have no politician's
conscience in my keeping-it is very difficutt for me to answer these
questions which liein the sphere of politics.
Mr. GROSS:1realize how difficult the questions may be. The questions,
however, that 1 intend to ask, centre on the education policy and its
objectives,as to which you are testifying as an expert. 1sit your answer
to my question that it is or is not an objectivetoward whicli the education
policyis diiected, that at some time in tfuture there will be a situation
in which there are \+liteinone areaand non-Wiites in other areas-can
that question be answered yes or no?
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:hat question cannot be answered without some
qualifications,ecause with WIiites in one area, in absolute separation,
and others in another area,in absolute separation, thameans there wilI
not even bc:people who come from the one and work in the other.
Mr. G~oss: That is right, tllat would be exactly what would follow.
1s that envisaged as a part of the doctrineofapartheid or separate cle-
velopment 1
Mr. RAUTENBACH N:O,what I seem to remember about this is that we
will always have people coming from over the border to work in the
White area, as far ashuman vision stretches.
Mr. GROSS:Then, on the basis of that response which you have so
clearly stated, how, ifat all,would you explain the Prime Minister's 3B2 SOUTHWEST AFRICA
reference to the limitations imposed on the freedom of people falling
away as soon as everybody can enjoy his own freedom in his own terri-
tory; what relevance, if any, does that statement have with respect to
the non-Whites who will always be, from time to tirne or their life long,
working, living alongside LVhites-what relevance does it have, if any,
this statement?
hlr.RAUTENBAC 1H:till cannot get the giofyour ...
The PRESIDENT 1s the witness being asked this as an educational
expert or in terrns of political policy?
Alr. G~oss:As an educational expert, Sir ,ecause the testimony asI
understand it, and 1may be mistaken-perhaps if 1 am not mistaken,
the testimony will be withdrawn-1 thought that the testimony was
directed to the point that the education system has an objective; that
that objective, arnong others, is part of the policy of apartheid or separate
development. There are therefore certain possible areas of relevance, are
there not, pertaining to the education policy itself, which are governed
by the objective to which the educationaI policy is directed, if you cal1
them political, or economic, or social, or moral or anything 1sit not
correct that the educational policy is directed toward a major objective,
vision or concept-call it what you will-to be applied in the Territory
and in the Repiiblic-isthat not a fair statement?
Mr. RAUTENBACH O:n theface of ityes, but as an educatianist the
major objective of an educational policy is an educationalobjectiand
that is the training of the whoman in a whole comrnunity.
Mr. Grioss: And then perhaps we might come to this question: if you
use the word community, as you just have, what iç the significaofthe
word asapplied to the economy in the southern sector which is described
in the Odendaal Commission report as a modem or exchange sector-
what community do you have in mind in that context!
Mr. RAUTENBACH 1:ave already said that 1have not visited South
West Africa, and I cannot reply to that.
Mr. G~oss: With respect to the Republic, how many non-Whites live
in the so-called White areas, that is to Say the urban or modern economy?
Mr. UUTENBACH1 : thinkby and largeabout one-third-ne-third in
the homelands and one-third in the rural areaç.
Mr.GROss: About one-third?
hlr.RAUTENBA :CHes.
Mr. G~oss: About roughly how many people would that be?
' Mr. RAUTENBAC Hhat would be three to four million, 1 suppose.
Mr. GROSS: With respect to those individuals, or a preponderant
number of them, you are familiargenerally with that aspect of the educa-
tional problcm of South Africa,1 am certain?
Mr. RAUTEN~AC :Hes.
Mr. GROSS: With respect to those people-we come to the same
question, but transposed to South Africa, with ~vhichyou are familiar-
is the education policy pursued with respect to these one-third, let us
Say, directed at the objective of leading them to self-fulfiaçemern-
bers of ethnic communities or the area, the urban White, so-called
economic, community in vhich they liveand work-what is the objec-
tive of the education system,in those terms?
Mr. RAUTENBAC FHo: the foreseeable future 1 think the education
system takes note of bath, and in that connection may 1 refer to the
speech of the Prime Minister, his Declaration ofPolicy, as given on WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 383
7.June 1954 bdore Senate, the Upper House, ïvhere he stated that the
aim or objective ofeducation was preparation of people for work and for
life.He mentioned work and life in own cornmunities, but he also
mentioned the type ofwork availahle for 13antu and others in the White
areas, henlso mentioned that, and that is why, asISay, hehimself in any
case mentioned various aspects of this matter. 1am now referring to his
speech of 1954.
Mr. GROSS T:his is Prime alinister Verwoerd, is it?
3Ir.RAUTESB~IC Tha:tisPrime &finisterVerwoerd in the Senate, yes,
with his Declaration of Policy, after the Act had been passed in Septcm-
ber 19j3-.he also made a speech then, but only brought out two points;
later on he reviewed the whole situation, and this is a whole kind of
philosophy of education, of 13antu education. education in general, and
so on; 1 regard it as a most important speech in that respect.
hlr.G~oss: 1s that the speech in which he said:
"1 just want to remind honourable members that ifthe Xative in
South Africa today inany kind ofschool in existence is being taught
to espect that he will live hadult life under a policy equa.1rigkts,
he is making a big mistakeM-
is that in that same speech?
Mr. RAUTENBAC IHh:ve ..inideait is in that samespeech, and in its
contest it is rather interesting.
Jlr. G~oss: And is it also in that same speech when he said:
"Tlntil now the Native has been subjected to a school system
which drew him away from his own community, and practicalIy
rnisled himby showing him the green pastures of the European, but
still did not allohim to graze there"?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es, it hns that farniliar ring.
JIr. G~oss: When the statement to which you have rcferred, by the
Prime Iilinjster, and other çimilar statements are made, do they envisage
then, in your judgrnent-1 am not speaking poIitically, butofwhat the
education systern is oriented toward-that thcre will be for al1 fore-
seenble future a limitation upon frecdoms of non-Imites who are in so-
called imite areaç, living and working and going toschool there-is thls
the way these statements are fairly to be construed?
&Ir. RAUTENBAC res, and vice versa.
Blr. G~oss:Vice versa meaning, 1take it, that what has been referred
to as the doctrine or principle of reciprocity ienvisaged permanently,
or for the foreseeable future, indefinitely, on tground that, or along-
side the fact that, in the non-White areas, if1Inay cal1 them that, the
Whites mil1be subject likewise ta limitations upon freedom-is this the
basic elernt:nt, or shal1 Say the philosophical basis,of the concept of
apartheid?
&Ir. R.~U.~ENBAG Y es, that is the philosophical one, andwhatismore,
itis the moral one, too, and hlatanzima, theChief Minister of the Trans-
kei, just beforeI had Ieft South Africa, had again informed publicly the
White traders in the Transkei that their sojourn there would always be
of a very ternporary nature.
[Public hearing of 6October19651
please, tothe problem of the segregation of the South African universities384 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
in the terms of your testirnony and its implications, and 1 will attempt
to be somewhat more specific perhaps in certain respects than I was
yesterday.
In the first place, have referred, 1believe, to the fact that 1959
there waç passed in the Republic of South Africa the Extension of
University Education Act. 'I'hatis correct, is it not,Sir? Now. would you
Say, as a general, an1 would Say a rather obvious, rnatter, that in view
of the absence in South West Africa of facilities for higher education,
which is an undisputed fact in the record in so many words, in the
Counter-illemorial, III, page474, that it follows that the systern and
facilitiesn tlie liepublic of South Africa itself constitute for al1practical
purposes the facilities and system for higher education for the Territory
of South West Africa? That would follow, ivould it not, Sir?
Rlr.RAUTENHAC The:fact is that the facilities for higher education
for people from South West Africa are providedinthe Republic of South
Africa at thepresent time.
hlr.GROÇS: Yes, Sir, and there are none others, you agree, in South
West Africa? That is your understanding, is it not, Sir?
h2r.UTES ES HA C H.l'here is no institution afuniversity typein
South West Africa. To my knoivledge there are four teacher training
colleges whjch tend towards tertiary education but they could not be
callcd universit y-lcvel colleges.
Air.G~oss: Yes, Sir. Xom, in going over some of the principal features
of the Extension of University EducatioAct, 1should like firstostart
with the fact that the Act, does it not, provides criminal penalties, in-
cluding imprisonment, for 15'hitepersons attending non-White university
colleges? Isthat correct, Sir?
blr.RAUTESSACH Crirninal...
BIr.GHOSS C:riminal penaltiesYeç, Sir.
Rlr.KAUTESBAC Hu:t how could they attend?
Rlr.GROSÇ : have just asked you whether you know if this in factais
provisioii of the .4ct.
iiIrRAUTEN~AC Ho:,1 do not know that.
Mr. GROSS Vell, it is, 1 believe, the case. The provision is a fine or
six months' imprisonment in the event of a IVhite attending a non-White
university or a non-White attendinga LVhiteuniversity.
The PRESIDESTD : oes that mean, Mr. Gross,a fine or sismonths'
irnprisonment indefault of payment of the fine oan alternative?
Mr. G~oss: It does not specify, Sir. It is apparently discretionary with
the court, Sir.
Could you express an opinion with respect to the reason for such a
criminal provision?
hlr.RAWTENBAC NO.:1did not know about that provision for punish-
ment and 1could hardly imagine a situation in which that would ever
occuror happen. It seems to be rrerjthearetical.
hlr.G~oss: 1 beg your pardon, Sir?
hIr.RAUTEN~~A Cts:ems to be a very theoretical provision, if there
issuch a provisioii.
Mr. GKOSS W:ould you have a comment,Sir, with respect to its policy
implications, if any? The reasonswhy suca1provision would be regarded
asa necessary part of the educational system?
hlr.RZUTENEIAC N O:It ispartof a cornmon system. It would mean
fraud and it ipuniçhment for fraud, not ftrying to become educated. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 385
Mr. GROSS:By fraud do you mean concealing racial origin? 1s that
what you inean, Sir?
Mr. RAUTEXBACH W: ell, an effort at concealnient of colour, etc.
Afr.G~oss: So you would have no other explanation for such aprovi-
sion in the academic scheme other than to avoid concealment of racial
origini
Mr. RAUTESBACH N:O.I would explain it in terms of any ordered and
civilized community which likes to have order and makes provision for
those who do not respect what has been ordered.
hlr. GROSS:Would you Say, Sir, that the appai-ently perceived require-
ment for criminal penalty might imply that thert: is a danger or risk from
the standpoint of the Government-that some iiidividuals might seek to
obtain admission to universities of a different colour,to speak?
hlr. RAUTENBACH : r. President, the whole situation is of such an
imaginary nature, so fantastic, tliat is very difficult for me to express
opinions o~ihypothetical situations.
Mr. G~oss: Do you regard, Sir, the existence afcriminal provision in
this Extension Act as a fantastic provision? 1s that what you mean, Sir?
hlr. RAUTENBACH N:O. The situation which is sketched here, that
something of this kind could happen. 1could hardly imagine it happening,
but if it does happen it is a form of fraud. That is wh1tmean.
Mr. GROSS: Andthat is the only basis upon wliich you can explain the
existence of the provision?
Mr. RACTESBAC 1H:m not a trained labvyei-1 have no experience
of that type-1 could not give al1these explanations.
Air. G~oss: Sir, in your various capacities on ;~dvisorycouncils and so
forth, would you,if it has now come to your attention for the firtirne,
make a recommendation for eIiminatioii or maintenance of that pro-
vision?
The PRESIDENT:Air. Gross, it does not seem to me that that question
has any relevance at all. The Professor is an expert in a certain field. He
says he does not know anything about this particular matter and you
are seeking to estractan opinion from him. Now you are askinghim as
to whether he would make a recommendation in the future. What
relevance haç thnt got to any issue before the Court?
Mr. G~oas: Well, Sir, with respect,1 am ha\*ing a little difficulty in
obtaining from the expert witness his opinion concerning the validity, as
a part of the edricationalystem, of such a criniinal provisionIt is for
that reason that 1 was atternpting to frame my question to elicit an
opinion. Witli respect, Sir, if it is in order and the witness does not wish
to answer, 1 will not press the point.
The PRESIDENT It:is notn qucstion of whether he wishes to answer
but rather whether he is competent to answer a (luestion of that descnp-
tion and whether it is relevant. After alyour difficulty is that yoare
asking the witness about aparticulnr mntter of which he knows nothing,
and asking his opinion upon the mattcr.
Mr. G~oss: 1 will not press this line further, Mr. President.
The next: element in the Act, to which 1would cal1your attention, is
this. Are you ignorant of or famiIiar with the fact that the legislation
omits the so-called conscience clause? Are you fiimiliar with that?
Mr. RAUTEKBAC H :m familiar with that.
bfr. GROSS:Would you explain to the Court,Sir, what the "conscience
clause" is, asitis cornrnonly called?386 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. RAUTENBACHT :he conscience clause is a clause which was em-
bodied in Iegislation referring to higher education, which was passed in
1916, and the conscience clause forbids that in the case of an appointment
or promotion a man's faith, or lack of faith, should be taken into account.
The conscience clause forbids that in examining students, awarding
certificates, classifying students as passing with or without distinction,
that a man's religious faith should play any role whatsoever in these
situations.
Alr.G~oss: Sir, does that clause preirail in reofWhite universities
at the present tirne?
hlr. RAUTENBACH T:he conscience clause prevails in respect of nine of
the ten universities. It does not apply in the case of the University of
Yotchefstroom as regards staff.
Mr. GROSS:Can you explain, Sir, if you know, the reason for that
exception of Potchefstroom?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es, it due to historical reasons. When the Act
was passed incorporating the former UniversityoIlegeinto auniversity,
the legislative body took note of the historical fact thatthe Univeofity
Potchefstroom, like many universities in many countries, also inthe
United States,was establishedby a church and in the Act of the Univer-
sity of Potchefstroom there is a very wide provision that, in the case of
appointments, note could betaken of the historical Christian character
of the institution.
Mr.GROSS :his was, if 1understand it, an exception to the prevailing
policy ofa conscience clause with respect tWhite universities?
Mr. ~UTENBACH: NO. It is not so much an exceptionasit was. There
isanother university which is tending towards that and once had legisla-
tion before Parliament and will probably return again.
Mr. GROSS :Which university?
hlrR.AUTENBACH T:he University of the OrangFree State.
Mr.GROSS: And would you explain whether that also is explained by
the same reasons?
Mr.RAVTENBACN H: .Ithink it can be explained by the fact that the
student population is rather hornogeneous thtxe and there is strong
church support too. Ttis rooted.Itis also its national university, rooted
in the people of that Province and it reflects something of the nature of
those people.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir.
hfr. F~UTENBACB : university should reflect something of the nature
of its community.
Mr.G~oss: Now, Sir, is it a fact, you know, that the legislation to
which we are addressing ourselves omits the conscience clauseAre you
aware of that, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H :as aware of that from the very outset.
Mr.GROSS:Would you explain to the Court the policy, or other consi-
derations ofan educational nature, underlying that omission from the Act?
Mr. RAUTENBACH 1:personally think it asvery fine provisioand 1
think it is an advance on the old conscience clause.
iîlr. G~oss: What is the provision to which you refer, Sir? 1 was
referring to the significance, if any, of the omission £rom the Act of a
conscience clause and my question was whether you could adviçe the
Court what significance, if any, there is £rom the educationpoint of
view with respect to its omission £rom the legislation? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 387
Mr. RAUTENBAC IHeffect, the conscience clause has little real effect
and the omissioii of a conscience clause does not mean the omission in
the South African picture of the freedom of conscience, because freedom
of conscience isuaranteed by the law of the land.
Mr. GROSS But can you not expiain the reason for the omission of the
conscience clause from the Act?
Mr. RAUTEWBX CHe:best reason thaI could give is that there was
no very-good reason for retaiiiing it.
hlr.GKOSS Y:OUdo not regard the omission of the conscience clause as
of significance?
hIr.~UTENBACH :NO.In fact 1 adviçed the tlien Prime hlinister, who
had a disciission with me, to omit it.
Mr. GROSS T:o what?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H: omit the conscience clause.
Mr. GROSS :nd have you advised, Sir, with respect to the omission or
canceliation of the repeal of the conscience clause from the legislation
pertaining to White Schools?
hlr.RAUTENBACH: May 1 just qualify my statement? 3y the then
Prime Blinister1mean Blr. Strijdom, in1957,not Dr. Venvoerd. 1 am
sorry, 1 would like to heyour question again.
Mr. GROSS :W~S just asking you, Sir, whether you have made any
recommenclation with respect to the repeal of the "conscience clause" in
the legislation pertaining to the White universities?
Alr.RAUTEXBAC HO:,it lies outside my province, with the exception
of my own universityand 1 think Icould spend my time in a more
profitable way in the case of my own university than in this or that
repeal. It costs a lot of money to reaelaw, too.
hlr.GROS: As a matter of principle, would you care to express your
view as to whether you would favour the elimination or repeal of the
"conscienci: clause" from the White universities?
hlr.RAUTENBA :IH thecase of my oun university, it would make no
difference whatsoever whetheritstands or whether it is omitted and,
seeing that it would cost some money, well, like oth1rlike to spend
my money, or the university's money,inthe best possible way.
Mr. GROSS : ow, Sir, turningto another question.1 refer to the
regulations proclaimed for students at the so-called or non-White
university colleges, andask you whether you are familiar with the
regulations gazetted for the students atse colleges, Sir?
Mr. F~AUTENBACH: Yes, if these are the regulations which came after
the Act,I am familiar with them because the Council of the University
College, of which I am Chairman, dealt with those regulations and made
our recommendations to the Minister of Rantu Hducation.
Mr. G~oss:Are you familiar,Sir,with theregulationsinvolved in the
White universities?
Mr. RAUTENBACH: 1 am familiar with the regulations involved in the
White universities, particulamy own.
Mr. GROSS 1s there a regulation in your university, for example, Sir,
that studeiits may notleave the college precincts withoupermission
from the hostel superintendant?
Mr. RAUTENRACH T:here is a regulation ai rny university that stu-
dents-it al1depends on what year they are in-but first-year students
rnay only leave the precincts of the residential campus with tper-
mission of the warden or the lady warden of the residence and onay for38s SOUTH N'EST ..\FRIC.-\
number of evenings in the week, but no studentisfree to come and go as
he wishes inmy university.As regards the residential part of the campus,
there is alsa regulation, or a whole set of regulations.
&Ir.GKOSS W:ith respect to the regulati. ..
hlr. RAUTENHACH 1:actualiy meted out punishment sorne time ago
when 15 studcnts were absent when the roll-cal1 was held and 1 took
disciptinarymerisures against two of them.
Mr. CROSS:1s it rcquired that the classmen, or the members of the
universitiesabove the first year, receive permission to leave the college
precincts?
RIr. RAUTENHACH 'l:'es,as faras1 know, that is so.
Jlr. GROSS:In pur university, Sir?
hlr. RAUTESBACA N:O, in rny university it is iiot sTo leave the
college precincts when they are in residence-thejt cannot leave the
college precincts without leave or withoutmaking use of mhat we call
open evenings or open days or weekends, but that does not hold in
the case of leaving the teaching campus because we have off-campus
housing. They may come and go on that as far as they like, but those who
are in lodgings provided by the universit.,we must always know where
they are, even the meinbers omÿ staff leaving tlie campus for more than
24 hours have to leavc their addresses behincl and, if it is during the
week, 1myself or the Deaii must give them 1ea1.eto go.
hlr.G~oss: The student, for example let us say, oa day when there
are no classes, who wishcs to go into town foralf-hourtobuy persona1
effects, does he reqiiire permission for that purpose?
Mr. RAUTEN~~ACN Ho:, he does not require permission because we are
right in the towii itself and theantu colleges are removed at a con-
siderable distance from any town.
BIr.GROSS : see, Sir.
>Ir. RAUTEXHAC That is a vel important difference. Pietersburg,
the nearest to~rlnto the Bantu College of the Xorth, is about16 to 18
miles. You have got to go by bus. How in South Africa, as in many
countries, the parents of students regard the university authoritieas
being inloco pareialiancl if the parent turns up and the boy or gibas
been absent for more than 24hours, or 12hours, they call the university
authorities to account for what has happened.
AlrGKOSS1 :see, Sir. So, if 1understand you correctly, a studmay
not leave the collegc precincts to go to a shop without faculty permission.
1s that correct?
Mr. RAUTENIIAC That is co~rect in the case of TurflooThere is a
shop ISmiles from there.
Mr.GKOSS:That isthe case in what,Sir?
Jlr. RAUTENHACH I: the Bantu College of the North.
Air. GROSS:I ûni talking, Sir, about your university.
PlfrRAUTESHAC H :,I have already said,Mr. President, that those
students \\,ho are in residential halls or dorrnitasithey are called in
America, if absent from a meal have to report, not always to the lady
warden or the warden, but there is a house committee and there are
student advisers,.andif they are absent they have tu report to these,
even during mealtimes, but they can leave outside those hours. The57
cannot leavc inthc evenings without permission and they have got to
sign a book when they come in and they have to sign a register when
they go out. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 389
hlr. G~oss: With respect to one more regulation-1 will not pursue
this too rniich furtheI,just want to get the clarification of the distinc-
tion, if an):, drawinthe regulations gazetted--isit the practice in the
White universities with which you are familiar that no statement may
be given tct the press by, or on bchalf of, the students, without the Rec-
torts permission?
Mr. RAUTENBAC YHe:, that is so iniy ow~iuniversity, but 1 give
permission. again, 1 delegate my authonty tri the Chairman of the
Students' liepresentative Council. He can make declarations, with rny
permission, seeing that 1 have delegated that to him, on student affairs.
bIr. GROS: Do you know the practice, Sir, atother so-calIed White
universitics?
>Ir.RAUTENBAC res, I know the practice . .. You mean in South
Africa?
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir.
ilIr.RAUTENBACH I: South Africa, it is very much the same al1over,
but students do, in fact, make declarations, and at times they are called
to order and at times they are not calIed to order. One has ta use one's
judgment on such matters.
Nr. GHOSS:1s there, so far as you are aware, in the case of the White
universities a regulation proclairned or gazetted which prohibits declara-
tions without permission?
Mr.RAUTENBACH I:the case of the White universities, ourregulations
are not proclaimed or gazetted outsideour own campus and the students
thernselves have made a regulation, in support of a university regulation,
that no man outside the Chairman of the Students' Representative
Council may make apress statement concerning student matters, so that
pari fiassu we also have, on our own campus, niade and proclaimed
regulations.
Mr. GROSS: This, then, Sir, i1 understand, is a matter of, shall we
Say, student self-discipIine or student self-government. 1s that correct?
Mr. RAUTENB~ZCN H:, it is not only a matter of student self-govern-
ment but itis a deIegation of certain authonty to the studenby myself,
as Chairman of Senate. Senafe isthe body, as in the case of the Bantu
colleges, which has sway over student discipline. It stands there, too.
Mr. GROS: Tl-iat policy iç not manifested in, or implemented by, a
regulation, is itSir?
Mr. UU~NBACH: NO,not by a gazetted regulation in the Government
Gazette.
Mr. GROÇS:Yes, Sir.
Mr. RAUTENBAC:H That is the difference.
Mr. GROSS:Yes, Sir. Now, I would like to turn to the organization and
control of t.he non-White colleges1 believe you have testified, Sir, that
the Councils are all-White and the Advisory Councils non-White. 1s that
correct, Sir?
&ZrR.AUTENBAC Hh:at iç entirely correcMs. President.
Mr. GROSS:And, Sir, you have teçtified that tiie Senates are ali-White
and the Advisory Senates non-White. Isthat correct?
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:hat is correct also.
Mr. G~oss: And, Sir, what is the method by ïvhich rnembers of the
Councils and Advisory Councils are selected or appointed?
hlr. RAUTENBACH A:s regards the appointmerit of the Council-1 am
now referring to page 4 of the copy of the Act which 1 have-that wa~390 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
as gazetted, 1do not know whether you ha;e the çame there . ..The
fourth article says that a university college dws consist of . . . and then,
Council, etc., and there is no specific provision here as regards the
qualifications to be heid by members of Council.
Mr. G~oss: Perhaps 1 could assist you to focus on this, and perhaps
Save time, if the President permit1sit not correct that al1the members
of both the Councii and the Advisory Council are appointed by the State
President who designates the Chairman? 1s that correct?
Mr. RAUTENBAC YHe, that is correct but thadoes not signify any
qualifications, excepting1 think, that he should not be bankrupt or
anything of that kind.
Mr. G~oss: I waç not referring to qualifications but to methods of
appointment.
Mr. RAUTENBA :C1am sorry, it was a misunderstanding on my part.
Mr. G~oss: Similarly, isit not correct that, with respect to the White
Senate and the non-White Advisory Senate, the Rector is ex oficio a
member of the Senate, the other members being professors or lecturers
selected by the Minister of Bantu Education,afterconsultation with the
Council? 1s that correct?
Mr. RAUTENEAC That would be correct.
Mr. GROSS: And, with the Council's consent, the Senate may delegate
to the Advisory Senate pawers to deal with rnatters relatinto instruc-
tion, examination and discipline. 1s that correct ?
hlr.~UTENBACH: That is correct.
Mr. GROSS:NOW,with respect to the Çenate and the Advisory Senate
-1 believe that you have agreed thatthe members are appointed by the
Minister ofBantu Education in both cases-is that not so, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hhe rnembers of the Senate?
Mr. G~oss: The members of the Senate and Advisory Senate are ap-
pointed by the Minister of Bantu Education. 1 think you have just
testified to that?
Mr.RAUTEKBA :YHes.
Mr. G~oss: Now, I should likto revert to your testimony of yesterdây,
page 372, SU~Y~,of the verbatim, in which you testified regarding the
method by which members of the Councilof the University ofNatal, 1
believe, are selected. Are you looking at page 372,Sir, of the verbatim?
May 1 read it to the witnessMr, President?
The PRESIDENT:Certainly. 1 think it is near the bottom of page372.
Mr. GROSÇ: Near the bottom of page 372,Sir. You testified in response
tomy question "By whom are they ['they' referring to members of the
Council] appointed?" Your answer was "Only a certain number of mem-
bers are appointed by the State President"and then you went on to Say,
in effectif 1may summarize it briefly, that the State President appoints
about one-third-about eight, and then you described how others were
appointed. Now, Sir, would you explain to the Court, if you will, the
basis of the distinction between the method of selection of members on
an ethnic basisor otherwise,of membeis of the Council, in the case of
thenon-White ascompared to the White universities?
Mr. RAUTENBACH: The basis for this differentiation is that in the one
casewe are dealing with private, State-supporteduniversities, a well-
known type of universityin Britain and ail over the world where there
has been British influence. The imite univerçities have become that type
of university after havingbeen in many cases for a number of years WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
391
State institutions very rnuch like the Bantu State institutions of the
present tinie. TheBantu State colleges are purely State institutions. You
find in every country, even in this country where we are at present,in
the United States, with its famous State universities, that,as in the case
of State universitiesl1over the world, the governing body is appointed
by the public authority. The government paying in this case, beanng the
financial burden up to the extent it does ; the government also, of course,
who pays the piper calIs the tune in this respect; that everywhere where
thereis a State institution, the governing body is appointed bythe State,
whether it is a highly developed country,an under-developed or a de-
veloping country. It is universal.
Rlr.GROS ÇNow Sir, in South Africa itself, if we may confine ourselves
to that at the moment, are there anyState supportedWhite universities?
31r.RAUTENBAC AI:universities are State supported.
blrGROSS Financed?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hi:ancially, yes, up to the extent 66 per cent.
Mr. G~oss: And Sir, à propos the distinction, then, that you draw
between State supported and financed White, as distinguished from non-
White, institutions in respect of the question we are discussing-the
method of selecting the Councils and Senates.1s the distinction based
upon the fact that in one case there IOO per cent. financial support by
the State and the other case, as you mentioned, 66 per cent.?
Mr. RAUTENBACH N:O, it is no100 per cent.-it is closeto IOO per
cent.
Mr. G~oss: In the case of the non-White?
Mr. ~UTENBACH :In the case of the non-White aç was the case my
own institution prior to1917,
Mr. G~oss: Could you clarify again your response to my question in
terrns ofthe reason for the distinction in the method of selecting the
members of the Councils and Senates, respectively, in the non-White and
White schools? You said, if 1 undeistood you, that the reaçon why the
government appointed the members of the Couiicils and Senates in the
non-White institutions was because of the fact that they were financed
by the State.Did 1 understand your answer correctly?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hh:t was my answer-that is oneof the important
considerations-there are others.
Mr. GROSS : ell Sir, before you get to the others, in view of the fact
that, as you have testified, the White institutionor some of them, 1
think you said al1 of them, are also financed by the State, would you
explain why their Councils and Senates are not also appointed by the
Government?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es, that is a rnatter of evoliltion. Therastage
in which the majority of what we today cal1 White universities were in
the very same position that the Bantu institutions are at the present
moment.Theinstitution of which am the acadeniichead was established
in 1908 and up to 1917 it was a State institution and it is written in the
record that not even a wheel-barrow could be bciughtby the Transvaal
University Callegewithout thepermission of the Mirtister.
Mr. GROSS: 1s it not a fact, Sir, that the University College of Fort
Hare in 1959 had on itsCouncil and Senate both White and non-White
perçons? '
Mr. RAUTENBAC Ha:m not sure about that-it can be. Oh yes, they
had in the senate, Professor Jabavu, at one time he was a member of3g2 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Senate, a well-known African and there was a gentleman from America,
a negro, who was professor and who recently returned to South Africa
for a visit-theSenate was a mixed Senate.
Mr. GROSS:The Senate was what, Sir?
hlr.RAUTENBA :WHhat we cal1a mixed Senate.
Mr. G~oss: So that the answer to my question is that it is true that
in 1959 ,he FortHare Council and Senate were composed of 1Thites and
non-Whites.
Mr. RAUTENBAC 1Ham not sure about the Council, Mr. President,
Mr. Gross was asking me a question about the Senate.
Mr. G~0ss: In the work entitled A Decade ofBantu Education by
Muriel Howe, published by the South African Institute of Race Relations
in 1964 in Johannesburg,at page I31,it is stated that at the University
College of Fort Hare in1959 the Council had 19 Whites and 3 African
members, and that the Senate had 21 Whites and 4 Africans. Do you
dispute the accuracy of that?
Mr. RAUTENBAC NH:, it is quite possible.
Mr. GROSS: Now Sir, when you speak about evolution as explaining
why there are IOO per cent, government appointed non-White Councils
and Senates as distinguished from the practice with respect to Whites-
would you not agree that in view of the change that has been made with
respect to the University of Fort Hare that this is evolution in reverse?
Mr. RAUTENBAC HO:N',before 1 can reply to that, it would help me
if1 were to know if those members of the Council mentioned there were
not members of the Senate who had been elected by the Senate to the
Council. Under the old system the Senate had a certain nurnber of
representatives on the Council, but it wouldnol change the fact that
there could have been Coloured members of Coiincil.
Mr. G~oss: Well, there were non-White members of Council. In fact
rny question to you is whether the changeover, by reason of the1959
legislation and its implementation at Fort Hare, asan exarnple, to an al1
governmentally appointed White Council and White Senate, would not
be evolution backwards?
kir.RAUTENBAC H :,because there was aIso a parallel evoluiion and
that was that the government prior to1959had subsidized Fort Hare in
the same way as the so-called White universitics, and af1959 a new
system of financing the university arose and parallel with the new system
of financing the university, as 1saitbeca.me a State institution. Once
you have a State institution, theisthe tendency inal1countries of the
world that the governing body shall consist of appointees of government,
and what isreferred to now as the evolutionary lies ahead in so far as the
advisory council will in due time take over the whole job of governing the
university; it has already taken over certain parts which have been
delegated as mentioned in the Act, the possibility was stated aithas
been exploited.
Mr. G~oss: I plead guilty to confusing you with the forrn of my ques-
tion.1 am afraid 1confused two things and 1think it may be important
to clarifyit.1 referred,I am afraid without specification, to the two
problems: one, the method of appointment of the Council and the Senate
rnembership and two, the question of its composition. on an ethnic basis.
Now at the moment, just for the sake of clarity, since 1 am af1aput
the two into one questiori beforIam referring solely to the questio1.iof
the racialor ethnic composition of the Council and Senate anask you WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 393
again, ifimay, to avoid any confusion in your mind bmy previous form
of question, whether in respeofthe ethnic or racial composition of the,
let us Say, Council and Senate of Fort Hare, which is now al1 Whiteat
the Council and Senate level and al1non-White at the advisory level, so
to speak-whether that change from the previous mixed system of
governrnent of the university is noa step backwards?
MT. RAUTENBAGH M y reply to that is thaitis a step forwards and
the reasonisthat now theAdvisory Council is a body,no longer two or
three rnembers sittingthere, butrbody. with its own Chairman and also
a member of that ethnic group. That body is preparing itself for the take-
over. and theopportunity ofinvolving more leadersofthese communities
in a body with a certain status, and a very higli status, is a great step
forward in the participation of that group and its leaders in the govern-
ment of the university.
Rlr. G~oss: Sirin what respect if anp iit a stepforward or a great
leap fonvard, or whatever formulation you wish, to have adopted legisla-
tion which eliminated the possibility of continuing the membership on
the Council of non-Whites who had participated as rnembers for some
years-in what respect is that a step foîw:trd?
Mr. RAUTENBACIH f,to use the word ofMr. Gross, they were eIimi-
nated from the one and there had been no provision elsetvhere, that would
have been a step backwards-not one, it would have been a dozen steps
backwards-but seeing that the provisioii was made by the Act else-
where and seeing there ia blueprint showiiiwha.tthe end of this process
of evolutio~i should beIdo not think it was a step backwards but. as1
Say, aleap forurard.
Jlr. GROSS:Well Sir, when you used the word "elselvhere" are there
any non-White colleges in the Republic wliichhave mised Councils?
Mr. KAUTEXBAC Hot to my knowledge.
Mr. GROSS-:4nd when you say"elsewhere" what do you mean by that,
dl,:
%Ir.RAUTE~~'BA Chose people who lost membership of the Council
at Fort Hare or men of their standing are now accommodated inthe
Advisory Council.
Mr. G~oss: 13y elsewhereyoii meant that they were rnoved from the
Council tothe Advisory Council-is that what OU meant by "elsewhere"'
Sir?
BIr.RAUTENBACH Y es.1 would not Say these individuals asuch,but
the type of man, the leader.
Mr. G~oss: You mean the non-Whites, Sir,don't you?
Mr. RAUTENBAC YHes, 1mcan the non-IVhites, what we are referring
to, both of us. -
&Ir.G~oss: Kow therefore, you think this was a step forward to make
a provision whereby non-imites who had previously served as members
of the Council were given opportunities "elsewhere", which means to
serve as membeis of the Advisory Council. 1s that what you mean,
sir?
Alr.KAUTEXBAC THhat is precisely and exactly what 1 mean.
&Ir.G~oss: And you regard that as a step fonvard, Sir?
31r.RAUTENBACH ASa step forward of more than three feet.
Mr. CROSSN : owSir,did you not statethatitwas the objective that in
due course that rion-\%'hitesuld serve on the Council itself?
MT. RI^^'^^^^,^^^:Yes, 1 did Say that.394 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
hlr.GROSS :Othat would be a step fonvard, would it, when that great
day cornes, Sir?
Mr. RAVTENBACH I:would be a step forward when that is envisaged
and camed out in an honest rnanner.
hir. GROSS :ssuming that it would be carried out honestly, would it
be then fair to surnmarize your testimony saying that it was a step
fonvard when the non-Whites are excluded from the Council and it will
be a step forward when the non-imites are again admitted to the
Council? 1s that not then the sumrnation of your testimony on this point?
Mr. RAVTENBAC : Ho, that is not the summation of my testimonp.
hlr. G~oss: Well, wouId you clarify it in any respect that you feel
appropriate?
Mr.RAUTENBAC Heç, 1could clarifit on one point. AIr.President,
when the Select Comrnittee of Parliament was appointed to report to
Parliament on the proposed legislatio1gave testimony before and sub-
mitted a rnemorandum before that Select Committee, 1 advised that the
best way would be to have what 1called this morning "a mixed Council"
and a "mixed Senate"-1 advised that, that wamy recommendation,
hlrG~oss: As they had in ...
The PRESIDENT 1:think the witness ought to finish his explanation.
Mr. GROSS :thought he had finished. Please continue.
Mr. RAUTENBAC That was rny idea-1 made this suggestion. The
Chairman of that Select Committee asked me the folIowing question:
what would you do if an African leader, an educ;itionaIist, a good aan,
sound man-if 1 inforrn you now that he asked that we should not do
that and he gave the following reasons: when we sit there together with
White people, one of two things happen-we just go along with them as
if they were alwayç right or we have a tendency to go in the oppoçite
direction because they are White; please leave us out of this at this stage,
and let us have a body by ourselves where we can develop. Then, when
the Act came along, 1 thought it was a very elegant solution. 1 did not
get my way, but ifthatwas desired on the partof leaders of the Bantu,
then, well, after all, onehas to take note of how wish to havethings
done and they wish to develop. My words were quoted in the minority
report presented to Parliarnent, they are on record.
Mr. GROSS: 1s iyour testimony, then, thata reason for the exclusion
of non-iVhites frorn mernbership in the Council or Senisethatit ithe
wish or will or preference of the non-1Vhites thernselves1sthat your
testirnony ?
Mr. RAUTENBAC1 H:must say now that it certainly had a great in-
fluence, because that was what actually happened: that the idea of a
joint council was dropped,which 1had suggested, or a jointsenate,and
a rather elegant devjce evoIvedand thatwas the otheroneof having the
two bodies and the blueprint; we should not think of the two bodies
without the blueprint, or refuse to develop it.
hlr.GROSS :re you farniliarwith the events which took place in Octo-
ber 1959 when the Fort Hare students adopted aresolution with regard
to the matter of the changes contemplated in the legislation?
Mr.RAUTENBAC Hes, that was general familiarity with students on
campuses of al1types, and their acts andactions. protests, etc.
Mr.GROS:I refer to the resolution which is set forth in the Sunday
Times of Ir October 1959 ,s follows. This was adopteby the Fort Hare
students: WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 395
"The Government in its dictatorial action in dismissing our staff
members without stating any reasons has added to the atmosphere
of insecurity and uncertainty that has engulfed Fort Hare during
the past few years. This atmosphere makes the normal pursuit of
academic activities almost impossible, but let be noted once and
for al1 that our stand as students of Fort Hare, and as the future
leaders of our country, upholding the principles of education as
universally accepted, remains unchanged and oncompromising. Our
outright condemnation of the university apartheid legislation re-
mains steadfast."
Were you familiar. with that resolution at the time?
Mr.RAVTENBACH Y:esI also read the SuladaTimes.
Mr. GROS SThe reference to the resignation of the staffyou know
how many members of the staff of Fort Hare resigned?
Mr. RAUTENBAC HO:,1 know some members resigned.
Mr. G~oss: Do you know the reasons they asjigned for their resigna-
tions?
Mr.RAUTENBACH T:he real reasons, or the reasons they gave?
Mr. GROSS1 :asked you for the reasons they assigned. We can go into
their motivation, if you wish to, later, but first wouldyou be good
enough to answer my question?
Rlr. RAUTENBACH 1:also reain the S~nday Times about their reasons.
Air. GROSS: What reasons did they assign, according to your infor-
mation?
&Ir.RAUTENBAC n:a general way-it is now sorne years ago-sorne4
of them expressed this idea: they were no longer prepared to serve in this
kind of insl,itution, which has a tribal character, which sins against every
possible principle of university education, etc. These were the general
reasons published in South Africa.
Mr. GROSS:It was, in sum, based upon opposition to the changes
proposed by the legislation, waitnot?
hIr.RAUTENBAC H:s, in the general way, opposed to the principles
embodied in the legislation.
Mr. G~oss: 1s it true also that in1960 eleveil students were not re-
admitted? Are you aware of that fact?
Mr. RAVTENBACH Y:es,1 am aware of that fact.
Mr. GROÇS: And that the Minister of Bantu Education, explaining
their exclusion-this is frorn Hansard of 8 March1960, column 2927-
said that tfieir re-admission "was not considebydme to be in the best
interests of the college because of their activities in 1959". Two of these,
incidentally,were postgraduate students; one had completed eight
university courses, two had completed seven courses,one six coursDO.
vou know anythinp ..,ut this incident, further than what you have
testified?
Mr.RAUTENBAC 1Hk:nowabout that incident,and IaIso know thatit
is part and parce1 of every university act that if the university council
does not consider it in the interest of the university, it need not acce.t
the registration of a studentItholds alsoin the case of my university
and other universities-al1university institutions in South Afnca; with-
out giving a reason, we need not register a student.
hlr. G~oss:Here there was a reason given, andmy staternent to you,
ifI may pursue it one notch farther, was that they were not re-admitted
because of their activities 1959. Could you explain to the Court, on3g6 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
the basis of your knowledge or information, whether thisexplanation
referred to anSractivities of these students other than in connection with
the resolution which1have quoted?
&Ir.RAUTESBACH S:, Mr. President-Mr. Cross has read that the
hlinister hasaid "owing to their activities in 19jg"-this the reason
he gave, and that is the reas1read alsoin the newspaper report othe
sessions of Parliament.
Mr. CROSS :ou know of no other activities in1959 for wliich these
students might have been disciplined, other than their activitiesin
connection with this resolution? That my question.
Mr. RAVTENBAC NHo; 1 do not know the detaiof disciplinary mea-
sures against students other than these in that yeardo not advertise
discipiinary rneasures a rule,u7ekeep itas a private matter.
Mr. G~ioss:Thank you. Now, with respect to the testimony which you
gave on Monday, 4 October, at page338, supra. 1 will read it, if the
President permits. Counsel, AIr. Grosskopf, asked whether you saw any
value in the intellectual contaon the staffs of these Hantu university
colleges between the various groups represented thcrI should like to
place ÿour response into the record, with the President's permission,
because of subsequent queçtions. Your answer was:
"l'es, on the campus ofthe Bantu College of the North tliere is
association as between the White members of staff and theBantu
members of staffThere iç intellectual associatThey meet. The);
come to know each other. They come to appreciate each other. 1
think they come to know each other's problems. 1 think there is
great advantage in this association. In fact, &Ir.Presid1nhave,
mysetf, gaineda good dealofknowledge for rnyoivnwork in advising
the government on education from association with the Professor of
Practical Education at the Bantu College of the North, Professor
Kgnari, whom 1have often met in his office."
CVith your recollection of that testimony refreshed, thiisa correct
version of your testimony, is it?
hlr.RAUTEXBAC Th: word "often" should corne out-"whom 1have
met"-1 would not over-emphasize that "often''.
Mr. GROSS W:hen you Say "wllom 1have met often in his office" you
would clelete, witthe President's permission, the word "often"?
Mr. RAUTENHAC YHe.
hlr.G~oss: Could that be done, Mt.President?
The PRESIDENT Itis a correction whichyou are giving as evidence
nom??
&Ir.GROSS Y:es, Sir.
The PRESIDEST T:hen it need not be omitted, it is simply recorded in
the transcript.
hlr.G~oss: Would the intellectual association to which you refer, and
the benefits you testified you derivedm the association, be unusual in
connection withthe relationship between ijthites and non-\trhites on the
staffsofuniversities?
Mr. RAUTENBAC NH:,that\vould notbe unusual.
Mr. GROSS :hat would be a normal incident of the relationship be-
tween the various staff groupof different raccs or ethnic groups?
Mr. KAUTEKBAC YHe, on thesame campus.
Mr. GROSSA :nd would pou Say whether the contact-"association", WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 397
to use your word-between these groups, hetwcen the staff members of
various etlinic groups, has produced, in your own words, "better under-
standing" of each other's problem in the sense of their educational,
social,economic, po1iticaI problems?
Mr. RAUTENBACH 1 :would say that,and 1coiiId give reasons for that.
&Ir.GROÇS:Pcrhaps the Court would be interested in your reasons.
BIr.RAUTEKBAC Hh: Rantu College of the North is situated in the
Pietersburg djstrict, a district chiefly populated by Afrikaans-speaking
farmers, arid like most rural people, on the conservative side. Now since
the college was established in 1960 and came to be better known, ithas
happened that on various occasions a Bantu member of staff has ad-
dressed a White gnthering, a meeting of Whites, on university and aca-
demic matters, and a good dcal of prejudice in that very conservative
area against the very presence of the Rantu College of the North in its
ou7nenvironment has been removed. In fact, thel-eisan appreciation now
for the very presence of this Bantu college, and the idea which is em-
bodied there, and the ideals which are strived after. Just before 1left the
country, about two weeks ago, there was a report on an address which
had been given to one of the clubs in Pietersburg itself consisting of
Young businessmen in the town and coming from outlying districts, and
the address was given by one of the Bantu mernbers of the staff of the
University ColIege of the North, Professor Kgnari also has addressed
people, Whites have been invited to certain meetings, and I remember
this education man-1 was not there, but1had rr:ports from the Rector-
addressing a group of people, and thevery fact of Whites who have not
had the opportunity of hearing a coloured man of learning and culture
and civilizntion, that very fact has had its beneficial influence.
Mr. G~oss: Would you agree, as a distinguished educator, ttiat itais
virtue, and indeed, perhaps one may say a giory, of the university that
it provides the facility for bringingtogether persons of diverse back-
grounds-c:conomic, racial and other? Would you Say that is one of the
central, cardinal features of the universitv?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H:O,1 would say thst is an important feature.
Rlr.GROSS: But you would not minimiae its importance, or would lrou,
as an educator?
Mr. RA~JTENBACH T:here are various ways of establishing contact
between academics outside actual, physical contact in each other's
presence, but itis one way of doing it, and there is this, let us say, world-
wide cornniunication at the present time, but there is another way of
doing it: this very man 1 am mentioning was a recipient of a State
Department gralit and visited the United States, this Rantu;1 read the
report just after had visited the States, and that established contact as
between him and other people again-that is anotherway of doing it.
Mr. GROSS :hen you would Say, would you, that the increase of con-
tacts ofvarious types is of constructive and beneficial value?
hlr.RAUTEKB~~C ItHi: ofconstructiveand beneficial valuif it does
not take place at the expense of the most important part of any campus,
and that is instruction or teaching and research and education in general.
blr.G~oss :4nd in what respect would you advise the Court that there
would be such obstruction arising fromthe contacts in question?
hIr. KAUTENBACH N:O,1 never used the word "obstruction".
Nr. GROSS:1 beg your pardon, 1 miçunderstood you-what word did
you use?3g8 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Ur. RAUTENBAC1 H:o not remember using a word which could be
interpretedas meaning obstruction.
&Ir.G~oss: To get to the point: 1 am attempting to elicit from you,
for the benefit of the Court, if it wishes, what obstacles or disadvantages
there are in the negative sidof the balance sheet, so to speak, with re-
gard to contacts which have these advantages of which you have spoken.
Mr. RAUTENBAC1H t:ink it was as a result of the word1used, that
as long as the primary task is carried out on the campus, then that other
very important matter can also be tackled, but the one should not be
done ai the expense of the other. Ry that 1 mean that this new type of
academic who is either always on his way towards an airport or from an
airportjsnot alwaqa an aset to a university.
Mr. GROSS: Regarding the advantages which derive from the type of
contacts we are discussing, which you have testified appertain at the staff
level. Would you regard that similar values would attach to contacts
between the members of the Council and the Advisory Council, and
betiveen the Senate and the Advisory Senate, respectively? Would they
also benefit from the type of contact to which you refer and for the same
reasons?
3Ir.RAUTENBAC AH:ype of contact would be beneficial.
Mr. GROÇS: Sir, would there, for example-to discuss for a moment
the desirability or advantagesifany, of having a mixed college Council
-be advantages of cIoseness of contact and understanding by participa-
tion inthe deliberationsof theCouncil itself?
Mr. RAUTENBAC AHfer having seen the new system in action, and
having watched it closely, that is, where there a separate college coun-
cil and advisory council with the link in between, theRector who, ex
officiois amember of the Advisory Council, and, by the way, the Chair-
man of Council may visit the Advisory Council, 1have changed my mind
about that since Igave evidence before the Select Committee of Parlia-
ment.
&IrGROSS :t is your present view, Sir, that there would be advantages
derived from closer contact through cornmon or rnixedmernbership?
bIr.RAUTEXB.~CN Ho:, 1 overeçtimated the advantages when 1 gave
evidence before the SelectCornmittee.
Mr. GROSS :ias there been any experience, Sir, sincc 1959. which
changed your opinion in that respect?
hlr.RAUTENBAC Ye:, and the experience has been that the Advisory
Council is doing such a good job of work without the presence of Whites
that1 do not see that it is very necessary that itveshould meet face to
face always.
Mr. GROSS : nd, conversely, wouldyou Say that the White Council is
doing so well without thpresence of non-Whites that there is no reason,
£rom that pointof view, tomix it again as itwas at Fort Hare in .. .?
Mr. RAUTENBAC NHO:seeing thattheWhite Council gets the minutes
and agenda of the Advisory Council and, besides that, having the link
betitveen the two bodies in the Rector of the university, we have fou?d
no necessity, outside of asking the Rector some questions about certain
resolutions, to have a meeting otomeet each other.
hlr.GROSS S:ir, would it be fair to say that (to summarizeyour testi-
mony on this point) the collaboration which takes place between the
Council and the Advisory Council takes place in various forms, but does
not include joint deliberations? 1s that a correct statement? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 399
Mr. RAUTENBAC That is a correct statement.
Jlr. GROSS:And the reason against çuch joiiit deliberationsiswhat,
Sir?
Mr. RAUTENRACH T:he reason 1 gave was the reason given at that
time by a Ieading Bantu educationalist expressing preference for a
separate body for foreseeable time.
Mr. GRCISS Sir, are you familiar with tlie reason given by the Minister
of Bantu Education for the changeover from the mixed to the racial
composition of the Fort Hare College?
Mr. RAIJTENBAC NHO, not Fort Hare particularly,but in a gencraI
way the whole policy. 1 am acquainted, by and large, with that-the
whole baclrground. 1 have served on occasions . . .
hfr.GROSÇ: Waving read Hansard ...
Rlr. RAVTENBACH T:hat \vas some yearç ago.
hlr. G~oss: Could 1 rernind you, Sir, that it was in 1959that the
Minister of Bantu Education, in the Assembly (and this is iHansard 5
and 12 of 1959,Colurnns 50and 60 and Columns 4443-4453) explainedas
follows:(1 paraphrase to Save the Court's time, but the reference is to
the actual language in theHansard.)
"In the past, White and non-White persons had served on the
Counçil and Senate [and this had been Fort Hare] and had been
accommodated on a baçis of equality. [The Minister went on, too, in
his explanation tosay that] This must inevitably create the fallacious
impression arnong the non-Whites that apartheid was something
which disappeared when one attained a certain academic level, that
academic training wouId remove discrimination in South Africa. AS
a result the students would become agitatect against the racial order
in South Afnca instead of valuable members of their own com-
munity."
Now, Sir, is the Minister's explanation familiar to you?
Jlr.RAUTEXBAG 1Hdid not remember those specific words.
Mr. GROSS:Those were not his exact words. I have surnmarized his
words. Would you Say that, on the basis of . . .
The PRISSIDENIT f:you could surnmarize words in tliat description,
Mr. Gross, you could quote the precise words.
Mr. GRCISSS : ir1 do not have with me the Hansard. 1have quoted
from an authoritative work, whicli 1 have cited A Decade of Bu?ztzc
Edzrcationby MurieI Horrell, published by the South African Institute of
Race Relations, to which Ihave referred.
The PRESIDEKT:It is not unusual, you knour,in books which are
written by people that the çummary, when it is esamined with the
document or the materiai frorn which the summary is made, is not a
completel?; true refiection.
hlr. GROSS:Mr. President, with respect and with gratitude for pointing
itout, 1have attempted to make clear in the record that these are not
the words. 1 have asked the witness whether or not he is familiar with
the speech and, having read the summary from this work, 1 have, Sir,
asked the witness whether he is familiar with the original, and isas
far as1 have proposed to go because of the very point the honourüble
President lias made.
The PRESIDEKT T hank you very much.
Mr. GROSS:Would you Say, then, Sir,whether you are familiar with40° SOUTH WEST AFRICB
the language aciually used by the Rlinister of Bantu Educationin that
speech?
ah. R~UTENBAC : Hamiliar with the ianguage?
Xr. G~oss: You are, or arc notSir?
Nr. RAUTEXBACH I: a general way, yes, but 1 cannot quote the
words . . .
hlr.GROSS1 : would not ask you to do that,[Sir.
airRAUTENBAC :Hnd 1cannot judgewords whichare not quotedmordç.
air. GROSS:On the baçis of your general familiarity, would you Say
whether or not you regard this summary by Miss Horrell in this ivoas
a fair summary, or can you ansiverthat question?
Mr. R-IUTENBAC Ho. 1do not regard that as a fair summary of the
motivation for the establishment of separate universities and the form
of governments. It is slantecl.
hlr. G~oss: 1 see, Sir. With regard to the slanting of this summary,
would you Say, Sir,on the basis of your knowledge or recollection of the
speech in question, that thpolicyof changeover from the rnised to, shall
we say, segregated governing body of Fort Hare was related in any way
to the governmental policy of apartheid or separate devetopment in the
educational systernas amatter ofprinciple?
hlr.RAUTENHAC YHes. 1really think that at that stage it brought the
Bantu universities into line with the general policy of the Government.
Mr. GROSS :nd would you agree, Sir, that thi: reasofor thechange
was to bring the situation in Port Hare in line with the Government
policy ofstrict separation?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H :th the Governrnent poiicy of separation fothe
sake of those communities. Itis always halfa statement to concentrate
on the means and not the objectives or the aims.
Mr. GROSS :or the sake of those cornmunitiec?
hir.RXUTEYBAC 'es, and forpeaceful CO-existence.
hlrG~oss: Ycs, Sir.Now, theseare the reasons for the rigid separation
which, of course, are very prominent in the records. The answer to my
question, I takeit, is thfor reasonswhich you regardas excellentSir,
the reason for the change-over was to bring Fort Hare inline with the
governrnental apartheid policy. Thatiscorrect, is it not, Sir?
>Ir.RAUTEX'BAC le:, that is correct.
&Ir.GROSSN : ow, Sir, regarding the general attitude prevailing about
the period 1957-195 R9propos of vour testimony,interalia, with regard
to the attitude of certain indiiGduals, White or non-White, on the
segregation policies, 1 would like ask you, Sir,whether you foilomed
during 1gj7-1959 the various positions taken pro and con by authorities
with regard to the legislationhen under discussion?
Mr. RAUTEXBA C1took a gooc1deal of notice of what was happening
in South Africa and outsideSouth Africa.
Alr. G~oss:And you would regard yourself as rather welt-informed on
those developments at that time, Sir?
PrlrRAUTENBACH A: relatively well-informed. 1 cauld not declare
myself an expert.
Mr. GROSS : re you acquainted ~z7ithtlie work which was the joint
product of the Universities of Witwatersrand and of Cape Town, pub-
lished under the heading The Open Universitics in South Africa and
published in Johannesburg, Witwatersrand University Press,19571 l'ou
are familiar with that? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 401
AIT.RAUTEXBAC Iam: familiar with that. 1 had about half a dozen
copies sent to me. 1 read one of thern.
Rh. G~iciss:Yes, Sir. Did you comment on it in writing or otherwise
after you had read one of the six copies?
nlr.RAUTENBACFI: In articles 1 publisheù 1 commented on certain of
the ideas which had been expressecl and one article was the article on
Sir Eric Ashby's speechon the occasion of one of these ceremonies.
hlr.GROSS W: ell, Sir, lest there be any confuIiam referring to the
documeiit The Ope?& Univevsiliesin SoutlzAlrira, which was publishecl
"pursuant to and as a result of the Conference convened in Cape Town
in Jaiiuar~1957 and 3.ttended by authorized representativesofthe two
universities, senior membersof the academic staffs and members of the
two university councils". Thiisquoted from ttie preface in this volume
to which I have referred. Are you familiar with that work, Sir?
Mr. ~~AL~TENBACH: Yes, 1 am familiar with ail these agitations.
Mr. G~oss: All these what?
hIr.RA~TTESBA :A gitations.
JIr.GROSS :ou describe this document as an agitation, Sir?
blr.RAUTENSAC NO:,but the whole procesç during that time-the
events on al1sides-were ...
hlr.GRGSS: On al1 sides was there a seriof agitations and counter-
agitations? 1s that how yau would describe the diçcussions at that time?
hlr.KAUTENBAC Yes. You were referring to the period1957-1959
and there was a goocl deal of agitation on botli sidesinthat period;
mernorialsand counter-memorials, marches and counter-marches on the
side of the students and, in the long run, some z~cademicstoo.
Mr. G~ross:1 see, When you used the term "agitation" in respect of
this publicationw3s it your intention to impeach its authority by use of
that term?
AIr. R.AUTESBAC NHo: not to impeach its authority that it is an
account of what happened and what was said, but when 1 Say agitation
it is iiot the typofdiscussion, exposition, which has arisen since then
and which one associates more with the university and the university
atmosphere. As 1say, it is on both side1.do not want to im~ieach the
one sicle-one is like the other.
hlr.GROSS S:OW,1would just like to cIarify your use thatterm, Sir.
It is true, is it not, that the prefacc is signed by former Justice Centlivres,
who was then Chancellor of the University of Cape Town,andby Richard
Feetl-iani, who was Chancellor of the University of \h7itwatersrand? l'ou
are familiar with thefnct, Sir?
&Ir.RAUTESBAC 1Ham famiIiar with that fact and 1knew eu-Justice
Feetham very well.
RIr.GROSS n the preface, Sir, agaito weighits value in terms of its
acceptability as an authorityit states that the book-
"clearly reveals the far-reaching character of the issuesbyathed
Government's proposal and no one who recognises the gravity of
tliese issues, in their bearing on the future welfare of South Africa,
can al'fordto ignore the strength of the cas{:made in support of the
claim of the open universities that they should not be deprived of
frcedom to coritiniie to exercise their existing rights. Keaders will
renliçe that the plea of the open universitisnot only a plea for
the preservation of their own freedom, but a plea for the preserva-
tion of the freedom of every South African universitp."402 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Would yoü agree, Sir, with the charactenzationof the issues involveas
of gravity and having a bearing on the future welfaof South Africa?
Mr. RAUTENBA CIHwould agree that the issuesbejng raised at that
time and being discussed were of importance and are stilofimportance
for the future welfare of South Africa. But that does not mean that 1
agree that what was at stake is as described in that particular booklet.
Mr.GROSS A:reyou referring now,Sir, tothe merits, or otherwise, of
the pronouncements or conclusions reached?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es.
Mr. GROSS:Turning to those, Sir, if 1may, 1 refer to page5,which is
under the heading of "The Essence ofthe Case" and, for convenience,
attempts to summarize the essence of the problem. The first point is,
Sir-to which 1 will ask you whether you agree or disagree-
"The open universities declare that legislative enforcernent of
academic çegregation on racial groundç isan unwarranted inter-
ference with,university autonorny and academic freedom. These are
values which should not be interfered with, Save with the utmost
circumspection; and the onus lies uponany government which con-
templates such interference to justify its proposed action clearly and
irrefutably."
Pausing there, would you agree or disagree with that statement?
The PRESIDEN Th:ere are a number of staternents there, Mr. Gross.
This type of question has bcen rcferred more than once. When you are
cross-examining an expert in respecof something said by somebody elçe
itdoes not give the expert an opportunity to consider his replnoris it
of great assistance to the Court, if you read a statement containing a
number of allegations. Why don't you put the allegations specifically to
the witness, as you have done on previous occasions? That is the correct
way, if 1may Say so, to seek to cross-examinan expert witness.
Mr. G~oss: The two sentences which Ihave read are interrelateand
1 had thought that they encompassed one thought. 1will, however, read
each sentence and ask whether it contains more than one idea. 1 find it
somewhat difficult to break it down without destroying the contest, Sir.
The first sentence is:
"The open universities declare that legislative enforcement of
academic segregation on racial grounds is an unwarranted inter-
ference with university autonomy and academic freedorn."
If there is not more than one thought in that, Sir, would you express
agreement or disagreement with that çtatement?
MT. RAU~ENBAC Ht:rting at the end, because there are also three or
four statements in what you have read, there are two concepts at the
end, academic freedom and autonomy.
Mr. G~oss: Would you distinguish between the two for the purpose of
my question? Let us take first the statement that "the open universities
declare that legislative enforcement of academic segregation on racial
grounds isan unwarranted interference with university autonomy". 110
you agree with that statement by these authorities?
AIr.RAUTENBAC XHO,1 do not agree with that statement because it
doeç not statethe whole of the situation.
&IrGROSÇ hat important element has it omitted, Sir, from the point
of view of your agreement or partial disagreement?
Mr. RAUTESBA CThat what is called "academic segregation" there WlTNESSES AND EXPERTS 4O3
is rejected wiihout giving a fuil expianation or a somewhat wider es-
planation of what the aims were of establishidg separate institutions.
Mr.GRCISS W:ith respect to this sentence, ando1not mean toparse
it, Sir, bu1 want to be sure that we understand it in the same way-I
understand this sentence to emphasize legislative enforcement. This is
the essence of the case, one of the key paragraphs. "The open universities
declare that legislative en/orcemeîct of academic segregation on racial
grounds is an unwarranted interference with university autonomyW-we
stop there. Do you disagree regarding the conclusion that legislative
enforcement of academic segregation is an unwarranted interference with
universi ty autonomy ?
Nr. RAUTENB~~C NO:.1do not agree with that in South Africa in its
own peculiar situation.
>Ir. G~oss:Now, Sir, would yoii then explain why you disagree in
respect of the desirability orhenvise of enforcing this segregation by
legislative enforcement?
hlr. G~oss: Dr. Rautenbach, 1 believe you ïvere about to answer or
would you prefer to have the question re-stated withthe President's
permission?
Mr.RAIJTENBAC IW:OUI~ preferto have itre-statedplease.
Mr. GRCISS As closely aI can recall it, it related to the basis of your
disagreement, whole or partial as it rnbe,with the pronouncement of
the authorities we have been discussing, thatopen universities declare
that legislative enforcement of academic segregation on racial grounds is
an unwarianted interference withthe university autonomy. The em-
phasis, Sir1 thought, is on legislative enforcement, and we were at the
point, 1believe, of your esplaining to the Court why you disagreed with
thisstatement's emphasis on the undesirability of hgislative enforcement
as a method for bnnging universityapartheid iilto being.
&Ir.RAUTESSAC H ing the same emphasis of legislative enforcement,
1 agree that these things can and should be donby legislative enforce-
ment even if there is autonomy and freedom. even as 1 agree that in
certain countries, under certain conditions, integration in universities
of al1racial groups should be brought abouby legislative enforcement.
Mr. G~oss: In other words, you are referring in the latter connection
1 take it to certain policies and certain States which by law or otherwise
prohibit segregation or discrimination in education-isthat what you
are referririg to, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC HO:,not only prohibit but prescribe intervention
and 1 am referring, of course, in this case tothe United States of America,
where so much was spent after the Supreme Court gave its verdlct on
these matters and spent on that legislation thouçands and thousands of
dollarsanci the employment even of armed forces to enforce it; that is
something beyond the "legislative" of course, theiresult of legislation.
I would agree that there \vajustification for that.
Mr. GROSS : think we need not, unless the Court wishes, get inta
discussion of the Constitutional position of the United States. However,
1 take it that you do not agree with a policy which would prohibit segrega-
tion in Soiith Africa-thatis self-evident, itnot, Sir? Do you under-
stand my cluestion?
Mr. KAUTEKBACH At this present junctureI would not agree, if 1
have taken the question correctly, with legislation. At l1awould be
against legislation which wouldnforce integration.4O4 SOUTH N'EST AFRICA
Jfr. GRQSS: bi'hich would prohibit separation, Sir, or is that just
another ivay of saying the same thing?
Mr.RAUTEXBAC THhat is another way of saying the same thirig.
Mr. G~oss: l'our preference ivouldbe toput it the other way. Xow
with respect to the legislative enforcement of iiniversity apartheid or
separation (in the words of thereport it is apartheid), wyoudsagrSir,
that the desirability, in your terms, of legislative enforcenicnt, rcsts upon
the unwillingness of tlie universities themselves to apply the policy of
apartheid? Would you say that enters into the problem and justifies
legislative enforcement?
Mr. RAUTENHACN HO:,1could not say that in face of tfact that at
the University of Natal there was voluntary segregation, and eveii in the
case of this University the Icgislation brought about a new state of
affairs.
Alr.GROSSS : irwith respect for a moment to these universities which
have been described as the open universities as distinguished from
Satd ...
>Ir.RAUTE~BACH Natal regards itself as an open univcrçity.
Air.GROSS : ll rightSir. Theilet us say thatwith respect to open
universities other than Natal, is the justification in your analysis of
legislative enforcement of apartheid in the universities to belained
to any degree by the rcsistance of some of the open u~iiversities to the
policy of separation?
Mr. RAUTEKRAC Th:t may have played arole, Alr. President.
Mr.G~oss:Tsthere any other reason you can tiiink oSir, andesplain
to the Court, why legislative enforcement would be necessary?
Mr, F~UTENBACH Y:es, to further the objectives in connectioii with
development of the various groups.
RlrGROSS :Oyou mean by that. Sir, to say that the open universities
such as Witwatersrand or Cape Town could not be trusted without
legjslatjvcompulsion to cnrry out these policies to which h1ave just
referred, for the reasons which you assert?
hir.RAVTENBAC NHo, there are also other reasons, another being that
the so-caIled open universitieç never at any time in their existwere
inthe fullest sense of the word "open" universities-nlthe classrooms
were open but not the other aspects of university life.
Mr. G~oss: The open university (1 do not insist upon the phrase, this
isthe phrase used in the title of this work and commonly used, 1 thiiik,
by yourself inyour testimony), 1 am using the term merely to identify
certain universities. Would you state again, Siyouihave already done
so, whether it enters into thnecessity for legislative enlorcemerit that
these universitieç, or soof them, could not be entrusted, if left to their
own devices, to carry out the policy of apartheid in their education-is
that a correct statementofone of the reasons for the Iegislative enforce-
ment?
Mr. RAUTENBXC H:r. President, it is very difficult for me toagive
verdict on what would or would not have happened. As 1 Say, it may
have been one of the causes and it probably was one of the causes, 1ut
would not go so far as to Say that it would always be the statcof affairs,
because some of these gentlemen have changed their minds.
Xr. GROSS1 : askyou again, Sir,are there any other causes or reasons
underlying your disagreement with the statement here against enforced
segregation by legislative nieasures? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 405
Mr. RAIJTENBACH 1:think, by and large, in the course omy submis-
sions here, or my testimony, 1have given nnumber ofreasons ofapositive
nature why 1 think that legislative enforcement should have taken place.
Mr. G~oss: You have no others to add, Sir?
Mr. RAIITENBACH :O,not partic~Iar1~~at the present time.
Mr. GRC~S S: ith respect to the normal requirernents of law and order,
enforcement is normally geared to the proposition that some people or
institutions arprone to commit wrongs-is that not so, Sir?
Mr. R.~IJTENB.~CH Th: ere would have bcen no law in the world if the
possihility of transgression had not been there, or the reality of trans-
gression.
Mr. GROSS N:ormally, Sir, if there is a legislative requirement, parti-
cularly one which is attended hy criminal sections, that would mean,
would it not, that there was a fear or suspicion that the universitics in
question rriight, ifleft to their own devices, continue with their traditional
policy of mixed or open education-is that not so, Sir?
Mr. KAIJTENBACH: Mr. President, 1 have bet:ntrained in law at my
university by lawyers who at the Senate Meetings say that whatever law
is passed is a law which regulates something-something must be regu-
lated-and a law regulates.It seems to me that that is a very sensible
way of approaching it.
The PRISSIDENT : ere you aware of any suspicion on the partof the
universities, or the open universities, that if 11:ftto their own devices
they would not support the policy of separateness or apartheid in the
universities
Mr. RAUTERRACHY : es, there is a possibilityI think thcre were
symptoms of that ...
Mr. G~oss: There were what, Sir?
Mr. ~IITENBACH:There were certain symptoms or signs that that
could posçibly have happened.
Mr. Gxciss: Sir, continuing now, with the ncxt statement under the
heading of the Essence of the Case,I read as follows from page 5, and
continuing on page 6:
"The open universities believe that the policy of academic non-
segregation provides the conditions under which the pursuit of truth
may best be furthered and that it hasromoted inter-racialharmony
and understanding."
Pausing there, Sir, do you agee or disagree with that conclusion?
Mr. ~~IJTEYBACH: 1 disagree with that conciusion. 1 will give my
reasons, In the case of the University of Natal, 1attended a graduation
cerernony (1 think the American term for that is a "commencement", a
commencement exercise) which had been boycotted by the Coloured
graduates, aftera goocldes1 of agitation had taken placeThe case in the
University of Natal-the graduates came before the Chancellor or Vice-
.Chancellor in groups and not aIphabetically. Now thaiswhere men were
on the sanie campus, attending segregated classes, but even there this
problem arose. You have the prablems brought :ibout hy Whites, not by
the Co1ourt:dpeople, demanding that the social functions, dances and so
on, should be attended by al1 and, in the University of Natal, a fight
broke out when a Bantu man had approached a young White woman for
a dance and the police had to be brought in, The reason whIthink there
should be enforced segregation at this stage is to prevent that and not
only for the sake of Iaw andorder, but it is an attack, it is an offence to406 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
the dignity of a man who has been invited to a dancby a member of the
Cornmittee ifone of the womenfolk refuses to dance with hirn on the
ground of colour. That is the worst type of disc~imination whiccan be
found.
Mr. GROSS: Sir,to revert to the comment or conclusion of the author-
ities here under discussion, that the policy of academic non-segregation
promotes, among other things, inter-racial harmony and understanding.
Apart from the episode to which you have just referred, Sir, which 1
would agree, of course, is deplorable, do you agree that the mixed or open
system of education promotes inter-racial harmony and understandingin
any respect?
Mr. RAUTENBAC IHrnay do so, but it has often happened that, even
on one campus, a school campus, where there are two language groups
(now 1am referring to the language g~oupsin South Africa of the Whites,
the English and the Afrikaans language groups) on a certain day, when
one coup wants to celebrate this orthat event the pasthistory, ihas
led to conflict. 1hope in due time we will become more mature and over-
corne that, but bringing people together from various backgroundsmay
lead ta conflict, and particularly as soon as the numbers becorne more or
iess equal. When thereisa smaHminority on one side they tend to with-
draw, but when the numbers become larger the possibility of conBici
becomes very great if you have more or less two equal groups, or if the
situation arises where a group begins to thinkit is not getting its full
share and, in the case of people who are of various calours, of various
ethnic relationships, on the same campus at the present time there is such
strong sense of the rights of groups th1really do think it would not be
very advisable, by law or by custorn, to re-intraduce so-called open
university systems, particularlyin those two universities which 1 have
mentioned where there is integration in the classrooms,but outside of
that segregation.
Mr. GROSÇ :irould it be consistent with your analysiç, with which you
have just favoured the Court, that in termç of the report, from which we
are quoting at page 6,that inter-iacial harmony and understanding are
promoted by segregation? Would you go so far as to Say that, Sir?
hlr.RAUTENBAC 1Hwould go 50 far as to Say that if segegation is of
a positive, dynamic nature, which means thaeach of these groups ought
to have an opportunity of realizing their aspirations, then segregation
wjlllead to more harmony because nobody will have a right to be dis-
gruntled or make comparisons.
Mr: GROSÇ: Uoes this answer presuppose or rest on the fundamental
premise of apartheid, asappears, for example, from Prime Minister Ver-
woerd's statements which have been read into the record, that each
group, or community, is to operate in its own sphere, so to speak?
hlr.RAVTEKBAC So to speak. To lead toward nationhood in each
sphere.
hlr.G~oss: Let us talk about South West Africa for a moment, which
is the subject of these proceedings. iihat \vould be the answer you have
just givcn in terrns of the so-called modern or exchange economy? Would
you consider that in that sectorhe Whites and the non-M%ites live in
the same sphere?
Mr. RAUTENRAC They live in the same sphere for eight hourç a day
probably, if they have an eight-bour working day, but for the othe16
hours, they do not live in the same sphere. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
407
Mr. G~oss: 'Lliouldyou Say, Sir, that the degree of realization of
economic well-being, social advancement and moral self-realization, that
these factors are influenced in any way during the eight hours in which
they work?
Mr. RAUTENBACH 1:do not quite get that question.
Mr. GROSS: YOUmade a point, Sir, of the fnct that they live in one
sphere for eight hours and live in another sphere for eight hours.
Mr. RAUTENBACT Hh:ey work in that sphere for eight hours.
Mr. G~oss: They work in that sphere for eight hours?
Mr. RAUTENEACH T:hey do not just sitdom.
Mr. GROSS: They spend their time in that mixed or so-called White
economy? My question to you, Sir,if1may perhaps put it in more direct
terms, with respect to that portion of their lives which is spent in the
service of the Imite economy, shall we Say, what, if any, role should
education play with respect to promoting inter-racial harmony and un-
derstanding, as between the White and non-White in that sector?
Mr. RAUTENBACH E:ducation should always tend towards establishing
harmony between individuals and groups. I think it is part of the edu-
cators' task to dothat.but 1 do not see how you relate that education to
that eight hours, specifically, where a man is busy workinon a machine
or sometiiing of this type.1cannot quite see how you, Mr. Gross, relate
these rnatters.
Mr. G~ctss:Well, suppose that man who is working on a machine has
aspirations to, let us Say, become assistant foreman, just by way of
hypothesi~i.With respect to his understanding of the Whites, in the sense
of better understanding of the White employer, he being non-White,
would education have a role in the establishment of better understanding
between the two groups? This is my question to you, Sir.
xr. RA~JTENBACH Ye:s, 1certainly think that education shouldin any
case teach representatives of bothgroups that al1are human beings with
al1the characteristics of human beings, that the colour of a man's skin
does not make him sub-human or superhuman. That is one thing that
education, in the wider sense, should bring about.
Mr. G~oss:Do you think, Sir, that lesson is taught well by the segrega-
tion, enforced or otherwise, of education according to ethnic groupings?
it is also education accordingto Christian ethics in so far as scripture is
taught in ;il1schools, but with freedorn.of conscience andifthere is one
lesson scripture brings forward-from the thirtl chapter of Genesis-it
is that al1people are created aftetheimage of Cod irrespective of colour
or race or ethnic grouping.
Rlr. CROSS:With regard to the welfare and progress of the non-White
person who is spending eight hours a day on a machine in the so-called
White economy, do you recommend, Sir, as a matter of educational
policy that he be taught in a segregated school and that the White em-
ployer and his children be taught in a segregated school in order that
those two could understand each other better? 1s that what you are
saying to the Court, Sir?
hlr. RAL~TENBA:CY H~s.
Mr. G~oss :In what respect would this segregritionorseparation teach
the White and the non-White, respectively, lessons in harmony and
mutual understanding?
The PRESIDENT:Or produce it? 40s SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Jlr. RAUTEXBA~ H1 beg your pardon.
The PRESIDENT O:rresult in it?
&Ir. GROSS: Or result in it-yes.
The PRESIDENT :each or reçult in it.
hir. RAUTE~;BACH In:the first place, having a school in your own
group, having a school cornmittee, or a school board, from your own
group, using the vernacular, or the mother tongue, as the first language
for teaching and Iearniiig ccrtainly gives a sense of value or dignity to
every group and the individual raised in agroup, where the group itself
is aware of its value and its dignity, will remove that idea of inferiority
when meeting the other. It would not be conducive to a sense of value or
dignity at the prescnt stage to bring them together. Therc are many
reaçons why, in the one case, a better opportunity is provided for self-
fulfilrnent and self-realization, happinessand satisfaction than in an
integrated group.
Blr.GROSÇ: And this reasoning that you have just advanced applies,
does it, Sir, to the situation in which the Iirhite and the non-White serve
the same economy?
RIr.RAUTEBBACH Y:es, that also applies because the residential areas
are apart and the schools are situated in the residential areaç andnot in
the factories.
hlr.G~oss: And not the what, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC'H l':eyare not situated in thefactories, where they
work for eight hours, but . . .
Mr. GHOSS:1 think the record shows that the non-Wliite scliools are
not only segregated but separated from the areas in which thcse people
work.
&Ir.RAUTENBAC:HYou could cal1that geographical scparation.
>Ir.GROSS: Geographical apartheid aswell as educational? Yes, Sir.
With regard to the underlying goal of promoting inter-racial harmony
and understanding, 1 take it that your answer to my question was that
separate instruction on the basis of racial g-roupings gives to each group
a sense of dignity and... 1s that correct, Sir?
Alr.RAUTESBACH T:hat is one of the points.
Jlr.G~oss: And that creation of a sense of dignity on the part of each
group encourages them to understand each other and to harmonize with
each other more effectively? 1sthat what you conclude, Sir?
!\IrRAUTENHAC Hes, because what 1 value in myself for my own
group 1 have got to grant to another to value in his group. You have
separation, too,Ieadin to more peace-you have Korthern lreland and
the Irish Republic. Intyprus, where there was a question of integration,
you got the opposite and even in thevast sub-continent of Indja, separa-
tion is not proving quitc satisfactory. There is still somc trouble with
separation itselfbut integrate now, there, and what will happen?
hlr. GROSS: Your point being, 1 take it, that the problem of inter-
racial strife, preiudice and discord is a rather universal phenomenon. 1s
that correct,-Si;?
hlr.RAUTEXBACH T: at is universal, It is not peculiar to South Africa.
Mr. GROSS: That is right, Sir. \jlith regard to the general problem of
promoting inter-racial harmony and understanding, you have testified
' have you not, Sir, that among the staff of the non-White colleges,
with which you are familiar, the relationship, working contact and asso-
ciation between the Whites and the non-Imites has indeed promoted WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 4'9
mutual uriderstanding? 1s that a correct versioii of your testimony, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENRA CThat is a correct version of my testirnony asregards
the men on this academic level and an ad hoc association. It is an ad hoc
associatioiz for certain purposes and it isan association subject to a
certain development which is envisaged in the future.
Mr. GROSS:When you Say people have a certain lcvel where this
chemistry of CO-operationapplies, at what level would you say a different
relationship exists, or a different consequence results from working
together a.nd studying together?
Mr.RA~JTENBA :CtHthose levels where the ciistoms of the community
play a doininating role and where these tend to arouse ernotions. Now,
it is generally presupposed that university people or the academics, the
egg-heads some cal1them, have corne to a stage where reason plays the
greatest role. In other spheres perhaps emotion is more easily aroused
and where emotion rnay be aroused, tension rnay be aroused and those
tensions are not settled by argument orby debate, but in otherways.
Mr. GROSS : ould you Say, for example, that the graduate afmedical
school or the graduate ofa law school had reached the level that you are
describing, with respect to staff level?
&Ir.R~~IJTEXBA :Y es.
hlr. G~ciss:Therefore, would you explain in what respect then there
would be :idifferenceifany, in the mutual understanding arising from,
Iet us Say, medical students or law students studyingtogether.In what
sense would that problem, or the problems created thereby, be different
from those which arise, or do not arise, in staff associations between
ethnic groups?
Rlr. RAIJTENBACIH :ave to return, Mr. President, to the evidence 1
submitted here before, and 1have to draw attention to the fact that the
experience at the University of Natal in its medical faculty, since the
earIy fifties, has been that medical educatian of the Bantu is best served
by spreading the six years' courseover seven years. Now, if the Bantu
and the others are to be brought together at the University of Natal-
who have the widest experience of this, and immediately, not only the
differentiation-itwill be felt as a discriminatioii if the one group is told,
you have acertain lag in language, remedial instruction, or a certain lag
here or there, you are going to have to study for seven years whereas the
others study for six years. That would immediately create tension,
dissatisfactionand that would not be differentiation, that would be
harmful discrimination.
Mr. G~ciss: Therefore, Sir,in respect of the example I gave you, in
medical school, let us Say, the purpose of separation or segregation is to
protect the non-White from what might be called, the consequences of
his own cultural lag. Would that be a fair description of your testimony?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Ye:s, as long as cultural l:~gis not ascribed to in-
herent factors.
Mr. GRCISS T:Owhat factors?
hlr. RALTTENBAC Inh:rent or innate.
Mr. G~ciss: Would it be pertinent, then, to cnquire whether in your
studies of the university level education, as part of the South West
Africa educational system in this sense, if there have been any non-
White candidates for medical school, leus say, who have not suffered
from this culturallag which you describe?
Mr. RAUTENBAC 1t:ink there must have been at some time or other410 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
medical students at the University of 1fTjtwatersrand-1 know they rvere
picked-Bantu students for final year, one year-1 do not know how
many years they took over the course-but there may have been some
bright ones, some exccptionally bright ones, who took the course in sis
years. One of the examiners informed me that in certain subjects he
found that the Bantu people had difficulty. In other subjects, again, they
were probably in advance of the Europeans. He is not a trained psycholo-
gist, merely in interna1 medicine, but that was his impression. Now, that
second-hand knoii*ledgeis not my own knowledge, but it is possible that
it could have happened, andI think it has happened that aman of Bantu
origin has passed thiscourse in the sameperiod as the other, but Natal's
experience has been, by and large, that there is a handicap, there is a
lag which must be overcome by remedial measures.
NOW,1 know in many countries of the wot-ld-1 visited California-in
California too, in the engineering training, certainremediaI classes are
given to students corning from certain schools, where there is also lag.
Mr. CROSS: With respect to the non-White whom you describe and,
whom, shall 1 Say, for shorthand, is not to be thought of asa cultural
laggard-with respect to such aperson, who isadmittedly and obviously
qualified to perforrn hiç studies in the requisite period and wiahhope
ofsuccess, would you say that hisexclusion from themedical school of
his choice was based upon any consideration other than his race or ethnic
origin?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H1:heard you correctlp, you are asking whether the
exclusion . .
Mr. GROS :SOf such an individual ito be explained on any basis other
than his racial or ethnic classification in a census?
Mr. RAUTEXBA :hH'o,asfar as the doorofthis is concerned, that door
isopened or cloçed according to the act, and that act does base it on
ethnic relations.
Mr. CROSS :o that the short answerto my question, I take it, that
the doctrineor policy of apartheid precludes attendance ofsucha person
upon the basis of his racial or ethnic origin without reference to his
innate capacity or ability. That is a correct paraphrase of your testimony?
Rlr. RAUTENBACH NO:, 1am afraid that is not a correct paraphrase,
because as long as it still stands the Act that, with the permission of
the Minister, aman rnay enter another university,that isnot correct. It
rnay be correct for ggper cent., but correct means completely correct.
Mr. GROSS T:hat is right. Now let us turn to the point you have just
referred to, the rnatteof exception, the Iper cent. exception. First let
me ask you, if I may,when and if an exception is granted, what IS the
role and relationship of the excepted person in the White university
when he achieves the status of residing and studying there? What is his
role and relationshipin the university?
Mr.RAVTENBAC The: White student?
hlr. GKOSS :he non-White who gets an exception, the I per cent.
category, who are granted an exception to which you referred, and goes
to a White university; what is his relationship tothe White students that
comprise the totality ofthat university?
Rlr. RAUTENBAC His:relationship to the White students who com-
prise thetotality ofthe studcnt part of that university is that oa man
who attends the same classes, the çame lectures, works in the same
laboratories, and his physical presence in a geographical sense is that WITNESSES AND EXPERTS qrl
same campus, but he is deprived of quite a number of amenities, quite a
number ofprivilegeswhich form part and parcel of the extra-curricular
contribution towardseducation.
Mr. G~oss: And would you add to that perhaps that he would be a
lonely individual in that environment?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hes, he could be a 1ont:ly individual, he could
develop complexes of the Freudian type.
Mr. GROSS W:ould it be relevant to that possible consequeofethe
situationwe are describing to consider the advantages, humane, practical
and otherwise, of putting that gifted student in a position where he had
like simiIarly gifted or capable students of his oïvn race or religion in the
same environment? Inother words, puttingitvery simply, is there not
a good reason arising from your testimony to have a situation in which
that man does not find himself aIone in a so-caIled White environment?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hes; ifthere had been cornplete integration, then
the situation would have been different, but as long as thereisno
complete integration on any campus, theres something on that campus
which hinclers me.
Mr. GROSSS :tillremaining with the question ofthe certificateof
exemption or exception to which you referred in your testimony as the
I per cent. exception to the apartheid principle .. .
Mr. RA~JTENBAC 1Hd:d not mention I per cent.,Mr. President-1
mentioned it in another connection; there a;itpresent 181Bantu in
the open universities, which is very much more trper cent.of 1~07.
Mr.G~oss: 1,107 Bantu students in South Africa?
Mr. RAIJTENBAC YHes, in South Africa at university level in the
residential universities or institutions.
hlr. G~oss: You referred tgg per cent.-1 don't mean to press you
on that.
Mr. RALJTENBA CH that is in another context.
The PRESIDEKT I:was a figure of speech?
Mr. G~oss: You Say that there are 181 Bantu registered in White
universities at the present time?
Mr.RAUTENBA CHes.
courses,I suppose?figure does not include those taking correspondence
Mr. RAUTENBAC HO:,
Mr. GROSS W:here are thes181,if you will advise the Court, and how
are they distributed arnong the universities?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hh: greatest number is found in Natal.
hlr.G~oss: And how many are there?
Mr. RAUTENBAC There are 80 rnedical stutlent1;think al1 in al1
there must be overIOO.
Mr. G~oss: Now those 80 rnedical students at Natal-woulthey not
be in attendance at a non-White medical school?
hlr.RAUTENBAC H s, they are in attendance after the first year at
the non-White medical school.
MT.G~oss:So that including those80among the number you have just
given would not be intended to signify to the Court that the80 are ,
attending White institutionexceptin the purely forma1 sense that the
university is the over-al1 umbrella?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hh:t isso.
Mr. GROSS: Reverting towhat I think perhaps may lx closer to the412 SOUTH WEST -4FRICA
point, that leaves approximately IOO students who have been granted
exceptions by the Minister, iç that correct?
Air.RAUTESBAC Hes-that is about IOper cent.
hIr. GROSS:Soir- among, roughly speaking, at what universities are
those soo exceptions in residence?
JIr. KAUTEXBAG Thep are chiefiy tobe found in the University of
the \47itwatersrand and the University of Cape Town, which were named
open universities by Alr. Gross.
Jlr. GROSS : O you have any idea as to the relative distributioof
these 100 between the t\ïo ur~iversities of \\'itwatersrandand Cape
Town?
JIr.RAUTEKBACA H :ocument is available here . . .
filGROSÇ: 1 mean off-hand, do you know?
Xr. KAUTESBAC Hh:y are to be found chiefiy in those facultieç and
departments for which the Bantu colleges as yet do not make provision.
1 foond some in music, for instance, anincertain cases for certain types
of B.Sc. Degrees, and in speech therapy-1 noticed that going through
the list; but by and large they are chieAy to be found in those clepart-
ments and faculties where the Bantu colleges aa jret do not make pro-
vision.
3Ir.G~oss: You do not know, 1 take it, the general distribution of
these 100 as between Witwatersrand and Cape 'i'own?
hlr.RAUTEKBAC :Hhe majority are at Witwatersrand.
hlr.G~oss: About roughly how many would you say?
Rlr.KAUTENBAC H hink about 70 per cent. of tliose.
Mr. Grioss: Sothere are about 70, roughiy, at Witwatersrand and 30
nt Cape Town-that represents the total pictiire, doesof,exceptioiis
granted to non-Whites to study at White universities, leaving aside the
medical school of Natal?
Mr. RAUTENBACH 1:could now givc you cxact figures. Out of 145
applications made to the Jlinister as from January1960 up to February
of this year, ouofthe 145, 14 Ivere granted.
The PRESIDEST Twenty-four were what?
Mr. RAUTEXBAC Hwenty-four Bantu were given permission toattend
White universities. The others may be carry-overs, and 1 do not know
how the arrangement was, but that is the exact number-24 applications
out of145 were granted. The majoritp of those which were not granted
were referred to theantu collegeswhich made provision for their study.
Quite a number of them did not qualify for cntrancc any university-
they failed the matriculation examination and the supplementary
matriculation esamination. There is a liçt available of each and every
one ofthese individuals.
hlr.GROSS :sit the practice, so far as you are aware, for the Alinister
togive reasons for the rejection of applications?
hlr. RAUTESBACH X:o, not the practice to give reasons, but there is
generaily a note added,thestudent isreferred to this, that or the other
institution ïvhich does make provision, aiithat 1see a certain reason,
the reason for refusal then being that provision is already made ata
certain place and approach that body or approach that university, bIt
would take it that the bIinister does not give a reason in every case.
;\IrGROSS: \Vould the slip or note to which you refer indicate, for
example, whether a course was available through correspondence at the
University of South Africa? WITNESSES AND ESI'ERTS 4I3
hIr. RACTESB.&CH: Yes, thatis the inference which I must make from
the liat which 1 received.
>Ir.GROSS \rould YOU bc prepared to advise the Court, roughly again,
approximately what proportion of the Applicants dcnied exception by
the 3linisti:r were denied such exception on the ground that they could
pursue the same courses tiirougti correspondence at the University of
South hirica?
Nr. RAUTESHACH I thinkmorc or les5 al1of them, though not South
Africa; quite a nurnber were referred to thc Baritu colleges.
>Ir. G~oss:For correspondence courses?
Air. RAUTEXBA CNHo, not for correspondencr: courses.
&Ir.GROSSI: was referring to correspondence courses.
hIr. RAUTENBACO Hh:,for correçpondence courses; no, a very srnall
number of that list was refcrrcd to Soutli Africa, because the majority
of them had applied for current13.A.and B.Sc. Ilegree courses or educa-
tion courses which were nvnilableat the Bantu universities.
hlr.GROS: You say that a sm:ill number, so far as you are aware, were
denied enti-anceby reason of refcrence tthe possibilities of correspond-
ence courses?
Mr. RAVTENBAC Ir:, 1remember a srnall nurnber of that type.
31r. GROSS : hat would your opinioii be with respect to that as a
reason for denying application for personal studies?
Mr. RAUTENBAC :Hor personal studies?
Alr. GROSS: Yes, not through correspondence, through attendance in
person.
hlr. RAUTENBACH O fcourse 1give preference to attendancein person.
Alr. GROS: Would jrou regard, fro~rithe educationist's point of view,
a correspondence course as equivalent toa course achieved by personal
attendance, inrespect to its acaclemic esceIlencc and so forth?
Alr.RAUTESBACH In:respect of the content, the subject, of the course;
as regards that, I havc bcen ii~formed by members of my stafi that in
many spheres they were surprised at the succcss which could be achieved
through correspondence-languageç, tfie arts, and so on; in fact, the
Dean of the Faculty of Law told me-iii South Africa you first have to
take a depee outside the law faculty before you can enter the law
facult-that they had had a number of students coming from the
University of South Africa who had bcen taught through correçpondence,
and who were up to the grade in the prescribed subjects of Roman Law,
Roman Dutch Law, Latin and the two languages of the country; but 1
think in the cascof thc sciences, of course, you cannot make a mari a
physicist through correspondence-he hns got l:o work in a laboratory
outside the systematic part of thc subject.
&Ir.GKOSS:Can you mrikc hiin a musician by correspondence?
Mr. RAUTENBACH N:O,you coul(1not make hjm a musician otherwise
either if he has not got musiciansliip in him.
Alr. GKOSS:If sornebody came to you, Sir, a.non-White student, and
asked youi. advice with respect to the relative meritsin his personal
case-may we talk about an individual and nota group for a moment-
and asks you for your advice as to whether he would get a better educa-
tion through a correspondence course than by persona1 attendance at a
university-what would your advice to Iiim be, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENHAC 31H:'advice to him ivould be-iit is possible for you
to attend mhat we cal1 a residential University where there is aivoce SOUTH WEST AFRICA
414
teaching, 1u~ouldprefer that of course and everybody woulti preler that
because it is the acquisitioof a skill and not only a theory-you could
not acquire a skill by correspondence.
hlrGROSS :ir, in the book to which 1have referred, A DecaO/ Bantu
Educalion by Muriel Horrell, the statement ismade at page 139 that
d #r@os of the question we are discussing of exceptions requested and
granted that "in 1961, only three Africans were permitted to enrol for a
first time at an open university, two inNatal and one at Witwatersrand".
Are you in a position, Sir, confirm or question those figures as the case
may be?
Nr. RAUTENBACH I:have great doubts as to the correctness of that
figure because that does not seem to coincide with th24, and in the first
two years there were more permissions granted than later on-and for
what subjects were they registered?
Rlr. GKOSS:1 was just asking yau . . .
Mr. RAUTENBACH B:ecause that is misleading, Mr. PresidentIf these
were the very first Bantu students wanting to take, for instance, a Bache-
lor of Music degree,and 1remember now that in the list 1saw there was
anapplicant for music on the university level,ismisleading to Say that
these were the first ever allowas if the others had not been allowed.
Rlr. GROSS:Sir, because perhaps of the form of my question, you do
injustice to this scholarly and careful work.
The PREÇIDENT:That is your description of it, Mr. Gross, it is a docu-
ment that is produced by somebody-it is not çupported by giving it
descriptions. lt might be very scholarly, it migbe very reliable and it
may not be very reliable.
Mr. GROÇS: Sir, it has been attackeas a misleading statement and 1
willwithdraw the characterization of this book, of coursMr. President,
but the point to ~vhich1 should like to draw your attention is that the
statement is-"in 1961,only three Africans were permitted to enrol for
a first time at an open university, twoin Natal and one at ivitwaters-
rand"-1 asked you, Sir, whether you had any information on the basis
ofwhich you could confirm or dispute these figures?
Mr. RAUTENBACM H:FPresident, if that is taken literallis entirely
incorrect.
Mr. G~oss: How many Africans were permitted to enrol for a first
time at an open university inrgbr?
Mr. R~UTENBAC 1do not know. Before 1961 here were 300 and at
present, there are 181and they could not be there-because otherwise
the criminal procedure would have caught up with them by now, which
was rnentioned this morning-they could not be there unless they were
allowed to enter by the Rlinister. Now Sir,subtractingthe number from
Natal, we have more or less agreed that there are IOO.Now it is marvel-
lous, if only three were enrolled in one year and that was a general trend,
that there still could be roo-theris a conflict somewhere between these
figures.
iilrGROÇS: 1 am not vouching for these figures.1 have no persona1
knowledge of them and 1 will not characterize the authenticity of the
work but 1 take it that the answer to my question whether you know how
many Africans were enrolled for the first time 1961, is that yoü do not
know. 1sthat correct Sir?
hfr. RAUTENBACH 1:do know that there were not more than 24.
Mr. GROSÇ: Well, there were not more than 150,ooo for that WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 4I.5
matter Sir. but the question is, howmany were there? Do you know?
&Ir.RAETENBAC WH:ll,Ithink it pretty scholarly to Say in this case
iiot more than 24because 24 were allowad since 1960and I do not think
a11were allowed in one year.
&Ir.G~oss: Well, letme ask you with respect to 1962-maybe there
is wrnethi~ig about 1961that isputting us in an unnecessary atrnosphere.
of dispute.In 1962, according to this same work, only two new African
students were admitted, both to the University of Cape Town, to take
diploma courses in nursing andmusic respectively-the citation for that,
Sir, is the Minister of Bantu Education, Assembly, 2 Rlarch 1962,
Hunsnïd VI, Column 1869. Now Sir, do you know whether or not it is
correct that only two new African students were admittedin 1962under
this procedure?
Rlr.RAUTENBAC That isnot the correct tvayof saying it, MPresi-
dent, "only two new African students" wanting permission to enter the
course for sister tutors were admitted andthey were the only two ap-
plicants and as far as I know they were the first applicantsin South
Africa. As a result of their coming forward eight Bantu women were
trained and recently receivedheir diplornas for tsame course through
the University College ofthe North. But itis misleading, in any casit
js not the full story, to say "only two were adrnitted" because therein
lies the suggestion that so many were refused or so many had not been
admitted before.
&Ir.GROSS :erhaps the use of the word "only" justifies your comment
but that is not rny word but the book's.
hlr.RAUTENBAC Hhe scholarly book?
Mr. G~oss: Uncharacterized. Now in1962, Sir, do you know howmany
new African students were admitted to White universities?
Mr. RAUTENBAC How 1know by and large in the five years24 were
admitted but there are181 and there is a list available hif couId get
hold of that1 could mention every figure.
The PRESIDENT I:would Save us a geat deal of timeifyou could.
hlr.RAUTENBAC1H :ould be pleased to do it, Mr. President.
Mr. G~oss: Now Sir, with respect to the brealcdown of the enrolment
of Africans at universities in various years. page 140 of this work,
which 1 have cited, and the footnote gives the source of the figures, the
enrolment of Africans at universitiesinvarious years starting at1954
wcnt as followsat Cape Town: 1954-26; 1957-29; 1959-39; 1961-18;
isthis correct accordirig to your information?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Yes, iis correct but ..
Mr. G~oss: Do you question these figures or do you wish to explain
them?
&Ir.RAUTENBAC H:ese figures have to be explained. 1 takitthat
the majority of those mentioned under 1961 were those who, under the
Act, could complete their trainingThey were notnewcomers but they
had been in those universities inïgjg and you cannot get a degree in
South Africa unless you have done at least more than half of your work
in the same universityand under the Act, thcse people were allowed to
carry on, so that amongst those18, some are carry-overs from previous
years.
Mr.GROSST : hank you for the explanation. In other words, thisans
enrolment figure, as set forth here, regardless of the origin or time of the
original enrolment. I'ou are quite right, Sir, there. How with regard to416 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
!Aritwatersrand on a table similarly acrosç the l1954 the enrolment
of Africans in Witwatersrand University was 72; 1957-59; 1959-74;
1961-38. Would you esplain to the Court, Sir, whether or not the38
figure for1961 would, if you know, include persons who had received
exceptions?
Mr. KAUTENRAC Yes, 1rernember from that list1 saw, there were
persons who had received exceptions.
hlrGROSS :3utyou do not know, Sir, how many of that38 would be
in that catcgory?
Mr. RAUTENI~AC 1could bring it along.1 am rather tired andmy
memory does not function as well as usual and the result is thasome is
strain to bring forward the exact figurand al1 these details bu1 am
prepared to accept those figures there, quite prepared.
31rCROSS: 1think, Sir, that unless you wish to make any further com-
ment on the question, 1 have no further questions with ~egard to the
exceptions.\irouldpou liketo add anything?
Mr.KAUTENRA :lHes, there iavery intererting point in the figures
you have mentioned and that isthe figures which went down beforr959
and therc is an explanation for that too.
Mr.G~oss: Would you give that explanation?
&Ir.RAUTENHAC Th:e Bantu students were encouraged, after the
establishment of themedical faculty at Natal, by the authorities of the
University of Witwatersrand, to go and çtudy iti Nata1.know that for
a fact because the Principal of that University waç my next-door
neighbour and 1 know for a fact that he thought that the new policy
shouldbe to encourage the Bantu students to go and make useof this
new faculty-that is the reason why they came down before 1959 and
then went up again.
Mr.GROSS: 1had not meant to mislead you by reading these figures at
you but, the facts that at \Vitwatersrand,1aread before, the figure in
1957 was jg and in1959 the number was 74.
hlrRAUTENBAC 1H:ould like to give comment on thatInthe course
of 19.57and 1958, and that is where the students come into the picture,
and that is whyIused the word "agitation"this morning, week by week
meetings were held and the clarion call went out that now is the time to
enrol at the University of Witwatersrand because under this neuTlegisla-
tion you won't be able to-oncyou are in you can complete your course.
That is one of the rcasoif youIook at al1of thewith the exception of
Natal, thereas a tendency towards asteep rise 1959 and inyfollowing
comment will be-as was expected .that aft1959 these numbers u~ould
go down and the rcsult would be that we had this increase in numbers as
from 1962 onwards at the Bantu colleges, goiiig beyond what me had
before, so thaty 1965there were1,10 7t the colleges and theuniver-
sities, whereas i1939 there had been about 660, almost doubling the
numbers-that is somewhat more of the picture.
Mr. G~oss: The rush, if1 may call it that, Sir, to enrol1-93 and
1958,indicated a desire, a strong desire perhaps, on the part of these
persons to achieve that education at thosc institutions?
fiZrRAUTENBAC Hh:t must have been one motivation at least.
Mr. Gnoss: Do you regard that, Sir, as unworthy in any respect?
hlr.RAUTENHAC 80,:it iâ very wortliy aspiration.
Mr. GROSS: In other words, the rush, if 1 may again cal1 it that to
enrol, was undoubtedly to be explained, was it not, Sir, by the fact that WITNESÇES AND EXPERTS 417
if the legislation were pasçed there would be criminal penalties if they
applied to enrol and were permitted to?
hlr. RAUTENBACH 1:do not think any one of them knew about future
possiblecriminal penalties1 did not know about it either this morning.
Mr. GROSS: 1would like to refer to one particular conclusion reached
in the reportThe Open Universi tiSesuthAfrica because,by coinci-
dence or otherwise, it expresses a judgrnent concerning the matter to
which you testified and uses the same phrase you used1refer to page7
of The Open Universi tiSosuthAfràca and 1read the following:
"The open universities would also denyhe validityof any argu-
ment for cornpulçory university apartheid which is based upon the
adage that 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'No government
would be justified in using its control over the national pursa as
Iever iorsuch a purpose. Al1sections of the population contribute to
the national income and also to university endowments."
1 stop there 1 take it, from your previous testimony, tyou do, on
the other hand, believe that "he who pays the piper calls the tune". 1s
that correct, Sir? Did you testify to that?
Mr. RAUTENBACH I: a certain contextyes,Iiut not as one universal,
unqualifiecl truth.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, in the context and sense in whicyou intended
your testimony to be taken by the Court,or otherwise, would you now
expressyour agreement or disagreement with the conclusion1have read
from the report?Do you wish me to read it sentence by sentence, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es, please.
Mr. GROSS:The first sentence is:
"The open universities would also deny the validity of any argu-
ment for compulsory university apartheid which is based upon the
adage 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'."
Pausing there, Sir, do you agree or disagree with the validity of the argu-
ment that "he who pays the piper calls the tune"?
Mr. RAUTENBAC:H 1 disagree with the tenoof the argument.
hlr. GROSSN : ow,Sir, would you explain to the Court the basis of your
disagreement ?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es, and1 will take thivery country in which we
are at tht: present time-the Netherlands-as an example. In the
Netherlandç here there are three Imperial or State universiti(Rijks-
Universiteifen-literallImperial University or State University).The
legislation pertaining to these universities actually prescribes the date on
which univerçities should open, prescribes theral tendency of courses
ta be give~i, and here we have a case, within a certain context, of "he
who pays the piper calls the tune". The sarne holds for the State univer-
sities of the United States of Arnerica.
Blr. G~oss: Now we are speaking, arewe not, Sir, about the argument
of the piper's tune-argument, if 1 may cal1 it that-in respect of the
enforced introductioninto the open universities of the system of apart-
heid? This is what we aretalkingabout, is it not, Sir?
Mr. RAOTENBAC Hes, but it abo has a wider context because, in
relation to the White universities-tso-calledopen universities-there
are certain matters prescribed by law by the Government as to the
minimum period of attendance for a certain degiAe,tc. In that respect,41~ SOUTH WEST AFRlC.4
the Çtate contributing towards universitiehas acertain Say on behalf of
society at large and on behalf of the taspayer. The autonomy of the
university and the freedorn oftheuniversity hasnever been absoluta. It
isa relative concept.
hlrGROSS Sir, in elaboration of that1would call to your attention
the explanatory considerations in thissame report, with which you are
farniliar, apage 32, in which this joint conference concluded on this
point as follows, andI will ask whether you agree or disagreeSir:
"It might be argued by some theorists that the Government'ç
claim to interfere in academic rnatters can be be based upon tlîe
large sums of money which it pays to universities in grants and loans
and that he who pays the piper has the right to call the tune."
Now, with that introductory comment they go on to Say:
"Happily, no South African Government has by its conduct
hitherto given countenance to this proposition."
Do you accept that as a correct statement of fact? This waç i1957 , ir.
hlr.RAUTEKBAC H's. 1have no reason at this moment to doubt the
correctness of that statement.
Rlr.G~oss: Xow, they go on to Say, Sir, or to argue, if you wish to
cal1it that :
"If the time were to came when the piper theme had to be taken
seriously we might perhaps ask who really does pay the piper.1sit
the Government or the taxpayer? And are al1 the taxes paid by
Whites?"
1will pause there, Sir, and ask you, if you will commentisit true that
al1taxpayers are White, or not?
Mr. RAUTENBAC It is evidently true that al1 taxpayers are not
White.
Mr. GROSS: Now, Sir, with respect to those taxpayers who pay the
piper,what role, if any,do they have in the selection of the Government
which decrees their university apartheid system?
Mr. RAUTËNBACH NO, they have no say. The Black people have no
votes for the members of Parliament. 1 think that is well known.
Mr. GROÇS: NOWS , irthe decisionas towhether or notthe university
system should be placed in the apartheid framework was based, waç it
not, Sir, on Government policy without referendum?
hlr.RIUTENBAC Hes, it was based on Government policy without
specific referendum,\vithout submitting it tothe electorateatthat rno-
ment. Itis also based on custom whicli was much older than that Govern-
ment.
hlr. G~oss:LVhat isthe custom, Sir?
hlr. F~AUTEKBACT Hh:e custom is to live separately.
Mr. G~oss: In connection with the custom which you have described,
the universitystudy which Thave in rnyhand, and I refer to page6,says
as follows with regard to custom:
"The open universities deny the validity of the argument that
they should close their doors to non-White students on the ground
that in being open they are ignoring an established South Afncan
tradition. Apartheid is not the only relevant established tradition in
South Africa. The tradition fallowed by the open universities has WlTNESSES AXD EXPERT!] 4I9
deep roots in the history of the Cape Colonand is no less South
African for the fact that it acwiU~sthe universality of Christen-
dom."
Now, if1 may go back over that, as you wish me to, sentence by sen-
tence. The statement, which is a connected thought, 1 believe, opens
with the sentence that "the open universitieçieny the validity of the
argument that they should close theirdoors to non-White students on
the ground that in being open they are ignoriiig an established South
African tradition".In the context of your reference to the "custom",
would you also substitute the mord "traditionSir? You take those as
synonymous, do you, Sir?
Mr. RALTTENBA :Y es.
Mr. GROSSM : 1itrespect to your comment with regard to the estab-
lished custom or tradition1 take it you disagree with this statement
then?
Mr. RAUTENBAC 1H:isagree with that anI will givmy reason for
that.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, 1 was going to suggest that you do so if you wish to.
Mr. RAUTENBAC WHell, the Native College of Fort Hare, whibe-
came the :Bantu College, was established in that very Province, Cape
Proviiice, and u7asestablished-opened itsdoors-in 1916. So that in
that Province, to which these gentlemen refer, where the old Cape liberal
tradition heId sway, the first university institution closing its doors to
Whites-the Native College of Fort Hare-was established. So that
seems to conflict with the historicallity.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, were not the open universities also located in the area
you are referring to?
Mr. RAUTENBAC HO:,only one of them: Cape Town. The Witwaters-
rand University is up north, close to my University. We ar40 miles
frorn each other.
Mr. GROSS: Could you indicate to the Court if you know the compar-
ative enrolment figures for Fort Harersus Cape Town University?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hes. Fort Hare's enrolment i1959was 481, some-
thing like that, and Cape Town in1959 must have had about 5,000-
4.500.
Mr. GROSS : ith respect to the question of the tradition or custorn to
which you and the universities, through the medium of this report, have
referred :
"The tradition foIlowed bythe open univrirsities has deep roots in
the history of the Cape Colonand is no less South African for the
fact that it accords with the universality of Christendom."
Taking t:he first part of that sentence,1 may, Sir, "the tradition
followed bv the open universities has deep roots in the history of the
Cape Coloiiy". Would you agree or disagree with that asa factually
correct historic statement?
Mr. RAUTENRAC 1Hdisagree with that. Itishistoryas written by
these gentlemen. There is a theory in South Afofcthe old Cape liberal
standpoint. Now there is some substance in that, but substance does
not lie where these university people think it lies but in the relation to the
Coloured people. You see, we distinguish between the Cape Coloured
people and the Bantu. There is a distinction and the old Cape liberal
tradition m7aschiefly as regards the Coloured people and there waa420 SOUTH N'EST AFRICA
tradition of that kind, but not widely held outside Cape Town itself.
Mr. G~oss: Sir, firqbosof that point of the Coloured as distinguished
from other members of the population, according to the book byrrell, .
cited previously...
Mr. RAUTBNBAC THh:t is the scholarly one?
Mr. GKOSSA : Decade 01 Ba~tu Education it is called. It states ai
page 132,tliat "of the 489stuclentsu-thiis 1959-"of the 489 students
only 38 per cent. were of Khosa or Fingo origin".
Mr. RAUTENHA :KHhosa, yes.
Mr. G~oss: 1s that the language whichis accompanied by the click,
Sir?
hlr.RAUTENBAC AHnumber of clicks. The Bushman language consists
of clicks entirely.
Mr. GROÇÇ: "Thirty-eight per cent. were of Khosa, or Fingo, origin,
34 per cent. came from other African groups14 per cent. were Coloured
and 14 percent. were Indian." Now, Sir,with respect to that distribution
of ethnic groups at that Colleat thattime, hvouldyou regard this as an
advantage or a disadvantage from the point ofview of the educational
system?
Air. RAUTENBAC H vould not consider this ithe best interesisof
the groups and it was not unknown that Fort Hare had had various con-
flicts on its campus from time to time. prior1959.
Mr. GROSS :nd yet, Sir, it is true, is it not, wasapreciselythis
distribution of ethnic groupsif 1 maycal1 theni that, thajoined in a
resolution of October1959 o which 1have rcferrcd and read into the
record?
hfr.RAUTENBAC 1 b:g your pardon?
hlr.GROSSI: sas, Sir, is it na factthat it is precisely this grofp
students, distributed as they lvcre, rvho joined together in the adoption
of the resolution of October959 ,rom which 1 have previously quoted?
AIr.RAUTES~~A :CYes.One can very weIi understand that.
hlr.GROSS :f70uldyou please elaborate your opinion concerning the
reason for their having crossed ethnic lines, if one may put it that way,
in the resolution?
RfrRAUTBNRAC WHeil, knowing students as I do and student nature
as 1 do, after al1 these years of association with th1rwould, in the
first place, associate their activitieswithpropensity towards holding
meetings and so on and passing resolutions. And thwas adelicate stage
in the wholematter. This was a delicate stage. 1 would have beendis-
appointed, to tell you the truth, if they had not done so. There was also
the loyalty to their colleagues at Fort Hare. Now, over against that, there
are over 1,000 Indian stude~its in the new Indiaii College at Durban,
which is something very different from the slig14 per cent. there and
the srnall riumber in the open universities. One thousand-thiswhere
the proof of the pudding lies.
&Ir.G~oss: Sir, do you have anjr bais for the factual naturor any
other kind ontlie basis of which you could testify thst the students who
adopted this resolution in 1959did not mean esactly what they said?
hlr.KAUTENBAC NHO, Icannot. 1 can just Say that in the further
course of eventso many Indian and Coloured people and Bantu came
forward to enlist as studentsthe other colleges that this seerns to have
had no effect onthe growth ofuniversity education for these various
groups. WITNESSES A'JD EXPERTS 421
Mr. G~oss: But they were prohibited by law from doing otherwise,
were they not?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hhey were prohibited by law, but the fact that the
increase is ~ooper cent. over fiveyears whereas previous to 1959 it had
only been 60 per cent.-that shows greater popularity of these colleges
than any other institutionsI have been to.
[Public heuring of7 October19651
Rlr.GRQSS :r. Rautenbach, at the proceedings yesterday, 6 October,
in the verbatim record at pages 405-406, su+ra, in response to a certain
question addreçsed by me to you, Sir, on page 405, you responded as
follows,anlong other things. In the firsparagraph you said:
"The reason why 1 think there should be enforced segregation at
this stageiç to prcvent that and not only for the sake of law and
order, but itisan attack, it is offence to the dignity of a man who
has ken invited to a dance .. ."
Kow, that referred ta the incident which you had described previously.
Then, later, toward the middle of the page, again referring to the subject
of inter-racial harmony and understanding in terms of whether or not
there is segregation of universities, you said, again among other things
(toward the middIe of p. 406) :
"1 hope . . . we will becorne more mature and overcome that, but
bringing people together from various ba.ckgrounds may Iead to
conflict, and particularly as soon as the numbers become more or
less equal. [And you continued] When there is a small minority on
one side they tend to withdraw, but ivhen the numbers become larger
the possibility of conflict becomes vegreat ifyou have more or less
two equal groups, or if the situation aiises whereagroup begins to
think it is not getting its full share indthe case of people who are
of various colours, of various ethnic relationships, on the çame
campus at the preçent time there is such strong sense of the rights
of groups that 1 reallydo think it would not be very advisable, by
Iaw 01by custom, to re-introduce so-called open universjty systems,
particularlyin these two universities which1 have mentioned where
there is integration in the claççrooms, but outside of that segrega-
tion."
1s that, Sir, your testimony as reflected in the verbatim and do you
accept it as correctly stated there?
Mr. RA~JTENBAC THat is correct,Mr. Presicient.
Mr. GROSS: Now, Sir, may 1 açk you if you would be good enough to
tell the Court what, if any, practical persona1 experience you yourself
havehad in the administration ofan open university?
Mr. RAUTEXRACH 1 :have had no experience, Mr. President, in the
administration of an open university where there were people of more
than one colour. May 1esplain that pnor to the Act of 1959 al1universi-
tieswere open universities,my university was an open university too, but
the University Council decided who could or sliould not enter and thal
is why I have experience of the administrationof an openuniversity, but
not of an open university where people of more than one colour are on
the campus.
Mr. G~oss: The fact is then, Sir, that ÿour own experience in the SOUTH WEST AFRICA
422
education field, that is, from the practical point of view of your own
participation in the administration or teachinina university, has been
confined, has it not, to the University of Pretoria which hasbeen all-
Ihite and the University College of the North which has been al1non-
White? 1s that correct, Sir?
hlr. RAUTENBAC YHe:.hly closest and most direct contact has been
of such a nature asdescribed by Mr. Gross.
Mr. GROSS : ow, Sir, upon what would your cipinion as, for example,
reflected in the testimony which 1 have just read be based? What ex-
perience would your judgment be based upon?
hlr. RAUTENUAC MHy:judgment is baçed upon the experience which
was shared by the university principals who were in charge of open
universities where people of more than one colour mere present on the
campus. 1was in contact, from timetotime, in the usual course of events
twice per year, with Dr.E. G.Malherbe, the Principal and Vice-Chancel-
lor of the University of Natal because the Committee of Principals has
a meeting twice per annum. Outside of Ourordinary meetings and agenda
we mingle sociaily and discuss matterand the one man cornplains about
his problems, and so on. Also a great friend of mine was the late Dr.
Raikes wlio was, for more tlia20 years, Principal and Vice-Chancellor
of the University of Witwatersrand. Our Universities are 40 miles apart
which, in South Africa, is considerea very short distance and we were
in contact with each other at a monthly meeting of certain bodies to
which we belonged and often compared notes; he often discussed these
matters with me. Dr. Kaikes was an Oxford man-a don-who had corne
to South Africa in 1928 and was Principal of the University of Wit-
watersrand for 20 years.
Thirdly, my youngest son was a student at the University of Wit-
watersrand, an open university. He was a student of engineering and,as
happens in families, the experiences of the week and other things are
brought forward. Then 1 read whatever 1 could laymy hands upon, if 1
could find the time, in connection with this whole matterI have had a
Iong interest in this matter because the University of whi1ham Princi-
pal, as long ago as 1934 approached the Government by petition to
rovide more adequate facilities and more facilities for the training of
gantu rtudents. That was as long ago as 1934 1 knew about that and 1
was interested in a step fonvard, or a leap forward, which would prove
satisfactory.
Furthcrrnore, as member of the Council of the University of South
Africa, that University had been approached by a new institution which
was in the course of being established in Basutoland and Basutoland was
one of the Protectorates under the British Crown. This waç the Pope
Pius College. 1was a member of the Executive Committee of the Univer-
sity of South Africa anda member of a sub-comrnittee dealing with this
whole matter of establishing a special relation between this contemplated
Bantu college and the University itsel1.met together with the Principal
of the University of South Africa and other people I met the delegates
with them and, as 1Say, 1 had this interest my neighbours, since1wa~
born in close proxirnittowhat was then known as a Native Reserve and
my people had been dealing with the Bantu for over IOO years UP
North, I was always interested in the developrnent of the Bantu.
hlr. G~oss: l'hank you,.Sir. Incidentally, with respect to your refer-
ence-is itcalled the Universityof Basutoland?424 SOUTH WEST APRICA
Mr. RAUTENBACT Hh:ere were no Coloured rnembers on the School
Board.
Mr. GROSS:Was that a matter of policy, Sir?
hlr. RAUTENBACY He:s1 think it was a matter of policy. 1 was under
that impression.
Mr. GROSSW : ith regard to the question of the attitude of the two
officialsthat you have mentioned, do you recall, Sir, whether or not in
your discussions with them they indicatedoint ofview with respect to
enforced segregatio?
Mr.RAVTENBACY He:s.
Mr.GROSS:What was their opinion, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hh:ave already quoted Dr. E. G.Malherbe, and his
most recent publication on this subjewas round about October 1964
in one of the magazines devoted to the study of race relations. And he
wrote that he is in favour of an openuniversity subject to certain limita-
tions and in this'case the limitation is that there should be separate
classes within the precincts of that university for the various groups for
reasons which he has given and gave-I am not going to mention them
now. The late Dr. Raikes and 1 visited Natal University on the occasion
of its proclaimed date for becoming a separate full-fledgeduniversity and
that was inthe South African autumn of 1948.
hlr.G~oss: IVould itbe accurate to say, Sir, that Dr. Malherbe is
opposed-has expressed his opposition-to enforced segregation of
universities?
hIr. RAVTENBACY He:s, hc has continually opposed that, but that is
only half the story.
&Ir.G~oss: Well, Sir, you mean that he is only half opposed to it? 1
am not sure 1understand your qualification.
Mr.RAVTENBACH He: is opposed to compulsory segregation but, in
his latest article he said "1 can find no objection in principle against the
establishment of ethnic colleges".
Mr. GROSS 1:see, Sir. In addition to the open or mixed colleges?
Alr.RAUTENBACH He:is a qualified opponent.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. Kow with respect to the other gentleman you
mentioned, the other offici...
Mr. RAUTENBA CHr. Raikes.
hir. GHOSSS :ir,on the basis of your discussions with him, would you
express to the Court, to the best of your recollection, his views on the
subject of openverstrclosed universities?
andrhe jnvited me to rcturnwjthehim by motorcar-itiis a distance ofatal
about 350 miles. Hewas discussing various matters.
On the occasion of these celebratiomin Natal the then Minister of
Education, Arts and Science, the late Dr. Stals, announced that the
Government had decided to establish a separate medical faculty in the
University of Natal for the training of medics, non-White medics. He
had announced that, and, as a result of that, was a subject of dis-
cussion onthepart ofDr.Rajkes becausehisiiniversithad been training
Bantu and Indian and Colouredstudents. In the course of this discussion
he said: LVell,1 am keen now to advise al1newcomerto my university
to go to Natal because I think it is a right thing that has been done.
He also told me this, which 1 found rather interesting. There are
certain subjects in which Bantu students do exceptionally well and WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 425
there are also certain subjects in which thep do ~iotdo so weI1;thave
difficulty. He mentioned one subject and please do not ask me why it
should be so-it is just whathe said-and thatis the subject in the third
year of medical çtudy, pathology; it is also called morbid anatomy.He
çaid that the experience at the University of Witwatersrand had been
that this was a very difficult subject ior Bantu students, whereas the
anatomy, ;is such, was a subject in which they did very well.
Mr. GROSS: Sir,I would like to be as brief as possible both inrn
question and in your response, if you will, Siconsistent with yourfu8
explanations. Did Dr. Raikes express an opinion with regard to the en-
forced çegregation ordid he not, Sir?
Mr. RAGTENBACN HO: ,onthat dayhe did not express an opinion.
Mr. GROSS :Oyou do not know what his views were?
hIr.RAUTEXBAC NH:,Sir.
&Ir.GROSS : OW,1should like to turnto the statement issuedby the
Executive of Convocation of the University of Witwatersrandin 19.5.5.,
Now, Sir, are you familiar with the fact (or is it a fact of which you
are aware, Sir) that the Executive of Convocation of the Universityof
Witwatersrand gave testimony to the Holloaay Commission?
Mr. RAUTËNBACH Ye:s, to the Holloway Commission and to the
Government Commjssion appointed in August 1957.
Mr. GROSS: Now, Sir, with respect tothe evidence before the Holioway
Commission. The following statement is derived from the memorandum
of evidence of the Convocation at page 2.1 should like to read it and
ask a few questions of you with regard to it. It is two sentences:
"It is our firm belief that segregation in the universities is most
undesirable for many reasons . .The fact thatthe juxtapositionof
European aiid non-European studcnts has.occurred in our university
withoixt friction and urithout the disturbanceof racial peace has
provided a most valuable example of inter-racial CO-operation under
the most favourable conditions."
NOW, Sir, withrespect ta that evidence,would you have any know-
ledge, on the basis of your experience, on the basis of which you would
agee or disagree with the accuracy of that evidence?
&Ir.RAUTENBAC 1 have not theknowledge eitherto agree odisagree
in this paiticular instance, that is first-rate kiiowledge from personal
experience in this particular case,
Mr. GRQSS:With respect to the history of the racial relationships
which the Convocation statement sets forth at the University of Wit-
watersrand, have you in any discussions witli other officials of the
university heen advised of a different poinofview with respect tothis
evidence?
Flr.RAUTENBACH NO:.1 only heard students discussing this and not
discussing this with me, but discussing it amongst themselves-students
of the University of Witwatersrand. That is Madam Rumour, the lying
jade.
Mr.GROÇS:NOWS ,irthe Holloway Commission, was Ithink entitled:
The Holloway Commission on University Apartheid. Waç that the title? '
hir. RAWTENBAC k'e:, Sir, there were two Holloway Commission5.
This mas tlieCommission round about 1954 ,onjisting oDr. Holloway,
Dr. Wilcox, and a third member.
Mr.GROSSY :es,Sir, unless you wish to put his naminthe record iis
not necessary for my question, Sir.426 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. RAUTENBACY H:s, we just want to be ad idem on which Com-
mission. There was also another Holloway Commission.
hlr.GROSS: This is the one, Sir1954-195 X5.w, in 1954 the Senate
of the University of Cape Town in its evidence to the Holloway Com-
mission was quoted in the newspaper Cape Argus of 23 November 1954
as stating as foliows:
"In a country with racial problerns it is obvious thatthe more the
groups know of and understand each other the better chance isthere
of amicable settlement of differences and of CO-operationand trust."
Pausing there,I take it you would agree with that statement asmatter
of principle, would you notSir?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Y:es, one has tu gct understanding.
Mr. GROS SThat is right, Sir. The evidence goes on as foliows:
"Such kno~vledge and understanding ündoubtedly accrue from
the daily academic contacts in open universities such as Witwaters-
rand or Cape Town."
Pausing there, Sir, on the basis of your own espcrience, would you have
a reason to disagree with that conclusion?
hlr. R~UTEKBACH Y:es,1have a sound reason to disagree with that
conclusion.
hlr. G~oss: That you do not believe, Sir, do not agree, that "such
knowledge and understanding accrue from daily academic contacts";
youdisagree with that,Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC N O, 1 think it has been over-estimated-tsignifi-
cance of contact on a university campus. There is something artificial
even about that and that is somewhat removed from everyday life. 1
think it has been over-emphasized that that forin of contact is the ideai
form of contact. There are other forms of contact which are much more
valuable. 1would, then, Say 1 would accept that with qualifications. 1
disagree with it as an absolute truth.
Mr. GROSS :he evidence goes on as follows-thistime it is only one
sentence, although a lengthy one:
"Experience in other parts of the world, as also the present
attitude of the non-European students at Fo~t Hare, have shown
that to separate young hurnan beings into two camps,inwhich one
group believes it is being discriminated against , as against the other,
isto foster discord and to breed suspicion and hatred to such an
estent as to invalidate any claim to a satisfactory state of practi-
cability."
Specifically with reference to the evideIchave just quoted concerning
the present attitudeofthe non-Europeanstudents at Fort Hare (thi çf
course in November 1954 ,ou will understand, Sir), did you havany
experience on the basis of which you can express agreement or dis-
agreement with that conclusion?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Yes, Sir, 1 have some experience on the basis of
which I can entirely disagree with that conclusion, very recent and very
apposite, and that is the approach which was initiated by the Students'
Representative Council of the Uantu ColIege of the North to establish
contact with the students of so-calledhite universities, and with the
stiidentsofmy oim university. The Students' Representative Council of
my university decided to meet them on an ahoc basis, face to face. The
A.S.B. (these words standing for Afrikaanse Studente Bond, meaning WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 427
Afrikaans Students Association) published a declaration of policy about
two years ago expressing the wish to have contact as between the
Representative Council and Council and not contactas they said at that
time, where one mansits in one room and uses a telephone and the other
in the other room replies, but where they sit together around thsame
table deallng with the same subjects.
Now, 1t.hink that proves that, under this new system,or new organiza-
tion, which has eventuated spontaneously on both sides, instead of
hatred arising there is a yearning or a desire to meet and to discuss.
Mr. G~oss: Thank you, Sir. Now, with respect to the evidence to which
I have referred, that is to Sayrelating to the experience at Fort Hare-the
attitude of the non-European students atFort Hare to which this evi-
dence of the University Senate referred-u~ouldyou, Sir,on the basisof
your own expert opinion, explain whether or not you consider that this
analysis of the attitude of the non-European students at FoHare isor
is not confirmed by the resolution adopted in 1959by the studentsat
Fort Hare to which we referred yesterday,Sir?
Mr. RAIJTENBACIH f1 understand you correctly-1 am not sure if 1
do follow your question-1 think tlie events subsequent to that declara-
tion which 1have just mentioned tend to do the very opposite and that
is to confirm it was a case of mistaken diagnosis.
Mr. GROSS: This resolutionSir,in1959y ,ou will recal(1will be very
brief about this, just to refresh your recollection, Sir), was a resolution
adopted by the students at Fort Hare strongly condemning and express-
ing opposition to the segregation or apartheid system. That is the resolu-
tion to which1 am referring.My question was, on the bais of youown
understancling and appreciation of this subject, ~vhetheryou regard that
resolution as confirming or otherwise the analysis presented to the
Rolloway Commission in 1954.
Mr. RAUTEKBAC NH: ,these are in line with each other.
hlr.GROSS: Yes. Now, Sir . . .
Mr. RAIJTENBAC H :t realityis another question, you see. "Con-
firrning" means two things in this case.
MT.Gnoss: Yes,Sir, butthey are in line with each other.
Mr. RAUTENBACH Th:ey are in line witeach other.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. Now then, in1954 at the time these studies were
under way, Dr. T. D.Davie, who was then Principal of the University of
Cape Town-1 presume you knew him, Sir ...
Mr.RAUTENBAC H:e were very good friends.
Mr. G~oss: He, in an address on IMay 1954 , hichisset forth in a
publicatiori entitled The Idea ofUniversitystated as follows:
"In the open universities, the great majority, though by no rneans
all, of the non-European students become keen on CO-operationwith
the Eiiropeans for the general good of both racesThe tendency in
the segregated (non-European) institutions towards "anti-White"
and other subversive activities and organjzations is real and be-
corning steadiIy more obvious."
Now, sirice those are two fairly long sentencemay I break itdown
and read the first sentence:
"ln the open universities, the great majority, thby no rneans
all, of the non-European students become keen onCO-operationwith
the Eiiropeans for the general good of both races."428 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
On the bais of your experience, Sir, would yoii express agreement or
disagreement with that conclusion?
Rlr.RAUTENBAC 1doubt that conclusion. 1doubt it even on thevery
words used, because 1 do not know whether he took a poli or an opinion
poil on this matter: it is his opinion over and against mine. He was an
honest man, there is no dishonesty about him,I knew him very weU,but
every man looks at the matter through,takes on the colour ofthe glasses
he wears.
hlr.GROSS : es, Sir. Now,I should like to turn, 1fmay, to just one
more expression of view, this tirne on the part of students. 1 refer ao
very brief excerpt from aresolution adopted by the Students' Represen-
tative Council of the University of Cape Town, o23 February 1gj3 and
this is one sentence which reads as follows:
"As a highly successful experiment in race relations, academic
non-segregation has stood the test of pears and has led to nothing
but a betterracial understanding, tolerance and harmony."
Now, Sir, again 1 should Iike toask you, on the basis of your persona1
experience, would you express agreement or disagreement with this
excerpt from the resolution of the Students' Representative Council of
the University of Cape Town?
Mr. RAUTENHACH If: 1knew what is meant by "persona1 esperi-
ence" ...
Mr, G~oss: Not necessarily "personal" if you wish-any experience,
Sir.
Mr. RAUTENBAC IfH:y that js meant what 1 saw with my own eyes,
then 1 must return to what 1saw in Natal, the information which 1 got
of the University of Natal, that it had this trouble, whic1 mentioned
yesterday, at the dance, and the other trouble about the graduation
ceremony, the commencement exercises. And, of course, angrbody who
readsliteratureand magazines from other countries knows what has been
happening in the United States of America, where people have been
coming together: it has often led to bloodshed. But that is their business
and 1wish to rcfer to my oh7ncountry and my own experience then, in
this sense of hearing man who has had a lot of experience, the head of
a university, in favour of the open university, asaying thatthere were
points of conflict, there were difficulties, there wcre problemIdoubt
whether the integrated university solves as many problems as it creates
in the long run,in South Africa as itisat the present time. As 1 Say,1
do not wish torefer to other countries but the bringing together of people
is an experience, a comman experienceof Ourgeneration, and the bringing
together of people, instead of waiting for better understanding, has led
to tension and confiict.
Mr. GROSSS :O,Sir, on the basis of that analysis you do, 1 take it,
disagree with this resolution.
Mr. RAUTENRACH Y es, Sir-1 question it.
hlr.GROSS l'ou do not question its existenceI take it, Sir?
Mr.RAUTEKBAC H :,its existence on paper, no, but of course its real
existence.
hIrGROSS: Yes, Sir. Xow,I would like to turn to your own testimony,
and 1 refer to that of4 October, at page 340, sufiru.You testified, Sir,
according to page 340 of this verbatim record, in the forminter aliaof
a quotation from A. M. Carr-Saunders. The quotation from which you WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 4z9
read an escerpt appears on page 12of what you describe as a brochure
entitledSlafing African UnivevsiliesIt is in the transcript as "Starting"
-that is an error,isit not, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC YHe, it should be "Staffing".
Mr. G~ciss:So that we are refemng to the document Stafing Africata
Universitiesby A. M. Carr-Saunders-that is the document to which
you referred. Now you quoted from page 12 of that document. Had you
read the rest of the document, Sir?
hïr.R~TENBACH : es, at least a dozen times.
Air.CROSS: Well, Sir, immediately following the passage from which
you quoted there is the following set forth on the same page:
"Hnwever, certain African countries which do not have institu-
tions of higher education at an,or which have such institutions but
not in al1 fields, or mhich have institutionwhich are limited in
certain fields, will have to continue sending their undergraduates
abroad for as long as necessary."
For the sake of completeness of your testimony on this point, would
you agree that this is relevtotthe matter to~vliicyou drew the Court's
attention in what you quoted, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC No:, that is not relevant to wh1tquoted. What 1
quoted was relevant to what 1as a rule cal1the social service aspect of a
university, service of the community. That is relevant to comrnunities
where there is no university, like South West Africa, for instance, the
mandated Territory.
Rlr.GRCISS Y:OUwould not agree then, Sir, that the reference in this
article to institutions which are limited in certain f...ds
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hh:re are two parties theri:. One is tvith no institu-
tions and the other is where the institutions are limited in certain fields,
Iike theBantu Colleges of the Republic, and in that scnse isapposite.
Mr. Gaass: In that sense then, Sir, wha1have read would be relevant
to what you have referred to?
hlr.RAUTENBAC Ht:would be relevant, yes.
Mr. GROSS : OW,also on the same page, in connection with graduate
study. as distinguished from undergraduate st:udy, which is the only
study you have referred to in what you have read to the Court, 1 read
the following two sentences, again on pag12 of the publicationStafing
AfricaqzUniversitiesby A. 31. Carr-Saunders. After the portion from
which you have read your escerpt he states as follows:
"It is quite otherwise in respect of gracluates study. Graduates
study overseas can be a most stimulating and memorable experience;
for a future university teacher it is of special value. FAfrican
this ismarkedly the case, because African universities are usually
isolated and a university teacher should know something of the
academic world outside the confines of the institution where he
graduated."
LVouldyou want me torepeat this sentence by sentence, or do you get
the drift of it?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Ho, 1 could almost quoteitmyself.
&Ir. GROSS: NOW, Sir, that being the case, would you express Sour
agreement or disagreement with it?
Rlr. RAUTENBAC H :m in agreement with this, that the academic
picture to which lie refers,iefly at the end, that it is to his advantage43O SOUTH \EST AFRICa
to visit other universities, and that is1,has Chairman of the Bantu
Collegeof the North, wasincomplete agreement when Professor Kgnan,
to whom 1have often referredwas invited tothe United States, that he
shouId go.My opinion was asked and Ithought it \vasavery good op-
portunity for him to get experience, that kind of experience. But that
passage refers to two matters.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir, but sticking tothe one, may1pursue that foa
moment or two, with respect to the considerations which you have just
mentioned, is it, if you are aware, the policy of the Government of the
Republic,either withrespect to South West Africa or with resptotthe
Republicitself, orboth, to encourage or discourage travel abroad by non-
White students as scholars for graduate studies?
Mr. ~UTEKBACH: Where provision is made in South Africa, it appears
to be that the Governmentdoes not encourage study abroad.But 1have
come up against cases where students were granted visas to study
abroad. In the course omy sojourn here1 came across somethingpub-
lished inone of the American papers, where a student had arrived in
America for advanced study in divinity, from South Afnca, and he had
not fled South Africa, he had come thein a fit aproper way asa man
studying divinityought to do.
Mr.GROSS :ir,1believed you testified that you bverenot personally
familiar with the, shalwe cal1 it, visa policof the South African
Governrnent with respect to this question. Therefore, have you, since the
previous testimony on that point, had occasion to look into that matter?
Mr.RAUTENBA :1have reflected on that matter an1have come to
the conclusion that there arc good grounds for saying that the same
policies are applied to White and non-\mias regards visas.
hlr. GROSS:The basisfor your ...
Mr. RAUTENBAC By that 1 mean that I remember that there were
cases where visas were refused tWhite persons, and there were cases
where Bantu persons or Coloured persons received th1remember that
of the men norninatedby that one body on bvhich1 served, that is the
Advisory Body of the British Council, that visas had been granted to
sorne.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, with respect to this matter, do you know how
many applications, for example, during the pst year, or five years if you
wish, were made by M'bitesfor visas to study abroad as distinguished
from non-Whites applying for the sarne purpose?
interest.TENBACH: No, hlr. Yresident, it was outside my sphere of
Mr. GROSS: DOyou know, Sir, of your own knowledge, approxitnately
-perhaps 1have asked this before, if so 1 will apologize to the Court-
how maay non-White students are outside South Africa without the per-
mission of the South African Government?
Mr. RAWTENBAC NWO.:1know there are students: one reads about
them, one hears about them, and some daim to be students, but 1 do
not know the precise number.
Rlr.GROSSA :nd do you know, Sir, how many students are outside,
how many non-White students are pursuing studies outside of South
Africa ~vititftihe permission of the South African Government?
hlr.RAUTEXBAC NHO,but 1think there are a considerable numb.. .
hlr.GROSSO :fnon-imites?
Mr. RAUTEXBAC \r:llnow that raises doubts imy rnind, because WITXESSES ASD EXPERTS 43 T
the other day you mentioned a brochure and Ihad an opportunity of
looking into tha.t report. and lvhere you told me, hlr. President, informed
me that there were so many Rlack post-graduate students of agriculture
in the United States. I have in the meantirne looked at that brochure and
there is no proof whatsoever that these arc 13Iackstudents. They are
called South African students and African studentsand for al11 kiiow
they rnay be White. and that is why, as1 say, froin the sources at rny
disposai at the present moment1 cannot reply to that question.
Mr. GROSS: The publication to which you refer isentitled Alricnn
Sludents andStzrdyProgrammesinthe United States?
Mr. RAUTEXBAC THh:t is the one.
hlr.G~oss: Publisliedby the House Foreign Affairs Committee. The
report ...
Mr. RAUTENBAC H:ave seen that.
Mr. GROSS:The report on African students and your çtudy of this
document, which was made available to you,Sir, follouringthe testimony
which wa:; brought out, has left you in doubt as to whether the term
"African student" refers to Whites as well as non-Whites?
Mr. RA~JTENBAC IHhas left me in doubtasto the correctness of your
assertion that these do actually refer to :Black students. In the record
somewhem Mr. Gross used the words twice about Black studentsand now
from that brochure 1cannot make that inference. The possibility is that
they are White students. The Americans seem to call ail people from
Africa, Africans, and 1 rather like that at timeç.
&Ir.G~oss: Perhaps did you, in studying the document, or perhaps
you did not have sufficient time to peruse it carefully, corne across, Sir,
the testimony of the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, ArthHum-
mell, Jr., with respect to this matter?
Mr. RAIJTENBAC Hf. President, no. 1 simpiy attended to what had
been stated and mcntioned here, just to check up on that, because 1was
rather disappointed atrnyown ignorance in iiot knowing that there were
fourpost-paduate Bantu studentsin the United States of America,when
1 had rather pricled myself on knowing something of what washappening.
hIr.G~oss: Now, Sir, you referred to thc graduate students in agricul-
ture and those jiou recalled were iisted from SouttéstAfrica?
Mr. RAUTESBACH 1was inforrned they were listed with South West
Africa.
Mr. GKUSSO : nthe basis of your reading of tiiis report, you are under
the impression that one or more of these South West African students
may be White?
Mr. RAIJTEKRAC H :m under the impression that, on the basis of
dealing with that report, they are probablalWhitc.
Mr. GRCISS :he South West Africans?
Mr.RAI~TENBA CYHes.
Nr. GROSS: Then, Sir, could 1 call your attention to the testimony
which I have identified, which is at pa145 of the report, which refers
to the scliolarship programme-this is paragraph S-from Southern
Africa which includes, of course, South Westnd South Africa, and, in
addition, other countries:
"The special scholarshiprogTamme for students from Southern
Africa-this is surely, one of the most significant student progam-
mes being conducted by the Department [that means the Depart-
ment of State]. It involves mostly, but not esclusively, yoting432 SOUTH WEST AFRTCA
African refugees who have been leaving the \Vhite ruIed areas in
Southern Africa in increasing numbers in recent years. Several
reasons, including political oppression, and denial of opportunity for
education motivate their travel. Many are students who are des-
perately seeking education and training in preparation for respon-
sible leadership positions when their countries achieve majority
rule."
This, incidentally, was clipped when the copy was given to counsel and
the clip was, ifI may Say so, Sir, deliberately left at thaplace. 1\vas
hoping that your attention might be called to it. Would you Say,on the
basis of your listeninto this section, thathe term "African" applies to
Whites as well as non-IVhites?
Mr. RAUTENBAC1 H :m in doubt as to what is meant there and 1 am
still in doubt as to whether the post-graduate students mentioned by
Mr. Gross are Blacks or Coloured people and I will rernain in doubt until
such time as 1see their names.1 may infer from that to which group they
belong, but unlessI have secn photographs of thern-1 am very sorry
but 1 cannot accede to that indirect way of makjng me compromise
myself on that point.
Mr. GROSS :es, Sir. The sum and substance ofthe testimony, Sir, is
that you are ignorant of this fact either as to White or non-White
students, isthat correct?
Mr. RAUTENBAC 'e:, I am in the same position, hlr. President, as
Mr. Gross is.
Mr. GROSS T:herefore, when ÿou testified-lvhich Idid not, Sir,and 1
do not want to argue with you-concerning studying at overseas in-
stitutions and the problems presented by university separatjon,you did
not have in mind any facts with respect tothe number or character of
students from South Africa overseas. 1s that correct, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC 1H:id not have in my mind, as 1 tcstified here,
rccent figures.1 informed this Court and itison the record, that in1959
a report had come through either the British Council or the Common-
wealth University Association showing the number of students coming
from various parts of the Commonwealth and 1 mentioned the figure of
1,200in the case of Nigeri1.get reports from time to time from American
institutions (there is something wita title oI.A.U.),they come in and
I just browse through them as regards the number of students from
various countries, butI make no particular study of that.
Mr. G~oss: Sir, just one more aspect of this-the United Nations
GeneraI Assembly adopted a resolution No. 17oj, 16th Session (this is in
the documents of these proceedings), the 1083rd Plenary Meeting,
19 December 1961 n which, arnong other things, the following is set
forthin the preambular provisicjns:
"Recognizing in particular, the urgent need to ensure the educa-
ijonal advancement of South West Africans beyond the limitations
imposed by the Bantu educational system in force in South West
Africa and South Africa, and to prepare them for service in the
administration of their country.
"Recognizing that the indigenous inhabitants of South West
Africa, whose country can appropriately be designated as being
economically underdeveloped, have a legitimate right to receive
benefits from the United Nations programmes of technical co-
operation but, owing to the reiusal of the mandatory power to co- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 433
operate and receive sucli assistance on their behaIf, have not so far
benefited from such programmes."
I pause there, and ask you whether you interpret or have doubts con-
cerning whether this resolution refers to Wlite as well as non-White
Africans and South West Africans?
Mr. RAUTENBAC1 Hd:id not know what question was coming so 1
paid no particular attention to that passage andhIr.President,1would
be very pleased to hear that passage once more; what is relevant.
Mr. GROSS1 :will just read the first paragraph:
"Recognizing in particular the urgent need to assurethe educa-
tional advancement of South West Africans beyond the limita-
tions... etc."
Mr. RAUTEXBAC SHo:th West Africans means al1South West Africans.
Mr. GRC~S S :d you do not know and you do not have an impression
whether this resolution refers to Whites as well as non-Whites?
MT. RAITTENBAC 1R:ould Say in a general way,1 ~ould expect it to
refer tothe non-Whites because the word "undeveloped" country is used
and in thinking of the undeveloped 1also think of the part of the people
who have, as yet, lacked and in that respcct thcn, taking the whole
together,rny analysis would be, it is meant to refer to the non-Whites,
even if it seems South Africans at the beginninIt ijust an impression,
hIr.President.
Rlr.G~oss: Biit you are making a reasonable inference from the context
are you not, Sir?
hlr. RAUTEXBACH 1:hope so, Sir.
Mr. GROSS :Vithrespect to the policy to which this resolution refers,
that is to say, the policp of the mandatorpowt:riii terms of the refusa1
of the Mandatory-perhaps pou had not paid attention to this either?
Mr.RAUTENBAC Hr:gistered that.
hlr. GROSS:"That owing to the refusal of the mandatory power to
CO-operate and receive such assistance on their behalf, etc."-in your
studies, Sir,n the work of your Advisory Comniission, of which youare
Chairman, and in your testimony as an expert and witness here, what
knowledge, if any, do you havewithrespect to United Nations resolutions
or policies on the subjcct of university apartheor any other aspect of
education in the Republic or in the Territory?
Mr. RALTTENBAC 1pa:y a good deal of attention to bodies concerned
or bodies working under the United Nations which pay particular
attention to education and particularly educationin Africa, and 1 find
these documents most useful. 1 have already quoted from some of them
and I have another nurnber of quotcs here which are relevant to the
whole of Africa and to South Africa, and to the African people of South
Africa, but:for the remainder 1 do not take much note of thesI.cannot
and I have not the time. I hold down mnny jobs and 1 regret that1
must Say that I read what the ordinary newspaper reader reads-things
likethe Sunday Times and this type of paper, and its opposite numbers,
too, theSondagr~ews hat is, the Afrikaans-speaking paper, andI make
no special study of the United Nations activities-simply have not got
the tirne.
Mr. G~oss:Do you have the time, Sir, in connection with the advice
which your Council, and you, as its Chairman, give with regard to CO-
ordinating the educational policies and secondary leveIs of the Republic434 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
as a whole, to learn what, if any, United Xations General Assernbly
resolutions, for example, have had to Say with regard to the matter of
apartheid, or educatjonal apartheid, specifically?
hfr.RAUTENBAC Ho, 1pay more attention to, as 1Say,for exampie
the conference under the United Nations in Geneva in1963 on the topic
of Higher Education and Technology as hpplied to the Underdeveloped
Countries.1 pay attention to what was published on16 May of this year
as regards the useof the vernacular. Ipay attention to many of these
reports because tliey are very uçeful. Educational planninwas one of
the reports issued by United Nations. 1 have great respect for these
reports because they draw onthe expertise of many countrieofthe ïvorld
and 1learn from them.
Mr. G~oss:Do any of these reports to which you refer espres judg-
ments orconclusions with respect to the system of university apartheid?
Mr. RAUTENBACH N:O, 1don't remember having seen that in these
reports by education bodies, those which 1 have read, for instance, on
primary education. 1 have read one on primary cducation, and 1 have
read various others on educational planning;in fact, the first draft was
sent round the world for advice, whether certain suggestions could be
made on educational planning, and it chiefly referred to educational
planning in under-developed communities. 1 waç very interested in that.
Mr. G~oss: \Vas there any reference in that document in any sense
regarding the policy. enforced or otherwise, of segregatinnthe educa-
tional systern 7
Mr.RAUTEXBACN HO:;1will not Say this under oath, bu1remember
something of a more positive nature, and that is the equaIity of al1
people, or the common humanity-that was a point made in more than
one of these, that that shouldbe part and parce1 of education in this
preçent-day world; 1 remember that side, though that 1think would be
the opposite çideof the coin to which you are referring.
Mr. GROSS : You mean that would imply support for separation?
Mr. RAUTEXBACH So:me would regard it as being support for inte-
gration.
Mr. G~oss: With respect to another organ of the United Bations-1
refer to the United Nations SecurityCouncil-arc you farniliar with, or
have you heard of, a report by a so-called groupof experts which \vas
appointed by the Secretary-General pursuant to a Security Council
resolution of4December 1963, Sjç741, whichisin the documents of these
proceedings?
Mr.RAVTENRA :NHo-1 have been shakingmy head horizontally ever
since the word was raiçed-1 do not know anything about it.
Nr. GROSS : OUdo not know anything about it?
&Ir.RAUTENBACN HO: ,1don't.
Mr. GROSSI:n connection with the United Nations studieswhich you
].ravemade, and asto which I believe you have testifiethat you have
corne across no direct references to the question of university segregation
in South Africa...
Mr. RAUTENBAC :Hwould Say there was not that prominence given to
it that thastruck me as one of the outstanding points in the documents
1had before me; it mayhave cscaped my notice because1browse through
many of these things-they are huge volumes-eight-volume reports, for
instance, and1 have got to browse through them.
Mr.GROSS It might perhaps refresh your recollcction theif 1citea WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 435
brief excerpt from page 30 oSI5658 of20 April1964, the United Nations
Security Council document which is the report of the group of experts.
Paragraph 76 (j) on page 30 states as foliows:
"It iç in higher education that most rapid reforms can be im-
plernented both to provide training in the professions and othenvise
to provide the leaders whom South Africa will so much need. \.ire
recommend that the Convention [tliey propose an inter-racial con-
vention, as you may know] should at once consider the early and full
removal of the recently irnposed restrictions in the univcrsities of
South Africa."
Does this refreshyour recokction as to the pages through which you
browsed?
Mr. R~UTENBACH :o, it does not refresh my recollection, becau1e
do not read what refers to the Security Councso,it cannot refresh what
1 have not-read.
Alr.GRC~S Sagree with that. With respect now to one more citation
to which you referredand began to quote with approval,that is tSay a
work by Sir Eric Ashby to whom you referred in the verbatirn recordof
4 October at page 342,suflcpra-doyou have that?
Mr. RAUTENBACN H: ,Iremember that.
nlr.G~oss: Sir Eric Ashby is the personis he not, whosecirrsicdum
vita end esperience you set forth at pa3427
Mt. RAUTEXBA :OHnly partlg.
illr. G~oss: His distinctions exceed those to which you referred?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hh. by far.
Mr. G~oss: I should like to read from a ivriting ofSirEric Ashby
which appeared in the publication Minerva to which you referred, in
Volume 1, No. 1,of Autumn 1962.1 believe, incidentally, that you are
familiar with thipaper and have actually written concerninit, ithat
not so?
Mr. RAIITENBAC He:, this imy pamphlet on that.
blr.GROSS: SirEric Ashby was, was he not, invited to give the first
Chancellor's lecture delivered in the Great Hall ofthe University of
Witwatersrand on 4 Apnl 1962, is that correct?
hlr.RAUTENBAC : Horrect.
Mr. GROSS A:nd is it correcasset forth in the head-note to this piece,
that the Chancellor's lecture was establiçhed to cornmernorate in every
third year the following dedication, whicwas affirmed by the General
Assembly of the University on 16 April 1959-are you familiar with
whether the Chancellor's lecture waç established to commemorate in
every third year this folloiving dedication?
hlr. RAUTENBAC :HYes.
Mr. GROSS :The dedication reads asfollows:'
"ive are gathered here today to affiin thé name of theUniver-
sity othe Witwatersrand that it is Ourduty to uphold the principle
thata.univcrsity is a place where meii and iromen without regard to
race and colour are \\;elcornejoininthe acquisitionand advance-
ment of knowledge and to continue faithfully to defend this ideal
against al1who have sought by legislative enactment to curtaii the
autonomy of the university. Now therefore we dedicate ourselves to
the maintenance of this ideal, and tothe restoration of the autonomy
of our University."436 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
That is the end of the dedicatory plaque. Would you agree that this
dedication is a clear indicatiofthe viewpoint of the General Assernbly
of the University?
Mr. RAUTENBACH Of the General Assembly?
Mr. GROSS: Yes, the dedication which was affirmed by the General
Assembly of the University on 16 April 1959.
Mr. RAUTENBAC1 H:don't know, 1 have never heard the words
"General Assembly" used in connection with a university inSouth Africa.
Mr. GROSS: 1 çee. Thatisthe expression used here.
Mr. RAUTENBACH B:ut that has no standingin lawor in the statutes.
Mr.GROSS:SOthat you do not know to what body that phrase refers?
Mr. RAUTENBACH N:O, 1 have never hcard those words used before.
The convocation, yes, 1 know what that is, and a congregation, but 1
don't think the words "General Assembly" .. .
hlr. GROSS:Iliould you agree that, irrespecof-1 am afraid 1cannot
enlighten the Court with respect to what the "General Assembly" referred
to here is-would you agree that this dedicatory plaque and staternent
represents the view of the University as an institution?
Mr. RAUTEXBACY He:s,1 think it represents the opinion of the
majority, and the opinion of the majority is regarded as the opinion of
the University, ofitsstaff and of its students.
Mr.GROSSA : nd ofthe Chancellor?
AIr.RAUTENBACH Of course, and the Chancellor, who asfigure-head.
&Ir.G~oss: Who is what?
3fr. RAUTENBACH A: figure-head-he isa titular head, he is no active
participant in university mattcrs.
hlr. GROSS:Who is the active head?
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:he active head is the Vice-Chancellor.
Afr.G~oss: And is this true of hiview as ivell?
Mr. KAUTENBACH Y:es, the present Vice-Chancellor, certainly.
Mr. GROSS: And he is not a figure-head?
Rlr. RAUTENBACH P:rofessor Macronen, no-he is the man who is rny
opposite number, the Rector; he hearsthe heat of theday and the ~01d
of the night.
Mr. CROSS:Now in the text of his speech Sir Eric Ashby stated as
follows, and 1 quote frompage 23 of the pamphlet under discussion:
"As a guest in your country 1 çhall not comment on whether
apartheid in genera1 is righbut 1do condenln without reserve the
shallow assumption that even if apartheid were right for the Pest l
Office andthe railmay station, it would automatically be right for
the classroom."
1will go back and read this sentenceby sentence with pleasure.
hfr. RAUTENBACH No, 1 know that, 1 could almost quotitmyself.
Mr. G~oss:
"It is difficult to see any relevance at al1between a segregation of
Black and White and the sale of stamps and tickets."
Mr. RAUTENBACH A:nd the saleof ...?
Mr. G~oss: And the sale of stamps and tickets.
Mr. RAUTEKBACH T:he sale of staf., .?
Mr. G~oss: Yes, because, i1 may refresh your recollection, he says: WITNESSES .4ND EXPERTS 437
even if apartheid were right for tlie Post Officeand the railway
station,it would automaticalIy be right for the classroom."
Then he goes on to talk about what happens in Past Officesand railway
stations, and says: "It is difiicult to any relevance at all betweena
çegregation of Black and iVhite and the sale of stamps and tickets."
Rfr. RAUTENBAC Isn':t the phrase "bystaff sf tickets", because the
sale of staff-how can you sel1a staff?
Mr. GRC~ SSScllstamps.
Rlr. RAUTENBA :OHh, starnps-1 thought you said staffs-1 am very
sorry.
Rlr.GRC~S S:it the fact that there are different lines for White and
BIack in the purchase of stamps at Post Offices?
hfr. RAUTENBACH Y:es.
Mr. GROSSA : nd isit a fact tliat there are differcnt entrances for Lhites
and Blacks in raihoad stations?
Nr. RAUTENBACN Ho:, not different entrances always,but different
coaches, 1 think; it all depends on the size afstation-1 am not sure.
Mr. G~oss:With respect to the sale of tickeisit or is it not the fact
that Whites and Blacks form clifferentlines to 1)uytickets?
hlr. RA~JTENBAC :Hes, they form different lines.
Mr. GROSS:This, then, is probably what, no doubt, Sir Eric Ashby
!vas referring to, but then he goes on now, pertineiitly ta the university
question directly, and sajrs as follows:
"Biit the very purpose of a university, the faith it Iives by
Thereforeitheoonly justification for university apartheid would beerit.
convincing etridence for the assertion that Black men are inferior
againstthis assertion." men. In fact there is a convincing evidence
I pause there.
Now, may I ask you Sir, with respect to Sir EriAshby's judgment as
reflected here, that the only justification for university apartheid would
be convincing evjdence for the assertion that Black men are inferior
intellectuallyto White men-do you agree wiih that judgment by this
person ?
Mr. RAUTENBACN HO:.There are other grounds and it would be un-
acceptable morally, to me, if the present systeni is based on a theory of
inferiority of any group.
hlr. GROSÇ:But it is a fsct, Sir,is iinot. thlit the admission or the
admissibilityof the members of the cornmunity. and I refertu the com-
munity of South Africa and ofSouth West Africa, isunder the enforced
segregation system of 1959 and onwards, basecl on ethnic ~Iassification
rather than on intelleduai merit? 1s that a correct statement, Sir?
hlr. RAIITENBAC Tha:t is a correct statement, but that is sornething
other than what you have been asking me to Say,that the only justifiable
basis is thatofintellectual inferiority. It would heme a great deal if
you would keep these mntters apart.
nfr. GRC~ÇS 1:an1not attempting to characterize Sir Eric's opinion,1
am putting it ionvardto you,Sir, in hiç own terms for your own reaction
and analysis, and agreement ar disagreement, Irery brieflyI would like
to refer for-onor two specificpurposes tothe piiblicatiotowhich IW~S438 SOUTHWEST AFRICB
referring yesterday, Open Universilies zouth Africa, which is the
publication as you are aware.. .
Mr. RAUTENRAC Hhat Cape Towmmeeting.
Mr. GROSÇY : es, Sir.
Mr. RAUTENRAC H:rg56.
Mr. GROSS Y:es, that is right, Sir. Now, yesterday we were discussing
the essence of the case as they expressed 1would like to place in
the record, for your agreement or disagreement, the conclusions reached.
On page 17,the report states:
"The attack on the open universitiesoes not emanate from
within these institutions, which alone have practical experience of
the association of White and non-White students at the university
level."
Do you have any basis of experience or other basis for an astoion
whether it is a correct analysis that the attack on the open universities
does not emanate from within these institutions?
hlr. RAUTENBAC 1a: under the impression that theattack did not
emanate from inside those universities-Universities of Cape Town
and Witwatersrand.
Mr. GROSS: Then, in the same contest, the second sentence of this
excerpt:
"On the contrary, the CounciIs, Senates and staff and student
organizations of both the open universities, have rby over-
whelming majorities re-affirmed their faith in the present system."
On the basis of your experience and knowledge, would you agree with
that characterization of the pooftthe bodies andgroups concerned?
Mr.RAUTENBAC Yes:. with emphasis on the word "majorities".
Mr. GROSS: Overwhelrning majorities?
Mr.RAUTENBAC 1w:ould not even use the word "overwhelming".
Mr. G~oss:You aould not, Sir?
Mr. RAUTEXBAC HO:,because matters have changed since then.
RIT .ROSS :his refers tot...
Mt. RAUTENSAC Th:t is historical.
hlrGROSS T:his necessarily refers to the situation as analysed in
February 1957 , hen this repowas made, Sir.
Mr. RAUTENBAC Yes:, 1 think asa diagnoçis of the situation then 1
could agree witthat.
Mr. rr T' :OW,Sir, they go on to say:
helther does theattack ernanate frompublicwhich supports
these institutions nor yet from non-Whites anxious to withdraw
from contact with the Whites."
DOyou agree with that conclusion?
Mr.RAUTENBAC NH:, I cannot Say, because what is meant by the
words "public which supportsse institutions"-theare two ways of
supportinan institution: one is by providing funds by way of gifts and
donations and the other is by sendchildrenboys and girls, young
men and women to these institutions. If bythat ismeant the first, namely
those who have made financial contributions of a considerabl1 nature,
think that tvoube correct, but not the second, because the agitation
against the UniversiofWitwatersrand and Cape Town very often-
though medium of the papers-came from people who claimed to have WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 439
children on these campuses. 50, it is difficfor me, by a simple yes or
no, to reply to a question which involves too rnuch.
&Ir.G~oss: Thank you Sir. 1want to caUto your attention the further
judgment of these two universities espresçed through the Joint Con-
ference. Parenthetically Sir, 1do not intend to nor do 1invite a discussion
of a political nature. am reading this in the context of the report of the
universities involved:
"The attack on the open universities emanates from a political
party whicli at preçent happens to control the government. It has
been a sustained attack continued since1948 in the party press, at
party congresses, and in parIiament."
LVouJdyou agree, Sir,with that as a statement of fact?
hlr. RAUTEXBACH N:o,1 would not agree.
Mr. GROSS: Irimhat respect is it erroncouin your judgment, Sir?
Mr. ~~UTENB.~CH: In that very period, 1received a telegram from a
hlember of Parliament representing a Natal constituency and Natal, as
I previously said, is chiefly populated by South Africans of English
descent. Now I had ateIegram asking me whether it was thought possible,
and that \vas about a week after the university had started, to accom-
modate a young girl, an English-speaking girl from Natal, who had gone
to the University of Witwatersrand but had never realized what the
situation was in the Witwatersrand campus and he no longer saw his ivay
clear, this parent, to let his daughter stûy there if we could accommodate
her at the University of Pretoria. NOIV,from the man's name, etc.,.I
would not think he was a supporter of the government which h- been in
power for so many years; it was an English name and she was English-
speaking andthe question asked was also whether we could give her sorne
assistance with her lagin the Afrikaans language which is the medium
of instruction. So that the oppositiondid not corne entirely from that
political party, but1would say chiefly and ovenvhelrningly, to use the
other word; there were also people outside the Nationalist Party, kvho
very clearly indicated they were not pleased with the state of affairs.,
&Ir.GROSS:May 1 askone more question, with your permission, prior
to the recess-it finishes this.
The PRESIDEN Tertainly.
Mr. GROSS:And then finally the report sets fort11the view that:
"Now thatit haç become clear that this attackhas failed to induce
the open universitiesoftheir own accord toclose their doors to non-
White students, the Government hüs decided to resort to coercion."
Sir, do you agree that it had become clear that the open universities
could not be induced of their own accorcl to close their doors to non-
White students?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Tkn:ow that was the contcntion.
The FRICSIDENT 1:did not catch the answer.
Mr. RAIJTENBAC 1Hknow that was the contention of the represen-
tatives of these universities.
Mr. G~ciss:Now Sir, they were making a contention with respect to
their own policy and objectives?
hIr. RAUTENBAC Hhe contention was thatit had now become clear
that these universities would not of tlieir own accord close their doon-
now the compulsion was brought about.
Mr. GROSS: 1 did not ask that question, Sir, 1asked you wliether you44O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
agreed with the statement, thefirst part of this dual thought. Had it in
fact,as they assert, become clear thatthe open universities had not been
induced to close their doors of their own accord-wouldyou agree with
that, Sir?
Mt. RAUTENBACIH f :the other statement is accepted, the majority
having expressed itself in favour of retaining the system, then 1 take it,
it had become clear by then.
Mr. GROSST :hen finally Si...
Mr. RAUTENBACIH t :is their opinion, you see. You are askime to
give an opinion on other people's opinion on other matters.
Mr.GROS: It is their opinion but it is their university, Sir, is that not
so?
hlr. ~UTENBACH: Yes, and different people have different opinions.
Air. GROSS: Now Sir, 1 am talking about the opinion of the people
whose universityitisand who are responsibleforitsaffairs.
Mr. RAUTEXBACH: Yes, that is opinion but that is what the Greeks
cal1doxaand not episteme-it is a difference.
Mr. GROSS:NOWmay 1 just, without understanding fully the sig-
nificance of the last Greek phrase, ask you whether the conclusion that
the Government had decided to resort to coercion under those circum-
stances would in your view bean accurate and realistic reflection of the
reason for the adoption of thegislative coercion as a method of univer-
sity segregation.
Mr. RAUTENBAC 1Ht:hink, wital1honesty, 1must Sayit would prob-
ably have been.
Mr. G~oss: The reason?
Mr. RAUTENBACH: Yes.
Mi. GROSSD : r. Rautenbach, there has been some testimony with
respect to persons classified as ColourThere has been, has there not,
asuccession of studies made by various commissions with respect to the
educational system and regarding the persons who are classified as
Coloureds, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC By:various commissions and researchers.
&Ir.GROSS:Researchers. And was one ofthose the Holloway Com-
mission, to which reference has been made this morning?
Mr. RAUTENSACH: The Holloway Commission dealt, as faras1 know,
with non-\'hite education and, the Coloured people being a group in that
category, dealt with that.
Mr.G~oss: Sir,a public address was made by former Justice Centlivres
whe not, Sir?e, became Chancellor of the University of Cape Town, did
Mr.RAUTENBACH He:did.
Mr. G~oss: In this address entitled "Blundering into University
Apartheid", in Cape Town, 5 February 1959-are you familiar with this
address by any chance, Sir?
Mr. RAVTENBACI Ht:hi~k Isaw a report in the paper. Wasit onthe
occasionof agraduation ceremony?
Mr. GROSSI:t waç before the InstituteofCitizenship.
Mr. RAUTENSAC No,:1think 1 saw a summary report of that.
Rlr.GROSSC : hancellor Centlivres made the followi...
Mr. RAUTEKBACH: Xow 1 rcmember about it.
fiIr. GROSÇHe made the folloivingreference to this mattcr in ,respect
of the Commission report. He says at page 3 of the pamphlet which was WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 44I
issued by the so-called Academic Freedorn Cornmittee of the University
of Cape Town, published by the Standard Press Lirnited, in Cape Town,
that :
"The Commission dealt specially with the position occupied by the
Coloured people in Our SocietyIt said:
' 'Due to many centuries of contact with the European. cultural
affinity between the Coloured and the European is rnuch closer
than between him and the Bantu.' "
hlay 1pause there to Say, Sir, mhether you would agree with that
comment of the Holioway Commission as quoted by Justice Centlivres?
hfr.RAUTEXBAC IHw:ould ernphatically agree with that.
hlr.GROSS :ustice Centiivres goes on to Say:
"It [again the Commissionj expressed the opinion that [now
quoting from the Commission] 'unless many Coloureds are to lose the
opportunity of acquiring a university eclucation, the Coloureds
shoulcl be alIowed, as at present, to continue their non-separate
studies at the universities, especially at the UniversCapeoTown
ivhich is prepared to admit them'."
Now, Sir, Ishould like to askyou whether the Coloureds are, since
1959, permitted to continue their education at the University of Cape
Town ?
Mr. RAUTENBAC Hes, but, Mr. President, they are subjectto the
Ministergiving them permission and there are,I think; over300 or just
under 300-let us settle at 300.
Mr. G~oss:Al1of these pursuant to permission granteby the Rlinister,
Sir?
Mr. RAUTEKRAC Som:e were carry-overs from the pre-1959 Act, I
think. Because the rnedical training is over six yearmanyd may have
failedand, you know, the new system has only been in effect sin1960.
We are now in the sixth year.So 1 think some n,ould be carry-overs and
some would have been granted special permission.
hfr.CROSS Y:OUdonot know, Sir,or do you, how many Coloureds have
been admitted to Cape Town pursuant to special exceptions made by the
Minister?
Mr. RAUTENBAC YHes. 1have a document in the hotel.. .
hfr. G~oss: You do not know now, Sir?
Mr. RAUTENBAC HO:.Numbers were given of Bantu, Coloured and
Indians to whom the Biinister had given permission to study at open
universities.
&IrG. ROSS T:here are nurnbers of themNom, Sir, on the prernise that
there are considerable numbers of Colouredç at the University, would
you express an opinion to the Court whether the systern of mixed educa-
tion, iIrnay cal1it that, has produced tension or frustration or drsorder,
or any otht:r anti-social syrnptoms?
blr.RAUTESBAC1 Hhave this knowledge from Press reports tliat the
Principaland Vice-Chancellor of that Universitha been at loggerheads
from time to time with his Students' Representative Council. The
foral1students in that campus and the Principal again sticks to what hen
calls "traditionand the result is that they have been ai Ioggerhefor
a long time. So that there is at least an unpleasantness between the
Principaland his students and1 realise what that means othe campus.442 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. G~oss: 1s ityour opinion, Sir, as an expert or otherwise, ththe
attendance by Coloureds in these considerable numbers to which you
refer is a desirable or undesirable phenomenon from the aspect of, let us
say, promoting harmony between races?
Blr. RAUTEKBAC \trth what 1 have just said in rnind,1 would be
inclined to Saythat wherever they are together on one campus sooner or
later you get somc form of trouble because what 1 have just mentioned
contradictswhat has been read this morning from the pamphlet about the
Cape Town meeting. That was not mentioned in the pamphlet but 1
mentioned it.
hlr. GROSSD : O YOU agree, Sir, with the Holloway Commission report
as quoted by Justice Centlivres that many Coloureds would lose their
opportunity for acquiring a university education if they were not ad-
mitted to the White universities?
hlr. RAUTENBAC H:ith a certain qualification, that if they were not
admitted tothe White universities then they would lose their opportunity
of qualifying in that subject or profession for which the Coloured Univer-
sity of the Western Cape does not as yet make provision and that is the
reason why 300 are still at Cape Town University because, as a more
developed conimunity, they study in many more branches of learning
than the Bantu at present, owing to the fact that there are more matri-
culants, there is a greater urge in various directions.
Mr.GKOSSS :ir,1would like to ask,3swe approach now the conclusion
of this cross-exmination, whether you \\-ould be prepared to agree to
the proposition that the educational system of segregation is of the
essence of the officia1policy of apartheid in all aspects of the social order
in the Territory and in South Africa? Would you agree to that succinct
proposition?
hlr.RAUTEXBAC :Ht çeems to be a very important question. 1would
like to hear itgain.
llrGROS S\Vould you agree to thiasa succinct formulation, that the
system of educational segregation-specificaily university apartheid-is
of the essenceof the officia1policy of apartheinal1aspects of the social
order in the Republic and in the Tenitory?
Mr. RAUTESBACH Ed:ucation as conducted in South Africa at present
is afacet of the policy of separation-othe programme ofseparation.
hfr.GROÇS: You would, then, Sir, agree-would you or would you not
-to the proposition as formülated succinctly-by the Prime Minister in a
statement quoted in the Rejoinder, V, page zj2,as follow~: "There
no doubt whatsoever as to the attitude othe National Party: The White
man will govern his country and the Bantu will govern his people, his
arcas. .." Would you Say,Sir, that the educationalsystem which prevails
in South Africa and represents the higher education of 5011th West
Africa is geared to the proposition that the White man is tbe educated
to govern his country and the Bantu is to be educated to govern his
people?
Mr. RAUTENUAC :HMr. President, it my sincere conviction that that
is the objective of the programme of separation.
Mr. GROSS: And, Sir, would you, then, agree or disagree that this
educational division,çoto speak-the dual system, if1may cal1it that-
would not be relevant or applicable if the policy were to prepare the
citizen regardless of colour or race for life in a common society, a common
economy ? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 443
&IrRAUTENBAC VHarious questions are being asked at the same time
-a common society and a common economy.
Nr. GROSS: CVouIdyou break down the two? I did not realize there
was a distinction, Sir. M1,then, breakitdown and ask a question with
respect to acommon society in which the various races work together
andshare cornmon problems of a social, or economic, or political nature?
Mr. RAUTENBAC HO:W,that explanation in between has somemhat
removed the question from my mind. 1 am very sorry.
Mr.GROSS : ould you saySir,that the dual aspect of the educational
system woiild be relevant and appropriate if the objective were to educate
both White and non-White for a comrnon socicty in bvhich economic,
political, social objectives were shared? May 1 put the question in that
forrn?
hlr. RAUTENBAC1H still think that separate educatiat this stage,
even if an intevated future was envisaged, would be the best way to
further that objective. Evens in the case of the two language groups
amongst the Whites, the fact of giving each of them their own school,
teachers' training college, and university, throutheir own language,
ha removed dissatisfaction and has contributed towards national unity.
Parallel streams can join.
Mr. G~oss:Does the system which you have just described visit hard-
ship or involve sacrifice on the part of individual non-Whites who are
not granteti the same opportunitieas bVhites in the educational field?
MT. RAU'~ENBAC Ift:ey are n0t granted the sarne opportunities then
that isan injustice but thais,as you Say, suppositious.
Mr. GIIQSS: Suppose, Sir, that an individual (let us think of th1s, if
may invite you todo so, in human terrns), a gifted non-White individual,
in pursuing a study of physics or engineering or music, regards that
faculty at a certain institution has more to offer Iiim than one at another
institution andhe is denied admission because of his ethnicor group
background, do you regard that asa sacrifice which he is asked to make
for the objective which you have set forth?
Mr. RAUTENBA CYes, 1 think there are occasions when the individual
must sacrifice something for the greatest happinofsthe greatest nurn-
ber, but I doubt whether that wouId be such a very serious sacrifice
because the very gifted individuafinds his own way wherever he is.
Mr. GROSS :espite the obstacles, Sir?
Mr. RAUTEXBACH D:espite the obstacles.
Mr. GROSS :have no further questions.
The PRESIDENT :hank you, hlr. Gross. Sir Gerald Fitzmaurice desires
to put certain questions to the Professor. Sir Gerald.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAURIC Dr.:Rautenbach, 1 am sorry to keep
you here any longer after your considerable ordcal, but you could help
me in one or two ways. Several timeç during the course of your evidence
you have mentioned (1think these were your words) "integration in the
classroom and segregation outside". Perhaps 1might read one or two
passages from your evidence. 1 am looking now at the verbatim at page
404, supra,and then, lateron, page 410.
On page 404 you said, near the middle othcpage, "that the so-caUed
open universities never at any time in their existence were in the fullest
sense of the word 'open' universities-onthe classroomswere open but
not the other aspectof universjty life."
Then, on page 410 you said:444 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"His [that is to say, the Bantu student] relationship to the White
students who comprise the totality of the çtudent part of that
university is that of a man who attends the same classes, the same
lectures, works in the same laboratones,andhis physical presence in
a geographical sense is on that same campus, but he is deprived of
quite a number of amenities, quite a number of privileges, which
form part and parce1 of the extra-curricu1:tr contribution towards
education."
New, al1that gives me acertain impression but it does not form a very
clear picture.Would one be right in saying that it means this, that in al1
matters appertaining to the actual work of the university-the courses,
the classes, and everything else, the tuition, the supervision-tBantu
student at an open university,or at any university, is in the samc position
as the White student, but that in other matters, that is to Say in what
you might cal1the social life of the university, then he is as if he were not
there and lives his own private life? CVouIdthat be about correct?
hlr. RAUTENBACM HF:President, that is precisely what1meant.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAURICE To take a particular matter, where
would he live? Would he live on the campus?
Mr. RAUTENDACH N:O.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZ~IAURIC N O:.Are these open universities, that
are in question here, ail situated in towns?
hlr. RAUTE~;~ACH Yes, in bigger and smaller towns. There are open
universities in Johannesburg,that is our largest ciin South Africa; the
second largest is Cape Town, but the IVhite population of Cape Town is
more or less the sameas that of Durban and Pretoria.The CO-calledopen
universities of Johannesburg (Ivit~vatersrand),and Cape Town are
situated in cities but Xatal university ha double seat, a double-seated
university-there was a university in Britain of the sarne type,Durham
and Newcastle-on-Tyne, something of this kind-it is situated both in
Pietermaritzburg and Durban.
Durban is a city with a White population of about 2oo,ooo, and with
Indians and others more than that;1suppose the whole would be towards
600,ooo. Well, 1 have mentioned al1 of them now. Pietermaritzburg is
smaller-the capitalcity but very much smaller; pcrhaps it is ~0,000
people.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAURICE W:ell, what it cornes to is this then;
would live in lodgings outside the university campus. Would those be
university lodgings found for him and allotted io hiby the university,
or would he find his own accommodation?
hlr.RAUTENBAC NH:, in the case of the UniversitofNatal, which
do not, in an unqualified wap, cal1 an open university, because it lias
segregated classes, residential facilities are provided, have been provided,
by the university with Government aid for students of medicine. That is,
then, a university dormitory or hall of residence for both men and women
students, but, tomy knowledge, the University of Witwatersrand, that
is an open university, and the University of Cape Town, have notas yet
or did notprovide residence.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZI~AURICE S: in those cases the Bantu students
findtheir own accommodation?
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:heir own lodgings, coming from the Bantu resi-
dential areas chiefiy.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAURIC Ehis morning, Dr. Rautenbach, in WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 445
answer to a question of Mr. Gross, you said that you did not tliink that
the contacts which might be made between White and Black students on
the campus were of the most advantageous kind, and you saidyou could
think of several more favourable rnethods. Had you any particular
methods in rnind?
Mr. RAFTESBACH:Afr. President, 1 had a method in rnind which is
now being exploited by the students of the Bantu Coilege of the North
and students of White universities, and that is to wait for a weekend and
have an agenda, prepared beforehand, so thatthere couid be some con-
centration on a subject of interest and just not talk, talk and talk. 1
forgot to mention that my university campus had avisitfrom a number
of students from the Uivinity Training School at the Bantu Collegeof the
North about three weeks ago. They came to my university campus but
were received by students of divinity. There isa closer contact between
the çtudents of divinity there and at my university than,for instance,
the students of politics at my university and tliose of divinity in the
North,and that type of contact 1 regard as a very good type of contact-
an ad hoc type of contact.
Judge Sir GeralclFITZM~ZURIC WE:ll,does it corne to this, thaa way
you think that arranged contacts are perhnps more fruitful than spon-
taneous ones?
RIr.RAU'TENBAC :Hn certain respects, yes, incertain spheres, but there.
is a possibility of the other also being fruitful, but it is not always the
best. There are times when other forms may be more suitable.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZBIAURICE I: any case, if the student does not
live on the campus 1 imagine that the opportunities for spontaneous
contacts would be relativcly few.
nlr. RAUTENBACH T:hey would be more limitecl; there is, of course, the
refectory,ïvhere they may meet or sit at the saine table, or in the sun-
shinc, or during Our winter days in Soutli Afi-ica. The University of
Witwatersrand's building has snumber of steps facing north: we live in
the southern hemisphere and these students siand 1011there on the steps
and they are usually half asleep-they are not very active at that time
sitting in the Sun. 13ut1 have seen them sitting there, I have visited
IVitwatersrand University and 1 have seen sitting there people of various
groups.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAURICE N:OWDr. Rautenbach, referring again
to yaur statement that the open universities neIrerat any time were, in
the fullest sense of the word, open universiticsthat means really, does
it,that the chief differcnce between the situation as it euisted some years
ago and the situation asit exists now is that the open universities chose
their own Bantu students, or granted them admission themselves, where-
as now it has to be done by the Minister under t.he Act?
Rlr. RAUTEXBAC H :at is so.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZLIAUKIC OE:herwise, you would sapthat there
is no real difference betu~eenthe two situationsin the open universities?
Mr. RAU.TEXBAGH N:O,in that respect thereisno reai difference.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZIII..ZUR :CE ell, now1want to turn to something
else, Dr. R;iutenbach.I wnnt ta recaIl that p:irt of your evidence which
you gave a couple of daysap, 1think it was, in which, quoting the Prime
Minister, Rlr. Verwoerd,SOU said that the ultimate aim of apartheid was
complete political independence of the group; but economic inter-
dependence. In connection with that, in your evidence yesterday, when446 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
the question of votinwas being discussed(1am looking atp.418, szcpra),
in answer to a questionby &Ir.Gross, who said:
"Now, Sir, with respect to those taxpayers who pay the piper,
what role, if any, do they have in the selection of the Government
which decrees their university apartheid system?"
And your answer was: "No, they have no Say. The Black people have
no votes for the rnembers of Parliament1 think that is well known."
Now, silppusing that this aim ofcomplete politicaindependence for
the groups should ultimately be realized, would the Black people, as they
were called in your answer, then have votes in their own areas? Or what
kind of political rights are contemplated for them?
Mr. RAUTENBAC MHr:President, 1 thin1 can refer to the Transkei,
where they have votes and where they voted for the members of their
legislaiive Council; anI think they had a second election, that is the
beginning of that independence-a responsible government, home rule
and then, what the Prime Minister called, political independence.
Judge SirGeraldFIT~~~AURI :They would have their own lepslature?
Mr. RAUTENRA CHes.
Judge Sir GeraldFITZMAURICE T:heir own organs of governrnent?
&Ir.RAUTEXBAC Yes, their own organs of govcrnrnent.
Judge SirGerald FITZMAURI :SEo wouldit becorrect to say thawhat
is contemplated is something like xvhat obtains insiaefederal State?
Mr. RAUTENRAC Hes, ina federal State, because the phrase used by
the Prime Minister in London in1961 was "a commonwcalth ofnations
of southern Africa".
Judge Sir GeraldFITZMAURICE 1:see. LVell,now, just one more thing:
on the same subject, that is to say with referethe ultimatesituation
when apartheid is completely realized, looking apage 381,szrpra, you
said this in answer to a question Blr.Gross:
"That question cannot be answered without some qualifications,
because with \Vhites in one area, in absolute separation, and others
in another area,in absolute separation, thameans there wi11not
even be people who corne from the one and work in the other.
Mr. GROSÇ: That is right, that would be exactly what would
follow. 1s that envisaged as a part of the doctrine of apartheid or
separate deveIopment?"
Then you said :
"No, what 1seem to remember about this is that we will always
have people coming from over the border to work in the White area,
as faras human vision stretches."
hir. Gross then said:
"Then, on the basis ofthatreçponse which you have so clearly
stated, how, if at all, would you explain the Prime hlinister's
reference to the limitations imposed on the freedom of people falling
away as soon as everybody can enjoy his own freedom in his own
territory;what relevance, if any, does that statement have with
respect to the non-mites ~vhowill always be, from time to time or
their life long, working, Iiving,alongside the Whites-wrelevance
does it have, if any, this staternent?"
And then you said"1 stillcannotget the gist of your", and then, following WITNESSEÇ AND EXPERTS 447
on an intervention by the President, 1 seem to detect that Rlr. Groçs
passed away from that point, so that you never Iully developed,1 think,
your answer to that question.
But what do you envisage exactly as regards the working on the part
of one section of the population, sajr the non-Whites, in White sectors, or
\lihites in non-White sectors, when apartheid is completely achieved?
Would it be verÿ much the sarne as it is now or rather different?
Rlr. KAUTEKBAC1 Ht:hink there would be this difference, that there
would not be, or I think very few, Whites still working over the border,
because the expectation isthat as soon as Bantu people have been traiiied
they will take over. May 1 again mention the case of the Transkei at
present. The Chief Minister and his Ministers nll are members of the
Xhosa and related tribes, but the heads of departments, the Secretary
for Education, or for Justice, for the other, isstill a White. The Minister
of Justice is a brother of the Chief hfinister. he is a trained latvyer, but
as soon asa Rantu becomes available for that kind of office,then it is the
understanding that the White man will retire. There are very few LVhites
still involved in the education system of the Traiiçkei, to my knowledge,
and 1 have an idca that there will be fewer Whites over the border than
there will be Black people, Bantu people or Native people, corning to
work in Wlite areas.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAUKIC QEu:itso.Wouldpou still contemplate
that there will be a considerable number of Bantii coming to work in the
White areas?
Mr.RAUTENBXÇM Hr:. President1 think that is a realistic approach.
If demographers state 1978,from then onwards there \vil1be a decline,
but by the year zooo\ve willbe more or less where we were in 1946, or
something of that kind. To my mind, as far aç human vision takes us, 1
think we could as well Say by the middle of the following century there
will stibe many people, unless automation takes over to such an extent
that fewer wo~kers are needed. But 1think even then, for the economicç
of South Africa, automation should not be intioduced at too great a
speed, because that could mean many people being out of work.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAURIC E:ell, leaving automation out of it for
the moment, Dr. Kautenbach, do you then envisage a situation rather
similarto tliat which exists in other parts of tworld? For instance, in
this country, Holland, yon have a large number offoreign workers. You
have the sarne in France and in Switzerland, and, to go across the At-
lantic, I think Iwould be right in saying that considerable numbers of
perçons from Mexico, for instance, come over the border and work in the
United States. Those people do not have full political rights, of course
they have ordinary human rights, but they reniain essentially foreign
workers in nnother country. Npw, is that the sort of situation that you
have in mind?
Air.RAUTENBACT Hh:at is precisely, Mr. Presidcnt, thesort of situation
which 1 have in mind, and, if I may mention tliis,1 was informcd by
people from the farrning community inthe northem part of this country,
Groningen, that long before the European Economic Community was
establiçhed, as faras this lady knew for centuristthe times ofharvests,
workers from Germany had always corne into that province of Holland
and returned again after theharvest.It is,of course, now a much more
prominent matter here, but 1 know about Mexican people going to the
United States; there is now, of course, a limitation imposed upon the448 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
numbers who can come in. 1have just read that the Californian farmers
cannot bring in their fruit harvests because they lack the hands.
Judge Sir Gerald FITZMAUKIC YEe:swell of course al1 the different
cases Vary in their details, but this the kind of situation. Thanyou
very much, Dr. Rautenbach.
The PRESIDENT Si:Louis I,understand you desire tu ask a question.
Judge SirLouis MBANEFOY : OUwere asked at page 379,szcpraof your
evidence on 5 October:
"... these limitations will, to use his term, fa11away as soon as
everybody can enjoy his own freedom and hiç own territory, do you
agree with that evaluation ofhe ...?"
Then there was an interruption andyou said "yes". Further on you were
asked:
"Would ou have any estirnate at all, or basis for an estiaste,
to when, ir ever, the vision will be off the dralving board, so to
speak?"
.4nd you teplie:
"1 am very pleased with that question, Mr. President, because in
the sphere in which 1am active 1 set my target at not later than
1980. By then, the Bantu university colleges will be full fledged
universi ties."
So that when you talk of the targetof 1980, you were thinking of the
tirne whenthe Bantu universities would be fuIly established?
Mr. RAUTENBACH No:t only that,htr. President, butalso when the
members of staff willbe 13antu people to such an extent thathe next
stage can then ernerge, and that is that the Advisory Senate becomes the
Senate and the former Senate, if a few Whites are left, becomes the
Advisory Senate and the Council the same and then with al1the officials
of theUniversity-that isnot only will the size be of such a nature and
the maturity be ofsuch a nature, but the staffing will also be of such a
nature, thatovernight the change covld be effected.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO But the limitations on individual frecdoms
-would they fali away in 1980? It is the beginning of the question.
Mr. RAUTESBACH Y es,Dr. Venvoerd's expression-1 take it that his
successors in office will carry out his wish.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO A:t that point, that is the point when you
have your comrnonwealth of tribes?
Mr. RAUTENBACH C:ommonwealth of tribes, yes. Well, we are ail
tribes.1think they should coincide and run paralleand one may come
laterthan the other but they arc part andparcel of the future which1
hope ail1 emerge.
Judge Sir Louis MUANSFO And doesit envisagecommon citizenship?
Mr. RAVTENBAC H :,it does not envisage cammon citizenship1 am
of the impression that in the oId Commonwealth there was not comrnon
citizenship because for years by legislation1 was a Union national
whereas formerly 1 had been a British national. To my knowledge, and
1 am not knowledgable, the Commonwealth does not imply Common-
wealth citizenship, perhapa common federal parliament, some common
body.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO And it would aiso imply instituting customs
bamers between the different States?
hlr.RAUTENBACH Customs barriers? If you have a Commonwealth WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 449
they woulti probably be there but would be lower than asbetween foreign
countries-that is my idea.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO : You said yesterday at page 406seq5ra,of
the verbat im record :
"1 hope in due time we will become more mature and overcome
that, butbringing people together from various backgrounds may
lead to conflic..."
1 take it you are speaking there of bringing them together in the social
field and iiot generally?
Mr. RAUTEXBAC IHwas thinking here, h1r.President-I mentioned
up above the two language groups amongst the Whites, that bringing
them together on a school campus as often as not led to conflict1 ex-
pressed in the course of wha1 said the sincere hope that we would corne
to greater maturitythan we have come, and 1would also sincerely hope
that in the future South Africa there wiii be forbearance and moreap-
preciation of each other. We will see the human-being first and not the
colour.
Judge Sir LouisMBANEFO X:OW coming back to your apartheid policy,
you said it is political separation with econornic interdependence. That
principIe means that somebody has got to control the relationship in the
economic field-is it envisaged that thatshoulil be shared between the
UThites and the Blacks?
Mr. RAUTENBAC1 H :ave an idea, 1am not sure because 1used the
phrase used by Dr. Verwoerd but he has never expanded on that and 1
am far removed from being anything of an authority on constitutional
issues, but1çhould just think that in someway or other, like the Euro-
pean economic community, there should be a community. That means,
at some pliice people should meet each other, ap:e and put theirapproval
on certain plans or arrangements-a federal form-it could also be very
much like the Commonwealth.
Judge SirLouis MBANEFO :f you cannot meet socially, do you think
that you could havean atmosphere in which you could discuss objectively
any issues on economic matters.
Mr. RATJTENBA : Ifby socially is meant that lvherever the meeting
is the people will be in hotels, visitors to that part, whether it is the
Black or the White part,and they will have the opportunity of dining
together and wining together-1 think that ispart of it. They could dine
together and speak together and visit togethttrand attend the same
opera together-1 envisage that. At leas1drearri that, butismy dream
and 1 do not know what the Prime llinister dreams.
Judge SirLouis MBANEF :Then the answer is that really nobody can
Say yet what would eventualIy evolve from this?
Rlr.RAUTENBACN HO:,it is just a general indicatbut which steps
wili be taken, how longitwill take is not known but that is what is en-
visaged as a visionofthe future.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO SO:that when you çpeak of apartheid being
a programme, a means to an end, you do not realiknow what the end is
going to be?
&Ir. RAUTENBACN HO: we do not know where it is going to end
excepting with this idea-itshould end in a state of justfor al1and to
use the phrase again "poIitical independence and economic inter-
dependence".
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO NOW, one more question, you stated that 45O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"admission to open universities for students from South West Africa
- depended 011the Minister giving consent in lvriting".
h2r.RAUTENBACH :Yes.
Judge Sir Louis ~IBANEPO: Why is it necessary for a Minister to inter-
ferewith admission of students?
Mr. RAUTENBACH: It is his duty under the Act o1959.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO i: hy was it necessary to make that provi-
sion?
Mr. RAUTENBAC AS:1 Say, Mr. President, to put the Act into effect,
to implement the Act he has that duty, that task to do so, to decide
where the students should be placed.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO C:an you give the Court any explanation,
any reason why that is necessary?
Mr. RAVTENBACH :NO,it is the genera! reason lying in the programme
of separation.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO D:on't you think that it is an unwarranted
interference in the independence of a university?
Mr. RAUTENBACH f 1 had been in another country with another
situation, 1would have agreed tothat, but with South Africa, in its own
peculiar situation and in its problems, it toseek a kind of programme
or solution where peaceful CO-existencefrom day to day is more or less
guaranteed.
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFOW : hy wasn't he given the sarne power in
respect of White students?
Mr. RAUTENBACH: 1do not know. The penaIty attached to entrance to
Bantu universities by White students is the same as the oppositeI only
know that, but 1 do not know why particularly he was not given the
power but the implication is,of course, that the White students areby
law excluded . ..Now 1 understand it, White students have al1 the
Bantucollegesso that in certain cases their opportunities shoubeegiven
in the White-the one is more privileged at the present moment than the
other, and the under-privileged has to get his privilege somewhere else.
The one mesure is necessary, the other is not necessary. There is training
in Irfaculties for Ihites and there is trainingin five faculforBantus
at Bantu institutions so that outside of that in the other six faculties,
provision had to be made to enable the RIinister to aliow students to
enter open universitiesi don't knowwhether that answers the question
of the learned judge, Mr. President?
Judge Sir Louis MBANEFO T:hank you.
The PREÇIDENTA : ny further questions, Sir Louis? Does any other
Member of the Court desire to put a question to the witness? (Therebeing
no response thePresidec ntntinued.) There isjust one particular subject-
matter on which 1would like to ask you one or two questions. In answer
to Sir Gerald and also in the course of answering certain questions put to
you by Sir Louis, you spoke about envisaging a federal system aç the
ultimate position which would be reached when the policy of apartheid
had in itself been completely served. In answer to that question, you
ventured an opinion that in the case ofa federal system, there would be
no cornmoncitizenship-is this venturing an opinion of your own or have
you any foundation for so thinking from anything which has been issued
as a matter of poljcy by the Prime Minister or in any other way by the
Government of South Africa?452 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Judge Sir Louis MBAIGEFOl:hat I am getting at is, would the
development of the commonwealth you had in mind be different from
the way theother commonwealth was developed.
Mr. RAUTENBACH Yes, it would be different in this respect, that
within the borders of the one South Africa, geographically you would
have various nations, each one coiniirg to nationhoodThat iss-that
is the difference. In the case of the British Commonwealth, the mother
country is geographically on an island or two (one-and-a-half islands)
and then there is India and others, and Nigeria and other countries
coming in, geographically very separate. In South Africa we aIso have
homelands which, £rom time immemorial, have been the home country
of, let us Say, the Xhosa people, in the Transkeand where 1 was born,
the Bahurutsi people (that is the west of Transvaal) who, when the first
Whites came there, had their country; it later was called the Reservation
and they stiIl hadthat; they have been Iiving and farming there ever
since they came to South Africa, so that in South Africa one has em-
bryonic states, like you have in Europeon the one continentncxt door to
each other. So that you have no guarantee that ifyou have acommon-
wealth from this background, you developin the sarne way asthe British
Commonwealth. No, I have no guarantee and 1 could not express my
idea on that.
The PRESIDEKTA : re there any further questions at al1by any Mernber
of the Court? If not, hlr. Grosskopf, do you desire to put any questions in
re-examination?
Mr. GROSSKOPF Y:es, Sir, Mr. President, just one or two. Professor
Rautenbach, you were asked questions about this publication by the
American Sub-Cornmittee on Africa, of the Cornmittee on Foreign hffairs
of the House of Representatives. 1s that so?
hlr.RAUTENBAC Tha:t is correct, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSSKOPF 1:wonld just like, as a setting of this case for these
questions, to read what questions werput to you by my learned friend,
Mr. Gross, and 1shall read first from the verbatim record at page367,
supra,where he referred to the number of South African students men-
tioned in this book, and the question was then askedifthe presence of
these students: "indicatesa desire on the part of a certain number of
non-White students from South Africa to study abroad." That was the
question, was it not?
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:hat was the question.
Mr. GROSSKOP TF:en, 1 should wish to refer you to page368 of the
same record where you were asked:
"Now, Sir, this table to which 1 have referred,being an official
publication of the Congress of the United States, the House Foreign
Affairs Cornmittee, sets forth that there sixstudents, non-White
or 'African' studentsfrom SouthWest Africa, who are at the present
tirne studyingin the United States."
That was the question put to you, was it?
Mr. UWTENBACHT : hat was the question put to me and the situation
which was sketched to me.
Mr. GROSSKOPF :OW, this morning you expressed the view that this
reportdid not indicatewhether these students were White or non-White,
is that so?
Mr. RAUTEKBACH T:hatis so, Mr.President. After my perusal of the
booklet ... WITNESSES ASD EXPERTS 453
Mr. GROSSKOP 1Fa:mgoing to put this booklet to if may. What
is the title of the booklet appearing on the outside?
Mr. RAUTEXBAC The outside isAfrican Students andStudy Pro-
grammes ijtheUnited States.
hlr.GROSSKOP Fsthe word "African" qualified at al1there?
hlr.RAUTENBA CNHO, the word "African" is not qualified,
Mr.GROSÇKOP WFilYOU look at the map right in the front of the book.
What does that rnap indicatc?
Mr. RAIJTENBAC Th: rnap indicates here where there are certain-
parts coloured in like Spanish Sahara, Angola, South West Africa,
Bechuanaland, Southern Rhodesiaand Mozambique .. .
Mr. GROSSKOP t is a map of Africa?
RIr.RAUTEXBAC It s arecognizable map of Africa.
Rlr.GROSSKOP Fow, the Iegend at the bottom-what do you find
there?
hlr. RAUTENBACH That the various countries are mentionedin
alphabetical order, beginning with Algeria, Angola, BasutoBechu-
analand, Burundi, Cameroon ...
Mr. GROSSKOP 1Fd:onot thinkyou need read them all.
hlr.RAUTENSAC TH:Zambia, including South Africa-theRepublic
of South Africa.
hlr.GRC~SSKOA FFd:in respect of each country, what information is
given?
Mr. RAITTENBAC PoH:ulationand studentsinthe United States.
hlr.GHOSSKOP SFOYOU look at South Africa-whatis the population
figure given?
Mr. RAUTENBAC South Africa, Republic o19x0(1don'tknow what
that means), population 16,640,000; students in the United S390.s
Mr. GROSSKOP NF:W,dealing first withepopulation figure, to your
knowledge does that include ail groups?
hIr. RAIJTENBAC He:, not only from whatisbefore me, but from
what 1 kniriwof people of vanous groups being there.
Rlr.GROSSKOP Looking at South West Africa, what is the population
figure given there?
hfr.RAUTENBAC Ho:ulation 544,000;studentinthe United States6.
hlr.GROSSKOP FO:W,from your knowledge, thepopulation figure
given, does that include IVhites?
Mr. RAIJTENBAC H:s, according to Professor Wellingtoarticle 1
read inOptima,it includes ?Ilhites.
Mr. GROSSKOP Fhis rnorning, you referred to a certain passage at
page 145 cifthat pamphlet. Have you had a look at that passage again?
Mr. RAIJTENBAC EK'e:shave had a look at this passage here.
Mr.GROSSKOP Do:es that deal at al1with tho question of whether the
number of students in the United States from South Afriand South
West Africa are White or non-White?
Mr. RAUTENBAC As:far a1 can make out,ithas no bearjng othat.
Afr. GROSSKOP Fow that was a passage, hIr. Gross said, by a Mr.
Hummel1 of the State Department. Will you look at page152 of that
same publication, where hlr. Hummel1 was asaequestion,or a number
of questions? 1s theranything on that page whjch indicates to you
whether the South African students itheUnited States were al1non-
White?
Mr. RAUTENBACH And here hfr. Fraser asked the following: "You454 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
mentioned earlier we are teaching, or we had here students from South
Africa. Thatiççeparate from the refugee programme.Mr. Hummel said:
"The students from South Africa who were brought here under our
programme are White South African students, chosen and brought to
this country with the concurrence and with the participation of the
South African Government, hir. Fraser."
Mr. GROSSKOPF : do not think you need to continue.any further,
Professor.
Mr. RAUTENBA CAlthough it is possible to bring non-Europeans from
South Africa under this programme, etc....
&Ir.GXOSSKOPF As regards the comment you made this morning that,
as faras you read this pamphlet, it refers both to non-White and White
students. Do you have anything furtherto add to that?
Mr. RAUTENBA C HO, nothing has so far corne forward which has
made me change my mind, namely that it is doubtful whether the
situation skctched some two days ago here tome is not subject to very
senous doubt.
Mr. GROSSKOPFN : OW,Professor, it was suggested to you that the
presence of South African çtudentsin the United States wasindication
of Iackof facilitior lack of quality of facilities in SoAfricaitself.
Will you look at tablI of that document, please? What does that table
indicate?
Mr. RAUTENBAC H :rican students shown in the home countries: 6;
year the study inthe United States began; financial support; academic
status.
Mr. GROÇSKOPFW : ill you tell the Court, are there any students from
Liberia mentioned inthat table?
The PRESIDENTW : hat is the relevance of the question areputting
to the witness, whether there are students from Liberia, Mr. Grosskopf?
Mr. GROSSKOPF :P.President, 1amreally getting to the point whether
any inference can be drawn from these figures?
The PRESIDENT:Any inference?
hlr. GROSSKOPF A:S to the quality of facilities available-tis the
point to whichI am directing this re-examination.
Mr. RAUTENBACH T:he numbers given here-the total studentsfrorn
Liberia is315.
hlr. GROSÇKOPFA : nd, Profesçor,also of most other countries in Africa?
Mr. RAUTENBACH :Yes, there seems to be quite a number of them.
Mr. GROSSKOPFD : OYOU consider thatany inference can be drawn
from those figuresas to the nature of the educational facilities available?
The PRESIDENT:Mr. Gross.
Mr. G~oss: This has to be pursued.1would like to know,ifthe Court
pIeases, to what implications arising out of what question or statIment
made is counsd referring.He has cited none, but has characterizemy
question or statement, as the case rnay be. Secon1donot know what
kind of inference he is talking about, Sir. Inference as to what?
The PRESIDENT M:r. Grosskopf,you are only entitled to re-examine in
relation to a particular matter which was raised iri the cross-examination
of Mr. Gross. \Vhere was anything said by him which would make the
subject-matter of your question one for re-examination?
Mr. GROSSKOPF: If 1 may refer you,Mr. President, to the record at
page 367, supra,where the suggestion is made to the witness that the
presence ofa certain number ofstudents from South Africa would indi- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 455
cate a desire on the part of these students to studyelséwhere than in
South Africa, urith the implication that there was sornething deficient or
lacking in the facilities available in their owncountry, and the only point
I wish to corne to is whether such inference would be a justifiable one.
The PRESIDENT In: other words, an inferencehas got to be drawn,,
so you Say, from something Mr. Gross said, that these men had sought
education inAmericabecause ofa deficiency in education in South West
Africa or the Republic of SouthAfrica, is that the point?
Mr. GROSSKOP Yes, Sir.
The PRESIDENM T:r. Gross.
Mr. G~oss: Mr. President, merely asking a question, it seem to me,
with respect,does dot justify the assumption that an inference is sought
to be drawn; I asked a question for an opinion and an anshverwasgiven,
Sir. I do not believe, Sir, with respect, that it is appropriate for counsel
to suggest thata question 1 ask is intended to carry an inference, It is
an attempt to elicit information for the benefit of the Court, Sir.
The PRESIDENT M:r. Gross,1think it is important from time to time
to determine whether questians are putfor the purposeof asking the
Court subsequently to draw an inference. If you indicate to the Court
that you do not propose task the Court todraw any such inference, then
1 think the matter concludes there, but do you or do you not intend to
found in America, the inference is or may be that it duesto deficiency
of educationalopportunities inthe Territory orin the Republic?
&Ir.GROSSA : t page 367 of the verbatim record under discussion-1
believe, Sirthis iswith respect to your question-1 asked the witness:
"This, you will agree, would you not, indicateiidesire on the part of a
certain number of non-White studentç from South Africa to study
abroad?" 1 was referring, Sir, to a certain number, unspecified. Subse-
quently, on page 369, 1 referred to the "six students, non-White or
African students from South West Africa", and asked:
"Would that fact have any significance in your mind with respect
to the choice ofinstitution availabin South Africa as distinguished
from abroad?"
The only inference that I would respectfully request the Court to draw
would be the validity and the credibilityand the weight to be attached
tothe response given by the witness, and anything else in the mord or
in permissible comment relevant thereto.
The PRESIDENT If:that is so, hlr. Grosskopf, it does not seem to me
that your re-examination isrelevant.
RIr.GROÇSKOPA F: you please, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT Is:that the final question?
Rlr.GROSSKOPT F:at concludes my re-examiiiation, Air. President.
The PRESIDENT W:ell, Professor, you will be released, you wilbe
glad no doubt to hear,'from further attendance, unless you are informed
to the contrary dunng the course of the day; so you are released from
further attendance. Rlr. Grosskopf?
Mr. GROSSKOP hF:. President, the next witness wiUbe hlr. Dahlmann
who, with the Court's leave, will bs introduccd and led by rny learned
friend Mr. Muller.
The PRESIDENT M:r. Muller, I thinwe rnay as weUcal1the witness
now, and have him make whatever declarations you desire him to make.456 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
&Ir.MULLER:As the Court pleases. hlr. President, before the declara-
tion is made, may Iindicate that theevidenc ofXr. Dahlmann concerns
the issues raised under Applicants' Subrnissions Nos. 3 and 4. We have
notified the Applicants that the points to which his evidence will be
directed will be the following: the nature, programmes and activities of,
and the extent ofsupport for, non-White political parties in South West
Africa, the relations between such parties, and the circumstances and
conditions in South West Africa which materially influence politicai
developments amongst the non-White inhabitants of the Temtory. May
I explain, Mr. President, the particular respects in which this evidenceis
regarded as relevant by the Respondent are basically on two main as-
pects?The first is that the witness wili indicate the support which there
is for political parties amongst the indigenous people of South West
Africa, whether that support is on a territorial basis, or whether the
parties are divided on ethnic lines. Secondly the witness will indicate the
connection between sorne of these parties and certain persons at the
United Nations whom we have described in the pleadings already as a
body of professional petitioners. This is relevant, hir. President, when we
corne to deal later on in argument with the so-called law-creating
processes or norm-creating processes referred to by the Applicants, that
is, resoiutions and reports of organs and agents in the United Nations.
We will then submit and argue that to a very great extcnt the resolutions
as well as the reports are based upon or largely influenced by statements
made by this body of political petitioners.We have indicated already Our
treatment of this matter in later argument, and 1 refer the Court in this
regard to the record, X, at page 77 and at pages 83 and 84.
The PRESIDENT M:r. Gross.
hlr.GKOSS The letter to which reference has been made by counsel,
dated 2 October 1965,is as read by him and as reafiirmed in the record.
Sir ,he points to which the evidence of the wiiness içintended to be
directed do not include any reference whatever to connection between
petitioners and United Nations processes, or anything with reference to
law-creating processes (1think the phrase used by counsel) in respect of
the Av~licantç' submissions. The auestion raised bv the A~~licants and
which: Isir, accounts for this inte;vention, isdoubi conceriing the ap-
~ro~riate ~rocedure for the reservation of riphts in connection wit~-the-
iieid of exiertiçe of this witness, the relevancekthpoints to which coun-
sel now asserts that his evidence, or certain of it, will be directed, and
the Applicants' position that the field to which reference has now been
made by counsel, that is to Say, specifically with respect to individual
persons or their relationship with parties or with each other, would in
itself be a question upon which factual statements as a witness rather
than as an expert would be pertinent. I am talking now about whether
references are proposed to be made for good or ill, for purposes of praise
or condemnation-that is irrelevant to my point that with respect to the
protection of individuals from opinion testimony concerning their charac-
ter or their relationship, this would be an area as to which the Applicants
would feel it their duty to reserve full nght to object to testimony being
placed inthe record except on a factual basis with respect to the informa-
tion and knowledge of the witness rather than to any so-calied expert
opinion derivcd from the publication of a newspaper, Si:.
The PRESIDENT: 1 appreciate that, Mr. Gross. 1 think it might be
better if the witness makes the declaration, and then we will receive his WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 457
qualifications, and then the objection might be taken in relation to a
question asked the witneçs which would put in issue the matters which
you have addressed the Court upon.
Mr. GROSS T:hank you, Mr. President. With your indulgenc1merely
wish to assurthe reservation of the position, 1understand, Sir,your
point andwill foIlowit.
The PRESIDENT: 1 understand. Proceed,Mr. Muller.
Mr. MULLER:May 1 also indicate that the witness is Gennan-speaking;
he does speak English, but is not very fluent in that langandeif he
goes rather slowly in answering questions, will the Court please bear
with him? May 1 ask that the witness make both the declarations which
are provided forinthe Statute?
The PRESIDENT: Let the declarationbe maGe.
Mr. DAHLMAN NIn my capacity as a witness 1solemnly declare upon
my honour and conscience that 1 will speak the truth, twhole truth,
and nothirig but the truth.In my capacity as an expert I solemnly
declare upon my honour and conscience that my statement will be in
accordance with my sincere belief.
Mr. MULLER : r. Dahlmann, your full name is Kurt Dahlmann, is that
correct?
Mr. DAHLMANN : That is correct.
Mr. MULLER: What is your occupation?
Mr. DAHLMANI N :m the Editor of the AllgsmeinZeitung in Wind-
hoek.
Mr. MULLER: 1s that a newçpaper circulating in South West Africa?
Mr. DAHLMANNT :hat is a daily newspaper in South West Africa.
The PRESIDENT:1s that published in German?
Mr. DAHLMAN :Published in German.
Mr. MULLER :ince when have you been the Editor of this paper?
blr. DAHLMAN:N 1 am the Editor of this paper since 1960.
Mr. MULLER : ow long have you been in South West Africa?
Mr. DAHLMANNS:ince 1958.
Mr. MULLER:Bid you hold another position with this particular paper
before you became Editor?
Mr. DAHLMANN: Iwas the whole time with this paper.
Mr. MULLER:What are your academic qualifications?
Mr. DAHLMANN: 1have a law degree at Kiel University.
Mr. MULLER:Were you a journalist before you went to South West
Africa in1958?
hlr. DAHLMAN:NYes, that is correct.
Mr. MULLER:Where?
Mr. DAHLMANA Nt:Kiel,at theXieler Nachrichten.
Mr. MULLER:What is your special field of study relative toyour
occupation as the editor of a newspaper?
Mr. DAHLMAX :NPolitics in general, and Africaii trends and movements
of policy, in particular of course in South West -4frica.
Mr. MULLER:Now can you tell the Court, briefly, how you gain your
knowledge of the political activities in the Territory?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:e political leaders of the various organizations use
the newspaper the AllgemeilzeZeitung as their forum for propagating
their ideas. Theytransmit information in connection with their activities
to me personally, they corne my officeor they corne my home; then
1 travel extençively throughout the whole Territory by car and by air,458 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
and 1 have discussions with the leaders of the political parties and also
with the tribal authorities. 1 introduce the political leaders in South
politically interested visitors from abroad with the non-White politicians
in South West Africa. 1 attend the meetings of the different political
organizations whenever it is possible, and 1 study the publications of
these organizations, for example Frsedom,which is published for the
South West African National Union in Cairo, Solidarity, published for
the South West Africa People's Organization in Dar-es-Salaam, South
West Alrica Today, Namib Today, and also irregular publications in
South West Africa, and circulars. I must also mention that i get the
publications from the United Nations in which one finds many state-
ments of the political leaders in South West Africa, and also statements
from the political leaders who are living abroad.
Mr. MULLER : r.Dahlmann, before the adjournment yesterday you
explained to the Court in what manner you gained knowledge of the
political activities of the non-White inhabitants of the Territory. Now,
will you tell the Court whether there are certain factors which influence
the existence of and support for political parties arnongst the indigenous
population of the Territory?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:here are a number of factors, Mr. President. One
has to find one's way between seemingly impossible contradictions, and
without keeping in mind certain basic facts ancl forces it is practically
impossible to understand the attitude, activities and antagonisms which
manifest themselves in the political sphere in South West Africa.
1 would regard the following as the main factors and forces which
interact with or counteract against each other in the political field.
There is:
(1) The existence of the large number of different population groups.
(2) The nature of the traditional and historic political organization of
the groups and the degree of political interest and consciousness on
the part ofthe members of these groups.
(3) The measure of political group identification, finding its expression
in group nationalism.
(4) The factor of Black nationalism or Pan-Africanism.
(5) The measure of economic well-being in the Territory.
Mr. MULLER : ould YOU briefly explain to the Court how these factors
affectthepolitical situation in the Territory?
Mr. DAHLMANT Xh:e factors themselves are not unduly complicated
but the interaction of these factors and others makes the situation in
South West Africa rather confusing, the situation in the field of the
political parties. 1think, MT.President, it is common knowledge that
there are large numbers of different population groups in South West
organization, language, general way of life and level of development.l
1think it is also common knowledge that the vast rnajority of the non-
Whites favour their traditional and historic political organization, and
they are totally unfamiliar and far removed from the system of parlia- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 459
rnentary democracy known in the western world. Traditionally, the
mernbers of the different groups follow the lead of their chief and head-
men. The level of real political interest is very low.
The thii-d factor 1 mentioned, the group loyalty, is a very important
one. The loyalty of the vast rnajority centres on their individual popula-
tion groups. There is not only a tribal loyalty. Sorne of these population
groups consist of a plurality of tribeç and they can be regarded rather as
a nation. There is a desire to active self-determination within the frame-
work of such groups.
Another factor is, as I rnentioned, the Black nationalism in Africa.
That is, of course, a force behind certain political movements in South
West Africa. The central idea is, Afnca for the Africans. The leaders of
certain political organizations in South West Africa who are living abroad
are trying to import these ideas to South West Africa.
Another important factor is the econornic weI1-being or economic
stress. Econornic stress leads tolitical dissatisfaction with the govern-
ment in power, and economic well-being leads to satisfaction with the
government, and in South West Africa we experience prolonged periods
of drought-they are not unusual-and during these periods the dis-
satisfaction with the government might increase; and during these times
people have an open ear forpoliticians who promise them a better and
easier life, or even golden days.
tioned. are certain explanations of the five factors which 1 have men-
Mr. MULLER:When you arrived in South West Africa in r958, Mr.
Dahlrnann, were there any non-White political parties existing in the
Territory?
Mr. DAFILMAN IN:1g58, Mr. President, there was no real political
party in South West Africa in existence. The political matters were dealt
with and (liscussed by the traditional tribalaiithorities. Only in 1959
were the first political parties organized.
Mr. MULLER :Will YOU briefly indicate to the Court under what circum-
stances the first non-White political parties were formed in South West
Africa?
Mr. DAHLMANT Nh:e first political parties were formed mainlas a
result of instigatioby certain petitioners at the United Nations. One of
the prime movers was Eric William Getzen, also known as hlburumba
Kerina. He left South West Africa in 1953 under his narneEric Wiiliarn
Getzen, and he has appeared since 1956 regularly asa petitioner before
the United Nations.
Kenna feltthat in order to strengthen hi.. .
The PRESIRENTM : r. Gross.
Mr. GROSSM : r. President, 1 respectfully objcct to the testimony con-
cerning what MT. Kerina felt unless, Sir, theri: is some basis laid for
persona1 knowledge, and I wouId respectfully rcquest the right to fiie a
general objection to any similar comment concerning thestate of mind
of any individual, Sir.
The PRESIDENT M:r. Muller.
indicate to the Court how he cornes to know of the part played bytes
blr. Kerina in the formation of these parties. He will refer to documents
wntten by hlr.Kerina, documents which are public kno\vledgeand docu-
ments which have been admitted by the Applicants.460 SOUTH WEST AFRICX
The PRESIDEXT Yes, Mr. Gross.
Mr. GROSS:Mr. President, 1 believe, Sir, that this woüld be the
necessary foundation forthe opinion evidence uphichis proferred, andI
would respectfully request that if theisinformation within the know-
ledge of the witness, that the witness be requested to state the basis of
the information as well as the information itself.
The PRESTDENT P:ellMr. Gross, sornetirneit is noeasy to estabiish
the knowledge of the witness in relation to each factual position before-
hand in the presentation of the casIfcounsel says that he will connect
it up then, normally, the Court accepts the statement that he wiii do so.
But 1will suggest to hlr. hluiier that if he can establish the factual basis
first before the witness seeks to depose, that would be perhaps the better
course to pursue.Mr. Nuller.
MT. MULLER :s the Coiiri.pleases1will do so.
hlr. GROSS:Thank you, Mr. President.
hlr.MULLER : r. Dahlmann, you have indicated that the formation
of thefirst non-White political party was brought about by instigations
from people in America, and you mentioned the name Kerina. How do
you come to know of the facts stated by you?
Mr. DAHLMAKN M:r. President, that came out during the Sitting of
the Commission of Inquiryintothe occurrences iri the Windhoek location
on the night of Io-Ir December 1959.1 was present at that Inquiry.A
number of letters written by Kerina and other pctitioners at the United
Nations to their associates in South West Africa were handed in as ex-
hibits. The letters were read and the contents niade public. The letterç
were referred to by the Chairrnan of the Commission of Inquiry, Mr.
Justice Hall,inhis report. Then again part of the letters are also quoted
in the report.
The PRESIDENT B:irGross.
Mr. GROSS: Mr. President, the letters in question are indeed in the
record. They are, among other things, contained in a document which
ha been filed by the Applicants, the 1960 Report of theCornmitteeon
South West Africa. The Applicants would rcspectfully request the
honourable President to establish, or permithe Applicants to establish,
whether the Respondent has persona1knowledge of the letters, thectuai
source, whefher wrjtten by Kerina or written by somebody else, the cir-
cumstances under which they came into the hands ofthe Commission of
Inquiry, and any other relevant circumstances, ratherthan having the
witness read into the record or refer to what is dready in the documenta-
tion, that is the Commission of Inquiry report which contains reference
to certain letters purportedly writteby Mr. Kerina, who himself was
not present, Sir.
The PRESIDENT M:r. Gross, there is a large amount of evidence which
has been introduced into this case which is evidence the reliability of
which depends upon circumstances. Normally, of course, in amunicipal
court the objection which you take would be well-founded. This Court is
not bound by the strict rules of evidence applicable in municipal courts
and if the evidenceestablisheby the witness does not sufficiently convey
to the Court a moral certainty that the evidence is reliabin point of
fact, then the Courtofcourse,deals with it accordingly when it cornes to
its deliberations.
1 think the better course is ta note your objection and for Mr. Muller
to proceed, and then the Court will determine later on, if necessary, on EVITNESSES ASD EXPERTS
461
further objection; whether the witness is competent to speak to the facts
to which he deposes.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. Thank you, Mr. President.
Mr. MULLER M:ay 1, atthis stage, explain that the witness has copies
of these letters, and he has studied them. He wiii indicate to the Court
how certain instructionsin those letters were carried o1tthink that,
with respcct,Mr. President, the witness will be entitled to say what the
instructions were in the letters which arebefore the Court and have been
admitted, for the purpose of indicating how those instructions were
carried out, or otherwise. With respecMr. President,1 could indicate
to the witnesswhat the instructions in those letters were because they
have been admitted, and the witness could theii reply.
The PRIIÇIDENT :rr. Muller, you must take your own course. At the
moment, there isno limitation placcd upon your right to put your ques-
tion to the witness. 1 have indicated &Ir.Gross, the approach that is
made by this Court generally to evidence and, if you fail to itup,ct
then it will mean that the valuofthe witness's evidence may fa11to ni1
or fa11to little.
Mr. MULLER1 : just thought, Mr. President, that it wmy duty to
explain to the Court how 1am going to proceed from now.
The PRIIÇIDENT 1understand.
hlr. MULLER : r. Dahlmann, you have in your possession copies of
the letters to which you have referred, have you not, Sir?
hlr.DAWLMAN N :s, that is correct, MT.President.
blr. RIULLER :OW,will you indicate whether instructions were con-
tained in the Ietters with regard to the formation of the specific political
parties in South West Africa?
Mr.DAHLMAN Nhere were instructions given mainly by Kerina and
also by another pctitioner, but mainly by Kerina. Kerina urged Toivo
to form the Ovamboland People's Congress at the beginning o1959 . n
14 February 1959 he wrote a letter to Toivo in Ovamboland. Toivo is an
Ovarnbo. 1 know him perçonally. He jsa sliop-o~vnerand js living in the
vicinity of Ondangua. On 14 February 1959, Kerina wrote to Toivo:
"Please Toiva, dothis,organize an OVAMBOLAND PEOPLE'S
CONGRESS, make al1 the Chiefs of varioiis tribes the Vice-Presi-
dents. In other words make them First Vice-President, Second Vice-
President, Third Vice-President, etc., etc., etc., this will break the
inter-tribal rivalry that mayorne about."
Mr. GRCISS M:r. President, the only referenctoa letter which has
been made (this issimply for the information of the Court, in principle,
witness may be able to supply sorne other basis) in the Commission of
Enquiry report, is at pa61 of the1960 ReflorO/ IheCornmitteon South
West Atricn, General Assembly Document, 15th Session, Supplement
No. 12,AI.1464.The text of the letter, from whi1hbelieve, the witness
is reading,f1 understood him correctly, does not contain the language
which he lias just quoted, which is apparently ia portion that is in-
dicated hereby three dots.It would beappreciated,Sir ,fthePresident
would be gracious enough to request the witnecs or counsel to indicate
the source of the text which has been read, since it is not available to the
counsel.
The PRESIDENT M:r. Mullerthisis one of thdocuments to ulhicyou
referred on 4 October, is it not?462 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. MULLER Ires,
The PRESIDENA Tt: the moment, 1haven't that document and 1 do
not think any hlember ofthe Court ha that document.
hlr. MULLERI: can assist the Court, Mr. Preside.. .
The PRESIDENT:For the purpose of understanding the objections
raised, 1would be very glad if a document could be handed to me.
Mr. MULLER: These documents are before the Court and they are
referred to, and quotations given, in the Counter-Mernorial (IV). If I
may assist the Court with regard to this particular letter, it is referred to
in the Counter-Rlemorial, IV, at page 40.
The PRESIDENTT : hank you very much.
Mr. GROSSh : lr. Presiden1thank counsel; this is the source 1hhad
overlooked.
The PRESIDENW T:ould you proceed, hlr. Dahlmann, please?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President, 1 continue to quote from this letter:
"He the General-Secretary of the Congress.Be very shrewd. Work
with the nominated Chiefsvery carefully. Pretend asif you are with
them. But also take into serious account the other promising young
people and EIders and please rnakeFather Hamtumbangela the
President of the Congress. The first task of the Congressshould be a
petition to the Prime hlinister of South Africa with copies to the
Windhoek Advertiser, New Age, United Nations, Cape Times, and
a copy to me, the American Cornmittee on Africa, Africa Weekly,
Rev. M. Scott, etc. This petition should askfour things. Of course a
things should be asfollows: Ask fortive Commissioner. These four
(a) Direct African and Coloured People representation in the
Government of South West Africa.
(b) Introduction ofuniversal suffrainSouth West Africa irrespec-
tive of Colour, Creed, Refgion and National Origin.
(c) in the Parliament of South Africa.t African Representation
(d) Immcdiate placing of South West Africa under the United
Nations Trusteeship System.
Toivo,1 urge you not to accept part of these demands. Tell the
Prime Miniçter of South Africa thyou ~vaiita1four to begranted
and no compromise whatever."
Mr. MULLERN : OW,hlr. Dahlmann, you can stop there. Will you tell
the Court whether the Organization referred to that iettwas, in fact,
forrned and, if so, when?
Mr. DAHLMAN~T ;:his Organization was formed in April1959 under
the name "Ovamboland People's Organization".
Mr. MULLER W: hat was the Organization referred to by abbreviations?
Mr.DAHLMANO N:O.
Mr. MULLERW : ho were the principal figureinthis Organization?
Mr. DAHLMAN NSam Nujorna, an Ovambo living in Windhoek, became
Organization exists now under a different name. Jacob Kuhangua is also
a very prominent leader within this Organizatiowho is living abroad;
Herman Toivo, also a prorninent politician with this Organization living
in Ovamboland, and Mburumba Kerina was the Chairman of this
Organization until 1962. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 463
Mr. MULLER :id Kerina, in the letters which you have with you,
indicate uhat his objectives were in having an organization of this nature
formed?
Mr.DAHLMANN M r. President, from his letters it is clear that Kerina
wanted Afncan rule for South West Africa, no multi-racialism and no
partnership.
Mr. G~oss:This expression of opinion is entirely unfounded. The lettei-
read by the witness refers to introduction of universal suffrage in South
West Africa, irrespective of colour, creed, religion and national origin.
This is a purely spontaneous,unsupporteallegation made by the witness
and it would clearly be beÿond the range of any expertiçe.
Air.MULLER : y question to the witness waswhether in the letters-1
did not referto the particular on1.was going to deal, as 1 have indi-
cated, with another letter in which this will coIne out. If asknthe
witness-1 was going task him to indicate the letter in which a particu-
lar passage indicates what he has said now.
The PRESIDEW T:r. Mullerifyou undertakc to the.Court to connect
it up with a letter on each occasion which supports the statement made
by the witness,1 think you may proceed.
Mr. MULLER : sthe Court pleases. Having indicated the objectives of
Kerina, will you state in which particular letter you find any evidence
to it?
hlr.DAIILMAN :On 4 March 1959.
The PRISSIDEN T:ill you look again? '
hZr.DAHLMANN I:is5 March. 1am sorry.
The PRICSIWEN IT :ou could, aYOU proceed, give a reference to the
Counter-Memurial, it would...
Mr. MULLER: 1 can do this straightaway.Irefer, at this moment, to
the Counter-Mernorial,IV, at page39. The letterisquoted in the first
half of the page.
Mr. DAHLMANN: On 5 March 1959, Kerina wrote to Muundjwa.
hluundjwa is an Herero, aIso a prominent politician, living in Windhoek:
"Let the stupid Africans and Coloured agitators asKloppers,
etc., etc. encouraged by deceptive Imite settlers stop preaching
multi-racial or partnership in South West Africa at the expeofe
the African people. We have had enough of these nonsense. Our
position should be made clear to the \hiteWe want South West
Africa.back no more no less."
iMr.MUI.LER D:id Kerina, in any of the letters, indicate what should
be done with regard to petitioto the United Nations?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President, in some of his letters, Kerina urged
fora combined action to strengthen his position at the UniNations.
He urged his associates in South West Africa to send petitionç the
United Nations and he indicated that he was prepared to draft them for
them.
Mr. MUI-LER W:ill you refer to letters beforc you in which such in-
structionsor suggestions were made;1think the first letisone dated
14 Febmary 1g5g?1 may indicate to the Court that that is referred to,
and portions quoted from,inthe Counter-Memorial, IV,page 40.
Mr. DAHLMANN T:ere is a letter written by Kerina to Toivo:
"Please remernber Toivo, 1wvillplay this up here at thU.N.0.
But to make it effective, the Congress [that means the Ovamboland WITNESSES AXD EXPERTS 465
hlr. MULLER:Before you read 1will indicate to the Court the letter is
referred to and extracts quoted in the Counter-MernorialIV, page 43.
blr.DAHLMAN :N
"Several hundred petitions shauld flood thU.N. immediately!!!
We leave the rest to you-please also inform the people at Walvis
Bay tri follow this same coursAs many petitionsas possible should
be despatched to U.N. as soon as possible..."
Mr. MULLER M:r. Dahlmann, Ishall deal Iater with the nature of the
petitions which were in fact sent, but wiii you at this stage indicate
whether Kerina and his associates at the United Nations also urged
further or other actioto be taken by people in South West Africa?
Mr. DAHLMANN :n a number of other lettersthe petitioners at the
United Nations urged for further action; for exarnple, public demon-
strations should be organized and the South African Government should
be defied.
Mr. MULLER:Will you refer to the letters which you have, and indicate
to the Court where you find what you have just told the Court in passages
in the letters?
Mr. DAHLMANN I:have a letter before me written by Kerina to Mr.
Sam Nujorna dated 25 Scptember 1959.
Mr. MULLER: Mr. President, that letter is referred in the same
volume of the Counter-hlemorial, at page42.
Mr. DAHLMANN":MC. Nujoma, continue to attack the Government
openly in public. Do not stop." And in the same letter: "Also try to
organize Mas Public Meetings every Saturday."
Mr.MULLER:1s any further action suggested?
4Ir. DAHL~IANN Th:ere are also further actions suggested. On 14
February 1959 Kerina writes to Toivo in Ovamboland:
"Just tell oupeople inOvamboland to keep together and not to
say anything. If those nominated Chiefs Say a word tell our people
to burn their places at night secretly of course."
Mr. MULLER:Mr. President, that letter is in the same volume of the
Counter-Memorial, at IV,pages 40-41.
Mi- . AHLMANNI:n another letter dated 21 April 1959 Kerina writes
to Toivo ...
Mr. MULLER:Mr. President, may 1 indicate before the witness reads,
in the samr: volume of the Counter-Memorial, aIV, page 4r.
hlr, DAHLMANN ":DO not talknin public,talkbehind the scenes. Be-
friend those nominated Chiefs, pretend as if you like them." Now 1have
another letter written by Jariretundu Kozonguizi. Kozonguizi is the
President of the South West Africa National Union. On 14 September
1959 Kozonguizi writes to Sam Nujoma . . .
hlr. MULLER: Mr. President, rnay1 indicate, the same volume of the
Counter-Mernorial, atIV, page 44.
Mr. DAHLMAN :N
"Please try to organize people at home:
(1) Against theRemoval to the Location;
(2) Hold a big S.W.A. Day to coincide with Our petitioning the
U. Nations."
And again Kerina, on25 September 1959 mites to Nujorna . .466 SOUTH WEST AFRIC.4
Mr. Mur-TXR M:r. President, that letter is referred to and portions
quoted in the same volume of the Counter-Memonal, IV, at page 42. "
Mr. DAHLMA NN
"Refuse to move tothe new location. Tell the people not to move.
1 will send you a statement which. you should read to them and
translate it into Ovambo, Herero, Nama, etc."
And on 17 October 1959 Kerina writes.again'to Sam Nujorna ...
Mr. MULLER M:r. President, at page 43.
hlr.DAHL~IAN "D:O not move from the lo'cation.Refuse completely."
Mr. MULLER >:Ir. Dahlmann, can you tell the Court whether to your
knowledge trouble eventually did arise with regard .to the proposed
removal from the old location at Windhoek to the Katutura Township?
Mr.DAHLMANN Y:es, trouble did arise. The inhabitants of the location
in Windhoek created adisturbance which gave rise to a riot on the night
of 10-11 December 1959.
Mr. MULLER A:s a result of the riots, waa commission of enquiry
appointed?
Mr.DAHLMANY Ne:s, that is cqrrect.
Mr.MULLER C:an you tell the Court what the findofgthe commission
was with regard to the riots? .
Mr.DAHLMAN 1Nh:avegot the report here. In paragraph 26the report
says :
"The,letters from which quotations are set out in paragraph 24
forh only a small part ofthe letters and documents which camefrom
New York to South West Africa, andmany ofthe exhibits are in the
same strain. It is cIear that the occurrences in the location on the
night of10-11December must be viewed in the Iight of ttiese letters.
Kerina, or Getzen, by which name he is better known in South
Africa; had always been closely connected with the Keverend
. Michael Scott and the other people and societies whose aim and
object it is to ensure that the control over South West Africa shauld
be taken out ofthe Union's hands. It would appear that Kerjna jç
the mouth- iece of these people. It appearsfrom the letters to Toivo
that iwas \ is advice which led to the formation of the O.P.O. [that
is, the Ovamboland People's Organization]. He repeatedly incited
the office-bearers of both these political organizations'to defy the
Union Government and to oppose the removal of the Windhoek
location. He suggest'edto the O.P.O. that it should petition Russia !
submit to United Nations dernands. From Septemberarms to1959e he
. continually urged the leaders of the Native population in South
lest Africato oppose in every possibIe way any attempt to remove
people from the old location to Katutura."
Andin paragraph 27:
"To rny mind these letters prove that the opposition to the
removal from the existing location to the new onewas organized by
the Hereros in Windhoek at the instigationof their protagonists in
New York. The passages which 1 have quoted from these letters
urged repeatedly that opposition to the removal was to be made a
cardinal point-in the carnpaign of resistance which was to be set on
foot. The letters establish too that the opposition to the location WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 467
removal must be maintained with the objttct of strengthening the
hands of those who were endeavouring to achieve their political aims
through the intervention of the United Nations. It was for this latter
purpose that the Administration of South West Africa was to be
forced to use violence and to shed Africal~lood."
Mr. MULLER : r. Dahlmann, to get back to theovamboland People's
Organization, the OPO, asyou have called it, wliat was the membership
of that organization at the the, that iin1g5g?
Mr. DAHLMANN I:itially this organization enjoyed very limited sup-
port. This organization was alrnost unknown at that time in Ovambo-
land. 1-was created in ih'indhoek and spread to Walvis Bay.
Mr. ~~ULLEK :Does this party or organization still e7ist
hlr. DAHLMANN N:o,itdoes not exist any more under that name. The
narne ha been changed to South West Africa People's Organization.
hfr. MULLERH : OWdid it corneabout that the riameof the organization
was changed?
Mr.DAHLMANN A:gain, Kerina was well acquainted with the situation
in South M'estAfrica-he could not expect that, to give an example, the
Hereros would support an Ovamboland people's congress or an Ovarn-
boland people's organization. He realized taanumber oforganizations
had to be formed for the different population groups. On the other hand,
he was obviously interested not to give the impression abroad that these
organizations were formed on a tribal basis.
Mr. GROSS1:wonder if the witness could give the source of the opinion
concerning Mr. Kerina's state of mind?
Mr.MULLER : have already undertaken that the witness willgive that
and he will proceed to do so immediately.
The PRESIDENT V:ery well. Proceed Mr. Muller.
blr. MULLERW : ilI you complete your answer Mr. Dahlmann, 1 do not
know whether you have completed it.
Mr. DAHLMANN: No, Mr. President, not yet. He was obviously inter- ,
ested not to give the impression abroad that these organizations were
formed on a tribal basis. He therefore urged associates in South-Iftest
Africa:(1)to form a Herero party under the leadership of Hosea Kutako;
(2) that the narne of the Ovamboland Peoples Organization should be
changed.
Mr. MULLERN : OWwill you indicate to the Court where you find that
in the letters which you have before you?
Mr. DAHLL~AN M ay 1 refer to the letters concerned-iis again the .
letter written by Kerinaon 5 March 1959 to Muundjwa in Windhoek.
Mr. MULLER:Mr. President, may I comect thatwith thc Counter-
Memorial, IV, page 39, it is to Mr. John hluundjwa in Windhoek:
Mr. DAHLMANN:
"John, please help to organize an African !National Congress in
South West Africa which should be represent of al1 the tribes of
the country. In order to break the tribalistic elemeiitiscoming
to South West Africa, first, make Chief Kutako the President, and
then the rest of the other Chiefs from other tribes should bccome:
First 'vice-President, Second Vice-President, Third Vice-President,
etc.,etc."
Mr. GROSS:MT.President.
The PRESIDENTY : es, Mr. Gross.468 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. G~oss: 1beg the Court's indulgence but 1 have tried to follow the
letter on page 39 of the Counter-MemonaI and regret to Say 1 do not
find the language just quoted. Did 1misunderstand the page number?
The PRESIDENT 1 expect the explanaiion is that the extract on 39ge
is not the full letter but what is the position, Mr. Muller?
Mr. MULLER:That iscorrect, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT:Of course, it does connect up with certain parts of it,
Mr. Gross.
Mr. GROSS:Yes Sir, it does. 1 just did not know...
Mr. MULLER:The witness isquoting from the letter itself.
Mr. GROSS :nd that isin evidence is itMr. President?
Rlr, RIULLERT : he whole letter has been handecl in and the whole letter
has been admitted.
AlrGROSS :hank you, Sir.
RfrMULLER:Would you proceed please, hlr. Dahlmann.
blrDAHLMAX : N
"If we must have our freedom we rnust be strong and be well-
organized, the Whites in South iVest Africa are in constant fear
because of what is happening inother parts of Africa.Thcy know
that South West Africaisnext . . .Look athe MauMau today,they
are represented in the Government and soon they will govern their
own country." (IV,p. 39.)
Mr.~~ULLER: Have you any other letters in which the suggestion you
mentioned earlier, the question of changing the names of parties, is
mentioned?
hlrDAHLMANN I: regard to the Ovamboland People's Organization,
Kerina writes to Nujoma, President of the said Organization, on 16
Septernber 1959.
Mr, MULLER: May 1 mention the same volume of the Counter-3lemo-
rial,page 42.
Mr. DAHLMAN N
"After careful and thoughtful consideration of our situation 1
think itisadvisable foryou Mr. Nuyoma and your friends to think
about the possibility of turning your organization inafull fledge
national organization representing everydy in the whole territory.
1further suggest that it would be to our advantage if you can change
thename of the Ovamboland People's Organisation to THE SOUTH
WEST AFRICANNATIONALCONGRESS.This cantnaa?a thatweia
who are rejbresentiyou nttheUnitedNations now havepowerbehind
us.It was very good to start witha regional organizationbut now
your tactics should be geared to the achievement of something grea-
ter forSouth West Africans. OiherAfrican states would szl$port us
stronglyif we canhavesrcchanationalorgaltizationPlease do inform
the United Nations ifyou change the name of the present organiza-
tion tothat of South IfTestAfncan National Congress, this ivery
important for Our position here.I am sendilsg you utzder separate
covera copyof a constitutionjor the Corzgrethat 1 have proposed
and a rnanifesto to be distributed widely if you approve of the idea."
And then Kerina writes to Toivo on 17November 1959.
Mr. MULLER: At page 43, Mt. President.
Mr. DAHLMAN :N WITNEÇSES AXD EXPERTS 469
"Toivo, listen. 1 have been urging Mr. Nujoma to change the
name of the Ovarnboland People's Organization into theSortthWest
African National Congress.This will give the organization a national
character which can be of grcat use to our position herIhave also
drawn up a draft constitutionfohim for this purposeHe informed
me recently that this Congress wibe formed next year. Would you
pleaseget in touch with him and tell liim that he should try to see
thatyou Toivo or Him be the president.Or one of you the Presiclent
and a I-IereroaVice-President etc. You see what 1 want to say is
that dinot allowtheOP0 when ilischanged into South WestAfrican
Nation.alCongressto be dominated by othergroups. Be very careful
about this very much. But please even if other groups do not want
to CO-operatwith the OP0 to form the Congress justgo ahead and
change the OP0 to the new Congress. Please mite or talk to ilfr.
Nujoma aboutthis and keep it very secret do not tell any one of this
idea it should just between you two."(IV, p. 43.)
Mr. ~~ULLER: Now after these suggestions were made was the name of
the OP0 changed?
Mr. DAHLMANNY : es, Mr. President, thais correct. The name was
changed in June 1960.
Mr. MULLER:What is the new name of that organization?
Mr. DAHLMANN: The new name is-South West Africa People's Orga-
nization.
Rlr. MULLER:1sit very often referred to in an abbreviated form?
Mr. DAHLMANN :SWAPO.
Mr. MULLER:Now, did anp other non-Imite organizations corne into
existence after these two that you have just referred to, orthe one which
had its narne changed?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:es, Mr. President. A large number of other organiza-
tions were formed.SWAPO could not hope to attract wide support from
other population groups, itas an Ovarnboorganization. Group identifi-
cation was and isstrongin South West Africa and as was clear from the
last letters quoted, it was also the intention to keep the South West
Africa Peol~le'sOrganization under Ovambo control. Other parties were
therefore formed on a tribal bais to seek the siipporof the respective
non-White population groups. Later attempts to achieve unity led to the
creation ofa number of further organizations.
Mr. MULLER:Will YOU, MF.Dahlmann, mention the different political
organizations and tell the Court, when you mention the name, what the
abbreviation is of the party to which you refer? Just name them first
of al].
Mr. DAHLMANNT :he following are the political organizationwhich
came into being, directly associated with oropposed to the carnpaign
against the Government: (1)Ovamboland People's Organization, OP0
(already rnentioned); (2) South West rifrica Peoples Organization,
SWAPO (alreadyrnentioned);(3)The South \ZTestAfrica National Union,
SFVANU;(4) the so-called Chiefs Councii-theChiefs Council 1must Say
had existed before as the Counciof Hosea ICutako but 1 think one must
mention this Council in this connection becauseit isa driving force on
the politicaI field in South West Africa; (5) The South West Africa
United National Independencc Organization, SWAUNIO; (6) The
South West Africa Democratic Union, SWADU; (7) The Caprivi African
National Union, CANU; (8) The Damars Tribal Esecutive Committee,47O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
no abbreviation; (9) The South West African Coloured Organization,
SWACO; (IO)Die Volkçorganisasie van Suid-West Afrika; (II)The
Burghers' Association-thisorganization is a seni-political organization,
it existed also before59.
Mr. ~~ULLER: 1 am sorry, are you going to explain further?
Alr.DAHLMANN Ye:s. This organization, Mr. President, is limited to
the Rehoboth Gebiet.
The PRESIDENT Th:is is the Burghers' Organization?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:he Burghers' Association. (12)The South West
Africa National Liberaiion Front, SWANLF; (r3)The National Con-
vention Independence Party, NAEIP; (14) The United Namib Inde-
pendence People's Party, UNIPP; (15)The National Unity Democratic
Organization, NUDO.
Mr. MULLER N:OWexcept for the Chiefs CounciI, referred to amongst
the Hereros and the Uurghers' Association, were of1the others formed
after 1g5g?
hIr. DAHLMXNH A:l1the other ones were formed after 1959.
&Ir.MULLER N:OW,1 want you to deal very briefiy with each one of
these parties to indicate whom they represent, whether they are still in
existence and what theiraims are.
hlr. DAHLMANN: Mr. President,1 have already mentioned SWAPO
and the purposes for which it was created. In softhe change of name,
it remains an Ovambo organization. 1961-196 itgained a foothold in
Ovamboland. At that time, the whole territory experienced a long period
of drought and in 1962SWAPO was at its strongest in Ovarnboland.
However, the vat majority of the Ovarnbos followed the traditional
chiefs and headmen who never supported SWAPO. Since 1962,the mem-
bershipof SIVAPOis decreasing, 1 think one of the main reaçons is the
economic well-king in Ovarnboiand and general progress in the whole
t emtory.
The chiefs and headmen inOvamboland support, more or less, the
Government.The chiefs and headmen even asked for the implementation
of the political paofthe Odendaal Plan. A number of chiefs and head-
men toured the Republic and the Transkei at the beginning of this year
and they came back very enthusiastic about what they had seen. The
result of this trip to the Republic was that, only a few weeks a145
teachers, ministers and nurses of the Kuanyama tribe wrote to the Prime
Minister of South West Africa and indicated that they were highly
interested in a similar tour to the Republic of South Africa. 1 might
mention here that the Kuanyama tribe is the biggest tribe in Ovambo-
land.
Under these circumstanceç the support for the South West Africa
widespread.ganization has weakened and the support for the chiefs is
Mr. MULLER M:r. Dahlmann, would you deal next with the Chiefs
Council ofthe Herero, that was the fourth on your list?
Mr. DAHLMANhN lr:. President, the Chiefs Council is an undoubtedly
very important political organization within South West Africa. Gener-
ally speaking, the Herero, constitut8npercent. of the total population
of South West Africa, can be regarded as a separate nation. They cal1
themselves also the Herero nation.Their traditional political system
centresaround their headmen. Their tribal tradition and the discipline
are very strong. The majonty of headmen follo~ Hosea Kutako, who WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 47I
can be regarded, 1have said already, as a leader of the Herero nation,
although tiiere are someheadrnen who are in opposition to Hosea Kutako
and who have their own supporters.
The so-called Chiefs Council of Wosea ICutako is the strongest non-
White anti-government g~oupin South West Afiica. The most outstand-
ing personalities in this Couas 1mentioned already, aMr. Kapuuo,
the right hand of Hosea Kutako, and thReverend Kanaera, whom I
regard as the chief idealogist of the Chiefs Council.
The Chiefs Councilis striving primarily for a greater role for the
Herero nation. The fact of group nationalism arnong the Hereros is
paramount. They claim the central part of South West Africa for thern-
selves and they are trying to undermine the Government whenever and
wherever it is possible. They are mainly responsible for the internai
campaign aggainstthe GovernmentThey have transmitted a large'nurn-
ber of petitions to the United Nations and hlichael Scott, hlbururnba
Kerina and Kozonguizi appeared before the United Xations as petitioners
fortheChiefs Council of Hosea Kutako.
Afr.MULLER : ext, will you please deal briefly with the South West
Africa National Union, the abbreviation being SWANU?
hlr. DAHLMAU Nhe South West Africa National Union was supposed
to serve the same purposas the Ovamboland People's Organization or
SWAPO. Itwassupposed to be the political party of the Hereros. It was
formed in September 1959. Clemens Kapuuo presided at theinaugurai
meeting,which took pIace in Septembe1959at the location in Windhoek
and Kozonguizi was elected President. \vasa petitioner together with
Kerina at the United Nations. The President of the OvamboIand People's
Organization became a cornmittee rnember of the South West Africa
National Union nt this inaugural meetinSWANU could possiblhave
gained substantial supporamongst the Herero if it had retained the
backing of Hosea Kutako and the Chiefs Council, but Kozonguizi's ideai
did not coincide with the views of the Chiefs Council. Kozonguizi was
dedicated to a militant African socialism, he was opposed to the tradi-
tional tribal system andoup 1oyaIties. Withafew rnonths' time after
the ueation of SWA a tota's^l^toccurred between the SLVANU
leThertribal discipline mongstlie Hereros is very strong. TChiefs
Council retained the support of the majority of headmen and, due to this
tribal discipline, the support of the majority of the Herero nation.
SWANU czcrriedon aa small groupwithstrong and vociferous leader-
ship overseas but very littleuIar support. It is the only non-White
politjcal partj~ in South West Africa which, in truth, jsopposed to tribal
loyalties andSMTANU propa ates militantrevolution and pan-African
ideas. Its support in South dest Afriea is numerically negligible.
Mr. MULLER :he next party mentionedby you was the South West
Africa United National IndependencOrganization-SLVAUNIO, as you
referred to it in abbreviatiWould you kindly deal with that very
shortly?
Mr.DAHLIIIA :SWAUNIO, the South West Africa United National
Independence Organization, was created to advarice the campaign during
the years1960 and 1961against the Government and iwas intended to
get the support of theama. It has not succeeded in gaining any reaI
support and itisat present inactive. One can s;iy that the influence of
SWAUNIO on thepolitical field of South West dfrica is negligible. The472 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Reverend Markus Kooper appeared before the United Nations as the
petitioner ofWAUNIO.
Mr. MULLER: Would you kindly next deal with the South West Africa
Democratic Union-SWADU?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:he South West Africa Democratic Union was also
created to advance the anti-Government carnpaign, but this was an
organization among the Damara people in the north of the Temtory. It
had, and still has insignificant support and membership. This organiza-
tion is politically completely inactive.
Mr. MULLER 1 did not quite understand. You Say that this organiza-
tion was intended for the Dama population?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:hat is correct. For tDarnara people.
hfr. MULLERY : OUalso mention the Caprivi African National Union-
CANU. Would you kindly indicate what association that is?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:he Caprivi African National Union was formed in
1963 in the Eastern Caprivi, It rvas, as prominent members confirm,
influenced from across the border by Zarnbia. A strong attempt was made
from the other side of the border to support the Caprivi African National
Union by means of intimidation and boycotts. At present, the Caprivi
African National Union enjoys very little support. The people in Eastern
Caprivi, belonging to two different tribes, more ors follow the tra-
ditional chiefs so the party is completely inactive.
Mr. MULLERYNT: es. Will you kindly explain? You referred to "boy-
cotts". Rrouldyou kindly indicat te the Court against ivhom those
boycotts were?
hlr. DAHLMAKN T:ere is only the Zambesi between Zambia and the
Eastern Caprivi. The people cross the Zambesi and the people from
South West Africa, from the Caprivi strip, sel1cattle and other goods in
Zarnbia. The people in Zambia indicated that they were only prepared
to accept these goods from South West Africa if the people from the
Eastern Caprivi strip could produce their CANU membership cards.
Mr. MULLER Y:OUalso mentioned the Damara Tribal Executive Com-
mjttee. Would yon kindIy deal with that?
Mr. DAHLMANP T:e Damara Tribal Executive Committee is, as the
name indicates, a tribal organization. It is prirnarily concerned with the
attempt to consolidate the Damara people. Due to !historie reasons, the
tribal discipline amongst the Damaras is very weak. The vast majority
of the Damaras show very little interinpolitical matters. There is not
much CO-ordinationbetween the different groups. There are a number of
headmen and one chief. The Damara Tribal Executive Committee is in
opposition to theamara Chief,to the Government and most outspoken
in opposition to the Hereros antheChief's Council.
It is very difficultassessat the moment what the influence of the
Enecutive Committee is at present. The Damara population is divided
into different groups and only the future can establish whether the
Committee will succeed in what it wants.
hlr.~~ULLER: &Ir.Dahlrnann, you rnentioned two parties, or organiza-
tions, representative of the Coloured people in South West Africa, namely
Volksorganisasie van Suid-West Afrika (VOSWA).Will you deal with
those two?
Mr. DAHLMANY Ne:s, Mr. President. There are two organizations, the WITNICSSES AND EXPERTS
473
South West Africa Coloured Organization issemi-political with Coloured
membership. Its main purpose is to advance the Weil-being of the
Coloured people. In the main it supports the Government and one can
say itis the strongest organization amongstthe Coloured people.
There is anotherorganization-VOSWA-Volksorgan isnasuie-
West Afrika, created to seek support among tlieColoured and Baster
population.
The Volksorganisasie van Suid-West Afrika is in opposition to the
Governrnertt. It has not succecded in gaining any real support and it iç
at present completely inactive.
MT. MULLER A:nd then thereisthe Burghers' Association of the Reho-
both. Kindly just tell the Court very briefly wliat that organizatiis
and how itoperates.
Mr. DAHLMAN Nhe Burghers' Association isalsoa semi-politicaas-
sociation because each Baster burgher of the Rehoboth Gebiet with
Burgher citizençhip iç +esea member of this organization. TheBurghers'
Association isan organization for the discussion olocalsffairsof the
Rehoboth Gebiet. As 1have mentioned, the Rehoboth Burghers' Associa-
tion isody for the Rehoboth Gebiet and itadvisesthe Advisory Council,
the Basterraad, of the Rchoboth Gebiet.
Mr.MULLER Thank OU, Sir.
&Ir. Dahlmann, you have indicated tothe Court that certain political
parties were farnied amongstsome of the population groups. Were there
attempts also to form political parties representatof the Territory as a
whale, orofmorethan one ofthe population groups?
Mr. DAHLMAN YNes, hlr. Presiden1mentianed a number of organiza-
tions which came into existenceon triballinesAt a later stage, oncan
Say since :1963,vigorous attempts have been made to create unity
between the different anti-government organizations1 will now proceed
with the discussionof the united frontand parties which were intended
to bnng al1the anti-governrnent organizationstcigether. This movement
was necessiry because the liberation comrnittee of the Organization of
African Unity had indicated that no firiancial aid shouldbe given to
splinter groups or tribal organizations but onlyatunited front.
Under these circumstances,S\VANU (the South West Africa National
Union) approached SWAPO (the South West Africa Peoples Organiza-
tion), the Chiefç Council, the South West Africa United National In-
dependence Organization, and VOSWA to be inembers of one united
front. The name of this fronwas supposed to be the South West Africa
National Liberation Front. This front came into existence in October
1963, but onIyS\VANU and SWAPO rnembers servedon the committee.
Within a few wecks'time itbecame clear that the Chiefs Couneil rejected
this front completely and in April 1964 the SWAPO President, living
abroad, and other SWAPO leadersabroad disassocisted thernselves from
thisfront.A rather confused situation arosThe SIVAPO and SIVANU
committee members of SWANLF stated that they were prepared to
continue to CO-operate.
Since the middIe of 1964 nothing has been heard from this front.As
mentioned before, the Chiefs Council uras not prepared to CO-operate
within the South West African National 1-iberation Front. Therefore it
is quite understandable that the Chiefs Council tried to creaaeunity
party under Herero control or Herero leadership in order tget outside
support.474 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
I must mention that Kerina who kvasat that tirne in Bechuanaland
had broken with SWAPO in 1962.He issued a press statement that he
resigned as Chairman and he left the party.
A new attempt to come to a CO-operationwith SWAPOfailed. Within
South West Africa, Kapuuo, the Chief designate of the Hereros, tried to
organize a national convention. As many non-White personalities as
possible should participate. The national convention was supposed to
take place in May 1g64. The convention had to bepostponed. Never-
theless, Kerina issued a press statement in June 19that a united front
of al1population groups had been formed and the name of this united
party was NACIP-National Convention Independence Party. In fact
this party had never been formed and, consequently, never existed except
on paper and one did not hear any more about this party.
The PRESIDENW T:here was the press statement issued, Mr. Muller?
Mr. MULLER : ill you tell the Court, Mr. Dahlmann, where the press
statement wvasissued?
>Ir. DAHLMANN T:e press statementwas issuedin Bechuanaland and
sent to papers in the Republic, that 1 know. 1 do not know whether it
was sent to papers in London; 1 W. toldso, but thati cannot prove.
In August 1964 two Ietters written by Kerina to the United Nations
and by Kapuuo to the Liberation Committee of the Organization for
African Unity announced the creation of United Namib Independence
unknown.PaIn his letter Kapuuo strongly attacked the South West Africa
National Liberation Front, SWAPOand SWANU. May 1quote from this
letter...
Mr. MULLERB :efore you quote from the letter, Mr. Dahlmann, will
you tell the Court how you came into possession of the letter, or a copy
of the letter?
Mr. DAHLMANNh:loses Katjihuangua, the Direct01 of SWANU
Foreign Missionin Dar-es-Salaam, wrote to me, a press statement, which
shoiild appearin theAllgemeineZeftung as soonas possible. In thisletter
Katjihuangua refers to the letter written by Kapuuo to the Assistant
Secretary of the African Liberation Comrnitteein Dar-es-Salaam.
According to Katjihuangua the letterwas dated 14August 1964,and
it was (the whole letter) written by Kapuuo to the Assistant Secretary of
the African Liberation Committee, and there Kapuuo said:
"Our Party, the United Namib Independence Peoples Party, is
composed ofprogressive elements drawn from aHpreviously existing
politicalroups dedicated to thenon-tribal unification of our people
and it is the only organization which has already achieveadegree
of popular support from al1sections of the African populationItis
now our urgent responsibility to organize and mobilize our people '
for a discipline and militant struggle."
Mr. MULLERW : as the letter published as requested?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:he letter and the comment were published as re-
quested.
hlr.MULLER D:id that draw any reaction?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:es, Mr. President, the letter drew most violent
reaction especially from SWANU and the Damara Tribal Executive
lettehasebeen written to the United Nations in the name of this party, WITNEÇSES AND EXPERTS 475
the United Namib Independence Peoples Party. This party has dis-
appeared completely.
iîfr. MULLER :OUalso mentioned a party by the name of NUDO-
National Unity Democratic Organization. Can you tell the Court briefly
something about this party?
Mr. DAHLMAN Ires, hlr. President, this party, the National Unity
Democratic Organization, still exists. In September 1964, Kapuuo issiied
a press statement announcing the formation of the National Unity
Democratic Organization. He gave us a list of the Cornmittee membcrs
and there appear a number ofleaders of tribaaswell aspolitical organi-
zations in South West Afnca. But aUprominent non-Heréros mentioned
asCommittee members of the National Unity Democratic Organization
subsequently denied membership not only of the Committee but also
membership of the party. The Nama Chief, Hendrik Samuel Witbooi,
quoted as assistant party leader, denied thethad been informed about
the formation of the party and açked that his name be removed.
May 1explain, Mr. President, that Hendrik Samuel Witbooi is not the
Nama Chief in South West Africa. He isthe Cliief of the Krantzplatz
Namas: Krantzplatzis a small spot a few miles away from Gibeon. Chief
Samuel Witbooi, whom 1 know personally, said hiniself that his tribe
consists of ~oopeople altogether, Though Witbooi denied that he was a
Committee member, the same applicd to Allan I.ou\v-Allan Louwis the
Chairman of the Rehoboth Burgher Association. Thc same applies to
David Gertze;Gertze is a Nama and he isthe President of the SouthWest
Africa United National Independence Organization, SWAUNIO. And
the same applies to Chief Frederick Izaak; Chief Izaak is also a Nama
Chief, living at Berseba-I also know him, and I know AllanLouw and
Gertze.
Rlr.MULLER :id any of these people to whom you have now referred
indicate that they were not members or office bearers of this party,
NUDO?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:es,Rfr. President, theydid so by means of press
statements and Chief Witbooi and David Gertzc wrote a letter to the
United Nations on IO October I 64, that is United Nations document
A/AC.rog/Pet. 368 of 13April 185. In a letter to the Secretary-General,
Witbooi and Gertze state:
"Re: TheNational United DamocrnticOrganizatioii,
S.W.A.
Information is hereby given that we do not know anything about
the above-narned Organization. Viz. "NU130" witch came into
- existence recently.
Someone may send you reports of how it came to establishSDC~
an organization. But without consulting the Nama people. Even the
names ofthe people wereused and undersigned who werenot present
at the meeting andwhen the constitution were composed.
Ive thus beg to state that the establishment of this 'NUDO'is not
approved bv us.
Such method is for OurNarna people catastroyhious.
Bear this in rnind that we cannot be used astools.
We shall not tolerate this treatmennny longer.
And we cannot be regarded as rnembers of the sai'NUDO'. SOUTH WEST AFRICA
476
In the hope that this will find your favourable consideration.
Sincerely yours,
(Signed) H. S. Witbooi
(Signed) J. D. Gertze
President South West Afnca National Independence Organisation."
Mr. MULLER N:ow, what has happened to NUDO: does itstill exist?
And what support has it?
Rlr.DAHL~IANP N;:DO does still exist. The Damaras are strongly
opposed to NUDO. No prominent Damara is serving on the NUDO
Cornmittee.SWAPO, SWAXU and SLVANLF are also strongly opposed
toNUDO. Actuaily,NUDO is nothing else but the Chiefs Council under
a different narneNUDO is working in collaborationwith Kerina, who
isChairman of NUDO and who has, as 1 mentioned, with the exception
of sma1lperiods, acted as petitioner on behalf of the Herero at the United
Nations.
The resultis thatNUDO is apure Herero party. The reason might be
that thc tribaand party leadership is identical-thtribal leadership of
the Herero and the party leadership NUDO. Hosea Kutako is theparty
leader and Klemens Kapuuo is the party president.
Nevertheless, this tribal discipline within the Herero nation and the
combined tribal and part31 leadershipmakc NUDO the strongest non-
White political party within the Territory.
Mr. BIULLER :ust to sum up, Alr. Uahlmann, you have deait with
various political parties. Can you tell the Court whether these parties or
organizations enjoy the support of more than one of the different popula-
tiongroups orarethey representative respectively only of onepopulation
group?
Mr. DAHLMAN :Nhey represent mainly onepopulation group with the
exception ofSWANU and, to a certain extent, SWANLF.
But, Mr. President, 1 wonder whether it is advisable to stress the
NUDO programme a little bit further, because it is the most important
organization in South West Africa?
hlr.MULLER Yes, please do, ifyou think it is important, but very
briefly, please.
Mr. DAHLMAN Nhe Hereros are faced with the difficulty that they
are a small minonty group and it is quite understandable that they fear
the overwhelming numerical strength of the Ovambos. Kapuuo ha
therefore, in his interviews, explainedthat tribalism in South West
Africa has got to be accepted asa reality foa long time to corne. The
Chief's Council,NUDO, thus wishes to divide South West Africa inta
number of regions with regional parliamentsand a federal government. I
The number of regions is not quite certain. At the time of the Carpio visit l
in 1962the Wereros suggested three regions, today they (NUDO) suggest
four to five regions. These will be Ovamboland, in the north, Damaraland
for the Ilamaras, Hereroland, which means the whole central part of
South West Africa for the Hereros, Basterland as it,for the Rehoboth
, Basters and Namaland inthe South. NUDO docs not envisage any region
for the Whites.
They are in favour of a federal government in which each region çha!l
have equal representation irrespective of their numerical strengThis
would, of course, neutralize the threat of Ovambo domination. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 477
A new rift withiNUDO seems imminent. Kerina personally is strongly
opposed to tribalism and group loyalty. As Chairman of NUDO, he
indicated in his latest petitiotheUnited Nations that he is in favour
of a scheme which is totally different fromNUDO policy at homeHe
wants to create one single political union on the basis one man one vote,
with 80 constituenciesinSouth West Africa.This could have the result
that the Hereros would be swarnped by the Ovambo numerical strength.
When I asked Kapuuo to comment on this petition to the United
Nations he stated that he had no knowledge of it. He had not received a
copy
hlr.NULLER: NOW,if we can get back to the question which 1 asked
-1 interrupted you then-as to whether, in summing up, any of thesz
polit ical parties are representative of thanone of these population
groups in South West Africa?
PiIrDAHLMAN N:ost of the parties are formed on a tribal basis. Ali
attempts to achieve unity provedafailure. There is one exception-that
is the South \jrest Africa National Union-which has onIy a small
following. Neither the leaders nor the foIlomers are able to rise beyond
the borders of group nationalism and therefoSWANU consiçts only of
a small nurnber of intellectuals, but from various popuIation groups. You
find there Ovambos. Hereros (especiaily Hereros) and a few Damaras.
Mr. MULI.ER W:hat are the relations between the various parties?
hlr.DAHLMANX M:ost are extremely antagonistic towardeach other.
The leaders accuse each other of being traitors. Chiefs Council and
NUDO especially are violently acnised of attem~iting to achieve Herero
domination over other population groups.
hlr.MULLER :OWrepresentative are the differentparties of the groups
amongst which they do seek support?
Mr.DAHI~MAN MKo:t ofthe political parties and organizatioiis com-
mand very little support within their own population groups. The only
exception is NUDO, the Werero organization. 1 mentioned this before,
because of the tribal and party leadership being irientical and, due to the
tribal discipline, they enjoyuite a lot of support within the Herero
nation.
SWACO-the South West Africa Coloured Organization-enjoys quite
remarkable support within the Coloured community of South West
Afnca. The Burghers' Association in Rehoboth is, ofcourse,not a real
political organization. Each and every burgher is fier se a rnember of this
organizatioiiItreflects various trenin the Rehoboth community. The
Ilamara Tribal Executive Cornmittee does not reflect the situation
within the Damara tribe at present. SWAPO-the South West Africa
People's Organization-enjoys at present oniy srnaIl support from the
Ovambos. SWAUNIO-the Nama organization-has no significant
support and is more or less inactiCANU,the Caprivi African National
Union, enjoys only negligible supportSWADU, the South West Africa
Democratic Union, is,1 think one can Say, not esistent any more.
VOSWA, the Volksorganisasie van Suid West-Afrika, enjoys also very
littlesupport andis inactiveSIVANU, the South M'estAfrican National
Union, does not seek support on the group basis.
I may add that in the Okavango there is no political party. The
population follow the traditional chiefs and headmen and thcre isnolso
political organization whatsoever amongst the Bushmen.
Mr. MULLERA : lrDahhann, 1 -,vantyou to divert now to the478 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
various parties in South West Africa? they stiH play a leading role in the
Mr. DAHLMANY Ne:s, Mr. President, I think orlecan Sayyes. Although
Kerina broke with SWAPO, or SWAPO with him, in 1962,he was still
the co-founder ofNACIP,UNIPP and NUDO. He is the prcsent NUDO
Chairman.
Kozonguizi is the SWANU President. Sam Nujorna isstill the SWAPO
President. Kuhaungua is still a leading personality within SWAPO.
Although he is abroad he is the Secretary-General. Markus Kooper
appears for SWAUNIO, the inactive Nama organization, and Chief
Witbooi; Michael Scott, who has not been in the Territory since the late
forties, appeared in the past for the Herero Chiefs Council. There are a
number of other petitioners overseas who are also connected with the
organizations within South West Africa.
The petitioners overseas are actually continuing with their campaign
without much reference to theirassociateinSouth 1VestAfrica,andthe
majority of cases these party leaders have brought are apparently in-
dependent from their respective parties in South West Africa. They are
iççuingoften policy statements which are unknown in South West Africa.
One exarnple, as1 have already mentioned, is the Kerina petition to the
United Nations about the political programme of NUDO. Kerina is in
favour ofone unitand Kapuuo, the party President in South West Africa,
stated thathe isin favour ofa federation, in favour of regionalism, and
received a copy. party knew nothing about this petition and had not
Mr. MULLER:hlay 1 just ask you there-you have referred to this
petition-have you a copy of the petition there?
Rlr. DAHLMANY Ne:s,1 have got a...
Mr. MULLERW : ould you give the Court the number of that particular
petition and the date?
Mr. DAHL~IANN T:he number: AIAC.IO~/DEB.~~I.Add.14, 14 Sep
tember 1965.
Mr. MULLER : as that petition circulatas aUnited Nations dom-
ment?
Mr. DAHLMAN N :s,Mr. President, that is correct. A special commit-
tee on the situation with regard to the Implementation of the Declaration
of the Grantingof Independence to Coloniai Countrieand Peoples.
hlr. MULLER:Now, in that petition, is there any reference to this
particular Court action?
Mr. DAHLMANY Ne:s, hlr. President.
hlrMULLER: On what page?
Mr.DAHLMANP Na:ge number 5.
Mr. MULLERW : ilYOU read what is stated there?
Mr.DAHLMANM N:ay 1 mention that Kerinaasks in this petition for a
Afnca? 1 quote from the document: to discuthesituatiorrin South West
"It will similarlp have a great psychological effect on the Inter-
national Court of Justice and to hasten the proceedings in regard to
the rendering of the judgment. hleanwhilwe in South West Afnca
of the South African Government."itive-action campaign in defiance
hlr. MULLERN :OWthe "it" referred to in that passage...Does that
refer to the suggested resolution of the Security Council? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 479
,Mr. DAHLMANN E:cuse me, 1 did not understand the question.
Mr. MULIER: \'OU read a paragraph which starts with the word "it".
Now, it is not clew what the "it" means. Would you not rather read the
whole of it, starting off with the paragraph which precedes it and makeç
it clea?
&Ir.DAHLMA NN
". .. convening of the United Nations Security Council on the
question of South West Africa ai this moment before the General
Assemhly will help to highlight the situation in South West Afnca
and to mobjlize the international public opinion."'
Mr. MULLERR :ead on.
Mr. DXHLMA NN
"It will similarly have a great psychological effect on the Inter-
national Court of Justice and to hasten the proceedings in regard to
the rendering of the judgment. Meanwhile, we, in South West Africa
are embarking on a nationwide positive-action campaign in defiance
of theSouth African Government."
Mr. MULLER :OW,will YOU just Iook at the front page of the petition
and tell the Court on whose behalf the petition was supposed to have
been?
Mr.DAHLMAN TN:ispetition...The United Nations document says:
"Two petitions from Mr. Mburumba Kerina, Party Chairman and Chief
Hosea Kutako, leader, National Unity Democratic Organization,udo,
concerning South West Africa."
Mr. MULLER : think you have indicated to the Court that when this
petition came to be known to you, you contacted Kapuuo. 1s that
correct?
Mr. DAHLMANN: That is correct, Mr. President.
The PRES~DENY T~:s,Mr. Gross?
Mr.G~oss: 1 regret the interruption. but for the sake of accuracy at
this point, Sir, the document to which the witness is referring is entitled
"Two petitionç froITr K.erina and Chief Kutako." The first petiison
signed by Mr. Kerina and that is the one to which refereismade in
the second petition, which is attached to the document, is signed by
ChMr. MULLER and:r. Dahlmann, you have alreacly indicated what the
heading of this petitiis.It reads as follows: "l'wo petitions frornMr.
Mburumba Kerina, Party Chairman, and Chief Hosea Kutako, leader,
National Unity Democratic Organization. Now,...
The PRESIDENT :oes that description coincide with the officialcopy,
Jfr.Muller?
Blr.MULLER :lr. President,have the official copy circulated in the
United Nations and I am reading from that. Concerning South West
Africa, now, just to get this clear, whoeParty Chairman of NUDO?
Mr. DAHLMANT Nh:e Party Chairman, Mr. Prcsident, is Mburumba
Kerina and fhe party leader is Hosea Kutako, but there are two petitions
in this document. The first cornesfrom Kerina, from the Party Chairman
and another, different one cames from Hosea Kutako, in his capacasy
party leader.
hfr.MULLER: NOW, 1 am going to make the position clear. Wiii you
turn to pageIOofthe document and see on whose behalf Mr. Kerina signs
this document?480 SOUTH WEST AFHlCA
Mr. DAHLMAN hi:. Kerina çignçthis document in his capacity of
Party Chairman of NUDO.
Mr. MULLER :OWyou Say you contacted somebody in the NUDO
organization at Windhoek?
Rlr.DAHL~~AN M NrPresident, yes, whef learned about this petition
by means of a press agency report1 'phoned irnmediatelyMr.Kapuuo
and.. .
Blr.MULLER W:ho is Mr. Kapuuo?
Mr.DAHLMAN Nl. Kapuuo is the Party President NUDO.I asked
him whether he would like to comment on this çtatemcnt made by the
Party Chairman, Kerina, and he stated he had no knowledge of this
petition.He had not received a copy.
&Ir.MULLER Air. Dahlmann, generally speaking, areyou aware of the
contents of petitions that are submitted to the United Nations by
petitioners? Do you generally come to hear of them or read them?
Mr. DAHLMAN YN:s,1 am aware of the contents of many petitions.
1receive copies of many of them from the senders, also from the United
Nations and of course, aIso, from press agency reports. We regularly
report the contents of these petitions in Our newspaper.
RZr.MULLER D:O the allegationin these petitions always reflthe
truth of situations in South West Africa, aç you know them?
Mr.DAHLMA NTO USin South West Africa, it is sometimes very hard
tuunderstand these petitions. Many of them, whether thecorne from
within South West Africa or from abroad, contain false statemeand
serious distortions and exaggerations of the real situation. Only to name
a few which are made very often. for example, that there is a large scale
of militarizaiion in South West Africa, theamissile tracking station,
that thenon-Lhiteç within theTerritory live in condiofslavery, that
genocideis committed againstthe non-Whites, that they are beinex-
terminated or murdered, that they have no schools, no hospitals. On one
occasion, one petitionewaç Mrs. Appolus, who gave evidence to the
effect that the infantrtality rate amongst the non-imitesexceeded
99per cent. andI think these allegations mentioned are unfounded.
Mr.MULLER One final question, Mr. Dahlmann. From your experience,
can you çtate as your opinion whether the different non-White poljtical
parties will be able to CO-operateand form, or work in, a single pohtical
party unit?
Mr. DAHLMAN1 Nw:ould like to associate myself with Mr. Kapuuo,
who said, in an interview with hlr. Christian HeJnr., iWindhoek,
that tribalism and group loyalties are things which you have to take into
account in South West Africa for many years to come. So cannot see
any possibility for a unification within the foreseeable future.
Mr. MULLER Thank you. Nr. President, 1 have no further questions
to put to hlr. Dahlmann.
The PRESIDENT Th:ank you, &IrMuller. llr. Grosç?
Mr. GROSS :fr. Presidenti have rather full notes, here, Sir, with 1
many names, some of which 1got and some ofwhich 1 did not get.1
could, if the Court pleases, begin without being able to organize my notes
on certain quaiifying questions, injustice to the Applicants' caIe,
hesitate to get into cross-examination at this moment respecting the
many aspects of the political organizationwhich have been named,
described, and from which inferences have been drawn. With exception
to that, Sir, if it pIeases the1Cshould liki: to begin by aswhat WITNESÇES AND BXPEItTS 48r
might be describedasquestions regarding the witness' qualifications, Sir.
The PRESIDENT & Ir.Gross; you may proceed to do so. Itnow half
past twelve, if you reach the stage when you would prefeto have an
adjournment untilMonday, the Court willaccede tothat,since you state
that you wish to organize your cross-examination on what is a detailed
presentationof thepolitical situationSouth West Africa.
&Ir.GROS: Thank you, Rir.President.
The PRESIDEST V:ery well, proceed.
Rlr. G~oss: Mr. Dahlmann, would you please state when you were
born, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAXN 4:March 1918.
Mr. G~oss: You have testified. Sir, that you were born in Germany
and you leftfor SouthWest Africa in1958?
Blr.DAHLMAN :In 1958.
hlr.GROSSA : the age, then, o40, Itake it, Sir?
blr.DAHLMAN :N es.
hlr. GROSS: Did you attend schools in Gerinany throughout your
educational career?
Mr. DAHLMAN :Nn the f;eciiy of Danzig.
Mr. GROSS n Danzig. 1 think you said youqualificd for a lawyer's
degree at the University of Kiel, is that correct?
Mr. DAHL~IAN NNO, thût is not correct, hir. Presid1ngot a law
degree at the Kiel University, that means th1tcompleted my studies
and passed the final examination.
The PRESIDENT :aving done the preparatory work elsewhere? Ts
that correct? Did you do alSour courseinlaw at Kiel?
hfr.DAHLLIAN N:1my coiirseç in Kiel, yes.
Mr. GROSSM : r.Dahlmann, then was itafter graduation from the
University of Kiel that you entered the profession of journalism?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:es, MrPresident, that is correct.
Mr. G~oss: Had you engaged in any otheroccupations or profeçsions
other than journalism in Germany?
Mr. DAHI-MAN1 Nw:as the editor for poliatctheKieler Nachrichten
in Kiel.
1ClrGROSS: I'ere you in any respect active in politicalaffairs in
Germany ?
hlr.DAHLMAN1 Nw:aç not a mernberofany party, Mr President.
Mr. GROSS: Were YOU affiliated with any organization oa public
na&Ir.DAHI.MANN HO, Mr. President.
&Ir.CROSS W:ere you a member of the Hitler Youth for examplSir?
The PRESIDENT \:at has that to do with the case, Mr. Gross?
Mr. G~oss :1would stress the relevance of questions whicïi might fairly
be relatedtobias,as an expert,Sir.
The PRESIDEN T as?
MT. G~oss: Bias, Sir, yes.
The PRESIDENT n what way wouId it esta1,lish bisif he were a
member of the Hitler Youth?
hlr.G~oçs: I think,Sir,for the information of the Court, 1 should
like...
The PRESIDENT P:ychological bias?
hlr. G~oss: Psychological bias, since the heavy race aspecof this
case ...482 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
The PIESIDENT:Well, this Court is removed from ps-.hologi-al bias,
hlr. Gross.
Afr.GROSS:Sir, rnay I pursue the line of enquirwith respect to other
than possible Nazi party affiliation?
The PRESIDENTP :leasedo so. You may askhim, if you wish to, having
said that, if he is a member of the Nazi partp or if he is a member of the
Hitler Youth, if you think it is going to help the Court.
Mr. GROSS: Weil Sir, naturally ifthe witness does not wish to
answer ...
The PRESIDENTN : o, he has not said that at all.
Mr. GROSS: 1mean 1 do not wish to pressitif he does not...
The PRESIDENTY : OUmay press your question.
Mr. GROSS:Would you answer the question, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:es, Mr. President,1 was a member of the Hitler
Youth between 1934and 1936.
Mr. G~oss: Did you ever make any publ.c.statements on racial
questions?
Mr. DAHLMANN: 1 ùid not make any statements but 1 wrote many
aiticles in which I condemned most violently racidism in Germany, if
you refer to that time, and1have not changed my mind.
Mr. GROSS:Were these articles ~vritten, Sir, during the penod when
you were a member of the Hitler Youth?
Mr. DAHLMANN N:o. Mr. President, of course not, because at the age
of 15 or 16years, 1did not wnte any articles.
Mr.G~oss: The articles tu which yau refer in which you expressed
your convictions and sentiments on racial questions, were written when,
Sir, for the first time?
Mr.DAHLMANN M r.President, thawas onlyafter Ijoined anewspaper.
Mr. DAHLMANNnd tA:nd that was then 1948. me, Sir, please continue.
Mr. GROSSA :nd that was after the war, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMASNI:t was after the war.
Mr. Gaoss: Incidentally, would you have any objection to stating
whether you served in the German Armed Forces during the war?
The PRESIDENTW : ould that also be relevant to his testimony, do you
think, Mr. Gross?
Mr. GROSSS :irifit were in a political capacity, 1though...
The PRESIDENTW : ell, why don't you ask him in a political capacity?
Rlr.GROSS1 : did not want to assume that he had so served, Sir.
The PRESIDENT:1 see. \nrell, witness answer4id you serve in the
German Army during the war?
hlr. DAHLMANN Y:es,Rh. President, 1 did.
Mr. G~oss: In whst branch, Sir?
Mr. DAHLIIIANN I: the Air Force.
Mr. G~oss: Witli what rank, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMANN A:t last aa major.
Mr. GROSST :hat was in the Luftwaffe, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:es, Mr. President, that is correct.
hlr. GROSSA: nd as a major in the Luftwaffe, Sir,did you have occasion
to participate in political discussions or organizations?
Mr. DAHLMANN N:one whatsoever.
Mr. G~oss: You Ieft Germany in 1958 to reside permanently in South
West Africa. Sir? WITXESSES AND EXPERTS 4$3
Mr. DAIILMANNN : O, Mr. President, actualIy not. It was not my in-
tention at the beginning to reside there permanently, it was more or less
to gain more knowledge in African affairs and to gain more knowledge
of world affairs.
The PRESIDENTM : r. Gross, have you finished your questionsin relation
to his assoi:iation with the GermaArrny, etc.?
Mr.GROSS :es, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT: Will you be suggesting tothtCourt in any way that
that bears iipon the reliability of the witness's testimony or his expertise?
Rlr. GROSS: 1would suggest to the Court,Sir,that itmight be taken
into account by the Court in weighing the credibility ordegree of ex-
pertise, in connection with certain questions whic1 might pose in the
cross-examination and which 1should then try to connectup, Sir.
The PRESIDENT Very welI, Mr. Gross, continue.
Mr.G~oss :Will you stateSirwhatthe circulation ofyour newspaperis?
Mr. DAHLMAN :NThe circulation is limited-5,000copies-that covers
the German population of South West Africa. The German-speaking
population amounts roughly to ZO,OOa Ond that means one newspaper for
every four people.
Mr.GROSS : How large an editorial staff do you honethe newspaper?
Mr. DAHLMAN :NFour altogether.
Mr. GROSS: DO you, Sir, yourself, 1fmay put itthis way, handle the
political coverage of the paper in journalistic terms?
Mr. DAHLMANNY :es,MT. President, 1do.
Mr.GROSSI:n your investigations or coverageasa journalistdo you
have occasion, Sir, to visit the northern territories?
Mr. DAHLMANN :es, &Ir.President.
Mr. GROSÇ: When were you in Ovamboland last, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMANN : think it was in June-July this yeru.
&Ir.GROSSA :nd how long did you stay there, Sir?
Mr. DAHI-MANN A:t that time, only one day, b1tpaid quite a number
of visits to Ovamboland as well as to the other Reserves in South West
Africa and the north as well as in the south.
hlr. GROSS:With respect to Ovamboland, on what other occasions,
besides this oneday that you have just mentioni:d, were you there?
Mr. DAHLMANNO : nceI went to Ovamboland in 1962 shortIy after
Mr. Carpio had gone there and since then1 went, 1can Say, regularly to
Ovarnboland, sometimes for a period of two orthree days, sometimes
shorterand whenever 1 go to these place1am trying to have discussion
with the tribal authorities as weas with the political leader there.
Mr. GROSSS : ir, your discussion with the tribal authorities, what
language dciyou speak?
Mr. DAHI~MAN Khat depends whether the tribal authorities arable
to understand English or Afrikaans or German Ifthey understand one
of these languages, then1 use these languages, otherwisI must ask for
an interpreter, who ialways non-White. 1 never lisa White interpreter.
Mr.G~oss: Has it been your experience,Sir, that the majority, roughly
speaking, of the persons with whom you converse in Ovamboland do
speak either English, German or Afrikaans?
Mr. DAHLMANNM : r. President, that is a difficult question bec1use
discuss matters more or less witthe more educated people.I am mainly
interested in discussing matters with them and not al1 of them speak
Afrikaans, English or German, but a number of them of course speak484 SOUTH IYEST AFRIC-4
English or Afrikaans and 1 must Say that the political leaders, that does
not apply only to Ovamboland that applies to the wholeTerritory, prefer
to speak English.
&ZrG~oss: Sir would it be pour opinion aapolitical observer that the
facility in a common language in Ovamboland, let us say specifically,
would be ofhelp to a political organization afmature nature?
Rlr.DAHLMAN N:r. President, the Ovmbos understand each other
and although they speak different dialects, they have their Ovambo
language which is the common language there and 1 think no Ovambo
would get the idea to speak to another Ovambo in Afrikaans or English
and that applies to Ovamboland.
Mr. GROSS : OWSir, with respect to my question on a somewhat
broader scale-as a political observer would it be your opinioSir.that
the knowledge of only one of the dialects of Ovambo would impede, let
us say,discussions between Ovambo political leaders and political leaders
of other tribes?
air.DAHLMAN Slr. President-number one, the Ovambos are more
or less ableto understand a Herero, although it is a different language
but they can rnake themselves understood. The Ovarnbos do not under-
stand the Namas and the Hereros also do not understand the Namas,
but the political leaders also speak the other tribal languages or under-
stand them at least, this applies especially for the Ovambos and Hereros.
Mr. G~toss:Would you Sap,Sir, again asa politicalobserver or analyst,
that the use of a common language by various ethnic or tribal groups
would facilitate understanding among them in the sense of political
organiz-tion and discussion?
hir.DAHLMAXN A: common lanpage is aiways usefui, hlr. President.
hfr. GHOSS\:I7ould you regard the absence of a common language as
an obstacle or hindrance to political consultation and correspondence
among various groups?
Mr. DAHL~~ANA Xs1said before, that is not actually the case because
this correspondence takes place more or less between the political leaders
and the political leaderunderstand each other.
Mr. G~oss: In the political system prevailing in South West Africa are
there political leaders without political followers?
Rlr.DAHLMANN T:here are political leaders without political followers
or with a very limited number of followers.
Rlr.GKOSS N:ow Sir, with respect to those political leadwith more
than a limited number of followers, wouldit,in your opinion, be impor-
tant thatthe followers be able to understandthose who speak different
languages in other tribes and other areas?
hfr.DAHLMANN W ell, that might be useful but as faas I heard this
question never arose and 1 attended a lot of political meetingand the
procedure is as follows: on some occasions there was a Herero speaker,or
one speaker used the Herero language, another one Nama, a third one
-Coloureds-prefer Afrikaans, and there are always interpreters and
therefore its not difficult for the followers to understand what a respec-
tive speaker is talking about; thats the procedure existing.
Rlr.GROSSJ:ust one more question on that point: from the pain! of
view of political anaIysis would you regard the riecessity, or the practice,
or the procedure of using interpreters as facilitating or impeding under-
standingand CO-ordinationof apolitical nature xrnong political organiza-
tions, leaders and followers? FVITSESSEÇ ASD EXPERTS 46
Mr. DAHL~IAXS I: is of course easicr if an interpreter is not neces-
sary.
Rlr. GROSS:Do you find, in terms of political analysis, whether the
tribal langilages contain the words and phrases which correspond to, let
us Say, abstract political ideas?
Mr. DAHLMANN 1:do not speak any Native language. 1can deduct the
answer frorn the fact that if you listen to the interpreters you find vcry
seldom, in Afrikaans or English, words in their interpretation, so there
must be terms and words within the Native Iariguages which cover a11
these terrns and expressions.
Mr. G~oss: Have you ever heard it asserted as an argument agaiiist
granting vcites on a qualified or other basis to non-Whites that they have
not yet reached the stage of developmcnt in which they should be per-
mitted to participate in the franchise?
IllrDAHLM..I~ ~Sat is a very serious problcm. If one refers to the
level of development ofa whole group, then of course one must say they
have a completely different political organizatioii and, as 1 stated in my
evidence, theyare far removed from the idea of pitrliamentary demoaacy
known in the western world.
hlr.G~oss: During your sojourn in South West Africa, analysing
political problems and developments, have you encountered non-White,
let usSay, perçons classified as Natives in the census whom you rcgardcd
as of requisite political maturity and sophistication to be entitled to vote
on a merit basis?
Mr. DAHI-MANY Ne:s, must çay 1could think of a few political leaders
who would be capable, 1would Say, to sit in the Legislative Assembly of
South IVest Africa. If you take into consideration only the so-called
Police Zone without the Reçerves there are roughly 150,000 non-Euro-
peans or non-Whites and roughly 70,000 13Thites;there are18seats in the
Legislative Assernbiy.1 realIy do not think that there ar12 non-Whites
who would be capable to sit in this Legislative Assembly, according to
their number roughly, and who woulclbe able to govern the country, but
1 can think ofcourse of a few individuals who are capable to sit there or
to takepart in the administration of the country, regardless of what their
educational qualificationsmight be. 1 would not hesitate to say that a
man like Hosea Kutako, for example, who is illiterate-hbelongs to that
gencration, and he is almostIOO ycars of age-coiild siin the Legislative
Assembly, or a man like Kapuuo or Karnaera or, to mention one of the
leaders abrciad, Kozonguizi, whom 1regard as highly intelIigent, whatever
his politicaldeas are;but these people are, imy persona1opinion, really
mature, but the great problem and greatest difficulty is these peopdo
not want tosit in the Legislative Assembly under the qualified franchise
system. Tht:y have stated again and again that they only accept majority
rule-that means one man, one vote-nothing less, and they are so
dedicated to theirotvn nation or to their own group andto group loyalty
that they clo not think of this qualified franchise. On the other hand.
their respective nations orroups would regard them astraitors. 1might
mention one name again,and that was Kozonguizi; and Kozonguizi 1sof
course for multi-racialism and against group loyalties and tribalism in
any form, but he is even more outspoken agsinst participation within, if
1 may Say 50, White-led parliarnent, and he went so far as to Say that he
is against any sort of CO-operation witli the Imite liberals within the
Terri tory.486 SOUTH FVEÇT AFRICA
Mr. GROSS : ou say Rlr. Kozonguizi has made that staternent?
Mr. DAHLMAN N:s.
Mr. GROSS :an you cite the occasion on which he made thestntcment?
Mr. DAHLMANY Ne:sit was, Iremember correctly, an article written
by RIT Kozonguizi himself which appearein Freedom,the international
organ of the South West Africa National Union. This article appeared in
November 1964 under the heading "National Liberation Struggle in
South West Africa", and1 would like to be very short because there is
a long chapter about the White liberals and the liberals:
"Another important development in the politics of South \Vat
Africa which may have caused the downgrade of the once powerful
SWAPO Council opposition tSWANU had been the role of the
White liberal and liberals.
Today thetruth of reality is that the excesses of White nationalist
extremism in South West Africa can only be checked by an orthodox
policy baçed on agressive nationalism initiateand guided by
Afncans themselves, nothing in between. The imites in South West
Africa rnust remember that it is their own saying that one cannot
have one's cake and eitThe choice is between the White nationa-
lists on the one hand and the Africaii nationalists and socialists on
theother; no room for liberals, or liberals be they Imite, Yellow or
BIack.That is the political situation inside the country, having
considered that we shall now turn Our attention to the politics of
South West Africans abroad ..",
and so on.
Mr.G~oss:You have testified, have you not, that this same gentleman,
iilr. Kozonguizi, is ChairmaSWANU?
Mr.DAHLMAN N :is PresidentofSiVAXU, the South West Africa
Xational Union, pes, thiscorrect.
Blr.GROSS: And is it your testimony that this organization does not
favour CO-operationwith ivhites, or whatever the phrase you was,
withrespect to Kozonguizi's alleged be!icfs
hlrDAHLMAN Nhis organization, 1shave mentioned,ismost out-
spoken against White rule, and it favours a militant, revolutionary way.
Mr. GROSSM : y questionwas whether it is your testimonythat the
SWANU organization, of which hlr. Kozonguizi is PresidentorChairman,
is opposed to CO-operationsvith the Whites.
Rir. DAHLXIANS NW: ANU within the Territory isopposed to CO-
operation with the Mites.
Mr. GROSÇ:In achieving a political systeinwhich the non-Whites
haveparticipation?
Mr. UAHLMAN They want African rule-one man, one vote.
Mr. GROSÇ : ith respectothe descriptioyou have just given the
SiVANU programme in terms of the asserted policy not to CO-opcrate
with i'hites, could you cite any specific examples by way of declarations
or statementçof ÇWANU in that respect? Do you know whether you
have any with youof that category?
Mr. DAHLMAN :YNes,1most certainly have statements like that.
hlr.G~oss: Couid you readily find one that you regard as represen-
tative,or more if you wish, so that the Court may evaluate your analysis
or appraisaof their language? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
487
[Public hearingof Ir October19651
Mr. G~oss: Mr. Dahlmann, at the conclusion of the proceedings on
Friday, 8 Cictober, you will recall that we were discussing the position of
SWANU with respect specifically to the question of CO-operationwith
the Whites, and, if 1 may refresh your recollection on that, and the
honourable Court, on page 486, supra, othe verbatim record the follow-
ing coiloquy took place. My question was whether it was your testimony
that the SIVANU organization, of which Mr. Kozonguisi is President or
Chairman, is opposed to CO-operationwith Whites, and your reply was:
"SWANU within the Territory is opposed to CO-operation with the
Whites."
I asked "In achieving a political system in whicthe non-Whites have
participation?"; and you answered, "They want African ruIe-one man,
one vote". And 1think the colloquy paused thi:re. If 1may ask, have
you, over the weekend, had sufficienttime to search the filesfor the type
of statemerit or position of SWANU which you had in mind, and if so, do
you care to present it to the Court, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMANNY : es, Sir. Mr. President, have a statement to that
effect; thal. means SWAW is opposed ta CO-operationwith the Whites
within the framework of qualified franchise.
The PRESIDENT:That was the actual point which you asked him, Mr.
Gross. You asked him:
"With respect to the description you have just given of the
SWAKU programme interms of the asserted policy not to co-operate
with Whites, could you cite any specificexamples by way of declara-
tionsor statements of SWANU in that respect?"
Mr. GROSÇ:Yes, Sir; quiteso.
Mr. DAHLMANNM : r. President, am I allowed to make a few other
remarks in regard to the policy of the non-White political organization?
The PRESIDENT N:O,Mr. Dahlmann, if you will produce the particular
items that you are asked by Rlr. Gross, but subject to that you ..
Mr. DAHLMANNT :here is one statement issued by the South West
Africa National Union, issued by the national conference held at Wind-
hoek from 30 May to I June 1964. If 1may read the statement:
"This national conference rejects the Odendaal Commission
Report, the blueprint for apartheidin South West Africa, engineered
and to be implemented by the fascist Government of South Africa
and the most unwelcome central administration in South West
Africa; approves the decision of the national Executive Cornmittee
to expcisethe hollowness of the evil docume~it which is nothingbut
a colossal fraud, intended to sabotage the development of our
country and pervert the movement for national independence;
authorizes the external mission to prepare its reply to this subversive
piece of misinformation; reiterates that it will accept nothing less
than complete national independence under majority rule asa first
step towards socialist reconstruction; resolves to leave no stone
unturned to achieve this goal; dedicates itself to destroy the evil of
tribalism and racialism which breeds fascism; applauds the accession
to independence of many African countrjes ;rt:gisters its achievement
of work for true principles African unity as a means by which the
socialist evolution infrica'u~ilbeachieved and the development of
the African Continent and the welI-being of the people promoted."488 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
And there is another document-that was a press staternent which1
received in my capacity as cditor of tAllgerneilZeitung: ithasbeen
publislied, as far 1know, in two netvspapers in South West Africa.
MT. G~oss: May 1 ask, Mr. Prcsident, was ia press statement by
SWANU, Sir,and if so, bywhich office?Would jroumind identifying the
document, with the President's permission?
The PRESIDEN YT:u arc only asked the question>Ir.Dahlrnann, to
identify the document-by whom was it issued? 1s there anything to
indicate, on the document you received, by whom it was issued?
hlr.DAHLMAX TS:ere ia name-"Nathaniel", something like that,
that is the first namand the surname is unreadable.
Rlr.GROS: Sir,1have no objection to continuing the reading of the
document, although it is not attributedSLVAXU, as 1understand from
the witneçs. Iyou wish to read it, subject to conneup, 1would have
no objections.
The PRESIDEN S there anything to indicate on the document that
it emanatcç from SlVANU?
Mr.DAHLMAN FNom SWANU.
The PKESIDENT : here does thaappear on the document?
Mr. DAHL~~A :InNWindhoek.
The PRESIDEE T: ,where does it appear in the document?
hlrDAHL~IANH Be:reSir.
The PRESIDEST I:ould you indicateby reading it, where it appears
in the document that it emanates froSlVANU.
Mr. DAHLMANK l's, Sir, it is the letterhea"South West Africa
National Union: Main and Basic Resoiution. This nationaI conference
held at Windhoek from 30 May to I June 1964 reject... [and so on]".
Mr.G~oss: Thank you, Sir.
Mr.DAHLMAN ANnd then may 1refer to a United Nations document,
A/AC.rog/Pet.215,13 April1964. It is acombined petition frSWANU
and SWAPO, and at the end of this petition the authors Say:
"Our recornmendationç-
I. Recommend that the Secretary-GeneralU Thant should now çend
the United Nations Police Force,omposed of military personnel
drawn from the Afro-Asian States, imrnediately, whose tasks ivill
or should bethe following:
(a) todisarm al1European mercenaries who have. moved into
the Territory, including al1White settlers and clvilianç, most
of whom of course are South African;
(b) to repatriatal1South African citizens;
(cj to save and protect the lives and property of al1the inhabi-
tants irtheTerritory untit a duly elected African majority
peoples government is elected."
Ml.G~oss:1s that all, Sir? Now, in the document to which you have
just referred, the Peti215nwhich you have cited, is it not corrSir,
that on page8 of that same joint Petition the foiiowing statement ap-
pears :
"LVe urge every western country mhich iç opposed to aparthtod
join the United Nations callto end South Africa's Mandate over
South M'estAfrica, in supporfor an Africannon-racial democratic
government, that would be voted for bal1peoples oftheTerritory WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
439
without distinction on the basis of colour, but on thbaçis of one
man one vote."
That is in the document to lvhich you have referred, is it not, Sir, on
page 87
Mr. DAIILMAN1 N:have not seen it, butI assume that it is perfectly
correct.
&Ir.GRCISÇ :. it your interpretationof the failure or refusal of an
organization in the Territory not to CO-operatewith \'hites, that declara-
tions or statements are made by the organization or individuaIs which
centre upon the policy of apartheid, andthe cal1for one man one vote?
1sthat the basis upon which you £rameyour analysis, that these organiza-
tions, this onei~particular, is not prepared to CO-operatewith LVhites,
to use your expression?
MT. DAHLMAN Nl. President, most of these organizations are pre-
pared to CO-operatewith Whites under one contlition, and this one con-
dition is majority rule. Certain organizations advocate qualified franchise
for Whites, and others are going so far, they advocate kiIthe CVhites.
hir. GROSSN: OW, Sir, wouldYOU consider, and1 will not prolong this
point beyond this question, un1essyou wish to add to it, the failure or
refusalon the part of the Whites to deal with the non-Whites on a basis
other than denial to the non-Whites of a franchise, to be a refusal to
CO-operatewith the non-Whites?
hlrDAHLMANN No:,Mr. President, attempts have been made especi-
ally to consult the political leaders. That hastheecasewith the Oden-
daal Comniission. The Odendaal Commission invited everyone in the
Terntory to have discussion with the Commission,and the Administrator
of South \$'est Africwrote twice to Hosea Kutako, who is the leader of
the biggest opposition group, and invited him, for discussion, to ad-
ministration. The hst invitation was refused by Hosea, he said he Ras
not prepared to corne, andto the second invitation the Administrator did
not get any reply.
Mr. GROS: Now, Sir, 1would likc to know, just for the completion of
this story that you have just reported, whether yourefamiliar with the
reaçoiis which were given by Chief Kutako for 1-efusalto participate in
the consultations on the basis proposed?
Rfr. DAHLMANO N: the first occasion, thatwas in January 1964,
Hosea Kutako said that he did not have time enough to discuss this
matter with his tieadmen; and the second rejectio~i of the invitatioI
cannot judge because there is no reaction whatsoever from the side of
Hosea Kutako.
Mr. GROSS : OUare not aware of any imposition of restriction based
upon the pass laws and the Iength of time for which he was offeredop-
portunity to stayfor consultations? Are you awue of that?
Mr. UAHL~IAN N :. He is entitled to stay as long as he wishes in
Windhoek as he is,as far asI know, csempted irom the pas la%, and
he is entitled tostay as long as he wishes in Windhoek, and the same
applies to his driver and, J.think, to his cook, itmight be to one or
two of his servants, bu1 am not sure of that; but1am pretty sure that
itappIies to hirn personally, to his cook ato his dnver.
$21" G~oss: One more question-would you have information con-
cerning whether Chief Kutako made clear in writing to the Administrator
that the Hereros were opposed to the proposed Bantustan or homeland
proposal? SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. DAHLMANIN am not quite sure whether he wrote a Ietter to that
extent to the Administrator, but he issued a number of press releases,
and itis 1 think well known in the Territory that he is opposed to these
Odendaal plans. Although 1 know he has rcceived a wrjtten inviiation
from the Odendaal Commission to appear before the Odendaal Corn-
mission and to discuss matters with the Commission, he refused to
appear before that Commission.
Mr. GROSS1 :will turn now to your testimony on Friday last in the
verbatim record to which 1 have referred at page 474, supra. You
referred there at that page, Mr. Dahlmann, to what 1 may fairly charac-
terize, may 1 not, as abortive attempts on the part of SWAPO and
Kapuuo of the Wereros to organize a national convention. Perhaps it
might be cIearer iI read the two or three sentences to whichI refer.in
response to a question by learned counsel you stated as follows:
"A new attempt to corne to a CO-operation with SWAPO failed.
Within South West Africa, Kapuuo, the Chief designate of the
Hereros, tried to organize a national convention. As many non-
White personalities as possible should participate. The national con-
vention was supposed to take place in May 1964. The convention
had to be postponed,"
Then you went on with reference to a statement issued by an individual.
Now the postponement of the convention was occasioned by what cir-
cumstance, if you know?
Mr.DAHLMAK YN:s, 1 am aware of that. ~he'first convention was
supposed to take place in Rehoboth, and the organizers did notget per-
mission to hoïd this convention in Rehoboth. 1was told by the authorities
that the Basterraad-that is, the local authority there-haobjected to
this national convention being held at Rehoboth; and then the second
convention was supposed totake place some weeks later in Okakarara,
in the Waterberg East Reserve, and on that occasion the magistrate in
Otjiwarongo issued only permits for Hereros because it is an Herero
Reserve; and then the Hereros said "Under these circumslances we are
not prepared to hold this convention in Okakar;uaWA . ta later stageas
1 said in my evidence, Kapuuo, 1 think it was in August-September,
issued this press statement that this certain meeting hadaken place in
Windhoek, and after that NUDO came into existence. He was attacked
by one of his opponents, by Kozonguizi, and Kozonguizi said "Why
didn't they have this meeting in [Vindhoek?" because, round about the
same time, SWANU had its annual national conference in Windhoek-it
was actually exactly at the same time, at the end of May-beginning of
June.
Mr.GROSS :Othat isit not correcttoSay that the reason for the post-
ponernent-in fact, it was a doublepostponement- vas denial of per-
mission on the part of the Governrneiit in both situations?
Rlr.DAHLMANN: No, that is not quite so-1said the postponement of
the first meeting was due to the factthat the Basterraad in Rehoboth
objected to that meeting, and 1 think one of the rcasons was the possi-
bilityof trouble there because another national liberation front was
already in existence at that stage-that was the South West Africa
National Liberation Front, this combination of SWAPO and SVITANU,
and the Chiefs council refused to CO-operatewith this National Libera-
tion Front, although he waç invited to participate; aso one could have WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 49'
expected some disturbances, or something like that, in Rehoboth.
Rehoboth isonly 60 miles soiith of Windhoek, ancl it would have been
possible that these SWANLF people would have been interested in
disturbing this meeting.
Mr. G~oss: Do you wish the Court to infer from your testimony on
this point, Mr. Dahlmann, that the organization had difficulty in or-
ganizinga national conventiobecause of anyreaçonotherthan difficul-
ties of finding a suitable place and time and requisite permission, for
whatever reason?
Mr. DAHLMAN ItNi:a fact that the magistrate in Otjiwarongo, or the
assistant magistrate,it was actually, only allowed Hereros to takepart,
and it is aIso known that 1 personally was not in agreement with this
restriction, and you wifindin our paper a leader to the effect that 1
was of the opinion that permission should have been granted.
MT. G~oss: Was one of the reasons, perhaps, why you objected to it
that you considered that it encouraged or fostered inter-tribal unity-is
thhlr.DAHLMANon yoNo:whygneshouldn't they have their meeting?-that
ismy attitude, andIdid not espect any dificulties, althowas of the
opinion that not many tribal or political leaders would attend that
meeting, but why shouldn't they trpthat?
Mr.GROS:You know of no reasons ~hy they were not allowed to do
so,then.Did you receive any response to your communication, or was it
a communication? This was an editorial, was it?
Rlr. DAHLMA NTNhatwas an edito~ial, yes.
Mr. GROSS1 : see. Did you at that time, or rhortly thereafter, corne
across in your study of the petitiofilewith the United Nations, as
to which you have testifiea,communication from Chief Kutako, Chief
Witbooi and Mr. Louw (the Chairman of the Rehoboth Burghers), a
letterofII May 1964to the Secretary-Gencral cifthe United Nationç-
this is in (tocurnent A/AC.~og/Pet.z~x/Add.~? Are you familiar with
this letter 1:owhich I cal1your attention?
hIr. DAHLMANN NO:,I am not.
Mr. GROSS: In that petition or communication to the Secretary-
General, these threc gentlemen-is it not correct, incidentally, to Saythat
Chief Kutako is an Herero, the Herero Chief?
Mr. DAHLMAN YNes, correct.
Rlr.GROSS Chief H. S.Witbooi is of what tribe?
Mr. DAHLMAN Nama, Krantzplatz Narna.
Mr. GROSS: And Mr. Louw, as it appears here, is Chairman of the
Rehoboth Burghers?
Mr. DAHLMA :NXhairman of the Rehoboth Burghers' Association.
the Rehoboth Rurghers-whatey race or ethnic grouping are they undertion,
the census classification-athey Coloureds, or Basters,.. .?
h4r.I~HLMAN NNO,they are Basters.
Mr. GROSSY : es. Now, these three gentlemen tvho signed this petition
were not al1of the same partorracial group, 1 take 1sthat correct?
The PIIESIDEND T:you know at al1,witness? (Zanyou give an answer,
one way or the other, to the question whicll is put: were they of different
tribal or of different political associations?
Mr. GROSST : hese three gentlemen.
Mr.DAHLMAN At:that stage Hosea Kutakhad no political organiza-4g2 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
tion behind him except the Chiefs council.HUDO was not in esistence
at that time. Allan Louw was the Chairrnan of the Burghers' Association
-that is a semi-political organization, and each 12ehoboth citizen
belongs to that Burghers' Association; and Chief Hendrik Samuel Wit-
booi is the Chief of 500 Krantzplatz Namas,
Mr.GROSS W:ould you say, as a political observer and analyst, that
this representedan attempt on the part of these chiefs or leaders to forrn
an inter-tribal political organization in the form of a convention? Would
you agree to that statement?
Ni. DAHL&IXSS Blany attempts have been made to form s united
front, oneparty, to which al1the other organizations should belong-that
was SWANLF and again NUDO-and rnay 1 add that 1have said it in
rny evidence: later, after NUDO had been formed, Chief Witbooi wrote a
petition tothe United Nations that he had nothing to do with NUDO,
although he appears on the cornmittee member list as the Assistant Party
Leader.
Mr. G~oss: 1 am sure that ifyou misunderstood my question you
would wish to ançwer it directly,if possible, although as fully as you
wish; my question was whether as a political analyst pou regarded this as
an attempt on the part ofthese three gentlemeil to form an inter-tribal
political movement through a national convention-can you answer that
yes or no?
Mr. DAHLYAWY Ne:s, theywere trying todo that.
BIr. GROSS:In this letter to the Secretary-General to which 1 have
referred, these three gentlemen whom me have now identified said as
follows, and 1 quote from the document, beginning oii page 2-this is to
the Secretary-General of the United Nations, II May 1964:
'"We have the honour to inform you that the peoplof South West
Africa decided to hold a National Convention at Rehoboth, South
West Africa, on May 7 1964to bring about political unity among the
people of South West Africa. The administrator for South West
Africa refused to allow the holding of a convention saying that he
would not allow 'White ants' toassemble at Rehoboth. After the
administrator had refused to allow the people to convene at Reho-
both, the people asked to be allowed to hold the National Conven-
tion at Okakarara in the Waterberg Native Reserve butthe Govern-
ment replied that only the Hereros would be allowed to hold a
meeting at Okakarara (see enclosures). As the convention was in-
tended for alithe people of South West Africa and not for the
Hereros alone, the Hereros refused to hold a meeting for the Hereros
alone. The South African Government is fond of making the pro-
paganda that the tribes in SouthWest Africa are hostile towards one
another and that is why the Government is dividing them to prevent
war. To prove that this propaganda is false is that the tribes them-
selves called for a national convention and its the South African
Government which refused in arder to divide the tribes.
A national convention in South West Africa is absolutely neces-
sary and we ask the United Nations to intenrene soas to enable the
people of South West Africa to hold the said National Convention
soon."
And then it was signed by these three gentlemen. Now the enclosures to
which the letter refers-to complete the record liere-is a telegram to WITNESSËS AND EXPERTS 493
the hlagistrate at Otjiwarongo from Chief Hosea Kutako and Chief
Samuel Witbooi-"Kindly give us permission to hold national conven-
tion at Olkakarara Waterberg Native Reserve Nay 7 toIO 1964". The
answer, enclosure I in the document, Windhoek, I May 1964 addressed
to Kutako-"Permission granted to Hereros only, report Magistrate
Otjewarongo", signed, "Magistrate Fig".
Now Sir, would you regard this,in your capacity as an expert, political
analyst and observer, as an attempt on the pait of the Government to
prevent a meeting at which more than onc tribi: would be present?
Mr. DAIILMAK N :.President, may 1 refer to certain parts of this
document. I am convinced ...
The PRESDENT : Oyou have the document in front of you?
hlr.DAHLMANN XO.
The PRESIDENT : OUmust have a very good memory if you can
remember it. What did you want to say?
hlr.DAHLMANN The administrator has been iluoted in this document
as having said "White ants"-that he does not allow "White ants" to
meet there.1 think it is more or lessimpossible because the administrator
is trying to get theO-operationof the different groups and1 think it is
not the policy of the Government to prevent the different parties from
uniting because there is one example-SWAPO and SWANU have
formed the National Liberation Front. Although the leaders abroad,
SWAPO aiid SUTANUleaders are highly antagoriistic towards each other
and 1 think ii is not fair to say that the Governmeisalways trying to
divide the different tribes because then one should think that the leaders
abroad would be united but u7eare far away frorrlthat situation, they are
even more hostile towards each other than the leiiders within South West
Africa. 1would not like to refer to or rely on statements made on the
occasion of political meetings-thereis always an emotionaI effect or the
politicians arexcited-1 would only rely on written staternents to the
United Nations or within their publications and statements to the press.
Mr. GROSS: Now Sir, 1 would Iike to cal1to your attention another
petition. Thisis likewise from Chief Kutako and Chief Samuel Witbooi
and isin document A/AC ~ogPetition No. 211,dated 13 April1964. In
this Petition is incIuded the following exchange on pag4: There is an
enclosure in the fozm of a letter dated 30 January 1964 from Chief
Kutako to the Adrninistrator which I will read:
"His Honour the Administrator,
Government Buildings, Windhoek.
Sir, I hereby wish to apply for permits for myself and fifteen
other persons to go to Ovamboland, Kai3koveld and Okavango
Native Reserves for the purposc of propagating the idea of one
political party for South West Africa. Our aim is to leave Windhoek
on 15 February r964 and to return on 15 March 1964. Yours faith-
fully, Hosea Kutako."
Enclosure 3 in the United Nations document which 1have cited is dated
Windhoek, 4 February 1964,and is addressed to Senior Headman Hosea
Kutako, Windhoek-
"Sir,
Subject request for permits for yourself and fifteen others to visit
Ovamboland, Kaokoveld and the Okavangci Bantu areas.
In reference to your letter of 30 Januar1964 addressed to: His494 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Honour the Administrator for South West Africa, a copy of which
has been referred to me forattention1 regret to have to info~myou
that your request cannot be acceded to. Yours faithfully, Chief
Bantu Afiairs Cornmissioner for South West Africa."
Now Sir, do you have any reason to question the authenticity or veracity
of the exchange?
Mr. DAHLMAN N :, Mr. President. One explanation is that before a
permit is granted to go to any Reserve the authoritieswithin the Reserve
are consulted-that means the Black authorities, the Chiefs and Head-
men. From my persona1observations I know that these Chiefsand Head-
men are highly opposed to the party of Hosea Kutako and that applies
also tothe political organization which exisin Ovamboland with minor
support at the moment-this organization had quite remarkable support
in 1962.The SWAPO organization is highly opposed to Chief Wosea
Kiitako's NUDO.So thcre jsthe possibjlity that the Chiefsand Headmen
were consulted-the Government is consulting them regularly if these
occasions arise-and they might have been opposed to it.
Mr. GROSS :s this purely conjecturc on your part, Sir,or do you have
any information 01 ...?
Rlr.DAHLMANN N:ot about this specific case. 1 only know about the
general attitude and that applies to ail the Reserves. These decisions are
only taken after consultations with the local non-White authorities.
Mr.CROSS: So that Sir,on the basis ofyour knowledgeof the Territory
and the distance, speedin communications and the like, your assumption
would be, as an expert or otherwise, that between the letter dated 30
January and the response dated 4 February, in that interval the Chiefsin
consulted and have advised the Administrator of their objection to this
proposed visit. Would that be your understanding, on the basis of your
knowledge of the Territory, as a probable situation?
Mr. DAHLMAXN It: is technically possible.
Mr.G~oss:1would like now to turn to a broader line of your testimony
and would like to tie it in with what we have been discussing-towhich
1propose to return-that is, the attemptsto form inter-tribal or national
political organizations and the reasons why they have aborted. I should
like first, however, so that you and the honourable Court may follow
more closely the line and purpose of my questions, to refer to your
testimony in the verbatim record on page 458, s@rn, and thus your
analysis as a witness andlor an expert concerning what you described as
the factors behind the politicai developments in South West Africa-
obviouçly a matter of great concern in this case. On page 458of this ver-
bath record, you testified as foiiows:
". ..without keeping in mind certain basic facts and foxces it iç
practically impossible to understand the attitude, activities and
antagonism which manifest themselves in the political sphere in
South West Africa".
And then later on at the same page, you referred arnong other things to-
"the factor of Black nationalism or Pan-Africanism". Sir,as related to
that, on page 459you stated as follows in1 believe, the same contest:
"Another factor is, as1 rnentioned, the Black nationalism in
Africa. Tllat is, of course. a force behind certain political movements
in South West Africa. The central idea is, Afnca for the Africans. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 495
The 1i:adersof certain political organizations in South West Africa
who are living abroad are trying to import these ideas to South West
Africa"
That is a correct version of your testimony as you recall it, Sir? Then
specifically with respect to certain aspects of the situation, you testified
on page 470, sup~a,of the same verbatim record that the Chiefs and
Headmen, you were refemng to Ovamboland at that point-"even asked
for the implementation of the political part of the Odendaal Plan". Then
on page 471,you referred to the Chief's CouncilofHosea Kutako and you
testifie:
"The so-caLledChief's Councilof Hosea Kutako is the strongest
non-White anti-government group in South West Africa ... They
are mainly responsible for the interna1 campaign apzinst the Govern-
ment."
1 put to you, if 1 may, Sir, the following questioiis: in the first place,
could you advise the Court what is the civil status of Natives in South
]Test Africa? Are they citizens so far as you are amare, Sir?
kirDAHLMAN : Ir. President, for non-IVhiteç we have different, as 1
explained inmy evidence, nations in South West Africa, for example the
Herero Nation, the Ovambo Nation and the Namas are more or less
divided into different tribes and the same applies to the Darnara. If you
ask one of the non-Whites in South West Africa: lvhat are you, they Say
1 am a Herero, am an Ovambo, oi 1am Damara, or sometimes they say
1 am a Kaffir or 1 am a Rehoboth Burgher. Thr~tis actually the answer
yoMr. GRCISSn C:an you answer rny question whether by law the non-
Whites are citizenç in South West Africa, or do you not know, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMANS No:, definitely not.
&Ir.GROSÇ: They are definitely not citizens?
hlr. DAHLMANN NO: South West African citizenship exists. It never
existed.
Mr. GROS SNow, Sir, are the non-Ihites of South West Africa citizens
of South Africa?
Mr. DAHLMA N:Whenever non-Whites from South West Africa leave
South West Africa and need travel documents, asfaras 1know, they get
a South African passport.
Nr. GROSSS :ir, are non-Whites resident in South West Africa citizens
of South West Africa or do you not know, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAN X:an only repeat what 1 saiti.
Mr, GROSSB :ut do you know what legislation, if any, governs this
subject, as part of your political studies of the situation, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMANT Nh:e Minister for Bantu Affairs in South Africa.
Mr. GROSS1:beg your pardon, Sir. Let me talk about a person, a non-
White person in South West Africa, who has not applied for a passport
to South Africa, has no intention of going then:, buwantç to find out
whether or not heis acitizen of the Rcpublic of South Africa. Could you
answer tha.t question, on the basis of your own knowledge, Sir?
The PRESIDEXT W:hat is that questionMr. Gross?
Mr. GROSSP :ardon me, Sir?
The PRES~DENTd :id not follow the question.
hlr. GROSS :eç,Sir. I beg your pardon, Si1.will try to clarify it. If '
non-White, himself reçident in South West Africa, does not apply foa SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
496
passport, but merely wishes to know what his status is in South West
Africa, do you, or do you not know, whether hes, or is noa,citizen of
the Republic of South Africa?
hlr.DAHLMAXN M:r. President, he himself knows what heisand he
knows: "1am a Nama, 1 am a Herero, 1am Ovambo", and 1have never
heard that this question arose.
&Ir.GROSS : o you regard it as-1 askyou asa political expert and
analyst-a factor in an individualrelationshito the politiciif ofhis
cornmunity to know whether or not he is a citizen?
hlrDAHLMANH N: is part and parce1ofhis own nation, in the first
instance, and there are these close tribal and national links, however one
wants tocal1them, within this community and he cannot regard himself
asanything else than heis.
Mr.G~oss: Sir, you1 believe, have testified that you yourself came to
South West Africa in1958from Germany. 1s that correct?
Mr. DAHLMANT Nh:at icorrect.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, have you acquired citizenship since your arriva1
in South West Africa?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:esMr. President, 1 have.
Mr. GROSS :Oyou know, Sir, then if you are a citizen of the Republic
of South Africa? You obviously do.
Mr. DAHLMAX :Nes,1 know that.
hlr.GROSS ,ow, in the case of a non-iVhite, who, let us waç,born
inIVindhoek, has lived there all his lifam1taking thatasa hypolhet-
ical example-and he wishes to know whether he is, or is noa,citizen
of the RepublicofSouth Africa, how can he find out and what wihe be
told-ifyou know, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMANN H:ecan findthat out from the Department ofBantu
Afîairs.
hlr. G~oss: And what would the Minister of Rantu Affairs tell him-if
you know, Sir?
hlr.RAHLM-am 1 do not know.
Ali.GROSS :OUdo not know, Sir, what he would be told?
Mr. DAHLMAXN N O.
Mr. G~oss: Are the non-\mites regarded as,to usea phrase thathas
been used in the tes tir non,ojourners, orternporar residcnts inthe
southern sector irrespective of the length of timcTlttic they have lived,
or may live,iiithat scctor?
Mr. DAHLMANX hr. President, thatappliesespecially, doubtless, to
the Ovambo, to the migrant labour and that is not a Government law,
that isa tribal law. The Chiefs are interestinkeeping these tribal or
national links. They, therefore, not allow families to leave Ovambo-
land, only the men are allowed to go to the southern sector and the men
have to go back to Ovamboland to look after the family aftea certain
period. The Iength of thiseriod is discussed with the tribal authorities
and so he regards himself as an Ovambo, as belonging to his nation, to
his Ovambo nation.
Rlr.GROSS N:OW ,ir, during the period after you had arriinSouth
West Africa and priortoyour obtaining citizenship of South Africa-that
was, incidentaily, for how long a period? For how long a period prior to
the conferment of South African citizenship?
hIrDAHLMA NFNive years,
Mr. G~oss: During that period of five years, what rights-let me EVITXESSES AND EXPERTS 497
exclude voting,if 1may-if any, were you denied because you were not
a citizen of theepublic of South Africa?
Mr. DAHLMAN VN:ting rights, of course, and some other rights, but
the same restrictions apply also to South ilfrican citizens. For example,
1 cannot go, no White is allowed go to the non-White townships with-
out a permit. Although the non-Whites are entitled to corne to my office
or to my Iiouse without a permit1 am not allowed to go to the Native
Reserves without a permit,
Mr. GROSS :OUare not allowed to go as a White or is the fact that
you are not allowed to go withouapermit because you are, or were not,
a citizen? I am not certain, Sir, that 1 understood the point of your
response.
Mr. DAIILMASK 1 aid that applies alstoSouth Airican citizens.
Mr. GROSS 'es, Sir. Can you, for the benefit of the Court, indicate
what, if any, rights, other than voting, you were debyereason of the
fact that you were not a citizen during those five yeara?
Mr. DAHLMASK For example, when 1 was supposed to leave Wind-
hoek, 1 had to go to Immigration and tell them: "Now 1 am going to
Cape Town", for example. I could not take another employment for a
certain pei-iod.1was not allowed to do t;1 think for three years 1liad
to stay in this employment. Athe moment, that is al11 can think of.
Mr.GKOSS : ith respect to the requirement, for example, of remaining
in that employment for three years, is thatule ofgeneral application
to Whites and non-Whites alike, if thcy were not citizens? Did you
understand my question, Sir?
Mr. DAIIL~~AN N s, 1 understand it. That applies only to foreigners.
&Ir.GRC~S TS: jVhite foreigners?
&Ir.DAIILMANN 1:think to White foreigners.
Mr. GROSS A:lone, Sir?
Mr. DAIILMAX :S1think so.
&Ir.GROSS: With respect to the rights which pertain to, Iet us say,
owning or leasing of Iand or rights pertaining to advancement or promo-
tion, you were not subject to any restrictions because you were not a
citizen, were you, Sir?
>Ir.DAEIL~IAN N :,there were some restrictions, as 1rnentioned.
hlr.GRCISS O:f the sorI have indicated, Sir?
Mr.DAIILMAN N :e could not be pronioted, because you had to re-
main in the same job and you had to get permissionforexample, when
1bccame the editor ... 1 came to South iVest Africa and wss Assistant
Editor and aftera short timeIhad to become Editor because there was
nobody else any more and so we had to apply for that.
3lr.G~oss: This is what 1 was lcading to1 think you testified that
when you came to South West Africa,you came as Assistant Editor?
Mr. DAIIL~~A YCo;rrect.
hlr.GRCISS A:nd 1think you testified that in about two years,istot
Say, whilc you were stiaforeigner, a non-citizen, you were promoted to
Editor 7
3lr.DAIILMAN :KYes.
Mr. GROSS: There was obviously, then, no obstacle placed to your
promotion by reason ofyour non-citizenship, SiItïvouId follow, would
it not?
MT. DAIILMANN The aiithorities had to be informed about it.
Mr. GKC~S BS:t there werc no restrictions placed upit? 4g8 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. DAHLMAN N':ey did not refuse permission.
Mr. GROÇÇ:1 am interested in the aspect of your testimony which
relates to what you described, on page 470, supra, of your testimony,
as the "political part of the Odendaal plan" and the factor which you
apparently had in mind, Sir, in connection with the attitude of the Chiefs
inOvamboland to whom you referred and of the Herero Chiefs, to whom
you referred,as,in the one case apparently favouring the plan, and in the
other case strongly opposing it. This is your testirnony, is it not, Sir?
With respect to the attitudestoward the political part of the Odendaal
plan-again.to use your words-would you say, Sir, that such attitudes
are properly to be regarded as materially influencing political develop-
ment among the non-White inhabitants of the Territorji?
Mr. DAHLMAN N : Umean the attitude of the Ovambos?
Mr.GROSS L:etme clarifmy question. hlr. Muller, at p465, supra,
of the verbatim record asked you a very broad question which included
your comments-your testimony. The reference which1 have in rnind is
that thepoints to which your testimony would be directed would include
the circumstances and conditions in South West Africa which materially
influence political developments amongstthe non-White inhabitants of
the Territory.Then, as 1believe 1have read before, in the testimony of
Friday Mr. hluller asked you, ai pag458, supra:
"Now wiil you tell the Court whether there are certain factors
which influence the existence of and support for political parties
amongst the indigenous population of the Territory"?
Now, my question to you, and 1think I can state it quite simply, is
would you Say,Sir, that the attitudefor or against the political section
. ofthe Odendaal pian, as you called it, woulbe one of the factors which
rnaterially influence political attitudes in South West Africa among the
non-White inhabitants?
Mr. DAHLMAN N:, 1 think that they are Cornpletely diffcrensub-
jects.
Mr. G~oss: Sir,the attitudestoward the Odendaal plan, to which 1
shall invite your attention shortly-do they, in your expert opinion,
materially orotherwise influence political movements, political activities,
political attitudes ine Territory7
Mr.DAHLMAXX A:Sfar asthe partieswhich are in oppositionare con-
cerned, yes.
Mr. GROSS Asfar as the parties are concerned who have any attitude
toward the plan, for or against,s rny question. Do you regard thiasa
material and relevant factor in connection with political attitudes and
developments in the Territory?
Mr.DAHLMANN I:think 1mentioned in my evidence that most of the
political parties are against the implementation of the Odendaal plan.
The only semi-political organization in favour of the Odendaal pisthe
South West Africa Coloured Organization. 1alsomentjoned that al1these
parties, evceptNUDO, do noi enjoy the support of the majority of the
respectivegroups which they represent.
Mr. GROSS : ow, Sir, with respect to the petition to which yhave
referred-the A/AC 109 Petition 215, 13 April1964, which is a petition
from the South West Africa National Union and the South West Africa
Peoples Organization and was addressed to the Special Cornmittee at the
United Nations. That iç the document to which you referred is it not, Sir,
in your teçtimony today? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 499
hlr. DAIILLIA :TNhat is correct,
BIr. G~oss: Noiv, Sir, is itnot a fact that the joint petition by these
two organizations stated in very strong terms the comrnon opposition
of both of these organizations to the imp1emt:ntation of the political
sections of the Odendaal plan?
BIr.DAIILMAN :YNes.
hIr. GROS S1sit correct to Saythat on page 2 they said, after referring
to the plan in the report, the following:
"The report of this prejudiced Odendaal Commission has caused
expectediy serious tension among the African population of South
IVestAfrica. The fundamental reason for this Verwoerd South Africa
Commission has been to further intensify apartheid policies, en-
trencli the position of the White settlers, thc majority ofwhom corne
from South Africa, They have remained South African citizens and
to regularize their positioof dual citizenship they are encouraging
their South African Government to annex our motherland South
West Africa into South Africa, by force if that should ever become
necessary."
1 pause there, Sir. I am not asking you to comment, unless you wish
to, on whether this is a correct Iegal, political or practical statemen1,
am addressing it to you for my subsequent qut:stion as a statement of
attitude, right or wrong, on the partof these organizations.
The next sentence is,is it not, Sir-1 willgoback to read each of these,
if the President permits me to do so?
The PKESIDENTH : as the witness got a copy of this petition in front
of him?
Rir. G~oss: It is the onehe cited.
The PRESIDENTY : ouhave it?
Mr.UAHLMANN Ye:s.
hIr.G~oss: To complete the thought, 1will go back over it. There will
be plenty of opportunity to comment, Sir, if you wish.
"It was further to pave the way for the introduction of the most
abhorrent Bantustan programme, or partition scheme, that wiIl
followtheir trail. The sketching of the country into Bantustans has
one result:promoting a racial war between the indigenous peoples
and the White settlers. The Odendaal Commission scheme, de-
scribed as the Five-Year Plan, is just a five-year plan of apartheid to
introduce Bantustan apartheid programme in South West Africa
much against the wishes of the African inajority peoples in the
Territory."
Now, Sir, 1wiil break this down for you if yoilvishand the President
permits-1. take it that you would agree that this is a strongly worded
and rather emotional statement concerning the attitude of these party
leaders toward the pian? You would agree to tliat, Sir, would you not?
hlr. DAIILMANN Y:eç, Mr. Preçident, that is correct. Nany of these
petitions are very strongly u,orded and 1could refer to a petition with
even st~ongerwolding where it suggests that the Whitesettlers should be
killed, but 1 think 1 also said that SWANU and SWAPO enjoy very
limited support in South \;ITestAfrica and 1 only want to mention one
example. When thesc chiefs and headmen of Ovamboland wrote to the
Pnme Minister and the contcnts of the letter were published, there ivas
no reactioii from SitTAPOwithin the Territory, The Acting President of500 SOUTH WEST AFRICA .
SWAPO in South West Africa, Nathaiiiel Mahuiriri in Walvis Bay, wrote
at that very stage to me and he complained about the behaviour of the
Superintendent of the Walvis Bay Location.
Altliough 1 admit it icornpIetely impossible to Say how many mern-
bers these organizations have, because one should have access ta the
membership lists, ifthey exist, these political leaders of course claim that
the majority of their respective people are behind them. If 1 may stress
that point a little, to show mhat support they cIairn to have: if you take
only three organizations, that isS\IrAI'O,SWAVU and UNIPP, which
is unknown in South West Africa and which does not exist any more, but
for al1 practical purposes one can say NACIP-National Convention
Independence Party-UNIPP-United Namib Independent Peoples
Party-and NUUO-National Unity Democratic Organization-arc the
same. Then you come to the fantastic figure that these three organizations
hairesupport of 345,90 r0embers. Thc Gcneral Secretary of UNIPP, for
exarnple-SWANU says that this person does not existat all, but he
claims in a petition to the United Nations that UNIPP has 245,000
members.
If 1 may quote this petition to the United Nations (Doc. A/AC 109
Petition 279 Add. 3), a petition from Izilima Sokokoina, Secretary-
General of the United Namib Independent Peoples Party (UNIPP) con-
cerning South West Africa.
"Please allow me to explain the information of UNIPP to your
estecmed orgnnization. In every colonially oppressed country in
Africa the liberation movement of the indigenous masses has always
needed a spark of life which can only be inspired after contact with
a great national leader-a leader with a love for the soi1 of his
rnother-country. In this country, South West Africa, here after to
be called the land of Namib, such a leader hasatleast succeeded in
gaining the recognition ofhis people.At last the people of Knmib
have acclaimed as a great shining star that illustrious, beloved son
of the land Dr. hlburumba Kerena. To us our mighty Kerena is as
Nkrumah of Ghana, the Banda of hlalawi,he is Ourredeetner, forced
to a lonely exile in the desert of Bechuanaland; our leader fias
incessantly pleaded with his countrymen to stop the age-old bicker-
ings and suspicions inherent in his strife-torn tribal country.
With his great knowledge of international and human affairs, Our
leadercould see that freedom tvould come to Namib only after a11
rival political parties had disappeared and one liberation movernent
formed. In vain he pleaded with the leader of SWAPO, SWANU,
and different tribesto stop being sectional and to form bnly one
nationalmovement .. ."
The PRESIDEKT >Ir.DahImann, what is the purpose of quoting this in
al1 the detail in answer to the question which was put to you by &Ir.
Gross? What is the inference or the conclusion you are seeking to draw
from al1this?
Mr. DAHLMANN TOgive an impression of how the other parties, also
the United Front, were thinking about the support of SWAPO and
SWANU. air. Gross referredto these two organizations and their opposi-
tion to the Odendaal plan, and I said in my evidence that 1 am of the
opinion that these two organizations,S\VAPO and SWANU, enjoy only
limited support-numerically limited support. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 501
The PRESIDENT:What do you rilean by limited support numerically?
Have you got any figure in your minci at all?
Rfr.DAHLMANX This organization, which does not esist any more,
and that is why I quote itfrom this document, the Secretary-General of
this party later makes the statement that his party represents 245,000
people.
The PRESIDENT 1:s that, in your opinion correct?
Mr.DAHLMAN That is completely incorrectSWAPO claimed to have
go,goo, aecording to a statement made by the Acting President of
SWAPO, in 1962; at the beginning of this yenr, he clainied thSWAPO
had a membersliip of only 60,000. His oyponents, the same people who
are CO-operatingwith S\.Z7APOwithin SIVAYU, deiiy thatand ...
hlr. G~oss: Mr. President,1 have no objectioii to this response of
question, ifthe Court please. It icompletely unresponsive to the intent
of mlr qui:stion, hlr. President, and i1 could reframe rny question to
clarify it, it would Save a lot of tirne.
The PRESIIIISNTT : he great dificulty,Mr. Grass, is that you ask a
witness to cornnient upon a long statement, well then givesa comment,
and 1 do not think itasçists the Court to gigreat detail onthe strength
of it, butlonetheless,ifmay be forgiven for saying so, it is because you
do not put your questions specifically to him, you invite a comment and
SOU get it, that is why I am seeking to find from the witness what his
conclusion was.
Can you not finishwhat you have got to sayon this particularmatter
fairly quickly,Mr. Uahlmann?
hlr. DAHLMANN Y eç, very quickly, fiIr. President1 only want to
quote one sentence from Fueedom. SIVANU interilritional organ, June-
August 1965,page g :
"SWAPO is fighting. Ithns 90,000 meinbers-bigger and older
than S\VANU. One cari now safely say that al1 this hypocritical
nonsense was and is merely for journalistic and outside financial
backers' consumption purely and simply."
The PRISSIDENT 1:suppose it aladds up tothis: the claims by various
parties as to the numbers of adherents they had, are in your opinion
unreliable and not correct.
Mr. DAHLMANT Nh:at is correct, hlr. President.
The PRESIDENT:\\'el], that could have been said in very simple
language.
Mr. GROSS: AIT.President,rnay 1 revert to iny intended question? 1
have observcd the admonition and respect it deeply, Sir, because Iget
myself into difficulty otherwise. 1 had not realized that 1 had asked for
comment, 1thoiight that 1had lenrnt better, Sir1 thought 1 had asked
the witness, and now jntend to pursue it in this forni, to express agree-
ment or disagrcement, or indicate in what respects, if any, information
ismong.
1will now refer to asecond petition which relates to the opposition to
the Odendaal Commission report and the political plan to mhich you
referred in your testirnonySir,at the.pageI have cited. 1 refer nowtoa
petition from mernbers of the tribal cornmittee of the Damaras, con-
cerning South West Africa, AIAC.1ogjPet.217, 13 April 1964, and at
page 6, this ia very brief excerpt which 1 shall read:
"kf7T'jtrheference to the communication that the Damaras [p.41,502 SOUTH U'ESTAFRICA
by means of Chief Gorseb, gave their approval with the intentions
for Bantustans as resumed [I think that means assummarised] in
the Odendaal Report, and as explained by the Minister to Vet Ne1
at Okombahe, the tribal committee of the Damaras wished to
declare as follow:
I. The Damaras areagainst the procedure which \vasfollowed
beforeand during the meeting ofthe named Minister at Okom-
bahe on 24 February 1964,and declare that meeting tobe non-
official."
It goes on to say:
"... at the meeting there was no occasionfor question or discussion
witli members of the tribal cornmittee which consists10members
who unanimously were against the Bantustans ...".
Now, Sir,do you have any information which would indicate that these
ten members of the tribal committee did not send this petition to the
United Nations?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President, I havno doubt that these members
know some of them pcrsonally and 1 know their attitudes;t1oalso know
that they cannot claim to represent the whole Damara tribe. 1have said
quite clearlyinmy evidence, 1 think, that they are in opposition to the
Government and the Odendaal plan (the Darnara Tribal Executive Com-
mittee) and also in opposition to the Damara chief in Okombahe; but
they cannot daim that they have a rnajority support of the Damara
tribe, they are trying to re-organize the Damara tribe which is scattered
and the tribal links are not veryrong due to the history of this specific
tribe.
The PRESIDENT W:ell,if they cannot daim a rnajority support, can
SOU give the Court some indication as to what support they can claim?
hlr. DAHLMAMN R:lr. President, it is difficult to establish because they
are travelling from place to place-from Windhoek to Tsumeb to Walvis-
baai-wherever Damaras are living, to the whole of the Territory to have
discussions ivith their people, and are trying to persuade them in two
directions:(1)against NUDO, against the Herero dominated NUDO;
(2)against the Government and against the Odendaal plan. There is no
doubt about that.
Mr. GROSSM : r. Dahlrnann, wouId you Say that there is any political
party, regardless of its size or claims, among the Natives which has ex-
pressed support for the Odendaal Commission's political plan, as you
describe it?
Mr.BAHLAIA :TNhere isonly onepolitical organization which supports
the Odendaal plan, that is the South tT7estAfrica Coloure. ..
hlr. GROSS1: saidother than Coloured ...
organizations except NUDO enjoy a very lirnited support arnong theirse
graThe PKESIDENT 1:think you have told us that before, Blr.Dahlmann.
Mr. GROSS:1 think you have made that contention very clear, Sir.
With respect ta the question 1asked you,1 take it that the answer is, no.
There are no Native groups, poIitical organizations, which have sup-
ported or express support fothe Odendaal plan?
The PRESIDENT M :r.Muller. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 503
Mr. MULLER: With respect, Mr. President, 1think it siiould be clear
whether he refers to political parties,litical organizations or groups.
He has mentioned dl three now in one sentence.
Mr. DAIILMAN Nolitical organizations, yes; politiparties, no-no
political parties except SWACO support the 0di:ndaal plan; but1would
say the political authorities, the traditional chiefs and headmof the
different groups, support the Odendaal plan and that applies especidy
to the greatest nation in SouthWest Africa, to the Ovambos.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir.Now, would ÿou Say, Sir, that ithe testimony
which you have given, in which you have referred several times to anti-
government as a description of the objectives or policies of political
parties, that the phrase "anti-government",as you use it, refers, among
other thjngs, towhether or not the party is against the Odendaal Com-
mission plan ?
Mr. DAHLMAN :TNhese parties are against the Government and against
anything the Government is doing; for example, this applieto NUDO-
they are even against economic àevelopment. Kapuuo said inan interview,
for exarnple, and the interviewI refer to is an interview with Christian
Herter, Jnr.,that he is against the Kunene Scheme, against thiç hydro-
electric polver scheme near the Ruacana Falls, because that cornes frorn
the South African Government.
Mr. GROSS: Sir, is the opposition to the OdentlaaI plan based upon the
policie...f the political parties, opposition to the apartheid policy
generally ?
Mr. DAIILMANN 1:didnot get that quite clear.
Mr. GROSS:1s the political opposition, to which you referred, to the
Odendaal pIan related to, or an aspect of, the general opposition of poli-
tical parties to the apartheid system generally?
Mr.DAITLMAN The:opposition isagainstthe denial oAfrican major-
ity rule.
Mr. GROSSI :S that the extent of your answer to my question? You
wouId not Say, Sir, or would you agree, that there is a general opposition
of the political parties that exist to the apartheid policy?
Mr. DAIILMAN Nt:amounts to this effect, that al1 these parties are
against anything except African majoritqr rule.
hlr, G~oss: Now, Sir, with regardto theOdeildaal plan itself, and the
basis of the opposition felt to it andessed to it, would you advise the
Court, on the basis of your knowledge of the Odendaal plan, which 1
assume you have studied, have you, Sir?
Mr. DAIILMAX :NYes, 1have.
Mr.GROS :SHow many Natives would be moved in order to accomplish
the recornmendations of the plan?
The PHISIDENT:"Moved" in what sense?
Mr. G~oss: How rnanyNatives would be rrioved to accornpfish the
homelands recommendations of the plan? Shall 1 be more specific, Mr.
President 7
The PRISSIDENT M:r. Muller.
Mr. MULLERW : ith respect, Mr. President, 1 would object to that.
There is nothing in the Odendaal Cornmi+sion plan about people being
moved, as far as 1 know.
Mr. G~oss: Well, I willattempt to enlighteri counselMr. President.
Mr.DAIILMAN : Ny answer, Sir-nobody.
The PUSIDENT: 1s there anything in the report, Mr. Grosç, which5O4 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
says that there isa certain number, or that a nurnber wiIl be moved?
Mr. GROSS: NO, Sir, there is not. My question was related to the
witness'sknowledge-how many people would be moved ifthe political
recommendations of the Odendaal plan were to be accomplished, Sir.
The PKESIDEN Tl:ved, or resettled, or would themselves transfer?
hlr. GROSS : owever they might be physically moved, relocated or
persuaded, or otherwise, Sir. ùiy quest)va sirected to the accornpiish-
ment of the Odendaal Commission recommendations, to which 1 shali
now turn to darify my learned friend's analysis of the repoItrefer to
an article by Filr.Gordon Laurie, published in Africala Studies,Volume
23,Nos. 3 to 4of1964. Do you know who Mr. Laurie is,Sir?You have
heard of him?
Mr. DAHLMANN :es.
Mr. GHOSS :lr. Laurieis Director of the South Af~ican Institute of
InternationalAffairsin Johannesburg, according tothe head-note inthis
article. Hehas analysed theplan, and has a heacling "Population Move-
ments Irnplicit in the Homelands Proposal". He states that "the Report
does not explicitly state how many persons will need to move ifits re-
cornmendations are fully imp1emented"-that is a correct understanding,
is it, of the reporsofar as you know? It does not explicitly state how
many persons will need to move if its recommendations are fully im-
plemented?
Mr. DAHLMANN N:O,1 think a different thing has becn stated-that
nobodp (that applies toWhites and non-ihites) will be forced to go to
another place.
Rlr.GROSS:lirillYOU pleaseif 1may invite you, answer my questions
Lyes" or "no" where possible? The statement is "the Report does not
explicitly state howmany persons will need to move if its recommenda-
tions are fully implemented". 1sthat correct, or is it not?
Mr. DAHL~IAN :NThat iscorrect.
Mr. G~oss:That iscorrect.Now then, his analysis goes on to say:
"Part Il, which deals with homelands, gives 1960 population
figures for each ethnic group, but these figures refer [and he has this
in italics] not to the actual populatiof the proposed homeland
area,but to the total membership ofthe group concerned, irrespec-
tive of where individuals are at present living."
1 willpause thereto askwhether you have heard it complained of, or the
view exprcssed in your consultations and conferences, that there is a
potentiallp misleading aspect of tway the Odendaal Commission report
setsup the population figures?Have yau ever encountered that question
or qucry?
hlr.DAHI-MAN :Never.
Mr. G~oss: You nmer have. Now let me take as an example, at
page 95, with respect to Hereroland.
The PKESIDISNA TirDahlmann, would you look at the report which is
before you there?
Mr. GROSS: Page 95, paragraph Xo. 6 on the left-hand colurnn-
Chapter Gis headed "In Respect of Hereroland" and states"Herero
population 1960: 35,354". It is a fact, is it not, that this actually refers
to the entire Herero population throughout the Territory? 1s that not
correct,at the present time?
hlr. DAHLMANN T:hat is correct. WITNESSES riN1EXPERTS 505
GROSS n order to avoid any possible confusion by the editoria1
form in which this is placed and to which attention is cabyeMr. Laurie
in his study, the actual fact is, is it not, that in the proposed Hereroland
there isat the present timc a population of approximately rr,oooIsthat
correct, so farasyou know?
Mr. DAF~LMAN 1Na:m not farniliar with that figure.
Mr. GROSS: That will be found in the Odenclaal Commission report in
table XX and is undisputed by the ApplicaiitsI would prefer, Mr. Presi-
dent, with your indulgence, to make the exact ctation-tables XIX and
XX on page 41 tell the whole story. It will be found in tablXX that
there are in home areas 15,000 Hereros. Table XIX shows that in the
urban areas there are g,ooo Hereros and in the rural areas ~o,ooo.There-
fore, by a simple process of deduction, is it not so, that by subtraction,
which is the method used by hlr. Laurie, there arI 1,000 only out of the
35,000 Hereros that are presently living in what is to be the new Herero-
land-is that correct, or would you have any rcason to dispute the figure?
The PRESIDENT H:OWdo you arrive at thnt,Mr. Gross? At the moment
1don't set: it.
hlr.G~oss :Sir,the figures are broken downthis way: there is set forth
in table XIX on page 41 the number of Hereros living in the urban
areas, and that totals 9,192; there are 10,606 Hereros livininthe rural
areas. Then whcn you move over, so that you subtract those approxi-
mately 20,000 Hereros from the total population, you have a balance
of ...
The PRIISIDENT 1:,000.
BlrGROSS: 15,000. We are dealing with these 15,000; nowTam coming
to the demonstration that ofthese 15,000, 4,000 live outside what is now
the proposed Hereroland. That demonstration ;irises from still another
table in anotlier portion of the report which shows the present Herero
population in threc of the Reserves from which they would be expected
to depart and go to the new Hereroland. That isshown at table XX,
page 41, with respect to the three home arens in which Hereros now live
which they would be persuaded to leave. These are at the top ofpage 97
--4minuis. Otjohorongo and Ovitoto-those tliree Keserves ïvould no
longer be occupied by Herero who now live in them ifthe new recommen-
dations were adopted. With respect to those three Reserves there are,
according to table XX on page 41, in Aminuis 1,911 Hereros, in Otjo-
horongo 1,840 Hcrcros and in Ovitoto 1,000 Hereros; that group totaliing
something of the order of 4,000 do not now live in what will be Herero-
land, Sir, and thisleaveç the figure of 11,ooo.
The PRESIDISN TT:ank you-that isthe way in which you arrived at
this figure?
Mr. GROSS: That isright, Sir.
The PKESIDENT T:hen perhaps you might dircct your question to the
witness along those lines.
31r.GROSSY :es, Sir, and1apologize for the difficulty of building it up,
or extrapolating it, but this is the derivation.
The PRESIDENT D:oes the witness agree with that?
Mr. DAHLMANN Shall Ianswer the question? No. r, no one is forced
to go to these future homelands, and No. z, I am sorry to Say so,
but this is a bad exarnple, to my rnind, because as 1mcntioned before the
Hereros were not prepared to discuss things with the Odendaal Com-
mission, so there was no common ground for coiisultations; and the505 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Odendaal Commission could not possibly Ieave the Hereros out of their
plan and of their recommendations, so they had to propose something
after consultations with al1 the other groups, and 1 think the door for
consultations about this future Hereroland is stiIl open.
&IrG. ROSS N:ow Sir, wetum tu Damaraland.With respect to Damara-
land asto which there weresome consültations-I think you are aware
of that, are you?
Mr. DAHLMANY Ne:s, Sir.
Mr. GROSS N:ow with respect to Damaraland, on the basis of the same
tables, and first with reference to the Odendaal Commission report, to
avoid any possibleconfusion by the editorial format which has been said
to occasion some confusion, there is on p89,Section V, of the Oden-
daal report, tfollowingunder the heading of paragraph 5-" In respect
of Damaraland, Population 1960: 44,353. Frorn the format, Sir, it might
be inferred or implied that the population of Damaraland is 44,353but
is itnot the fact, Sir, that the 44,353 set forth here asthe population of
Damaraland in fact represents the population ofamaras widely scat-
tered through South West Africa in the southern sector?1s that not
correct?
Mr. DAHLMANT Nh:at is correct, Mr. President.
Mr. Gxoss: And do you know, Sir, whether jt is a fact that despite
what is called Damaraland here, that whenthe analysis is made of the
health section of theendaaI Commission report, which is at page 183,
paragraph 794,itisfound that there aramere 5,000people living in the
whole of the proposed new Damaraland? 1sthat correct so far as you are
aware, Sir?
The PRESIDBNT D:o you know one way or the other, witness?
&Ir.DAHLMANINd:o not know exactly. Shall 1refer only to this figure
or to what shall 1 refer?
Hr. G~oss: May I simplify it, with the Piesident's permission, and
ask you whether you have taken into account, in your analysis of the
factors underlying the indigenous political movements and attitudes, the
result in terms of movement of population which would be in Mr.Laurie's
phrase, "implicit in the accomplishment of the Odendaal recommenda-
tions"? Have you taken this factor into account in your analysis, Sir?
Mr.DAHLMAK1Nh:ave taken different factors into account.
The PRESDENTH : ave you taken this one, that is the point.
Mr.DAHLMAN :Including this one.
Mr. GROSS: And have you thought itsignificant enough tmake any
sort of study or analysis of the number of persons who would be removed
voluntarily or othenvise in the accomplishrnent of this plan?
Mr.DAHLMANM Nr:. President, that will depend on the opportunities
offered to these people within the future Damaraland, whether they will
be attracted by these opportunities or not and they are free to choose
whether they wiIl move or not.
Rlr. GROSS T:hat is the extent of the answer to my question of whether
you considered the factor of the numbers of people ~ho would be moved
in the accomplishment of this plan?
whatever they prefer.t they will not be moved, they are free to do
proposed Namaland, the Odendaal Commissionreport at pagetIOIin this WITKESSES ASD EXPERTS 5O7
same editorial format, sets forth'that-"InRespect of Namaland, Nama
population 1960: 34,806". Now, Sir, by reference to another and ap-
parently unrelated section of the Odendaal report, which is page 187,
at paragraph 818, you will find, Sir, that the proposed Namaland
presently carriesa population of only4,100 Do you have any reason to
doubt the accuracy of that figure, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAN1 N :o not know person'dy the exact figure ofNamas
living in future Namaland.
Mi. GROSS :hank you, Sir. Let us take anothi:r illustration-Tswana-
land. You will find, Sir, in the Odendaalomrni;sion report, page 99.in
this sarne format, section 8-"In Respect of the Tswana. Population
1960: 2,632." Now, Sir, in paragraph 378 on page 99, you \vil1find that
there are425 Tswanas. These, Sir,are not in whitt would be Tswanaland
at al1but in the adjacent territoof Aminuis, wliich is not to be included
in the new homeland of Tswanaland. Do you have any basis for dis-
agreeing with or questioning those figures?
The PRESIDEKT M:r. Gross, it is quite obvious tliat ydraw certain
conclusions frorn the figures and those conclusions may be perfectly cor-
rect but itis a little difficult to put to a witness, when it takes you some
time yourself to find out how it is arrivedat: have you any reason to
disagree with those figures? 1have no reason to disagree, and nobody
else has because they have not been checked pri:cisely yet but they will
be checked. In each particular case, it willseen that when reference is
made to Namaland it is the future Xarnaland, or when to HereroIand it
is the future Hereroland, and the total figure givein respect of each
coincides precisely with the figures given on taXIX. The point which
is being put to you, Mr. Dahlmann-1 think there is some cross purposes
between you-in each of these cases, there is involved the carrying out of
the sclieme of the various homelands in the report, the movement of
substantial numbers of people to get to the homeland which is to be
marked out:for them. The question, Mr. Gross 1understood was directing
hiç attention to was-did that create any political opposition and was it
one of the reasons why the people of South West Africa or a number of
them objected to the Odendaal report. Thaisreally the question, isn't it?
Mr. G~oss:Yes, Mr. President.
TilrDAHLMANN R:r.President,a number ofpeople within South jVest
Africa objected against the Odendaal report but as far as the different
groups are concerned and the homelands-some of them are existing and
others wili be or are supposed tobe created-the vat rnajority of the
non-jVhites inSouth West Africa are not in opposition with the Govern-
ment because of the future implementation ofthe Odendaal plan. There
are small groups which are definitely in opposition and which are, as1
explained, in opposition to any plan which this Government is going to
introduce.
Mr. GROSS:With respect to the Natives who ri:side in the urban areas
of the southern sector, bvhich is described as the modern or exchange
economy of the southern sector, isityour understanding, asan analyst
and political expert, that the Odendaal Commission plan contemplates
that those Natives residing there wiUbe persuaded or urged togo to the
homelands physically?
Mr. DAHI-MANN M:r. President, al1these non-iVhites who are living in
the so-called Police Zone have their links and relations with people in
their Reserves, most of thern own cattle or have their famiiies there and508 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
they are very closely connected to the present Keserves. That does not
only apply to the migrant labour to the Ovambos, but also to those who
permanently earn their living in the Police Zone. Thcse people are free
to stay there,orthey might find it more attractivto go to the Keserves
or to their hornelands,ecause these hornelands might offer much better
opportunities than they had under the present situation where they have
to face the competition from the \Vhites. 1 think the Odendaal plan
makes it more or less clear, and 1can only repeat, that these individuals
or groups will not be moved, they can stay there or, if they think they
have better possibilities in their homelands then they are free to go to
their hornelands.It is,of course, important that the parts arof South
West Africa which are not very highly deveIoped. At prescnt only this
nucleus, tliis centre part is further dcveloped ttheother areas, and it
is quite obvious that the Government is interested in developing further
parts of the country. Therefore, the Government might be interested and
might persuade those who are living in the Police Zone to develop
underdeveloped areas.
hlr.GROSS :ir, you referred to as one of the pocsibly motivating factors
the desire, 1am paraphrasing loosely, to avoid the risks or disadvantages
of economic competition with the Whites. Are you aware, from your
studies and political observation, of the nature and extent of the limita-
tions imposed upon the freedom of economic opportunity in the case of
Natives inthe urban areas?
Mr. DAHL~~AN 1am: aware of certain restrictions,certalaws, whicli
1must Say are not very important inpractice.
hlr.G~oss: You mean, Sir, that the limitations upon a Native ob-
taining jobs in certain industries, or certain positions above the rank of
common labourer or semi-skilled labourer are not important? Isthat
what you mean?
The PRESIDEKT X:ot important in practice he says.
air.DAHLMANN N:O,Mr. President. The factual positiois thatmany
jobs are offered and only a few non-Whites are qualified to apply for these
jobs. That is actually the position.
hlr.GROSS : es. Sir. There has been repeated testimony on this point
and in fajrness to y0111 \vil1make that cleaand, to spare the Court's
time, T will not press you to elaborate that particular answer. 1 would
like task you, Sir,if you can esplain tothe Court why it is necessary to
impose job restrictions upon non-IVhites if there are too few applicants
to fil1the demand?
Mr. DAHLMAN N :r.President, there might be some reasons for that.
First, 1 know only of a few restrictions and within not only the Native
area, the hornelands and Reserves, but also within the townships the
non-Whites have almost udimited opportunitiesand itis sad that only
a few are taking these chances and opportunities which are given to
them. But we have already one doctor in Windhoek and in Katutura
there are butchers, shop-owners, garage-owners and so on.
Jlr. G~oss: Katutura being the so-called Sative township I take it?
1s that correct?
ilIrDAHLMA NKNatutura is,. .
Mr. GROSS T:hat is the Native township is it not, Sir?
&SrD.AHLMANN I:eIl,it ione Native township,one can Say.It is the
modern Native township.
Mr. Giioss: Yes, Sir. With respect to the economy, and 1 am now WITXESSES AND EXPERTS 5O9
referring not rnerely to the Native township biit to the economy as a
whole in tlie southern scctor in the urbarl areas, would you (or do you
consider that you have aiiswered this question alreadÿ) csplain to the
Court ~vhy there are restrictions irnp0se.d upon non-\'hites in respect of
employrnent and jobs-job reservations-if they would suffer from com-
petition withthe IVhites?
hlr.DAHLMAN MNr. President, that ~night be to avoid social friction,
for example. On the othcr side there are also restrictions imposed on the
Whites and the reason, 1think, will be mole or less the same-keep the
peace and to avoid social friction.
hIr. GROSS :ir, would pou testifp that the "social friction" to which
you refer woiilbe that friction which would be created by Wliites being
concerned with non-White cornpetition for jobs?
RIr.DAHLMANIN t can happen on both sides and thcre might be
another reason, &Ir. President. For esarnple, the Government policy
might be to discourage certain non-Whites fronl taking certain jobs or
getting the quaIifications for certain jobs becausi: theredemand for
these jobs at the present time or in the near future. 'That might aaso be
possibiIity.
JIr. G~oss:50 that if there aslimited demand is it your analysis that
the Iihjte achieves and is entitledto the automatic priority for the
limited nurnber of jobs availabieSir?
Mr. UAHLMANK No:, Mr. President, that is not quite correct. The aim
is to develop further partsofthe country, that isthe big aim, and you
need, for esample, bricklayers, people who are able to builroads,who
are able to drive engines or these road construction machines, and so on.
ive have these peopIe, trained and skilled laboui..
The PRESIDENT A:re you speaking of non-Whites?
Mr. DARL~~~AN YNe, of non-MJliitesOnly ofnon-Wfiiteç at present,
There might be other professions-teachers, of course. We desperatcly
need teachers in these territories and in the wholethe Territory. But,
to give you an example, we do not necd historians or professors of art or
anything like that. We onIy need motor mechanics on a limited scale
becausc there arenot very many cars driven by rion-Whites inthe whole
Territory. So 1 think it is the policy of the Government to get trained
people for al1the jobs which will become availabli: within the near future.
&Ir. GROSS: Sir, has your newspaper-I believe it is caIled the Allge-
meine Zeiluizg, is that correct?
Mr. DAHLMANN :es, that iscorrect.
Mr. G~oss:You are the editor, are you not?
hlr. DAHLMASX : Yes.
hlr.G~oss: And that has a circulation arnong an important element of
the White population, does itnot, Sir?
Mt- D.AHEMAN :NIt is German language papcr, as 1 have stnted.
Rlr.G~oss: I assume that you would agree that the persons towhom
the paper circulates are important members of the community economi-
cally and otherwise and among the leadership in the community? Would
you agree, Sir?
Mr. DAHI-MANN 1:hink so.
Mr. GROSS:NOW,has the editorial policy of your newspaper been
directed,al: any time during the last two or tbree pears for example,
toward the question ofjob reservation on a racial basis?
Mr. DAHLMANS :o, Mr. President. Ihave already explained to ~OU510 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
that in practice this question iç not important in South West Africa.
There are so many jobs offered and we would be very happy, especially
under the present conditions, ifwe could have qualified people for the
jobs offered.
The PRESIDENT W :hat kinds of jobs are they that you are speaking
about?
Mr. DAHLMANN Cl:erical jobs, drivers, nurses, teachers, people who
are able to handle road construction machinery and so on.
Mr.G~oss: Now, Sir, would there be any reason for the limitation of
opportunity to the type of jobs you mentioned or what would be the
reason for not advocating, in the case of your newspaper for example, a
\vide-open unrestricted opportunity to al1on the basis of merit and ir-
respective of race?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President, the main task at present is to en-
courage these people, the non-LVhites,to get any training at al1and only
at a later stage, when we have quite an amount of serni-skilled and
skilIed labour, thewe can go a step fonvard and we can Say, right, now
we need doctors and professurs, university teachers and so on.
Mr. GROSS :nd you think that is an explanation for these reçervations
and restrictions being applied on a racial or ethnic basis?
Mr. DAHLMANN &:Ir.L'resident1have testified already and I cannot
add much to what 1have said, that it is to avoid friction becaasefar
as 1 know (it was before rny time), there was some friction along that
line. ..
Rlr. GROSSN : ow; Sir, having made clear the extent of popula tion
movement which would be implicit in the carrying out of the Odendaat
Commissionhomelands recornmendations, 1should like, by way ofa brief
sumrnary on that, Sir, to read from the study to which 1referred by Mr.
Gordon Laurie-a South African study-in which he says:
"If we, asit were, set population movement against gain in land
area we find that:
74 per cent. of the Herero population will move and Herero
land will increase in area by abouqg per cent;
87 per cent. of the Namas will move and Namaland will be
more than doubled in area;
. 94 per cent. of the Damarasand 95 per cent. of the Bushrnen
will move, but each will, for the first time, have a homeland of
their own."
Now, Sir, with respect to the percentage of the various populations
that would be moved in irnplementation of this plan, may 1 corne back
againand specifically now to the Herero, Nama and Damara residing in
Government and of the OdendaaI Commission report to encourage aicy of the
large-scale movement of these people from the urban areas to the new
hornelands?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President, the future will prove that. 1 can only
state that, from my own observation, 1think we shouldleaveHereroland
out because, as 1 have said before, it is a rather bad example since the
Hereros refused to be consulted. As far as the other future homelands are
concerned, 1can only state from my own observation that these future
hornelands-1 refer only to Damaraland and Namaland-offer, 1would
not Say unlimited possibilities and opportunities, but they are, agricul- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 511
turally speaking, the trvo best areas we have got within the Police Zone.
There might be one other area which you could compare with the future
Darnaraland and Namaland as far as agriculture isconcerned and that is
the Rehoboth Baster Gebiet. But Namaland and Darnaraland are, from
the point of view of agriculture, extremely goodareas.
ThcPRESIDENH TO: Wdothe new Namalaiid and Damaraland compare
in terrns of quality, carrying capacity and productive capacity, with the
Reserves from which they would have to move to go to them?
Mr. DAHLMANM N:r. President, if I might give you one esample: it is
said in the Odendaal pIan that the people from Warmbad should go to
the future Namaland, 1 think that is correct, and this future Namaland
cannot be compared because it gives a much better opportunity than this
dry place in thesouth of South West Africa-the Warmbad area, where
you have no grass sometimes after these prolongcd periods of drought-
and the future Namaland offers these people. especially from the Warm-
baMr. G~oss: Sir, with respect to the honourable President's question,s.
looking again at table XIX on page 41 and referring to Damara, there
are, are there not, 18,499Damara in the urban areas and 20,260 in the
rural areas? That isatotal, Sir,is it not, of approximately 38-39,0007 In
the Reserves or home areas on that same table, there are only 5,285.s
that correct, Sir?
hir.DAHLMANY Ne:s.
hlr. G~oss: My questions, Sir, have been directed and are directed
stiu, first of al1to the 18,500Darnaras in the urban areas-1 am referring
now to Dainaras-1 had before been referring to Damaras, Namas and
Hereros-but let us take one at a time. Now with respect to tkiç sizeable
population ofDarnaras in the urban areas, did 1understand your answer
to my question with regard to political policy and objectives of the
Government to be that these 18,50a 0,proximately, would beencouraged
to move to the proposed homeland from tlie urban areas?
hlr. DAHLMANY Ne:s, there is no reason why they should not be en-
couraged to develop this area of the country, which is also a very good
area from the agricultural point of view and there is a mine in that area
already. 1 cannot say much more than that, only the future can prove
that and itwould be only too good if the non-White could keep the pre-
sent development which has already taken place, orifthey could develop
these parts of the country better in future.
hlr. GROSSW : hat, Sir, would you feel would be the economic con-
sequences iii the economy of the urban area if the 18,50amaras should
leave the urban areas for their bright prospects in that homeland?
at present, I cannot tell.esident, 1would not know al1these implications
Mr. G~oss: Do you think, Sir, that by reason of automation,or other-
wise, the urban area economy will be able to get along without Native
labour, or does that take you into the field of econornicçand beyond your
ken, Sir?
hlr. DAHI-MAKN 1 am not an expert in the field of ecoaomy and only
one thing I can say-the urban areas would be able to survive or to live
with much less non-White than we have there at present. You see, the
position is that as such we employ much niore non-White than we have
to,to give them the opportunity to earn some money. It isnot necessary
to employ asmany asthat. SOUTH IVEST AFRICA
512
Mr. GROSS :ir, are thereany non-White employers in the çouthern
sector, in the urban areas?
Mr. DAHLMANY Ne:cof course, Jir. President.
Mr. G~oss: Outside of Katutura and, let us Say, in the case of the
Urindhoek area?
hlr. DAHI,MAP; ll:o outside of Katutura. That applies to the whole
Territory. UTehavc, for example, boat-ownersin Walvis Bay, 1think that
iç a jobof an employer-rt good one becausethey earn ... Icannot givc
you any figures but they earn n terrific amount of money.
hfr.G~oss: Sir, when you say "we", meaning the U7hites, employers
offer more opportunities than the demand or requirement, that isa.
paraphrase ofyour testimony, is it?
Mr. DAHLMAN \m:en 1 said "we", at present,1 meant South West
Africa.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, would you say that, from a political point of
view, the political parties and organizations such as they arand rnay
exist, are influenced, and even perhaps deeply affected, bqrthe uncertainty
concerni~lgthe future of their place of residence and their status? Would
you say this was a factor, in your expert analysis, which would account
for some agitation or ernotion in their position?
Mr. DAHLMANN N:O,definitely not. hi^.President, 1 think the outside
world takes these organizations a little bit too seriously. As 1tried already
to point out, they havevery limited support and people-as we say, the
man on the street-are not much interestedin these political partiand
organizations. As 1 said in my evidence, they are much more closely
linked to their differenttribes and there is no u~icertainty whatsoev1r,
think the present good cconornic conditions are the main factor why
these organizations enjoy so little support.
hlr.G~oss:With respect to the lack ofuncertainty to which you have
just testified, would you Say, $Ir. Dahlmann, that you could indicate any
projection over what you would regard as a realistic nature, from a
political point of view, of the method and time by which this major
development may take place. First taking the question of time,when do
you envisage this programme being accomplished?
AIr.DAHLMAN ir. President, that depends on the people thcmselves
and rve, and I mean nonrpoliticalobservers,.in South \\'estAfrica are
sornetimes of the opinion, or they ask themselves, whether this develop-
ment is not even too fast at present, whether the non-LVhites can under-
stand al1these things which are goingon at present, but1 cannot Say or
judge how long that will take.
Alr. GROSS :re you, Sir, also able to express an opinion from the
poIitica1 point of view as to what rnethods of persuasion have bcen used
or may be used to accomplish this move?
Mr,DAHLMAN :Nothing has been used sofar but 1think it is common
knowledge that the implernentation, of the political paofthe Odendaal
plan has been set aside.
Mr. G~oss: It wouId be purely speculative to make an estimate as to
type of persuasion which would be necessary to accomplish the move,
1 take it?
Alr.DAHLMANN 1 think the Government iç ver; serious about sa-in-
they do not want to force anybody.
hlr. G~oss: Yes, 1 have no doubt, Sir. In the Hansard House of
Assembly debates, to which reference has been made in earlier proceed- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 5 13
ings, No.1g,4 May-S hlay 1964, which is the Third Session of the Second
Parliament, atcolumn 5516, the Deputy BIinister for South West Africa
Affairs, in the debate on the Odendaal Commission report, stated as
follows:
"The honourable leader of the opposition saidin his speech at
IVindhoek that they were opposed to moving people by force. 1s
there cineword inthe Report to suggest that thoç'epeople should be
forced to go to those homelands? It says the opposite. They must be
persuaded to go there.1am convinced we should be able to persuade
those people to go."
Now, Sir,I.am not asking you to read the mind of the Deputy Minister,
but from your own observation, let us say, of the Katutura events, would
you express an opinion concerning the methods by which persuasion
would be exerted?
Mr. DAHLMANN W hat do you mean by Katutura events, may 1ask?
Rlr.GROSS :es, indeed, with the President's permissio1,would be
glad to clarifmy question to you.
The PRESIDENT U:yal1means.
Mr. GROSS :hank you, Sir. The Katutura events have been referred
to by you in your testirnony, Sir, in connection with the report of the
Commission of Enquiry, have they not?
hlr.DAHLMAN :You rnean the occurrences at the old location?
hlr.GROSSI: mean the incidents in which several persons were killed,
yes, Sir.
MT.DAHLMAN :N\'es.
Blr.G~oçs :And the December 1959 occurrences.
Mr.DAHLMANN Y es.
&Ir. G~oss: And you testified, did you not, that you were familiar
with the circumstances attending that matter and the report of the
Commissioii of Enquiry?
Mr. DAHLIIIAN YN:s.1 am familiar with it1did not know what you
meant by "Katutura events".
Mr. GROSS1 :am attempting to explain, Sir, with the Preçident's per-
mission.The question relates to the methods of persuasion which have
been used in respect of the attempt to obtain the removal, by persuasion,
of some thousands of persons from the old quarters to the Katutura
township. 1)oes this enlighten you,Sir, with respect to the intent of my
question?
Rlr.DAHLWAN N:s, but 1could not understand your question be-
cause at that time there was no persuasion whatsoever, because removal
was, at that time, completely impossibleecause there was not a single
house corn~iletedat that stage. You see, the disturbances took place on
the night of10-11December and atthat time not a single house had been
completed in the new township of Katutura, and onlya few weeks later,
xvhenthe people from the old iocation-theywere intimidated and they
xvere afraid of future disturbances-urgethe town council to cornplete
the houseç,and only then a small number of houseç had been completed,
and only then it was possible to allow the first niiofnon-LVhites to
go to the new township.
The PRESIDENT B:y whom were they intimidated?
Rir.DAHLMANN B:y the other non-imites, by the so-called political
leaders, anc1 think, tooa srnall number of huts had been çet on fire.514 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. G~oss:Sir ,re you, or are you notfamiliar withthe rnethods,if
any, of persuasion, which have been empIoyed at any time in connection
with the move of some 6,000personç to Katutura from the old location?
Are you farniliar with any efforts made by anybody to persuade them to
move?
Mr. DAHLMANY Ne:s, of course, hIr. President, many employers have
persuaded their employees to move to Katutura and the reasons are quite
obvious. 1think in the old location we had only nine latrines for, 1think,
14,000 people. No, that is not true200 seats, zoo latrines and g water
tapsand no water toilets, and it is in the interests of the employer that
his employees are living under normal living conditions-are living in
them, ofcourse, and they asked them, "whygdooyou not go to Katutura"
and the employers shared part ofthe rent for theuses and they are also
paying bus fares. The second thing was that the town council evaluated
thehuts of the old location.
The PKESIDENT Th:e what?
Mr.DAHLMA :NTNe huts.
The PRESIDEKT Y:es, but what did they do to thehuts?
Mr. DAHLMAN :Nhey evaluated them.
Mr.G~oss: Appraised them, 1suppose, for pui-chaseor condemnation.
Mr. DAHLMAN Nhe non-Whites \ho left the old location got a re-
rnaikable amount of money for the old slurns.
Mi-.GROSSX : ow, Sirin the context inwhich we are discussing the
political aspects of the attempts at persuasion which would be necessary
to accomplish the move,or a move, and 1 refer to the Katutura in this
respect for your clarification, with respect to lessons which may be
learned for an expert political analyst interested in the future of this
territory, Sir, from the Katutura experience, 1wouId like to ask you, Sir,
for your evaluation, and 1 will be more specific in my question when I
have read this paragraph 455from page 119of the Odendaal Commission
report, in which the Commission recornmends:
"That, in regard to the residentialeas of non-Imites in Wind-
hoek (excluding the Coloureds, Basters and Nama), the authority
concerned should do everything in its power to persuade the ap-
proximately 6,000 non-imites still resident in the slum area to
move, on the grounds of obvious health reasons and for their general
benefit, to Katutura with its excellent arneni..."
Now, Sir, from the standpoint of your political analysis, why is it
necessary at this stage for the Odendaal Commissionto be recommencüng
that the authority "should do everything in its power to persuade the
approximately 6,000" to move, and so forth. What, Sir, on thebasisof
your experience accounts for their reiuctance and failure to move sofar?
Mr. DAHLMANM Nr:. President, it is very hard for me ta understand,
Icannot understand why aperson who is inopposition tothe Government
cannot live in a decent housc. Nobodyhas anything against the opposi-
tion tothe Government, theyare entitled to do that, they are entitled to
have their parties and meetings, and so on, but why cannot they doit
under normal living conditions, because 1 think the living conditiins
the old location are terrible?
Mr. GROSSS:ir, they are concededly slum areas. Does this not make it
ail the more surprising that these 6,000personç have not rnoved and that WITYESSES AND EXPERTS 5I5
the recommendation is now made in the sense and form in which it is?
Mr. DAHLMANN M r. President, thatis one thing that one cannot
understand-at least, 1 cannot understanit-and many visitors to the
Territory cannot understand it either.
The PRESIDENT1:s there a political reason behind it?
Mr. DABLMANNT : hereis tribal discipline and the objections of the
Herero against Government poIicy.
Mr. G~oss: Are you familiar, Sir, with the reason whicwas assigned
in thesame debate in the House of Assembly by the Deputy Minister for
South West Africa Affairs?
Mr. DAHLMANN : hich statement was it?
Mr. G~oss: Thestatemcnt with respect to the difficultjr and the reaçons
why the move had not been accomplished, despite the fact that it was
from a sluin area toan obviously more satisfactory area from a living
point of view. Are you familiar with the reason assigned by the Deputy
Minister in that debate?
Mr.DAHLMAN : NO.
Mr. GROÇS:YOUdo not recalI it,Sir?
Mr. DAALMAN :NNO.
Mr.G~oss:At column 5516 of theHansavd, to lvhich1 have referred
and cited, the Deputy Minister for South 1lrest Africa Affairs said:
"The Leader of the Opposition yesterday asked 'what about
Katutura, thepeople are still in the old locaIishalltell himwhy
theyare there, they are still there because they have been incbyed .
Whites not to move; they are being incited by the opposition not to
move."
Would you agree with the analysis of the Deputy Minister as tothat
being a reason for the failure to move?
hlr.DAHLMAN K :. President1 do not have al1the information that
the Deputy Minister fias1 can Say that a number of Whites were in-
tcrested that the non-Whites should not move irom the old location to
Katutura; a few shop owners, to give youan example, where the shops
were in the vicinity of the old location, Icannot state from my own
experience whether there were also some politicians who supported the
attitude of the non-Whites in the old location.
Mr. GROSS1 :shall cite to you1 may, Nr. Presidenta reason assigned
by the people themselves concerned before the Commission of Enquiry,
which reason isset forth in the report of the Commission of Enquiry, to
which you referred in your testimony on Friday. 1 refer to the report as
it is printetl in the United Nations documenReport oftheCornmitteeon
South West Africa, Official Records of the 15th Session of the General
Assembly, SuppIement No. 12 (A/4464).At page 61of this document, the
following statements aremade by the honourable Commissioner of the
Enquiry.
1quote paragraph 20, and Ishall be glad to go over it 1uwish to be
sure the honourable Court and you understand the context in full.
"On thepart of certain of the occupants of the oId location, chiefly
the Hereros, there has existed for some considerable time dissatis-
faction over the proposed removaI ; that this dissatisfaction devel-
oped into general opposition to the move only became evident in
Septenlber1959 w,hen itfirst came to the knowledge of the municipal
official;n charge of the locatio..."Sb SOUTH WEST AFRICA
I will pause there task you whether it is not correct that this Septem-
ber 1959 is some months prior to the occurrences which are the subject
of the enquiry? That is correct, is it not, Sir? Can answer yeç or no?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President, that is correct. Before that tirne there
was no opposition.
Mr. G~oss:1 have not asked about prior to that time, Mr. Preçident.
The PRESIDENT Just answer the question, witness.
Rlr.GROSÇ: Now, to go on from there.
"A meeting of the Advisory Board was then convened, and it was
attended by sorne zoo Xatives, and three grounds of objection to the
removal to Katutura were advanced: (a) thnt it would be impossible
for the inhabitantsto pay the rent which would be charged for the
houses there, and also for the increased bus fares to Windhoek;
(b) that the proposed regulations were too strict; and (c) [and to
this1 invite your attention particularly, although you might com-
ment of course on any other aspect of this] that the proposed removal
was really a part of the general segregation yolicy (aparlheids beleid)
of the Union Government, which istotally unacceptablc to al1non-
Europeans."
Now, Sir, with specific reference to this last reason brought forth in
these hearings to ~vhich the Commissionor refers,what, if any. isyour
opinion or analysis, froma political point of view, concerning the role, if
any, played by this factor of total unacceptability of apartheids belasd
a reasori for deterring the move to these better quarters from the slum
areaç?
Mr. DAHLMAKN A:t that time, Mr. President, when the disturbances
happened, the rent of the houses had not been fixed.
Rlr.G~oss: Mr. Presidcnt, Ido not know whether 1am obfuscsting
the issue;1 am referring to statements made inSeptember 1959, severat
months prior to the events in question, and1am anxiouç, if possible, for
the witness to address Iiirnself to the context of time, unless he mis-
understands my questions.
The PRESIDENT :O YOU ünderstand the questions put to you?
Rir.DAHLMAKN Y:es, 1understand.
The PRESIDENT i'ell then, answer the questions, iyou can. Pleaçe
proceed.
Mr. DAHLMAP :~Xhisquestion that certain non-\mites are in opposi-
tionagainst the apartheid policy is admitted, and opposition still esists
and that is why there is no other obvious reawn why the minority is not
prepared togo to Katutura, but in the meantirne Ithink it is also clear
that the majority of the inhabitants of the old location have moved to
Katutura.
The PRESIDENT:Could 1 ask, hlr. Dahlmann, when you Say that there
was opposition to the apartheid policy, do1understand itto mean that
the non-It'hites were in opposition throughout the territory, or was it
limited to the 6,ooo? l'ou had better give the proper picture to the
Court, whatever itis.
Rlr.DAHLMAXN \re are only talking about the Windhoek location,
1think.
BIr.GROSS:It is difficuit for me to interpret the full intention of the
author ofthe report of the Commission of Enquiry, but according to the
Summary it is stated that oneof the reasons assignedby this group that U'ITNESSES AND EXPERTS t517
met in September 1959 in opposition to the move, on the part of a sub-
stantial number of the perçons concerned, was that "the proposed re-
rnoval was really a part of the general segregation policy of the Union
Government which is totally unacceptable to al1non-Europeans". This
is not in terms limited to the 6,000 persons in the situation.
The PRESIDENT :o, but the comment as 1 understand you reading it,
Mr. Gross, is that it is "one of the reasons given", he does not say, or
does he, that as a fact it is wholly unacceptable to al1non-Europeans?
blr. GROSS :O, hlr. President,1 appreciate very much the chance to
clarifyrny question, because 1 thought I had asked, and intended to ask,
for the witness's expert opinion concerning the validity or othenvise of
that statement with respect to the unacceptability or total unaccepta-
bility to al1non-Europeans, and 1 was anxious, hIr. President, with your
indulgence to attain the witness's analysis of that as a conclusion.
[Public hearing of r2October 196j]
RIr. G~oss: hlr. Dahlrnann, yesterday at the conclusion of the pro-
ceedings urewere discussing the possible reasons for the failure or refusa1
of a certain number of the Natives to move to the Katutura Township,
and my questions concerning that were in respect of, generally, the ana-
lysis from apolitical point of viewof the reasons for the refusal to move
and of the methods of persuasion, as a possible indication of the shape of
things to corne in connection with what the Odendaal Commission report
caI1sthe great migration as contemplated in the implementation of the
Odendaal plan. In that context 1 should liketo draw your attention to
the political analysis and the political factors entenng into the poiitical
attitudes, anti-Government or otherwise. in respect of the Odendaal plan.
With further reference to the matter of political attitudes and political
actions,1should like to draw to your attention an article in the Manches-
tu Guardian of 3 April 1965 by a political correspondent reflecting his
observations on the basis of a visit to the Territory and interviews there.
1 read as follows:
"Thi: political consciousness of the Africans may be partly
measui-ed by their boycott of the new Africaii township of Katutura,
near Windhoek. Built in 1959 to house about ~o,ooo, Katutura is
still ncit fully occupied in spite of officia1efforts. Many African[I
will go over this if you wish, but to get it in full context], particularly
the Hi:rero (the most politically conscious tribe since they were
decirnated by the Gerrnans at the tu1.n of the century) insist on
staying in their old and comparativelyinsanitary location. Whatever
their reasons, the duration and effectiveness of the boycott are im-
pressive."
Now, with respect to this political correspondent's report to whic1 have
just referred,do you agree tliat the boycott of the move to Katutura,
despite Government pressures or persuasion, is ;lfair syrnptom of their
political consciousness, their consciousnesof the necessity or purpose of
political activity ?
Mr. DAHLMANN 1think there are many questions involved. As far as
the attitude of the non-Whites generally is concerned,1 must briefly deal
with the different population groups, with their political consciousness
and with their attitude towards the Government.5x8 , SOUTH WEST AFRICA
1 can be very brief with the northern part of the Territory...
Mr. G~oss: Mr. President,may I reçpectfullyrequest that the answer
be in terms of the Katuturs context?
The PRESI~ENT:Mr. Gross, you read a long statement from a corres-
pondent, a great deal of which contains allegations of fact1don't know
to what extent you might latel çuggest that the witness did not answer
the allegations of fact and therefore the factsmight beken to be correct.
You asked him a very general question, and1 think the witness içentitled
to answer it in his own way.
Mr. GROSS:Thank you, Sir.
Mr. D-~HL~~A NTXhe northern territories, especially Ovamboland, the
Okavango and the Caprivi Strip ~epresent the majority of the non-White
population of South West Africa, and these three territories are in favatir
of CO-operationwith the Government, and they are also in favour of the
implementation of the political part of the Oderidaal plan, Imentioned
already the attitudeof the chiefs and headmen who wrote to the Prime
Mjnister, and 1 also mentioned the attitude of the 145 teachers, nurses
and ministers who also wrote tothe Prime Minister. In the Kaokoveld it
is scarceIy populated, but there you feel certain opposition towards the
Government because there are a nurnber of Hereros livingthere, and itis
quite clear, and always admitted, that the Hereros are in opposi-
tion to the Government and also in opposition to the Odendaal plan. -4s
far.as the Damaras are concerned, the Damara tribal executive comrnit-
tee is against CO-operation with the Government and also against the
Odendaal plan. The paramount chief of the Darnaraç isin favour of the
implementation of the Odendaal plan, and is also for CO-operationwith
the Government, and 1 am very sure that the Damara tribal executive
comrnittee does not enjoy the support of the majority of the Damaras,
because as the committee itself admits, the Danlaras are not so group
conscious as the other tribes of South \iTest Africa.
Coming to the Rushmen, that is also a small group, and they are en-
tireljr dependenton Government protection.
The Rehoboth Basters, as 1 have explained already, have their o~i
citizenship and are very proud of their own citizenship, although1 rnust
statethat leaders of the Baster community expressed their opposition to
the Government, and in the Rehoboth area you have this peculiar situa-
tion: on the one hand they are against the Government and also against
the implementation of the Odendaal plan, but on the otherhand they want
to keep and tosafeguard their identity as Uaster burghcrs, Baster citizens,
within their own area.
As far asthe Namas are concerned, Chief Witbooi, it is quite clear,is
against the Government, against the implementation of the Odendaal
plan. Chief IVitbooi is,as 1 also explained, the chief of 500 Narnas
altogether, that is, men, women and children. Other Nama chiefs and
headmen are in favour of CO-operationwith the Government, and even
Chief Dederic Isaak, who appeared for a short period on the Listof the
Cornmittee hlembers of Fierero-dominatedNUDO, indicated just a few
days before 1 left SouthWest Africa that he had changed his mind and he
is now prepared to CO-operatewith certain other chiefs and headmen who
are in favour of CO-operationwith the Government.
The Colourcds-the vast ~najority,1think 1 can say-are definitely in
favour of CO-operation with the Government aiid also in favour of the
Odendaal plan; they have cxpressed their views to that evtent very often. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 5I9
Coming back to the last population group, the Hereros: the Hereros,
there is no doubt about it, are against CO-operationwith the Government,
are against the Odendaal plan and are trying everything possible to make
the situation for the Governrnent difficult. TheHereros are dominating
thisNUDO party, and that is a nucleus of the opposition to the Govern-
ment; and the Hereros are the driving force behind the boycott of the
removal from the oId location to the new township, Katutura. Those who
refuse to go to the new township are in the majority Hereros, with a
little bit of Damara and very limited Nama support within the location
of Windhottk. And then one must ask, what are the plans of the Hereros
and of NUDO, and they are not far away from the pIans of the Govern-
ment at all because, under African majority rule, NUDO favours re-
gionalism-that means at the Iatest stage they are in favour of five
dif£erent regions, one for each populationgroup-the whole north for the
Ovarnbos, Ilamaraland 1think will be in the samt: region as the Odendaal
Commissioii proposed, and the whole centre of the Territory they claimed
for themselves, that should be Hereroland, and Namaland in the south,
and the Rehoboth Basters should keep their present territory. .
These are their own plans and they want to have a federation within
thisregionalism. They favour a federation in which each region should be
represented equally; that means that the 245,000 Ovambos should have
the same number of representatives within the federal Government as,
forexample, the Rehoboth Baster with, I think, rI,ooo people. 1 ex-
plained already in my evidence that there is no region envisaged for the
Whites.
Coming hack to the last part of the question, the refusa1 to go to the
new township from the old location does not reflect at al1the attitude of
al1the non-Whites of the Territory and not even of the majority of non-
Whites of 1:heTerritory. Even in Windhoek itself, it is clear that the
majority has already gone to the new township Katutura, and only a
minority, with the Hereros as the driving force behind it,refuses to go
to the new township and is stilinthe old location.
The PRESIDENTM : ay I interpose just one question,Mr. Gross? What
is the approxirnate population of people who are locatcd in Katutura?
Mr. DAHI~SIAN MNr:President, there are about g,ooo at present who
are living in Katutura and about 6,000-7,000 in the old location.
hlr. G~oss: Now Mr. DahImann, you recall perhaps, Sir, that my
question was whether you agreed or disagreed with the political obser-
vation thatthe refusa1to move to Katutura indicated political conscious-
ness. Would you agree, Sir, thatit is a fair summary of the activities you
just described in detail, and would you agree to the charactenzation of
those many political activities you describe as amounting to a substantial
degree of political consciousness among those concerned?
Mr. DAHLMANN Iexplained, I think, in my evidence that there is a
political coiisciousness amongst the leadership of the Hereros, there is
no doubt about that. They are politically very co~~scioubut that applies
more or less to the leadership of the Hereros and is due to their tribal
discipline-I think that is the rnost important factor.Within the Herero
nation the politically conscious Herero Ieadership is definitely in a
position to show strength.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, again specifically-I am trying to confine my
questions for the moment but you may roam where you will,Sir,ifyou
could be responsivebut specifically with respectto Katutura and the520 SOUTH WEST -4FRICA
reasonç underlying the failure to move, have you met in the course of
your stay in South West Africa, &Ir.J.D. 13u P. Basson, who was a
mernber of the House of Assembly?
Mr. DAHLMAN NO:,Icannot remember.
Rh. GROSS Y:ou have not encountered his nainSir,in your political
studies of the Territory?
Rlr.DAHLMAN1 N :annot recollect the name.
Mr. G~oss: Well, perhaps it might refresh your recollection to know
that Rlr.J. D.Du P.Basson is from Bezuidenhout.
Mr. DAHLLIAN Kasson. Yes,1 know him verywell.
Mr.GROSS Y:es, it wmy pronounciation that misled yo1.apologize
to the Court, Sir. You have meNr. Basson, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAN Nes, 1have.
Mr.G~oss: He was, waç he not, a Member of Parliament of the South
Africa Assembly in 1964 during the debate on the White Paper on the
Odendaal Commission report?
hlrDAHLMAN N :s,1was also present therc.
hlr.GROSS :OU were present at those debates, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAN N :s.
Mr. GROSS: RIF.Basson was, was he not, a reçident of SoutWest
Africa at one time?
Mr.DAHLMANlN 'e:sthat is correct. He was a reçident of Windhoek.
Mr.GROSS F:or approximately how long,do youhappen to know?
Mr.DAHLMAK :Nor anumber of years-1 do not know where he was
born but he was living in Windhoekfora number of years.
Mr.GROSS N:OW.Sir,1refer to his statement in the House of Assembly
debates in Hansard, the Third Session, Seconcl Parliamen4,May to
8May 1964.This was during the course of the debateon the Government
White Paper with respect to the Odendaal rep1rshould like to remind
you of the following statement bp hlr. Basson at col5526:
"ln respect of only these four states-to-be [and he mentions
Damaraland, Hereroland, Tswanaland ancl Namaland] more than
g7,ooo people wiil have to be persuaded in terms of this Commission
to settle in these artificially created hornelands."
Do you have any reaçon, Sir, to disagree with the fipre 97,000ap-
proximately, to which he refeinthat connection?
Mr. DAHLMAN NMr. President, 1 cannot check this figure at the
moment-it sounds rather high.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, this will no doubt be clanfied in the context of
yesterday's session in which the precise breakdowwas put into the
record. Passing on from thaMr.Basson goes on to say in colum5526:
"Let the hlinister uslhow we are going to persuade them. They
[that is presumably the authorities] failed with the removal scheme
in \irindhoek to Katuturaand fared as badly with the removal
Hoachanas to Utzawisis."
Now, Sir, pausing there again, since this is the first mention of this latter,
couldyou as briefiy as possible, Sir, describe what you know about the
removal of Narnas frorn Hoachanas to Hzawisis to which Mr. Basson
refers?
Mr.DAHLMAN Nl. Prcsident1can brieflsay that1am very familiar
witlthese things. I have been there at the of r958 andbeginiiinof
1959,when the Narnas, the Red Nation, in Hoachanas complained about 1VITNEÇSES AND EXPERTS . 521
the idea of going to another Reservein Hzawisis and I am very farniliar
with the background . ..
The PRESIDEN T :. Dahlmann, you were asked to give the picture in
respect of it, think.1s that so, hIr. Gross?
hIr.G~oss:I asked the witness to tell us as bnefly as possible whether
he could explain the circumstances accounting for the difficulties in
connection with the removal?
$Ir.DAHL~IANhN l.:President,there were sonie people in Hoachanas,
the so-calli:d Red Nation, who did not want to go to the new proposed
reserveHzawisis. andthe Government tried to persuade them because at
that time it was the impression that they woiild have better grazing
grounds at Hzawisis and later on during the prolonged period of drought
they did not have enough water there. But the Government was trying
to persuade only a part of these members of the Red Nation to go to
the new Reserve and especially the younger people, the older people had
from the beginning, the right to stay there as long as they wished. There
is, of course, alwaps the factor of reluctance and suspicion againnew
schemes, that is the same thing al1over the world, and some people have
gone to the new Reserve and some others have not and they are free to
stay there and that is a very limited number.
The PRESIDENT :OWmany went and hoiv many stayed approxi-
mately ?
Rlr.DAHLMAN N . President,1 cannot give you the exact figure but
1 would say fifty-fifty.
. Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, Alr. Basson, after referring to the rernoval prob-
lem connected with the removal of the perçons you have just described,
goes on to Say as follows and he is refening to the hlinister, who has
spoken :
"Now he blames 'agitators'. For years they have been struggling
to move the people from the oId location iii Windhoek to the new
one, and there are still 7,000 people in the old location. It isanot
question of agitators but the problem isthisand 1was one of the
few who, at the time, warned the Prime hlinister and it is on record
inthis House, that when you do çomething iii the name of apartheid,
then u-hatever you do, whether it is good or bad, they resist iitand
is turned down." (Colurnns5526 and 5527.)
Sir, would you agree with Mr. Basson's analysis that a reason for the
refusa1 to move is that it is, as he said, done in the name of apartheid?
Mr. DAHLMAKN Y:es and no, hlr. President. As far as the Hereros are
concerned, 1 am of the same opinion as Mr. Basson but as far as the other
tribes areconcerned, 1 am not in agreement with hlr. Basson and the
Herero population consists of only8 per cent.of the total population of
South West Africa.
Mr. GROÇS: NOW,Sir, we will corne backtayour testimony with respect
to the Hereros and their political activities. But first, we began with
referring to the Katutura removal problem as possibly relevant to the
greater migration as it is referred inthe Commission report. 1 referto
the reasons given by the persons concerned, or representatives of them,
in opposition to the removal. 1had referred yesterday, if 1 may refresh
the witness's recollection, &Ir.President, to the summary contained in a
Commission of Enquiry report of a memorandum which had been sub-
mitted in September 1959 to the Advisory Conimittee concerning this
problem. l'ou recall that, Sir?92. SOUTH WEST AFRICA
&Ir.DAHLMANNT :O the Advisory .. .?
&Ir.G~oss: Yes, Sir, 1referred yesterday to the summary-Advisory
Board it is called.
, Mr. DAHLMANT Nh:e Advisory Board of Katutura.
Mr. GROSS:Apparently so, Sir. The reference-and 1 wanted to get
this clear in your recoilection-is to paragraph20 of the Commiççionof
Enquiry report, to which 1referred yesterday, and 1believe you testified
you were familiar with these proceedings?
Rfr.DAHLMAEY Ne:s, I referred to paragrapzo.
Rlr. GROSSN :OW,paragraph 20 states as follows-this is the Commis-
sion of Enquiryreport, that this dissatisfaction, and it relates to previous
sentences: "On the part of certain of the occupants of the old location,
chiefly the Hereros, there has existed for some considerable time dissatis-
faction .. .";then, if you notice, Sir, reference is made to the general
opposition to the move, which are the words used by the Enquiry Com-
rnissioner:
"general opposition to the move only became evident in September
1959,when it first came to the krlowledge of the municipal ofFicials
in chargeof the location. A meeting of the Advisory Board was then
convened, and it was attended by some zoo Natives, and three
grounds of objection to the removal to Katutura were advanced."
I summarized them yesterday as reflected, here. Do you recall, Sir, the
testimony, at this point?
Mr. DAHLMANY Ne:s,I recall that.
. Mr. G~oss: Now, this jsto refresh your recollection, Sir. In the report
of the Committee on South West Africa (this is the GeneraEAsscmbly
OficiaERecord,Fifteenth Session, Supplement No. 12 Al44641there is a
lengthier sumrnary than the one given in the Commission of Enquiry
report, which is headed "Reasons for the Opposition to the Removal",
and that appears on pages 21 and following of the report of the South
West Afnca Cornmittee.
Now, arnong the reasons for the opposition to the rernoval are the
following:
"Chief Kutako, the OPO,[that is the Ovamboland People'sOrga-
nization] and SIVANU[dl three, if you recall, had joined in this
. evidence] also contested the allegation that the old location was too
small for expansion and expressed their opinion that the reason for
the removal to Katutura was the fact that 'European' houses had
been built right to the borders of the old location, which stood in the
way of further European expansion in the area, and that the
authorities regarded it as undesirable for Europeans and non-
, Europeans to live close to each other."
Do you have any reasoa to question the acciiracy of the sumrnary,
which 1 have just read, that thiswas indeed one of the reasons assigned
by the Natives for the refusal to move?
Mr. DAHLMAXN 1:do disagree with the contents of this statement.
Mr. G~oss: You disagree. Do you have any reasons, Sir, to disagree
with the accuracy of this summary as to their reasons, quite apart from
the merits or demerits of their reasons?
Mr.DAHLIIIANY Ne:s, 1 dohave.
hlr. GROSSY :ou disagree with this as an accurate summary?
Mr.DAHLMAN1 Nd:o. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 523
Mr. G~oss:Now, Sir, have you yourself ...
The PRESIDEN m at about your reasons? You were asked for your
reasons.
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President, there were negotiations between the
town couni:il and the Advisory Board for years and years anwastquite
obvious, if you see the site of the old locatinnWindhoek and ifyou
know the population figure, thatsomething had to be done because the
sitewas too small and there was no extension possible. The\vasa rail-
way line, an industrial area and it was impossible to extend this old
location,so some other plan had to be drawn up and al1these things were
in agreement with the Advisory Board and the Advisory Board had the
opportunity to talk to thdifferent people whom they represented. After
long discussion, it was finallyreed to build tliis new township at the
present site. The Advisory Board had the choict: between three sitas,
far as 1remember correctly, and they decided that the new township,
Katutura, should be built on the present site. You cannot build a town-
ship from 1:odayto tomorrow, or from September to December, so it was
very well known to cverybody in Windhoek tliat this township was under
construction,and not onIy in September 1959 .he township was sup-
posed to be completed-the kst part-in May 1960 and itwas supposed
to be fully completed somewhere in theiddle of 1961 O.dy in Septem-
ber 19jg, suddenly, there was a movement against the removal. At that
stage, 3Ir. Presidcnt, rnay huhad been evaluated already.
The PRESIDENT Kevaluated.
Mr. DAHLMANN VaIuated, yes; and the people living in these huts
were satisfied with the valuation and only then started the agitation
against thi: valuation, the removal and, finally, it culrninated in the
complete refusal to go to the new township and in the disturbances.
Afr.GROSS :OW, Sir.Were you finishecl?
Mr. DAHLMANN 1would like to mention one otlier thing, Mr. Presi-
dent. Mr. Cross cluoted part of the report of the Commission of Enquiry,
but it was of course only the allegation from the witnesses and nthe
findings.1do not know whether it is advisablcto . . .
The PRESIDENTL :Vhatwas the finding of the Coinmission?
nlr.DAHLMANN: If1 continue to read paragraph 20, Rlr. President:
"According to the ..."
Mr.GROSS :r. President,1would like to say that1am, Sir, with al1
respect, trying to keep, to the best of my cornpetence and wit, my
questions to a narrow compas. We are Iosing sightthe question. 1have
lost sight of the question in this discursive answer.
The PRESIDENT1 : have not, Mr. Gross. Irour suggestion was, to the
witness, that the onty reasonora reason, for removing the people frorn
the old site to the new site was to make way for White homes or White
buildings and you askedhim if he had any reason to disagree with that.
He is nout giving you his reasons and siyou have, in the coursof the
lasthalf hi~ur, referred again to the report anthe reason ~vhichwas
advanced at that particular time, and you seek to connect it up with
PIIrBasson's statement, it seems to me that if tho witnows concludes
by saying ~vhatwas the finding, then the Court knolvs precisely how the
rnatter was viewed then by the Commissioners. 1 think the witness
should reply to it. Then that concludesyour statement on the matter,
Mr. Dahlmann.
Mi. DAHLMAN:N Air.President :1continue to read paragraph20 :524 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"hccording to the evidence of the Presidents of the two Native
political organizations, namely the Ovamboland Peoples Organiza-
tion and the South West African Union (which will be referred to
again as the'OPO' and the 'SLVANU' )hese arestill the only factors
upon which the present opposition is being based. There is. too, the
position which Advocate Kotzéhas urged the Commission to accept
as correct."
And, again, Advocate Kotzéwas a representative of the non-Whites.
The PRESIDENT I:at isthe conclusion?
Mr. DAHLMAN N :e conclusion?
"The first of the grounds upon which the opposition tothe removai
was based by Advocate Kotzé, Le., that an increase of rent to jçza
month was beyond the means of most of the Natives, is, in my
opinion, not sound. llr. de Wet, the location superintendent, stated
that the house rent had not yet been fixed and that it had been
decided that rentswould be determined according to each family's
earning capacity.He said, too, that the bus fares would not bein-
creased to any appreciable extent. As to the second factor, i.e., lhat
the proposed regulations are too strict, 1 am not in a position to
judge. The regulations were not put before the Commission nor were
any specific instances in which the regulations operated harshly
referred to. Where, however, one and a quarter million pounds are
being spent upon Native housing it can well be understood that
provision must be made in the reguIations for the maintenance of
law and order in the location and some degree of strictness inevi-
table.
1 am of the opinion that the evidence which was adduced before
the Commission has proved beyond any question that the riot in
Windhoek Location on the night of the 10th to the 11th December
must be regarded as part of the propaganda which those who claim
to be the representatives of the Herero tribe have been making with
the object of disparaging the Union of South Africa in the eyes of
the United Nations. Itis clear that the rernovaof the inhabitants
of the old location to Katutura waç to have started at the end of
May 1960 ,nd it would have been at least another year before the
Hereros would have been required to rnove, and no other logical
reason for opposing the removal at tliis poinof time would appear
to exist."
The PRESIDENT How much more is there of it, Mr. Dahlmann?
Mr. DAHLMA NONnly a short paragraph ; the last paragrap:
- -
"The reasons for the opposition put fonvard by the self-appointed
leaders ofthe Native population are not acceptable, for the letters
sent from New York to those same leaders show clearly that the riot
and the violence of which it formed part were exactly what the team
which claimed to represent them at the United Nations was hoping
for. They wanted it to happen and, when African blood was shed,
they were, as Kerina so naiveIy put it, prepared 'to make the most
of it'."
hlr.GROSS : r. PresidentI should like to state for the record that it
is not the purpose of these questions-this line of enquiry-to suggest
in any way that this honourable Court should revie~vor reconsider the
findings of the Commission of Enquiry. My sole purpose, Sir, and my WITSESSES ASD EXPERTS 525
questions have been intended to be directcd solely to this end,was to
establishiithe record the reasons aclvanced by certain of the people and
leaders concerned, the expression of their views and their reasons, Sir.
When 1 asked the question of the witness, which 1çhall ask him again,
with your permission, concerning another reason assigned by the persons
themselves, my question, 1 believe the record will show, Sir, was whether
the witnesç had any reason to question the accuracy of the fact that these
recasonsurere assigned by these peopleAnd, Sir, it in that context and
for that purpose that 1 read the following reason assigned by the OPO,
the South West Africa National Union, and the Chief of the Hereros, as
distinguished from their motives or incitation tiy others,to which you
have testified repeatedly, and ask whether you have any reason to doubt
that, in their testimony bcfore the Advisory Board, they assigned the
following as a reason for the opposition to the rnove.
;\Ir. DAHLMASS:May 1 interrupt before the. ..
The PRESDENT:No, answer onlyquestions put to you, Alr.Dahlmann.
&Ir.G~oss: In fairness to the witness, whom 1may have misled, 1 just
want to make the purpose of my question clear, Mr. President, that any-
thing relevant to the answer, in your judgment and discretion, of course
you may refer to, but 1 want the question clearly understood, Sir. ISit
correct to Say that they advanced the following as a reason for thc
opposition to the move?
1will read now from page 65 of the report of the Committee on South
West Africa, to which I have referrcd:
"It has been said that the old location sitt: is too small for espan-
sion; your petitioners contest this allegation. Any observer esa-
mining the area of the oId location would not agree that there is no
land for expansion; possibly some Europeans' land ~vouldhave to
be eqiropriated to facilitate such expansion, but surely this is
preferable to moving a whole African community? In any event, if it
is true that no further landis available, this does not necessarily
imply that the present location shouldbe removed; further land in
other parts of Windhoek could be made available for the use of non-
\mites, in addition to the old location."
110 you have any reason to bclieve, Sir, that that was not a reason
assigned to the Advisory Board by these groups?
Mr. DAHLMAN N :. Presiclen1.do not doubt that theçe reasons have
been forwarded to the Committee on South West Africa, but 1 cannot
agree with these reasons because 1 know that they are not true-that is
the only thing 1 can say.
Mr. GROSS N:ow, Sir,1 should like to put into evidence, with respect
to rny cross-examination and solely for purposes of the cross-esaniination,
reference to Annex 6 of the report of the Committee on South IVest
Africa.
The PRESIDEXT 1s this in evidence already, &Ir.Gross?
Mr. GROSSI :t is in the documentation; yes, Sir.
The PRESIDENT T:hen it is in evidence.
Mr. GROSS : hat is correct, is it not? 1 wanted to confirm that, hlr.
President.
The PRESIDENT:Yes, thank you.
hlr. GROSS:Annex 6 is entitled "Mcmorandum submitted to the Com-
mission of Enquiry on behalf of Chief Hosea Kutako, the Ovamboland526 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Peoples Organization, and the South West Africa National Union", and
what 1 have just read froni page 65 of the report of the Cornmittee on
South West Africa is, in fact, from Annex6, which is the memorandum
itself.
Now, Sir, you have testified that you were present during the pro-
ceedings before the Commission of Enquiry-have you not testified to
that effect, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAHT Nh:at is correct, Rlr. President.
Bh. G~oss: And that you are familiar ïvith these prmeedings?
hIr. DAHLYAN :Yes, hlr. President.
Rlr. GROSSA :nd that you have stated, not merely by reference to the
finding of the Commission of Enquiry, but on the basis of your own ob-
servation and analysis, you have gven testimony with respect to so-
called incitation of the Natives from certain perçons in New York? 1s
that correct?
Mr. DAHLMANT N:at is correct.
hlr. GROSSW : hen you responded to my question concerning tvhether
or not these reasons were assigned to the Advisory Board and referred
to in the Commission of Enquiry, would you now wish to amend your
response to me that these reasons might have been advanced to the
Committee on South West Africa but were not given to the Advisory
Board or known to the Commission ofEnquiry?
Alr.DAHLMANh Nlr:. President, these reasons were known to the Com-
mission of Enquiry, and the Commission of Enquiry referred also to a
meeting with the Town Council, attended by theMayor, theTown Coun-
cillors, the Chief of Police, the Native Commissioner, and approximately
200 non-Whites; there was freedom of speech and everybody could Say
what they liked, and these reasons were forwarded at that special
meeting; 1 can remernber it very well.
Mr.G~oss:And,Sir, was this not another reason assigned, and a rather
important reason, for the refusa1to move, and 1 quote again £rom the
memorandum submit ted to the Commission of Enquiry :
"(i)The proposed removal to Katutura is a further reason for the
insecurity of the non-imites. It is always the non-CVhiteswho are
moved to suit the convenience of theimites. Your Petitioners fear
that if Windhoek expands further the non-Whites will once more be
moved. At onetime the HererosinWindhoek lived where the 'Native
Hospital' is today. The Namas in Windhoek once lived where the
Government buildings stand. They were al1 moved to the Old
Location.
Sirnilarly Hereroç occupied Augaikaand Furst Enwalte when the
South African Government took control of South West Africa. They
were forced to move to Orumbo in 1921, and to Aminuis lieserve in
1925.
Katututa rneans 'We have no permanent resident'. Al1 these
removals without their consent make the African people feel aiiens
in their own lands." (P. 65.)
This is the end of this reason, letter (i).Doyou,Sir, now that 1have read
from the memorandum submitted to the Advisory Board, recal1that this
waç,indeed, a reason assigned for the refusal to move?
Mr. DAHLMANh NIr:. President, 1recollect these things very well; that
wasa reason given, and1 alsoremember tliat all these reasons were dealt WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 527
with at this public meeting. 1 do not know whether 1 am allowed to
explain these things further?
The PRISSIDENT N O,apparently Mr. Gross oiily wants you to answer
whether tliat w:ls one of the reasons given, ancl that al1 appears in the
evidence.
Mr. DAHLMAN :Nhey were definitely reasons given.
RTr.GKOSS:Now, Sir, are you aware of the reason given with respect to
the opposition to the so-called policto eçtablish buffer zones between
White and non-White areas? Does that phrase "buffer zones" in this
context mean anything to you, Sir?
MT. DAHLMAN1 N :ave heard this phrase.
Mr.GROSSN : OW, Sir, would it thebecorrect to describe the policy as
it is described in the General Assembly resolution 1567 of the 15th
Session, Deccmber 1960, in ~vhich the Genernl Assembly resolution,
dealing with the Windhoek problem, states as follows, in the preamble,
among other things:
"Nnting with regret that the constructiori of the new Location at
Katutura is partofthe plan laid down1~ythe present Prime Minister
inhis former capacity as Minister of Native Affairs tothe effect that
Native Locations in urban areas, based o~ia policy of apartheid,
must be situated in such a manner that a permanent 'buffet strip of
at least500 yards' on which 'no developnient at al1 isalIowed' is
maintained 'between the Native residential area and that of any
other racial group'.(P. 32.)
The citation to this in the General Assembly resolutions of the rjth
Session is to the Union of South Africa, Senate Debates,1gj6, No. 15,
Columns 3584 and 3885.
Now, with respect to this "bufier strip", tvhich iç a no-man's land, if
one may cal1it that, the buffer strip of 500 yards-canyou explain, or
first of al1may1 ask, do you know of your own knowledge whether this
policy of a buffestripis objected to by non-Writeç as afacet of apart-
heid?
Mr. DAHLMANK Ye:s, hIr. PresidentI have heard that there is op-
position against this so-ca1led buffer zone, buI think that as far as
Windhoek and Katutura are concerned it is rather immaterial because
there are other buildings for other non-Native population groupwhich,
to my mincl, are closer than 500 yards away from the border of Katutura;
there was also the alIegation that Katutura has been fenced in, but this
is also not true-thereis no fence whatsoever.
hir.GROS: During your testirnony, Sir,1 waa passed a message of a
rather urgent nature and 1 am afraid I did not quite hear. Was ityour
testimony that the buffer zone does not exist in this situation?
hlr.DAHLMANI X:can think of buildings of cither population gioups
which are closer.
hlr.GROSS :his wonld be an exception to the 'tiufferzone policy, then?
Mr. DAHLMANN : can only refer to Windhoek, Mr. President; 1 am
not familiar withal1the townships.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir.
Mr. DAHLMAN1 X:now that there are other townships in South West
Africa whiçh are very closely situated to the townships of other popula-
tion groups.
Mr. GROS: NOW,Sir, with respect to the buffi:r zone, or iI rnay cal1528 SOUTHWEST AFRICA
it no-man's land policy, of 500 yardsinwhich no development at al1 is
allowed, have you, in your political observations and tours, ever corne
upon such bufferstrips or buffer zones?
hlr. DABLMANN 1:have heard about it, Mr. President; 1 have also
heard cornplaints about it; it has also been said ahbuffer zone exists,
or is supposed to exist, in Katutura; but, as1 have said already, the
buildings of other population groups are in very closecinity of the site
of Katutura.
Mx. G~oss: Finally, with respect to the general reasons assignedby
these petitioners in the memorandum from which 1 am quoting, the
major heading under paragraph 31 is "The proposed removal is primarily
rnotivated by the apartheid policy lvhich they bitterly oppose". Sir,
perhapç you feelthat you have ansivered thisgeneratquestion adequate-
ly,or to the best of your satisfactionbut would you agree or disagree
that the persons and organizations here quoted and represented do
bitterly oppose the apartheid policy?
Mr. DAHLMAN1 Nh:ave already stated that these organizations are in
opposition to tlie apartheid policy and al1 these political organizations,
except the Herero dominated political organization, do not enjoy
majority support.
&Ir.GROSS In pour references to anti-Government activities, whicis
the general phrase you used a nurnber of tirnes in your testimony, did
yau mean by anti-Government activities or anti-Government position to
include opposition, bitter or otherwise, to apartheid?
Mr.UAHLMANY Ne:sThese organizations are opposed and 1think the
anti-Governmentactivities, which 1also rnentioned, are very limiteand
actually the only thing 1 can think of is at present the refusa1 to go to
Katutura by the Hereros and the unwillingness to CO-operatewith the
Government on the part of the Hereros.
Mt-.G~oss: Noiv, with respect to the Hereros, to tvhorn you have
referred, have you not, specifically, for example, in your testimony in the
record at, page471,sufi~areferred to the Chiefs i,ouncil as the "strongest
non-White anti-Government group in South West Africa". 1s that cor-
rect?
hlr.DAHLMASN T:at is correct.
Mr. GROSSA :nd ou referred to the disciplinof the Hereros, did you
not?
Mr. DAHLMAN :Nhat is correct.
Mr. G~oss: And you referred to their political consciousness and
political activity, did you not?
Mr. DAHLMANN I:do not think so. I have said that the leaders are
politically very conscious and, due to the tribal discipline, they have of
course the support of the majority of the Herero nation and 1said that
the reason for the support is, tmy mind. that the political leadership
and the tribal leadership are identical.This applieç only to the Herero
nation.In other political organizations there is no identity between tribal
and political leadership.
Mr. GROS: Now, with respect to the tribal or chieftain leadership and
the discipline of their followers, would ÿouy, looking at it broadly if
you will, that the Government has encouraged political activities and
fostered political advancement on the part of the Hereros, leaders and
followers alike?
hlr.DAHLMANK The Hereros are completely free to espress their WITXESSES AND EXPERTS 529
opinion. Shey have their political party. Actually they had quite a
number of political parties. They supported SWANU, SWAPO. Then
they formed their first party-NACIP-then their second part y, which
was calledUNIPP, and now another party which is caIledNUDO. So the
political activities within the nation are unlimited or unrestricted.
Mr. G~ciss: Ithink my question was, or was iiitended be,would you
say that the Goveinment encourages and fosters political activity, or
discouragt:~it,or somewhere in between?
Mr. DAHL~~AN TN:e Government encourages the political organization
within the different groups to go ahead with the development of the
nations and of the respective territorieBut I think it is not the policy
of any governrnent to support or to encouragethe formation of so many
political parties. That is up to the people themselves to form parties; they
can do this and they have done so.
Mr. G~c>ss:And would you say-apart from what we have already in
the record with respect to the denial of permission to Chief Kutako and
his advisers to procced to other parts of Africa-that apart from that
incident, the Government does foster and encourage political movernent
and political activity by facilitating the movement of political leaders
throughout the Territory?
Nr. DAHLMANN 1:can only state that many political meetings have
taken place within the whole of South West Africaand the most violent
accusations have been made in the speeches against the Government. To
mention only one example: "Venvoerd and his criminal gang or band."
1 have said already that1 do not want to refer to these emotional state-
ments, but it is only to give you an idea that thcse political meetings are
possibIe within the Territory and the leaders of the parties travel
throughout the country very estensively. 1cannot deny that sometimes
permission has not been granted for them to go to certain places oto
hoId meetings at certain places. This is true. But, on the other hand, you
find, for example, Mr. ICapuuo in Tses or in Ksantzplatz or in Berseba.
These aie 350 miles away from Windhoek. He is free tgo and he nor-
mally goes by car. There are certain restrictions sometimes, but on the
otherhand it is possible to hold these meetings and 1have attendedmany
meetings already.
MT. G~oss: These places to which you have just referred are al1so-
called Reserves or home areas, are they?
hlr. DAIILMAXNS:ome of them are and sorne of them are not.
Mr. G~oss: Which of those you named are not?
3fr.D~~HL~~IAN ThN:se 1 have named are home areas: K~antzplatz,
Berseba, 'l'sesHe is, of course, interested in meeting the leaders in the
Reserves, but he also goes to Gibeon. Gibeon is not a Reserve.
Mr. GROSS:Does the sanle freedom of movement which you liave
descnbed ;ils0reIate tothe u~ban areas such as \Vindhoek, where Natives
work ?
Mr. DAFILMANN M:any of these political meetings have taken place in
IVindhoek. 1cannot think of any political meetinin Katutura but 1can
think of many political meetings in the old location.
Alr. GROSS n respect of the areas outside the so-called dormitory
towns or locations, are political activities ofl'hites permitted in the
so-cailed White areas where non-Whites work?
Mr. DAHLMAK :I have never heard of sucha meeting and never heard
of any restriction; 1 have never heardthat a political meeting was not530 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
perrnitted.I think therewas no limitation whatscievcr. The normal place
wherc they have these meetings is a Pepper tree, in the old location; and
they normally take place on a Sunday afternoon where definitely al1the
White political meetings would not be permitted.
AIr.GROSS:This too refers to the location, 1 think you said, Sir.
Mr. DAHLMA SXo the location in Windhoek.
iilr.GROÇS: XOW, Sir, with respectto the White areas, as they are
constantly referred to although the majority of the peopIe who work
there obviousIy are non-White, as the record shows, you teçtified, in
yesterday's proceedings, at page489, supra, in rcsponse tomy question
"whether yoü are famifiar with the reasons given by Chief Kutako for
refusal to participate in the consultations on the basis proposed" :
"On the first occasion, that waçinJanuary 1964, Hosea Kutako
said that he did not have time enough to discuss this matter with his
headmen; and the second rejection of the invitation 1 cannot judge
because there is no reaction whatsoever frorn the side of Hosea
Kutako."
Now, Sir, may I ask, parenthetically, diyou or did you not testify
that the Chiefs Councilhas a policy of non-CO-operationwith the Wiites?
1s that a correct version of your testirnony?
Mr. DAHLMANK The Chiefs Council follows the policy of non-co-
operation with the present Government.
Rlr.GROSS :trith the present Government, Sir?
hlr.DAHLMAK Ir:s,hlr.President.
Mr. GROSSN : ow, Sir, with respect to the present Government, as
distinguished from non-CO-operationwith Ilrhites generallyifthat is the
distinctionyou seek to drawr,Ishould like tu refer tA/AC.rog/l'et. zr3,
a letter from Windhoek, 13 January 1964, from hlr. Kapuuo, the chief
designate, for Hosea Kutnko-it is signed "for Hosea KutakoW-and
which relatesto the problems in connection with theconsultations which
had been proposed. 1should like to read the letter, since it is apparently
the circumstance to which you referred in your testimony oa page cited,
in which you said that Hosea Kutako said he did not have time enough
to discuss this matter with his headmen. The letter is as folloms-it is
addressed to "His Honour the Administrator, Government Buildings,
WindhoekM-
"Sir,
Your invitation tohave talks with us on 30January 1964 reached
me while 1was in the Aminuis Native Reserve. 1invited some Head-
men and prominent men from the Native Reserves with whom 1
was to have corne to you. On Our arriva1 in Windhoek we went to
the ChiefNative Commissioner at his invitation, who said that we
should give him Ourgrievances in writingsothat he could send them
to you before we come to you. At thesame time, all the men from
the Native Reserves with whom 1 %vasto come to you were given
three days to stay in Windhoek.
In Windhoek 1 needed more tirne to discuss with the headmenand
to write down the items which were to be brought 'toyou.
My cook, driver and men from the Reserves were given up to
ro January 1964 to stay in Windhoek.
\!%en we protested to the Chief Native Commissioner that three
days were a very short period, our permits were extended to another WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 53 1
four clays, ending onIO January. The Chief Native Commissioner
told us to go back to the Native Reserves and toreturn to Windlioek
on 28 January 1964. We told him that we were not rich people and
to go and corne back on 28 January would entai1 much espenses.
\$%en we asked him why the Government did not want us to stay
longer, he replied that the towns were Eiiropean areas ivhere the
Africans could be allowed to stay temporarily, and he could there-
fore not allow us to stays long aswe pleased.
He suggested that we should rather discuss the items to be
brought to the Administrator in one ofthe Native Reserves where,
in his words, we could stay aslong as we pleased.
We replied that Windhoek was in the centre of the territory and
was also the seatofthe Adrninistrator.
We conclude from this impolite attitude of the Government that
there was no real desire on your part to have talks with us. No self-
respecting people treatcd in that way can be expected to accept an
invitation, andwe have therefore decideci not have talks with you
on 30 January 1964."
Now, Sir, this letter-waç this, so far as you iinderstand, the situation
that you were characterizing when you testified at pag489 that Kutako
said that he did not have time enough to discuss this matter with his
headrnen? Or were you refcrring to another incident, or event, or com-
municat ion?
Mr. DAEILMAN No,:Mr. President, Ireferred to that incident.
The PRESIDENT: Mr. Gross, you read a long letteI.do not know what
it is suggested the function of the Court is in relation to the statements
therein. 1s the function of the Court to note that these statements were
made, or is the Court to inquire into the tmth of the allegations made in
those statements?
hlr.GROSSN :o, Sir. With al1respect,1 intend to connect up with my
next questions now, Sir. This bears on the question of the witness's
testimony with respect to thc freedom of movement and restrictions
imposed, to which he has again referred in his testimony just now in
response to my question.
The PRESIDENT I:understand.
Mr. GROSS:And, &Ir. President, if 1 may presume to elaborate one
more sentence, the Court, in my own respectful submission, would indeed
find it difficult to evaluate whether or not a particular letter or a state-
ment in a particular letter iç true or not true, to the extent tliat the
authenticity of the letter itsisconcerned aça statement by the indivr-
dual and a.sto which there has been no impeachment. It would seem,Sir,
then, that it would be of significance with respect to the political con-
sciousness, the political attitudes, the state of nasnexpressed by the
individuals concerned and generally the reactioils to such restrictiass
may be irnposed. And it is in that respect th1proceed now, with your
permission, to my next question to the witness, lvhich1 believe may
connect up with the matter of restrictions and limitations.
You testified, on page 489, supra, of the samt: verbatim record, an1
am still refcrring to this specific instance, wIasked you-
"You are not aware of any imposition of restriction based upon
the pnsslaws and the length of time for which he [that is Kutako]
was offered opportunity to stay for consult;ltions? Are you aware of
that?" SOUTH WEST AFRICA
532
And your response\vas:
"No. (1said 'are you aware of that' and you said 'No'.] He is
entitled to stay as long as he wishes in Windhoek as he asfar as
1 know, enempted from the pass laws, and he is entitled to stas
long as he xvishesin Windhoek, and the sarne applies to his driver
and,Ithink, to hiç cook, andit rnight be to one or two of his servants,
but 1 am not sure of that; butTam pretty sure that it applies to
him personally, to his cook and this driver."
Now hc being, as you have testified, Sir, the respected Chief of the
Here~os and thcir political leader, would you now, in the light of this
letter which1 have read, indicate what basis, if any, you had for your
testimony, which I have cited, onpage 489?
XIr.DAHLMANN Y:s, hlr. President, 1 can produce another letter in
which Hosea Kutako askç for permission to ereca new house for himself
in \frindhoek, in the jflindhoek locatand, &Ir.President, Chief Hosea
Kutako, is,1 think, living more in \irindhoek than in Aminuis. As far as
1 know these statements, or alleged statementby the municipal Native
Commissioner have nothing to do with Hosea Kutako himself, because
1think it is at least comrnon knowledinWindhoek that he spends most
of his time in Windhoek.He is an old man, he needs medical treatment,
so sometimes, of course, he is in Aminuis, but most of the time heiii
Windhoek.
&Ir.G~oss: By Windhoek you mean the Native location, Sir?
31rD .AHLMAK Km:ean the location, yes; and the town council has
offered him a four-roomed house in Katutura.
>Ir.G~oss: Now, Sir, do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy of
the reference in thisetter to the reply which he received when he asked
"why the Government did not want us to stay loiiger, he replied that the
towns were European areas whcre the Africans woiild be allowed to stay
temporarily", and so forth? 1s this, from the point view of your ob-
servation and knowledge, a fact, that Africans may not stay in Euro ean
areas, escept by permit and for a duration fixed by the authori7ies
&Ir.DAHLMAB :(1)Mr. President, non-imitesfrorn the Reserves must
have a permit if they want to stay in the urban area. 1think the rcasons
are obvious.(2)1 do not think that this statemeiit alleged to the Native
Commissioner does reflect actually the attitudof the Government. (3)
The Administrator was and is highly intereçted to corne together with
Hosea Kutako and to have discussions. Actually, this first meeting
was proposed only to meet each other, so tHosea ICutako should know
the Administrator, and it wasa courtesy visit, ~lothing buthat.And,
3fr. President, the Administrator trto create-1 do not know whether
he did but he tried to create-a very nice atmosphere for this firçt
courtesy visit by paying a visit to the grave of the old Herero Chief,
Samuel Afaharero,in Okahandja.On his rvayback frorn Swakopmund to
if7indhoek he stopped at Okahandja and paid a visit to the grave of the
former Herero leader. It was on1 a few weeks before this first meeting
between the Administrator and &utako was supposed to take place.
Mr. G~oss: hlr. Dahlmann, during thc couse of your testirnony
yesterday, you made one or two comments with respect to the agricul-
tural potentiaI of certain homelands. Knowing of course that are not
an agricultural expert, and not profeçsing to be, rievertheless, in order to
appraise the possible political attitudes and actions of the peowho WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 533
would be involved in a move toward homelands, it may, Sir, be helpful
to the honourable Court to have information concerning the actual
situation in these proposed hornelands from thestandpoint of agriculture,
let us Say, since you have referred to that in your testimony. Sir, are you
familiar, or have you heard of Professor Weilington, whose name is
J. H. Wellingtoii?
&Ir.DAHL~EAX Xo, Mr. President, I have not heard of him.
Mr. G~oss: Professor Wellington was, as the record shows since he is
cited in the pleadings, a Professor of Geography for rnany years at the
University of Witwatersrand and he is, 1 think, also according to the
publicatioii to which 1shaIl refer, Doctor of Science of CambridgeUniver-
sity. In ari article on South Wcst Africa Proft:ssor Wellington, in the
publication Optima of hlarch1965, which is published in South Africa as
a quarterly review "in the interests'of mining, industrial,scientific and
economic progress", describecl as followson page46 the proposed Herero-
land:
"To the east of the hardveld the Herero homeland [it is ~efer~ing
here to the proposed Herero homeland] is :iIso of immense size;its
5.9million hectares includes the four home arens [which he proceeds
to naine] together with some additional government land and a
small block of white farms around Rietfontcin or Euitepoç, near the
Bechuanaland border. ln the western part of the homeland, boie
holes go down here and there intothe sub-sand rock formations, and
the otnurambas [and then he names them] provide service water
sporaclically, but at least three-quartersof the area is ~vaterless.
cxcepr for pan water here and there for a few weeks after the rains.
The Herero asked forsome hardveld land in tlie Gobabis Iocality,
but they were informed that such land was already occupied."
And then 1 cal], particularly, Sii, your attention totIollowing çtate-
mcnt by Professor Wellington, also at page 46:
"The Herero homeland is almost entirely on the sandveld they
once scorned and dreaded. Aminuis, moçtly hardveld, and the one
reserve they really valued highlywillbe taken over by the Govern-
ment."
Now, Sir, on the basis of your knowledge and observation, if any,
would you, Sir, express agreement or disagreement with Professor M'el-
lington's analysis of the agricultural potentiin these terms?
Rlr. DAHLMAN N:r. President, when 1 referred yesterday to the
agricultural potentialof future homelands, 1 only referred to Namaland
and Damaraland. As far as the future Hereiolanci is concerned, Isaid
already there are negotiations possible with the Government and, as far
as the water position in the future Hereroland is concerned,1 think the
Odendaal plan rnakes it also clear that a pipeline is supposed to be built
from Okavango, one of the six water carrying rivers in South West
Africa,of which five are situatcd in non-White arcas. From thisOkavango
the pipeline is supposed ta be built to the future Hereroland, but 1 do
not want to argue about the agricultural possibilities of the potential of
Hereroland. I know the present Rcserves in which the Hereros are living
but 1 do not know very well the part which they are supposed to occupy,
and 1think that this matter isopen for discussion between the Hereros
and theauthorities. That is al1that 1 can Say.534 SOUTH M'EST AFRICA
Mr. GROSSN : ow, Sir, with reference to the proposed Damaralancl to
which you testified, Professor Wellington also has this to Say at page 46
of the same article in Optima:
"The new Damaraland, which absorbs the present Okombahe and
Otjohorongo reserves involves an unprecedented development. In-
creased from the Okombahe area of 446,00h0 ectares to 4.8 million
hectares, the new horneland [and 1 wiU cal1your attention to this
next sentence, Sir] will include among other additions 1.9 million
hectares of white farrnland in the inner or transitionai Namib zone,
which, against expert advice, had formerly been sold ta settlers by
the administration and had subsequently been found unsuitable for
white farming."
Now, Sir,with reference to your testimony yesterday at pages 510-511,
supra, that Damaraland as well asNamaland, are, from the point of view
of agriculture, extremely good areas, did you takeinto account, Sir, the
fact, iitisafact, that the 1.million hectares which would be part ofthe
Damaraland, had formerly been sold to settlers by the Administration,
and subsequently bccn found unsuitable for White farming?
Mr. DAHLMANT h:at is not the fact, Mr. President. According to my
knowledge, the large majority ofthispart hasnot bcen sold to any farmer.
That applies especially to theIVelwitschia area. The history of that part
of the country is as follows. Some parts of South West Africa experience
prolonged periods of drought. Faimers from these areas were allowed to
go witli their cattie or with their sheep to that completely undeveloped
part of South West Africa. 1 think from now on it was round about IO
yearç ago, and these farrnersfound that thisarea is very suitable and they
did not want to go back, and the Government was prepared to let them
land, on the basis, if they wish, that they can aftIO years time, if they
develop their farms properly (theyhad to start from the very beginning,
there was nothing, there were not even roads at that time), be entitlcd,
if they could prove that they had developed this country into a farming
area, to buy this land from the Government.
The first farmers who came to this part of South West Africa have
aiready bought their farms, but 1 must Say that the major part of these
farmers came only eight or nine years before the White Paper was issued
(the White Paper on the Odendaal report) and so at that time they did
not have their title Ior buying their farms. But 1 have been to that area
and 1cannot remember correctly, but it is a karakul sheep breeding area,
and 1 think the annual turnover of these farms, only in the karakul
sector, is over2million rand per year.
Yr. Griosç: Sir, afterstating that 1.9 million hectares of White farm-
land have been sold to settlers against expert advice, and had sub-
sequently been found unsuitable forIVhite farming, Professor Wellington
goes on to write as followsai the same page:
"The administration isnow buyingback these farms in the western
parts of the districts of Outjo and Karibib, alIowing generously for
improvements and adding vcrdrietgeld(sorriiwrnoney} to soften the
blow of having to relinquish the land. Of the R. 17 million [that is
84million pounds] earmarked by the Government for this repurchase
of 158farms, some R. 8 million has already been paid out and the
farmers have been allowed to remain on thcir farrns at a nominal M'ITNESSES AND EXPERTS 535
rental until the land is required by the Government for the possible
implementation of the homelands scheme."
Do you ha.ve any reason to doubt the accuracy of Professor Welling-
ton's statement that of the 17 million rand earmarked by the Govern-
ment for tlie repurchase of these farms, some 8 rnillion rand has already
been paid out, iiicluding "sorrow money", as he describes it?
hIr. DAHLMANX 1 :am not farniliar with these figures; thcy were
published in an officia1statement of the Administrator a few weeks ago,
but 1 am not familiar with whether these figures are correctIfProfessor
Wellington refers to the amount envisaged by the Odendaal plan for
purchasing these fa~ms,1 can only state the act.iial price is much higher
than the Odendaal Commission envisaged.
hIr. GROSS: Finally, with respect to Damaraland, as to which you
testifiedpi:sterday on pages510-511, strjbru,of the verbatim record, Pro-
fessor Wellington, describing the topography of the proposed Damara-
land,states as follows at page 46 of his article:
"Its sub-rectangular outline ertends south-westwards to the
border of the barrcn coastal Namib, where thc annual rainfall is less
than two inches. For the homeland as a whole, a mean rainfall of
about sis or seven inches would probably be afair estimate."
Pausing there, do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy ofProfessor
Wellington's statement in this respect?
The PRESIDENT In:what respect?
Mr. G~sss: That a mean rninfall of about sixor seven inches would
probably be a fair estimateforthe homeland as a whole.
The PRESIBENT \V:hy is it necessaryMI. Gross, in putting a question
such as that, to quote at the great length youare from various sources?
1s it, in the present context, to persuade the Court that what is saiby
Professor Wellington is correct, or is it for the purpose of merely getting
the view of this witness?
Mr. G~oss:It is,Sir,for enabling the Court, imy submission, to evaI-
uate testimony put fonvard as expert testirnony by the Responclent,
and in which the witness makes general characterizaiions or statements
concerning matters of concern in this context to the political attitudes,
political movements and the political aspirations of the individuals
concerned. Professor Wellington has written in a sense which I am
anxious to present to the Court, lengthy though it may be, for fear of
othenvise iloing disservice to the Courtby quoting sho~t sentences here
and there out of context.
The PRESIDENT N:ormally, Mr. Gross, in my view, ifyou are seeking
to persuade the Court that the picture painted by Professor Wellington
isthe correct picture and that the witness has given testimony which is
unreliable, then one deals specifically with each particular allegation
which is made. If you are not,1 do not understand why you are quoting
at such great length for the purpose of asking questions bvhichrelate only
to a very small portion of the statements you quote.
Jlr. GROSS : certainly will domy very beçt to observe the admonition,
Sir. The statement which 1 had in rnind, so that the record may be
crystal-clear in terms of my intention, which is of course to observe the
President's admonition, is that the witneçç had stated that Namaland
and Damaraland are, from the point of view of agriculture, "extiemely536 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
good areas". This was an unsolicited testimony on his part, and my
intention is to place into the reco~d, for the witness's evaluation and
agreement or disagreement, the analysis by a professor ofgeography of
South Africa who writes on this subject.
The PRESIDENT If you put to him the specific allegations made,
&Ir.Gross, there içno objection-1 thought 1had made my view on this
clear.
Mr. GROSS:NOW,just to complete the sentence, Professor Wellington
at page 46 concludes the excerpt of which 1 have given only part and
therefore wish to complete so that there will be no possibility of distortion
out of context :
"Under suck conditions the sub-desert grasses in years of good
rain are very nutritious, but in the manyroughty years the grazing
over moçt of the area is escessiveIy çparse."
Would you agree or disagree with this in terms of your testimony that
Damaraland is,from the point of view of agriculture, an "extremely good
area"?
hirDAHLMA N1cannot sayanything asfar as the figures of Professor
Wellington are concerned, 1 am unaware of that. It is aphenornenon of
the karakul breeding areas that they have a low rainfall; therefore the
farmers are breeding cattle in areas with higher rainfalland karakul
sheep in areas with lower rainfall. If you want to breed cattle there,
Damaraland and also Nmaland are not suitable,or less suitable, for that
purpose, but 1 think the farmers in the Welwitschia bloc in the future
Damaraland and the White farmers in the future Damaraland and in
the future NamaIand have proved already that they are very suitable
places for karakul breeding, for nothing but that;and the topographÿ,
as faras that is concerned, of these karakul breeding areof,course that
is semi-desert or sometimes even desert.
Mr. GROSS D:o the Damaras breed karakul?
Mr. DAHLMAN N :ey normally breed small stock, but of course they
should not remain at this stage of development,and they arealso herds-
men on farms with karakul, and that also applies to the Namas. The
Damaras living inthe southern part, let us Say south of Rehoboth, where
the karakul breeding area begins, and also those who are living in the
Welwitschia area and in the vicinity of Okombahe and w on, are of
course familiar with karakul breeding because that is their daily jobto
look after the karakuls in that area, although they are not the employers
there.
Mr. G~oss: I would like to draw your attention to the Odendaal
Commission report on page 31 under the heading of"The Damara", and
with specificreference to paragraph 113:
" With tlie arriva1 of the Whites, resulting in increased persona1
safety and greater development, the Damara were able to evolve a
totally newway of life. Large nurnbers were absorbeinthe economy
of the southern part of the country and displayed exceptional
aptitude as employees."
1 cal1 your attention particularly tothe following sentence, Mr.Dahl-
mann :
"In the home area of Okombahe the established community has
concentrated rnainly on animal husbandry, while in recent times WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
537
considerable numbers have found a good Iisrelihood atthe Uis mine
situated in their own home area."
Pausing there, inyour testimony with respect to the proposed homeland
being an extremely good agricultural area in the light of the rainfall
figures and so forth givenby Professor Wellington, wns your testimony
directed atthe prospect of Damaras continuing concentration on animal
husband~y, or changing their form of agriculture?
Mr.DAIILMANINt: hink in the lightofthe futu~e development of the
whole country they should change their attitude, and they should be
more productive.
Mr. GROSS: In respect of your comment concerning the change of
attitude which they çhould indulge in or aspire to, may1 refer to table
XIX on page 41 of the Odendaal Commission report and cal1 to your
attention the fact that, on the second line of the table, there a18,499
Damaras in the urban areas ofthe southern sector. Do you findthat?
&Ir. DAIILMANN Y es.
Rlr. GROSS : With respect to those approxim:~tely 18,500Damaras in
the urban areas, is it part of the contemplated change of attitude on
their part that they willgo, or bepersuaded to go, to the homelands to
take up karakul breeding or other pastoral pursuits?
Mr. DAZILMANT N:at is not necessary-thert:is a town in the future
Damaralaiid, WeIwitçchia, and also theUis tin mine, so that al1of them
have to become karakul farmers is not what 1said, for they have other
possibilities within their future Damaraland-they can be garage owners,
there are shops-the iacilities are already there.
Mr. GRC~S yS:s. And it is contemplated froni the standpoint of your
politicalaiialysisisit, that these r8,joo or a sulistantial portion of thern
will beapproached and persuaded in due course to take up their residence
in the proposed homeland? 1s that, as you understand it, the political
prospect?
Alr.D~HL~~ASA NS:far as1see the future, 1see it in a difierent light.
1 see it like this: in each community are progressive and aggressive
elements who are interested in development, and 1 am sure that applies
aIso to the Damara people, and 1 think fifew of these progressive ele-
ments will go aiid will occupy these places, thxt means farrns and the
hotel, garages and ço on, and they will run them; and the other, less
progressivt: elements, some of them will work with them, with the famiIy
or othcr families known to them, and so in the Long run I think quite a
number of people willbe attractedif the fiisnewcorners to Damaraland
are doing rveI11 think that is the procedureI can envisage.
Mr. GROSS : Titrespect to what a previous wititnesshas referred to
as a "vision", how would you characterize the end result envisaged in
termç of what has been rcferredto as "political independence" when the
vision is accomplished? What isthe nature of the political independeilce
which is envisaged for thesehomeiands?
Mr. DAHLMANN 1 :am unablc to say that-tliat is in thefar future.
There is already a sort of self-government, al1 these different tribes or
nations have their own political systerns, and it is eiivisagcd that this
system shoulcl follow more and more the pattern of democracy.
hfr. GROSS :ow, Sir,there has been testimony with respect to federa-
tion orconimonwealth relationshipç which may be envisaged in the un-
specified future time after thesehomelands havebecn eçtablished and
requisite numbers have been persuaded to go tliere. Now, with respect538 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
to the political analysis, both in terms of your understanding of the
Odendaal Commission report and of your own expert observations and
analysis, what would you envisage with respect to a federation or a
commonwealth or sornc other relationship among these independent
homelaiids in the words of the Odendaal Commission report at page
IO??
Mr. DAHLMANN M:any solutions are possible and1would not say what
the best one will be at a later stage in the future. That will depend on
the people themselves. To my mind, nothing can prevent them from
fonning a comrnonwealth, federation or even one united South West
Africa but at the present time, we are, I think, eveii far away from
federation because, may 1 go back into history-four to five years ago,
itwas impossible to bringthe eight Ovambo chief and headmen together.
They were not prepared to cross the border of thcir respective tribes and
they have been persuaded by the Government, mainly by the Chief Bantu
Commissioner, to corne together and to discuss and, ifpossible, to solve
common problems. Itis not possible at the moment to bring the Chiefs
of Ovamboland together with the Chiefs of the neighbouring Okavango
and the same applies to the Chiefs ofthe Kaokoveld. So 1 think it is
envisaged that these parts, Ovamboland for exarnple, also Okavango and
Kaokoveld, bcing developed at a later stage aiid the people living in
these parts are free to say: right, nowwe wilI have a federation or now
we will have one unit.
Mr. Gnoss:, Sir, would you agree that the question of what they wiil
be allowed 01 encouraged to do, whichever you prefer, is a factor in
respect of their political aspirations, thpolitical activities, thepoli-
tical attitudes. Do you agree, Sir, that this is an important factor in
respect of their political attitudes anactions?
Mr. DAHLMANN W:ot at the moment. Their political activity centres
around their chiefs and headmen and around their own political tribal
organization. 1do not mean the political parties, Imean the group, the
interest of the mernbers of the different groups centred aiound their
chiefs and headmen.
Rlr.GROSS men you Say, Sii-"at the momentw-would you as a
political analyst and expertproject that moment interms of predictable,
foreseeable history? 1s the change you envisage possible in one hundred
years or lesser time from the point of view of your political analysis?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President,1 think it is very difficult to give any
figure hereon haw much time it >vil1take tcorne to a fedeiationor one
unit but 1 would Say the sooner the bettei. One cannot do it without
developing these different cornmunities and they really want to be
developed on their traditional pattern and that also applies to the
Hereros. They do not want to mixwith the Ovambos and they are afraid
to a certain estent of Ovambo domination and the Ovarnbos are also
afraid of Herero domination because in the system which the Herero
envisage, they thernselves are living in the cent~al part of theTemitory
which is highly developed and the other parts are much less developed.
One example that I have mentioned already is that if Hosea Kutako
sends a letter to Mr. Kama, then he signs "Leader of the Herero Nation".
So they regard themselves as sepalate entities, as separate nations, with
national loyalty and national pride.
Mr. GROSS:With respect to the question 1 asked in terms of the
ultimate objective of federation, commonwealth or otherwise, are you WlTNESSES AND EXPERTS 539
familiar, Sir, with the officially announced policy of the Mandatory with
regard to the objective in question?
Afr.DAHLMAN N: which . .?
Mr. GROSS :re you familiar with the announced policÿ of the Covern-
ment of the Republic of South Africa with respect to the objectof a
federation, commonwealth or otherwise, which is contemplated for the
homelands?
Mr.DAHL~~AK CN:n you indicate where it is announced?
Mr.GROSS :Tell1 take it that your answer is that you are not aware
off-hand atleast of any official pronouncements oii the subject, Sir.
Mr. DAHLMANN T:ere are several pronouncements on this subject.
One, for example, that these homelands are free to fafederation, and
I think the Odendaal plan says that the Hereros might be willing to form
a federation, if al1 the people agree, with the Hereros outside South
West Africa in Bechuanaland. 1 think that is in the Odendaal report.
proceedings in theHouse of Assembly with respect to the debate on thethe
Odendaal plan White Paper?
Mr. DAHLMANN Th:at is correct.
Mr. GROSS :re you aware of the statement by Prime hlinister Ver-
woerd specjfically on this rnatter of the objinwhich, inthe Nansard
already cited at Columns5460 and 5461 the 1'1-i~Meinister, referring in
the context to proposals made bythe opposition leadership for federation
as an objective, had this to Say, Sir?
"And then the federation joke has tbe carriedfurther because
that federation has to become part of aiiother federation, that of the
Republic of South Africa."
And then he goes on to Say, after characterizing the fedcration proposal
as a "joke":
"Ifthere is anything which can be disastrous for South IVest
Africa and for the prosperity of the Blacks as weas the Whites
and foi.the possibility of developing the whole of South M'estAfrica,
aswellas for White rule in its part of South West Africa, it is this
little joke orxperiment of the Leader of tlie Opposition which he
wants to carry out as an alternative course for South West Africa."
Were you present when this speech by the Prime Ministewas made?
hlr.DAHLIVIAN YXs,Mr. Preident. I can oniy say that has nothing
to do with the question that Ive are discussing at present. The Prime
Minister referred ta cornpletely different federation, he refto the
federation envisaged by the leader of the opposition based on the Basson
plan. The BassonpIan was completely diffcrent. You said in the question,
the plan of the leader of the opposition, Sir de Villiers Graaff. Th.s plan
envisaged the division of South West Africa; the northern part should
be given away and should become Ovamboland and the southern part
should be one unit.1 am not quite sure whether it was on a qualified
franchise or oneman, one vote. 1 think the Coloureds should be in-
corporated in the electorate and that was the way to have a combined
W~ite-Coloiired majority within thc southern sector of South West
Africa.1 think Mr. Basson mentioned a few figures and came to the con-
clusion that if the Whites, the Coloureds the Basters came together,
they can foi-mthe majority and they can out-rulc African majority rule.54 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
1 am not quite familiar with this anymore as 1 did not think it would
corne up,but 1know that this federation, which the opposition envisaged,
was complctely diffeient from the federation idea 1 was referring to.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, would it refresh your recollection as to the actual
context of the Prime Ministcr's remarks to quote to you the foliowing
excerpt from his statement which is quoted in the Rejoinder as well, V,
page 272:
"Further, Ive have adopted the standpoint that there must be
econornic CO-operation, but in addition we rnake provision in our
policy for the possibility of poLitical CO-operation. However, we do
not seek this by means of a federation in which there will be a domi-
nant groupand in which a majority group will rule a minority group.
Our principle is that in the highest body there should be a con-
sultative body, that for political CO-operatioriwith one anotherthere
must be consultntion in regard to cornmon interests on an equal
footing, as ina commonwealth."
Do you recall, Sir,this statement by the Prime Minister as to his defini-
tion of the future goal and objective of the homelands to be installed?
hlr.DAHLMANX Y:es.
Mr. G~oss: And does this have any relationship whatever with any
specific type of plan of federation, or does it, as it appears from the
words, refer to the course toward a consultative cornrnonwealth-type
relationship as distinguished from a federation-type?
Mr. DAHLMANN I:think Iwas actualljr asked how I myself envjsaged
the future of thesc territories or their CO-operation, and I think 1 also
mentioned that at the present time there is not much room for a federa-
tion, but at alater stage there might be. At present 1 thnk 1 agree with
thestatement of the Prime Minister that it is even difficult for the differ-
ent groups to form a federation, so there is no reaçon to envisage this
federation at present, but why shouldwe not become one unit, if al1these
comrnunities are prepared to do this and do not follow their present lines
~vherethey are suspicious of each other?
hlr.G~oss: Sir, for the recordI believe the record will show that rny
question was not a request for your view, which no doubt the Court is
glad to have, but itwas whether you are farniliar with the Government
policy on that subject. !
Now, with respect tothe political independence, which is the term used
inthe Odendaal Commission report, would you be prepared, for example,
as a political analyst or expert, to venture an opinion or an estirnate
concerning an approximate time, let us say in a period of decades ifyou
will, in which, let us Say, the independent state of TswanaIand-popula-
tion2,632, none of whorn now live in the proposed Tswanaland+nteis
the commonwealth alongside, let us Say, Kaokoveld-proposed popula-
tion, g,ooo? As a political analyst, looking toward the accomplishment
ofthe objective of the homeland proposal, do you envisage any period of
time, decades or centuries or whatever you will, in which Tswandand,
as one of the proposed hornelands, Maokoveld as another, will be in-
dependent political members of a commonwealth of South West Africa?
Do you envisage a tirnefor the accomplishment of that vision?
Mr. DAHLMANN In:this question 1 cannot put the extremes together.
Twsanaland and the Kaokoveld are faraway. The Odendaal Commission
actually planned that the different groups, or nations, should have WITXESÇES APID EXPERTS 54I
cornmon borders, especially as far as Hereroland is concerned. Herero-
land should have a common border with the Okavango and Damaraland
will have a border with the Kaokoveldand it does not apply to Kamaland
nor to the Rehoboth Gebiet.
But let us give them the opportunity to corne together. One should not
think that it is a commonwealth like the British Commonwealth at
present, that is not the question. The main thing is that one discusses
common problems together and that was not possible s few years ago
within the Ovambo nations, and it is not possible at present between the
leaders of the Ovambos and the Kaokovelders and the Okavangos and
the Caprivians. We have to follow this pattertri bring the leaders of the
different groups together.
Mr. G~oss: LVouldyou regard it as a rnatter or factor relevant to the
political activities, attitudesaspirations of the people concerned to
evaluate whether the proposaIs with regard to the homelands, as stated
by the Commission and confirmed in principle by the Government, are
seriously iritended or a hoax? Do you regard thatas a relevant question
for considerationby the perçons inthe Temtory in connection with their
political activities and attitudes?
Mr.DAHLMAK YPI:.
hlr.GROSS : he evaluation of theproposais,their seriousness-would
that be correct? A factor in the analysis of their politicai attitudes?
Mr.DAHLMAN YN:S.
Mr. G~oss: Now, with respect then to the t:dk from officia1sources
with regard to the objective oa commonwealth, an objective of political
indepcndence, let me, if 1 may, cal1 your attention for example, as a
matter of evaluating theattitudes of the political parties and personaIities
in South West Africa, to page 87 of the Odendaal Commission report,
paragraph 329,with reference to the Kaokoveld, which is said to have a
population of 9,234.
Now, paragraph 329 states the folIowing goal and vision:
"Thnt the Legislative Council [this is of Kaokoveld] gradually
take civer from the Department of Bantu Administration and
Development the legislative authority and administrative functions
which are tobe entrusted to the said Department for the time being,
as recommended in paragraph 222,that is eventually al1 lunctions,
excluding Defence. Foreign Affairs, Interna1 Security and Border
Control, Posts. Water Affairs and Power Generation, Transport
(with i.eaçonable protection of the developinent of local transport
undertakings), and that al1 legislatiobe subject to the approval
and signature of the State Piesident of the Republic of South
Africa."
As a political analyst,ould you Say that this goal, this objective, this
plan, as you calit-a political plan-isconsistent witha concept, from a
political analyst's point of view, of political independence?
Mr.DAHI,MAN Nist, 1do not caIl the Odendaal plana political plan.
Mr. GROSS : OUsaid political plan, Sir, but tlie record will show that.
Mr. DAHLMAN N :egard the Odendaal pIan as a development plan,
but of course the political side is a part of it. As far as the Kaokoveld is
concerned, I think that the present situation there is known and the
proposaIs forthe Kaokoveld, seen with our eyes, look verp limited. In
fact, theycontain great possibilities for advanct:ment and for develop-542 SOUTH WEST APRICA
ment and it would be good if the people themselves, livinin the Kaoko-
veld, would take the chances and oppurtunitiesof develvping theirarea
because the Kaokoveld is rather undeveloped.
Mr. GROSS:Do you regard, from a political point of view, political
independence, a phrase so often used in the Odendaal Commission report
and in the Prime Minister's speeches to which reference has been made,
in any real sense of the word as envisaging such matters as control over
citizenship policy,forexample, Sir?
hlr. DAHLMANN If: 1go through al1 the restrictions, 1fmay so cal1
them, 1think the Kaokovelders are not prepared to defend themselves
and. ..
Mr. Gsoss: 1 am talking about citizenship policyDo you regard the
concept of political independence as envisaging or including control by
a sovereign, politically independent, government ofits immigration and
citizenship policy?
Mr. DAHLMAX The: Odendaal plan is only the first step towards this
development to self-government and maybe indepcndcnce or maybenot ;
maybe at a later stage the different groups wiil not be interested any
more in independence as they are now and the will be in favour of a
greater unit.maybe the whole of South West A Yrica as one unit.
Mr. GROSS :s a political analyst, would you say that the objective
which, if 1 may Say, the founding fathers of the new system in South
West Africa aspire to and which they plan, largely determines the form
and structure of the system in its formation artd evolution? 1s that not,
from a political point of viexv, a vitally important part of the present,
rather than the remote undated future?
hlr. DAHLMANN Un:doubtedly. The first stcp is to establish a more
democratic system than the one in existence and 1 think, asfar as the
Government is concerned, you can see the way very clearly. In the past
you had these autocratie and despotic chiefs-some of them, not al1 of
them-and now you are coming more and more to a rather democratic
way of life. Now, the people already elect-rather, 1 would not Say the
people because the election system is quite difficult to explain-butthe
clans, or the heads of the families, elect the headmen and the councils of
the headmen which arethe local political authorities withinhese nations.
The next step is to give more people the right to take part in these
elections and tO give thern freely elected representatives within the
leadership of the different tribes or nations. This is actually the pattern
to which this development plan leads and if onc follows this democratic
pattern 1 think there are many possibilities in the future of thcoming
together within the framework of democracy. 1must crnphasize first that
these different groups, or nations, are proud of their group identity so
the first step is to creaaedemocratic system within their groups and 1
think it should be easy to corne to a comrnon understanding between
different democracies.
&Ir.G~oss: I have listened carefullyto your ansiver. I do not know
whether you have referred at al1to the question of White rule. If so,I
will not pursue it. On the assumption that you ieferred only to democracy
on one side of a colour or ethnic line1 should now like to invite your
attention to the question1 asked with respect to the importance of the
objective in terms of the method and time of evolving a political system,
that is, whether starting from Rlr. Verwoerd's reference to White rule,
mhether it is or is not correct, according to your understanding, that the \VITNESSESAXD EXPERTS 543
system envisages and predeterrnines a division of the Territory between
White and non-IVhite in each of which areas, \!'hite and non-White
. respectively, democracy, as you cal1it, be encouraged, but oniy with
respect to those of the same colour and from tçame area?
Do you iinderstand my question, or would you like me to simpland
clarify it, which 1will be glad to do?
hIr. DAHLMAN NO:.Mr. President,1 understand the question, but1
cannot follow one phrase, and that is "not between Whiteç and non-
Whites" this separation or whatever one wants to cal1 it; there is a
separation between the different existing nationwithin South West
Africa-we arctnlking about South West Africa,I think?
hfr.G~oss: Yes, Sir.
Mr. DAHLIIIAN Nhat is not actually meant between the Whites on
the one hand and the non-Whites on the other.
Mr. GROSS : hcn the Prime hfinisterifyou know, Sir, uses the ex-
pression in colum5461 in these Assembly debates, and 1quote: "White
ruleinits part of South West", what part of South Weçt is "its part", if
you know, Sir?What is meant by that expression?
Mr. DAHLMAN1 Nthink itiçthe White part of South West Africa for
which the 1-egislative Assembly has jurisdiction.
Mr. GROSS :OW,Sir, there iç a White part of South West Africa over
which the Legislative Assemblyhasjurisdiction. 1sit your understanding
tliat that White part of South West Africa includesurban areas and
the ruralareas of the southern sector outside the Reserves?
Mr.DAHI-MAN YN:s, Mr. President, that is correct.
Mr.GROSS : OW,Sir, in determining what shall be for the indefinite
future the White part, as distinguished from the presumably non-White
parts, would you Say whether the decision with rrispect to that niatter is
made with nny reprcsentation on the part of the non-White3 as a group
o' groups?
RfrDAHI~MAN YN: Umean within the ...
hlr. G~oss:1 mean for any purpose whatsoever, Sir,in setting up the
çystem which you describe asa White part and various non-White parts.
1sthe determination with respect to the establishofnthe system, and
the allocationof the parts, made by a body in wliich the non-White
group or groups have a voice or participation?
hlr.DAHLX~AN T h: iliiteshave the franchise tliat is envisa...
hZr.G~oss: 1am talking about the present tirne,
hlrDAHLMAN AN:the present time, only LVhitesare entitled to send
representatives and to take part in the electionsfor the Legislative
Assembly.
MT. G~oss: So it would follow,would it not, Sir, that the determination
of the distribution or the divisiofthe Territory into these projected
independent homelandç, White and non-White respectively, would be
made under the direction of and by control of ail all-White legislature,
which is not elected in whoIe or in part by non-White electors? 1s that
correct, Sir, is that too complicatedathought to follow?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:he thought is not complicat~:d, b1ithink it does
not refiect the right idea, beca1sdo not know of any statement that
the non-White homelands should be governed by the White Legislative
Assembly in Windhoek.
Mr. GROSSI: had attempted to request whether you understood my
question. 1sthe division of the Territory between White and non-White544 SOUTH WEST AFKICA
déterrnined by an all-White legislature, which is not elected in whole or
in partby non-Whites? Can you answer that yes orno?
Blr.DAHLMAN N:r. President,Iam sorry but I didnot understand
the. ..
Mr. GROSS :hat isa difficult question, is it, Sir? Do you understand
the question or the answer? 1s the division of the Territory between
Whites and non-Whites determined and controlled by an all-White
legislature, which is not elected in whole or in part by non-Whites? 1s
that true or false?
Mr. DAHLMAN :But there jsno division.
hlr.G~oss: There is nodivision contemplatedor in process or approved
by the Government as a target?
hlr.DAHLMAN Nes, 3Ir. President, a division is envisaged by the
Parliament of the Republic.
&Ir. GROSS: And is the Parliament of the Republic an all-White
Parliament, Sir?
hlr.DAHLMAN :It is an al1-Imite Parliament.
Air.GROS : And are any members eiected by non-iVhites, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAN NN:,Afr. President, they are not.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir with respect to the decisions made as to the
homelands, the proposed hornelands, 1 asked you before whether you,
Sir,as a political expert and analywould venture an estirnate in terms
of years, decades, or centuries, whichevcr you prefer, as to the accom-
plishment of the political independence which is envisaged accoiding to
the Odendaal Commission report?
lfrDAHLMAN Nr. President1 am unable to give any figure.
Mr.G~oss: Now, Sir, you could not even estimate it within terms of
centuries?
hlrDAHLMAN1 S:ope as soon as possible.
&IrGROSS :nd that is.. .
hlr.DAHLMAN1 S:hope that the development ofthe whole country
goes as fastas possible-that 1 can say; 1 can also state that a lot has
been done and is being done to develop South WestAfrica as whole. If
one takes into consideration the vastness of the country and thsrnall
population-a little more than half a million people-then1would Say
that South West Africa is, at least economically, one of the highest
developed countries in Africa or 1 cougo even further.
Nr.G~oss: Sir,this may be a hypothetical question, but it is seriously
intended: suppose-1 ask you as a political analyst and as an expert
for the Respondent on political activities, attitudes and developmints
the Territory arnong the non-Whites-you were asked by a non-White,
whom you were persuading, or the Government was seeking to persuade,
to move to KereroIand or Damaraland, and if in part of the persuasion
procedures back and forth that individual shouldaskyou: "When can
1 expect that the horneland will be politically independent, and if1
become a citizen of it, when can 1 exercise citizenship rightsinany
meaningful sense other than to become a fo~eigner in the White-mled
aiea?", would pu think these questions pertinento aconsideration by
an individual as to whether he should be pcrsuatomove to a proposed
homeland?
Mr. DAHLMAN N :. President,-thaquestion is, of course, of impor-
tance, but the greater issue is to offer now opportunitics for better living
to the individual. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 545
Mr. G~oss: 1 take it then, Sir, that you would not be prepared to
answer in terms of time factors? 1 think you have already indicated
that-is that not so, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAK : Ncannot do that, it depends on the people concerned.
hlr. G~oss: Now, Sir,with respect then to the irnprovement of econo-
mic opportunities, what wouid youi answer be if the individual said: 1
have lived in the urbzn area, my father before me has lived here, and 1
would like to know what my future opportunities are here, where 1reside
and work, as distinguished from this prospect in the homelands to which
you are persuading me to move. Would you, Sir, be in a position to
expiess your view as to whether it is contemplated by the Govel-nment
that his economic opportunities where he lives and woiks now, and may
wish to stay, will be improved in the sense, let us Sof,lifting or elimi-
nating restrictions on promotion, or eliminatjon of job.iestrictions or job
reservations? iVould you Say that this enters intothe possibilities as the
Governme~it foresees the plan?
MI..DAHLMAN N:r. President,1 said yesterday that the question of
job reserv;ition is practically compietely unimportant in South West
Africa, and 1 think that nobody suffers under that law; on the contrary,
I said yesterday that many jobs and opportunities are offered and wedo
not have the people qualifying fol these jobs but 1 think that the in-
habitants-the non-White inhabitants-of the White aiea have also
good opportunities foi the future-for exaniple, they can acquire know-
ledge whicli they can use in their homeland or, if they prefer, they can
use in the White area.
Mr. GROSS:Now, at the conclusion of the testimony yesterday, you
responded to a question regarding improvement of economic opportuni-
ties and so forth and you said:
"1 said yesterday that the question of job reservation is practicaily
completely unimportant in South West Africa and 1 think that
nobody suffers under that law; on the contrar1,said yesterday that
many jobs and opportunities are offered and we do not have the
people qualifying for these jobs, etc."
Unless the honourable President wishes, 1 will riot reathe rest of the
paragraph. 1think that what 1 have quoted is in reasonabie context.
Now, with regard to your testimony as to the "practically completely
unimportant" aspect of job reservations, 1 wanted to ask you more
specifically whether youi- judgrnent or testimony in this respect was
intended to apply to restrictions, let us Say, i11the mining industry?
Shall we pause there foryour answer? Would you answer yes or no?
Mr. DAHLMANN In:my answer yesterday I gave a general suruey. I
did not refer to any specific industry or to any specific part of .the
economy. 1 have come to this conclusion bccause, firstly, many lobs
have been . . .
The YRESIDENT T:at is not the question, Mr. Ilahlrnann. The question
is whether inthe general answer which you gave to Mr. Gross's questjon
yesterday you intended to include the reservation of jobs in the mining
industry?54 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
hlr. DAHLMANS G:enerdly speaking, yes, Mr. President.
Mr. GROSSD : idYOU also intend to include specificaily the reservations
in the railways and harbour administration with respect to firemen, etc.?
Mr.DAHLMAN NYes, there are certain restrictions, that 1 must admit.
On the other hand plenty of opportunitieare offered.
hlr. CROSS:TOthese jobs? When you Say "plenty of opportunities are
offered" do you mean to these jobs?
Mr.DAHLMANN D:ifferent opportunities offered.
Mr. GROSS:YOUmean to jobs of equivaIent rank?
Mr. DAHLMANN W: igherrank.
Mr. GKOSS n these industries?
hlr. DAHLMANNN :ot in these industries but in other fields of the
ecMr. G~oss: In the industrial field?
Mr. DAHLMAN NYes, in the industrial field.
Mr. G~oss: Could you give the Court an illustration?
Mr. DAHLMAWS :ne esample: in the fishing industry, in the road
building industry. 1must Say that we donot havmuch industry in South
'M'esAt fricaexcept the mining and the fishing industry, but, as I already
said yesterday, some non-Whites are boat owners, they own quite a
number of boats. They are captains, or navigators of these boats and I
think these are quite rcasonable jobs, higher jobs.
Mr. G~oss: 1 take it that we can assume that there is no iîshing
industry in the urban or rural areas of the southern sector? I suppose
that thatis obviously so; that there are no large lakes, or are there?
Mr. DAHLMANN N:O.
Mr. GROSS:NOW,with respect to industries or occupations in the
southern sector, just to clarify the question, are there any opportunities
offered tNatives to servein posjtjons rvhichthey esercjse supervisory
authority over UThites?
Rlr.DAHLMANN 1:cannot think of any at the moment, unless you Say
that a clerk who works in an office and has a book-kccper has certain
supervisory functions, but otherwise no1 cannot think of any at the
moment.
hlr.GROSS:1s that, so far as you are aware, Sir, a rnatter of Govern-
ment policy?
MT. DAHL~IAXN 1:think that in the first instance there is the rnatter of
qualification becaus...
Mr.G~oss:hlay 1ask respectfully for a response to my questionbefore
the qualifications?
The PRESIDENTS : ometimes though it is not your fault, Mr. Gros-
1 have noticed on more than one occasion-the witness, who is not
spMr.iG~oss:moIamr sorry., misunderstands the point of the question.
The PREÇIDENT:Mr. Gross will put the question to you again, Mr.
Dahlmann, listen to the question, and if you can, give a direct answer
to it. If you have to qualify it, then you must qualify it, but if you are
capable of giving a direct answer, particularly whether a certain position
is correct or not, then please ansiver briefly in accordance witthe
question and be responsive to the question. Doyou followwhat I mean?
Mr. DAHLMANX l':es, Alr. President.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, would it help if 1 rephrased the question?
The PRESIDEST \I:rouYOU mind? Yes. WITNESSES AXD EXPERTS 547
Mr. G~oss: 1s it, if you are aware, a rnatter of Government policy
that no non-\Vhite rnay occupy a position in wliich he has supervisory
authorityover Whites?
Mr.DAHLMAN :'es. 1think one can Saythat it is more or lesçGovern-
ment policy.
Mr. G~oss: Is your qualification now relevant, because 1 did not want
to cut you off from qualifying your answer if you wish to?
Mr. DAHLMANY N:ot in this particular field.
Mr. GROSS:When you testified in the verbatim record at page
458, supra, yon testified that among the 1)asic facts and forces
relevant tci(1 am paraphrasing) political attitudes, activities and
antagonisrns-those were the words you used-and then on page 459,
you said that one of these factors, as 1 understood you, is economic
latter, economic stress, leads to political dissatisfaction with the Govern-
ment in power and economicwell-being leads to happiness or satisfaction
and so forth. That is a correct surnmarofyour tt:stirnonyisit not?
Mr. DAHI~MAN TNhat is correct, yes.
lfr. GROSS:1 should like to ask you, in connection with economic
stressand economic well-being or otherwise, is sofar as you are aware,
afact that for many years the leaders and organizations in South West
Africa have voiced stronglyexpressed grievances concerning the adverse
effects of restrictions ithe econornic fieldarising fromthe apartheid
policy? 1s that a staternent of fact, irrespective of the rnerits or dernerits
of their position?
Rfr.DAHLMAN : INmustSay 1cannot think of any specificcornplaint or
statement tothat effect.
Mr. GROSS:YOUhave, in your political studies and analysis, never
encountered any expressions, strongly voiced or otherwise, of dissatis-
faction or grievance with the economic cornqueilces of apartheid?
Mr. DAHI.MANX L:Vhen1referred to the economic well-being as an
important factor I did not think of this question. I mainly thought, as I
mentioned, that during prolonged periods of droilght the whole country
esperiences bad times and this is the dissatisfaction 1 meant in rny
evidence.
The PRESIDENT 1:think the Court understands that, hlr. Dahlmann,
but the question which was put to you is quite a different one. It does
not bear upon specifically the truth or othenvise of that statement.
&Ir.Groçs'squestion is whether you can recollect whether any political
leader, at any particular time, has exprcssed, either in strong language
or otherwise, criticismor objection to the economic conditions in the
RepublicyofeSouth Africa?a policy pursued by the Governrnent of the
Mr. DAHLMAN N:r.President, I can think of complaints about low
wages, yes. There are a few complaints and of course wages have in-
creased ...
The PRESIDENT A:nd thatis your answer to &Ir.Gross?
MT.DAHLMANN Y:es.
Mr.GROSS1 : take it then that you cannot recoiiect any statements of
grievance or objection to job restrictions or reservations?
Rlr.DAHLMANN N:O,only about the iow wages.
Mr. G~oss: Only the low wages?
Mr. DAHLMASN O:nly the low wages, that 1 can remember.548 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
blr.GROSS 1:see, Sir. You have not encountered any statements by
leaders oSWAPO or SWANU, for example,inrespect of the economic
apartheid policy?
Mr. DAHLMAN N:ey might have said something during their meet-
ings,1would not deny that. Bu1 cannot thinof any specific statemcnt
at present.
Mr.G~oss:1 do not want to taxyour recallection, S1rthink that
you are familiar with petitio1sbelieve you testified, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAN N:s.
Mr. G~oss: And in petitions that you have studiehave you seen
references to economic apartheid and objections voiccd thereto?
Mr. DAHLMAK :ANgainst the Odendaal plan in general but not actually
against job reservation, or sornething like that.
blr.GROSS1 said, Sir, the consequences of econornic apartheid, of the
different treatrnenmeted out to non-Whites as distinguished fram
\mites.
Mr. DAHLMAK N: ,Mr. President.
Mr. CROSS Y:ou do not recall any such statement, Sir?
hlrDAHLMAN N: .
Alr. G~os: Now, in your interviews with politileaders,that you
have referred to in your testimony, havyou derived the impression
that they are satisfied with, they are content with, the discriminations
in the field of job employment?
The PRESIDENT Does this refer to political leaders or non-mites
generally ?
&IrG~oss: 1am referring to the political leaders, with1believe
the witness testified he had consultations.
The FRESTDEN T s.
hIrDAHLMAN TN:e leaders of the political parties reject the Govern-
ment policy asa whole.
Mr. CROSS Including ecoiiomic apartheid?
Mr.DAHLMAN ln:luding everything, even includias1have stated
aiready, economic development plans.
Mr.CROSS Including economic apartheidSir?
Mr.DAHLMAN : Nsaid including economic development plans.
Mr.GROSS1 : know you did, SirbutI Say, do these comments inchde
economic apartheid as well as economic developrrient, to which you refer?
Mr.DAHLMAN N:s, Mr. President; everything.
Mr.G~oss: Now, Sir, with regard to the appraisal of the economic
stress or economic well-being in respect of the Natives in the econo-mic
field, are you familiar with any reports or conclusions of United Nations
Agencies or bodies with respect to that matter?
Mr.DAHLMAN :Not at the moment.
Mr. G~oss: Have you engaged in anp study or analysis of United
Nations resolutions or reports of committees concerned with South West
Africa?
hlrDAHLMAX :res, hlr. President.
blr.G~oss: And in any ofthose reports or conclusioyou Say that
you do not recatl having encountered any analysis,or findings,or
conclusions with respect to the econornic apartheid consequences?
Mr. DAHLMAN N:ellthereare definjtely conclusions.
Mr.GROSS A:nd are they favourable or unfavourabIe, Sir?
MT.DAHLMAN Nnfavourable. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 549
Mr. GROSS:And, Sir, for example, would the following be what you
would regard from your study as a, shall we Say, typical example, this
document heing in the record :GeneralAssembZyOficial Records,Sixteenth
Session, Supplement I~A, docunient A/4926, wliich is the Report ofthe
CommitteeonSouth West Afvica Concerning the IrnplementationO/ General
Assembly Resobtiows 1568 (XV) and 1596(XV), and 1 refer to two
relatively hrief paragraphs from pages 20 and Zr of thereport.
Paragraph Ij4 states:
"South Africa is the only State in the world today to practise
racialism as an official policy, not only within its boundaries but
throughout the Mandated Territory of South West Africa. This
form of racial segregation and discrimination known as apartheid
has been repeatedly condemned by the United Nations, by world
public opinion and by al1those who appeared before the Committee
during its'visit to Africa."
And then specifically, in this context, an1 have read this to give the
context, paragraph 155 (b) :
"In the economic life of the country, the Native peoples have no
share inthe profits of trade, commerce and industry, or inthe utili-
zation or exploitation of their agricultural, fishing or rich minera1
resources, their only role being asa cheap source of labour for the
benefit of the W'hites, with no right to own land, which has been
alienated to the extent that only26 per cent. of the total land area
of theTerritory has been reserved for the Non-European rnajority.
Neither have the Natives the right to practise the professions or to
engage in general trade, commerce and industry, nor even the right
to organize themselves into trade unions to protect the legitimate
rightsof labour. "
Now, Sir, if 1rnay, with the President's pi:rmission, cal1 to your
attention, in that paragraph 1 have just read, certain specific statements
under the heading "Conclusions of the Committee", and ask,Sir, whether
it is correci., othe basis of your knowledge and information, that the
Natives, the non-Whites are denied-1 willreferto the language here-
"the right to organize themselves into trade unions to protect the
legitimate siglits of labour". Now, Sir, specifically with respect to that,
are you farniliar with the registration limitations with regard to non-
White unions?
Mr. DAHI-MAN RNl. President,I am not an expert in this fieldAs far
as 1 know they are allowed to form trade unions. No provision has been
made for the registration of these trade unions.
Mr. GROSS:NOW,Sir, when you Say that no provision has been made
for registration,1 take it that you mean, do you not, that non-White
trade unions, if formed, may not be registeredunder the prevailing laws?
Is that correct, Sir, so far as you know?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:hat might be correct, Mt. President; 1 am not
completely familiar with this field.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, with respect to the reference to the right of
Natives to practise the professions, it has been tt:stimony that there are
indeed persons engaged in professions in the Native Reserves or in Native
townships: is that correct?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:es.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, arethere any non-Whites engaged in professions550 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
in the so-called IVhite areas outside the Native Reserves, or outside the
Native townships or locations?
hlrDAHLMANN Y:es, hlr. Presjdent.
Mr. GROSSC :ould you give an illustration, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMANN 1:did not quite follow the question. FVhichkind of
jobs?
Mr. GKOSS1 : said professions, Sir.
hTr.DAHLMA N :Professions?
Mr.GROSSY : es, Sir. Do you have a doubt aç tothe meaning in English
of the word "profession", because 1would be glad to clarify that.
hlr. DAHLMANN T:hey are working, as 1 said already, asclerks, as
operators of machinery, as captains,as boat owners, as navigators.
The PRESIDENT D:O you cal1those professions?
Alr.GROSS:Shall 1be more specific, Mr. President, to aid the witness
and to save the Court's time?
The PRE~IDENT 1:think you had better, yes.
hfr. GROSS:Let us take, for example, without meaning to be exclusive,
Iawyers, doctors, teachers, doctors of divinity, or rninisters of the
Gospel-let us stop there. Are there any non-White persons, within
those categories of professions, who practise their profession or caIling
in hlr. DAHLMAKNatN:O.locations, or the Native Reserves or home areas?
Mr. GROSS :ow, Sir, 1 believe that the testimony whiyou gave in
the verbatim record at page 473,SU~YU, in which you referred to "vig-
orous attempts have been made to create unity between the different
anti-government organizations": and on page 458, if 1 may-1 am
anxious to get the context here-that:
". .without keeping in mind certain bah factç and forces it is
practically impossible to understand the attitude, activities and
antagonism which manifest themselves in the political sphere in
South West Africa".
1 pause there; that is on page 458, do you findthat, Sir?
Now, with respect to the attempts to create unity between the differ-
ent, what you describe as "anti-government organizations", and the
basic facts and forces which are necessary to understand the attitudes,
activities anso forth ~vhichmanifest thernselveinthe political sphere,
would you Say,Sir, that the Odendaal plan recommendations, with
respect to the political structure of the projected homelands, wouad be
fact relevant to an understanding of the attitude, activities, antagonism.
1 refer to the political aspeofthe plan, particularly the organization
contemplated for the new homelandç? Would you accept that as a major
fact in connection with the political activities and attitudes of the
people in South West Africa?
MI.DAHLMANM N:r. President, the proposals of the Odendaai plan
and therefore the Odendaal Commission came to the conclusion that atpicion,
the present stage it might be better to develop the different nations, or
cornrnunities, or groups, within their own field-is supposed to bea
group or a nation development. And that rniglit lead, at a later stage, to
better understanding between the political units, and also between the
different political organizations.
Mr. GROSS:And, Sir, this project, 1 bdieve yoii have testified, is \.VITSESSESAND EXPERTS 551
determined by the Government in which the non-Whites themselves are
not represented? 1believc you have testified to that; thisundisputed
in therecord, is it not, Sir?
Mr. DAHLXANN hf:rPresident,1 have testified that the non-Whites
are not represented in the Parliament of the Republic, but that does not
rnean that they have iiot been consuIted. The procedurewas as foliows.
The Government appointed this Commission of Inquiry; it was the duty
of the Commission of Inquiry to approach al1the different groups and
al1 people who wanted to give evidence befoie the Commission were
invited, so that applied to the different political organizations and also
to the political leaders.hen the Commission produced a report, and
this report went,of course, to the Government, and that was the basis
for the Government decision and was tabled in Parliament.
hlr.G~oss: As a political analyst and observer, Sir, do you consider
that consultation is equivalent to participation in the decision-making
process, direct participation?
Mr. DAHLMAN Nnder the present circumstances 1think there is not
much other choice.
Mr. GRCISS The present circumstances being what-would you clarify
that, if you don't mind?
hIr. DAHLMANN T:he present circumstances are as1 explained, The
individual is nornuch interested in politics at all, and the groups centre
round their headmen and chiefs; that is the main thing to my rnind, that
the national authorit ies are consulted, because tharethe representa-
tives of their respective peopOf,course they consult their omn people;
they have their meetings, and they discusç certain things with the heads
of the families and with the Advisory Board rnembers, and so on; but 1
think under the present conditions it is the proper way, at Ieast frrst, to
consult the local political authorities.
Rlr. CROSS:Would you Say that the local political authorities, for
example, are sufficiently intereçted or mature enough to be consu!ted
but not quite enough to be allowed to participatethe decision-making?
hIr.DAHLMANN 1 am definitely of the opinionthatthey are mature
enough to be consulted, and 1have said already that they rnight alçbe
mature enough to take a decision; actually, they have taken decisions,
especiaLlyas far as the Odendaal plan is concerned-many of them have
taken decisions. Theother question iI,presume, a question oa qualified
franchise, and1 think 1have explained . . .
Mr. GROSS1: did not ask about a qualified franchise-iyou wish to
speak about a qualified franchise . ..
Mr. DAHLMANN No.
Mr. G~oss: 1 have not asked about a qualified franchise. May 1
continue,14r.President? Idon't want to cut the witness off. The question
which 1 should like to ask you, however, is whetthe reasons which you
assign for not permi tting (ifthascorrect paraphrase of your testimony)
non-Whites to participate in the decision-making process as distinguished
from the consultation process pertain tdl non-\hites in theTemtory;
whether the reason which you assign for distinguishing between limitation
to consultation as distinguished from participation in the decision-making
process applies toal1non-Whites in the Territory, every individual non-
White in the Territory?
The PRESIDEXD TO:YOU understand the question, Mr. Dahlmann?
Mr. DAHLMAN NO:, 1 am sorrp. 5j2 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. G~oss: I don't want to take too much of the Court's time with
this-let me, if1 may, rephraçe it in a different wayMy point is simply
this: you do not deny, do you, that there are non-Whites in the Territory
who would be capable and qualified to serve in governmental bodies and
participating in governmental decisions-there are such persons, are
.there not?
Rlr.DAHLMAX SYes.
Rir. GROSS: And the law and structure of the Government is such that
those persons, irrespective of individual qualifications, are not entitled
to participate-is that correct?
llr. DAHLMANNT :hat applies to the central Government and to the
Legislative Assembly, to the Administration, in Windhoek, although
there are also non-White officials within thedrniniçtration, but it does
not apply to any body within the framework of the different nations.
hlr. GROSS:It applies then, does it not, ta the legislative bodies which
make the decision, for example, with respect to the implementation or
otherwise of the OdendaaI plan, is thanot correct-that is either yes or
no, 1am either right or ~i-rong?
Mr. DAHLMAXN T:hat is correct.
blr. GROSS:iirith regard to the political recomrnendations in the
Odendaal plan itself, there has bccn tcstirnony concerning both the
objective of political independence as stated by theCommission and by
the Prime Minister and others as well as reference to the nature of the
legislativeorgans, or government organs, which are contemplated for the
homelands. This, you would concede, would ÿou not, is a factor relevant
to political attitudeand actions with regard to opposition or support
for the Odendaal plan-you would regard this as a relevant factor, would
you not?
&Ir.DAHLMANNY :es.
Mr. GROSS:Now, with respect to the proposals in the Odendaal plan,
which I think you have charactenzed as the political part othe plan, we
have in the Odendaal plan, do we not, three interrelated factors:one
relates to the legislaturor,organs of government proposed; the second
relates to citizenshipolicy; and the third relates to franchise-would
you agree thnt that is a fair statement of the major elements of the
governmental structures proposed?
Rlr. DAHL~~AN :NYes,
Mr. G~oss: I. will attempt very briefiy to get your expert opinion
whether or not this is to be interpreted asthe words seem to indicate,
let us take proposed Hereroland, for example, and you \il1 1think agree,
would you not, that the structure proposed is fundarnentally the same
for al1of the proposed homelands?
hlr. DAHLMANNB :Ioreor less the sarne.
Mr. GROSS : ore or less the same. So we take Hereroland, just asan i
example: page 97 of the Odendaal Commission report, let us turn to
paragraph 357, and 1think you will find that the contemplation is that
.al1 legislation should be subject to the approval and signature of the
State President of the Republic of South Africa-that is correct, is it
not ?
Nr. DAHLMANN :hat is conect.
Mr. GROSS:That pertains to legislation-this is of course in the future
when at sorne unspecified time these homelands come into being with
these legislatures, but dealing with thnow not as facts butasprospects WITNEÇSES AND EXPERTS
553
for political consideratioby political leaders and others; with respect
to the legislatures proposed, is it not correct that in paragrap356
on page 97-it is the provision withregard tothe structure or composition
of these organs-is, among other things, that "elected members shall
not constitute more than40 per cent. of the Legislative Counci1"-is that
a correct reading of that section?
Mr. DAHLMAN TN:at is correct.
Blr. G~oss: And is it further provided in par;tgrap358 on page 97:
"That the executive powers of the Legislative Council be vested
in an Kxecutive Committee consisting of the senior headman or his
authorized deputy and four rnembers to be elected by the Legislative
Council.. ."-
is that a correct reading?
hlr.DAHLMAKN Th:at is correct.
hlr. Gaoss: And that would mean, would it riat, that the Executive
Committee in which the executive powers would be vested would be
elected by a Legislative Counci60 per cent. of whom are composed of
non-elected members-is that correct?
Mr. DAHLMAN TN:at is perfectly correct.
Mr. GROÇS: Further, with reference to the powers projected for the
Legislative Council and the ExecutiveCornmittc:eas its delegated am,
is it not correct that paragrap364 provides that the Executive Com-
mittee ... paragraph 364,do you have that? 1 don't want to go too
quickly-do you have it beforeyou?
Mi.DAHLMAN YN:s.
Mr. G~oss:1 read the laçtclause:
". ..tliat the Executive Committee or a citizen shall nat have the
right to alienate any land tanon-citizen except with the approval
of both the Legislative Council and the State President of the
Republic of South Africa".
That is a correct reading of it, is it not?
hlr.DAHLMAN N :at is correct.
Mr. GROSS : ould YOU. as a political analyst and observer, anan
roferred here in the political field, express an opinion whether
these- P refer now to the limitations upoii the power conternplated for
the legislative organs of government-wouldbe consistent with political
independence in the normal political usage of tht: phrase?
The PRESIDENT Th:e witness hardly needs to be asked that question,
does he, Mr. Gross?The Court itself can make determinations by reading
the paragraphs themselves, without any assistanceom any witness.
Mr. GROSS:1 was anxious Iest the record indicates that the witness
might have implied or testified that this would be consistent with political
independence as the phrase is used frequently by the Prime Minister and
the Odendaal Commission report; 1will be glad to withdralv the question,
Sir.
The PRESIDEKT N:O,Mr. Gross, if you think it is going to be of assis-
tance to the Court.
hfr. G~oss: 1 would not press the point, Sir-I will withdraw the
question. With regard to citizenship, so that we can hurry this alo1g,
refer to paragraph 362 on the sarne page97,and cal1to your attention
the paragraph reference to theollowing languagi: specifica:ly554 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"That, as soon as is practicable, the Legislative Council by
legislation institute for the homeland a citizenship of its own and
that every Herero born in or outside Hereroland but within South
West Africa ... [etc., forgetting the other clause] but now per-
manently resident in Hereroland and not declared a prohibited
immigrant ... [Inow stress these words] shall be entitled to such
citizenship . . ."
1s it your understanding of this recommendation that the exercise or not
of this entitlement to citizenship is an option given to the Herero in this
case? 1sit an option which he can exercise or is it intended, so far asyou
are aware, to confer citizenship by operation of law through the Legis-
lative Council or otherwise?
Mr. DAHLMAN K :hink that is onlya confirmation.
Mr. GROSSI:t iç a confirmation? This language "shail be entitied to
such citizenship" sounds, does it not, asif it were to be an option, an
election, on the part of the Herero who, let us say, is living or was born
in the southernsector,in anp area you wish outside theproposed Herero-
land; ishe, or ishe not, if you know, under this proposal to be entitled
to refuse citizenship,isthis an option or an electionor is it, or do gou
consider that you do not know the proposal?
Rlr. DAHLMANS &:Ir.President,1 think the difficultyisestablished-
that is not a law here, that ia proposal . ..
Mr. GROS SThis is a recornmendation.
Mr. DAHLMANN A:recomrnendation and 1do not know what the future
law inthis regard might be. As faras1see itfor al1practical purposes, the
Hereros living in South IVest Africa will have the opportunity to say
"yes" or "no" to the question whether they wani ta participate-that is
the practical point-n the elections for this legislative body.
Mr. GROSS S:ir, if you do not know,1 am sure the Court would wish
you to Say so and 1will not press you further. Do you know whether it is
or it is not the intent of the recommendation, in your understanding,
that the Herero, let us Say born in Katutura township, to take a place
arbitrarily, would have the option to Say: 1 do not elect to become a
citizenof Herero land when itiçformed finall7
Mr.DAHLMANT Nh:at might be possible.
&Ir. GROSS h'ow if it is possible for him to reject the option, if that is
thesense of your testimony that it is an option, what would his citizenship
status then be, if you know?
hlr.DAHLMAX S:r. President,I cannot judge on these points. They
are far in the future and are recommendations and one cannot Say what
the final result ofhese recommendations will be.
Mr. GROSS :o that, Sir, ia person should corne to you, or having
heard that you have testified here as an expert on this subject on the
political problems or otherwise, and ask you whether or not he should
allow himself to be persuaded to go, you would not feel in a position to
advise him whether or not he would be a citizen in the, let us Say,
southern sector, if he refused citizenship in the other temtory?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:T.President, the recommendations of the Odendaal
plan are, of course, to encourage the non-Whites living in the southern
sector within the White sector to develop their homelands and to take
their citizenship of their respective homeland in order to be able to elect
their democratic organizations.
Mr. G~oss:Would it be fair to say, Sir,that in order to encourage hirn WITNESSES AXD EXPERTS 555
to do so, he is kept in the darkconcerninghis citizenship status if he does
not elect to take up citizenship in Hereroland?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President, 1 think that is a more legaI than
political aspect, although they are sometimes very close together, but it
rs very difficult to judge at the present time from the recommendations
what the future possibilities and soIutions might be.
Mr. GROSS:Sir, again as perhaps this might aIso be regarded by you
as a legal rather than a political question-thatis the question of the
civic stati~of the individual-but 1 refer to page 107, paragraph 4x3,
just to test this point out in the case of the young Hererowasosought
to be persuaded to move to Hereroland, in a hypothetical case. In
paragraph 413, YOU will note, Sir, the reference to:
"That al1citizens of the homelands, with the exception of those
who have been declared prohibited immigrants." (Odendaal Com-
mission report, p.07.)
Now Sir, .u a political analyst and observer, are you able to clanfy the
apparent contradiction between referring to a person as a citizenand the
same time asa prohibited intmigrant?
The PRESIDENTM : r. Gross, 1 wonder whether this carnes the rnatter
any further so faras the Court is concerned? If the suggestion is, and it
is a matter for you to cornnient in respect of it, that having regard to
362 and 413there is contemplated some pressure upon those who are
outside the homeland to go to the homeland, and if they do not, it will
be at the expense of being without citizenship. Well, that is a matter
surely which can be spelt out of the report itself without asking the
witness foihis view or his interpretation of it. On the question of citizen-
ship, 1 should have thought that the Court is in an even better position
than any witness that might be calledto determine what is the meaning
of the Odendaal report.
Mr. G~ciss: Weil, Sir, 1 certainly with respect fuUy agree. 1 am con-
cerned, if the Court pleases, with another aspecof the question and 1
shall not pursue the point, but, if I may, Sir, explain, without anticipating
comment unduly, that the confusion engendered with respect to the
civic status of an individuawould be, in fact, relevant to the character
of the plan itself, which is here under examination, through this witness
as a political analyst. It would seem to us, respectfully, to bear upon the
attitude, confusion or uncertaintyofan individual regarding just what
is contemplated, in determining whether this plan is or is not a hoaa or
serious proposal. This is a subject for comment, of course subsequently,
Sir,but this is the aspect whic1had intended to press. 1will only now,
Sir, refer to one more aspect of thisoposa1which is on page 97, para-
graph 363. 1 will atternpt very briefly to bring out the point: do you
intention of the proposa1in paragraph 363is that to exercisethe franchise,
eitherby way of registering or casting the ballot, the individual con-
cerned, in this case the Herero, would have to be physicaily present in
Hereroland either to register or vote or both? Do you know one way or
the other about that, Sir?
Rlr. DAHLMAK Nr:.President, paragraph 363says-"provided that
they are resident in South West Africa and registered as voters in
HereroIand".
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. Now the plirnse"may be" and 1 will not press5s6 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
you on this if you do not know, and the phrase "voters in Hereroland"
ifyou understand, Sir, does this refer to register in Hereroland as voters
or register as voters in Hereroland? Do you happen to know, Sir? The
phrase is ambiguous and 1 wondered whether you happened to know?
Mr. MUI.LEK1 :must object to asking the witness questions concerning
a legai interprctation of paragrap363.
Mr. GROSS:1 asked whether he knew, Sir, 1 did not ask him for an
interpretation.
The PRESIDENT H:OWcan he know except by interpreting unless the
members of the Commision told him sornething which throws some light
upon the words they used. JYhy then don't you ask him-if he knows
from the Commission what was intended by the particular clause, and
if he does not that concludes the matter. He cannotbe asked to inter-
pret ...
Mr.G~oss: 1 have not asked him to interpret, Sir.
The PRESIDENT W:ellyou came very close to it, hlr. Gross.
Mr. G~oss: Do you know, on the basis of any information you have
from consultationswith members of the Commission, newspaper releases,
statements by the Prime Minister or any other source, Sir, what the
intended policy is here, Sir?
Mr. DAHI-MAN NN: ,Mr. President.
hlr. G~oss: With respect to another major aspect of the Odendaal
Commission plan, I am not asking you now, Sir, for interpretation of the
plan, and ifyoiido not have knawledge from which to form an answer,
we will dispose of theatter. but in connection with the non-LiThitesin
the lhjte urban areas, this relates, doenot, sofaras ÿou know, to the
status of the non-Imiteswho elect not to go to the homelands when, and
if, they are establishedThis would be correct, would it not, Sir? This
would relate to those non-Whites who may elect not to go to the horne-
lands if and when the latter are established-that not correct?
Mr. DAHLMANN Yes,
Mr. GROSS :ow Sir, with respect to the paragraph 441, page 117,
referenceis made there and 1 will read the contextif 1may:
"The Commission is of the opinionthat the considerable expan-
sion of educational and hcalth services and the acceleratrate of
development in the homelands, as recornmended elsewhere in this
Report, will create greater opportunitiesfor ernployment in the
homelands in the Southern Sector and result in a greatmigration
to those areas."
Now, Sir, if you feitis within the realm of your espertise or competence,
would you statc whether in the event of such a "great migration" tthe
proposed homelands if, and when, they are built, therewould be a
requirement for substantial numbers of those persons for labour in the
so-called IIrhite aror White economy-have ÿou a basis foanswering
that question or giving an opinion with respect to it?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:T.President, qualified people will be needed in the
homelands and 1 think also within the White area,
Mr. Gnoss: And Sir, are you familiar, 1 am not asking for an inter-
pretation,1 am asking you whether you are familiar with what, if any-
thing, in the Odendaal Commission report, pertains to recommendations
in the field of labour? Are you familiarith anything in the Odendaal
Commision report on the question of the problem of labour in the
Territory? WITNESSES AND BSPICRTS 557
Mr. DAHLMAX NNO,not at the moment.
Rlr.G~oss: Sir,1 cal1to your attention, paragraph 1318,page 487.
Now, Sir, according to a study to which reference has been made and
which has been cited previously, the stucly by Mr. Gordon Lalvrie, the
Director of the South African Institute of IriternationaAffairs, the
article to which I have previously referred, h'ir.Laivrie comments under
the heading of "Labour" in his analysis of the Odendaal Commission
report referringto thisparagraph: "This appears to apply to industrial
workers only-what the position of farm labourers is to be or where
labour for farms is to corne from is nowhere mt:ntionedin this report."
On the basis of your study of the report, can yoii state, Sir, whether that
is a correct statement or do you not k~iow, Sir, this being a lengthy
report? Do you know, Sir, whether this ia correct statement?
Mr. D-WLMANNT :he report is very lengthjl, aslrousaid, and the
question of labour is mentioned.
Mr. GROSS O:f farmlabour? Yes, Sir, ~vell.the answer to my question
is that you do not have a basis of knowledge whether thisiç or iç not a
correct statement.
Mr.UAHLMANN KO:,1am not familiar with al1the details.
Jlr.GROSS: NOW, &Ir. Lawrie also says, on page 115 of the same
work ,..
Mr, MULLER 1:object, here, to questions of this nature. Other people
have beencalled to testify as experton matters of economics in South
West Africa. Now, a witnesç, who has been called in as an expert in an
entirely different field, is being askea question in regard to labour.
I'assages are read from documents criticiziilg the report which have not
been put to the witnesç before to study at all.
The PRESIDENT 1 appreciate that, Mr. Muller, but the Court is not
desirous of putting limitation upon cross-examination. The witness an
expert in political mattersHe ha his attention drawn to Article 1518
of the report; he has not time to read it; çomebody else ha.view that
it seems to result in a certain thin1 donot know ho-? the witness can
give evidence ~vhichis of any great assistance to the Court, but 1 do not
think the Court will interfere with the cross-examination that Mr. Gross
is directing.
hIr. CROSS T:hank you, Sir. If 1 may, hlr. President, withrespect,
point out that in the Applicants' respectful çubmission, there is no
passible line which canbedrawn, from a realistic point of viebetween
political activities, political organization, polattitudes, as to which
this witness has testified on direct, and expressed opinions, within the
economic field. The proposed policies, or lack thereof, with respect to
labour. with which these individuals will...
T~~PRESIDENT: Nobody has suggestetl tliat, Mr. Gross, one must
consider the objection in relation to the questioris you are puttTt is
a different matter altogether.
Mr. GROSS: 1 misunderstood Mr. hluller and 1 apologize iIdid, Sir,
I thought he sought to draw a distinction between politicç and the labour
of thejeople. -
The PRESIVEXT :ot at all, politics cover al1 fields of activity of a
State.
Mr. GROSS N:ow, Sir, 1 woüId like to conclude with the one furtlier
reference, which1 was on the point of making, to ask you, on the basis
of thestudy you have made of the Odendaal Commission report, which55s SOUTH WEST AFRICA
you have teçtified you have studied, whethcr you know, Sir, whether it
1scorrect or not,as Mr. Lawrie çays:
paragraphst(1518)thnear the end of the Report, which reads asngle
follows:".
1 simply am asking you, Sir, whether, on the basis of yourstudy ofthe
Odendaal Commissionreport, you know, or do not know, whether labour
questions are dealt with in any other paragraph of the report. Do you
know, Sir, or do you not, offhand?
Mr. DAHLMAN1Nc:annot give you any specific paagraph, but if one
thinks of al1these developments, projects, within the territory, within
the non-\hite territory as well as in the U'hite part, then the question of
labour is included.
Mr. GROSSS :ir, I would now like to refer, once more, to the recom-
mendations-the proposed plan-with regard to the non-W1iite in the
IVhite urban areas, which is the heading of the planof this section, on
page 115. At page 63, in paragraph 23r, reference is made, if you will
turn to that page, Sir, to the following:
"That the control and administration of the White population
and their area, as wellas the non-White groups in the area concerned,
be entruçted in respect of al1 the rernaining functions to an Ad-
ministrator, to be appointed by the State President ... and an
executive cornmittee offour members to beelected by the Legislative
Assembly."
On the basis ofyour study ofthe plan, on the basis ofany sources which
may be available to you, Sir, do you understand this provision to mean
that in the urban areas, such non-\mite groups or individuals as elect
not to go to a homeland, if and when created, will be under the control
and administration of a body appointed bpthe State President? Do you
understand that to be the intention?
Mr.DAHLMAX :Nnly the Administrator isappointed, asfar as 1seeit,
by the State President and, asfaras I understand it correctly, the four
members to be elected by the Legislative Assembly.
hlr.GROSSY : es, Sir. Now, the next paragraph, paragraph 232. irn-
rnediately follow-ing,recommends:
"That the Legislative Assembly of eighteen members elected by
the registered White voters be retained and exercise legislative
powers ..."
Now, Sir, is it your understanding, on the basis of any information
available to ou, that the recommendation then cornes down to this:
thatwith respect to the non-\mites in the urban areas who elect not to
goto a homeland, if and when eçtablished, but to remain where they Iive
and work . . .
The PUESIDENTW : itness, have you any information, other than the
texMr. DAHLMANNwo pN:othing but the text of these paragraphs.
The PRESIDENTI:t surely must be a matter for the Court, Mr. Gross,
as to what the paragraphs mean?
Mr. GROSSY :es, Sir1 would like to askyou, Siras an expert, whether
you do, or do not, regard thiç entire plan as a plan to partition or divide WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 559
the Territory on the basis of an ethnic or colour line? Would you have
an opinion with respect to that, Sir, as a politica.1expert?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. President, it is difficult to say what the future
brings. At present, this plan is designed to develop underdcveloped, or
even undeveloped, areas of South West Afrii:a and to develop the
different communities. That can lead, as 1 explained yesterday, toa
commonwealth, or to a federation, or to a unit, or even to integration.
What the future might be, nobody can Say at the moment.
Mr.GROSS :ou are aware, are you not, Sir, that there are, according
to the Odendaal Commission report and undisputed fact1 believe, some
12,700persons classified as "Colouredinthe Territory?
Mr.DAHLMANN Y es.
Mr. GROSS: 1s it proposed, Sir, or recommended, by the Odendaal
Commission or anyone else, ifyou know, that there will be a homeland,
so-called, for the Coloureds?
Mr.DAHLMAN N :t actually a homeland,asettlement.
Mr.G~oss: 1sit proposed, Sir, that the CoIoureds shall be perstoded
move to three locations, or townships, which will be established in
accordance with the Odendaal plan? Do you know whether that is
correct, Sir, and1refer, so.that your recollection will be refreshed, to
paragraph 420, at page rog.
Mr.DAHLMANN Y es, 1 mentioned this settlement.
Mr.G~oss: Now, Sir,in paragraph 420:
"That in due course the Coloureds be settlin the three above-
mentioned towns in properly planned and proclaimed Coloured
Townships where they shall enjoy the right to own property."
Do you know, Sir, whether or not the Colouredasthey are classified,
enjoy the right to own property where theyresitle now?
Mr. DAHLMANX Y es, they are entitled to own property.
Mr.GROSS T:hen, of courseI takeit you have no basis fan opinion
or otherwise as to the reason for this reference to "where they shall enjoy
the right to own property";1take it that you do not have any basis for
an appreciationof the significance of that sentence.
Mr. DAHLMANN M:ay1 add, just for clarification, that they areentitled
to own property already, and not only in that proclaimedea.
Mr. GROS SWith respect to the Coloureds, would you Say, Sir, as a
political expert and analyst, that they do indeed represent a very special
case, a vqy special type oproblem, in the Territory because of fact
that they do ~iotfit into the so-calIed homelands planthat a correct
appreciation from the point of view of politicallysis?
Mr. DAHLMAN Khey do not fit in, that is perfectly correc1,cand
only say thatthe Colouredsor the majority of the Coloureds are support-
ing this plan and the Government policy.
Mr. GROSS: DO they have a vote,Sir,in the State Legislature or in.any
organ of Government to express their preferences?
Mr. DAHI~MANN NO:,MT. President, at present they have the Coloured
Council which is supposed to become an elected Council, and 1stheir
representation.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, is it not correct to say that the propo..1.1s
understand, Sir, by the way, that your answeto my question was that
the Coloureds do not have the franchise in the central organs of Govern-
ment, including the Legislative Assembly. That was the answer to my
question?560 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. DAHLMAN :KThat is correct.
Mr. GROSS:Now, Sir, with respect to the Coloureds as, shall we call
them, a "special problem",itisstated in paragraph452, at page119:
"That, where Coloureds, Basters and Nama who are the respon-
sibility of the Departmenof Coloured Affairs are resident in urban
, areas, the said Department should persuade them in their own
interests, and tonable them to have a say in their own affairs, to
move to their respectivurban residential area..."
Would you have aiiy basjs on anything which is known to you, or
which is reflectedin your studies or consultationsor otherwise on the
subject, as to whether the expression "persuade them" and "to enable
them to have aSay in their own affair.. ."
The PRESIDENT :ou are asking the same type of question again,
Mr. Gross. Has the witness any knowledge outside the text of the
document in front of him?
Mr. GROSS :Do you have any knowledge of anything in theOdendaaI
Commission report on the basis of anything outside the text of the
document, Mr. Dahlmann?
Mr.DAHLMAN1 Ncan only say that the attitudin the past was that
the Coloureds, regardless of where they were living, should have a sayor
be entitled to elect the Coloured Council; that is1 can say.
Mr.GROSS:So you do not know, Sir, whether, in any sensof the word,
the Coloureds have a say in their own affairs when they Iive in the urban
areas outsideoftownships; you do not know, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAN NNO.
Mr.G~oss: Is there any basis, other than raceor colour, for the planned
segregation into townshipsto be proclaimed?
Mr. DAHLMANN M:r. Yresident, in the past this problem never arose
because the Coloureds are livinalover the country and, as 1understood
the policy, they were supposed to eiect their council wherever they live.
Mr. G~oss: That is the answer to my question,Sir?
1sthere any basis other than race or colour which50 far as you are
aware as a political analpst, accountsfor the plan to segregate the
Coioureds into the townships tobe proclaimed?
Mr. DAHLMANN :r. President, there are,of course, always these
problems on this question of community development, andthe Coloureds
and the Basters are actually, and especially the Basters, proud of their
own identity and regard themseIves as a group, and want to develop
their group to promote theirwell-being withintheir group, education,
and qualification, ando on.
Mr. G~oss: 1will not press the same question again, perhaps you have
answered itin the best way you know how; but, with respect to the
Coloureds, is it true, Sir, that the Colouredas the Odendaal Com-
mission report states, in paragra121, page 33:
"... have a strong Caucasian strain and for the mopart maintain
a Western culture and way of life. Their language is chieflAfri-
kaans."
From your own knowledge of the Territory, is thatcorrect descrip-
tion?
Rir.DAHLMAX :Shat is correct.
Mr. GROSSD : o theywork in urban areas outsidof toivnsl~ips reserved
for them alone? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 561
Nr.DAIILMAN Nhey do.
hlr.G~ciss: And is it projected that they will continue to do ifand
when the>- are persuadecl to move to segregated townships?
Mr. DAHLMAN : t will be possibk that they remaiin theareas where
they live.
AIrGROS SAnd,Sir, if they remain in the areas where they liveam
not certain that we understand each other at all-my question was: is it
conternplated, if you know, that Coloureds, so-called, who majr live in
townships tobe reserved or proclaimed for thein, will, as heretofobe,
working in the urban areas outsideof their proclaimed township?
1sthat contemplated, so far as you areaware,Sir? Would you contem-
plate that, asa political analyst?
Mr. DAIIL~~AN N :m not aware of that.
Mr. GROSS: YOUare not aware that they wciuld work outside of the
town?
hlr.DAHLMANX O:h pes, that is possible.
hlr. GROS SThat is possible?
Rlr. DAHLMAN Nhat is possible.
hlr. GROSS N:OW,with respect to that portion of their Iives which is
spertt in and at work for the so-called White ciconomy, are they tobe
given, in the words of the report, "a say" in those affairs of their lives,
so to speak?
Mr. DAHLMANN NO, the ColouredCoiincil-that is theproposai of the
Odendaal plan.
fiIr.GROSS :he Coloured Council, if 1 am not mistaken, Sir, and
correct me if 1 am wrong, relates to affairs pertaining to the township
itself-isthat not correct, Sir?
hlr.DAHLMANI N:hink that isnot correct.
hlr.GROSS : hat isthe jurisdiction of the Coloured Council, if you
know, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMAN : Kl1Coloured affairs.
hlr. GROS: Al1Coloured affairs?
nlr.DAIILMANN Ye:s,I cannot give pou the exact limitation, but it
goes far beyond the border of administrationofdifferent townships.
Air.GROSS1: will not press you because this would entrench on legal
questions, and that is of interpretatio1;would merely refer to what 1
had previously referred to concerning the non-Whites in urban are*,
with reference to the control and administration over non-Whites who
are in those areas, and 1will not press you further on that aiçatlegal
interpretationpoiiit.
1would like, Sir, to turn to the question of pet.itions and petitioners.
The PRESIDENT 1think at this stageBir.Gross,the Court will recess,
but before Ido so, could1 ask you a question forclarification?
\'ou directed a number of questions to the witness in relation to
paragraphs 356 and 357 of the Odendaal report, that is the establishment
of alegislative council and an executive council. 1sunderstood it,and
would you check with my understanding, they were directed to the
witness on the basis that this suggested legislative council and executive
council were transitional stages and not ultimnte stin theprogramme
of the Republic ofSouth Africa.
hIr.GROSS: Mr. President, with respect, that was not my intentioor
understanding; there is, of course, i1 may say so, sornething of an
ambiguity ,according to rny underçtandiiig , of just what is transitional562 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
and wbat is ultimate in this whole affair. When questions are asked, it
frequently becomes transitional, and there are also at other times refer-
ence to ultimate objectives; so far as these sections are concerned, Sir,
according to my understanding and analysis, they stand as ultimates
in the sense that there is nothing proposed or recornrnended to succeed
them.
The PRESIDENT T:t is becaus1 wanted to be sure of that, Mr. Gross,
1 sought clarification.1draw attention to paragraph 357, which has a
reference to paragraph 222-perhaps you might give paragraph 222, at
some time, your consideration.
Mr. GROSS: Yes, Sir,1 have indeed, Sir.Thank you very rnuch.
hfr.MULLER >:Ir.President, canI ask my learned friend whether he
can give annyindication as to whether he wiil complete his cross-esami-
nation of the witness today, because 1have to make arrangements with
regard to another witness who has been waiting for two days now, and I
have indicated that he need not come until 1 Iethim know, and 1 can
then, if can have some indication, advise him to corneor not.
The PRESIDENT M:T.Gross, are you able to give any indication to the
Court when you expect to finish your cross-examination?
hlr.GROSS :ir, that would require consultation with the witness, in
al1seriousness.
The PRESIDEKTC : onsultation with the witness?
hlr. GROSS It wouldindeed, Sir, becauseI thinkthat the ansrvernrith
al1respect, depends very Iargely on the nature of the witness's answers.
The PRESIDEKT:If you cannot give the ansver, Mr. Gross, that is al1
thereis to it.
Mr. GROSS: Well, Sir, 1thought 1 owed an explanation of why 1could
not; ithad been my intention, and is, to finish today, Sir, 1nwill do
my very best, Mr. President.
The PRESIDEK The Court is entirelyin your hands in that respect,
Mr. Gross.
Mr. GROSS :just regret that 1cannot answer &Ir. 3luller's question
because it is a two-sided equationSir, as think counsel willrealise.
Mr. President, with respect to the comment made by the honour-
able President regarding paragraph 222, would it be the pleasure of
the Court, Sir, that the Applicants reserve comments until another
occasion, or would the President wish to have their comment at this
stage?
ThePRESIDENT:Since there are portions of the evidence ofthe witness,
Nr. Gross, which have been directed to specific particulars in the Oden-
daal report, that, 1 think, woulfaIlwithin theprovision which has been
made that when the oralevidence has been concluded, and the Respon-
dent has finishcd itsaddress, itwillbe open to you to comment on the
evidence, and it would be permissible to make reference tothis particular
rnatter on that occasion.
Mr. GROSS :hank you, Etlr.President. Would it be out of order, in
the Iight ofwhat the President ha just said, to briefiy state, Sir, that
the problem presented to the Applicantç, Sir, arises out of what, with
respect, Ivefind ambiguous in the report? The lines of enquiry which
the Applicants have been addressing to this witness, put forward as an
expert inthe political field, are designed, among other things, Sir, to
show that the very ambiguities and difficulties of understanding and
interpretation of this report are matters of political consequcnce in the WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 563
Temtory. That, Sir, 1 felt duty-bound to explain thatwas not asking
this witness for legal opinions or for anything outside his knowledge,
except as apolitical espert dealing tvititha report whichhae testified
that hehas studied.
The PRESIDEN1 Tappreciate that, Mr. Gross, and there is no criticism
of the way in which you have cross-examined. My only observation is
that when the Court has a ~vritten document in front of it, it is of no
assistance to ask a witness what his view is on what it means. That isalmost
elementary. It is for the Court to deterniine what is the meaning of the
document.
Mr. GROÇÇ: Sir, without rneaning to carry the colloquy on, if the
witness does testifyas an expert, but it is not within the range of his
professed or proffered expertise to deal ivith this document or the
political implications thereof,1 would, of course, have an entirely
different view with respect to my rnethod of cross-examinstion in regard
to these concededly difficult, somewhat abstruse and interrelated
provisions in this lengthy report.
The PRESIDENT They may be so and they rnay not be. That is a
question of interpretation.
Mr. G~oss:That is my contention, Sirofcoiirçe. MayI continue,Sir?
The PRESIDENT P:ease do.
iifr.GKOSS: With respect to the petitioners, 1 should like, with the
Court's permission to refer to a statement made by learned counsel,
Mr. Muller, in introducing this witness and proffering his testimony,
and 1refer, Sir, to the verbatim record 7fOctober, at page456, supra.
I am referring to Jlr. Muller's statement afsentence which 1will read,
1 beljeve, in context, in \ilhicMT. hluller evplained the purpose of
proffering this witness, among other things.
"We will then submit and argue that tca very great extent the
resoliitions aswell as the reports [tliat iof the United Nations
bodies] are based upon or largely influenced by statements made by
this bodyof political petitioners."
This was asserted by Mr. Muller by his statement to the Court, Mr.
President, and by way of explanation ofthe particular respects in which
the witness's testimony is regarded tobe relevant by the Respondent,
basically on two main aspects and then Mr. Muller went on from there.
Now, Sir,I call thito your attention,Mr. Dalilmann, and I would Iike
to ask yoii whether in respect of any of your testimony to the Coyou
have, or seek to, or sought to have the Court infer on the basis of any of
your testimony, that United Nations resolutions or reports are based
upon, or largely influenced by, statements madby this so-called body of
politicalit~lesses?
hlr.MULLER : r.Preçident, with respect1indicated that thatwould
be our argument. 1 did not say thatwe would envisage any evidence on
that aspect from the witness.
The PRESIDEN T:t you did lead certain evidence on specific matters.
>Ir.MULLER A:S to whether the contents of the petitions were true or
not,hir. F'resident.
The PRESIDENT As to whether they were true or not?
RIT. MULLER:Yes, Mr. President, not farther, as to whether the
resolutions my learned friend says were based or not based on them.
That 1did not elicit from the witness.564 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
hlr. G~oss: Sir,obviously Mr. President does not wish me to engage
in a colloquy with the counsel on this point. 1 would simply cal1 the
Court's attention, if 1 rnay, to the statement, whiis relevant referring
to testirnony to be proffered, "whewe corne to dcal later on in argument
with the so-called law-creating processes or norm-creating processes
referred toby the AppIicants, that is, resolutions and reports of orgüris
and agents in the United Nations".
Now, Sir, I am asking the question of the witness, with the Court's
perniission, ïvhether any testimony he gave he considers relevant, and
wishes the Court to infer from any ofthistestimony, in any respect that
isgermane to the question, whether or not resolutions and reports of
organs and agencies of the United Nations are based upon, or largely
influenced by, statements made by this body of political petitioners.
It is a question addressed to the witness, with the Court's permission,
so as to examine the purport and intent of his testimony in this regard.
The PRES~DENT :lr. Gross,I think that is perfectly permissible.
When a witness is called to testifyon questions of fact,or as an expert,
the range of cross-esamination is not limited by the facts to xvhich he
deposes or the expert evidence he gives in chiefSo it would be perfectly
open to you to ask that question.
MT.GROSS :ir,may 1 then ask the question if the witness underçtnnds
it. Would you like it repeated or do you understand it?
hlr.I~AHLMAN Nl:. President, many petitions have been sent to the
United Nations from South West Africa and from political leaders
outside of South West Africa, and one finds that some resolutions have
more or less the same wording as the petitions or refer to the petitions.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, were you in your studies of the United Xations
resolutions and reports of agencies, aware, or came across, Sir, the
proceedings of the Trusteeship Council in the 1947-194 p9riod with
respect to South West Africa. Are you familiarwith those, Sir?
Mr. DAHLMXNS I:am not familiar with al1the particulars, but 1 am
more or less generally aïvare of what was going on, speaking in general
terms.
&Ir.GROSSD : OYOU know, Sir,ol your own knowledge, whether or not
these petitioners, the ones you have cited and liberally quoted from
documents already in the record, werc before the Tusteeship Council in
that period?
hlr. DAHL~~AN NO:, hlr. President, definitely not Kerina, defiiiitely
not Kozonguizi, ais0 not Kuhangua, Nujoma and so on, nor rifichael
Scott at that time. No.
hlr. G~oss:None. The answer is no, Sir. 1 think that will be brought
out by the record, Sir. Now with respect to the proceedings at that time,
are you aware of, or familiar with, the resolutions adopted and the
recommendations made by the Trusteeship Council with respect to
Soutli West Africa policies,includingracialpolicies?
AIr.DAHLMAN Nl:. President,1 have read quite a lot about the
proceedings and also about certain resolutions, some adopted by small
majorities, some adopted by greater majorities, that is true, bIcannot
give any details about the resolutions.
Mr. GROSS B:ut you can say, Sir,can you, without qualification, that
those resolutionsand reports could not have been influenced by anytliing
these petitioners, who are called professional petitioners by the Respon-
dent, had to say at that time? WITh'ESSES AND EXPERTS 565
Mr. DAIILMAN N :ose petitioners 1 have quotcd had nothing to do
with, or,Iwould Say, at that time they did not appear as petitioners.
Mr. GROSSA : nd, Sir, do you know, for example,. when any of the
gentlemen that you mentioned firsfappeared aspetitioners before the
United Nations or any ofits organs?
hlr. DAHLMANN 1:said in my evidence that Kerina appeared as a
petitioner sinc1gj6.He !eft the countryin 1953.Michael Scott appeared
before that time as a petitione1am not quite sure since when, but he
wasin the Territory1 think in the la1940s-1g47 or so-which washis
last visito the Territory.
Mr. GROSSI:n your testimony, hlr. Dahlmann, did you read into the
record any correspondence fromhlrMichael Scott tothe United Nations?
hlr.DAILLMA NNNo 1 did not.
Rlr.G~oss: Now, with respect to the petitioners whose correspondence
you did read into the recordin detail, do you know them personally,
some of them? 1 believeyou have testified.
hlr.DAHLMAN So: e of them, yes.
Mr. GKOÇS: Could you state, just generally, for example, onetwo,
let us say Kozonguizi or Kerina, whattheir age was appronirnately at
the tirne of Sa1956,
Air.DAKLMAN Nhey were in thcirtwenties, IthinkKozonguizi was
born in 1922,and Kerina a little bit later, but more or less around that
time.
studying at Lincoln Universitinytlie UnitedStates?Sir? Was Kerina
Mr. DAHL~~AN That is correct, Mr. President. And Kozonguizi was
studying before that timin the Fort Hare University.
Mr. GROSS A:nd he is now studying in London, is he not, Sir, do you
know?
livinginLondon. Ndonot think that he is studying any morbut he is
Mr. GROSS: Incidentally, Sir, do you kiiow of any other petitioners
from South West Africa who are studying in the United States and
filing petitions at the same tirne?
Mr. DAHLICIAN MNr.:President, quitea number of petitioners from
South West Africa appear before certain United Nations bodies. For
example, Blr. Ngaviruc, air. KuhanguaRIr.Nujoma .. .
Mr. GROSS Sir, rnayI clarifmy question. I askedSir,whether OU
know whether any other petitioners arstudying orhave studied in the
United States?
hlr.URHLMANN Ye:s,1 think that Hassingthwait.. .
Blr.GROSS A:nd how about Bir. NathariicSir? 1.G. Nathaniel.
Rlr.DARLMANN N o, definitely not, G. Nathaniel is, tmy mind,
the Acting President of SWAPO in South West Africa. He is living at
Walvis Bay. He never went to the United States.
Afr. G~ciss:Sir , willnot pursue thiç point oiher thanto refer to
document A/AC~og/l'etitioners 219, 13April 1964, which is signedby
Mr.1. G. Nathaniel,asActing President ofSWAPO and is dated Brook-
lyn,New York, 16 AIarch1964. As a matter of information, since the
question had'come up withan earlier witness, just for the clarification of
the matter and for the assistance of the Court, can you state that this
indeed is an erroand 1 am miçinterpreting this petition? So farOUs
know, he was not in New York when he wrote this letter?566 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. DAHLMAN1N c:annot prove that, of course, but I have here in my
file a letter from 1. G. Nathaniel Maxuirili and he is the acting SWAPO
President. That is perfectly correct and, to my knowledge, he was never
in the United States. Actually he is living in Walvis Bay now, that is a
fact.
hlr. GROSS :hat isal1 want to know.1 have no persond knowledge
of this rnatter and make no representations, nor am 1 testifying with
respect to it, Mr.Dahlmann, but 1 wanted to know whether you know of
United States, or who have studied there, other than Merina. You
mentioned one other person 1 believe?
Mr. DAHLMANT here are a few of them.
Mr. G~oss:They are non-Whites?
Mr. DXHLMAXN No:n-LVhites,that is correct.
Mr. Gaoss: From South West Africa?
nir. DAHLMAXFN r:m South West Africa.
hlr. GROSSW: ith respect to the Trusteeship Councilrecomrnendations,
is it your recoliection that those Trusteeship Council recommendations
were accepted or referred to or adopted in General Assembly resolutions,
do you know?
Mr. DAHLMANY N:S.
Mr. G~oss:With respect to'the sources of information, if you know
from your studies, available to the United Nations bodies and agencies
and used by them, are you familiar with reports of the South West Africa
Committee, generally speaking?
The PRESIDEN1 T:idnotfollow that questionMr. Gross.
Mr.GROSS >:Ir.President, 1asked the witness whhe wasgenerally
familiar with the reports of the South West Afnca Committee.
The PRESIDEN1 Tthought you referred also to the sources of infor-
mation.
that, but I have to lay this foundation first, Mr. President, in fairness to
the witness.
&Ir.DAHLMAX Th:re were, 1think, at least t~vocornmittees.
nlr. GROSS Veil,I wouldreferspecifically, for example, ta the report
of the Committee on South West Africato the General Assembly, the
10th Session, Supplement No. 12, A/zg11955 .re you famiIiar with
that report, Sir, have you read it recently or at all?
Mr. DAHLMAND Ne:finitely not recently.
Mr.GROSS Y:OUdo not, then, know from your ownstudy or knowledge
whether this would or would not be a typical or illustrative rinort
respect of the statements of the Committee concerning the sources of its
information? Perhaps 1may simplify it, Mr. President, if 1should indicate
what the staternenwere?
The PRESIDENT 1:think the first thing is, before he can give any
evidence ofvalue, Mr. Gross, that he should be acquainted with that
particular documentwhich you Sayis illustrativaparticular subject-
matter.
Mr. GHOSSY :es, Sir. Essentially, the paragraph to which 1 refer is
paragraph No. zon page 8 ...
Mr. DAHLMANNH NNO:1 have not.hat before yoMr. Dahlmann?
Mr. CROSSI: t is a very brief statement, &Ir.President. IVITNESSES AXD EXPERTS 567
The PRESIDENT Le:t the witness be given a copy so that+he can see it.
He may identify it andsay he iç aware of it and knows ofit.
Jir. G~oss: Very good, Sir. Theparagraph I havein mind is at page 8,
paragraph z.Do you see it, Sir?
"On the basis of this information [which refers to information
generally referred to in the preceding paragraph] taken from the
officia1documentation issued by the Goveniment of the Union of
South Africa and, under its authority, by the Territory of South
West Africa, and on the basis of some other relevant information,
such as Press reports, the Cornmittee has drawn up the present
report concerningconditions in theTemtory of South West Africa."
I 1refer specifically to the statement by the Committee thatit liasdrawn
up the present report, arnong other things, on the basis of information
taken from the officia1documentation issued by the Government of the
Union. Have you, in studying this report, made any concIusions with
respect to theextent to which its findings and conclusions reflect the
officia1documentation of the Governrnent?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:es. At that timeno petitiont:rs were admitted to the
United Nations and the Trusteeship Council or the Cornmittee on South
lest Africn.had, of course, to use other source1 am not quite sure, but
I think only after 1954or 1955 werepetitioners rillowedto appear before
the United Nations.
Mr. GROSSi: Vith respect to the period prior tothedates you have just
mentioned, are you familiar, on the basis of your own study, with
General Assembly resolutions dealing with South West Africa?
Mr. DAHLMANN Y:eç.
Mr. GROSS:And would those resolutions reflect statements made by
petitioners ~vhich,as you say, had not then yet appeared? That would
be self-evident, would it not, that those resolutions could not have been
affected by their statements?
Mr. DAHLMANN No: ,they couid not.
Mr. G~oss: Also with respect to sources used tiy the Committee, there
is, in the documentation, United Nations document A/$212a, nd 1 refer
specificaIly to Addendum 1, 20September 1962, which is Annex XI-
of the hearings held by the Chairman and Vice-Chaiman of the Com-ecord
mittee in South West Africa. Now, 1donot propose to burden youor the
Court with an examination of the contents of this, but are you aware, do
you know about this, are you familiar with the document? Are YOU
famiiiar with the fact that such a report is in existence?
Mr. DAHLMANY N:s, I am familiar witli that.
Mr. G~oss: And ~vouIdit be a fair characterization of this feport that,
again without referring to its merits ordements, itsets forth in summary
form the records of interviews held in South West Afnca by these
gentlemen with vanous groups, individuals and organizations?
Bir. DAHEMANN 1 :rernember the visit of the Chairman and the Vice-
Chairman of this Committee very 1ve11 and they held discussions. But
beiore 1answer al1the questions involved 1must study the report and 1
must Say that this does not reflect the true situation or it does well
reflect the situation.
Mr. GROSS:Rly question does not go into that matter at all. The
question is whether it ia fair summary of the contents of this report, in565 SOUTH l'EST AFRICA
order to Save the Court's time, whichIam trying to do, that it reflects
the record in summary form of meetings held by these two gentlemen in
South West Africa with individuals, organizations and other perçons?
1s that a correct summary ofwhat this report contains?
The PRE~IDENT D:OYOU understand the question?
&Ir.DAHLMANN I:is rather difficult to Say whether that reflects the
situation...
The PRESIDENT N:O.The question is: does the summary indicate that
it isbased upon information gleaned by the Committee from vasious
interviews ~lth various people in the Territory?
Mr. DAHLMANK 'resI think so.
The PRESIDENT: Whether the summary be right or wrong, that is
what it does?
Mr. DAHLMA :Yes.
Mr. GROSS: In order to clarify,thisdoes it, for example, include a
summary of a meeting with Chief Kutako, with deputations from the
Waterberg East Native Reserve, with a deputation from SWANIO,
with a deputation ofHereros and Damara, with threeGerman residents
at Tsumeb, etc.? 1s thia fair refiection?
Rlr. DAHLMAN N:at is correct.
hlr. G~oss:This, then, ia summary of hearings, or meetings, held in
the Territory which was put out as a report of the Special Committee
for South West Africa. That iscorrect, is it not?
Rlr. DAHLMAN :NThat is correct.
MI. GROSS: And are you farniliar with the report ofthe Cornmittee
itself, to which this is an aninxwhich referenci: is made to this annex?
Mr.DAHLMAN1 N:m familiar with both of these.
Mr. GKOSS : r. President, the report wilofcourse, speak for itself,
but 1 just wanted to know whether the witness was familiar with it.
The report is document A/5212.
1wanted to ask you whether jrou regard, aç a political analyst and
expert, the right of petition aa fundamental or important right with
respect to the mandates system?
The PRESIDENT hlr. Gross,1 do not think that however you stretch
the expertise of this witneçs that he could be asked that question.
hlr.G~oss :May 1 then ask a question, Sir,whether, in yous expert
testimony, with respect to what Respondent calls professional petitioners,
in refemng to statements or petitions submittedy these petitionersor
others, you are seeking to have the Court infer anything in any way
derogator tythese individualçaspetitioners iexercising theirrighotf
petition?
Mr. DAHL~LAN No.
Mr. GROSS N:ow, you recognize, as a political analyst who has been
testifyinwith respect to the existence of these petitionerçyouhhave
characterized,in response to leading questionsby counsel, that their
petitions are erroneous and, perhaps, 1 think you used the phrase
"misleading" ?
Mr. DAHLMANN Yes.
Mr. G~oss: You do not mcan by that testirnony, or do you, to seek to
have the Court infer that these petitioners :ire dcliberatelytelling
untruths, do you?
Mt. DAHLMANh Nlr:President, iis difficultosay which motive is
behind this.1can only compare the petition and the true facts. That is WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 569
the only thing 1can Say. What their motives are and whether they do
this deliberately,or asproiessionals,I think this is too personaa view.
Mr. G~ciss:But you have no knowledge, Sir?
The PRI:SIDENTH : esays it is too persona1 a view.
MT. G~oss: You have no knowledge with respect to their motives,
that is what 1 understood you to say?
hlr.DAHLMANN N:O, 1 would not judge on that. Ionly see what they
wite and on the other hand I see the facts.
Rfr.G~oss:Now, would you also see, or perceive, difficulties in way
of comrnuiiication between thern and perçons in South \ITcstAfrica?
3Ir.DAHLMAN1 Nc:artnotsee any difficultp because iisa fact thatal1
the petiticins sent from South West Africa reach the United Nations.
For example a11the petitions sent by Woses Kutako or Kapuuo or other
personalitieswithin the Territory arrive at New York and 1 think they
also arrive in other parts of the countrhïr.Kapuuo told me, just a few
days before 1 left, that he is in contrict with &Ir.Kerina, for example. so
there is a~-iossibilityof communication,1think one could Say regardless
of the contents of certain telegrams. The Post Ofliceofficiaireadswhat the
sender says and 1 am not quite sure whether those telegrams would be
accepted in other countries, but here in South West Africa thcy are
accepted by the Post Officeand the contents are not altered or changed
and they are sent to Kew York or any other place.
There nlight be one difbculty at present, a; far as communication
between South West Africa and certain other Africnn countries are
concerncd, because of the boycott. I think itisat present impossible to
send a letter from South West Africa to Dar-es-Salaam, but that, is of
course, becauseof theboycott of the African States and South West Africa.
Mr.GROSS :ir, does the Government of South Africa transmit petitions
to the United Nations?
Mr. DAHL~IANN -J:O,hlr. President, not the Government. The peti-
tioner hirnself is free to write or send petitions to the United Nations.
hlr.GROSS Does the Government of South Africa, so faras you know,
Sir, send comments to the United Nations with respect to petitions?
Mr. DAIILMANN I:cannot remember aiiy. 1 know that the South
African representative sometimes makes speeches on this subject.
Mr. GROSS:Now, Sir, with respect to the cxercise of the right of
petition, wouId yousay, Sir, that the transmission of petitiasscontem-
plated by the League-do you know, Sir, are you familiar with the
League of Nations rules regarding petitions? -4re you familiar with this
subject aiall, Sir?
MT. DAHLIIIAK :NYOU mean petitions according to the Mandate?
Mr. GROSS : es, Sir.
MF. DAHLMANIN :now what the Mandate says.
111.G~oss: Kow, Sir,with respect to the transmission of petitiondo
you as a political analyst regard it as an important aspect of the super-
vision of the mandates system, or is this a question beyond your ken aa
political expert?
The PHESIDEST Y:es, fiIr. illuller.
Mr. MULLER :lr. President,surelythe witness isasked to deal with a
question as to whether that is a necessary part of supervision.Naw he
implies by that, supervision of the United Nations, and therefore that
there is an obligatiotosend it, or a connectioninany event. I do object
to that type of question.57O SOUTH WEST AFRICA
The PKESIDENTh :lr. Gross, how do you justify, in terms of relevance
of the witness's evidence, a question directed to him by merely producing
the phrase "as a political analyst"?Tliatdoes not make hirn an expert
upon whether it is or is not important to have the right of petition. Surely
that is a matter for the Court.
hIr. GROSS:M'ell,1tried seeking for the information, and 1would hope
for the benefit or value of the Court to elicit his opinion.
The PRESIDENTW : ell, 1 do not think that you can elicit it from a
witness such as this, nor do 1 think it is a matter for a witness to express
an opinion upon, unless you propose to attack his credit. If you propose
to attack his credit then the questionwill be allowed.
Mr. G~ioss: Sir, 1 am seeking to attack his credit in the sense of
presenting what seerned to be relevant facts regarding his opinions,
attitudes and understandings with respect to the question about which
he has testified, specifically the question of the role and activities of the
petitioners iithe United Nations.
The PRESIDEST:Very well,>Ir. Gross.If pou Say you propose to ask
the question on the basis of knowledge he hasor any view he wants to
express, or on the basis thatyon are chaüenging his credit,the question
willbe admitted; but you must understand that rinyanswer given by any
witness, as to whether it is important or not, is a matter for the Court.
You will not be assisted by what any witnesses ...
Rlr.GROSS:Oh, indeed, Sir. The sole purpose, 1need hardly assure the
honourable President, in al1 of this testimony is the hope that it will
elicit information and views which may be of benefit to the Court. 1,
really, Sir, have only one more question with respect to the matter of
petitions and petitioners, and that will conclude rny cross-esamination
of this witness.
The PRESIDEXTV : ery well, &Ir.Gross.
hlr. GROÇS:And that is with respect to the petitioners, the role of
petitioners in the mandate process.1sit your view that the system would
be strengthened by the transmission of petitions and the comrnenting
thereon by the Govertirnent of the Union?
>Ir.DAHLMANN : r. President, the questioii of petitions is for the
League of Nations, the League of Nations jurisdiction, and since the
death of the League of Nations it is a rnatter of argument between the
two parties-the United Nations and South Africa are arguing about
this issue, and think 1cannot go into this matter. Generally speaking, 1
do not want to refer specifically to petitions, any means of communica-
tion is alwaps a good thing.
Mr. GROSS:1 have no further question, Mr. President.
Tlie !?RESIDENT: Thank you. Judge Jessup desires to ask certain
questions of the witness.
The PRESIDENT:Thank you. Does any other Afember of the Courtresident.
desire to put any question to the witness? If not, Mr. Muller, do you
desire to put any questions on re-esamination?
Rlr.MULLER:l'es, please, Mr.President.
The PRESIDENT :Proceed, please.
Mr. MULLERM : r.Dahlrnann, this morning my learned friend Afr.Gross
read to you passages from a report of the Cornmittee on South West
Africa. It is a report Supplemerit No. rzA (A/4gz6jand he read from
paragraphs 154 and 155. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 57I
Mr. President, may 1 for convenience, 1 have one copy heask my
learned friend for his copy to give to the witness?
The PRESIDENT:1 am sure that Mr. Gross wi11not rnind, unless, of
course, it has counsel's marks on the side.
Mr. MULLER: Mine is, 1think, clear, if 1'could...e
The PRESIDENT H:ave you any objectionsat~111M,r. Gross?
Mr. GROS : Paragraphs154 and 155 (b).
The PRESIDENTT : hank you.
Mr. MULLER : aving read the passages, my Iearned friend dealt with
only two matters concerned inthose passages; the fiwas with regard
tothe question of professionab practising their professions in South West
Afnca, and the second was the question of trade unions. Now 1 wish to
deal with the allegations made by the Comrnittee of South West Africa in
this document, and ask you for your comment thereon.
In paragraph155 the allegation is made thfhe Native population is
not allowed to organize themselves into political parties. 1s that correct
or iiot?
hlr.DAHLMANN N:, Mr. President, that is not correct. The Native
population is allowed to farm political parties.
Mr. MULLER It: is furtherstated in the document:
"In the economic life of the country, the Native peoples have no
sharein the profits of trade, commerce and industry."
1s that correct, or not?
Mr. DAHLMANN KO: ,that is also not correct.
&Ir.MULLER:
". .in the utilization or exploitation of their agricultural, fishing
or rich mineral resources, their only role being as a cheap source of
labour for the benefit of the Whites".
1s that correct, or not?
Mr. DXHLMANT Nh:at iç alço not correct; they are also in higher posts
within these industries.
Mr.MULLER T:here is also the statement in this that thejf have no
right to own la.nd. 1s that correct, or not?
Mr.DAHLMANN No:, that is not correct and that applies not only to
the Coloureds, that they are entitled to own land, it also applies to the
Natives.
Mr. MULLERM : rithregard to land, they say-
"...which has been alienated to the extent that only 26 per cent.
of thetotal land area of the Territory has been reserved for the Non-
European majonty".
Canyou espress an opinion on that, or not?
hlr. DAHLNAWh Nfr:. President, 1can only express an opinion asfar as
the quality of the land is concerned, allocated to the Natives.
The PRESIDENT T:hatiçnot the question. The question is percentage
of land.
Mr. MULLER T:e percentage of land-canyou expressmy opinion on
thMr.DAHLMAN : Nhe percentage, 27per cen:1do not know the exact
figure ofiand.
Mr. MULLER:Well, if you cannot 1 leave thnt. It goes on to Say,57= SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"Neither have the Natives the right to practise the professions or to
engage in generaI trade".1sthat correct, or not?
Mr. DAHLMANN: NO,that is not correct.
hlr. MULLER: ".. .or to engage in ... commerce and industry": is
that correct, or not?
Mr. I~AHLMANN It: is not.
Mr. MULLER: "...nor even the right to organize themselves into trade
unions"-is that correct, or not?
Mr.DAHLMAKN T:hat also inot correct; thep are entitled to organize
themselves into trade unions.
Mr.MULLER:Kow, 1 want to refer to certain questions put to you on
Monday, by my learned friend, Mr. Gross, in the record. Firstof al1 at
page 515 ,upra: have you got the verbatim record, Mr. Dahlmann?
hlr. DAHLMAN :Nl'es.
Mr. MULLER :OW, on that page you will find that Mr. Gross read to
Minister for South West Africaaespeech which was made on 6 May 1964,
the portion quoted reading as follows:
"The Leader of the Opposition yesterday asked 'what about
Katutura, the people aretiil in the old location'. 1shall tell him lyhy
they are there, they are still there because they have been incited
not to move."t to move; they are being incited by the Opposition
Have you studied the speech of the Deputy Xinister?
Mr. DAHLMANY Ne:s, have studied the report.
Mr. MULLER:Did he explain in which particular way he meant that
the Whites had incited the Natives notto move from Katutura?
Mr. DAHLMANN:The Deputy Minister for South West Africa
stMr. MULLER:Will you give the page; where does that follow in the
speech itçel?
Mr. DAHLMAXN It: is in colum5516 and 5517.
hlr. MULLER : hat did he say in theparticiilar portioyou have in
mind?
hlr. DAHLMANN T:hat is at the bottom of 5516:
"What about Katutura, the people are still in the old location?
have been incited by Whites not to move, theysarebeing incited byhey
theopposition not to move.Today they are sittingthere just to make
things difficult for us. They want us to force them; they want an
incident. They want theoutside wodd to have a reason to act and
to force us. Let me give examples. Recently the organizer of the
United Party in South West Africa held a meeting at Marienthal,
and one of the farmers asked this question: 'My farm falls in the
area earmarked for a Bantu homeland. What must 1 do-must 1
move or not?' The organizer replied: 'My advice to you is not to
move, stap there. Stay there for five years,en another five years,
then another fiveyears.' By saying that, they are setting an example
to the non-\mites, becauseifthe \mite man is told not to do it, the
non-White aiso says 'Why should I do it?' That is a game that they
are playing there. 1 can tell you that you are doing those peopae
disservice." WITNESSES ASD EXPERTS 573
&Ir.MULLER :hank you. Nr. Dahlmann, also at page 498, supra, of
the record ofonday, my learned friendhIr.Gross, dealt wita petition,
No. A/AC.~og/Pet.z~g of 13 April 1964, and hi: qiioted a passage from
the petitioii dcaling with opposition to the Odendaal Commission report.
Have you got that petition with you, or a copy of it?
3IrDAHLMANN Y es,1 have got a copy of th<:petition.
Mr. MULLER W:ill you tell the Courtby whom that petition was
signed?
&IrUAHLMANN T he petition is signed by Jacob Kuhangua, National
Secretary, South West Africa People's Organization and Moses Katjihu-
angua, Representative, South \IrestAfrica National Union.
hfr.MULLE :IVhere did the petition emanate from?
Mr. DAHLMANN T his petition comes from Dar-es-Salaam.
Mr. MULLER D:Oyou know the two people referred to in that docu-
ment, whose names you have just read?
Mr. DAHLMANN T heir names are familiar to meIdo not know them
personally.
Mr. MULLER D:o you know whether they are in South West Africa?
Mr. DAHLMANN T hey are not in South West Africa.
hlr.MULLER :ave you any information where they are?
Blr.DAHLMANN A:Sfar as1 know Moses Katjihuangua, theSLVANU
representative, is livingin Dar-es-Salaam and Jacob Kuhangua-1do not
know where he is living; sometimes he in the United States, sometimes
in Africa.
The PRESIDENT W ere they ever, to your knowledge, in recyears in
South West Africa?
Mr. DAHLMANN 1cannot say when they left South West Africa; to
my knowledge they left South West Africaduring the late fifties or early
sixties.
Mr. MULLERM : r.Uahlmann, another matter ~vhich 1 wish to cleaup
is: my leaimed friend,Mr. Cross, on the same day, that is Monday,
dealt witha request madeby Chief Hosea Kutako-it is at pages 493-494,
st$ra-and I think 15 of his people, Hereros, to visit Ovamboland for
certain political purposes, and that requewas refused. Will you look
at his question at pag494, which reads as follows:
"So that, Sir,on the basis of your knowledge of the Territory and
the distance,speed in communications and tlie like, your assumption
would be, as an expert or othenvise, that between the letter dated
30 January and the response dated 4 February, in that interval the
Chiefs in Ovamboland, Kaokoveld and the Okavango Native
Reserves have heen consulted and have advised the Administrator
of theii. objection to this proposed visit. Would that be your under-
standing, on the basis of your knowledge of the Territory, as a
probable situation?"
And your answer was "It is technically possibl1"want to clear upthe
"technically possible". Do you know what mcans of communication
there arebetween Windhoek and Ovarnboland?
Mr. DAHLMANN T:here is radio-telephone between Windhoek and
Ovamboland, and also between Windhoek and the other Reserves.
hlr.MULLER :rising from that, do you know whether any meetings
of different politicaparties were held in South West Africa at any
place?574 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Air. DAHLMANNM : any meetings have taken place in South !!'est
Africa-political meetings of one party and also joint political meetings
of diffcrcnt parties.
Mr. MULLER T:hank you. Those are al1the questions 1wished to put,
&Ir.President.
The PRESIDENT:Thank you, Rlr. Muller. Mr. Gross, do ÿou desire
>Ir. Dahlmann to remain in attendance?
hlr. GROSS :30 thank you, Sir.
The PRESIDENTT : he witness will be released from further attendance,
if you receive no other communication during the course of the day,
Mr. Muller.
BZr.MULLER: 1 thank you, Mr. President.
The PREÇIDENT:You are relensed from further attendance, Nr.
Dahlmann, subject to my observation.
Mr. MULLER :&lr.President ,the next witness will be General Marshall,
and 1just wish to know whether he is here-may 1 justask whether he
has arrived? I have given instructions that he should come. Yes, Mr.
President, he is here, and with your permission sviUproceed ...
The PRESIDELITP:lease do proceed.
3fr. MULLER M: ay1, in the meantirne, indicate, Mr. fiesident, that
General Marshall's evidence will be directed at the issues arising under
tSouth West Africa, and the particular point to which his testimony will
be directed asnotified to the Applicants is the following: whether the
facilities in South West Africa which are described by Applicants as
military bases can be regardedas such. May 1 askthat General Marshall
be permitted to make both the declarations provided for in the Statute,
that is as witness and as expert?
The PRESIDEST L:et the declarations be made. General hiarshall,
wiil you come to the podium?
General ~IANSHALI Ln: my capacity as a witness 1 solemnly declare
upon rny honour and conscience that I wiIl speak the truth, the whole
truth,and nothing but the truth. In my capacity as an expert 1solemnly
declare upon my honour and conscience that my statement will be in
accordance with my sincere belief.
The PRESIDENT Y:es, Mr. Muller?
hfr. MULLER:May I proceed, Sir?
The PRESIDENT P:lease do.
hïr. MULLER:General Marshall, your full names are Samuel Lyman
Atwood ararshall, ithat correct? l'ou are a citizen of the United States
of America, is that correct?
General MARSHALL T:hat is correct.
Alr. MULLER:May 1read your academic qualifications, and you can
tell the Court whether what I state is correct? You hold a degree of
Doctor of Humane Letters of Wayne State University, is that SO?
General MARSHALL T:hat iscorrect.
Mr. ~TULI~ER A:nd a Doctor of Law degree of St. Bonaventur Univer-
sity, is that correct?
General MARSHALL T:hat isright, but 1would point out that those are
hoMr. MULLERre:Good. Did you see service during the First World War?
General MARSHALL1 : joined the Amy of the United States, Mr.
President, in May rgr7, and was sent to Europe early and spent two WITNESSES AFD EXPERT'S 575
vears over there, fiasta Sergeant of Enginet:rs, and whe1 returned
in late1919I came back as a Lieutenant and CompanyCommander, and
then 1returned to my studies at Texas CoIlegofMines.
Mr. ~~ULLISI~Did S'OUjoin the Army again after that period?
General MARSHAL L: as briefly witli the Kegular Army 1922 ,or
about sevt:n months.
Mr. ~IULLER :an you describe to the Court what your position and
occupatioii were in the perio1922-19427
General MARSHALL :n 1922, while with the Army, 1 found that 1
could mite and do professionai writin1left the Regular Army, resigned
my commission, and from that time on began specializing in military
studies on my own, working however as a newspapeman, principally as
a war correspondent and foreign correspondent.
JIrMUI-LER I:that period did you, aa correspondent, cover certain
revolutions in the world?
General MARSHAL L:covered two rzvolutions in Mexico, one in
Nicaragua and the war in Spain in1936.
Mr. MULLER: What military experience did you have after the year
1942 ?
General MARSHALIL : ascailed back into service shortly after Pearl
Harbour as (the titsaid)Expert Consultant to the Secretary of \Var,
Henry L. Stimson; then after serving in that capacity for three months,
1 was asked to go back into uniform to establish the orientation course
for the United States, which is our name for indoctrination, and 1 was
its Director for one yea1.was then one of three General Staff Officers
who were set up to establish the historicnl division of the Army for the
purpose of that war,and 1served briefiy in the Pcntagon in that capacity,
and then was sent outasthe main field hand to establish our methoof
operating under battle conditions1first had tcn months in the Pacific
in that capacity during1943 and the early part 1944 ,nd just before
Normandy 1was pulled out of the Pacifiand sent to Europe on a sort
of a crashmission to reconstitute the historical effort I wasstila
General Staff Officer on the iiar Department Generai Staff, but afIer
had been there for some months my status was changed, and 1 was
made Chief Historian of the European theatre for the duration, and1
remained in that capacity, not just having responsibility for American
forces in the theatre, butlsoresponçible for the CO-ordination in the
Allied effort, thisto sayI was dealing with the British Army, French
Army and the Canadian Arrny, and so on. and1continued until May of
1946 when Iagain left the Army.
Mr. MULLER: After1946 did you haveany further connection withthe
Army during certain particular periods?
GeneraI ~ZARSHAL Between 1946, when 1 was separated, and the
Korean Wiir1 was called back to dut47times by the WarDepartment,
or Department of the Army as it became, and these were missions
extending sometimes two or three days-the longest one was for six
months.
&Ir.NULLER:Were those missions to any particular u7ar theatres, or
did they include any missions of that nature?
General MARSHAL TL:ey included missions overseas, but thewere
mainly Gei~eralStaffmissions in the Pentagon.
Mr. MULLEI ~:hen were you promoted to therank of General?
General MARSHAL :1951.576 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. MULLER D:idYOU after that date have further connection with the
Army, in America or overseas?
General MARSHAL 1L:as sent for service in Korin the fa11of 1950,
and stayed there until the sprinof 1951 as Operations Analyst of the
Eighth Army, and then 1 went back to Korea in1953as a civiiian corre-
spondent,and within four days aftergetting therI was given a military
mission by the Commander of the theatre, General Mark Clark, and1
continued on military duty for four months at that time.
Mr.MULLER D:idYOU have anything todo with the Suez campaign in
Israel?
General MARSHALL: 1went to Isracl shortly after the action started
and joined the lsraeli Army in the Sinai PeninsuIa, and stayed with them
for the duration of the carnpaign; anmy work was mainly to find out
how they had conducted their operations.
Mr. MULLER : id YOU have anything to do with the civil \var in
Lebanon?
GeneralMARSHALL: 1 was in Lebanon for three months covering the
civilwar therein,1 thinkitrvas theyear that followed that.
Mr. MULLER L:ater in the Congo, in the yerg61?
General MARSHALL: 1 was in the Congo for approximately three
months. Again 1was working as a correspondent, bu1was also carrying
out work for the Senate of the United States at the same tirne.
hlr.MULLER: Did you have any officia1duties relative to twar in
Viet-Nam?
General MARSHAL Ln: 1962 1was sent there on a mission for the
Department of Defence, along with Allan Dulles,theDirector of CIA,
and Mr. Car1Bendetson, the former Under-Secretary of the Arrny.
hlr.MULLER D:o you lecture on military matters at different military
staff colleges?
General MARSHAL L:lecture at al1of them in the United States with
the exception ofthe Naval Staff College. 1 have never appeared there.
1 lecture at Camberley in England, at the NATO Staff College in Paris,
the Israeli Cornmand and General StaffCollege outside of Tel-Aviv, at
the NationaliçtChinese Command and General Staff School not far out
of Taipeh and at the Canadian Command and General Staff School at
Kingston, Ontario.
Mr. MULLER: Are you the author of any works on military matters?
General MARSHALL: Twenty-six, which are published books, that is,
books published for the public, an1,would Say,somewhere between IO
and 14 manuals, orstudies that are circulated only within the Services.
Alr. MULLERA : re they service manuals?
General MARSHAL :LYes,Sir.
Mr. MULLE :RDo you contribute also to Collier'sEncyciopnedinand
Encyclopedia Britannica,on rnilitary matters?
General MARSHAL Lw:rite on military categories for tBrita~znica
and for Collier's EncycLopaediaand also on military terminology for
Random Home Dictionary.
Mr. MULLER :ow, General, are you conversant with the provisions
of ArticleIV of the hfandateofSouth West Africa?
General MARSHALL :have iit beforme; yes, I am familiar wjth it,
Mr. Preçident.
Air.MULLER M:ay1just quotethe last sentence in that? "Furthermore, WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 577
no military or naval bases shall be established or fortifications erected in
the territoiy."
General J~ARSHALL 1:have that.
$Ir. MULLER:DO YOU consider that, with your knowledge and exper-
ience of military matters, you could assist the Court in expressing an
opinion relative to the question as to whether x particular facility is a
military base or not?
General -MARSHALL 1 :believe1can, &Ir.President.
Mr. MULLER:Have you visitecl the Territory of South West Africa?
General MARSHALL I: have visitei-1it twice. 1 wàs therin April, the
latter part of April.
Mr. MULLER:April of tvhich year?
General MARSHALL A:pril of this year, for a period of eight days, 1nd
returned in September of this year. 1 was there for four-and-a-half
days.
Wr.MULLER: NOW,in your first visit to the Territory, which portions
ofthe Territory did you pay a visit to?
General ~~IAIISHALA Lf:fer arrivain Windhoek, I flew first to the
Caprivi strip, then to Runtu on the Okovango River; and then to
Ondangua in the Ovambo country; and then to theUis mining country,
west of Windhoek; and then down to Oranjemundi, to seethe operation
of the dianiond fields. Thcn 1 visited various Reservations-the Herero
Reservation, outside of Windhoek. and Kehoboth, the Baster Reserva-
tion, and met people there. 1visited, to the limit allowed by my time, the
schools in those areas that Ipassed through.
Rir. MULLER:On your second visit, what particular places did you go
to? That w:is the vjsit in September, 1think you said, of thisyear?
General MARSHALLS:tarting at Windhoek, we flew to Ohopoho, and
then flewfrom there to Tsumeb, and then back to Windhoek.
hIr.MULI.ER:Will you deçcribe to the Court what Ohopoho consists of,
what is therc at Ohopoho?
General ~IAIISHALLO : hopoho is a remote station in a very desolate
area. WCflt:w 370 and some odd miles ironl Windhoek to get there, with
no stop in between. We were travelling in a Piper ilztec. Over those 370
miles, we saw no flat ground until we got direct:ly above Ohopoho and
there was not a valley, but a cleared area-a gi:nerally cleared area-
1 urould say, roughly, about three or four miles across, surrounded by
srnall hills and relatively flat. The main airstrip that came in on was
3,000 feet long, not very well tended-there were bumps in it-the cross-
airstrip was approximately 1,500 feet long, and beyond the airstrip,
approsirnatcly 250 yards, was a collection of houses-five main houses,
as I rccall, ancl two or three srnall shedlike affairs.
WC visiti:d thc Commissioncr, we checked inti, the facilitiesI found
outthe size of tlie staff tllerc, edo not know how much 1am wanted
to go on?
Mr. MULLER First of all, wiIl you tell the Court: the landing strip
that you h:lve referred to, with the srnaller cross-strip, what does that
consist of?'[sit tarmac, bitumen or . . .
General MARSHAI~L N:O, it is just relatively cleared sand. It is some-
what wider than this Courtroorn and it is onlyin the centre that we found
it welt-maintained. It is slightly downhilThe air there seerns to bvery
difficult. In taking off in the Piper Aztec, we rieeded 2,000 feetofthe
3,000 feet to get airborne.578 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
hlr.MULLER :an any but a smali plane land there? Could big planes
land on this airstrip?,
General MARSHAL L:would judge that you could get a Dakota or a
C 47 in there.do not believe it would be at al1times a çafeventure, that
is all.
hlr.MULLER N:ow, would you just explain to the Court what a Dakota
is, and a C 47?
General MARSHALL A:Dakota is a srnall military carrier-type plane.
It was the plane thatwe used principaily in flyithe Hump in World
Wai II, in carrying supplies in to China. It is still a standard carrier with
civilian airlines. You wiii see it all up and down the airfields of Africa. I
think it is the principal vehicle.
The ~ESIDENT: YOU seethem al1over the world, do you not, General?
General MARSHALY Le:s, indeed, they are al1LVorld\Var TI relics, but
they hold up very mell.
hlr. ~IULLE :II re there any facilities at this particular airstnp, or at
Ohopoho, asa whole, of a military nature?
hlr. ~IULLERHD:id you inspect the logbook kepbyathe Commissioner.
at Ohopoho, relativeto the use of the landing strip?
General MARSHALL :he logbook actually is not kept by the Com-
missioner. The Commissioner has been there only two weeks and his
European Deputy Commissioner, Mr. Roberts, has been there for a year
anda half andthe logbookwasinhishands. It iswith him th1sawthe log.
Mr. MULLERC :an you give the Court an indication of the ofthat
landing-strip, according to the log,afperiod of12 months preceding
your visit?
General MARSHALE Li:ght planes had used the field,ofwhich one was a
military plane. Thats to Sayit belonged to the South African Air Force,
but the party was hlr. Botha, the Deputy Commissioner for Bantu
Affairs, and a group of politicians. That was al1that was identified in the
logbook.
hlr. MULLER W: aving regard to the strip it.. .
The PRESIDENT C:ould 1 ask a question of General MarshaHow far
did the logbook go back, General? Did you notice that at ail?
General MARSHALIL t:went back for four years.
The PRESIDENT D:id you have a look st whst appeared in the logbook
over a period of time?
General MARSHAL :Les, Sir.
The PRESIDENT C:an you give the Court sorne indication about the
logbook during this time?
General MARSHALT Lh:is was the average trafic. The year before that
ithad been seven. hfr. Roberts had had nothing to do with the logbook
before that tirne an1 talked to the Bantu deputy, who was the hold-
over person, and I think there was one visit ofII planes-one year
showed rI planes-another seven, and the Bantu deputy told me that
that had been about standard during the years that the field had been in
operation.
a military base?uld you Say,General Marshall, that the landing strip is
General MARSHALN LO: ,I would not.
Mr. MULLE RDid you visit any other airstrips in the area simiiar to
that at Ohopoho? WITXESSES AND EXPERTS 579
General NARSHALL i:edid not visit any in that area. On tway up,
1 kept track of airstrips along the way. There were two. One was four
miles off-line, the other was somewhat closer to us, that is two in 380
miles and these were al1smaller airstrips, one with a single runway. They
would be good for light planes but for nothing elst:.
The PRESIDEN T r.Muller, I think it might assist the Court if ivehad
some information about the types of building and what they were used
for and how far removed they werefrom tlie airstrip.
GeneraI MARSHALh LI:r. President, the buildiiigs at Ohopoho?
The PRESIDEKT Y:es.
General MARSHALT Lh:ese are the buildings where the staff live.
The PRESIDEK : 1Vhichstaff?
General MARSHALL The staff is conipased of the Commissioner ;
missioner; and besides these, a veterinary surgeon, two stock inspectors
and four policemen, one of them a European sergeant, one a European
constable and two Bantu assistant policemen. The buildings in which
they Ilivethe main building is the residence of the Commiçsioner; the
Bantu also Iive ithis collection of houses. One thing t1afailed to Say,
whicb I think çhould be made clear; I found that nobody took respon-
sibility for this airstrip. As it was explained, the planes cornein so seldom
that they clonot bother with maintenance untilthey get a message that
a plane is coming in. The Commissioner and Mr. Roberts told me that it
had been on this basis, that whoever happencd to be on station at the
time among the three, the Hantu sub-Commissioner, or 31r. Roberts or
the Commissioner, would take responsibility for the clearance. Theris
no crew working it, ther-eare three Bantu-1 took their pjctures whil1
was there-who had worked it over before our coming.
[Public ltearinof14 Octobcr19651
Mr. MULI.ERG :eneral Marshall, just before the adjournment yesterday,
you were dealing with certain facilities at Ohopoho, ou had described
the landing strip as well as certain accommodation 8thopoho. Now, did
you find any military personne1in attendence?
General MARSHALN L:ne.
Jlr. MULLER : ere there any indications that there had ever been a
military base atOhopoho?
GeneraI MARSHALL N:O, hlr.President. There were no indications
whatever. To what 1 said yesterday, 1 should add that the general area
plane that (:an land in that field could also put down safely in the Bush.
It would be a littlc rough Ianding but the field does not add much to the
çafety of the area. There is no drainage at this field, no drainage system;
there is no apron to this field;thc fuelling system is rudimentary, it
consists of a cart ~vhichis manhandled and kept arnong the houses and
brought out-1 think it probably has about a 500-gallon tank on it.
There is nothing around there to indicate that the military have ever
been interested in it because it ~vouldbe more secured, better policed and
under military guard and as far as 1could see, t:herewas no indication
that the field had been changed-attle roam the field thoughout the
day and when the field has tobe cleared, iislargely a rnatter of tearing
down the ant hills, which grow to a great sinethat area,and ofclearingsaO SOUTH WEST AFRICA
the cattle alvaFr.The cattle had be cleared away before we could take
off.
Mr. MULLER : ou also told the Court that in April of this yeyou
had visited the Caprivi, the Okavango and Ovamboland. Did you then
also travel by plane?
General MARSHAL L:es, hlr. President, we travellby plane during
that entire passage except for the visit to the Herero Reservation and to
Relioboth. M'emade the Capriviby plane and thestripin service theris
more rudimentary than the one at Ohopoho because it is largely over-
grown with grass.The one at Runtu is even more primitive, you cannot
'see it whenyou are directly above it because of the depth of the graçç.
hlr.MULLER :nd in Ovamboland?
General MARSHALL I: Ovamboland. the same way. There is a new
fieldgoing in along the runways but the one we had was quite bumpy and
1 would Say about 2,000 yards long oftothe edge of where the new strip
was going in.
Mr.MULLER I: your opinion, would any of these three facilities that
you have now mentioned, that is at theCaprivi, Runtu in the Okavango
and at Ovamboland, be a military base?
General MARSHAL :NO,
hlr. MULLER I: your last visit to South West Africa, that is in Sep-
tember, did you also inspect certain military facilities at Windhoek?
General ~\~ARSH.~L,1 did,
Mr.MULLER : ould pou tell the Court what those facilities consist of?
GeneraI MARSHAL L :ere are four instaliations altogether. WhenI
went there 1 thought that the primary object of the search was to look
up Regiment Windhoek and as soon as 1 got there, 1 found that there
were other things that needed to be considered and 1 dealt with the
South West Command. 1went first to its Headquarters. 1had arrived on
a Thursday and 1 met the Commander of the South West Command and
1 told him that 1wanted his entire staff to be present on the Saturday.
We started at his administration building, the men were present, 1
checked that according tothcir duty roster-there were aitogether 5
officers and15other ranks. We went first to the administration building
which was a modern two-storey building approximately three blocks from
the centre of Windhoek. It is not protected except ba light wire fence
urith three strands; itrightoff the stre;there is nsentry at the gate.
The building is a normal administration building for the handling of
military affairs andt is takenup mostly by the esecutive officers-that
of the Commander, his Adjutant and so on. There isafile room, records
room and there is a communications centre or a message centre and
beyond these offices and the archivai room is the only other feature of
the building-a supply room. The supply room is probably a third of the
sizeof this chamber as to floor space and it is given over alrnost ~vholly
to quartermaster supply-I would say that thcre are about 60-80 bins
there, the bins being not more than two feet by two feeby about four
feet in depth. There are normal quartermaster items including even
some items for navy personnel, whicli are supplies to navy cadets going
to high school there. Thiial1clothing, canteens or first aid packs, some-
lhing of thatkinde ,xcept foronerack, ttrhich vroubelarge enough to
hold about, 1 would estimate, 50 rifles. In the rack there we47 rifles,
43 of them were mode1 4, old-style, World War II rifles, they were not
cleaned, and three of them were the modern Belgian full-automatic rifle. WITh'ESSES AKD EXPERTS gal
Alr.MULLER Vliat other facilities did you see at Il'indhoek?
General ARSHA HA Lie:went next to the camp at Windhoek, which is
just offthe edge of the town on the way to the airport. The reservation
is approximately 500 yards by 500yards. It too is surroundedby a simple
wire fence of three strandsno barbs, and it is not guarded during the day.
There is a parade ground in the reservation, about IOO yards by roo
yards. The rest of the section of land-it is approximately a section, is
rough groiind, rocky and too uneven for drill purposes. Now, within
that reservation are five permanenthouses, which are used by the rnarried
personnel, officers and N.C.Os. of the South West Command-the
farnilies live therc. There is also a tent camp of 13 tents, rather dilapi-
dated-looking tents, which isup close to the parade gound and these tents
are occupir:d by 22 trainees from Walvis Bay, who corne in there and do
their six rrionths training, gcttincredit for itby guarding this camp:
that is their sole duty.n~easured this out wiih 22men and on a reserva-
tion of the size1 have described,500 yards by 500 yards, you would have
at least four picket posts at night or simply postç with men going two
hours on and two hours off,that would mean the employment of 12 men
every night, so there would not be much time for them to do anything
else except do goard duty.
Sow, beyond that there is a store room, which is given over altogether
to re-supply for the motor facilities, that is to say it is a spare-parts room,
a very small one, 1 would Say about IO feetby 30 feet in length, with at
least two hundred bins in it because of thegreat variety of vehicularization.
Then thei-e is a motor shed, which is roofed over but has no walls to it,
where they keep their transportation and there is a small pre-fab build-
ing, metal, which is used as a kind of a mess and club room by the
personnel of South West Command. The entire camp is under the charge
of a Sergeant-Major, who iç part of the staff of South West Command.
1 believe that completes the description of the second facility.
hlr. MULLER W:iat other facilitiesdid you seinand about Windhoek?
General MARSHAL TL:e third faci1ity.ia hangar, right next to the
airport.
Mr. MULLERW : ould you describe which airport?
General MARSHALL The Windhoek airport-the civilian sirport. lt is
a large hangar and inthat hangar are weapons. Thehangar is surrounded
by two fairly high fences, they are not barbed-wire fencebut simple wire
with a spaçc of about KO yards in between them, andthe door is covered
by one sentry. We got into the hangar and 1 found in there 12 Ferrets ,
-Ferrets are a small armoured car,standing about ashigh as 1 do, biiilt
somewhat in the shape of a small tank, they are a reconnaissance
vehicle-û of these maunted a 30 calibre machine gun.They open and
close as does atank, that is, the driver is either driving "buttonup" so
that he is looking through a periscope or else he is in the open air. They
travel at around 30 m.p.h. These were the modern vehicles in the place
and then, behind these there were six Mark 4 armoured cars and six
light tanks, al1of them IITorld War II material, and half of them were
out of commission-a little more than half were out of commission. Some
did not have their tracks on, others had their turrets off. Then, there
were 16 rniscellaneous vehicles, LVorld War II jeeps, trailers, three-
quarter ton trucks and, besidesthese items which 1have described, there
was a six-pounder gun, which they told me was used for ceremonial
purposes.582 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. MULLER Now, was there any other facility in addition to what
you have described?
General MARSHALL: There was a rifle range about three-and-a-half
miles out of Windhoek, arnid the hills. It asvery ordinary rifle range
with ranges running from IOO to 1,000 yards but this is not strictla
military facilitp although it is used, at times, by the militaryIt is
owned by the municipality and at the time that 1 wns there it was the
site oa meet of the South West Rifle Association. There we84 civilian
competitors on the range and their wives were there preparing the meal
for them.
Mr. MULLER N:OW,do you consider any of these facilities, either
singly or collectively, to constitutelitary base, or bascs?
GeneralMAI~SHAL LO:,1do not.
MT. MULLER :eforeyou lefton your lastvisitto South ivest Afrjca,
was Sour attention drawn to certain allegatio~ls made in the United
Nations relative to an atomic facility in the Tsunieb area of South West
Africa?
General MARSHAL Ly:attention was drawn, though in avery vague
way. I did not know exactly what it was that 1 was Iooking for.1was
told that this had been stated and that1 was to pay a visit there i1
could-and the word atomic was used; there was aIso sorne reference to
gas. 1went out of my way, not exactly knowing what it was.
hlr.MULLER Did ÿou go to the Tsumeb area and inspect the area?
Mr. G~oss: RlrPresident,1 have waited, thinking that counsel would
specify tvhat these "certain allegations" were-tbe more specific, Sir,
with respect to "United Nations" allegationsas 1 believe he described
them. Could it be requested, Sir, that there be some clear indication of
what theçe alleged atomic installations were, or whatever they were,
and by whom the allegations were made, and in what context?
The PRESIDENT S:Othat Mr. Gross may be able to follow the reference,
Mr. Muller, would you please explainto the Court?
Mr.MULI.ER Y:es, Sir1 urillIreferred to Uriited Nations document
A/AC.rog/SR.345 of 14 July 1965.Ttis adocument of the Special Com-
mittee of the Situation with regard to the Implementation of the De-
claration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries
and Peoples. It records staternents by certain petitionersinter aEia,
Mr. Make of the Pan African Congress, at page 8 of this document, to the
effect that: "As part ofits military activities, SoutAfiicawaç now
building nuclear reactors in its own country and in South West Africa."
The PRESIDENT:1sthis document part of the evidence? It isdifficult
to keep track of al1 the documentsMr. Muller.
Mr. MULLER NO, Mr. President, 1 do not thinkitis yet part of the
record.Then, hlr. President, in connection with the same matter, United
Nations document DC/PV.82, 17 hlay1965. It is a provisional verbatim
record of the 82nd meeting of the United Nations Disarmament Com-
mission in which, at page 48,the allegation is made that: "the South
African Government has established an atomic testing centre at Tsumeb
in the Kalaharj Desert in South \Vat Africa."
The PRESIDENT:DO YOU propose to tender those documents at any
particular stage?
Mr. MULLER hlr. President, our intentionis,as 1 have indicated
before, to deal in argument with various documentsrelative to petition-
ers, staternents made by petitioners, in the course of considering what WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 583
1refer to asthe law-creating, or nom-creating, processes relied upon by
the Applicantç.
Mr. CROSSM : r. President, with respect to the last allegation-1 believe
counsel used that terrn-may the record show. Sir, the document not
being available to Applicants at this tirne, whether that allegation was
made by a petitioner or by a United Nations Agency, Sir?
hlr. MULLERT :he allegation in the last document, Mr. President, was
made by Mr. Malecela of the United Republic of Tanzania.
Mr. G~oss: 1 see, Sir, and may 1 point out, for the record, &Ir.Presi-
Applicants, noissue is drawn by the Applicants, in this case with respect
to any atornic installations or nuclear capabilities in the Territory?
The PRESIDEKT :observe that, Mr. Gross. Mi-.Muller, the allegations
which you have referred to have never bccn put fonvard by the Appli-
cants as being connected with, in any çense, a breach of the Mandate.
Llihat is the relevance of the evidence which you seek to obtain from
General hlarshali?
hlr. RIULLER h:lr. President; it is quite correct that the Applicants
have never named this asone of their specific complaints but the Court
willremember that, whereas theystarted offwith three so-called military
bases in their Memorials, which were Walvis Bay, Ohopoho and the
Regiment Windhoek, their later allegations in the Rejoinder became vcry
wide. Then it was contended, in their Reply, at IV, pages 563-564,that
there was general militaryactivity throughout the whole of the Territory
and that South West Africa must be regarded as in itself being a military
base-the whole of the Ten-itory.
The PRESIDENT I:rould you give a specific reference where that is
stated?
Rlr. MULLERA : t pages 563-564of the Reply (IV). There it was con-
various matters and then at page 564 it was çtated-aph which referç to
". ..at worst, where the Territory itself and its 'U'hite'inhabitants
have become armed and CO-ordinatedto the extent thattheTemtory
has been transformed into a 'military base...".
Now, with respect, MI- President, we will argue later that these allega-
tions refeback to reports of certain Committees and other organs of the
United Nations and we will demonstrate how those reports were in-
fluenced by statements, of the nature that I have just referred to, of a
pctitioner, relative to conditions in South West Africa.
The PRESIDENT M: r. Gross. have you the references to hvhich Mr.
Muller is refemng?
hlr. GROSSY : es1 do, Sir, and-may I continue?
The PRESIDENT Y:es.
Mr. GROSS1:was about to object to the reading of a clause in a para-
graph without the reference to the context, Mr. President, and1think
that ifthe clause is to be read into the record at this point, perhaps the
paragraph might also be read into the record.
The PRESIDENT T:hat is the paragraph from the Rejoinder?
The PREÇIDENTF:rom the Rcply?should have said.
Mr. GROSSY : es, Sir, from which counsel has quoted a clause.
Mr. MULLER : have already indicated that, in their pleadings, they584 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
do not mention this matter, the atomic centre, or alleged atomic centre,
at Tsumeb. Al1 1 do indicate is that they made an allegation that as a
result of-and 1 can read the whole of the clause-general military
intelligence throughout the whole area, the whole of South West Africa
must be regarded as a military base.
The PRESIDENT\:hy do you not read the whole clause, Mr. Xuller?
Then we will know what it is al1about.
Mr. MULLER It starts offat IV,page 563, and after quoting, 1 think,
three reçolutions of the General Assernbly of the United Nations, the
passage çtarts as fo1lows:
"Consequently, Applicants contend that Respondent's admitted
practice of maintaining an indeterminate number of Ianding çtrips
which may be, and are, used by military aircraft of the South
African Air Force, coupled with the increasing build-up of military
strength in Walvis 13sy,taken together with the apparently ever-
increasing amount of military activityby cadet corps and 'Cornman-
do units' in the schools, cornmunities and countryside of the Terri-
tory, joined with Kegiment Windhoek, have created a situation
where there isthe equivalent of a seiies of military bases or potential
rnilitary bases in the Territory, or, at worst, where the Territory
itself and its 'imite' inhabitants have become armed and co-ordi-
nated to the estent that the Territory has been transformed into a
'military base'.. ."
The PRESIDEXT: 1 think the evidence had better be taken, &Ir.Gross.
Your objection will be noted and the relevance of the evidence and the
weight of the evidence willbedetermined by the Court inits deliberations.
Mr. GROSS:Thank >?OU,hlr. President.
Mr. MULLER :eneral Marshall, did you then go to the Tsumeb area?
General MARSHAL L :s,hlr.President, we went to the Tsumeb area.
lire Aew on a direct west-east line from Ohopoho, approximately 170
miles, as1 recall it. On that flight, we saw oother airstrip and that was
servicing the tourist home at the Etosha Pan game reserve. When we
got to Tsumeb, Ivecircled the general territory three timesto get an idea
where the building vas and also to get a general idea about whether it
was ossible toconceai anything in that territory that may escape the
eye. Pt is relativeiy Aat land. Therare srnall kopjec there but iir quite
barren country and we had no difficulty seeing this building on the out- I
side af the community bccause it isquite conspicuous. It is out there, very 1
close to a collection of Bantu farms and a few kraals.
We landed at the Tçurncb airstrip,ivhich içthe one good aiisirip that
1 ran into in South MTcstAfrica. It has a tarmac surface and it has an
apron. 1think it is owned by the American copper Company that operates
inTsumeb. The assistant to the magistrate took us out to this building.
We found it located just seven miles from the edge of town. The building
is unguarded. It is about roo yards off the main road. There is no fence
of any kind. There is no sentry there1 walked into the building and was
half~vay tllrough it beforeIraised anybody. The building was a three-
sided structure about the size and shape of an American ranch-house for
an oversized family. It has two wings, no basement; ail is in this one
storey. In one wing, Ifound, after we were joincd by the German tech-
nician, J. Jung, wtio is in charge of the place, that there are seven small
roorns, two of them not being larger than closet-size, and each one of WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 585
these rooms contains electronic instruments of varying kinds. Therc are
small instruments, standing no higher than a man, none of them are
"hot". The rooms were al1unlocked on that wing. We moved from roorn
to room. I was able to open the instruments at will, where there were
knobs, 1 could touch them, 1 observed the oscillations of the machines.
1 am not an expert in the electronics field, s1 had to take J. Jung's
word for their significance, what their function was. In the other wing,
we found a dark-room for the developing of niotion-picture film, with
three tanks and one drying area and thcy urere running film through it
at the timi: we were there. Beyond the dnrk-room there were three guest
rooms and then, on the base of the building, there wâs a large, airy
recreation roorn and a large library witfiout an)?books in it.
The PRESIBENT H:ow can pou have a library without any books in it,
General ?
General MARSHAL hLr. President, 1exaggerated slightly there. There
were 13 books but they lookedas if theyhad come fi-omthe last century
and had apparently been put there just to impress the visitors. He told
me that they would get some books intime.
The only fixtures outside were a swimrning pool-thatis, immediately
outside-a small swimrning pool about 6 feet by 16 feet that did not have
any water in it and a concrete rack for the servicofgmotor cars. Then,
a little more than a quarterofa mile away froni the building, werc four
towers, one of them, the tallest one, obviously being a radio-sending
towcr and the others were antennae. This was the Max Planck Institute
for Agroncimy of Lindau, Germany. It was one of 200 such establish-
ments that are fixed pretty well al1 around the world, according to
J. Jung.
1 he permanent personnel of that establishment consist of two German
technicians and four Bantu. The Bantu are given landscaping arid house-
keeping duties. The purpose of the stationas J.Jung tried to esplain it
to me, although Icould not understand rnany things that he said,was
the taking of beamings, sensings, from the atmosphere prirnarily for thc
purposes of pure science and secondly for long-range weather forecasting
over the next 30-day period for the use of aircraft and ships at sea.
The PREÇIDENT :liesc electronic instrumentswhich you described
before, are they,as you understand the position, connected with these
functions?
General NARSHALL H:c told me that this was their sole function.
The PRESIDENT D:id it look as if they had any military function?
General MARSHAL L :ne whatever. I asked liim why it was that the
dark-room was the only room that they kept locked and he said that it
was because the people in the neighbourhood were afraid of the other
rooms so there was no danger there, but he said that with the dark-room
there w7asalways a chance that they might go in and ruin the filat the
wrong time, so that was the reason why that was the only place they
kept secured.
The PRESIDENT 1:think you saicl that you \vent into the dark-room,
did you?
General ~IARSHAL :LYes, Mr. President.
Mr. ~,IULLER Can you, General Marshall, in your own opinion, state
whether this facilitys a nuclear reactor station or not?
General MARSHAL Ltis not.It could not possibly be.
Mr. MULLER: Gcnerally çpeaking, did you see 5nything in South5lS6 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
West Africa which you ivould regard as a rnilitarybaseor fortification?
General MARSHAL1 L :id not.
Mr. RIULLEI n:addition to the arrnaments which yau have described
in the hangar at Windhoek and in the administrative building at Wind-
hoek, did you see any other arrnaments in thewhole of the Territory of
South West Africa?
General MARSHAL Th:e only armaments 1 saw, apait from those at
Windhoek-and 1 am speaking of heavy weapons-were the hulls of
three Sherman tanks in the C.D.M. property, the diamond property at
Oranjemund. They had stripped them down and they were using the
motor mechanisms to run the elevator shaftsin some of the clearing
operations.
hlr. MULLER 1s thata private Company or not, operating at Oranje-
mund?
General MARSHAL :It is a privatCompany.
Mr. MULLER: NOW,1will read to you a portion from the Keply of the
Applicants at IV,pages 563-564. Mr. President, this is the portion 1had
read and 1would like just to read it again to the witness to put one spe-
cific question to him.
It is there stated, General Marshall, that :
"... Applicants contend that Respondent's admitted practice of
maintaining an indeterminate nurnber of landing strips lvhich map
be, and are, used by military aircraof the South African Air Force,
coupled with the increasing build-up of military strength in \Valvis
Bay, taken together with the apparently ever-increasing amount of
military activityby cadet corps and 'Commando units' in the
schoo~s,commünities and countryside of the Territory, joined with
Regiment Windhoek, have created a situation where there is the
equivalent of aseriesof military bases or potential military bases in
the Territory, or, at ~vorst,where the Territory itself and its 'IVhite'
inhabitants have become armed and CO-ordinated to the extent that
the Territory has been transformed intoa 'niilitarp base' within the
meaning and intent of the Covenant and the Mandate".
Now, having travelled throughout South West Africa and bearing in
mind that Walvis Bay, which iç referred to,in this document, is not part
of the Territory of South West Africa, what is your comment on this
allegation?
Mr. G~oss: Mr. President?
The PRESIDENT Y:es, Mr.Gross.
hfr.GROSS :he aIlegation referred to would, on thwitness's part, it
is submitted, cal1 for a legal conclusion. This sentence which has been
read, as counsel has brought out now, ends witli the clause "within the
meaning and intent of the Covenant and the Mandate", and it is sub-
mitted that the request to the witness in the formof the question put
would cal1for a le al conclusion in the forrn of a comment regarding this
statement in the deply.
The PRESIDENT hr. Muller,1think the objection is properly taken. It
is not for the witness to say whether this or that installation, or together,
were a military base or made the Territory a military base within the
meaning of the Mandate. The witness gives his expert testimony in
relation to facts seen. He is not entitled to express a legal conclusion.
That is a matter for the Court. WITNESSES AND EXPICIITS 587
Mr. MULLER: Mr. F'resident, may I then put my question differently,
without referenceto thisallegation, ijust askinghim ivhether ivhatever
he had seen in South West Africa indicated that there was any military
base, or whether the Territory,açsuch, constitutesa military base?
The PRESIDEKTI:n his opinion?
Mr. MUI.LER Y:es, in his opinion.
The PRE:SIDENO Tm: itting the words "within the meaning of"?
hlr. MULLER Y:es. Thank you, Mr. President. General Marshall, will
you indicate whether there iç anything which you saw in South West
Africa which you could regard as being a militt~rybase, or whether the
Territory as such is a military base, in your opinion?
General MARSHAL ML: answer is no. May 1 ndd that the Territory iç
leçs militarized and more under-armed than aiiy territory of its size I
have ever seen in the worId.
Rlr. MULLERM : r. President, that is my last question to the witness. I
thank the Court.
The PRESIDENT: filr. Gross.
Mr. GROSSM : r. President. General Marshall, in addressing questions
the record, Sir, that you are indeeaprecognized military authority and
widely read assuch in Ournative country.
1 should like to refer to one or two statements in your testimony so as
to refresh your recollection. You were asked during the proceedings
yesterday, 13 October, at page 577, supra, by counsel for Respondent,
Mr. Muller, this question:
"Do you consider that... you could assist the Court in expressing
an opinion relative tothe question as to whether a particular facility
is a miIitary base or not?"
and you ariswered on the same page "1 believe I can".
Today, Sir, according to my notes, you have, several tirnes in response
to questions put by counsel, stated both specifically and generally your
opinion as to whether a certain facility or installation is a military base
or isnot, and the same generaliy with respect to the Tenitoas a whole.
This is according to my notes.1s this a fair summary of your testimony
in this respec?
General MARSHALL It: is a fair summary.
Mr. G~oss: Now, as to the Rejoinder, VI, page 370,may 1askwhether
you have Iiad occasion to read the sections of the pleadings or any of
them with respect to thematter of the militarization or othenvise of the
Temtory?
General ~IAR~HAL Lh:ave read it but 1 do not have it witme and 1
would have to have my memory refreshed somewhat.
31r. GROSS 1:should be glad to do that, General Marshall. 1 do not
wishes to have a copy of the pleadings before him, if it pleases the Court,
1 would certainly have no objections.
The PREÇIDEXT:Weil, it might açsist, &Ir.Gross, andit map ais0 avoid
having to read lengthy excerpts.
Aïr. GROSSY : es, Sir. 1understand the adrnonition, Sir.
In the Rejoinder, VI, page 370,you will notice at the bottom of the
page, specifically in the context of discussioiiof the Regiment Windhoek,
the last sentence says: , SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
585
"The issue turns on thequestionwhether the cornplex of what has
been established and what is being done at the establishment con-
stitutes a military ba:eArticle4 does not introduce the agency or
command through which the establishment and activities are con-
ducted as a relevant factor at ail."
Now, of course 1will notask you questions which ~~~ ivolve a legal
judgment or conclusion or inference. However, 1 should like to ask you
two questions in relation to your expertise on this sentence.
First,the reference in the sentence "Article4does not introduce the
agency or command througlz which the establishrnent and activities are
conducted as a relevant factorat dl". You have testified as to your in-
spection (and 1 may Say tliisisthe first inspection of which the United
Nations will have heard and this information will be transmitted to
them), but with respect to your testimony with regard to the command
as a relevant factor,did you, inyour discussions with the command,
consider that relevant to your inspection trip?
General MARSHAL1L :id.
Mr. GKOSS: Thereforc you wrould Say, as a rnilitary expert, that the
agency or command through which the establishment and activities are
conducted is a relevant factor with respect to military capability?
General MARSHAL VL:ry definitely so.
Mr. Gnoss: Now, wjth respect to the begjnning of that sentence-and
this isa broader question-tlie issue turns on the question whether the
cornplex of what has been established and what is being done at the
establishment constitutes a military base. Calling your attention to the
expression "what is being done", that would, would it not, refer to what
is being done ata particular moment of tirne?
General MARSHA LPLrecisely so.
Mr.GROSS Therefore with respect to "what is bcing done" at a given
moment of time, would that, or would it not, fr'oa military point of
view, have relevance to what may be done at another point of timc?
General MARSHAL It:wo~ild.
Mr. Gnoss: Therefore pur tesiimony ~ith respect ta what you saw
being done, ifI may use the Respondent's espression, refers to thmo-
ment of your visit, or inspection, whichever you choose to cal1 it. That
is correct, is it not?
General MARSHALL T:hat is correct.
Mr. GROSS :OW,with respect to the more general question of the
military nature of a base or installation, or the non-military nature as
the case may be, would you accept as valid, from a rnilitary point of
view, the dictionary definition of a rnilitary or naval base which is cited
and quoted in the Respondent's pleadings in the Counter-Mernorial at
IV, page 50, which defines a rnilitarÿ base or naval base as follows:
"The locality on which a force relies for suppiies or from which it
initiates operation..."
Would you Say, Sir, that that is a tenable definition, or acceptable
definition, of rnilitary or naval base in terms of rnilitary expertise?.
General MARSHALL: No, 1 would Say it is a rnther narrow definit~on.
The definitions that have been submitted in thc case al1 addup pretty
much the same way in clifferent language, but that is an exceptionally
narrow definition.
Jlr.CROSS And, Sir,with respect to the furtlier comment or conclusion WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 99
drawn by the Respondent, in the same volume of the Counter-Mernorial,
at iV, page 50, 1read as follows:
"A common feature ofthese defiiiitions [and that, incidentally,
refers to the definitioninthe sever:tl dictionarics from ivhich the
quotatioiis were taken] is thata base is sornething ulilised by a
fo~ceor an army for the purposes ofoperationsor acampaign."
Do you regard that as an acceptable definition of a base?
General MARSHAL1L hink that is an acceptable definition, Mr. Presi-
dent.
Mr. G~oss: With respect, then, to the iiiterpretation of whnt or iç
not a military base, would it follow, Sir, tthe useto which it iput-
and first sliouIf say that the use to which it is put is a relevant factor:
you would clearly agree with that, \vould you not, Sir?
General MARSHAL 1L: ould.
Mr.G~oss: Would you Say, Sir, that the poteiitial use to whicmayt
be put is also arelevant factor in deterrnining its charncter?
General MARSHAL Iw:ould say, Mr. President, that this hvoulddepend
altogether on the circumstances. The potential use might be true in one
case and in another case not.
Mr. G~oss: My question simply was whether, from the standpoint of
military expertise, and analysis, as a recognized authority, Sir, whether
or not you consider the potential use of an installation is relevant to the
characterization or conclusion as to whetlier it is a military base or not.
General MARSHAL ILhas a certain relevancy, that is as as 1could
W.Mr. GROSS A:nd there again, would you agree,Sir,that the relevancy
involves (niayI cal1it) the temporal question wliat esists at a particular
point of time-woufd you aFee to that, Sir? 110I make rny question
clear, General Marshall? 1am not sure that Idid, Sir?
General MARSHAL1L :m afraid you do not. In other words you arc
saying that conditions may change and therefore this would be a con-
ditional factor with respect to judging whether or not a rnilitarbase
esists?
&Ir.G~oss:Well, 1 think that isa fair paraphraseof my question, Sir.
but in fairness to you, toclicit your expert opinion letme, if 1 may,
broaden the question.In respect of current military science or technology,
itistrue, is it not, Sir, that within a very short range of time-peraaps
matter of hours or days-the character ofan installatiomay be radically
changea?
General MARSHAL WL:thout a doubt, &Ir.President; that is true.
JIr.GROSSA :nd if it is inspected as of a given point of time, does this
then reflecl upon its potential usahility, in terrns of the languagbyused
the Kespondent, Sir?
General MARSHALA Li:President,it docs.
hlr.G~oss: As of that time?
General NARSHAL Lt:does.
AIr.GROSS :nd at that time only, Sir?
General MARSHALL It;does,but this same thing rnay bc said of any
tract of ground.
Mr. GROSS: Sir, may 1 ask sou when gou were invited to make this
inspection visit, was it, asu understood it, for the purpose of putting
yourself ina position so that you could submit to this honourable Court5g0 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
a first-hand, authentic andundoubtedIy correct factual statement con-
cerning what you saw, Sir, assresult of your inspection?
General MARSHAL L :. President, should1 çtate the circumstances
under whicli 1made the trip?
The PRESIDENT YOUare certainly invited to, so yomay.
General ARSHA HAL IL: ade my firsttrip with noparticular ideain
mind, except that 1got a cal1from my brother who wanted to know if I
would join him on a tripto South West Africa and South Africa; and
when that trip was completed 1 had no idea in mind that 1 would be
brought before this Courtas a witness. The change came about several
weeks aga when 1 received a letter asking if 1knew anything about Regi-
ment Windhoek and the situation at Ohopoho, and 1 wrote back and
said no, that1 had not seen these because when 1 was in South West
last1 had not been under any instructions or stricture as toIwshould
see and hotvI should spend my time.
1 was then asked, would1 be willing tgo to South West and look into
the situation ofRegirnent Windhoek, which, incidentaily, we have not
touched upon at aH, and dso go to Ohopoho, and 1replied that1 would.
And that is how1 happened to make the trip.
Mr. GROSS :realize that this is rather an obvious question, but would
you, Sir, feel that you were in a position to testify on this matter unless
you had made a careful survey and inspection of the facilities yourself?
GeneralMARSHAL1 Lwould not at al1be ready to do that.
Mr. GROSS : ow, Sir,and I address this question to you againas a
military expert, with regard to an objective of demilitarization,or
neutralization, of a territory, would you, in the light of what you have
testified or otherwise, regard supervisiasan essential elenlent in the
detemination of the potential rnilitary natureaogiven facility?
General MARSHAL LCornand supervision?
Mr.GROSS :upervision in iespect of any-1do not want to lead you
into a legal issue regarding the Mandate, 1 knowyou are not here as a
lawyer, Sir-but with regard to the necessity or otherwise of supervision
or inspection of a dernilitarizatiplan of any kind, let me take that
generally, would you regard supervision of compliance with an under-
taking of demilitarization as an essential prerequisite to theusSay,
assurance against use for military purposes?
The PRESIDENT M:r.Muller.
BIr. MULLER:\fTifh respect, Mr. President, my learned friend should
make clear what he means by demilitarization plan,before the witness
can in any way answer the question.
The PRESIDENT: Well, 1 suppose the witness will know something
about demilitarization,s to what isinvolvedin itand he will also know
something about what he understands by supervision.Ifyou clarify your
question as to what you meanby demilitarization, in relation, for example
to South West Africa-hom you would dernilitarize what he describes.
hlrGROSS :es, Sir1 am refemng, Sir,in my characterization, to the
so-called military clauseofthe Mandate, Article 4, second paragraph,
which y011have stated in your testimony you have read and and have
before you (during the proceedings yesterday). You aie famil1abelieve
you testified, with that clause: that is 1ham referring to.
GeneraIMARSHALL 1have it before me.
Mr.GROSS :nd specifically with reference todo not wish to engage
in a verbal exchange on this-my word "dernilitarization"would you WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 591
then transpose forrny word "demilitarization" t.hemilitary objectives of
that article, andonsider this purely in military terrns ?
The PRESIDENT: 1 do not know, Mr. Gross, whether he can do that,
because ifyou ask him to do that are you not asking hirn to form a Iegal
conclusion as to what the meaning of the Mandate is?
Mr. GROSS: NO,I am not, Sir. 1 am merely trying to avoid that by
confining this to military potentiathe potentid usability or usefulness
ofa given facility, in military termsand the c.onnection, if any, of in-
spection or supervision with regard tothat military question.That is the
purpose of my question, Sir. And 1 would likt:to invite you, General
A,iarshall,i1 may, to express your opinion, if you care to, with regarto
the relationship, if any, between inspection or si~pervisionof a provision
~vhichcalls for, or which prohibits, the installation of military or naval
bases or fortifications.
General MARSHALL M:r. I'resident, 1 cannot answer that question in
this form, 1really do not get it.
Blr. GROSS: i'au have testified that except for your persona1 visit of
inspection, if1may cal1it that, you would not have felt in a position to
state facts to this honourable Court or express an opinion as to whether
or not these identified facilities wese; or were ncit, military installations.
That is correct, is it not, Sir?
General MARSHALL That is correct.
Mr.GROSS : OWin that sense, and arising out of that testirnony, then,
1 wouId like to ask you, Sir,whether you would apply the same reasoning
to the matter oi inspection generally. Would you Say, Sir, that just as
you had to inspect in order to be able to verify facts and to report on
them to this horiourable Court, that it would be possible for anyone to
underst anclthe military nature or military potentiaof a facility without
some measure or capability of an inspection and. or supervision? Do you
understancl my question, Sir?
General MARSHAL Lget it now, Xr. President.1 would reply to that
that itisperfectly possible for neutralization to take place without there
being an accompanying inspection, but on the other hand, there can be
no guarantee that it has taken place unless there is an inspection.
Mr. GROSS:And would you Say, Sir, that in connection with disarma-
ment proposals, I do not mean to get too etieral about this,or de-
militarization proposals or agreements, wou fd you regard verification
and inspection iii principle as an important element of any such plans?
The PRE~IDENT:1syour question at large, Mr. Gross?
Nr. GROÇS:As large as I can make it, Mr. Pri:sident.
The PRESIDENT: 1 think you are making it very large,if Imay Say so;
we are getting back to Geneva, are we not?
Mr.GROSÇ: We are gettingback, Sir, 1hope, tri the basic question, 1f
may put it that way, of what is really necessary in order to achieve the
objective ofdemilitarization in any form.
Now, Sir, the witness has testified ia very generaI, broad way with
regard to whether a particular facility is or is not a military base,without
definitioncirspecification of ïvhat the wordmean to him. Iam now in,
I think, a more general sense, attempting to elicit from the witness his
expert opinion, if he has one, with respect to the relevance, if any, of
inspection or supervision with regard to the military nature or military
potential of a facility, Sir.
1 do not know, Sir, whether you have answerled my question or not,592 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
but 1 would like to renew it becausc 1 am not certain whether you have
given me an answer. Would you regard inspection as an essential or, let
me put it first, relevant element, in a pIan for disarmament, demilitari-
zation or neutralization?
General MARSHALL Relevant, certainly.
hlr.GROSS: NOW would youregard it as, in any degree at allimpor-
tant?
General MARSHALL Y:es, important.
Mr. GROSS: 1 think, Sir, that you have testified, have you not, that
under conditions of modern technology and modern military science,
heavy equipment-you have not mentioned heavy equipment, but I
think on thebasis of what you have testified-thatheavy equiprnent can
be moved rapidly in modern contemporary conditions. Would you agrep.
to that, Sir?
General MARSHAL :LWould agree readily-ÿes.
Mr. GROSS :nd with respect, for example, to landing strips or cleared
areas, you have nat been asked and questioned with respect to techno-
logy, for example, such as helicopters. You have testified in response to
the leading question that C47 or a Dakota might, with some difficulty,
make an approach and landing at this particular airstrip. Would you
describe, Sir, onthe basis of your military expertiseina very generaI
way, to the Court, as briefly as possible, the nature of the current military
technology with respect to helicopters or other methods of vertical en-
velopment ?
General MARSHALL I: the simplest terms, Rfr. Prcsident, if you have
a piece of flat ground anywhere on earth, thiscan be made a military
base if you want to strain the meaning of the term, because you can put
a helicopter down on apad of thatsizeand it can fight frorn that gound,
so there would be scarcely a biof South West Africa that could not be
thought of as a rniiitary basif one wants to argue that point of view.
Almost any piece of gound there will accommodate a helicopter.
Mr. GKOSSN : ew, Sir, youare aware, are you not, that this Mandate
was written and undertaken in r920?
General MARSHAL YL:s, 1 am well aware of it1 have written about
the Mandates.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. And now, military science and technology as it
has devcloped since 1920 has, hasitnot, changed the nature of militai
bases and fortifications as known and thought of 1920, 1sthat correct,
Sir?
GeneraI MARSHALL There have been changes and may I add that as1
read the Mandate, some of those changes were anticipated in the Ianguage
of theMandate.
Mr. Gitoss: And, Sir, you would agree, would you not, that new in-
stallationscan be created or movcd by speedy and perhaps-1 am not
making an allegation-but they could be moved by secret means through
the application of modern military science and technology? You would
agree with that, Sir?
General MARSHALL There is no question, >Ir.President, but that
military material can be moved at tenfold the speed today than was
possible when the Xandate was witten.
Mr. G~oss:Now, Sir, the allegations made in the Memorials which
were filecliApril1961 were made spccifically on information and belief
because of lack of inspection facilities. So with respect to allegntions made WITXESSES AND EXPERTS 593
in1961 ,ould you say that they are necessarily relevant to the situation
which you saw in Septembcr of this year?
General MARSHALL 1:would have to go back over the allegations,
but.. .
Rlr.GROSS :ut whatever they are, Sir, would you Say that they are
necessarily relevant to the situation, n...
General NARSHALL Iwould not soregard them?
hlr.G~oss: You would not so regard them.
General MARSHAL : Lo.
Mr. GROSÇ: Now, Sir, going back agaiii to the question of tirne as an
element, and the point of time as an element in determining the use-
fulness or use, or potential usefulnof afacilit?, would you say that you
can be confident of what the situation is today with respect to any of
the installations you saw in September?
General &IARSHAL Pardon me, but 1 really do not understand the
question.
Mr. GRC~ÇS 1:said, Sir, would you Say that you could state with assur-
ance to the honourable Court what the situation is as of today, this
moment, in the installations which yousaw in September.
General MARSHALI n:other words, am 1 certain thatthey could not
have been changed overnight?
Mr. GRC)ÇS f YOU put the question that way, yes, Sir. 1 will accept
that brief formulation.
General MARSHALL :o, 1 could not bc certain. To the limit possible
1 chccked through to find out by looking at muster rollç and looking at
duty rosters whether the data I waç getting from the South \+'est Com-
mand and from Regiment Windhoek was correct, and also by interview-
ing personnel, because whiIe1 find it possiblforone or two individuals
to fabncate a story, ifyou check al1 up and dom the line fabrication
becomes impossible. That is the reason that 1 had themuster there on
the Saturday. 1 wanted to check with N.C.Os., also to find out if there
was any difference in the story. Yes, the situat1ohave dcscribed could
change overnight, just asan ernergency may anse overnight. Inspection
is concerned only with what is seen at that time. An inspection does not
guarantee that the situation will be continued, but one does look for
fixes in such a situation to see whether this is the nom in the establish-
ment.
Mr. GROSS : ir, jusby way of illustration,and in no sense irnplying
fabrication or otherwise, for example, with respt:ct to the complement of
the staff at Regiment Windhoek, in the Counter-Memorial, IV, page 56,
which was filed in1963, it is stated, and I will read this one sentence:
"OriIy a small permanent force, administrative staff, consisting
of three officers and seven other ranks, is permanently stationed at
\Vindlioek."
Now, without inviting your comment as to whetiier this is a bigaosniall
staff, just as a matter of fact, Sir, in your testimony did you not Say
that when you met with the South \'est Africa Command at Windhoek
that you niet with 5 officers an15 other ranks?
General MARSHAL L :at is correct, Illr. President.
hlr.G~oss: Now this would, 1 suppose, would it not, Sir, indicate that
situations do change from time to tirne with respect to the nature of the
installations, or the number of perçonshere, without regard to whether
it is a minimal change or not?594 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
General MARSHAL Light, but 1 would like topoint out one area of
confusion here. I think that we are talking about two different things.
You are talking about Regiment Windhoek and 1 am talking about the
South West Cornmand, and these are not the same.
Mr. G~oss:1was talking, Sir, about the permanent force, administra-
tive command, and 1 understood you to say that you met with thern.
General ARSHA HA B ut:this is hardly concerned at al1with Regiment
\fTindhoek.
Mr.GROS: Well, what is the relationship, SiMy notes may be faulty
on this.
General MARSHALL S:uth West Command is from the standing
establishment, and ithas only an administrative relationship to Regirnent
Windhoek, and that is limited to simply rnaking sure of the personnel
programming-moving people to Regiment Windhoek and rnoving then]
out, and also issuing them equipment when they go to their homes. South
West Command is not an operational Command. In terms that we use in
the United Statesthis is a headquarters which isset up primarily for the
induction of personnel and for processing to get the young men of the
Territory into military service. They start monitoring them when they
are 17 years of age, then move them up for medical exarnination, and
then after they get their medical exarnination and go into training; from
that time on this headquarters has to keep track of these men.
For instance, ifa man goes to South Africa instead of staying in South
West. they still rnonitor that individual to make sure that hisfulfilling
his obligation, and their only relationship to Regiment Windhoek isin
this same capacity, just making sure that the individuals in there are
doing their duty, and making sure that theregjment gets itsnumbers,
and that it returns its equipment when the men have finished their
obligation. These rifles th1tsaw in their store-room were rifles that had
been brought in fram men who had finished their obligation, and they
wouid in turn be passed on to men who were being assigned to Regirnent
Windhoek. They would take their rifles with them to their homes, for
Regirnent Windhoek does not train in the Territory, and it does not train
under this headquarters.
hlr. GROSS :ust to avoid any possible confusion which 1 may have
engendered arising out of your testimony asto the nature of the South
West Africa Cornmand, it is stated in the Rejoinder, VI,at page 373:
'1
The said headquarters [this is in cannection with the adrninistra-
tive headquartersof Windhoek, 1believe], known asthe South \{'est
Africa Command, consists of a Permanent Force staff of three
officers and seven other ranks permanently stationed at Windhoek."
Just for the sake of clariis,this the group to which you referreinyour
testimony?
General MARSHAL L:at is thegroup to which Iam referring.
Mr. GROSS :onsisting, now, when you saw it, of5oficers and 15 other
ranks?
General MARSHAL Lve officersand 15 other ranks.
&Ir. GROSS: With regard to the Command structure aç distinguished
from the administrativestructure,did you in the course of your enquiries
and anaIysis and inspection look into the naturof the Command struc-
ture ofthe Regiment Windhoek, and to what higher echelons they report
in the line or chnin of cornniand?Would you state thatto the Court? .WITXESSES AKD EXPERTS 595
General MARSHALT Lh:e Regiment throughout the year is embodied
mainly in its Commander, its Adjutant andits Quarterrnaster; othenvise
the Regirnent does not meet at any time, because it is scattered through
the Territory; it is not based on V17indhoekreally, though some ofits
individualç live in Windhoek, but the law reqiiires that if a man lives
IO miles beyond the point at which he is to appear for temporary drill,
for periodic training,he need not comply, and the dispersai of the
Regiment makes it impossible for them to form cluringthe year, and they
get together for three weeks in surnrner, that is, two-thirds of the Regi-
ment, every year, goes to sumer camp in Bloemfontein and there takes
its training, andit is under South Africa Command, not under South
West Command.
officer,do you know?wordç, the Adjutant reports to what cornrnanding
General MARSHA LLhe person?
Air.G~oss: No, the rank, and the place in the table of organization.
General MARSHALL F:or administrative purposes, again where he is
dealing with personnel or equipment, he does deal with South West
Command, but where it is a matter of dealing with training, this is
scheduled from Army Headquarters,South Africa.
Mr. G~oss:In South Africa?
General MARSHA :LLes.
hlr. GROS: And on the basis of your observation and study in a
military operational sense-if you can answer this question-would
deployment of personnel, rnovement of logistical equipment, for exarnple
in case of emergency, be under the command and direction of South
Africa Headquarters?
General MARSHALT Lh:at would be under South Africa Headquarters.
Mr. G~oss: Would you then from a militas point of view regard
Kegiment Windhoek on the basis of its place1:: scherne as an adjunct
of South African military forces in any sense of the word?
General MARSHA LLefinitely so.
Mi. GROSSY :OUhave not testified, 1 think you have not been led by
counsel,in respect of Walvis Bay-am 1correct in that? Mynotes do not
shoiv that you have testified on that subject-amI wrong in that?
The PRESIDENT N:O,you are quite right.
General ARSHA HA MLL.:President1 went to Walvis Bay ...
The PRESIDENTY :OUwent to Walvis 13ay,but you did not testify
about it.
this mission,1told the authonties that 1 would go only provided 1wask
permitted to see what 1 pleased.
Mr. G~ctss:Since you have not testified witli respect to Walvis Bay
1 could not, I think, with propriety crossexamine you on this subject
tvhich you did riotopen up. 1 would, hotvever, in coiinection with the
South West Africa installationsor facilities as to which you have testified
andtheir rnilitary use, ask you,did you encounter in your inspections any
information with respect to whether aeroplanes, say jet planes,from
Walvis Bay overfly South West Africa on any missions?
The PRESIDENT "Overflp on missions" has a peculiar sense, Mr.
Gross ;"overfiy" alone is probably sufficient.
&Ir.GRCISS O:verfly, yes, S1rRas thinking of reconnaissance or any
other missions ofa military nature, including training.5g6 SOUTH WEST AFKICA
General MARSHAL L:o,1 did not run into it, and 1saw none.
Mr. G~oss: As a military analyst could you say whether, on the basis
of your own visit to iiralvis Bay. planes taking off from the airfield there
would have to either fiy overthe water or over South IlTestAfrica?
General MARSHALLT :hep would certainly be going around by Robin
Hood's barn if they didn't travel over South West.
$Ir. GROSS: One other question,with regard to the followingconclusion
orstatement by the Respondent in tlie Counter-Mernorial, IV, page 50-
do you have tliat? The bottom third of the page, following the sentence
which 1 have already read, beginning "A conimon feature of these
definitions" and so forth, on which you have cornmented. The sentence
to \.hich 1should now like to cal1your attention reads as follows:
"Consequently, failing the purpose of utilization for operations or
a carnpaign, actual or prospective, by a force or an army, a place
cannot be snid to be maintained as a rniIitary or naval base."
Would you regard that as an accurateor fair description or characterizn-
tion of a militaryor naval base?
General MARSHALL J:would consider that a fair definition, yes.
Jlr. GROSS:The question of whether such an installation or facility.
present or as itmight be revised, is properlyto bc calied a militaryor
naval base depends, does it, onthe "purpose of utilization for operations
ora carnpaign, actual or prospective, by a force or an army"? That is
what you Say you agee with as a fair characterization of adefinition of
a militaryor naval base?
General MARSHAL1 I.would agree, yes.
hlr. GROSS:In your answer to the questions led by counsel as to
whether or not a particular installation orfacility is a mifitary or naval
base, when you teçtified that itwas not in the cases in point w-asthat
anssver based inany respect upon your analysis or understanding of ïvhat
a prospective use might be?
General ~~TAHSHA It w:as based rather upon the nature of these in-
sta1Iations and of the force-1eveIs in the force-relationships.For one
thing, you cannot think of Regiment Windhoek as a field force, because
it is not in action, it is not a standing force, it has no being except when
it isin training. In Our country speaking of reservists as a field force
would be considered a misnomer-1 think it would anywhere in the
world-that they constitute a field force simply because they have a
military obligation. There is no Comrnand structure over Regiment
i17indhoek, and Kegiment Windhoek does not have the material outside
of its rifles that would enable it to campaign even if it werea standing
force. One of the sources of confusion, 1 believe,in this discussion is in
including automatically naval bases and military bases in the same con-
text, because a naval base is a very definite object, it is not just any
naval installation,it isa port or a harbour facility.
The PRESIDEST YOUcannot change a naval base very much overnight.
General MARSHALLN : o, Sir, its a hard establishment, prepared for
one purpose-to service, supplyand support the fleet or somepart there-
of, whether it be the Bavy Air Arm or submarines, but it is a hard
establishment, and 1cannot conceive of a sentence in which a naval base
is referredoas such and a military base is spoken of and this latter would
refer tany kind of camp, post or station. It seems tme that this would
be absurd, that there must be a consideration of equivalents here, that WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 597
a rnilitary base is an establishment that is set up and prepared man-
powerwise and as to equipment to support forces in the field.
Mr. GROSS :iTouldyou say that, as distinguished from a nava1 base,
a military base is, as you have,1 believe, already testified, readily sus-
ceptible of very speedy conversion, expansion or change of character?
General ~IARSHALL Y:es, indeed1 would, Mr. Gross, though now 1
would not say that this is true of a naval base, nor is it true of a military
base if we consider the history of the time when tliis hlandate was written,
when they must have been thinking about the rise of air power and there-
fore definetl it as a military base rather than strictlArmy base.One
cannot rnake a real air base overnight; one niay make an airfielda
landing strip, butas for being a main base, no.
Mr. G~oss: A main base, Sir?
General MARSHALA L:main base in the sençe that it would be able to
field air power in tlieway that a naval brise ca.n float and support the
Aeet.
Mr. GROSS :%th respect to the character of a military base in con-
temporary conditions, would the question of whether a particular in-
stallation or facility,itesists froni time to tinic, or mbe converted,
taking it whichever way you wish, dues the character depend upon the
terrain which it occupies, the nature of the country in wbich it exists
and, i1 may add, the potentiai use to which iniay be put? Are al1these
relevant factors in thecvent?
General MARSHAL TL: a certain estent this is true, for one cannot
imagine a ~nilitary base-a base supporting field forces-being put other
than at thc hub of a road network. For esample; it would invariably be
so placed at the point where it cuuld cover the greatest radius of opera-
tion. 1 waç just going to make another point, aclverting to what 1said a
minute ago, that the other mord in this prohibition that interests me is
the ivord "fortification", becausthis means only one thing: itdoes not
mean any arrned placc; whereas the word "fort" has corne to have a
loose meanin in our time this is not true of "fortification"Fortifica-
tien" mearts 5where man-made jvorks have strengthened the position";
you can have IOO soldiers on a hi11and have them armed-it would be
an armed position, but it ~vouldnot bea fortification until they had done
sorne work to strengthen it ; and so fortification is a very, very definite
thing.
Mr. GIZOSSW : ould you Say,cipropos of your testimony just now with
regard to fortification, that from yoiir experience, letSay in Korca or
elsewhere, concrete emplacements or fortifications can be erected very
speedily ?
General MARSHALL Pes, even IO yards oftrench is a fortification.
RIr.G~oss: If 1mal' revert for just one moment to the question which
1 asked you earlier and to which 1do not recall having hat-la response.
With respect to the 12espondent1scomment or conclusion or definition,
whatever it may be, on page 50 of theCounter-Mernorial, IV, where one
of the elernents which is referretois actual utilization for operations or
a campaigii. actual or prospe~ti\~1,believe 1asked you whether in yoür
investigations and enquiries you had had occasion to discuss with anr
oficials the general question of prospective use of facilities?
hrr. President, 1 believe tlie pending question,if my mcmory serves
me, is rnyquestion to General Marshall with respect to whether or not
during the course of his visit did yoii, Sir, have discussions or consul-5g8 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
tations with any Government officials concerning any prospective
utilization of these installations or facilities?
General MARSHAL :Ly Government officials,does the question include
armyofficers?
Mr. GROSSX :ilitary or civiiian oficials of the Government.
General A~ARSHAL NL:civilianofficials; I talked to the cornmanden.
filr. GROSSA:t what level, Sir?
General IV~ARSHAL AL:the South West Cornrnand level, but none in
Pretoria.
Mr. GROSS:SO,there was no occasion, 1 take it, was there, Sir,for you
to discuss or enquire into the questioof contingency planning for the
possible utilization of any facilities in South West Africa?
General MARSHALL M:r. Presidenta visiting officerfrom abroad does
not enquire into this kind of matter when in foreign territory, it is
indiscreet. J
Mr. GROSSN :o further questions, hlr. President.
The PRESIDENTD :oes any Aiernber of the Court desire to ask the
General any questions? If not, 1 urould Iike to ask you one or two ques-
tions.
General MARSHALL Y:es, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT:1 think you said that you had written upon the
Mandate-written some articles upon the Mandate: had you?
General MARSHALL: Not any articles, &Ir.President; two years ago 1
wrote for the American Heritase Company A History of World Wnr 1,
and that got me into the Mandate,
The PRESIDEST:Oh, 1see.
1am interested in your description of fortifications; 1do not wish to
cGross thatifthere are establisheIObyards of bunkers, that would bea
fortification.
General MARSHALL :Yes, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT: 1s that the meaning you would Say is to be given to
the word fortificatioas itwas used in I~ZI?
General MARSHALL 1:would give it that meaning.
The PREÇIDENTS :Othat a foxholeis afortification.
General MARSHALL A: foxhole would be a fortification. Any man-made
work, no matter what it is...
The PRESIDENTN : Omatter what it is?
Generai MARSHALL C:orrect, Sir; is afortification.
The PRESIDENTS : Othat if troopç operating aver training ground dig
themselves foxholes, for the purpose of obscuring their party, then that
is a fortification?
General MARSHALL: Yes, indeed, Mr. President, they have fortified
the ground, and these must be regarded as "fortifications" even if they
were used within a training frame.
The PRESIDENT I:see;and in the context of when you speak about
naval and military bases or fortificationsa military man, do you Say
2hatwould be the meaning in 1921of the word fortification?
General MARSHAL :Right, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT:Can you quote any authority at aIl, apart frorn your
own view, that a fortification would include anyman-made bunker or
foxhole?
General MARSHALL A:ny authority? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 599
The PKESI'DEKY Te:s.
General MARSHALT Lh:e French-Englisli Military Dictionary and the
dictionary which is in use in our services.
The PRESIDENT IV:hat is the name of the dictionary?
General MARSHALL 1:think it is Jensons.
The PRESIDEN TJensons Bictionaxy?
General MARSHAL1Lt:hink that is it.
The PRESIDEWT h:e military dictionary?
General MARSHALT L:e name has been @\,en in the paper that 1
wrote, and 1 do not have access to that at this moment.
The PRESIDENTW : ell, may 1 just follow it a little bit further?
If, for example, you have troinstrainingcadets in training-16-year
olds, to take for esample-and they are part of the military establish-
ment where they are being compulsorily trained, and in their training
ground they throw up bunkers, trenches IO or rg yards long, and then
they are esposed to the weather: once having been dug, it rernains a
fortification? Itaifortification and remains a fortification for al1time
thereafteri
General MARSHAL Lr:.President, it would reinaifortification, even
if it is on an old battlefield, iintil it has finally eroded.
The PRESIDENT U:ntil it has finally eroded? So,when you seethroiigh-
out the world even old gun-pits which coulclnbe used at al1for modern
military purposes, would you still call them, in modern terrns, fortifica-
tions?
General MARSHAL3 L1:1.President, you would call them fortifications,
antique itis true, but they would still be fortifications.
The PRESIDESTE :ven if you could not use them at al1for military
purposes?
General MARSHAL :Kight.
The PRESIDENT1 :see, thatisal1I wantcd to ask you, Sir.
hlr.MULLER:lerNOfurther questions, Mr. President.
The PRESIDEWT i: ouldyou caiiyour next witness, please.
GeneraI, you are released from further attendance; 1do not think you
will require him, will you, Nr. Muller?
MT. MULLER :O,blr. nesident.
The next witness will be Professor Manning, and, with the permission
of the Court, Dr. Rabie will introduce the witness and put certain
questions to him.
Mr. RABIE:Mr. President, Professor Manniiig'sevidence willrelate to
Applicants' Submissions Nos. 3and 4.
In July, MT.President, the Deputy-Registrar andthe Applicants were
informed that Professor Maiining's evidence would be directed to the
followingpoints-1 quote from the letter which was sent at the tirne:
"(1) Group relations generally.
(2) The advisability of applying measun:s of differentiation be-
tween population groups in countries such asSouth West
Africa."
Subsequently, Mr. President, the Respondent's Agents sent a further
letter to the Applicants, in which Professor Manning's evidence was set
out more specifically, and 1 propose to read from a copy of that letter,
which was dated II October 1g6j: SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"Points to which evidence willbe directed:
On the basis of Professor Manning's studies and reflectioin the
sphere of InternationaI Relations, he will testify as to the importance
of the sociological phenornenon of gronp personality, particularly in
the case ofethnic and tribal groups, and particularly in relation to
promotion of the well-being of suckgroups and their members.
He will illustrate the theme with reference to practical examples
pertaining,irzteaEaa to the Polish nation, British GuianMauritius,
India, Pakistan, the former Ruanda-Urundi, Cyprus, Canada, Bel-
gium, the United Kingdom, and South Africa. Against this back-
ground he will consider the effects of the application of a suggested
rule of non-differentiation in South iirest Africa."
It was then stated that in the course of his testirnony Profesçor
Manning would refer to certain publications, which are set out in the
letter.
The PRE~~DENh Tf:r. Rabie, sou now cal1 professorManning?
Mr. RABIE : es, may 1 now introduce Professor Manning?
The PI~ESIDENT M:r. Gross?
Uefore you cal1 Professor Manning, Mr. Gross desires to be heard.
Mr. Gaoss: Thank you, Mr. President.
Very briefly, Sir, the Applicants would wish respectfully to reaffirrn
objections, both specific and general, previously made with respect to
testimony given or proffered on the basis of a formulation similar to that
now stated in the letter just read inttherecord:
"Against this background he [that is, the witness] will consider
the effects of the applicatioof a suggested rule of non-differentia-
tion in South IVest Africa."
Sir, if may just refer, by citation without comment ordiscussion, to
the verbatim records of21 June, X, pages 103-108 and 122-124;22 June
1965,X, pages131-13 and r38-139;and finally7 July,X, pages 335-336,
34r-342, and pages 348-349. Sir,in conclusion to the generalobjections
already laidand which arereaffirmed respectfully, thApplicants WOU ld
contend that the confusion and the ambiguity towhich thcy referred in
the previous formulations, is now cornpounded by reference to a "sug-
pested rule of non-differentiationwhich is a rneaninpless ~hrase in the
App~icantslundersta ondcongp;ehension, and therefvorethe objectionis
reaffirmed and saecificallmade a~dicable to this formulation asweli. Sir.
The PKESIDE~T: air. Gross, thcagenerd objection is noted, and yoür
specific objection is noted.
The practice 1 think the Court will follow i3 that which we have
followed before, and tvhen the question is put to which you specifically
desire to take objection, whicti involves the submissions ~vhichyou have
made to the Court, it can then be taken and the Court can consider it,
but until the question is put, sometimes the prol)lems which are foreseen
do not really occur; so, the question will arise only when objection is
taken to a specific question.
Mr. CROSS : r. President, may 1 say, Sir, with respect. that because
of the very ambiguity of the expression used as the point to which the
evidence ivill bdirected, the Applicaiits'complete inability to com-
prehend what is intended b it, it will be difficult, if not impossible, for
the Applicants toraise spe2c'objections with respect to specific questions WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 601
because wt: do not know what any of those questions willbe actually
directed to, since this formulation is not understood hus.
Therefore, with the President's permission,I should Iike, on behalf of
the Applicants, to state and reserve a generaI objection to a11questions
and all answers which may be asked on this foundation, rcserving also
the right,with the President's permission, to raise specific objections, if
it is guessed or estimated that a specific question is directed any more
than any other against this foundation, Sir.
The PRESIDENTW : hatever right you are seeking to protect, Mr. Gross,
will be protectedby your general objection and, as 1have indicated be-
fore, in thi: case of evidence which is given by any witness, the Court
itself, there is any question of relevancy, will have need to determiit
when it proceeds with its deliberations. So, liaving taken a general
objection, you may rest assured that thatcourse will be followed. How-
ever, the normalway in which an objection is taken to the evidence oa
witnessiswhen a question is put.If it is then taken that il is not relevant
to any issue in the case, at that tirne the objection ought to be taken and
it ought ncit simply to be dependent upon a general objection.
Mr. G~oss: Then, if staccato objections are filed then 1 hope the
honourable Court will . ..
The PRESIDENT :y al1means, you have complete right,Mr. Gross,to
object to any question,ifyou think that the question is not relevant to
any issue before the Court. Mr. Rabie.
Alr. RABIE: Mr. President, may 1 ask that the witriess make first the
declarations provided for in the Rules of Court-thais, both as a witness
and as an expert.
The PRESIDENT :et the declarations bemadc.
Mr. MANNING :In my capacity as a witness 1 solemnly declare upon
my honour and conscience that 1 will spcak the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth. In rny capacity as an expert 1 solemnly
declare upon my honour and conscience that niy statement will be in
accordance with my sincere belief.
Mr. RABIE: Profcssor Manning, your full names are Charles Anthony
UToodwardManning, is that correct?
Mr. ~IANNING : Quite correct.
Mr. RABIE:Are you a South African?
Mr. MAXNINGY : es,1am a South African. 1 \vas born of British parents
in what was then the Cape Colony. 1 have since then lost my British
nationality and so now 1 am simply an English-speaking citizen of the
Republic ofSouth Africa.
Mr. RABIE: LVheredo you live, Professor Manning?
Mr. MAN'IINGA : t present1 live in England.1 came from South Africa
in 1914 and since then1 have had fourjobs, two of which were in Switzer-
land and two of tlieminEngland. 1have ]lot yet returneto South Africa.
Mr. RABIE: You have been back to South ilfrica on various visits?
Mr. MANNING 1:have been back nine times, four times in the last
15 years for periods of two to three rnonths atatime.
Mr. RABIE: YOUstated that you werc an Engljsh-speaking citizen of
the Republic-do you attach any special significance to the fact that you
are English-speaking?
Mr. MANKINGY : es, hlr. President, 1 woulds;iythat itis of interest
that 1 was formerIy a warm admirer OFGeneral Smuts.
The PRESIDENT:1don't think this really mstters, does it, Mr. Rabie?602 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
In what way does this go to the qualification of I"rofessorManning as an
expert witness?
hlr. RABIE:Rlr. President, only in this way, it seeIns to me that the
witness urould like to state just where he stands and how he sees things.
Politics are involved in this and he would like to Say that, although he is
English-speaking, things have happened in South Africa which have had
an influence on hirn, and he is going to tell the Cou...
The I'KES~DEXITd:on't think ÿou can tell us at the moment precisely
what he was about to tell the Court.
Mr. RABIE:Mr. President, he is also going to refer to conditions in
South Africa as part of his thesis and 1 think the witness rather thinks
that i-iewould like to Say this to make that more clear to the Court.
The PRESIDENT 1:do not think it is admissible at all, Ab. Rabie. The
question whether he hasa bias one way or the other doesnot arise at al1
unless he is cross-examined along those Iines by Mr. Gross. The only
evidence that you can direct yourself to at the moment is his expertise
an&Ir.RABIE:dAScethe Court pieases, 1shaii proceed to the next question.
Professor Manning, will you tel the Court what academic training you
have had?
Mr.MANNING Be:fore the ~irit World War, throughout which 1served
in the British Army, 1 had one year at what is now the University of
Cape Town. At Oxford after the war, I studied philosophy and law and
1attained the degree of Bachelor of Arts in what is called Greats, Liferae
Humanioresin the officia1designation. I took a degree in jurispmdence
and 1took the degree of Bachelor of CivilLaw.1 was called to the Bar in
1922 and later, for a time, I held a Fellowship at Harvard University
where I laid the basis for my subsequent thinking on the problems of the
organization of peace and the prevention of war.
Mr. KABIË:Professor Manning, have you published anything on the
topics to which you have referred?
hlr. RIANXING O:ver the years 1 have published some articles and in
1962 a book The Nature ofInternationalSociety.
Mr.RABIET :hat is thenarne of the book?
Mr.MANXIKG Y:es.
Mr. RABIE:IVould you tell the Court what posts you have held in the
course of your career?
Mr. MANNING O:n completion of my studies at Oxford, I served for
a short while in the diplornatic division of the International Labour
Officein Geneva and then for a iittle ovayear 1was Persona1 Assistant
to the Secretary-General of the League of Nations. Then, for over six
years, I taught legalsubjects inOxford, rnostly Roman Iaw,jurisprudence
and international law and then, for more than32 years, 1held the Chair
of International Relations in the University of London. I should just add
that itis not correct, issaid in the Respondent's Rejoinder, that 1 was
Oxford of Professor Brierly, 1did deliver courses of lectures in his stead,
and on the second of these occasions,1 was formally gazetted Deputy
Professor of International Law, but 1 never held the Chair, so there has
been some confusion there.
blr.RABIE:What did your teaching of international relations involve?
Mr.RIANNISG 1:must try to be brief with this, hlr.President. From the
outset, 1 saw mp subject not so much as a branch of history or of con- WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 603
ventional political science but ratlier as a species of political sociology,
focused, as it was, on human society in its widest dimension, its world-
\ide dimension. 1saw it in principlc and in fact as a kind of sociology of
the social universe, a cosmology of the social universe perhaps.
Nr. RABIE: Could you explain that a little further, please?
Mr. MANXING: Perhaps 1 can best reply to that question by recalling
my continuing interest in international law, the very existence of which
seerned to me to presuppose the idea of a society of sovereign States. In
this idea theris,at least for tliplomatic purposes, a society of States,and
it was with the way of life in general, as opposed to its specifically legal
aspects, in that society, that the subject of international law relations
wodd, 1 judged, be suitably concernecl. Basic, therefore, to the study
of international relations, was the understanding of the characteristics of
that society, or as rather prefer to cal1it tliat quusisociety, of sovereign
States.It is the milieu in which international happenings occur. Among
other matters coming within the purview of the subject are the workings
of international institutions, including,for example, the mandate and
trusteeship systems, and such developments in the domestic affairs of
States as have an impact upon international issues.
Mr. RAB~E :rofessor Manning, in what ways do you consider yourself
to have fuithered the development of your subject?
Mr. ~~ANNING: One of my first concerns was to stress the importance
of an expIoratory approach to the interprctation of social phenomena as
opposed to an ideological one. Later, 1 came increasingly to insist upon
the need for an essentially philosophical treatment of certain sortsof
issue as, for instance, the basis and nature of the binding force of Iaw,
questions of international morality, and the elucidation ofconcepts such
as group personality, nationhood, world opinion, self-determination,
sovereignt? and theiike.
1also foiind myself emphasizing the relevance to an understanding of
politics and especially perhaps of international politicsofwhat is some-
times termed the sociology of knowledge, though 1 prefer to cal itthe
sociology of appreciation. Idrew attention in this regard to what 1 have
called the iron law of partisanship, rneaning thereby, the influence of
men's political sympathies upon what they see and what they say and,
in general, 1 found itnecessary to stress the role of prejudice, of fashion
and of public and private expediencp in the deterrnining of what men
believe and what they disbelieve of what they read and what they hear.
The purpose of it al1is, 1suppose, to make a mail a connoisseur as far as
possible of what are sometirnes called world affairs. Necessary to a
connoisseurship of international situations is the clear perception of the
alternative courses effectively open to politicaldecision makers at any
given point. Dispassionate enquiry into the nature of these alternatives
demand an everlasting awarencss of the differencebetween two angles of
mental vision, the angle on the one hand of the detached investigator and
the angle of theman of political affiliations on the other. Appreciation of
this distinctioncan be helpful.
Mr. GROSS:hlr. President.
The PRESIDENT R lr.Gross.
Rlr. GROSS:Forgive the interruption, Sir, but if the witness isbeing
sought to be qualified as an expert on al1of the concepts, doctrines, etc.,
to which he has now been refemng, Sir, tliere would, I think, be an ob-
jection in respect of this statement, ifit is intended as a basis for qualifi-604 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
tion as an expert to testily with regard to the general range of matters
he has covered. If this isa statement of persona1 credo and if the Court
lvishes to hear it on that basis obviously, Sir, the Applicants would have
no objection to that.
The YRESIDEN It:is a Iittle unusual, the way which you are quaii-
fying Professor Manning as an expert. It is perfcctly permissible for hirn
to indicate that lie has pursued the course of the study and persona1
investigation in respect of these particular matters, bso far it has very
largely been an expression of his own philosophical approach to certain
matters of world affairs.
Mr. RABIE: With respect, Blr. President, opinions will be expressed in
the light ofthese studies.Rly next question will be whether the nom, if
1 rnay cal1 it that, andI \vil1quotefrom the Applicants' o\r7nrepliesso
that there can be no misunderstanding of what is intended, whether his
subject has any relevance to the issue raised in the formulation of that
norm, and Professor Nanning will then Saywhether he regards his çubject
as being relevant to that issue.
The PRESIDENT You may, as 1 have said, qiialify him by indicating
the evtent of his expert knowledge, but that is something different,
hlr. Rabie, from the witness stating some of the things that he believes
in, or sorne of the things ~vhich have interested him, unless he has
pursued his studies, which 1 presume he has. It can be covered very
simply by a question to Professor Manning: have these things of which
he has spoken been the subject of special study on his behalf, and,ifso,
what has been the nature of that study. Why do you not put a question
such as that to ProfessorManning?
$Ir. RABIE: tVith respect, Mr. President, he has said what sort of thing
he has studied-what his studieshave taught him. 1 now propose to ask
him whether his studieshave any relevance to this norm.
The PRESIDEST V ery well, the question of the value of his testimony
as an expert will depend upon the extent to which you qualify him and
you must take your own course, Illr. Rabie.
Mr.RABIE: As the Court pleases.
Mr. GROSSh :lr.President, the Applicants specifically object to any
question basecl upon the reference to "this norrn" or any similar language
characterizing the purpose of the questions.
The PRESIIIENIT :hink we must first wait for the question, Mr. Gross.
hlr. RABIE: Mr. Manning, my question to you is thiç: It has been
contended in this case that there exists an interniitional norm or standard
whichprohibits theofficial-and now 1quote from theReply,IV, pageqg3-
allotment of "rights, duties, privilegorburdens on the basis of member-
ship ina group, cIass or race rather than on the basis of individual merit,
capacity or potential". Now, 1would like you to say whether your subject
has any relevance to this issue-to the issue as defined?
The PRESIDEXT Y:es, hIr. Gross?
Bk. G~oss: Mr. President, objection on grounds stated previously,
specifically reaffirmed to this question, to which there is added the
further objection that the question calls for a conclusiof law, an inter-
pretation of the Applicants' pleadings and, even in that context, the legal
argument of the Applicants is not fairly set forth in the Respondent's
out-of-context surnmarization.
The PRESIDENT: Mr. Gross, the quotation, if my rnemory serves me
correctly,is tnken frorn your Reply, IV, page 493. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 605
Mr. G~oss:Mr. Rabie quoted one sentence.
The PRESIDENT: Well, after a11,the value of the question wilI be deter-
mined bythe Court. If >IrRabie does quote out of context, or not fully,
then the value of the evidence will be judged accordingly, but Ido not
see that Jlr. Rabie can be prevented from putting the question to the
witness as to whether any words-using words taken directly from the
KepIy-have been the subject of a study of the witness.
hfr.GROSÇ: It is the Applicants' respectful sul~missionthat the quota-
tion of this sentence does not fairly reflect the context and legal basis of
the Applicants' arguments. That is one added baçis for my objection,Sir.
The PRESIDENT T:hat wiiibe judged by the Court.
Mr. GROÇS :hank you, Sir.
The PRESIDENT C:ontinue, Mr. Rabie.
Mr. RABIE: Professor Manning, would pou say whether your subject
has any relevance to the issues so defined?
$Ir.MANNING Y es, Ah-.President, I consider especially relevant my
analysis of the long-debated problem, and, for the çociologist, the crucial
problem, of the nature of groups and the group personality.
hfr.KABIE :vould you be a littlc more spccific, if you can, please?
JZr.MANNING T:he first thing1 would Say about group personality is
that it mat.ters. Group personality matters. It is a tremendously impor-
tant element in that reality which it is the political çociologist's particulsr
business to explore. The next thing is tIiat, while group personality is
sufficientlyreal to be tremendously important, the question is in what
sense isit real?It isto this question that 1 try to give an answer. Man's
membership of various groups is, of course, s marter of common observa-
tion and everpday Ianguage takes it for granted. A group is, of course,
composed of its individual members. It is thus cihiiman aggregate. The
question is whether it iç that and nothing rnore? And ifit be something
more, in what sense is it more? The answer 1woiild offcr to this question
of the nature of the group, and of group personality, hinges upon a
distinction 1have learnt to draw betwecn three stages, or levels, in man's
apprehençion of social phenomena.
In stage one, he uncntically accepts, without reflecting upon just what
is involved, the imputing of personality to an eridless variety ofgroups,
from the family and the tribe to the nation and even to "the world".
This stage 1 am disposed to label the stage of primitive impressionism
because that is how 1 think things tend to strikc us at first.
Next, cornes the attitude which insists that the on1y perçons are in-
dividuaI human beings. Adolescent scepticism is what 1cal1 this,or naive
realism.
The third stage is one which 1think of aç that of sociological maturity,
or sophisticated realism. It is the stage whicli comes to tems with
sociological reality, in other words, with the way in which rnatters are
viewed in practice in social life. This stage perceives that while the family,
or the committee, as distinct from its sevcral members, is indeed not
objectively a person, it nonetheless is a person in effect. For socially
important purposes, it is as if the family, or the sovereign people, or the
electorate, were indeed a person, so, though it is riot in the literal sense of
the terrn a person, not, that is, a person in point of fact, it may yet be a
person in point oftheory, whether it be legal thetiry, or constitutional, or
diplornatic theory or, what 1woiild like to refer toas socially prevalent
social theory, theory prevalent in society about the nature of society.606 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Perhaps the term "theory" in this context may be misleading for, as 1
have said, the personality of the group is a sociological realitÿ. What 1
am talking of is the body of largely unverbalized, largelyunarticulsted
assumptions in the light and on the baçiç of which the affairs of com-
munity life are ordinarily conducted. One finds in this sphere certain
socially indispensable notions, whose value lies in their social utility
irrespective of their literal truthfor it is noterely by a fiction of the
larvthat a college,forinstance, may besaid to bea person. Man'spropen-
sity for the personifying of abstractions, organizations, institutions and
groups is, 1 think, more deeply rooted in him than the mere conventions
of the latv.
The attribution of personality to the group is thus socially prevalent,
the group being indeed, ior important purposes, socialIy viewed as a
person. Society sees the individual, and he sees and feelshimself, not just
as one of a number, but as part of awhole, asocial whole. The individual
becomes aware of himseIf as participating in the collectiveselfhood ofhis
family, his tribe, his fraternity. has his image of himself, his image of
the group, or groups, to which be belongs, and his image of his social
cosmos as a whole. His image of his group is held by him in comrnon
with those others who, with him, are the members of that group. Their
collective seIf-image is a part of what gives them their cohesion, their
solidarity, as a group.
MT. RABIE:MT. Manning, is what you are saying now true of every
group ?
hlr. MANNINGI:t is true, but not everywhere and always in equal
measure. The cohesion, the solidanty, of the group, be it the family,
or the nation, is a matter of more or less; a question of degree, depending
on the circumstances of the moment and of the particular situation.
In 1948,for example, when Mr. Winston Churchill called upon Europe
to arise, had Europe been collectively a self, she might perhaps have
done so.
Mr. RABIE: Mr. Manning, 1 really interrupted you when 1put my last
question to you. You were suggesting that group personality had a
bearing on the issue to which 1 have referred. Will you continue with
that, gesse?
Mr. G~oss: Mr. President, 1object to the question for reasons already
mentioned and, if 1 rnay,in order to preserve the Applicants' rights, Sir,
with your permission, also confess to a dilemma as to how best to
preserve the Applicants' rights. 1feel it is not cleas the Applicants as
to what issue, to what point, thisstatement, or this type of testimony is
really directed. Therefore, it is difficult to know whether toreserve rights
of possible cross-examination or whether to object, on grounds of rele-
vance, in connection with statements made. References are made that
group personality matters, that group personality is important. The
Applicants consider and conceive that group personality matters and
that itis important, Ifthervitnessiçaddressinghirnself and his testimony
to a justification of the policy of apartheid with respect to South West
Africa, which is the issue drawn in these proceeclings, with al1respect, it
would be helpful to the Applicants to know that that isthe case, and
therefore determination could be made, subject to the Court's permission,
as to what should be reserved by way of objection and what should be
reserved for cross-examination, if any, Sir.
The PRRSIDENT :l1 1 can say to you, again, at the moment, Mr. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS b07
Gross, is, that if you object to what is being said now, then the objection
must be mled upon in the sense that the Court inust indicate to you the
course it will pursue.
It seems to me thatwhat isabout totake place in thewitness'sevidence
is that it is about to be directed to the norm, upon which you have
directed a great deal of your argument to the Court, and, reading the
statement which was contained in the letter addressed to you, aAgent
for the Applicants, the course which Respondent is now about to engage
upon iç to consider the norm inrelation to the welfare of the people of
South West Africa, and it seems to me that the tlirectiofithe evidence
is designed to establish that if such a norm urere applied it would be
inconsistent with the welfare, the social progress and the developmenof
the people of South West Afnca. That seems to me to be the direction
tvhich the evidence is taking.
Mr.G~oss: Mr. President, thank you, Sir. At the risk of repetition, and
subject to your indulgence, the nom for wvhichthe Applicants actually
contend isnot praperly characterizedas asuggested rule ofnon-differen-
tiation. The Applicantç believe in differentiation,and they believe in
group personality. The norm for which we contend, Sir, and to which this
evidence apparently is not being directed, is our alternative contention
that an international rule does exist which prohibits officia1discrimina-
tion.
Ifthe witiiessis attcmpting by his testimony to support officia1dis-
crimination on a basis of race, the Applicants would like to knoïv that
mith clarity, Sir, if it is possible.
The PRESIDENT W:ell, 1 think we will have to be a little patient1
understand the reason why you take objection, Mr. Gross, but whatever
the norm is which you are contending for, the Coiirt will be able to deter-
mine that. And if the evidence does not direct itself to that norm, then
the evidence may be quite worthless, so at the moment ive must wait ta
see to what extent the evidenceisconnected up wviththe nom which the
Applicants have put before the Court.
Mr. G~oss: Thank you, Sir. Any objection is rioted, is it, Sir?
The PRESIDENT O:h, by al1means, and whatever rights you have will
be protected, hlr. Gross.
Air.RABIB:If the Court pleases. Professor Manning, 5vi:ilylou continue
with what you have been saying with regard to group personality.
llr.MANNING 1think you asked me whether it had any bearing on the
issue to which you had referred. Yes, 1 thinkitbas . ..
The PRESIDENT Can I ask Professor Manning this question, it may
clarify it.
Professor Manning, have you read the lieply, at IV, page 493, where
there is set out a norm by the Applicants in full?
Mr. I\~ASNING 1:believe 1 have,1 have not the page with me now.
The PRESIDEN T:ell, 1think perhaps it might be shown to the witneçs
so that there can be no doubt about it; and ask the witnessifwhat he 1s
about to Say is directed to that particular norm, not to any particular
part of itat themoment.
Just take your time and read it, Professor.
hlr.MANNING Pa:ge 4937
The PRESIDENT Th:at is right, pag493; it's at the top ofthe pagon
the left-hand side.
hIr.GROSS M:r. President, may itbe respectfully suggested that page606 SOUTH WEST AAFRICA
493 begins with an incomplete sentence and it might be fairer to the
witness, Sir,ifitisagreeable to the President, that he start reading from
page 492, where the context actually begins, to the conclusion on
page 493?
The PRESIUENT:Would you commence at the bottom of page 492,
Professor, and read it through until the end of the first main paragraph,
I think, on page 493. That is correct, isit not, Mr.Gross?
Mr.GROSS A:ctually, Sir, it is the third sentence on pa492 and then
down.There arethree asterisks and then begins the context in which this
statement appears.
hlr.MANNING W:ell,1 understand it, Mr. President.
The PIZESIDENTY : OUhave read it?
JIr. MAXNING : 1had read it some time ago.
The PRESIDES t:is just being brought to your notice at the moment,
Professor, so as to Iay the foundation for the question which Air. Rabie
will now ask you. Having read that, is what you areabout to sap directed
to the norm as stated in what you have read?
Air. ~~ANNING I:believe it to be, Ah. President.
The PRESIDEKT :17ell,that isthe best you cm do at the mornelit, I
expect.
Bir. GROSS:Excuse me, Sir, for the repcated interruption, but would it
be permissible, and perhaps necessary, for the witness also to state wheth-
er he has studied the Oral Proceedings, which are of extreme importance,
in the Applicants' respectful submission, and the development and ex-
planation of the legal analpsis in issue here, Sir.
The PRESIDENT:Mr. Gross, I should hope that the fact that he had
not would not disqualify him from being an expert. If every expert had
to read al1that has taken place in this cahe would have to take a couple
of years off, 1 think.
&Ir.RABIE: AIr. President, may I make my position clear. With
respect, thewitness's evidence is bejng directed toa certainpoint; ifour
understanding of what the norm or standard is is wrong, the Court will
obviously know how to jüdge the evidence. Until such tirne, Mr. Presi-
dent, as we arecompletely agreed as to precisely whatmy learned friend's
norm is,1 would submit, with the greatest respect, that we are entitled
to lead our witness on the Applicants' caseaswe understand it to be. We,
with respect, have little doubt as to what it meaiis: my learned friend,
on the other çide, cloesnot agree, but, Mr. President, inmy submission,
that does not disentitle us from leading the wit.ness on the Applicants'
case as ive understand it to be.
The PRESIDESTY : es, 3Ir. Gross.
>Ir. G~oss: Mr. President,itis utterly irrelevant what the Respondent
thinks. Thc Respondent is not testifying, hfr. President. It is a question
of what the witness understands as tothe points to which his testimony is
directed. The basis of our objection, Sir, does not relatto the Respon-
dent's understanding or misunderstanding of our contention: that would
be before the Court and has been placed and willundoubtedly be further
discussed, but the question does nat arise as it is expressed by the
Respondent's counsel. It is not the Respondent's understanding or mis-
understanding, it is whether the witness knows what he is directing his
testirnony towards, Sir.
The PRESIDBNT:Rlr. Gross, rny recolIection is that in the transcripts
which are numbered from 31 to 36, on more than one occasion you WITXESSES AND EXPICIITS 609
indicated to the Court that the norm and or standards that you were
relying upon were stated atIV, page 493 of your Reply. That is said more
than once. That is what you have stated inyour argument. Now, on my
recollection of it1think that it is quite sufficient to show to the witness
what is stated on page493 to make the evidence admissible, because it is
based upon precisely the norrn as stated by pou, more than once, over a
period of about fivc days in those transcriptç.
The evidence will be admitted.
Mr. RABIE: M'il1YOU continue pleaçe, Professor Manning.
Rlr. MANNING:In this case, hlr. Presideiit, o1ieis concerned with the
importanct: or unirnportancc of ethnic groups, and within them of tribal
groups, as well as with the idea of the advancecl nation, and the idea of
the people which is not yet able to stand by itself. It rnakes a difference,
and this not merely in philosophical analysis but in administrative
practice and in constitutional planning, whether one thinks of the
individual as the only reality, or, of the group as equally real, or whether
one is prepared to accommodate and embrace within one's social picture
both the ~irimordial reality of the individual and'the social reality, or:
qzmsi rcality, of the group: for you find two cornpeting dispositions or
tendencies, the one stressing. the other seeking to minimize, the differ-
ences between various ethnic groups-the onc accepting and paying
respect tothe diversityof cultures within the confinesof a given territory ;
the other tendi~lg to disregard the multiplicitv of lesser communities
within the totalitp of a country as a whole.
On the one hand, there will be those who think of the advanced nation
asbeing jnst a plurality of advanced individuals, and a less advanced
people aç just a collectio~i of individuals who ;ire individually notyet
able to stand by themselves. That, of course, is what 1 refer to as "ado-
lescent scepticism". Others will think of the nation and the people as
social wholes, and will understand the descriptions "advanced" and "less
advanced" as attachir-ig to those social wholcs and only in an indirect
and derivative sort of way to the individual members.
Some will think of the right of self-determination as residing in the
nation as an entity in itself. Others,as something to be claimed and
esercised by the individual members of the nation. Rut not even this .
latter school of thought, mho conceive of self-determination as being an
individual's right, will be heard to interpret the expression "a self-
governing people" as meaning a multiplicityai individuals, eachof whom
governs hirnself. For the institutionsandpractices of self-government are
those not of the individiinl but of the people ansocial whole. The "self"
Iicre in question is a collective self: the relevant selfhood is a potential
nationhood.
Mr. RABIE: Professor Manning, urhat, ifany, importance is involved
in the fact that personality in the sense you havc indicated is ascribed to
an ethnic group?
&Ir.GROSS : bjection, Mr. President, on the grounds previously stated.
Thc PRESIDENT:The objection is noted, hlr. Grass.
Mr. MAKNING : think the big point about personality is that no tw~
personalitics are identical. Personalitics are not interchangeable. They
arc not even commensurable. For every personality is unique. Perçons
are in no sense to be thought of or treated as fungible things; so conceiving
of groups ;is perçons involves çeeing them as ifthey were each one an
individual and poçsessed of an irreplaceable individuality. No two 61o SOUTH WEST AFRICA
nations are in al1respects alike; neither are any two tribes, nor any two
ethnic groups. This means that if peoples are to be able to stand by
themselves in the modern worId, it may well be that different sorts of
assistance wilbe needed by each, and it maybe that it is through differ-
ent sets of institutions that they will bbetled to self-awareness, self-
esteem, self-fulfilment, and a capacity for self-maintenance and self-
assertion.
Mr. RABIE: Profeçsor Manning, can you give examples from modern
history to illustratewhatyou have been saying.
Mr. GROSS O:bjection, hlr. President, on the grounds previously stated.
The PRESIDLNT Objection noted.
Mr. MANNING M:ine, Mr. President, is inno sense a historian's ex-
pertise. 1have no academic qualificatioin history, but there are certain
situationsin the world involving relations between groups and peoples
which are matters of fairly cornmon knowledge, and in view of the
bearing which they have on the subject-matter under discussion 1have
given thought to them. 1 therefore feel justified in referring to them as
illustration of and support for what 1have been saying.
My contention is that it can be confirmed from history, for anyone
anxious to comp~ehend and to make sense of the development of events
in the field of human CO-operationand conflict, that collective selfhood is
no mere administrative fiction, but partakes of that kind of quasi-reality
which the political sociologist cannot afford to ignore.
We may not believe in a volksseelin the çoul of a nation, but often
itis asif a nation had, indeed, a soul. Had the British people not been
possessed of something very like a soul, it is doubtful if in the crisis of
1940 they could so confidently have been called upon to pursue the
struggle, "if necessary alone". And the British are not peculiaWhat
nation, 1asked myself, mould admit that it lacks a soul. I3e thaas it
may, the nation,1 maintain,has a collective "self". Nationhood is a form
of collective selfhood. One thinks of the Polish nation, which was deprived
by the Third Partition in1795of thelaçtterritorial syrnbol of its nation-
hood, yet it remained emotionally and spiritually self-aware under the
inspiration ofa shared coIlective self-image, until on the ruins of three
. empires, Poland returned in 191s to themap as a united and sovereign
State.
hlr.RABIE:Mr. Alanning,isevery country or population ofa country
collectively "a self" in your vielv?
Mr. G~oss:Objection on the grounds previously stated.
The PRESIDZNT W:hat is the meaning of that question, then, Mr.
Rabie? 1do not follow it myself. We may as wellknow what you mean.
Mr. RABIE: Mr. President, with respectit means whether every group
of people necessarilyhas çuch an image or a pcrsonality as the witness
has spoken of.
The PRESIDENT 1:the Professor qualified to express that view on his
expertise?
Mr. RABIE: iirith respect, yes, Mr. President. from his study of inter-
national affairs and how people react, 1would subrnit that he is entitled
to express his opinion.
The PRESIDENT P roceed, Mr. Rabie, that will be a matter for the
Court to judge.
Mr. RABIE: As the Court pIeases.
Mr. MANNING If:the question concernç a country as such,1 think 1 SVITNESSES AND EXPERTS 611
can ansu7er it, Mr. President. In point of diplomatic theoIywouId Say
that it can be said that, for some purposes at lest, every country, that
is every State of which diplomatictheory has cognizance is, in principle,
a collective "self". But for sociology the'positiori is less clear-cut. Under
certain conditions, ihas been said, the only possible form of government
is some kind of oligarchy, as for instance when the people are deeply
divided by racial,ethnic or caste differencIsthink there is truth in that.
Sometimes again, peace and order may be maintained among anumber
of collective selfhoods through the mechanism of the one-party State. Or
again, there may be government by some external power, such as an
imperial, ot colonial, or quasi-colonialist authonty. It is when a colonial
authority makes ready to withdraw that the question arises: Who hence-
forth shall rule? What shall be the constitutional architecture of to-
morrow's new independent State? Current exampleç of what I bave in
mind are British Guiana and Mauritius. In both of these territories one
finds the CO-existenceof two strongly differentiated communities, being
in British Guiana the rural East Indian and the urban Negro comrnuni-
ties, and in Mauritius the Hindu-Ied working-i:lass majority, and the
general population represented by the Parti Mauricien. In both cases
this CO-existence preçents the prospect of a struggle for ascendancy,
whether at the conference table in the negotiationof independence, or
subsequently in the working of a constitution which leaves this issue
undetermined.
In the case of Mauritius itappears that it isthe Hindu community
which has iiow prevailed. In the words of the LondonTimes ,5 Septem-
ber, even the many safeguards that have been mitten into the new
Constitution,leave the general population ata disadvantage ifthe Hindu
Party does not show quite remarkable humanity and restraint. 1 have
the quotation here :
"The Parti Mauricien have won a record number of minority
safeguards ... Only time will show if paper safeguards will protect
the minorities from the economic discrimination which they allege
would follow the rule of a mainly Hindu Party. In the long run,
minorities aiiywhere get a fair deal only if the majority which elects
and controls the government ishumane and restrained."
The PRESIDENT :rofessor, could you tell the Courtwho are the two
main ethnil: groups in Mauritius.
Mr. MANNING T here is on the one hand an Indian majority of some
66 per cent.,1 believe, and the rest are rather a composite community,
many of them middle-class, propertied, people, make up what is called
the generai population.
The PRESIDENT B:ut what ethnic groups are they? Do you know any-
thing about Mauritius itself?
Mr. MAKNING 1:am not sure whetl-ier one would cal1 them ethnic
groups, but there are categories. There are English, there are French,
there are Chinese, 1believe, and they make up what feels itself to be a
community as opposed to the majority comniunity in a "welthey"
situation."We" the general population, "they" the Indian majority.
The PR ES ID EN I'^hat particular case the gerieral population is made
up of a nurnber of different groupsSmall groups some of them.
Mr. MANNING I would think so-yes, Mr.President. But you have the
"we/theyH situation. There is not a common "\veJ'~vhichembraces the
whole population of the island.612 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. G~oss: Blr. President, it appears from thc letter which has been
cited by counsel into the record, that, if 1 may put it this way, with
respect, that the hoiiourable Court is about to be lcd on a wide tour of
a discussion analysis of agonized social tensions and cultural and racial
problems. The question, therefore, which 1 raise iç in addition to the
general objections already made, as wellasthe specific ones with respect
to the formulation, the ground, the foundation to which this witness's
testiniony isbeingdirected and for which itis beingproffered, and is the
question of relevance of, and the reason for, the Respondent's apparent
contention that it is relevant for the witness to circle the globe with
problems of social agony and tension, which apparently is contemplated
in terms of the letter which has been put before the Court.
The PRESIDENT hlr. Rabie, the Court: will adjourn shortlI.think it
is necessary for you to harness Professor Manning's evidence more
directly to the norm which you have quotcd from IV, page 493, of the
Reyly. It does not present the Applicants with a proper opportunity to
object to the relevanccof evidence when you simply give a very general
question and then, in effect, permit the Professor to engage in a long
presentation of views, a greatdeal of which is based upon the views of
other people that he lias read.o between now and tomorrow 1 would be
grateful if you would seek to put more direct questions to Professor
Manning in relation to the specific matter of the norm.
Mr. RABIE: Professor Manning, at the adjournment yesterday you
had referred to British Cuiana and Mauritius. My ncxt question to you
is tliis: do you Say that when there is more thanone ethnic group, each
with its own sense of identity, in a particular country, one must neces-
sarily and always have diiferential arrangements?
hlr.MAXNING 1: ould Say not necessarilp.
The PRESIDEST 1s that the question?
Nr. RABIE:Yes, hlr. President.
Mr. GROS S Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT hr. Gross.
Mr. G~oss:Excuse me, I did not understand that. that was the ques-
tion, butnow that1 understand itis, may 1note the objection on grounds
previously siated?
The PRESIDENT Y:es, certainly. Did you wnnt to develop the objection
at the moment, Mr. Gross?
Mr. GROSS :ir, the objection is that thfoundation upon which the
testimony is laid, and in this specific context, with respect to this ,ques-
tion, the doubts concerning the relevance of the question to, the issues
framed, the ambiguity which is implicit in the cluestion in terms of its
relationship to any issue drawn by the Applicants, in view of the fact
that "differentiation" as sucisnot in issueand tliiswould seem to the
Applicants to be a specific illustration, justifythe general objection
which has been previously made and noted.
The PRESIDENT Nr. Rabie, you first drew the attentionof Professor
Manning to what appcars on IV, page 493 of tlie Reply cornmencing
from the bottom of page 492; then, from there on, the witness was in
effectllowed to take his own course, togivethe indication of his studies
and his general viewsupon the question of groups. 1s it not possible to WlTNESSES AND EXI'ERTS G13
get back again to the norm as stated at page 493 of the Reply, ask hirn
in relation to that particular norm the necessary cluestions to base his
opinion, and then for him to express the reasons why he reaches that
opinion? \Vhat you are doing is sirnply saying "iVell, last time when we
finished you were speaking about this-now, will you 'ust go on?"-
kind of thing. But the correct way to present evidence O /an expert, ifI
may be forgiven for saying so, is, normally, first to ask his opinion in
relation to a particular issue which is in dispute,and then seek his reasons,
1sthisnot possible with this witness? 1drew attention to that yesterday,
but no attention appears to have been givcn to it overnight.
$Ir. RABIE: 31r. President, with respect,we take the Applicants' case
to be that there is to be no differentiatiJIy lertrned friend said yester-
day that tlley believed indifferentiation-1 forget his exact words, but
that was the import of it. \Ire do not understand tlieir norm to be that,
and what the uvitnessis trying to Say, hlr. Presiclent1 understand him,
is that when you look at what has happened in various countriesone will
observe that differences make it necessary to differentiate, and the
examples to urhich he has referred are cases in which there have been
difficultieç because of differences between vanous groups: and what 1am
trying to get from him is to refer to countries where differences have
either led to differentiation or wherc, in his view, there ought to be
differential measures.
The PRESIDEKT :hat 1 understand, Mr. Rabie, biit if you look at
page 493 it would appear, that is al1 1 need say ;it the moment, that the
norm upon which the Applicants rely and which they stated they reIied
upon during the course of the Oral Proceedingç, particularly referred to in
the transcr~pt and to which I drew attention yesterday; they anchored
themselves, if 1may use that term, upon the norm as expressed at page
493-that, they said, is the norm. Ifyou prescnt evidence in respect of
some other norm, or if you misconstrue the norm which the Applicants
are relying upon, then that is a matter which is foryou alone to determine.
It is difficult for a court at thisstage, befoitproceeds to deliberation,
to Say certain evidence is quite irrelevant, but if you misconceive the
norm which is relied upon by the AppIicants, then whatever the conse-
quences are is a matter entirely for yourself. Th;it ial11 need to Say to
you.
$Ir. RABIE:BIr.President, after having deaIt with somemore exampleç
1 am going to take the witness to South \l%st Africa and ask him what he
knows about it,the different groups there, and then having done that he
will proceed to Say what in his view would be the effects if one were to
apply this suggested norm.
The PREÇIDENT :hat may of course be directljf tied up uith the norm
as stated at page 493 of the Reply. hlr. Gross, poiir objection is noted
and, as 1 indicated yesterday, mhatever your rights are they are pro-
tected.
&Ir. G~oss: Thank 3701.1Sir.
The PRESIDEN:TProceed, Rlr. Rabie.
hIr. RABIE: Mr. Fresident, are you permitting ine toletthe witness Say
what he wishes about these examples before wc get to South M'est?
The PRESIDENT You just ask hirn the questions, Mr. Rabie.
Mr. RABIE:Yes, Sir. Professor Manning, will you be bnef about this,
and just say what you wanted to say about the other examples to u~hich
1 refer?614 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
hlr.~~AXNIXG: Iwould Say not necessarily, but in some cases it may
be necessary; one rnay simply Say itis alivaysa possibility that where
there is more than one ethnic group, differential arrangements will be
required. Each situation dernands its own analysis. So long as an extemai
authority retains responsibility for an area wherein CO-exista plurality
of self-hoods, these may continue together in comparative peace. So it
was in British India untilin 1947, when the decision wss announced in
London that power would be transferred at a date not latei than June
1948; then it was that it was found necessary not simply to think in
terms of safe uards but to envisage the creatiori not of one new State
but two. In K uanda-Urundi too, as is well known, it was the United
Nations itself that decideduponpartitioastheindispensableconcornitant
of independence. A single territory while under Belgian mandate, the
area was now divided into the two States of Rwanda and Burundi. The
question arises whether even so they went far enough. In the case of
Cyprus it is evident that since the almost complete withdrawal of British
sovereignty the formula has not yet been discovered for ensuring
a peaceful CO-existenceof the Greek and Turkish sections of the popula-
tion.
Rlr.RABIE: Professor Manning, could you give us an example, or what
you considec to be an example, of what may happen when sufficient
recognition is not given in constitutional arrangementsto the existence
of different cthnicgroups in a country?
Mr. MANNING I:here the population of a country is a single people
with a single, all-inclusive self-hood and a single collective self-image,
there is naturally no problem. The difficulties anse when within the
arnbit of a single polity there are included one or more less dynarnic
collective self-hoods whose presence and potentialities are not sufficiently
allowed for inthe given constitutional scheme. Exarnples of this are not
hard to find, and they ali provide an object-lesson for the political
sociologist,1may Say, In Canada, for instance, where the constitution
refiects no positive recognition of distinct and irrepressible self-hood
within the compass of the projected all-Canadian nationhood, there is
now at work a Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism.
According to its recently published preliminary report Quebec as a
whole is showing avery clear determination to achieve "liberation". The
report cites a French-Canadian lawyer who declared (p. 99) that
"When we French-Canadians speak of equality we do not rnean civil
rights at al],we mean collective national rights"; and 1 have other
quotations in the same vcin from that report. Here is an example of a
collective self-hood inadequately allowed for in the constitutionalsystem,
and so confronting contemporary statesmanship with a challenge.
&.Ir. ABTE : ou refer to Canada as an example-are there any others
you wish to mention?
Mr. MANNIN:G Iwould like to cite briefly three other cases, each in its
way, to me, very instructive. In BeIgium, under the Constitution of
1831, the two communities of the Flemings and the Walloons were
grouped together into one. In particular the self-hood of the Flemings
seems since then to have proved increasingly unassimilable. At this
moment there is under consideration a proposed revision of the Belgian
Constitution in such a sense as to require the support of two-thirds of
the Deputies frorn each linguistic group for the passage of any new
legislationseen by either group as capable of affecting the balance as F\'IT?;ESSES AKD EXPERTS 615
between them of the present constitutional structure. This matter is
referred to in a recent report of a Belgian commission, Senate Commission
Report No. 278 dated 30 March 1965.
In the United Kingdom again experience has given proof of what may
happen wlvlienan unaçsimilable, lesser collective self-hood is sought to
be retained without special recognition within an othenvise sufficiently
hornogeneous national community. At a time when the differences
between Scots and WeIsh and English had dwindled to the dimensions
of a kind of family joke, the collective self-hootl of the Irish so asserted
itself that in the end,after bloodshed, the British and Irish peoples came
to a parting of the ways. One may wonder whether under sociologically
more appropriate constitutional arrangements this outcome might not
have been averted.
There is a further case, Mr. President, that 1feel warranted in refemng
to, as belonging nithin my own experience, and so entitling me to claim
some understanding of what this problem 1 have been discussing can
mean. In South Africa,too, where we have the English and Afrikaans-
speaking communities standing very near to each other in standards of
civilization, manner of living and so forth, Our attempt since 1910 to
build a nation has been affected by thepresence of at least one collective
selfllood not envisaged in the original plan-I refer to the Afrikaner
people. There have been, at times, considerable strains and stresses,
sometimes affecting one group, sornetimes the other. Although progress
is being made along the road of nation building, it has takena long time
and we art: not at the end of the road yet. The essential point, however,
as 1 see itBlr.I'resident, is that the enterprise was initiated by the two
groups working together. It was not something prescribed for them from
outside. And this, inmy view, isa major reason ïvhy weare already so far
along the road to full success in our undertaking.
Mr. RABIEN : OEVP ,rofessor Manning, in the light of what you have
South \frest Afnca of the Applicants' suggested nom to ïvhich webility in
referred before but,before,doing that, will you first indicate to the Court
on what factual basis you intend to proceed asfar as SouthWest Africa iç
concemed?
Mr. MANNING 1:ought perhaps to begin by saying that 1do not clairn
first-hand knowledge or expertise about details of conditions in South
West Africa. But 1have read a fair amount about the Territory including
the descriptions in the Respondent's Counter-Memorial and in the
Odendaal Commission report of the composition of the population of
South West Afnca. 1 assume the correctness of these descriptions for
the purposeç of the views 1 am about to express. The Territory would
appear to me to be a veritable continent in miniature, inhabited, by a
diversity of peoples not in general yet able tostand by themselves in the
world. Evi:n so, they are, I would gather, fully conscious each of its own
distinctness from the others. Individuals in general do very well know of
what group theyare a part. 1do not assume that the group consciousness
of these several cornmunities is as yet in the nature of a national con-
sciousness. In some cases it may well be. For instance, with the Ovambo.
But that is not anecessary part of my theme. My concern is simply with
the diversity of these ethnic groups and the unmistakably separate
identity oE each.
Mr. RABIE: Now, Professor Manning, 1 now ask you what, in your616 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
opinion, would be the effects of the application of tliis norm in South
West Africa?
Alr.MANKISGI: would likc to look at this matter from two reIated,
but independent, points of view. The first concerns the present, and the
conditions for the development towards full maturity of the various
ethnic groups; the second concerns the future, and the desirability of
ensuring to the various peoples, as they reach the necessary stage of
theirdevelopaent, the fuIIest opportunity to make their own independent
choices in respect of their own political future.
Mr. RABIE: NOW,what do you Say about the yresent-would you first
deal with that please?
Mr. MANNING H;ad there been in South \Vest Africa an ethnically
homogeneous population, al1at a more or less identical level ofdevelop-
ment, 1can conceive that the application of a rule of non-differentiation
in the regulation of their lives might well have been propitious.
Mr. GROÇSM : rPresiden t,the relerence tothe "rule ofnon-djfferentia-
tion", with respect, Sir, is counter to what is unclerçtood to bethe point
to which the evidence is directed, as has been clarified by counsel-the
point is simply noted to avoid confusion and to make it unnecessary to
cross-examine on this point.
The PRESIDENT 1:appreciate that, Alr. Cross, but whether you cross-
examine or not is a matter for your own choice. The Court expresses no
view. Mr. Rabie, the words "norm of non-differentiation and non-
discrimination" sometimes did not appear to be, at least to me, clear;
whether it meant group differentiation or whether it mean the differentia-
tion between individuals or whether it meant n combination of both,
and then finally, it appeared for the first time, defined aIV, page493,
of the Reply. 1s it not important that in seeking to make Professor
Manning's evidence as an expert rclcvarit, you avoid the mere use of that
phrase unless it means precisely what is stated at page 493) If Professor
Manning says: when 1use that term 1have in mind the definition given
at page 493, well, that then jstied clcnrlyto the norm as so stated. If
you simply leave it at large then much will depend upon the details of
his evidence, whether it is relevant to the norm stated at page 493-do 1
rnake myself clear?
hlr. KABIE Y:es, hlr. President. 1have taken the Witnessso far to refer
chiefly in any event to differentiation bet~r~éendifferent ethnic groups.
He willlater anstver the questionon differentiation between IndividuaIs.
The PRESIDEST:ire11 then proceed, Mr. Rabie.
>Ir. ~BIE: li1l you proceed please, Professor ÀIanning?
$Ir. J~A~NIKG i'hat 1 cannot subscribe to, %Ir.President, is the
applicability of such a rule where one is dealing not just with one com-
munity but with several together. The concept of non-differentiation is
to me the concept of non-recognition, non-recognition,that is, of relevant
al1 the peoples alikc might perhaps be administra-
differences. To treat
tively quite convenient, once you had decided whose needs and aspira-
tions were to be taken as typical of the needs and aspirations of all;
once you llad decidcd, that is, whcthcr to treat the IVhites asthey were
Bushrnen or the Bushinen as if they were Whites or both as if they were
neithcr. But 1 find it hard to believe that it would prove conducive to tlie
speedy development and greater well-being and progress of all. My
difficulty about the suggested rule is much the same difliculty a1 would
fcel about any other essentially ideological or doctrinaire approach to WITXESSES AXD EXPERTS
617
this probIem of promotirig the well-beiiig and social advancement of
relatively under-detreloped peoples. This task of promoting their well-
being seems to me to be one of social gardening rather than of social
engineering.The advancernent of peoples cannot be blue-printed in detail
beforehantl on a drawing board. What it calls for is a tentative, clinical,
sociologically pertinent treatment.
IilrKABIE:IVhat do fou mean when you say "sociologicallp perti-
nent"?
Mr. MANNING G:ven the composition of the population of the Terri-
tory and the duty of the South African Covernment to promote weI1-
being, it would seem to me only logical to look at the needs of each group
separately and so far as possible to deal appropnately with each one's
important needs. Only so wiIl one be abIe to give to each groupa height-
ened sensc of and a more Iively pride in itç own identity, eiiabling it
through tlie modernizing of its own traditional institutionsto rnove
fortvard towards a genuine self-determination in a world and a South
IfTest Africa made safe for diversity. How, 1 ask myself, can the well-
being of theçe variously significant peoples be prornotcd if their individ-
uality as peoples is not made for them the basis of their expanding self-
esteem? How shall the Ovambo, the Nama and the rest of them continue,
without a sense of frustration, to insist on heing autheiiticly thernselves,
if administratively they are treated as if al1 interchangeable. At the
prescnt tin~e, it is, of course, betwcen the European and the non-Europ-
ean groups that the widest differenceç in lcvels of civilization and ways
of life obtain: but, even ~vhere there is no European eIement in the
Territory, my view would still be the same. For it is by giving to each
ethnic group its independent opportunity to flourish and to grow that
the stage will be soonest reachcd when, with due understanding of the
choice that itis making, it may decide what path to follow in the further
pursuit of its own ideals.
hlr.RABIE: NOW,Professor Manning, you have been speaking of the
development of the groups up to now, what have you to Say about well-
being and development of the individual?
>Ir.AIASKING I: is true that what one bas been considering so far is
how far it is conducive to the well-being of an ethnic group or people to
furtherthe development of its corporate feeling, its group conçciousness,
its sense of being not just a human aggregnte but a comrnunity, with
traditions, with a culture, with a future of its own. In my vicw it is
salutary to do this, not merely for the advancement of the group, as
distinct from its members, but also, and pcrhaps more importantly, for
the sake of the maturing personalities of the individual members of the
group. Though there could no cloubt be cxceptions, it is, 1 take it, a
truism that in general,it is in community that human personaIity finds
its earliest and most spontaneous fulfilment. The persona1 self-image, of
the individual has its most natural development if vitally tied in with
the collective self-image of the social urhole. One might almost suggest
it as a masirn-take care of the dignity, the rnaturity and the self-
assurance of the group and the clignity oftheindividual will take care of
itself.
Mr. F~B[E: 1am now coming to what y011describecl earlier on as your
second point of view-that isthe one concernetl wit1.ithe future. What
have you to say about that?
air. Af.~h-sr~c:This folIows imrnediately, Jlr. President, from what 1618 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
have been saying about the dignity both of the individual and of the
group. Itis,in my view, necessary to the dignity of every ethnic group
that it be given the right ofself-determination. Indeed it is as much for
this reason as for any other that 1have such doubts about the suggested
rule of non-differentiation, for a rule of non-differentiation seerns to be
radically incompatible with the essential idea of self-determination as
this should, in my opinion, be understood. In fact,I can see three distinct
stages or contexts in which, in one's promotion of the procesç of self-
determination, one might find oneself embarrassed by such a mle.
Air.RABIE: IVillYOU deal with those stages in turn, please? Take your
first one.
Rlr.BIAN~UIN TGh: first takes a little longer than the second and the
third, I think.
What 1have referred to as the incompatibility of the two philosophies,
the philosophies of self-determination and of nori-differentiation, is not,
1 think, generally acknowledged. Indeed,it is, 1 suppose, in the name of
self-determination that the suggestion is sometimes made that the
question of the eventual destiny of the territory should be referred for
decision to the population, or to the spokesman for the population, as a
whole. The inhabitants of the territory would, on this basis, be treated
as if aii alike, their membership ofdifferent comrnunities being ignored,
and the combined membership of dl the different communities being
Iumped together and treated as if together composing one single com-
munitp only. And this in the name of self-determination!
But that, 1 am afraid, Mr. President,is not at al1 my understanding of
what self-determination essentially means, The idea of seIf-determination
presupposes, 1should myself have thought, the existence of a given self,
or selves,whose possible aspirations to self-rule are to be ascertained and
given effect to. But when two or more communities are lumped together
into one, what happens to their respective self-hoods and their claims to
self-determination and the opportunity for self-rule? In theirstead, there
is erected a new synthetic unit, an artificial self; and it is to this sociolo-
gical monster that the opportunity for a so-called self-determination is
accorded. Thus is there made a mockery of the very principle of seif-
determination as 1 would think it should properly be understood. The
fact'is that for a group to be joined with other groups before it has
achieved the needed understanding of itself and its situation will not
necessarily conduce to its well-being. For the result may be to land it in
the predicament of those who, having no developed self-hood of their
own, find themselves at a disadvantage in their association with others
who, in the strength ofa mature collective self-hood, know precisely what
they want and how they mean to get it.
If groups for whose well-being a hlandatoq is responsible are to be
launched in more or less indissoluble union with others, ont0 the waters
of independence, 1think it should be as a result of their own uninhibited
choosing and not in consequence of a decision made on their behalf when
they are not yet mature enough to be*fullyparty to what is being done.
There is al1 the difference in the world between a marriage between
partners who have freely chosen one anotherand the kind of child marriage
that is,1 believe, still the custom in certain parts of the world.
Mr. RABIE:Will you proceed there to what you cal1the second stage
of context?
Mr. RIANNIKG T:his stage is reached if self-determinationin the sense WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 6rg
ofself-determination for the several ethnic groups, is not precluded at the
first stage.
Suppose then that itis accepted that until the day when any given
community willbe qualified to participate, in full awareness of what is at
stake, in the determination of what its future is to be, the unique and
independent self-hood oi each community must be respected and
maintained. Suppose that this principle, formt: axiomatic, is conceded,
what for any given community is to signalize the arrivai of that day?
And is the rule of non-differentiation to preclude the application of
different Ineasures for the speedier advancement of the several com-
munities and their preparation for constitutional change? 1s the entire
convoy to move with the slowest ship? 1s self-determination for com-
munity A to be delayed until community B is prepared for it as well, or
is self-determination tobe thrust upon community B because the time
has corne for community A to have it?
&Ir. RABIE:NOW,finally, Professor Manning, your third stage of
context.
Mr. MANNING Th:e third possibility arises, Mr. President, in the event
that ships are not required to move in convoy, and that, whether simul-
taneously or at different moments, self-determination is being accorded
to each of several communities in its own iridependent right. What
happens then? Self-determination, if it means anything, means for me
the free exercise of a choice; and, if free, a choice may go one way or it
may go another. This means that with .self-determination different
groups might go different ways. 1wonder how such a result could, under
the regime ofa ruleof non-differentiation, be endorsed and implemented?
If the mandatory power isto be debarred from differentiating, how isit at
one and the same time to give effect to the choices of more self-deter-
mining co~nmunitiesthan one? LI'ecannot assume that the choices they
make will turn out to be al1the sarne.
Mr. ~BIE: That, hlr. President, concludes rny examination.
The PRESIDENM T:r. Gross?
hIr. GROSS:Mr. President. Mr. Manning, in accordance with the
procedure, 1 shaU attempt to cross-examine you on the basjs of your
testimony. With regard to hastily scratched notes here I may misquote
willibeounwitting, 1do,Sir, will you please correct me. Any such rnistakes
First of all, Sir, rnayask you, Professor Manning, whether, in your
study of l.he Applicants' contentions, particularly as set forth on IV,
page 493, in the context of the arguments to which that page refers,
would you pleaçe be good enough to statc ivhether, in the first place, you
consider that your evidence relates to both branches of the Applicants'
case and, if 1 may, Sir, specify that for ease of understanding. DO you
consider tliat your evidence relates to that major branch of the Appli-
cants' case which poses the theory that Article II of the Mandate should
be interpreted in the light of certain standards to ivhich page 493 refers
or, secondly, that your evidence alsois intended ta relate to the alter-
nativeand cumulative contention that such standards have, by reawn.of
general applicability, achieved the status, legally speaking, ofa rule of
international law quite apnrt from the question of the interpretation of
the Mandate as such? Do you understand the Applicants' contention to
be that, Sir?
Mr. MANNING I;have been tempted, Mr. President, to remind myself EVITNESSES AND EXPERTS 62 I
rights, burdens, etc.,on the basis of the fact that there are a multiplicity
of groups and they are not aUinterchangeable. This isthe way 1 perhaps
ratlier crudely formulated the question for myself.
$Ir.GROS SXOW S,ir,in connectionwith the description of the content
of the staiidards for intcrpretation andthe norni wvhichis asserted by thc
Applicants, alteriiatively and cumulatively, tc~have developed in the
international cornmunity, in coiiriection wvith the paragraph to wliich
the honourable President called your attention and to which you testi-
fieclat page 608, Su+ra, of the verbatim of yesterday tl-iatyou had read
and that what you are about to Say was directed to the norm as stated
in what you Iiad reati-1 reicr to the colloquy between the honourable
President and yourself at page 608 of yesterday's verbatirn, and your
ansiver waç "1 bclieve it to be,>Ir. President". Did you, Sir, in that
reading, consider, irithe context of the honourable Presiclent's question,
the following: that, in addition to what was read by learned counscl
yesterday . . . Would the witness care to have a copy of the Reply, Mr.
President ?
The PRESIDEET Y:es,1 tllink it wouldbc more corivenient, Mr. Gross.
Perhaps you rnight read him his answer to niyquestion.
Mr. GROSS I:beg yoiir pardon, Sir, 1thought Ihad; I apologize.
The coiloquy to wvhich 1make reference ison page 608 of the verbatim
of ycsterday, and the Presiclent said:
"Having read that [I believc I am correct in saying that the
reference was to p. 4931is what you are about to say clirected tthe
norm as stated in what pou have read?"
Your answer was: "1 believeit to be,Mr. President."
Does the honourable President wish any more to be rend?
Tlie PRICSIDEN :TO, that is sufficicnt, thank yu.
3Ir. Gnciss: Now. the passage, to ~vhich 1 called your attention, reads:
"In tlicfollowing analysis of the relevant legal norrns, tlie terrns
'non-discrimination' or 'non-separntion' are used in their prevalent
and customary sense: stated negatively, the terms refer to the
absence of governmcntal policies or actions which allot status, rights,
duties, privileges or burdens on the basis of mcmbership in a group,
class or race rather thaii on the basis of inclividual merit, capacity
or potential: [and now I cal1 your attention ta what mas not read
aloud yesterday] stated affirmatively, the terrns refer to govern-
mental policies ancl actions the objective of wliich is to protect
equality of opportunity and equal protection of the lawç to indivi-
dual persons as such." (IV, p. 493.)
Sow, pausing the, Sir, with regard to the ajfirrnative contest, would
you say that your testirnony was directed or intendetl to be directed to
establish that in anvthiiig, let mc Say, in any respect,the protection of
equality of opportuhity and equal protection [ifthe lalvs to individual
perçons as such, wouId in any sense be inralid or not customary or not
applicable to South West Africa?
nlr. MAPTNIN Ishould imagine that if tliis normas worded thus, had I
been incoiporated in the Nandatc, there might on some occasion have
been confiict between the requirements of the norm and the requirements
of Article2 as at present \\,ordeci,and rny testirnony related to Articl2
as at preçent worded, and to ~vhether non-differentirition would alwnys
serve the purposes ofArticle z.622 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. GROSS :ir, with respect to the use of your term differentiation, do
you use that as synonymous with, let me take the word, discrimination,
or non-discrimination as used in the quoted passage?
Mr. MANNING 1:have seen both these terms used in a variety of
contexts with a varietyofmeanings, but my cursory study of the antece-
dents of these proceedings led me to the view that non-differentiation
was a less invidiouç term to use,in that non-discrimination seems to
suggest that there might be detriment to those who were differentiated
against,~vhereasnon-differentiation is completely neutral on this point,
and it was to that that1 addressed rnymind because 1 understood that
that term had been used.
Mr.GROSS :y whom, Sir?
Mr. MANNING 1understood that it had been used at some stage by the
Applicantç.
Mr. G~oss: And you understood, Sir, that this was the basis upon
which the Applicants based their contention? 1s thiç what you were
advised by Respondent, Sir?
The PRESIDENT Y:OU cannot ask him that at all, Mr. Gross.
Mr.G~oss: 1withdraw that question,with your permission, Sir.
IVas that your understanding,Sir?
Mr. MARNIKG M:y understanding was that it would be relevant to
testify, in the light of such expertise1thave, on the question whether
it was desirable to avoid differentiating in one's atternpt to fulfil the
requirements of Articlez (2)of the Mandate.
Mr. GROSS: Sir, would your underçtandinggo 50 far as to Say thayou
had comprehended or understood the Applicantç' case towards the
question whether, for example, differentiatiori between minors and
persons of age was not permissible under the Mandate-did you consider
that that type of differentiation, to use your phrase, woube intended
by the Applicants to be not perrnissible?
Mr.MANNING 1:would not myseIf have thought so, because I thought
that the issuewas really between the groups as such-the groups being
described in such a manner as not to invite attention tthis problemof
the minors.
Mr. G~oss: So that the question or thpoint to which your testimony
is intended to be directed does not,1aunderstand you now, Sir, proceed
from the premise that the Applicantsconsideror contend that any differ-
entiation arnong individuals is in itself perrnissible?
Mr. MANNING1: have no doubt in my mind that these issues might
perhaps be very important in this case, but they were not the issues to
which I directed my mind for the purpose of this testimony.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, would you Say that discrimination, i1 under-
stood your answer to my question correctlp, had an invidious connota-
tion-was that the point of your comment in your response to my
question, Sir?
Alr.~~AKXIXG: No, 1 think the pointof my response was that 1 had
underçtood that the term differentiate had corne to be preferred.
Mr. GROSSB : y the Applicants, Sir?
Mr.MANNING W:ell, in the course of discussion and preçum-b-y by the
Applicants.
blrGROSS :see, Sir, so that was your understanding, Sir?
Mr. MANNING I:understood that it was -ermane to discuss differen-
tiation as such. WITSESSES .%Si3 EXPERTS 623
hlr. GROSS:1see. Now, Sir, may Iinvite your attention tothe remain-
ing paragraph or two on page 493 which are relcvant to the context:
"As is shown below, there has evolved over the years, and now
exists.a generalIy accepted international human rights norm of non-
discrimination or non-separation, as defined in the preceding para-
graph. Such a norm is evidenced by international undertakings in
the form of treaties. conventions and declarations, by juclicial
decisions, the practice of States and constitutional and statutory
provisions by which such a norm is incorporated into the body of
laws of States." (IV, p. 493.)
Now, Sir, was it your intention in anything you testificd tor concern-
ing which you made comments or expresseci opinions, to relate it to this
paragraph and specifically the second sentence thereof?
&Ir.AIAKXING: In so far as1 rcferred tomy distaste for any doctrinaire
or ideological approach to a problem which seemed to me to be one of
social gardening, in that sense perhaps I was indirectly referring to this
sort of paragraph. But this related to something lvhich \vas not my
concern; 1 knew that the Court wouId be concerned with this question,
but 1did riot feel that1 was.
hlr. G~oss: Do 1 take it from that response, Sir, that your testimony
was not int ended by you to be directed towards establishing or otherwise
the correctness or not of thestatement,the obligation or conclusion which
is set forth in the second sentence of the paragraph 1have just read?
The PRESIDEKT:That is the sentence beginning: "Such a norm .. .",
so you are only being asked ~vhether your evidence w~s directed to the
sentence rt:ading: "Such a norm is evidenced by international under-
takings .. .", etc., down to the words ". . . laws of States".
Mr. G~oss: That is right, Sir.
Mr. MAKNINGN : o, not at all, hlr. President.
Mr. G~oss: Now, Sir, the next sentence:
"The esistence and virtually universal acceptance of the norrn of
non-discrimination or non-separation, as more fully described
below, gives a concrete and objectivecontent to Article2, paragraph
2,of the Mandate." (IV, p. 493.)
Wjth reference to the phrase ". . .more fully described below", did you
in your testimony intend to direct your comments to the material which
is ". . . more fully described below .."?
The PRESIDENT Th:at is the "sources",isit not?
Mr. GRoas: That is right, Sir.
The PRESIDENT S: YOU understand, Professor, that >Ir. Gross is
referring to the various sources which are described in the pages folloming,
cornmencing ai the bottom of page 493, and the question is whether your
evidence was directed to the existence and virtual acceptance-the
universal acceptance-of the nom of non-discrimination or non-
separation as described in those pages which cornmence to run from the
bottom of page 493. 1s that clear?
Mr. MAXNING:1 can be quite categorical about thnt, Mr. President.
My testimony was not in any sense directed to that question.
11r. GROSS : Sir, the next paragraph :G24 SOUTH WEST AFRIC-4
"Such a norm of non-discrimination is, moreover, generally
accepted as a minimum norm of officia1policy and prnctice on the
part of the government toward perçons subject to its jurisdiction."
Was any of your testimony, Sir, intended to relate tothat comment,
eitl-ier to refuitor to affirm it or otherwise?
hlr. MANNIKG 1 think this answer which 1 am now giving is a reiter-
ation of what 1 have said already. ,
hlr. GROÇS :'hich is ~vhat,Sir?
Mr. MANNING \nich was that 1have not been directing my attention
to this theory of there having been established an internationalnorm
which was legally binding upon anybody.
Mr. GROÇÇ: Would you Say, Sir, that with respect to the general
question or questions to whichyour evidence was directed you took as a
point of departure, or would be prepared to agree, that in connection
with any norm, in the sense in which it is defined by the Applicants,
specificallyinthis case a rule of international law which is stated as an
alternative contention,as 1have made clear, there are at least the three
elements: the content, the sourceandthe application? Would you agree
generally that that is the correct descriptionof the major elernents of
the norm to which your testimony was intended to be directed?
hlr.31~~x1s~ It:sounds to me the sort of thing one might say about
any rule of law.
$Ir.G~oss: Non,, Sirwith respect ta your testimony, wouldyou advise
the honourable Court whether Sour testimony was intended to be directed
in any respect to the source of the rule contended for?
Mc.~IANNIKG No:t at all.
Mr. G~oss And with respect to the content of the rule, or norm,as
described by the Applicants, is your testimony intended to raise s ques-
tion about the validity or otherwise of the descriptioby the Applicants
of the content of the norm?
The YRESIDENT T he validityin terms oflaw?
Mr. GROSS:In terms of anything to which his evidence was sought to
be directed, Sir. my question is not clea.. .
The PRESIDEX WT :ll, validity rather assumes that itaivalid norm
at law.
Alr.GKOSS:I beg your pardon, Sir. 1 think 1 may Say with respect
that the President is quite right.By "validity" 1 meant to Say the
accuracy from the standpoint of content, that is, whether or not this is,
from the expertise of the witness. an accurate way of describing a rule or
norm of non-discrimination. Would you disagree witli that aa descrip-
tion from the point of view ofpolitical science?
The PRESIDENT :hat is the first paragraph on page 49ofthe Repli,
IV, Professor.Did you regard, in your approach to your evidence, the
definitionof the norm of non-discrimination or non-separation as set
out in that paragraph as being, in substancan accurate way to describe
content?That is the question, is it not, hlr. Gross?
&Ir.GROSS:ires, hlr. Preside~it. Thank you, Sir.
hlr.MAXXISG :s being accurate?
hlr.CROSS Y:es, Sir. Diyou raise any question concerning its accuracy
or,if 1 may add with your permission, Jlr. President, accuracy may
possibiy not convey my full meaning, so1 would like to Say: from the
point of view of political science, would you express a view
thisis or is not a valid or acceptable method of describing a norm of ~VIT~EÇSEÇ AXD EXPERTS 62j
non-discrimination, if you have a view on this point? 1 do not mcan to
force a view, hlr. Presidcnt.
The PRESIDENT:Mr. Gross, 1 think it is a little confusing perhaps.
Would yoii permit me to put a question to the witness?
hlr. G~oss: Yes, if you ylease, Sir.
The PRESIDENT You will see, Professor,that: the paragraph startsas
follows :
"The following analysis of the relevant legal norms. the terrns of
'non-discrimination' or 'non-separation' art: used in their prevalent
and ciistomary sense: . . ."
and then they are stated negativeIy and positively, and that is the
definition ivhich the Applicants givc to the terms non-discrimination or
non-separation. You are not asked to express a view as to whether there
esists in law such a norm. As 1 understand the question, it is: when you
refer to non-discrimination or non-scparation, as you did inyour evi-
dence, did you refer to it in the samsense or in another content?
Mr. GROSS:That is very good, Sir, thank you very much.
Mr.AIANNING 1:think Iwas more conscious of the firsbranch than the
second bra.nch of this definition in the thinking 1 gave to this problem,
and 1 ought, 1believe, to admit that 1 acceptetl, for the purpose of my
thinking, the relatively sirnptified paraphase of ihis, which is reflected in
the term "non-differentiation", which 1have kept on using. 1thought of
this as the question on which 1ought to testify: namely what would be
the effect if the norm was to be observed, whether it was indispensable
that groups shoüld not be differentiated bctwecn.
&Ir.GROSS: 1 should like toask you whether you consider that your
testirnony, and the theories and points of view to which your evidence
was led, which ou have given to the honourable Court, reflects, or is
based upon, objectively determinable standards, irrespective for the
moment of the merits or soundness or othcrwise of any such standards,
let us say in a political science sense?
Mr. MANNING:Xy disposition would be to differentiate between
standards which have, and those which have not a legal status, the
demonstration that they had this legal status being strictly a technicaI
matter for lawyers. Aiternatively, they might be standards which had
what one might cal1a moral çtatus, in tlixt they were an element in the
social philosophy of particular individuals,and a matter for discussion,
which could go on indefinitely, among those who adhered or subscribed
to these standards and those who had doubts about them. 1 am not sure
that political science would tell me very rnuch about this, but pliilosophqr
might tell me a good deal.
Air. GROÇÇ :Vell, mhether it is based on one discipline or another, you
are, of course, are you not, testifying here as an expert with regard to
these questions and the judgments you have espressed with regard to the
norm, irrespective of the definition of the norrn-would you agree that
your testimony as an expert was based iipon or reflected certain objec-
tively determinable standards from political science, philosophica! or
sociological or any other sense, or were thcy purely subjective expressions
of view?
Rlr. Irlr~~~~~ 1a~: afraid that 1will not accept that dichotomy, these
two alternatives. 1 would Say what my testimony had been about. 1 saw
mysclf as testifying as a purported expert in ttie field to which1 have626 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
devoted my thought for a good many years, and which 1have defined as
the field ofpolitical sociology. Now, sociology is nota branch of philo-
sophy and the evaluation of social values is something which lies in the
field rather of social philosophy than of political sociology.It is as a
politicalsociologist, imy own vie~v,that 1 have appeared before this
Court, in the belief that political sociology is comparable to economics in
that it isafield in which, when issues arise on ~vhichexperts may differ,
anybody testifying as an expert can do no more than givc the position
which he hirnse las reached and be prepared to try to defend that
position. That is al1that 1 have come here to try to do and 1 hope my
testimony has been appropriately guided by this conception.
Mr.GROSS1 : am sure that it has been as helpful asit has becn interest-
ing but, with reference to political sociology, would it then follow, or
would it not, that your testimony with regardto tlie relationship between
the individuai and the group and the social order-if you will accept that
simplified phraseology-that your testimony with respect to this range
of subjects, which are included under what you describe as "differen-
tiation", reflects objectively determinable standards in the field of
political sociology? Would you agree with that or not ?
Mr. MANNINGI : wouId not claim that. 1 am not sure that 1 had
allegedly objcctively ascertainable standards in mind in addressing
myself, in what 1 called an exploratory spirit,to the question of what
would bc the effect of applying the norm, as 1 conceived it, ithe condi-
tions of the Mandate, governed as the Mandatory is by Article 2, para-
g'aph 2,of the Mandate.
Mr. G~oss: But, testifying as an expert on these matters for the
enlightenment of the Court, and referring to the expertise which has
been established in the qualifying questions addressed to you by learned
Counsel, would you say that your testimony (1ask you this as a political
scientist or sociologist or whatever) proceeded in no respect from what
you regarded as,scientifically or politically, standards which could be
objectively determined by you as a basis for your expert testimony?
Mr. MANNING 1 :m not sure that 1would daim to be able to establish,
scientifically and objectively, moral standards.
Rfr.GROSS:I am not talking about moral standards in this context,
although 1would be glad to include those if you wish, butwas referring
to standards which a scientist, a political scientist, or an expert ithe
field ofpolitical sociology, would conclude, on the basis of his studies,
represent certain generally accepted political, sociological standards
which are, letus Say,accepted by the fraternity. There are such standards
are there not, Sir, or conclusions reached in your disciplines?
Mr. MANNING1: think in every culture you get fashionable views.
Mr. GROSS :ou think that with respect to the disciplines which you,
Sir, represent with such distinction, there are no conclusions ofagener-
aily accepted nature, which may be referred to as standards or principles,
in respect of which specific opinionare formed in a particular context?
Mr.MANNING 1: ould certainlySay that prima facie one does need to
consider with great respect any views which prevail widely among
thinking people; but in relation to this particular problem, 1shoulhave
thought that what one waç concerned with was the specific obligationto
promote well-being of the peoples, and this was not something, it seerned
to me, that could be fulfiLbydany doctrinaireapproach.
Mr. G~oss:Sir, 1 am sure that was not intended by my question, and 1 WITNESSES APiD EXPERTS 627
am trying. ta simplify the matter, addressing my questions to you as a
political scientist, political sociologist and, generally, an expert in the
fields for which you have been qualified: and 1 am simply asking you,
Sir, whetlier, and 1 would have thought, with frankness, that this was
an axiomatic question, but apparently I am not addressing itto you in
clear enough terms,whether it is not true that in the socialorbehavioural
sciences tliere are generally accepted standards or conclusions, reflecting
the best jtidgment or thought of the science or discipline concerned, upon
the bais of which an expert u~ould express his trieivs and reach his
conclusiorisin a particular context-isthat not axiomatic, Sir?
Mr. MANNINGI:t is not axiomatic to me that ail expert could express
viewsother than his own,however widely they wereheld.
Mr. GROSSI:Vei'elS l,ir, willnot quarrel withyou about that. I just
would like to askone question-how does an expert then safeguard, or
assure the honourable Court that he is safeguarding, against the inevi-
table human consequences of emotional bias or other personal predilec-
tions or prejudices? I am not accuçi~lgyou of anything of that sort, Sir,
but how i~one to assure against that, again as a matter of behavioural,
against that? science, or just human affairs-how does one safeguard
Mr. MANNINGI:VelI,1think, asI said yesterday, that it is very hard
always to bear in mind the difference between the two angles of mental
vision-of the detached investigator on the one hand and of the man of
sympathies on the other. But one has to try, il one is really looking at
such a question as you are now putting to me, which is not the sort of
question 1 was discussing in my evidence ...
Mr. G~oss: Well, Sir, I was referring not to ivhat you were discussing
in your evidence but the basis upon which you consider your testimony
to have been presented in terms ofyour expertise, or proffered expertise.
Now, 1 will not press that point any further. unless you wish to add to
what you have already said, Sir, escept to açk you one question. LVhen
you say "detached": how does one detach oneself from the purely
subjective or possibIy charged emotional or psychological jnvolvement?
How does one detach oneself without reference to objective standards
for the purpose of expert testimony, Sir?
Mr.MANNING It:al1depends what question one is trying to understand
and answer.
Mr. G~oss: Well, let us Saythat the question is one of racial relations,
separation, or discrimination; take that as an example, Sir.
The PRESIDENTH : OWwoulci YOU detach yourself from any suggestion
-one which has not been made against you, but the question is-how
would you detach yourself, Professor, from any racial or emotional
bias? If yciuhave none you have got nothing to detnch yourself from, but
if you had any how would you detach yourself?
hlr. GROSS If I rnay add, Sir, unless by reference to some objectively
determinable standard.
The YRESIDPKTB : ut that was not the question which you put, Mr.
Cross.
Mr.GKOSS M:Tell,Sir, may 1reserve the right to rephrase my question,
toThet PRESIDENTYn m: es, certainly.
Mr. GR~SSA : nd now, with respect, 1beiievc 1 have done so by taking
the liberty of adding to your .. .62s SOUTH WEST AFRICA
The PRESIDENT That is thereason rvhyyou and the rvitness were at
cross purposes.
Mr. GROÇS: Thank you, Sir. Now, do you understand this question,
after this colloquy, Professor Manning?
Mr. MANNING I:would like to answer the question asit was formulated
by the horiourable President . . .
&Ir. GROSS T:hat is your privilege, of course.
Air. ~~AXS~SG: Iwould have thought that it was a pod thing tobear
in rnind that ifwe Say that we have no bias wc deceive ourseives, but
that does not prevent us from having the ideal in mind of being as
detached asWC can be. Cleanliness is somcthing which we nevcr achieve,
but we aim at it. WCare always aiming at cleanliness, but perfect clean-
liness is never achieved. And perfect objectivity is never achieveti. Biit if
people are not conscious of the conflict, bctween the ideal of objectivity
and the orientation given toa man by his sympathies, then they will not
be able to make even the necessary atternpt to detach themselves.
1would not Sayat al1that my views aredctached, but 1 would certainly
claim that I try to make them detached.
Mr. GROSÇ: Sir,applying this more generally now with respect to the
issue in hand, and that is with respect to the racial or ethnic policies
which are irnplicit, iiideed esplicit, in the doctrine or policy of apartheid
and 1 am referring specifically to the Territory but if you wish to
include thc Kepublic as a cognate problem, of course, 1 mould have no
objections if the Court had none-but with regard to the elements
involved in the issue of apartheid, would you Say, Sir, an1am speaking
now about South West Africa, that the question of detachment from self-
interest, frorn bias, from any motivation, would be difficult, at best, in
the case of the applicatioii of certain policies or practices by officia1
action ofa dominant or ruling group?
Nr. A~ASYIXG: I would Say, &Ir.President, that detachment in these
matters is as difficult for defenders of apartheid as it is for critics of
apartheid. Defenders of apartheid are quite commonly members of the
priviIeged society into which 1was born, and it is notorious amongst
sociologists that privileged people find it difficult to be detached in
thinking about theirown situatiori.Thisdoes not preclude me, asa ïvould-
be political sociologist, from trying to adclrmys mind as objectively to
the question of what is being donc, in what circumstances, and for what
reaçons, in a given country, evenifit is my own country, as 1 do when 1
try to understand the policiesofthe governments of other countries.
3lr. G~oss: Yes, Sir: thank you. Would you Say, however, in further
amplification of rny question to you with regard to the difficulty of
detachment, of objectivity, on the part of a ruling or dominating grouy
in respectof the application of policies which relate to those which are not
in the ruling group, would you Say in that contest of difficulties of
detachment and objectivity, that it would be relevant to inquire whcther
the rnethods by which, the areas in which, the time whcn. moirements
towards political independence, as it iscallcd in the record herc by the
Respondent and by the Odendaal Commission, do you believe, Sir, that
they will be determined or are likely to be determined objectively and
with detachment by the ruling or dominant group?
Mr. ~IAXYIXG K esponsible statesmanship, iri my view, Mr. Prcsident,
can never be detached and it ought not to be detached. A statesmaii has
responsibilities, he has objectives, he has ideals, and he has to look, in WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 629
any given situation, at the desirabilities and feasibilitiesdonthe best
he can, as the doctor has to do the best hecan in the presence of a sick
patient, because a11societies are in some respect sick, and 1think stateç-
manship isa task in social therapeutics and this is a matter which is
guided by the desire to make the patient better,but there are al1sorts
of inhibitions in any of us in trying to do good in the world, anitmay
be that particular statesmen on particular occasions are affected by a
number of different considerations,But I am concerned as a political
sociologist, looking at the thing from the outside in no matter what
country, to sec what was the situation in which these people found
themselves, \vhat were the possibilities, what were the considerations
that must have borne upon their decision. and oiilp so Ijudge whether
this is the kirid of decision wh1ccould endorse+
This is the question1address myself to; but 1 do not attribute to any
statesman. in the fieldof practical action,that quality which \ve cal1
detachmerit. Itis not posçible for a statesman in the field of acttobe
detached. He has tobe influenced by his values at everystep.
Mr. G~oss: Sir. rnay I ask one more question; perhaps the witness wili
be good eriough to think about it dunng the break.
The PRIIÇIDEXT : OUdo not want his answei. now?
hlr.G~oss: No, Sir, but 1 would Iike a considered answer, if he is
willing to give it.
'I'hePRI~SIDENT : ÿ ail means: give him the considered question and
you will get a considered answer!
Mr. G~ciss: The question is this, Professor Nanning. iVould you care
to express a view to the iionourable Court as to methods or procedures
by which responsible statcsmanship, in a context of the sort we are
discussing here, would seek to assure itself against being motivated by
interests,by self-interests, competitiveinterests, or other subjective
ernotions or attitudes?
The PRESIDENT:YOUare iiot calledupon to answer the question now,
Professor. The only question 1ask you-do you understand the question
that you are to cogitate upon over the nest 20 minutes?
Mr. MANNING1: should like to be sure, 3Ir. President, whether 1 have
untierstood it. As1 çcc it, it nsks me to consider whether statesmanship,
addressing itself to practicalroblems, is able to assume an attitude of
detachment.
Mr. GRGSS :O, Sir.
The PRESIDENT A:pparently not, ifanjrhuman is able to do so in anj7
given circiimstnnces. Mr. Gross will put the question again before we
receçs.
Mr. GROSS: Very briefly, Sir. Thaiik you, Mr. President.
lirom a political science, oapolitical philosophy, or sociological point
of view, what safeguards, what rnethods, if any, would responsible
statesmanship adopt, or install, or follow, in order to assure to the
maximiim extent against decisions tnken oiit of self-interest or other,
shall we Say, subjective, or, i1 rnay sap, unworthy motives (if 1 rnay
use that phrase, which 1 will withdraw if pou do not like it)? Do you
understnnd the question, Professor?
The PKESIDENT YOUundersiand it now, do you Professor?
Mr. MANNING1 :hope 1do, blr. President,Imil1think about it.
The PRESIDENT D:o you remember the question that was put to you,
Professor? lf7ellasbeçt you do remember it, what is your answer?630 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. MANNING It:would suitme better if it were repeated, Sir. 1should
be quite sure that 1was answering . ..
The PREÇIDENT 1:am sure that you would not get the same question.
Mr. MANNING: Well, Mr. President, shaii 1 answer the question 1
thought 1was asked?
The PRESIDENT Y:es, you can give your answer that way.
Mr.MANNISG 1:thought 1 wasasked the question about whatsafe-
guards statesmanship could properly bear in mind, and haye available,
to ensure that the bias arising out of their material and other interests
would not unduly affect their judgment on what circumstances called
for as being social prudence. "Social prudence" is the term 1 would use
for the criterion by which the actions of statesmen should be judged.
hlr. GROSSE :xcuse me, Mr. President. May 1 enquire whether this
is part of the question or part of the answer.
The PREÇIDENT I :think he is trying to restate the question that you
put to him, although he has not used the same words. 1suppose if you
put the question again you would not use the same words.
Mr.GROSSL :Vell,Sir, 1am sure it would be as unintelligiasebefore.
The PRESIDEN T:eil 1 think it might be well to get the answer of
the Professor which generallyraises the issue which you put to him, and
then 1 think that ,perhaps, we could discontinue this philosophical
penetration of hismind.
Mr. MANNINGsor, W:ell, Mr. President, 1 realize that statesmen do
sometimes find themselves in a situation of great perplexity. 1 knoof
one instance in which one of them wrote about one of his colleagues who
had resigned over a moral issue, "no such luxuries for me". He felt that
hissense ofresponsibility required him tostay at his post and to do what
was feasible in the situation in which he found himself, regrettable
though it might be that he should have to do this. And 1should have
thought the statesmanship is fettered by al1sorts of factors, including,
of course, the need to retain the support of the public that has entrusted
them with the tasks of statesmanship, including also the conscience with
which they wake up in the middle of the night to think about what they
have been doing and what they are going to do, and including that
decent respect for the opinion of mankind whichisdue from al1statesmen,
in al1circumstances. But 1 would certainly contend that the old saying
securusjirdical orbis terraruisan overstaternent. It is a simplification.
It is by no means necessarily true that whatever the world thinks is
right is inherently and necessarily intrinsically right, and the statesrnan
must obey his otvn conscience even though he be in a minonty of one-if
he is a man.
Mr. CROSSS :ir, in your reference 1 will now observe the honourable
President's adrnonition and not attempt to probe your philosophical I
processes, but with regard tothe very practical aspect of the problem, at
least as the Applicants would viewit, would your response, with reference
to the support of the electorate in the specific situation in South West
Africa refertothe perçons who are, by reasons of colour or othenvise, or i
non-colour, entitled to participate in the franchise in the central govern-
ment? Would this be the kind of support which you had in mind
when you referred to the necessity of statesmanship having the support
used?e people, the eIectorate, the popuIace, or whatever phrase you WITNESSES ASD EXPERTS 631
Mr. MANNIK GAre you asking me for a technical definition ofwhan
electorate is?
Rlr. GROÇS:NO,Sir, 1am asking you for an eliiboration or clarification
of your response in which you, 1think, referred to one of the elements or
safeguards in respect of responçible statesmanship, the maintenance of
the support of, did you say parenthetically, electorate, or populace or
some othei*phrase? 1 do not recall your phrase.
Mr. MANNING 1:do not think 1 put the electorateas a safeguafcl. I
thought the demands of the electorate were a limitation on freedom
rather than a safeguard.
Mr. G~oss:IVell, Sir, which elements of your response were intended
to be responçive to the question with respect to safeguards? 1 had rnis-
understood you. Were any elements in your response inîended to relate
to the question 1asked, other than conscience ofcourse?
Mr. GROÇS:Because 1wanted you to know that I had understood that,
Sir.
Mr. MANNING B:ut why other than conscience?
Mr. GROSS1 : just explainecl, Sir, without engagjngaicolloquy any
further.
Mr.~~AXNIKG There isalsoa sense ofresponsibilit...
hlr.G~oss: Yes, Sir. Were there any other safeguards which yoii
intended to irnply or refer to in your response?
Mr. MANNING : did intend to mention the decent respect forthe
opinions of mankind.
Mr. GROJS: 1see, Sir.As interpreted by the responsible statesmen, no
doubt, Sir?
Rlr. MAXNING U:rell1 would say that sometimes those opinions are
quite clearly available. The question is whether thave tobe deferred
to.
Air. GROSS: Are they available, Sir, inthe form of, in anÿ sençe,
objectively deteininable standards, would you say?
Mr. MANNING So:metimes there is pretty clear evidcnceto what the
opinion of mankind is.
Mr. G~oss: Would you use this as synonymous for standards or are
you ...
Rlr. MANNING N:O.I do not need the word "standard".
Mr. GROSSI :see, Sir. You do not, do you, reject it in this context,Sir?
Mr. MANNING1: fhink it is a matter of taste whether one uses a
particular terminology.
hfr. GROSSY :es, Sir. Now with regard tothe question of the eiectorate
to which you did not refer, would youSay,Sir, that the attitudes of the
as a practical matter, in tems ofpolitical science, or behavioural science,
or political sociology, or whatever-would you say that a safeguard
against biased orself-interested action on the part of statesmanshijs
the existenceof an electorate?
MT. MANNING W:hen >fouspeak of bias are you speaking of personai
bias, personal interest?
hfr.G~oss: tVell, 1am speaking of people as individual human beings,
not as mernbers of groupç. I am not referring to statesmen aa group,
1 am referring to individual officials who, froni time to time, may be
in office. May I clarify my question Sir, by reference to an article which632 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
you mute for FormmgA nJairs in October 1964, Volume XLIII, No. r,
published in the United States by the Council on Foreign Kelations
entitled "In Defence of Apartheid". Now, you recall tliis article, Sir.
At page 140 you wrote, did you not, the following:
"The apartheid programme is the programme of a particular
Party-the National Party-and it iç germane to reflect in what
circumstances that Party had its birth."
And then you proceeded, did you not, to explain the origins, in a very
interesting iashion,if1 may Say, of the Party. Now, Sir, is itstill your
view (this was October 1964) that the apartheid programme is the
programme of a particular Party-the National Party. 1sthat still your
view?
Mr. ~~ANXINC: This was meant to be an historical statement.
Mr. GROSS W:ell, is it stillyour view as an historical statement?
hlr.MANHING A S 1understand it, the Party has not abandoned that
policy.
Mr. G~oss: And, Sir, did you not Say also on page 141,and if this is
out of context you may wisl-ito bring this out,bu1 think it is in context
but 1may be Ivrong:
"Thuç, the context of aiiydiscussion on alternatives toapart-
heid the raison d'étreof the National Party needs to be seen and
appreciated for what it is,and if apartheid is to be understood it
should be studiedin termsof the assumptions on which it is practised
by the National Party rather than simply in the light of those
prejudices which ensure its acceptance by enough of the voters to
permit its resolute application."
Do you still adhere to these views, Sir?
Mr. MANNING 1think in all, the analysis of any policies pursued by
democraticgovernments one can differentiate between the considerations
in the lightof whicli a given policy was thought appropriatc, and the
sentiments of the electorate which make it possible for the Government
to pursue such a policy without losing power in the process.
hlr.GROSÇ: And, Sir, if the electorate were opposed to such a policy,
would that not be a safeguard in respect of the pursuit of that policby
the leaders ofthe day?
hIr.~~ANSIEG: One could alrnost say that if the electorate was flatllr
against a particularpolicy it would bea guarantee that the policy would
not bepursued by anp Party.
&Ir.GROSS: Would it then follow, Sir, that the composition of the
electorate at~d the eligibility participate in the franchise 5vould be a
very important aspect of the decision-making function of the Govern-
ment?
Mr. MANNING 1am not sure if 1 understand the question.
Mr. G~oss: li70uld it follow, Sir, that the composition of the electorate,
the determination of those eligible or not to participate in the franchise,
woiild be an important aspect in the decision-making process and the
pursuit of particular policies, whatever they may be. IVould you Say
that this isan aniomatic statement, Sir?
Mr.MAXNIK XGO:, am afraid that 1 do not underçtand the question.
hlr.GROSSD : Oyou think that the composition of the electorate has
anything to do with the decisions taken by the Government, Sir? WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 633
hir. MAKNING : think the theory of democracy is that tlie electorate
speaks for the people and the sovereign people rule.
Mr. GRCISSC : ould I take it that the answer to niy question is yes, or
no, or any other qualification?
hlr.MANNING N:O, I am afraid 1 did iiot suificiently understand the
question.
kir. G~oss: 1s the composition of the etectorate of importance in
respect of the question whethera government piirsties a certain policy or
not?
Mr. MANKINGI:t would be very difficult to answer that one, Sir.
Mr. GROSS1 :see, Sir. In respect of the situatiinSouthWest Africa,
is it true or is it not, Sirthehnon-Whites are not permitted by reason
oftheir ethnic origin, or any other reason, to participate in the franchise
for central gover-nment?
Mr. MANNING : am not sure that one talkç about permitting people
to participate. People either have the franchist: or they have not, and
those who have it can exercise it.
Mr. GROSS:Who determines whether they have it or not in particular
instances?
Mr. MAKNING I:should usually consult the law on that.
Mr. GROSS:Who writes the laxv,Sir?
Mr. MAXNING:If you mean literally writes, you don't mean literallp
writes, you mean who enacts the law.
Jlr. G~oss: 1 said who writes the law. If y011would rather Say who
enacts the law, 1will rephrase my question. Who enacts the Iaw?
Mr. MAXNIKG:The procedure is very familiar to students of parlia-
mentary government .
hlr.GROSS: Sir, you would not deny-and 1 am sure you do not
attempt to cvade what 1 think are axiomatic questions and 1 even
apologize for asking them-is it or is it not true, Sir, would you Saya aç
political scientist, or otherwiçe, that (1 will bt: more specific now) in
South West Africa the non-Whites do not have the right to vote in the
electionçfor a centralgovernment? 1sthat afact, or is it noisit a law,
or is it not, Sir?
Mr. MANNIKG : believe it tbe the case.
MT.GROSS: Now, who makes the determination? Is it the central
government which makes the determination as to who is eligibIe for
participation in voting?
Mr. MANNING1: should have thought the officcrs at the election.
Mr. G~oss: The what, Sir?
Mr. MANNINGT : he officers, the polling officers.e are the people
who judge whether the wouId-be voter is eligiblt: to vote.
Iblr.GROSS:YOU mean, Sir, that if a law states, or provides, that a
non-White may not vote, then it would be the registering officer or the
polling officer who would have aiiy discretion with respect to allowing
him to vote:? SureIy you do not rnean that, Sir.
Mr. MANNING1 : should be astonished at any system where there was
discretion given toVary the law.
Mr. G~oss: That's right, Sir, 1 am just trying to ask an obviouç
question, but not getting a response, 1 don't think 1 should press this
any more than perhapç to make sure that you have not misundcrstood
me. Do you know or do you not know, Professor Manning, whether in the
Territory of South West Africa there are Iegal inhibitions upothe right634 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
of non-IVhites to participate in elections for the central Government?
Mr. MANKING These are not the words 1would use; 1would simply ask
myself who under the existing law is eligible to vote, and.we know that
in this particulacase the authonty over South West Airica was vested
in a government which is answerable to a parliament which sits in Cape
Town, which is answerable to an electorate, the rnernbership of which is
defined in the law of South Africs.
Mr. GROSS :he electorateas defined in the law of South Africa, does
it exclude non-Whites, so far as you know, from voting in the central
Government ?
Air. ~IANNINC The word "exclude" does not appeal to me ,..
Mr. GROSS: You used it, Sir.
Jlr.~IANXING I:hat does it inciude? is the question, surely?
Aïr. GROSS :matever word you choose-I thought 1 was using your
mord-1 will not pursue this linany further, unless you wish toelaborate
your answer. You consider that you have answered my qvestion?
RIr.~IANNING 1:am quite willing to answer your question.
Mr.GROSS Do you have anyfhing to add to what 1have already asked
you?
Mr. MANNING Y:es,1 have something to add.
Mr. GHOSS : lease, if you don't mind, Sir-certainlydo not want ...
hlr.MANNING 1:shouid have thought itwas very well known that the
Mandate had been conferred upon a country whcisegovernmental system
was a parliamentary oligarchy, and that this is still the case.
Mr. G~oss: 1see. Now, with respect to the excerpts whic1have taken
the liberty of reading from your article in Foreign Afairs titled"In
Defence of Apartheid", to get back to my question and the reason why,
the contexit n ivhich,I read these excerpt:ivhat safeguardsagainst the
possible consequences of policies pursued by the National Party in respect
of the Mandate, the Territory of South ifTest Africa, if any, other than
the conscience of the Mandatory or the officials composing the National
Party orany other party in power from time to tirne ...
The PRESIDENT M r. Gross, is this in relation to his knowIedas an
expert or his knowledge as an individual?
Mr. GROSSS :ir,1 have, with respect, frequentlfound a difficulty to
distinguish between these two, and1recall at an earlier phase when this
question came up that it waspointed out, as 1understood it, that there
were very considerable difficulties in distinguishing between testirnony
proffered asawitness and as an expert.1 have observed that distinction
difficult to follow as well. Thent of my question is to obtain from the
witness his views as an expert, if he has such views, regarding the
safeguardsagainst self-interestself-dealing, or the possibilities thereof in
respect of the Territoryof South IfJest Africa; this is really the sole
purport of my question..
The PREÇIDENTV : erywell.
hlr.GROSSC :ould you answer that question, Sir?
Bir.MANNING You have asked me not to refer to the sense of respon-
sibility of the statesman?
hlr.GROSS N:O,1have not asked you not to refer to anything1wanted
to letyou know that 1understood your answer in that respect;I am glad
you Say whatever you do Say.
Mr. MANNING M:y quick answer to that is thainthe first place there
isa sense of responsibility of the statesman who knows what the Mandate WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 635
says, and there is also the conscience of the public, lvhich is also in a
position to acquaint itself with what the Mandate says; and there are
always those ina country governed under the parliamentary system, who
are interested in having the Government turned out, discredited; and
any handle given by the action of the Government to those whowould like
to discredit it would be seizby those who are canvassing the case for the
supersession of this Govemment by another party,and this I would say
was quite an effective safeguard in a country where the public have
some sense of the difference betweenright andwrong.
&Ir.GROSS:Professor Manning, you have studied the hlandate, have
you not, from tirne to time and over the years, and you are farniliar with
its provisions regarding administrative supervision, or Article 6 in
particular?
Mr. MANNING 1would like to be asked a particular question.
Mr. GROSS: My particular question is whether you are familiar with
Article 6-are you familiar with the terms of Article 6 of the hlandate,
would you like to have it read?
Mr. MANNING 1:would like to have it read, please.
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir:
"The Mandatory shall make to the Council of the League of
Nations an annual report to the satisfaction of the Council, contain-
ing full information with regard to the territoryand iridicating the
measures taken to carry out the obligations assumed under Articles
2, 3,4 and 5."
Article 2, a.s you are certainly aware, is.the article with respect to the
promotion of the welfare, etc. And are you familiar with Artic22 of the
Covenant of the League of Nations?
Mr. ~~ANNING: Fairly.
Mr. GROSS:And paragraph 7 thereof, which rt:ads:
"In every case of mandate, the hlandatory shall render to the
Council an annual report in reference to the temtory committed to
itscharge."
You will recall that.And in connection with Article22, paragraph 1,do
you recall that, oru-ould you like me to refresh yoiir recollection about
its terms? Perhaps Ican read it to you, if you nish?
hlr. MAHYING :have it here.
hlr.GROSS T:ell me when you have read it, ifyou wilI,if you wish to
read it again. Have you read it?
hlr. NANYISG :have read Article 22.
Mr. GROSSI: cal1attention particuIarly in the contest orny questions
to the phrase :
".. . there should be applied the principle that the well-being and
development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilization and
that securities for the performance of this trust shoube embodied
in this Covenant".
You have read. thoçe words, have you Lot? With respect to the prob-
lems we have been discussing and to which you liave referred in respect
of thesafeguards, securities, or-1used the phrase assurances or guaran-
tees-against actions inspiredby self-interest, aan esample, would you
express an opinion as an expert or on tlie basis of your knowledge or636 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
study of the mandates system and the Covenant of the League, as a
professor of internationalrelations for some years, whether or not the
system of supervision envisaged in the Covenant and the Mandate is an
essential part of the system as a security, is one of the securities for the
faithful performance of the trust?
The PRESIDENT:Mr. Gross, that type of question has been dealt with
before: that is a mattcr for the Court to determine, not for any witness
to express hisview rtt alIt is one of the very questions which the Court
has to determine, and it cannot be put, unless of course you are seeking
to challenge his credibility as a witness-if you are not, it cannot be
put.
Rlr. G~oss: 1 understand very well, Sir, the admonition, but 1 had
thought that in the examination of the witness's view, as distiiipished of
course from such view or conclusion as the Court itself may ultimately
reach, with respect to these very broad and important matters to ~hich
he has testified on direct in connection with the norm, his view regarding
the nature, structure and important elements of the mandates system
would go to the question of the weight to be attached to his expert
testimony, citlicr as to credibility, not in the veracity sense of course but
inthe terms of the weight to be attached to it ; was my intention, but
1 wilInot press the point.
The PRESIDENT If that is the sole purpose of your intention, then the
question may be put, direct to the witness's credit, it being understood
that whatever reply he gives will be of no value whatever to the Court in
terms of the question it itself has to decide; it can only go tothe weight of
his evidence,
Mr. GROSS:That was my sole purpose, Mr. President, not in any way
to suggest or irnply usurpation of the Court's function or prerogative.
The PRESIDI~,NT V:ery well, you may put the question to the witness.
àIr.GROSS\:VouId J'OUcare to answer that question-your own view?
&Ir. Illansis~: 1 think the question was whether this obligation to
report to the Council was an essential part, an eçsential element, in the
mandates system.
Nr. G~oss: Whether in your view the obligation of reporting or inter-
national accountabilitywas an important part of the mandate structure.
Mr. MANNING An important part of the mandate structure was the
obligation to report to the Council.
Mr. G~oss: Are you now voicing or implying a legal conclusion?-this
is just for information.
Mr. MANNING 1thought you were asking me a legal question.
Mr. CROSS :o, Sir,that's the point. 1 am asking your opinion as a
political sociologist, political scientist, a professor of international
relations, a student of the mandates system and the Covenant of the
League, whether it is your opinion or not that the principle of interna-
tional accountability,and 1Say "was" because I do not want to prejudge
the issue before the Court of mhether or not theMandate is still in exist-
ence, was an important part of the mandates system.
Mr. J~ASNIP~G A: specific accountability to the Council was provided
for in the Covenant and the Mandate; that was an important part of it.
Mr. CROSS: YOU have no comment you wiçh to make with respect to
the principle of accountability as such? 1 am not trying to extract one
from you if yori do not wish to answer the question.
Mr. MANNING 1am very happy to answer if 1am allowed simpIy to WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 637
repeat that that principle, as embodied in that provision, was certainly
an essential part of the system.
Mr. GROSS : NOIV1tvould like to ask afew quick questions, and will try
to assure their brevity in terrns of the question asked. With respect to the
countries you enumerated, for example Canada, Cyprus, Belgium and
the United Kingdom, would you Say that in any or al1 of those States
the respec1:ive Governments, through officia1 action or policy, allot
status, rights, duties, privileges or burdens onthe basis of membership
in a group, class or race rather than on the basis of individual merit,
capacity or potential?
Mr. MANNING1 : should have to make a special study before I coiild
answer that question, it requires research.
hlr.GROSS: Would you Say, then, that iryour testimony with respect
to these coiintries that 1 have rnentioned it was not intended by you to
imply, nor did you seek the Court to infer, that in these countries which
you mentioned in the context of the reference to the norm, the practice
in these countrieswas by officia1policies or actions to carryout the policy
~vhich1 have just read?
Mr. MANNINGT : he whole point of my allusion to these countries was
to reveal rny view as to how far it wascompatible with the well-being of
ethnic groups to put thern in a situation in which they would find them-
selves, as il: were, with political bed-felloivs tha.t they might not have
chosen. 1 brought attention to the fact that thert: are countries in which
there are collective self-hoods,dynamic aiid limited, which are difficult
to accommodate within the scheme of what was rneant to be a relatively
homogeneoiis nationhood, and when you have this situation you can
have tension, you can have unhappiness, you can have discontent, and 1
was discussing whether anxiety on this score should be present in the
mind of a rnandatory in envisaging the ultirnate future for the peoples of
such a country as South West Africa. 1 gave warning as to what might
happen to ~ieopleswho were not put in the position to make their own
mature and independent choice on their own ultiinate destiny by finding
themselves instead in a situation which tliey would never have chosen
had they been sufficiently sophisticated, sufficiently politically aware, to
appreciate ~vhatthe choice was.
Mr. G~oss: 1think you have testified, 1fam not mistaken-correct
me if1am wrong, please, Professor Manning-tliat you do not yourself
clairn first-hand knowledge or expertise about conditions in South West
Africa-is tliat a correct rendition of your testimony?
Mr. MANNING 1:have only spent one week in the country in my life.
Mr. GROSSI :mean is this a correct rendition ofyour testimony? The
record will show, 1 justdid not want to misquoti: you.
Mr. NANNING :es, these were my words.
Mr. G~oss: With respect then, however, to the reading which you
have done to which you have referred, would you have any knowledge of
the situation with respect to the persons classified as Coloured in the
Territory as distiiiguished from Natives, or ?frhites, or Asiatics?
Mr. MANNING : have to confess, Sir, when we get down to detail, 1
am afraid I have reached a time of Iife whenI read a lot which I do not
remember, I have read the documents and 1 have read the Odendaal
Commission report but 1 do not retain the details in my rnind. If you
would like to put a specific question to me,1 will telyou whether 1can
answer it.638 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
3Ir.GROSS :es, of course, that woulbe only fair. Do you recall, Sir,
from the Odendaal Commission report, that it is stated that there are
some 12,700Coloureds in theTemtory?
Mr. MANNING ":oloured" meaning?
Mr. GROSS: Coloured isthe definition of the census classification
which has previously been read into the record and it means according to
census classification as follows:
the
"(a) Wlzites.-Perçons who in appearûnce obviously are, or ~vho
are generally acceptedas white persons, but excluding persons who,
although in appearance are obviously white, are generally accepted
as Coloured persons.
(b) Natives.-Persons who in fact are, or who are generally
accepted as members of any aboriginal race or tribe of Africa.
(c)Asiafics.-Xatives of Asia and their descendents.
(d) Co1oureds.-A11 persons not included in any of the three
groups mentioned above." (1, p. 109.)
So that to cIarify the point raibydyour question, Coloured are perçons
who "although in appearance are obviously White, are generallyaccepted
as Coloured persons" and "al1 persons not included in any of the three
groups mentioned nbove", specifically JVhitesas defined, Natives as
defined and Asiatics as defined-does this clarify what is meant by
Coloureds, Sir?
hlr.MANNING I:sounds to me like the ~Iassification which obtainç in
the Republlc of South Africa.
hlr. GROSS D:oes this clarify your question about what is meant by
Coloureds, Sir?
JIr.MANNING Yes.
Mr.GROS The Odendaal Commission report, 1have asked you whether
you are familiar ~4th it regarding Coloureds, and 1 believe that you said
that you would appreciate having the specific references called to your
attention, is that not correct, Sir?
>Ir.MANNIKG LV:ell1understand the question better.
Mr. GROSST : he first referenceI would have in mind is page 33,
paragraph 121 :
"The Coloureds, numbering 12,708and constituting 2.42 percent.
of the population,also have a strong Caucasian strain and for the
most part maintain a Western culturand way of life. Their language
ischiefly Afrikaans. A considerable number hail from the Cape
Province. The Coloureds are found mainly in the larger towns such
as Windhoek, Walvis Bay, Luderitz and Keetmanshoop, where they
areernployed or have their own businesses in industry. Many are
artisansin the building tradeA srnall proportion make a livehhood
as stock-farmers."
DO you know, Sir, from the basis of your own reading or study of the
Odendaal Commission report or othenvjse, whether it is proposed in the
Odendaal Commission report recommendations to have a separate
homeland for the Coloureds, Sir?Do you happen to know?
Mr. MANNING 1:ought to Sap that I am hazy about that. My re-
collection is-no 1 am not quite certain-1 think not.
Mr. GROSS Actually Sir, 1did not mean to.taxyour recollectionItis,
1 think, undisputed in the record that there is no such plan. The plan, WITSESSES AND EXPERTS 639
Sir, is it ncit or do you know, is that three Colotired townships or locations
will be prticlaimed at some unspeciîied date anil that the Coloureds \vil1
be persuaded there in terins of the Odendaal Commission report so as to
have a Say in their ou7naffairs-that was the language that has been
placed into the record. Are you farniliar. Sir, wviththose contemplated
provisions?
Mr. MANNIYG 1 should like to look at the specific passage.
Mr. G~oss: I will try to findastquickly as possible. 1did not havit
in rny notes because 1 did not anticipate tliat this question would arise.
1do not have rny own copy of the report with me.
ï'he references begin at pagro7 and followi~i paragraph 4r6, where
itsays "12. In Respect ofthe Coloureds ... The eoloured of South West
Africa are distributed over the ~vholeWhite arza, etc." 1 bvon't read it
unless you ~ish me to, Sir. Then, it goes on, paragraph418,paragraph
419 and then at the top of page 109, paragraph 420:
"That in due course the Coloureds be settled in the three above-
mentioned towns in properly planned and proclaimed Coloured
Townships where they shall enjoy the right to own property."
In any evt:nt, there is no question1take it, that the Odendaal Corn-
mission report does, as this indicates, reconimend or envisage the
establishment of Coloured Townships to which it is expected that the
Coloureds, as classified in the census, will be persuaded to go. Just to
complete the picture, therc is,in paragraph 422, reference to a rural
irrigation settlement for Coloured farmers, that, of course, 1 did not
rnean to exclude for the sake of completeiiess, 1mention it so that there
will be no confusion on it. Now, Sir, ~vithrespect to the persons classified
as Coloured, my question relates to your evaluation if any, as an expert,
with regard to problems of what you cal1 differentiation, whether the
problem of the Coloureds, for whom no homelands are contemplated,
are an exception to any of your testimony regarding the relationship
between the White and the Native groups. Ilroultl the problems preçented
by the Coloureds in the society of South West Africa, if you have an
opinion on this, be definable and analysable on the same terms as
your analysis would apply in your own view to the relationship between
the White and the Native groups?
Mr. MANNIBG I: so far as 1 have corne here as an expert, 1 have
testified to the broad principle on the applicability or non-applicability
of the norm of non-differentiation.It woiild be quite improper for me
to pose as in any sense an expert on the detail of the way in which this
philosophy is being applied. It may be that if 1 knew more about it,1
could give an adequate explanation for everything that has been done,
but it would be quite wrong for me to stand here and purport to be a
source of enlightenment for this Court on the reasons for which particular
things are done in the fulfilment of a policy which seems to me to be the
wise policy inits basic philosophy.
Mr. GROSS: And, Sir, in considering the validity or othenvise of its
basic philosophy, 1 take it from what you testified that, for any reason
satisiactory to yourself, you did not regard it asof significance to consider
the prohlem of the Coloureds either as a speciaI riroblem or othenvise-is
that fair tcSay so?
&fr.MANN~N Ges, 1should think the Coloureds are a speciai problem,
as are the Hereros, and as are the Ovambo, and so forth. They are indeed
a special problem.640 SOUTH WEST AFRlCX
Mr. G~oss: !Vould you Say, Sir, that the Whites are a special problem?
hlr.MAXKING 1should have thought policy in relation to thM'bites
was again a problem.
MT.CROSS: Now, Sir, that leads to the following question, if1 rnriy,
Mr. President. 1believe you testified that, in expounding your philosophy
or expertise, various groups could not achieve their1 am paraphrasing
from my notes, aspirations, and1have in quotation marks "if they were
al1 administrativelyto be treated as if they were interchangeable1'-is
this a fair rendition of your testimony?
Alr. JIAXSISG:1 certainly said that if groups were treated as inter-
changeable it irnplied that the uniqueness of each group was being
overlooked.
Mi- . ROSS: Now, Sir, 1 tvas interested and thought possibly the
honourable Court might be, as to what the significance is that you seck
the Court to draw from the word "interchangeable" in that context?
Mr. MANNING : am tempted to quote the nlriter wlio said tlïat the
doctrine of human equality was the convenient ~nethodological fictioof
the administrator, pointing out that, in the Christiaview at any rate,
every individual is unique, no two people are interchangeable or com-
mensurable-I am tempted to quote that. My point is, when 1 use the
word "interchangeable", that if you do not recognize the difference
between the different groups, you will feel it won't rnatter very much
tvhich ofthem you are dealing with when pou apply particular policies.
hIr.G~oss: Then, with respect to the interchangeability aspeof your
testimony-would that relate to individuals as well as to groups?
Mr. MANNING Iliithin a group there might for some purposes be
matters in respect of which the individual members of that group could
be treated as intcrciiangeabIc.
Mr. GROSS :O you regard, Sir, in the sense in which you use this term,
1 -.il1 not press thi1,think, beyond this question,al1 Jl'hites as inter-
changeable?
hIr. A~ANKISG N:O,that was not the purport of rny answer. Mgranswer
was thatthere are situations in whichal1Whites might be interchange-
able. For example, il therewas a la~vdetermining where IVhites might
reside, it might be necessary to see whether a particular candidate for
residence inthe area concerned was IVhite, but if he were \mite, it would
not matter which Whitc man he was.
ilIr.GROSS :Othat you are really speaking in the context that the
word "interchangeablc" referred to those practices and policies which
reflect the concept of apartheid-is that what y011meant by the word
"interciïangeable"?
Mr. ~IAX~~IN1 Gspoke of the non-interchangeability of ethnic groups.
hir.GROSS:Did you understand, Sir, that the Applicants were con-
tending in respect of their rule that groups were not or were interchan-
geable as the casemay be?
BIr.MAXXIKG:1certainly did understand, at least on one interpretation
of a principle of non-differentiationthat groups would not be differ-
entiated between and would be treated as interchangeable.
Rlr. GROSS: 1see, SirThat is asfar asyou care to go or do you wish to
go further inclarifying what the concept or terrri "interchangeabliç in
that connection?
hlr.MANNING N:O, Ithink in that context 1 have evplained what 1
meant by the term. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 641
Rfr.G~oss: Then, with respect to anothcr point of your testimony, 1
think you çaid, did you not-you expressed a maxim which, if 1caught
it correctly, \vas-"Takecare of the dignity of the group and the dignity
of the individual takes care of itself". 1s that substantially correct?
Rlr. MANNISG 1:think I said one might almost suggest itas amaxim.
Mr. GROSÇ: Now, do you think it could be turned around aswell and
put almost as a maxim that: "take care of the dignity of the individual
and the dignity of the group takes care of itself"?
hIr. MANNIKG 1 feel very doubtful about that one.
Mr. CROSS Y:ou would question that?
Mr. MANNIHG Y:es, 1think I would cal1it adolescent scepticism.
Mt-.G~ors:That is what you referred to, then, when you said, at page
60j, supra, of the verbatim record of14 October :
". . . the attitude which insists that only persons are individual
human beings. Adolescent scepticism içwhat 1 cal1 this, or naivc
realism."
1sthis what you were referring to just now-thattestimony?
BIr.MAXNIXG 1:used the term "adolescent scepticism" also at another
point inmy evidence, when 1 was speaking of the attitude of thoçe ~vho
thought thatthe uplifting of peoples unable to stand by themselves waa
matter of e~iablingindividuals to stanby themselves.
hfr.G~oss :Isee, Sir. And, this is my final question, Professor Manning,
~~~ouldyou consider that, in determining the relationship between the
individual, the group and the socialorder, in the contest of South We~t
Africa, the role and freedom, specifically limitations of freedom, upon
persons because of colour or race, are based upon and reflect a higher
priority being given to the goup than to the individual? Would you
agree with that proposition?
Mr. ~~AXSISG: With al1 respect, 1 am afraid 1 find very great diffi-
culty in answering the question so worded. I do not think in terms of
"limitations" imposed upon people because of their colour or race.1 do
not think ofitin these terms.1think of the Mandatory as having to have
an over-al1 policy for trying to advance the well-being of a11the peoples,
and then 1 would go and see what are the implicationsof this policy, and
what opportunities can be given, in what places,and to whom. 1do not
think of limitations being laid upon people, 1 think of opportunities
being provided.
Nr. GROSS: This, 1 am afraid, does require a footnote question. Are
OU aware, from your readings about South West Africa, of limitations
placed upon economic freedoms and freedom of movement in South West
Africa on a non-JVhite basis?
hlr. ~~ANNISG: 1 wotifd agree that in South West Africa, as in al1
countries, there is Iegislation ~vhichdoes determine what people are free
to do and lvhat they are not free to do, and this legislation can be de-
scribed as impoçing limitations on their freedom, in so far asthere are
limits. But '1would notsay that there was anything particularly special
in the case of South West Africa in this regard.1 would say that there
are people who are classified in categories and therislegislation which
determines what are the opportunities for these several categories.
Mr. G~oss: And the limitations of frcedom in South West Africa, so
far as you are aware, do they or do they not reflect, and are they not
based entirely on ethic classification, specificrilly, example, ta the642 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
limitation in the job reservation acts with regard to employment in the
mining industry?
Nr. MANNING 1:hould havethought that the regulations in any given
area were determined by which cornrnunity wm seen as pararnount as
regards its interests in that area. But 1would also have thought that the
over-al1scheme of what was best for the country as a whole might affect
the question of what opportunities particular categories of the population
had in particular places.
Nr. GROSSA : nd by reference to what group is paramount, do you
mean that the limitations or restrictions upon job opportunities or
promotion are, in the case of the specific question to which 1 have
referred, based upon the fact that the Whites, being pararnount in the
modern economy,seek to protect themselves from the cornpetition of the
non-imites by restricting the jobs to which they may hope to aspire?
Wouid you agree to that?
MY. MANNING 1am afraid that Iespressed myself badly. 1 tried to
Say that those whose interests are pararnount-not they who are para-
mount, but those whose interests are paramount in a givenarea-and1
was thinking more particularly of the areas of the undeveloped peoples,
areas in which the opportunities are reserved for the..,
I know the situation is rather more complex in the area which is
described as the White area, but 1would not have thought thatthe basic
principle was different in this case. 1 should have thought that in this
case, equally, the policy of the Mandatory was to do what is best for the
country as a whole, which involved in this particular case providing a
source of revenue from which to finance the development of the country,
which meant encouraging European enterprise to establish itself in that
and it might, in some cases, involve limitations upon the freedomlicofions
particular individuds, but on the over-aii pictur1 would Say we have,
in the kind of law 1 have studieda masim called "hard cases make bad
law". You ask yourself: 1s thisa Wiselaw? And then you go on to Say:
What can we do about the hard cases, if any? Biit you do not necessarily
modify the Iaw merely because there are some individuals tvho find it
operates to their disadvantage.
Mr. GROSS:1 have no further questions, hlr. President.
The PRESIBENT:Thank you, Mr. Gross. Does any Member of the
Court desire to put any questions?
Mr. RABIE: 1 have no re-examination, >Ir. President.
The PRESIDENT: 1s it desired that the Professor should rernain in
attendance, Mr. Gross?
blr. GROSSN : O,Mr. I'resident.
The PRESIDENTI:n those circurnstances 1think the Professor \vilbe
released from further attendance.Thank you, Professor, you are released
from further attendance.
Mr. MANKINGT :hank you, Mr. President.
The PRESIDENT h:fr. Rabie, who is your nest witness?
3lr.RABIE:AIr.President, unfortunately we have no other witness
available today. It was not anticipated that this witness would be
disposed of before lunch. We rather regret it, but it would be impos-
sible ...
The PRESIDENTT : hat is understandable, Mr. Rabie. Perhaps it is not
so unfortunate with the weekend just about to commence. WITXESSES AND EXPERTS 643
hlr. Groçs, 1 wonder whether you could assist me. IVhen you spoke
about the Coloured people, at page 420, 1 cannot at the moment find
the reference whcre you said that the Coloured were to be persuadecl to
move to the Coloured townships.
hlr. G~oss: 1 am sorry, hlr. President. Could1 supply iton hfonday
morning?
The PHEÇIDIS IrTs:that would be quite sufficient. Thank you very
niuch. 1 cannot find it myself at the moment.
llr. G~oss:It is in a section different from the one t1have referred
to, SirMay 1 detain the Court, Sir, jusfor few minutes because 1 think
I am on the trail of it.
The PRESIDEN YT:s, certainly.
Mr. GI~OSS Y:es, it is pag119,paragraph 452.
[Public hearing of18October rg6j]
Mr. MUJ.LER hir. President, we have the last witness today, that is,
Professor Possony, whose evidence will also rclate to the Applicants'
Subrnissioils Nos. 3 and 4.The points to which his evidence will be
directed were indicated in a letter 14 October 196jlto the Applicants
as being the following:
(a) the absence of a general practice of a suggested norm and/or
standards of non-discrimination and non-separation as relied upon
by thi: Applicants;
(b) that the attempted application of such a suggested norm andlor
standards would in many instances have an adverse effect on the
well-being and progress of the persons concerned; and
(c) that on the basis of thc facts concerning South West Africa as on
record from other evideiitial sources, the Terntorfalls within the
instanccs mentioned in (b).
However, Mr. Presiclcnt, in a letter of subsequent dat16 Octoberl,
the Applic;~nts were informed that Professor Possony will no longer deal
with the third mattcr mcntioned in the earlier lettand, that is, he will
not deal ïwith the situation in South West Africzi.
1 may indicate tothcCourt that Professor Possony's eviclcnce will fa11
mainly into three groups. The firstis a brief historical development of
group relations in the world; the second, an analysis of certain situations
regarding ilifferential treatment, or otherwise, of population groups in
various parts of the worlcl; ancl the third, attempts in the international
sphere to formulate uniform objectives with regard to the treatment of
individuals and cthnic groups.
Mr. President, this evidence, as the Couwiilappreciate, covers a very
wide fieldand Professor Possony would have to ri:fer to maidocuments.
He has, however, for convenience, recorded his documentary sources by
way of notes, although the documentary sources are also before the
Court.
3iay 1 ask that Professor Possony corne forward, Mr. President, and
make both the declarations provided for in the Rules.
The PRESIDENT:Certainly. Rlr. Gross.
l See XIIPart IV.644 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. G~oss: Mr. President, perliaps it would be the preference of the
honourable President to have the witness make his declarations before
making comment?
The PRESIDENT :es, hlr. Gross. Let the decliiratiobe made.
Mr. POSSONY n my capacity as a witness 1 solemnly declare upon
my honour and conscience that 1will speak the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth. In my capacity x an expert 1 solemnly
declare upon my honour and conscience that mg. statement will be in
accordance with my sincere belief.
The PRESIDEKT M:r. Gross.
Mr. G~oss:Mr.President, reserving the right to object, the Applicants
respectfully urge upon the Court to apply, with regard to the evidence
proffered for this witness, the procedure indicated in the statement
regarding procedure announced by the honourahle President on 24 hlay
1965' S.pecifically, Mr. President, the Applicants refer to paragraph 3
thereof, as follows:
"3. In cauing any cvitness or expert the Respondent ivould in-
dicate in Court, with reasonable particuiarity,the point or points
to which the evidence of each witness or expert'will be directed, and
the particular issue or issues which such evidence was said to be
relevant."
The Applicants submit, Mr. I'resident, that the statemenof the point
or points to which the evidence of this witness and expert is said to be
directed, farfrom being indicated with reasonable particularity, are
obscure, and that the Respondent has not indicated, in Court or other-
wise, the particular issue or issues to which the evidence of this wivitness
is said to be relevant.
In respect of paragraph (a) of the letteof14 October, which has been
read into the record by Mr. hiuller, learned counsel, it is not clear, to
the Applicants at least, what is meant by the juxtaposition of the
phrases "general practice" of "standards". It is understood, Sir, and the
Applicants, as has been previously indicated in Court, have no objection
in principle-if the Court wishes, subject to the will of the Court-if
Respondent deems it desirable or necessary to continue its legal argument
concerning the sources of international law,with respect to the Appli-
cants' alternative contention under Article38, paragraph (b)-to con-
tinue such argument through a witness or expert, the Applicants have
indicated no objection to that course. However, with respect to the
question of the testimony proffered regarding standards, this point to
which the testimony is said to be directed is indeed obscure and un-
intelligible to the Applicants, in view of the fact thin their pleadings,
the Applicants have sought to make clear the sources of standards, in-
cluding the United Nations Charter and other sources set forthat Iength
in the Reply and elaborated in the Oral Proçeedings, the sources upon
which the AppIicants rely in support of their contention that Article 2
of the Mandate should be interpreted in the light of standards which
concededly and undisputably exist, in the form of the United Nations
Charter, resolutions, other international instrumentand so forth.
Therefore, itisnot clear to the Applicants, with respect, what point,
if any, is really the point to which the evidence is sought to be directed
See Minutes, VIII, 46. WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 645
in respect of the "standards" branch of the Applicants' major argument,
as distinguished from the alternative branch of the argument with fespect
to the international legal norm.
Secondly, Sir, the obscurity, in our submission, is deepened not only
by the terms in which the proffered evidence is cast, but also by the
formulation of paragraph (b) of'the letter, which setsout as a point to
which the evidence of this witness isto be directed-
"That the attempted appIication of such a suggested norm and/or
standards would inmany instances have an adverse effect on the
well-being and progress of the perçons concerned."
Xow, this would seem also, with respect, Mr. President, to cal1 for some
elaboration or specification, some reasonable particularity, as to what is
intended to be established for paragraph (b) as formulatcd.
This confusion, finally, is compounded by the deletion from the
points of sub-paragraph (c)which, in accordance with the letter received
by the Applicants on 16 October l,seems to be the culminating point to
which the testimony was to have been directed, the issue with regard to
South West Africa. Xow this has, by letter received 16 October, been
deleted. In the Applicants' subrnission thedeletion of sub-paragraph (c)
further obscures the intent of paragraph (6).
Therefore, for these reasons, Mr. President, and reserving the right to
object, it would be the Applicants' respectful subrnission that the Court
might well see fitto request from the Respondent a statement of reason-
able particiilarity with regard to the actual pointorpoints to which the
evidence is directed, other than-unless the Court pleases to have it
othenvise-the sources of international custom in the sense of Article
38 (1)(b) ofthe Statute of the Court. if that isregarded by the honourable
Court as a fit and appropriate subject for testimony, rather than for
argument. 1 apoiogize for the length of this but 1did want to make my
problems clear, with respect, hlr. President.
The PRESIDENT M r. Gross, are you rnaking an application that the
Court should adjournuntil you obtain further particulars of the evidence
to be given?
Mr. G~oss: Sir, 1 would not venture to do that, nor, with respect, do
1 think it necessary. If, howcver, it would be possible for counsel to
indicate with more particularity than is done in this formulation of the
remaining two paragraphs of the letter which has been read into the
record, it would, at the very least, Six, aid the Applicants to the better
understanding of the evidence as it is led, and in preparing for cross-
examination or comment, or other appropriate action thereafter.
The PRESIDEKT T:he procedure which the Court indicated was that
before a witness was called Respondent would state with reasonable
particularity the point or points to which the evidence of each witness
urould be directed and the issues concerned. The issues have been made
quite clear: they are directed to the issues which are involved in your
Submissions 3 and 4.As to whether the Respondent has indicated with
reasonable particularity the point or points to wliich the evidence of this
witness is directed, depends upon a reading of paragraphs (a) and (b)
of the letter to ahich you refer.
The Applicants' case is that theres a nom or standard which ha been
lSee XII, PartIV.646 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
defincd in its Reply. Ttis stated in the oral argument by the Applicants
that the norm or standards are in content the same. In its legal effect,
however, the distinction was made by the Applicants that the standard
did not have the same effect as the norm, but it would noiietheless have
the snme content as the norm.
The Rcspondent seeks to establish that there is no such norm, and part
of its case is to show what the practice isin respect of non-discrimination
and non-separation in different countries throughout the world. At the
same time it seeks to establish that since the Mandate demands of the
hiandatory that it shall promote to the utmost the ~vell-beingand social
welfare and development of the people, that any alleged norm which is
inconsistent with the discharge ofthat duty can have no application, or,
alternatively, that such evidence would go to establish that there isno
such norm at all. It seems that paragraphs (a) and (b) do, in generality,
indicate that that is the general course which the evidence is to follow
and the purpose for which it is to be adduced.
If, rit nny tirne, you fear tlint you are prejudicby the nature of the
evidence which is led then, hlr.Gross, you may rest assured that the
Court will listen to any application that you have to make and, of course,
as the evidence is led you will be entitled to make whatever objections
you think to any particular question or the response to any question
which is put. 1do not think that the Court can do more than indicate
that, at the moment. More than once the Court has said that if evidence
is led, and if there is any substantive question of relevance in respectof
the sarne, that relevance \vilI be detennined by the Court itself when it
proceeds to its deliberations. 1 tliink that in a case such as this that is
the wisest course to pursue and not to seek to make any rulings upon
evidence when it is of such a substantive character as is involved in the
objection or in the application which you are making.
1 sliall ask Mr. Muller whether he is able to indicate with more partic-
ularity the general scheme of the evidence of the witness in ordcr to
enable hlr. Gross both to prepare for cross-examination and, at the same
time, to determine what objections hc should makc to any particular
part of the evidence as it is ledJlr. Aluller.
81r. MULLER : s the Court pleases. Mr. President, the evidence will
indicate, as ver. broadly stated in the letters to the Applicants, that
there is no practice or usage in the world observing a norm of non-dis-
crimination or non-separation as contended for by the Applicants. For
that purpose the witness will deal with positions in various countries in
the world. He will indicate to the Court certain situations where one has
different population groups that have to be treated differently. 1-Iewill
indicate what measures are operated in such countries for differential
treatment of different population groups. That evidence, Mr. President.
wc contend, will show that there is no usage in the world observing the
norm of non-discrimination or non-separation as contendcd for by the
Applicants.
The PRESIDEST: hlr. Gross.
hlr. G~oss: Jlr. President. In deference to the comments made by the
honourable President. I had started my comments with the reservation
of the right to object, but 1did not object, Sir.
IVith regard, however, to the statement jrist made and without
prolonging the colloquy, which 1 am sure the Court will appreciate my
not doing, the response of hlr.Muller, if 1 may Say, highlights the diffi- WITKESSES AXD EXPERTS '547
cuIty. His reference was solely to thematter cif the international legal
norm whii:h, of course, is, as the Court is well aware, an alternative and,
in effect, a subsidiary argument-an alternative and cumulative argu-
ment. No reference has been made to tht: (luestion of whether or not
anything in this witness's testimonyisiritended to relate to the Appli-
cants' main argument with regard to the conceded esistence of inter-
national coriventions and so forth, which are contendby the Applicants
to result i11standards which should be applied in the interpretation of the
Alandate. Xo reference has been made .to the major branch of the
Applicants' case in respect of anything to which this witness now said
to be directing his testimony. Thisthink,illustrates the difficulty which
the Applicants perceive in this formulation, Mr. President.
1 will not, however, press the objection and will attempt to take
advantage of the l'resident's indication that the objection can be made
in respect of anyparticular questions.
The PRESIWEX Tonly have to add, Mr. GI.OSSt,hat the sources on
which you rely to establish thenorm are the saine sources on which you
rely to establish the standard. That is clear froIV, pages 493 of the
Reply onwards, and if evidence is led to the norni it rnay well have a
relevance to the esistence or the content, if not the existeiice then the
content of any standard.1think the proper course is to allow the evidence
to proceed and to take your objections asyou think fit as the evidence
is led.
hlr. G~ciss:Blr.President, may 1 then. respectfully reserve the right
also to make appropriate comment at a suitable occasion with regard to
the relevance ...
The PRESIDBNT Certainly,Mr, Gross. That right has been reserved to
you-to make cornrnents upon the eviderice. Obviously, comment asto
relevance ofevidence falls within the permission which has alrcady been
accorded.
Mr. GROSS :'hank you, $Ir. President.
The PRESIDENT M:r. Muiler, wilyou proceed?
Alr. MUI.LER: As theCourt pleases.ProfessorYossony, your full names
are Stefan Thomas Possony?
Mr. POSSONYY : es, Sir.
hIr.MULLERY :OU are a citizen of the United States of America?
Mr. POSSONYY : CS.
Mr. MUI,LER W:hat are your academic qualifications?
Mr. Possolvu:I am a Doctor ofPhilosophp of the University of Vienna
and I hold an honorary degree of Doctor of Law.
Mr. MULLER:What are your fields of study?
Bir. POSSONY : studied anthropologyand ethnology as minors atthe
University of Vienna,psychology and philosophy as majors, and 1wrote
my doctor's dissertation in sociology.
Air. MULLER:Arc there any special fields iiiwhich pu have done
research and teaching?
hIr. POSSOXY1 : have done research and teaching in the fields of inter-
national relations, sociology, modern history and comparative con-
stitutionalç1 have done research in economics.
The PRESIDENT: 1 wonder whether the witness could speak a little
louder.
Mr. MULLER1: am sorry, Mr. President. Mt-. Possony, would OU
please speak a little louder?648 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Have you, in the course of your studies, research and teaching,made a
particular study ofmanagement provisions ofdifferentpopulation groups
in the world?
hlr. POSSONY F:or rnany years 1 have worked on the subject of ethnic
problems and the relevant constitutional and legal provisions for the
management of ethnic groups in multi-national societies.
hlr. MULLER W:hat is your present position?
hfr. POSSONY1 : am Director of the International Political Studies
Programme at the Hoover Institution for War, Revolution and Peace
at Stanford University, California.
Mr. MULLER : hat previous positions have you held?
Mr. POSSONY1:was Special Adviser to the United States Air Force,
consultant to other United States Government Agencies, including the
White House, for many years on political sciences, including handling of
natural science data for the purposeofpolicy formulation. 1 was also a
member of a research group, many years ago, working for President
Roosevelt on migration and population problems. 1 held the position of
Carnegie Fellow at the Institute for Advanced Çtudyin Princeton, New
Jersey. 1 was Professor of International Politics at the Graduate School
of Georgetown University. 1 was, and still ani, an associate of the
Foreign Policy Research Institute at the University of Pennsylvania. I
was also Visiting Professor at the University of Cologne, Germany.
hlr. MULLER :ave you made a study of the importance, or otherwise,
of ethnic group differences?
Mr. POSSONY Y:es, 1 have studied this problem rather extensively for
many years.
Rlr. MULLERD :o you consider it important to recognize ethnic group
differences in pluralistic societies?
Mr. POÇÇONY:The diversity of mankind rests upon ethnic differences.
Thegreat progress which mankind has been able to make in the last five
to ten thousand years in many ways was conditioned by this diversity.
Thegreat ideal is to preserve that diversity asone of mankind's greatest
assets and no group or nation aims to abandon its distinct identitAt
the came time, diversity and ethnic differences have been the cause of
much interna1 and international conflict. Most struggles which have
arisen have ostensibly or really been related to ethnic factors. Within
States that comprise different ethnic groups, ethnic conflicts or, as they
are also called, national struggles are a foremost and frequent experience.
ethnic political structures tend to break up.t under control, multi-
Multi-ethnic societies presuppose the explicit recognition of ethnic
difference. Such societies require institutions that are based upon and
manage the ethnic diversity. In addition, an effective organization to
ensure the collaboration of different ethnic groups is needed to bring
about mutually beneficial economic progress and to provide for each
individual an intact social communityof his own. If such communities
are disrupted, or if the relationship between the individual and his
community is disorganized, man becomes psychologically alienated, that
is,he no longer belongs to his group.
Jn surnmary, ethnic differences dernand recognition.If rnulti-ethnic
societies are to function well such differences miist be handled through
institutional arrangements.
hlr.~~ULLER: From your studiesand experience, can you say whether W1TNESSI:S AND EXPERTS 649
different population groups generally tend to merge or to deveIop
separately?
bIr. POSSONY I: most instances population groups differ from each
other in one or more characteristic. Some of these traits are natural in
the sense that they do not evoka particular attitude, like language when
its usageisnot threatened. Others rnay be meaningful and evoke value
attachments, like religion. The urge to a separate Iife is strong if differ-
ences are conceived more sharply. On the other hand, ifthere are close
contacts differences, which so far were ignored, may be identified. Ethnic
groups tend to have their own territories, theirown economic systems
and interests, their own political structures and their own history. Even
if there were no distinctsychological make-up or a cultural distinction,
and even if there were religious unity,many factors would militate for
separateness and have always done so in the past, except in those periods
when continuity was broken.
However, catastrophes may also lead to thr: strengthening of ethnic
self-consciousness.
A great deal of the inter-ethnic political struggle, including war, is
derived from fear about ethnic extinction or from a desire to preserve an
independent set-up. The struggle itself strengthens ethnic consciousness.
The struggles within the group often are concerned with the problem of
separating the group from another.
Mr. MULLER: Now, is separation, as mentioned by you, striven for as
between groups only, or are there examples of separation also within a
larger groilp ?
Mr. POSSOXY:In one way or another, sometirnes formally, sorneti~nes
not, even highly uniform groups tend to have interna1 separation. Sep-
arations are aln~ost routine if, in a group that is not uniform, that has
kept together because of geographical or political conditions, there occur
strong differences, for example, of a religious or racial type.
The most durable of such systems has been the Indian caste system
which was referred to for the first time in the year 1B.G.This system,
it seems, was more or less fully developed along the basic principles of
professional separateness and strict endogamy more than 2,000 years
ago. The origins ofthesystem arestill obscure. Whether or not the origi-
nal castes were distinct racial or ethnic groups is a moot point because,
under the existing system, castes did become breeding isolates. Through
serologicalanalysis it has been determined that, othewhole, endogamy,
ormatrimonial separateness,'was preserved rather strictly and effectively.
The caste system exists above al1in lndia, but also in Pakistan, Ceylon
and Burma. Hetween 350 million and 400 million people are involved.
The Coristitution of Pakistan, in Article 29-this is printed in the
Inter-Parliamentary Union, Constitutio nadlParliamentary In/orma-
lion1,956 ,ages 137 ff.-which deals with the promotion of social and
economic well-being of the people, stipulates that such well-being be
secured "irrespective of caste, creed or race". fiIoreover, the "basic
necessities of life" are to be provided to al1citizens "irrespective of caste,
creed or race". Castes are recognjzed alsby Article 204 of the Pakistan
Constitution. This is quoted in HctmanRights Yearbook,1956,on page
---.
The Indian Constitution rnakes far more substantial references to
castes, and this will be discussed later.
Mr. MULLER Y:es.Now, has the caste system not been abolished?650 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Mr. Possolr~: XIr. President, there is a niisconception that the caste
system has been abolished. The caste system, in fact, is deeply embedded
in the social reality. It may or rnay not disappear in the process long
evolution,but itcannot be "dis-established" becauseitis, if nothinelse,
a frame of mind and a pattern of behaviour.
However, untouchability, which is one of the mariifcstations of the
caste system, and isbascd largely on the notion of cleanlineand purity,
has been abolished. For example, Article20 of the Yakistan Constitution
says thst the practice of untouchability "in any form is forbidden and
shall be declaredby law to be an offence".
'li'hat this means is clarified in the Indian Untouchability OffeAct,
of 8 May 1955 ,hich is quoted in Inter-ParliameritaryU~&ion C,onstitzt-
lional and Pauliamentary Informatio?.~Igj5, pages 11g-124. This Act, in
essence, forbids that the caste system be practisedby preventing mem-
bers of the so-called untouchablc castesinter dia, to enter and pray in
places of worship of their own religion, to enter shops, restaurants, hotels
and places of public entertainment, and to stop those other practices
which, in previous legal language, for esample, in an Act of 1950 in
Travancore and Cochin, are referred to as "social disabilities".
This Act on untouchability is only IO years oId, hence the condition
which it outlaws must have cxisted until 1955 . ut even ifthe practice
had disappeared within the lastIO years,it wns stark reality for hundreds
and possibly thousands of years in one ofthc mojt populous and plural-
istic societies in the world. India's internal developments have generally
been very peaceful, however.
The system,in mp view, has been one of effective internal separation,
but it was not successful in terms of devcloprnent. Both the Indian and
Pakistani Constitutions now envisage support to the scheduled castes in
order to promote the socio-economic development of their mernbers.
The PKESIUENT It is difficul1,know, when n person has s habit of
speaking quickly, Professor, to alter the habit, buyou do speak rather
rapidly and itis not always easy to catch both the words and thc sentence
which yoü are addressing.
>Ir. POSSOXYT : apologise,air.President, and will speak very slo\vt.ly.
The PKESIDEKT X:ot at all, butifyou could speak more slowly, it
would be appreciated.
Mi- M.ULLER :rofessor Possony, does one findseparation in the world
along religious linesi
hlr. Possolru: There hns been in Europe a long and highly relevant
history of separation aIong religious lines. The problem that arose after
the Reformation ivastoseparate the Catholics £rom the Protestants. The
edict of Nantes, irjgS, combined features of separation with features of
non-discrimination. In 1648, the right to cmigrate was confirmed, to-
gether with the equality of Catholic and Protestant States within the
Roman Empire. Diiring the 19th century, retigious separation was
gradually implemented in thc Ottoman Empire. Due to the drying up of
religious beliefs, the issue lost significancein Europe, but remained potent
in Asia-for esample, the separation of India frorn Pakistanwas largely
upon a religious basis. Conflicts like that between the Xegro and Arabic
provinces of the Sudan rnay or may not have a racial foundation, they
certainly have very strong rcligious overtones.
Mr. MULLER: Bas there been any significant separation along ethnic
lines? WITSESSES AND ESPERSS 651
Mr. POSSONY Y:es, there certainly habeen such separation.Of al1the
causes of separntion, the ethnic factor is the most important; for esam-
ple, the problem can be studied in the history of such peoples as the
Armenians and the Basques who, inthe face of aturbulent history, have
maintained tIieir identity for several thousands of years.
To savt: tirne1 shall discuss the problem through the history of the
Jews; Jewish history can be traced back for almost3,000years. Separate
identity was preserved in the face of three major dius@orasand a con-
siderable number of subsequent esodus cases. 'rime and again the Jews
lost part of their populationdue to mass canï~ersion,andthere hasbeen
a steady streanl of individual conversions. Groiip conversion to Judaism
added neiv ethnic cornponents. There are, therefore, differencin what
may Ioosely be called the "purity" between the Jewish groups living in
different geographic locations.
Adherence to the Jewish faith during periocls of persecution creaied
many dificulties and dangers, and may have meant deatli. In those
periods, when assimilation to surroundiiig ethnic groups was easy and
sometimes encouraged, Jews had a chance to eliminate themselves,
through painleçs rnethods, aç a distinct group. In view of the long dura-
tion of Jcwish history, it is therefore remarkable that investigations,
carried out with the most modern means-this means the analysis of
blood groups and fingerprint patterns,both of which arestrictly heredi-
tary-have proved that the Jews managed to a considerable extent to
preserve their ethnic identity.
At one tirne, Mr. President, the ghettos reflectea Jewish desire for
separate dcvelopment, at other tirnes, of course, this was a result of the
similar clcsire on the part of the non-Jcws. Time and again the Jews
either obtained autonomy or practiscd autonomous self-government of
their own.
Inthe nioclerripcriod, the desire of the Jews for separate development
u7asmost strongly manifested in their wish for their own territory. This
wish resultcd in the establishment of Israel as the framework in which
the separate development of a Jewish nation could bc pursued. The
establishment of lsrael \vas accompanied by the separating out of Jews
from other ethnic groups, and the divisionof Palestine into anArab and
a jewish part-al1 this waç donc under United Nations aegis.
The desirc for territoryalso was manifested within the Soviet Union,
where the autonomous province of Eirobidzhan was established some
30 years a.go. Jcwish history proves that the will for separate devclop-
ment and separate existence has been estremely strong and persistent,
despite thefact that there ur,îno common territory, and that even com-
mon langriage \vas lost. escept in ritual. The Jewish historian, Simon
Dubnov, who was killed by the Nazis in Riga during 1941 , 7ascorrect
when he spoke about a "natural instinctofnational preservation".
llr. >IUI.LER :ew, in the light of these esaniples mentionedby you,
can you Say whether in history there has been a general trencl towards
separation of population groups?
Mr. POSSOXYM : r. President, al1world history is tied together with the
desire of ~ieoplesto be by tliemselves, not to lie subject to forcign do-
mination, and not to be dispersed by concluerors1 do not argue that the
urge for ethnic separateness was thonly important factor. But the desire
furIn the 16th century, during the Rcformation, which in some ways was652 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
religious separatism, the religious movement and ethnic consciousness
merged, and a new age of nationalism was born.
Using the term "nationalism", it is importantta differentiate it from
political and aggressive nationalism, which is an idcologyof expansion;
in its sociological meaning the term merely signifies that there arenations
and that they want to run their own affairsIn this sense, nationalismis
the opposite to irnperialism, it is self-limiting and not expanding.
The modern European nations, asbveknow them, had arisen by the
turn of the 16th century, and resulted in the gradua1 political unification
of ethnically and linguistically closely related political groups; nation
soon became a democratic concept.
h'ationalism-and 1 mean this as distinguished frorn imperialism-
adopted the idea of non-separation, inasmuch as it aimed at the merging
of related ethnic groups into one nation. In some cases, like Switzerland,
merging was restricted to political institutions,within a cIearly delineated
geographical area, and to the subjective factors of nationhood, notably
the will to live together, so that we observe the unique phenomenon of
a mu1 ti-ethnic nation.
Early in the 16th century, the concepts of nationhood and national
uniformity were formulated more or less explicitly; throughout this
period, and into the 17th century, there were the first national wars, in
the proper meaning of the word.
In 1776, the principle of independence was asserted by the United
States-or, more accurateiy , by the American revolutionaries-and it
was affimed thatthe laws of nature and of "nature's God" entitle people
to a separate and equal stationThe term separation was used to describe
the act of becoming independent.
During the Frsnch Revolution, and in the Napoleonic period, in elab-
oration of the concept of popular sovereignty, the concept of the riation
state was born; during the Congress of Vienna, the nationality principle
was invoked for the benefit of France and Poland.
Mr. MULLER : ill you, very briefly, tell the Court how the nationality
principle developed further?
Mr. POSSONY The early part of thrgth century saw the independence
movements. of Greece and Poland-of course, 1 am mentioning only
illustrative examples. Democratic revolutionaries, likehfazzini, and not
so democratic rulers like Napoleon III, placed increasing emphasis on
the principleof nationality.The concept that each natio nçentitledto
its own State, and that each State ought to have its own nation, was
formulated in the mid-19th century by the Swiss international jurist,
Bluntschli. Mancini, an Italian international jurist, argued that inter-
national law be based on the reality of nationhood. Liberalism was a
national rnovement; and the democratic movement which airned at the
rule by the people, conceived of people bothin social and ethnic terms.
This alsowas the period of the rising nations, and an increasingawareness
of the distinctiveness of ethnic traits.
During the Danish crisis of the 18605,the principle was formulated that
populations should themselves make decisions about frontiers ; theand
not the governments, should decjde with what population they wanted
to stay together, and from what population they wanted to separate-
this was the principle of self-determination. The term "self-deterrnina-
tion" was fully in use during1864 and it may have been used before.
Self-determination was speedily embraced by nationalities which did not WITNESSES AND EXPERTS QI3
have their own State, and for the benefit of Poland was insisted upon by
the First International, which was founded by the socialist world move-
ment.
At the longress of Berlin, i1878, the principle of nationality achieved
a breakthrough, yet consent of the populations concerned was merely
presumed.
In 1896, the Second International, again for the benefit of Poland,
adopted the principle of self-determination as an important operational
concept. The nationalists of the time more often than not opposed the
principle.
I have gone into this history somewbat extensively, Mr. President,
because tliere isa misconception that the doctrine of self-determination
was formiiIated for the first time by the end of World War 1. It is im-
portant tu recognize that representatives from iquite different ideological
orientations did embrace this principlemuch earlier, and that, essen-
tially, self-determination is wha1 would cal1 arneta-ideological concept.
Mr. MULLER: Now, with regard to the principle of self-determination,
can you say whether this principle was applied for the purpose of ensuring
the jntegrity and independence of various nations, or was it applied for
other purposes?
Mr, Posso~u: Mr. President, the principle of self-determination was
applied within the context of the international powers struggle. When-
ever empIiasis on this principle suited the power jnterests of a particular
government, ,the principle was emphasized; whenever there was con-
tradiction between the principle and the power interests, the principle
was ignored; at times the principle was simultaneously asserted in one
region and denied in another.
If we look ai events without anaIysing their causes, can be seen that
by the end of World War 1, self-determination had replaced such prin-
ciples as that of royaI legitimacy and historic statehood in the areas of
the Habsburg Empire, and that it was partially applied within the area
of the former Czarist Empire ;the old Ottoman Empire gave way to
States est;ib.blishedaccording to the nationdity principle, or some replica
of it. Furthermore, there had been some changes within the British
Empire, such as the establishment, dating much earlier, of Dominions;
Norway had çeparated from Sweden. Self-determination was not always
applied through plebiscites, butin some instances it was. Application of
the principle did not result, inevery instance, in the creationof a pure
nation-State; rnulti-national structures did persist in Eastern Europe,
for cxarnple.
World \Var II also was fought, in large measure, about self-determina-
tion, though, of course, many additional factors entered. Subsequent to
that conflict, further application took place, notably through liquidations
of colonial empires.
Some of the more recent applications of the principle of ethnic self-
determination against earlier attempts to achieve integrated societies
include the independence of Algeria, in 1962, and the independence of
Singapore, in 1965. Some very current conflicts, such as Kashmir and
Cyprus, show that controversy about the right to self-determination
continues to be a potent factor.
Mr. MULLER : re there limitations to the right of self-determination?
Mr. POSSONY :here are a nurnber of problems for the solution pf
which it would be unwise to consider factors of ethnic settlement in654 SOUTH WEST AFRIC.4
separateness alone. For esample, there may be a rcquirement for access
to the sea. This matter came up in connection ïvith the Polish corridor
aiid, more recently, in the case of Fiumc (Susak) in Yugoslavia. In other
instances, a nation may invoke its right of self-defence and insist on a
defensible frontier as was the case of Czechoslovakia. Olten, economic
reasons may be validly adduccd in favour of keeping a large multi-ethnic
state together. Itis feasible, holuever, to separate the various national
groups and preserïTetheir economic cohesion by common market arrange-
ments.
hIrXULLER \I'hat metliods are there of giving effect to this principle?
3Ir.Possoliy :hlr. President, self-determination may be impiemented
in differentu7ays,for esample, through separation, partition, population
exchange, population removal and protective measures, such as minority
treaties and autonorny arrangements. In this context, 1 am using the
term "self-determination" as denoting the idca of national distinc-
tiveness in the sense of Bliintschli, one nation-one State or one Statc-
one nation. 1 am not discussing how and whether the will of the popula-
tions concerned is being determined.
The notion of self-determination applies. loosely spcaking, not just to
nations, aswas the early usage, or to peoples, as is present United Nations
usage-denoted by the phrase "iiations and peop1es"-but generally to
distinct communities.
The concept of community was defined in 1930 by the Permanent
Court of International Justice-this is my own translation from the
French, which is alittle clumsy-as involving a collective-
"of persons living in a country or in a certain locality, haairace,
a religion,a language and traditions oi their own and which ris]
united by the identity of that race, that religion, that language and
that traditionin a sentiment of solidarityhnviog the effect ofcon-
serving their tradition, maintaining their cult, assuring the instruc-
tionand education of their children in conforrnity witthe genius of
their race, and of mutually assisting one another".
This is quoted from the Résuméme~zszleldes Tvavartx de IB Sociélé des
NationsV ,olume X, No. 7. July 1930, page 219,
Alr.MULLER Y:OUIiave said that one of themethods of giving effect to
the principle is separation. Can you mention a few examples where
separation has been applied?
Mr. POSSOYY S:eparation, Mr. President, has been practised quite
often, for exarnple, the separatiof Holland frorn Germany, in the early
pcriod of the Modern Time, and of the German-spenking parts of Switzer-
land, at an even earlier period, and the separatioii of the United Colonies
in America frorn Britain, and subsequently, inside tlie United States, the
separation of \ilest Virginia from VirginiIn 1830, Belgiurn and Holland
separated. Austria, which is a unit of German sub-culture, did not join
Germany after 1918 and it separated after having been seized from
Germany in 1945 , ith United Kations approval. By contrast, British
Togoland, following the national rationale, sought incorporation into
Ghana.
Mr. MULLER : hat esamples are there of partition-one of the other
methods rnentioned by you?
3lr.Possox~: Partition was practised in the case of Irelandand for
convenience's sake 1 will refer, with respect to this case, to the documen- \VITSESSES AND ESPEKTS 655
tation laid down in the Counter-Memorial, II, page 487. This partition
u7as essentially along religious lines. Indin and Pakistan resolved on
partition also and 1 rcfer to the RejoinderV, page ~94,again for con-
venience's sakc. Other partitions include Ruanda-Urundi, which was
separated outinto Rwanda and Burundi, and thc British Cameroons, the
Northern part of which joined Nigeria while the Soiithern part associatcd
with the Repiiblic of Cameroon (reference: Couriter-Mernorial, II,
pp. 4jï fi.) T.e Federation of Rhodesia partitionet.1 into its original
components, as did the Iederation between Iraqand Jordan in ~gjS,and
ina somewhat less clear pattern,the United Arab liepublic in1961 . ali
and Senegal dissolved their federatiin ~960.III1964, inside thFedera-
tion of Nigeria, \ITestern Xigeria was split into two parts.
Mr. &IUI.LER N OW,you have also mentiont:d population enchanges
being one method. IVould you briefly den1with tliat by quoting euamples?
hlr. POSSONY A:s to the technique of population eschange, 3lr. Presi-
dent, such eschanges in some instances werc facilitatedby the interna-
tionalconimunity. The classic exchange waç that of Creek and Turkish
populatioiis some 40years ago. This operation was painfiil to thosc who
were compelled to Ieave. Many ofthe critcria for sclecting the individuals
who were allowed to stay were based on the fact of mernbership or non-
rnenlbership in any particular ethnic or religious group. Difficulties arose
with respect to those perçons who \rTereaffiliatecl through religion, an-
cestry, marriage or offspring with morc than otie groupIn man? cases.
adjudication was accomplished by an internatirinal group.
Anothei- exchange took place between India and Pakistan on a far
largerscale and it was accompanied by much violence. In the case of
Israel, too, partitientailed population movements. Arabs moved out
and Jews moved in, though there \vas no reciprocal exchange.
As to the population rcrnoval, the expelled group may be happy to go
or it may be chnsed away. The populatioii of Ihstern Carelia tvas evacu-
ated in 1940. Tamils are presently repatriatccl from Sauthern India to
Ceylon, wliere there already is a struggle betwccii the majority Singhalese
and the minority 'I'amilç.By contrast, the expulsions of ethnic Germans
from Czechoslo\rakia, Poland and other Easterri countries were more or
less involuntary. It remains, in most of these cases, an open question
whether different methods might have been applied and whether better
solutions rnight have been found that woulcihave respected the desireof
those who did not want to move.
Mr. MULLER: 'ïlic fourth method mentioned by you was protective
measures. Can yoii tell the Court what you mean by that description?
hlr. POSSOKY Y:es, Jlr. President,1 will discuss this under the two
fteadings of minority treaties and autonomy, first (Ming with minority
treaties,
After UTorIdWar 1, minority treaties werc instituted, practically for
the first timin history. Altogether17 States or self-governing territories
ivere obligatcd concerning the treatment of rninoritiie ncluding one
great power, namely Germany, one Asiatic State, Iraq, the free city of
Danzig, aiid Finland, for the Aaland Islands. This is laid doivn in detail
in the Economic anclSocial Council publication E/CN4/Sub 216 of 7
Sovember 1947 ,age 3.
The system instituted by these treaties was one of indefinite duration
but it allowed for modification. Supervision of the protection accorded
to the minorities was entrusted to the League ofNations. Howevcr, the656 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
protecting State, whenever it was charged with violations of the Treaty,
had a seat on the Council, and since deciçions wereby unanimity, the
resolutions could be passed only with consent of the State concerned.
Accordingly, to quote a United Nations document of 1947 n,amely the
same document 1just quoted, on page 8:
"In exercising the supervision it assumed, the League Council
used no methods other than persuasion or pressure of a purely moral
or political nature, to the esclusion of compulsory rneasures."
The term "minority" was not specifically defined but the treaty
language usually contained a general formula, vit., "racial, religious and
linguistic minorities".In many, if not most, instances,these categories
coincided.
One of the difficulties that arose, however, was that none of those
protected rninoritiehad a high degree of what might be called, "visi-
bility". Consequently .there were arguments as to whether a particular
person orfamily was entitled to claim minority atatus.
The rninority treaties guaranteed protection of lifeand liberty, the
free exercise of creed, religion and belief, the use of the minority's own
language and the right to establish at their own expense charitable,
religiouç and social institutions as weasschools and educational estab-
lishments, together with the right to teach their own language.
In the treaties and declarations relatinto Moslerns, cg., the caseof
Albania, Greece and Yugoslavia, it was provided that "al1 necessary
arrangements for regulating farnily law and personal status in accordance
with Moslem usage would be made". This quote is again from the same
pubIication, page19.
The Declaration of z October 1921, Article II.paragraph 3,with
respect to Albania, States asfollows: "Suitable provision wbe made in
the case of Moslems for regulating family law and persona1 status in
accordance with Moslem usage." A somewhat similar wording, inciden-
tally, was included ithe treaty with Greece of 27 Novernber 1919 ,nd
Yugoslavia of IO September 1919.
The minority treaties provided to each member ofthe rninority the
rightto the nationalityof the State exercisinsovereignty. The treaties
recognized the principles of strict equality between individuals belonging
to the minority elernent and those belonging to the majority, notably
equality of al1 personç before the law and equal treatmentde factoand
de jure.
Some minority treaties,Mr. President, worked better than others and
many populations needing protection ùid not enjoy minority çtatus. The
solution proved applicable to a certain class of cases characterized by
long cohabitation,geographic dispersion, explicit recognition of mutual
interest, and undeçirability of alternate solutions.A mere minority
treaty, however, cannot provide the ethnic group requiring the protection
with political power or with the capability of participating as a more or
less equal partner in decisions affectingsexistence.
MT. MULLER YOUalso mentioned autonomy as a protective measure,
would you kindIy tell the Court what ÿou mean by that?
Mr. POSSONY M:r. President,1 thinkI can best deal with this by first
discussing the principlef autonomy by reference to the case of Austria-
Hungary.
Tt may sometimes be relatively casy to establish nation-States but in WITSESSES ASD EXPERTS 657
many areas and at many times this is almost impossible. If borders were
drawn to conform \\rith precise ethnic settlements the map would be
cluttered by exclaves and enclaves, by dwarf States and by giants, and
many of the tasks of statecraft could not be accomplished.
Assuming that a near-perfect "fit" between State territory and ethnic
territory has been achieved, the arrangement soon might be invalidated
by migration.
This whole problem stood at the centre of attention during the last
50 years of the Habsburg Empire. The question was how to ensure to al1
ethnic groups their constitutionalrights in terms, intedia, of language,
culture, religion and representation, andto do so withoiit disrupting the
State and without giving to some of the ethnic groups, due to their larger.
numbers and more advanced economic development, an overly dominant
position. The problem waç complicated by the fact that while many of
the ethnic goups inhabiting the empire were living ina clearly delineated
territory,some had traditional territorial settlements, but also large
numbers of their nationals had dispersed to other areas.
In 1867, the so-called "dual system" was established separating in
effect Austria from Hungary. Inside Wungary, witli some exaggeration,
a policy of integration, that is of Magyarization was pursued, while inside
Austria tht: trend wastownrds separate developrrient. However, Hungary
too,did not insist uponthc integration solution for acases but bestowed
autonomy on such countries like Croatia and Slavonia, and allowed
de factoautonomy in other areas. Inside Austria, the separate develop-
ment solution ran into troubles.
In 1899, the Social Democratic Party of Austria came up with a con-
structive solution suggesting that Austria be changed into a democratic
federation of nationalities wherein each ethnically uniform body should
have self-government. Each district was to form an administration
essentiallyof the group that dominated in the district and al1the ethnic-
ally like districts, whether they were contiguous or not, were to be joined
into a national unit.
This solution was master-minded by Karl Rentier who, after WorId
War II, served as the Yresident of the Republic of Austria.
President Renner subsequently elaborated the concept in one key
aspect. Since an individual of any nationality may live anywhere, the
right of autonornous representation was to be attached tothe person, The
individual was tobe listed on an ethnic register and he w'asto vote within
. his national group, irrespective of the place of his domicile.Thus, the
Renner coiicept solved the veuatious problem of ethnic dispersal. Each
ethnicgroup was to have self-government and w;is to develop on its OW~,
jointly with the other groups.
In modified forms, the proposals of the Austrian Social Democratic
Party were adopted in four electoral reforms in Moravia, Rucovina, Tyrol
and Galicia. There was an attemyt to set up a sirnilar reform in Bohema
but the national struggle had reached such an intensity in that area that
compromise was not feasible. On the whole these reforms were considered
to be successful.
&Ir.MULLER: Are there other examples, in addition to the ones you
have just mentioned, regarding the application (if the concept of auton-
omp?
3lr.POSSOKY 1: will deal briefly with the following esamples: the
Ottoman Empire, Eastern Europe, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Lithuania,658 SOUTH WEST AFRIC-4
Rumania, Greece. Eritrea, the Soviet Union, the Vietnarnese Republic,
Yugoslavia, the Peoples' Republic of China, Belgium and Puerto Rico.
The PRESIDENT :s it necessary, hlr. hluller, to have all these details
in relation to al1these countries on the subject of autonomy?
RIr.MULLER :lr. President, in this sense, yes. In these countries
provisions were made for certain particular groups. It will be very brief,
1 can tell theCourt.
BIr.Possolis: In the Ottoman Empire, Buigaria and Wallachia were
given autonomy, but the arrangement turned outto be transitory and the
independent States of Bulgaria and Rumania emerged. Autonomy
arrangements on islands inthe Eastern Nediterranean also turned out to
be transitory.
In Eastern Europe, the mode1 of Switzerland was recommended in
1919 to the Eastern Europeans, but at Versailles, Yresident Wilson was
opposed to autonomy because he feared that it might disrupt newly
created States. The l'resident of the United States was probably unawarc
of the solution worked out by the Austrian Social Democrats.
Czechoslovakia: In the negotiations preceding the establishment of
Czechoslovakia, there was an original promise to provide Slovakia with
full autonomy. The promise was embodied in a treaty of 1919 but was
disregarded in practice.In 1938, after the itlunicDiktat,Slovakia, for a
short while, enjoyed genuinely autonomous status and promptly ob-
tained independence. Carpatho Russia was given a serni-autonomous
status from the start; its autonomy became strong after 1938 but the
arrangement also proved unstable. The Sudetenland wâs denied
autonomy and an integrative solution was tried Ilut did not work.
PoEalzd: the autonomy solution was not practiscd by Poland. By
contrast the solution ofa free State was applied to Danzig, that is, full
independence en miniature under the League.
Lithuania: There was a successful application of the concept in
Lithuania where Memel enjoyed autonomous status.In al1 thesecases
Iiowever, the notion ofpersona1 aiitonorny !vas notapplied.
Xumawia: Autonamy had been promised to Bessarabia but the promise
was not kept. It could have been applied to various cases throughout
Eastern Europe. In several countries, for example, there was potential
applicability in favour of the Jews. However, Rumania gave lirnited
autonomy in scholastic and religious matters to the Szeklers and the
Saxons.
Greece gave religious, charitable, and scholastic autonomy to the
Valachs of Pindus and rcconfirmed "the traditional rights and liberties
enjoyed by the non-Greek monastic communities of hiount Athos" under
Article62 of the Treaty of Bcrlin of13 July 1878.
The United Xations General AssembIy resolution 289 (NA), 1949, set
up a conimission to determine "the views of the various racial, religious
and political groups" inhabiting Eritrea. Subçequently, Eritrea became
an autonomous federated part of Ethiopia (1950) In 19Gzthe Hational
Assembly of Eritrea voted for union with Ethiopin, nnather case of short-
lived autonomy.
Soviet Umiom:One of the most interesting applications of thinking
about ethnic representation has taken place in the Soviet Union. Bath
Lenin and Stalin studied thc Austrian nationality problem before World
War 1.They fully embraced the principle of national self-determination.
Partsof the Czarist Empire like Poland andthe Baltic States, temporarily WITNESSES AND EXPERTS 659
the Ukraine and the Caucasian States, as well as Finland, which hiid
enjoyed autonomous status under the Czars were allowed to go their
own way.
The Soviet Constitution of 1922 rcflects considerable theoretical work
and a sophisticated understanding of ethnic factors.
The present Soviet Constitution, according to the count 1 made,
acknowletiges altogether 43 ethnic groiips. The nations and peoplcs
within thi: U.S.S.R. are organized on foui- differeiit levels: those which
are most itdvanced and largest, and which also have a border coinciding
with the border ofthe Soviet Union, thatis theover-al1 federation,those
form the so-called Union Kepublics. Those, essentially, are the 15 mern-
bers of the Soviet federation. There are fui.tliermore Autonomous Soviet
Socialist Hepublics,Autonornous Provinces and National Districts. Some
of tlie Union Republics themselves are federallv structured.
The various ethnic groups, therefore, have each their own territory
and thcy run their own affairs tlirough organs of self-government. Thcy
have their own cultural institutions and they enjoy the full use of their
own langiiage. The fundamental principle of autonomous developmeilt
in a homeland is being applied.
Russian serves as li~zguafrafzca and is used in institutions of higher
learning.
In the course of the economic developrnent plans which the Soviet
Governrnent has been executing, populations were moved inlarge nurn-
bers. As a result, many perçons rnoved into areas where they do nat
belong ethnically. Undoubtedly economic development was accelerated
in this fashion, but the local ethnic group may have lost control in ils
own territory. While43 ethnic groups are acknowledged, there are in the
Soviet Union more than a hundred. The priiiciple of persona1 autonomy
could have been applied but it was not. The Soviet Constitution certainly
does recognize the right of all ethnic groups to preserve thown identity.
According to the Igjg Constitution of tlte 'IJietnamese Republic-this
is quoteci from Interfia~liamentaryUnion, Constitattionaland Parliamelz-
daryIn/ormatio?t, October 1963, pages 173-174 an,d foilowing:
"Al1nationalities shall have the right to preserve or to eschange
their own customs and habits, to usc their spoken and written
languages, and to develop their own national cultures. [Leaving out
a few words] The State shall endeavour to help the national minority
to advance rapidly."
After IYorld War II, Yugoslavia was rc-established according to a
broader comprehension of the nationality prob1i:rnthan was noticeable in
1919. Presently there are sis federated states within Yugoslavia instead
of three ;rsthere were bcfore, and therc is moreover an autonomous
province and an autonomous district within Serbia. According to Article
43 of the Yugoslav Constitution,every nationality and national minority
"shall have the right to use its language Ireely, to develop its culture and
to found organizations to this end". This articIe also stipuiates thst in-
struction shall bein the language of the nationalities.
The Peoples'Refiztblicof China, according to its Constitution of 1954,
describes itself as a "unified, multinational State", wherein "regional
autonomy applies in areas entirely or largely inhabited by national
rninorities" (this is in ArticIe 3). Autonomy is provided for on several
levels. According to Article60, the authorities running autonornous areas660 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
are entitled "to take specific measures appropriate to the characteristics
of the nationalitiesconcerned". This is quoted, Mr. President, from
InferfiarliawentaryUnion, Conslitutionaland Parliamenlary Informalion,
r November 1954, pages 141, 151 and following, and 154. The Chinese
Constitution in Article3 gives to ail the nationalities "freedom to use
and foster the gromth of their spoken and lvritten languages, and to
preserve or reform their own customs or ways". It prohibits "discrimina-
tion against or oppressionof any nationality", and ties discrimination
and oppression together with "acts which undermine the unity of
nationalities".
The Belgian Constitution of 1831,which is now one of the oldesin the
world, ignored the national problem, though it proclaimed full language
rights. Despite a Flemish majority, French was ado tecl as the officia1
language. Gradually, when itbecame apparent that P<rench was gaining
rapidly, the Flemish people became alarmed and insisted on their lin-
guistic rights. A Flemish desire to maintaadistinct community becarne
ever more pronounced, and in 1932 a statute was promulgated making
Flemish the officia1language in the Flemish areas. Frencmas preserved
as the officia1language in the Walloon areas. In rnixed districts and in
the Congo both languages were official.
AfterWorld War II a new dispute arose from the fact tkat theWal-
loons, who are smaller in numbers than the Flemish, found themselves
in the position of a constant minority. Consequently, a constitutional
reform is under debate which is based on the principle of qualified
majorities. The fundamental purpose is that eacof the two cornmunities
can exercise veto rights, irrespectivof its numerical size and the size
of its vote. According to this prospective constitutional reform, universal
suffragewould be retained, but the value of each vote would be different
according to the community of the voter.
The Constitutionof Puerto Rico, ArticlIII/7A, is basedon the notion
that a two-party system must be preserved, and it has provisions to
ensure that the second party, whatever its record at the polls, possesses
a minimum strength in the Legislature; this is quoted fromInterparlia-
mentavy Union, Constitutional and Parliamentary Information, 1954,
page 117.Thus there is positive discrimination,1imay use the word in
this context, in favourofthe weaker party.
All this, hlr. President, can be summarized by saying that whenever
itis amatter of organizing thecohabitation of differe grtups, arrange-
mentsmust be made and routinelyarebeing made to protect each group.
The preservation of ethnic integrity is commanding highest priority,
irrespective of any ather advantages that may accrue from the close
relationships between different ethnic groups.
Mr. MULLER :rofessor Possony, are there in the world today broadly
gauged systems of group differentiatioby law?
Mr. POSSONY :our types of basic systemsmay be distinguished;with
your permission, 1 will discuçs them under four headings.
The PRESIDEN T:ay 1just interrupt foa moment? Mr. Muller, 1can
understand the general direction of the evidence thayou are presenting
having regard to the case which the Respondent is presenting in its turn
against that of the Applicants, but in your letter you state that the
evidence is tobe directed to the absence ofa general practice of a sug-
gested norm andJor standard of non-discrimination and non-separation
as relied upon by the Applicants. During the course of the examination of WITXESSES AND EXPERTS 661
the previous witness-you may not have been in Court-I drew the
attention of hlr. Rabie to what seems tme to be the proper procedure in
terms of presenting expert evidence upon an issue; this is to draw
attention to the particular issue, task the opinion in general terms or
specific terms of the expert upon that issue and then task his reasons.
So frir you have not jndicated at al1whether the evidence of the witness
is to be directed to the norm of non-discrimination and non-separation
as defineclby the Applicants; it is not a norm of non-discrimination or
non-separation as anybody wants to interpret it, but as defined by the
App1icant.s.1s your evidence going to be coniiectedup with the norm
and/or standards as defined by the Applicants at IV,page 493 of the
Reply ?
Rlr. MULLER : es, Rlr. President, with respect. The norm of the Ap-
plicants as there defined is one of non-separation or non-discrimination
on the basis of membership in agroup, class or race. The evidence thus
far, Mr. President, partly being histoupon which the witness\viU later
base certain opinions,but othenvise also ofdifferentiation thahas been
made in the past with regard to particular population groups finding
themselves either as minorities orasseparate sections of the population
in the world. With respect, Rlr, President, thnt evidencegoes to show that
in the past'there have been acts of separation between thesegroups, or
differential treatment upon that basis.
The YRESIDENTY : es, Mr. Muller. But 1think that the definitionwhich
isgiven atIV, page 493,perhaps might be read between now and when we
return frcimOur recess, and ifyou assure the Court that you propose to
connect it up with that definition, then 1will have nothing more to say.
Mr. MULLER: With respect, Mr. President, al1 the evidence will be
directed t:owards the norm as described on page 493 ; it wili be difficult
for me to put the norm every time that the witness is dealing with a
particulai country.
The PRESIDENT : fcourse it is, Rlr. Rlulbut,you have not put it to
hirn once yet, you know.
Mt-.MULLER :ut Mr. President, heisdescribing what is being done in
various countries in the world, an1will then fi~ially,if the Court permits,
ask hirn to indicate whether, on the evidence that he ha given, such a
norm is observed or not.
The PRESIDENT:It is still my view, Mr. hluller, that the proper course
always in presentation of the view of an expert is to bring hirn to the
issue irnniediately and ask for his opinion befo1.eyou ask forreasons.
At the present moment the witness has not been even asked xvhether he
has read that definition, whether he understands it and whetherhisevi-
dence is ciirecteto it.
Mr. MULLER M:r. Presidentmay 1, before tht: witness starts again, Say,
with reference ta the remarks made by you, Nr. President, hefare the
adjournment, that the position of this witness is one of witness on fact as
well asaii expert. The intention was that he would first of al1deal with
factual situations in the worldand then at the end express an opinion.
However, if the Court prefers that he should express an opinion before
he deals with the facts,1am quite preparecl to put to hirn the question
which 1intended to put at the end. So, with your permission,Nr. Presi-
dent, 1 sliall now puttohirn a question which was intended to corne at
the end of histestirnony on facts.
The PKESIDENT 1:think that isthe better courseto pursue.662 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
Str. MULLER:As tlie Court plcxscs. Professor Possony, it is contencied
by the Applicants in this case that there is in existence aii international
norm of non-discrimination or non-separation ivliich they sayprohibits
the allotment by governmental policies or actions of status, rights, duties,
privileges or burdens on the basis of membership inagroup, class or race.
Can you from your esperience and study Say ...
3Ir.GKOSS:Mr. President, 1miist just .. .
The PHESIDEIU' Tust a moment, >Ir. Gross. 1 think illr. Bluller, you
should continue the quotation "rather than on the bnsis of individual
merit, capacity or potential".
&Ir.filu~~~:e:i'es, Si1am giving you my interprctation, with respect,
Jlr. President, of the norm of non-discrimination or non-separaiion as 1
understand it. If the Court wants 1can read what the AppIicants say at
the page to ~vhichthey refer-that is 493-and whcrc they Say they do
define the norm.
The PRESIDENT :o you want to acldress the Court, JIr. Gross?
Mr. GROSS:Oh no, Mr. President, thank you Sir.
The PI~ESIUENT 1:think it is bctter hlr. Muller, because then there
cannot be any suggestion that the norm andior standard as defined is
not that which is stated by the Applicants.
Alr.JIULLER:As the Court pleases. 1 shall read to ÿou, Professor
Possony, at IV, page 492, at the bottom of the page, over to 493 of the
Applicants' Reply. This is what they say on the pages indicated.
"Applicants, on the other hand, insist that the ailotment by
governmental policy and action, of rights and burdens on the basis
of membershiy in a 'group', irrespective of iiidividual quality or
capacity, is impermissible discrimination outlawed by legal noms
well-established in tlie international community.
In the following analysis of the relevant legal norms the terrns
'non-discrimination' or 'non-sepration' are used in their prevalent
and customarÿ sense: stated negatively, the terms refer to the ab-
sence of governmental policies or actions which allot status, rights,
diities, privjlegor burdens on the basis omembership in a gmup,
class or race rather than on the basis of individual mcrit, capacity or
potential: stated affirmatively, the terms refer to governmental
policiesand actions the objective of which is to protect equalityof
opportunity and equal protection of the laws to individual persons
as such."
Now, can you from your experience and study say whether as amatter
of usage and practice in the world there has been observance of such a
norm?
Mr. G~oss: ;\Ir. Preçident, ohjection on the grounds generally stated
previously.hlay the objection be noted and reserved?
The PRESIIIIIST: The objection rnay be notetl but the witness may
reply.
Mr. POSSOXY: Mr. President, 1 can state that in my judgment on
reaclingthe evidence in history and social development there is no such
norm. My testirnony up to this point has deaItwith aspects of the norm
as stated onpages 492 and 493, notably the question of differentiatioin
general, allotment, separationand equality of opportunity. As 1 go on
1will be able,1 think, to add additional evidential pointon other parts
of the norm, or alleged norm. WITNESSES AND EXPERT3 663
Alr. G~ciss:Mr. President, to the general objections already made, in
the light of the question and response, may the Applicants also note
the objection that the opinion just rendered is, with respect, a legal con-
clusion regarding the existence or not of a rule of internationallaw,
presumably, in this sense, according to Article :38(1), paragraph(b).
The PRESIDENT W:ell, opinions upon that niay not agree with your
conclusions, Mr. Gross. The witness is being asked as an expert in respect
of practict: throughout the world, and he can give his answer to that
having regard to the provision of Article38 of the Statute of the Court,
and then the value to be placed upon his answt:r wiif be determined bp
the Court.
Mr. G~oss: &Ir. President, may 1 with respect, refer-very briefly-
because of the confusion engendered on the Applicants' part with respect
to the distinction sought to bedrawn by Respondent between the evid-
ence, expert or otherwise, with regard tofact,and legal conclusions wvhich
might be drawn 'cherefrom,which would be appropriate for the Court, to
refer tothe statement by Nr. de Villiers which was made in the vcrbatim
record of 22 June 1965, in which, atX, page 136, hlr. de Villiers surnma-
rized the position on this very point of the purpose for which witnesses
would be called, and stated as iollows, referring toa letter he had
written:
"1 made perfectly plain our position as tthe manner in which we
would set about answering the Applicants' case as we understood it ;
and nre made it perfectly plain that iso far as the Applicants rely
upon a suggested practice of States so as to establish a rule of
custoinary 13~7in terms of Article 38(1)(b) of the Statute, we con-
sidered that to be a rnatter of fact to which evidence could be
directed."
That, Sir, has sirice been the Applicants' understanding of what the point
is to which the evidence is sought to be directed, as evidence with
regard to fact rather than the conclusions or opinions with respect to the
legal statusto be derived from the practice testified tas a fact.
The PRI~SIDEN T :atever counsel said at tliat particular point does
not bear, with respect, Mr. Gross, upon the presentation of this witness.
This wifness is presented in accordancewith prticedure laid domn by the
Court, and if that procedure has been followedsufficiently and the Court
allows the evidence, that determines whether tliewitness may be called
to give evidence, and itwill subsequently be for the Court to determine
the reIevance of his evidence either on fact oon law and the weight to
be attributed to it as1have already made clear.
Air. MULLERM : T.Preside~itmay I pleasc be permitted to ançwer to
what my Iearned friend has stated relative to the case which Rlr. de
Villiersintiicated could be made by evidence?
The PRI;SIDENT W: ell, if you so desire, Mr. Muller.
Mr. RIuI-LER: Mr. President,1 did not ask the witness to state whether
there was a norm in cxistence. 1 asked the witness to state whether in
practice siich a normis observed. Now, on the very day and in the very
verbatim record my learned fricnd refers to, you, Nr. President, asked
this question ofmy learned friend to elucidate Iiis position to the Court.
May 1 read, with respect, the question aslred and the ansiver given?
Tl-iePRIISIDENT:PIease do.
Mr. MULLER The question, llr. President, piit by yourself \vas:664 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"hlr. Gross,before you resume your seat, could you make clear to
the Court the reasons that you advance why no evidence can be
given in relation to practice, in terms of establishing, or refuting, the
existence of the customary rule of law evidenced by practice in
terms of Article38 (b) of the Statute. Do 1 understand you to Say
that no evidence whatever can be adducedbefore the Court in terms
of the practice existing in other countries?"
And the reply of my learned friend, Mr. President, was to the following
effect:
"Mr. Preçident, the Applicants answer to the President's question
is that the Apphcants have not taken such a position, but the
Applicants have not understood from the proffered evidence by the
counsel that the questions to be addressed to this witness, or indeed
any other witness, relate to questionsofpractice or other facts that
are, if 1 may again quote as part of the response to the honourable
President's question, 'whether a norm andlor standards such as
contended for by Applicants exist'."
Mi. GROSS: Mr. President, the Applicants were well aware of that
colloquy and rea£fïrmit and nothing that was just now said is intended
or isindeed inconsistent with it. Sir, the distinction as sought to be dram
and perceived no objection if the Court so wishes that testimony be ad-n
dressed to the Court with respect to the practice of States. The question,
and sole question, which the President has already expressed to be one,
and 1donot press, is of course the separate and distinct issue whether or
not it is admissible for the witnessto express a legal judgment or to be
asked by counsel to express a legal judgment concerning the existence,
or otherwise, of a ruleof international law, asdistinguished from the
practice of States, from which such a legal conclusion could be inferred
by a Court. And, Sir, 1 did want to Say that this is not in any way in-
consistent, in Ourjudgrnent, with the statement which has been read by
Mr. Muller.
The PRESIDENTM : r. Gross, 1 think there is some misunderstanding.
The witness is asked a question which relates to general practice. It
might be said to be a question which is partly of fact and partly olaw.
It rnightbe a question which he answ7ers partly in his capacity as a
witness on fact, on his enquiry into fact, and partly by the interpretation
he places as an expert in various disciplines upon certain legal instru-
ments. But whether it is a mixed question of law and fact, or of fact only
it is the view given by a witness who testifies upon both as an expert and
as a witness. It is not a conclusion of law to state that in his view as a
matter of general practice, having regard to the reasons which he gives,
there is or is noanorm or standard such as the Applicants contend for.
Continue, Blr. Mulier.
Mr. MULLER :Sthe Court pleases. Professor Possony, are there in the
world broadly gauged systems of group differentiation by law?
Mr. POSSOSY h:Ir. President, there are four systems of broadly gauged
basic systems that can be distinguished. With your permission 1 will
discuss them under four headings. First,the Asiatic system of pluralistic
societies, second, certainçyçtern is the Eastern Alediterraenan, third,
the pluralistic system in the Islamic countries and fourth, the systerns in
various countries dlviding advanced from aboriginal groups or providing WITNESSES ASD EXPERTS 665
differentiation between tribal groups. ln addition, of course, there are
specific provisions of differentiationmany countries.
Mr. MUI.LER N:ow, would you discuss what you have referred to as the
hsian systems and tell the Court which countrii:~ you have inmind?
Mr. POSSONY 1:will discuss the Asian syste~ns of Burma and India.
The Constitution ofBurma of1947 , hich is in Peaslee, CortstiluliO/ts
-Vations,Volume 1,pages 279 and following, faces up to the problem of
multi-ethnic coniposition. It recognizes, in Arti21,the special position
of Buddhi~m asthe faith professed by the great majority, but also re-
cognizes other religions, including Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and
Animism. The legislature is broken down into a Chamber of Deputies
and a Chamber of Kationalities which are, with the exception of financial
rnatters, CO-equalin rank. The Shan State, which represents an ethnic
group, constitutesa State council of the Shan r1:presentatives in Parlia-
ment and its representatives in the Chamber of Nationalities are especi-
ally electeby a Shan body. The Minister for the Shan State, who is also
its temporary head, is appointed by the 13resident of Burma in consul-
tation with the Shan State Council.
-4 similar arrangement exists for the Kachin State, except that
minorjties within that state have reserved representation within the
Kachin quota in the Charnber of Nationalities. (Ibid.p. 307.)
Similar provisions are envisaged, and may be in force, for the Karen
State, upon self-determination by the Karen people of their status. This
was laid down in 1947.
The position of the Chins, another ettinic group, is rcgulated by
analogy, tliough on a somewhat lower level.
The funtlaniental concept is that of self-government and preservation
of ethnic identity.
Rir.MULLER : hat is the position in Iridia, Professor Possony?
Air.POSSONY :n India there is a strong distinctionbetween the 14
, States which rnake up the Indian Federation and the six territories. The
States wert: reorganized i1936 to conform. by and large,with linguistic
regions. This ilaiddown in Peaslee, Consfitrttioof ATations,Volume II,
pages 223 ff., which has the early version, and the reform is esplained in
the Wumalt RighisYearbook, 1956,pages 116 and following.
The territories now include outlying islands and are managed by the
President through administrators. In addition, there are the Scheduled
and Tribal Areas which are handled by arrangements which resemble a
"nationalmandate". There are further differences between the Scheduled
Tribes and the Scheduled Tribes in the Tribal Areas of Assam, and the
ScheduIed Tribes in the autonomous districts ofAssam. This is a com-
plicated set-uy going down several steps. In addition there are the
Scheduled Castes.
For al1 these territorial group20 seats are reserved in the House of
the People. The central authorities have considerable freedom to make
changes in the administration.
Article335 prescribes that the,"claims of the memberof the Scheduled
Castes and the Scheduled Tribes shall be taken into consideration in the
making of appointments". (Ibid.,p.. 312.) According to the Indian
Constitution's Fifth Schedule-this IS actually an appendix to the .
Constitution-tribes are administered directly by Tribal Aclvisory
Councils. The authorities on the level of thet:rnor may decide how to666 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
apply or not to apply national legislation in a given Scheduled Area.
(Ibid.,pp. 344 ff.)
Scheduled Areas may be established, abolished or changed by the
President of India.
According to Article 385, which is in Peaslee (ibid pp,.332ff.): "Al1
the Scheduled Castes in any Province or State shall be deemed to be a
single cornrnunity."
Those who think that the caste system is being abolished will be
surprised toIearn that according to the Manual ofElection Law, published
by theGovernment of India in 1951 ,nd which apparantly continues in
force, no less than 504 castes are listed for the ABC States-thiswas the
old division of States which was abolished in 1956. The number of
Scheduled Tribes is smaller but is still considerable.
According to Article 338, in Peaslee,Constitutionsof Nations, Volume
II, page 313,the Indian President appoints aspecial officefor Scheduled
Castes and Scheduled Tribes, whois to inrrestigate al1matterrelating to
safeguards provided for the Schcduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes and
to report to the President. According to Article 340, the President may
appoint commissions to investigate conditions of socially and education-
ally back~vard classes and the difficulties under which they labour in
order to make recomrnendations forthe removal of such difficulties and
the improvcment of their conditions.
Section 46 of the Indian Constitution provides as follows:
"Thc State shall promote, with special care, the educational and
economic interests of the wcaker sections of the peo le $nd in
particular, of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled ribes and
shall protect them from social injustice and al1 forms of exploita-
tion." (Ibid.p. 233.)
Furthermore, Article 29 (ibid., p230) gives to:
"Any section of the citizens, having a distinct langunge, script
or culture of its own... the right toconserve the same."
Article 30(Zbid p.,30) states that:
"All minorities, whether bascd on religion or language, shall have
the right to establish and administer educationalinstitutionof their
choice."
Now, in 1956 two new Articles were added, nurnbers 350(a) and 350
(b),which provide for mother-tongue instruction at the primary level
and establish a special officer for linguistic minorities, reporting to the
President.
In regard to land, it isspecifically provided that the Governor may
make regulations-Fifth Schedule, Section 5 (ibid.p. 345):
"{a) To prohibit or restrict the transfer of land by or arnong
membcrs of the Scheduled Tribes in such area;
(b) regulate the allotment of land to rnembers of the Scheduled
Tribes in çuch area."
The Sixth Schedule, which applies tothe tribal areas in Assam provides,
interalin,that (ibid.,p. 347):
"If there are different Scheduled Tribein an autonomous district
the Covernor may, by public notification. divide the area or areas
into autonomous regions." (Art. I (3).)
Within an autonomous region, regulations may be made witli respect,
interdia, to : WITSESSES AND EXPERTS 667
"The allotment, occupation or use, or tlie setting apart of land,
other than any land which is reserved forest, for the purpose of
agricultural or grazing or for sesidential or other non-agricultural
purposes or for any other purpose likely to prornote the interests of
the inhabitants of any village or town."
Tliis is Articl3 (1)(a) (ibid., p. 348).
ArticIe '1(1)deals with the institution of courts (ibid.p. 349): "For
the trial of suits and cases betweeri tlie partics a11ofwhom belong to
Schcduled Tribes." Such courts operate in some areas "to the exclusion
of any court in the State".
A furthcr example of representation on a group bais in India is that
of the so-called "Anglo-Indian cornmunity", found in section 366 (2)of
the Constitution. (Ibid., p.322.)
Section 333 of the Constitution provides that, notwithstanding section
170 (which provides for the composition of the Legislative Assembly or
of a çtate on a territoriabasiç) the Governor of a state may:
". ..if he is of the opinion that the Anglo-lndian community needs
representation in the Legislative Assembly of the State and is not
adequately represented therein, nominate such number of mernbcrs
of the community to the Assembly as he considers appropriate".
(Ibid.,p. 312.)
In addition, it may be mentioned that ari Act of 1956,a separate Act
that is, confirmed that Hindus, Moslems, Cliristians, Parsees and Je~vs
Iiavc each their specific succession 1~~s.This is laid down in Hzcman
Kights Yearbook, rg56, page 121.
There are also standard budgetary provisions to raise the level of
administration of the Tribal Areas.
lt is therefore apparent that the Indians have been facing up to the
problem of diversity in a realistic manner.
The PRESIDEXT:SOW,what are the conclusions drawn by you from
al1you have said apart from wliat is apparent, in relation to the practice
of the norm of non-discrimination or non-differentiation?
Mr. POSSONY> : Ir, President, the Constitution here makes a number of
allotments ...
l'he P.RESIDENT1 : am açking your conclusions. U'hat are your own
conclusions ?
Mr.POSSONYM : y conclusion is that tlie Constitution of India is actual-
ly resyonsive to the problem of ethnic diversity and has made various
arrangements through which the identity of the various ethnic groups is
protected and the progress of tlicse groups ensured, in essence. 1t is iiot
a Constitution that is based on tlie notion that groups can be disregarded.
It is specificaliy based the notion that groups are a reality and that the
constitutional arrangements are most effective if the group diversity is
fully taken into account.
The PRESIDEXT:Thank you.
JZr.MULLER N:OW,you have mentioned certain systems in the Eastern
Mediterranean. IVhich particular systems have you in mind to deal with?
PlIr.POÇSONY:1would like, if 1 may, Mr. President, to discuçs Cyprus
firstand then turn to Lebanon.
The notion that a multi-ethnic population can be administered through
a unitary State is in contradiction with the Constitution ofCyprusof1960,
according t.owhich various positions in the Government are allocated on668 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
a group basis and each group is authorized to run its own cultural in-
stitutions.The Cypnis Constitution was sponsored by the United Na-
tions, but it has proved unsatisfactory to the Turks because it assigns
ministerial chairsand legislative votes according to a fixedseven to three
ratio,with the result that the Turks always must remain minorilaire.The
Greeks,on their part, are unhappy about the guarantees that were given
to the Turks.
Specifically, the Constitution of Cyprus haç the foHowingprovisions:
~iticle 1 provides for a presidential regime, the ~resident to be a
Greek and the Vice-President to be a Turk. The President is to be elected
by the Greek community and the Vice-President by the Turkish com-
munit y.
Article z defines the method by which the inhabitants are divided into
tm70groups, namely the Greeks and the Turks. Obligatory allocation
depends on origin, language, cultural traditions and religious beliefs.
Citizens not falling within the obligatory classification are obliged to
choose to which community they shall belong. In terms of Article 2 (5)
individuals who fall within the obligatory classification are not free to
join the other community as amatter of choice. They may do so only if
they comply with certain formalities, and are approved and accepted by
the communal chamber of the comrnunity they wish to join. This was,
Mr. President, Article 2.
Article 63 provides that there sliall be separate electoral lists for the
Greek and the Turkish communities, memberç ofthe Greek community
being precluded from the Turkish electoral list and vice versa.
Article 46prescribes that the Councilof Ministers shall cansist of seven
Greeks and three Turks.
Representatives shal be elected by the Greek community.slative House of
Article 72prescribes that the President of the House of Kepresentatives
shall be a Greek, elected by the Greek representatives, and the Vice-
President a Turk elected by the Turkish representatives. Their functions,
even during a temporary vacancy, can be performed only by a member
of the sarne community. This is in Article 72,sub-paragraphs 2 and 3.
Articles 86 and 87 provide for communal chambers for each of the
communities. These chambers have certain legislative powers, for
example in regard ta education (Art. 87 (b)). Each community has its
own schoolç, devises its own curricula and appoints its own teachers. It is
implicit in these Articles that no provision is made for children of one
community to attend the schools of the other community.
Articles123, 129 and 130 prescribe the percentage of each community
which is to man the public service, the armed forces and the police force
respectively.
Article 173provides that in thefive largest towns separate municipali-
ties for each cornmunity shall be created,with councillors belonging only
to the respective community elected only by such community. Such
municipality can levy taxes, rates, etc., but only on members of its own
cornrnunity (Art. 174)a, nd that with certain exceptions. This is al1laid
down, hlr. President, in Interparliamentary Union, Cof~stitational and
Parliamerztary Iltformation, 1960, pages 141and following, and 1961,
pages 1-44.
There waslast week a news story in the Kew York Herald Tribune
(Europcan Edition) of 13 October (p.z),according to which newnegotia- WITNESSES AXD EXPERTS 669
tions are being conducted under United Nations auspices between the
Cypriot Turks and Greeks, and new proposais have been made by the
Greek cominunity. I will read one paragraph, with your permission, from
the Herald Trihine story:
"The Government declaration includes a code of fundamental
rights and freedoms in accordance with the UN Declaration of
Human Rights, and autonomy for al1 minority communities in
education,culture, religion, persona1status and related subjectç."
Mr. MULLER Professor Possony, you mentioncd that another country
in that area which you wished to deal with is Lebanon. What iç the
position with regard to Lebanon?
Ayr.POSSONY T:e Republic of Lebanon, lvhiclwaç a Mandate once of
the League of Nations, administered by France, isa State which, in itç
entirety, is organized along the principle of differentiation. The Lebanese
State arose from a Christian community that existed within the Ottoman
Empire where it enjoyed protected status in line with Islarnic law
according such protection to religions based on the Bible.
During the first half of the 19th century, an atternptwas made to
impose large portions of hZoslemlaw on the Christian cornmunity. This
attempt failed. By 1864,the Christian groups in the Lebanon occupying
anarea about one-third ofthe present State territory achieved autonomy.
The territory was then adrninistered by a Christiangovernorinside the
Ottoman Empire. The Islamic groups cvere esplicitly recognized as
having their own status, and the Christians too were subjected to the law
of their own communities.
In 1914i,n connection with the outbreak of IVorld Wa1, the Ottoman
Empire abolished the autonomy ofLebanon. In 1917 religious-communal
jurisdiction was also abolished.
In 1920France assumed her Mandate over the liresent area of Lebanon,
and religious-communal jurisdictions were re-established. Several at-
tempts were made by French authorities during the 1920sto introduce a
uniform system based on modern civil law, but these atternpts failed.
The Mandate for Syria and Lebanon of 24 July 1922 contains this lan-
page: "Respect for the personal statusof the various poples and for
their religious interests shallfuiiy guaranteed." This ISin theO@cial
Jour?zaEof theLeague ofNations A,ugust 1922, pages 1013-1017.
legal civil iiniformity, and again these attempts failed. 2nApril1951
the Independent Republic of Lebanon promulgated a law on persona1
statute which redefined the cornpetence af the Christia annd Jeurish
communities. In 1953 theLebanese Parliament ~iroposedthat a uniform
jurisdiction be worked out for the Republic. The resolutiwas adopted,
but itwas never acted upon.
Mr. MULLER:What is the basic difficultv of nchieving uniformity in
Lebanon?
Mr. POSSONYT :here are in Lebanon II Christic aonrnmunities,in-
cluding the Armenians, uiho are recent immigrants and constitute about
one-fifth of the population in the Lebanese capital. There alçois a Jewish
community which is settied almost exclusively in the Jewish quartersof
Beirut and Tripolis. The nloslerns in turn are divided into three groups,
among them the Shiites, who achieved their status only under the French
Mandate. In addition there are Palestinian refiigeeswho account for670 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
approsimately 7 per cent. of the total population, but who have not been
incorporated in the Lebanon, among other reasons because their naturali-
zation would upset the present delicate equilibriiirn bettveen the various
communities. Aiid a stili further complication arises because Lebanon is
a country of emigration. Exact figures on Lebanese emigration are not
available, but according to the best estirnates it seems that about one-
third of the Lebanese populations are living abroad. There is an argument
between the Christian and the Islarnic communities whether the Lebanese
who have emigrated but retained their nationality should be counted, or
xvhether thcy should be ignored, in the allocation of political representa-
tion to the various communities.
This system, in terms of numbers of recognized communities, has been
growing in complesity. There arenow more communities than there wete
before.In the Islarnic tradition, religious affiliation dominates over ethnic
affiliation. In fact, one could speak of ethnic groups differentiatedby
religion. Tliusa religious cornmunity is at the samc timan ethnicgroup
or a sub-group. Each community tends to be living on its own within the
towns;and villages tend to be inhabited by one cornmunity, or are neatly
divided between several communities. Moreover, some of the communities
handle their own social security arrangements. There are very few con-
versions, and each Lebanese ~zecessa~ilbelongs lo a community. He is
able to quit his community only by inscribing in another.
Mr. MULLER : hat is the present political arrangement in Lebanon?
hlr. POSSONY T:he political çystem is firmly based upon the notion of
proportionate representation, which isrecognized in Article 95 of the
Constitution. l'hiç article can be fouinPeaslee,ConstitutionsofNatiolzs,
Volume II, page 582.But beyond the Constitution there içthe so-called
Pacte Aratiolaale.whichisnot in w-iting, but wc know about it from a
former President of Lebanon and it is also referred to in the book by
Professor Khalil, The Arab Statesand the Arab Leagrte,Volume 1, page
124 In addition there isthe Electoral Lawof IO BIarch 1922 ~vhich de-
fined the general electoral arrangement and which is confirmed in
Article 24 of the Constitution. The seats in Parliament are allocated to
the various communities. The Moslems and Cliristinns arc divided accord-
ing tothe ratio of five-elevenths to six-elevenths. Each electoral district
has its predetermined confessional complexion; for example, the city of
Tripolis with five seats has four Sunnite and one Greek Orthodox re-
presentntives. Incidentally, this whole breakdown of the electoral arrange-
ment is reprinted in Hztman Raghfs Yearbook O/ the United Nations,
1950, page 186. Within the electoral district, the voters must choose from
among candidates belonging to the community which is entitled to the
seat as such. It does not matter whether the voter belongs or does not
belong to the particular community, whose representative will represent
him in Parliament.
The main Officesof State ais0 are divided according aopre-established
key: each particular high position will be occupied by a member of one
rather than another cornrnunity.
In so faras bureaucratic positions are concerned, the Lebanese Con-
stitution, Article12,states that all Offices are attributable on the basis
of merit and cornpetence, but there is also the idea of proportionate
representation of the communities laid dotvn in Article 95.
A Lebanese parliamentary commission, reporting in 1927 on the
problem of proportionate representation, stated that the Lebanese people WITNESSES AND ISXI'ICRTS 671
is compost:d ofa number of comrnunities cach having religious convic-
tions, its own mentality, customsand traditions. If the systern of propor-
tionate representation were abolished, one of those comrnunities would
achieve preponderance to the detriment ofothers. The result wouId be
jealousy, resentment and perhaps continuous trouble. The moment had
not yet corne, the commission stated, to abandon a system dating back
forçevernl centuries. The system is still in force, and what is perhaps more
important,the system corresponds, or seems to correspond, to tfie wishes
of the population.
&Ir.MUI,LER Professor Possoiiy, as other measures ofdifferentiation
you mentioned pluralistic systems in the lslarnic States. \Vil1you deal
with that, and first tell the Court what yomean by pIuralistic systems?
Rlr.POSSOKY :slam has been a religious, social and partially ethnic
system practising differentiation in varying ciegrees, in many important
aspects of life. Differentixtion is effecin thieebasic respects:firstthe
separation of multiple groups within societies dominated by Moslems and
withinsocieties in which large numbers ofMoslernsare living; second, the
differentiation onmany persona1 and legal grounds between 3Ioslems and
non-Jloslems; and third, the differentiation between men and momen.
There are of course inter-connections betiveen thosesystems of difîeren-
tiation;also,thc intensity of the differentiation varies wittime, and it
varies country by country.
Mr. MULLER :OWmany Islnmic countries art: there and why are they
referred to as IsIarnic countries?
MT. YOSSONY X:ot counting several Plrab p~incipalities of uncertain
çtatus, there are16 Islamic countries-in alphabetical order: Afghani-
stan, Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Libya, .i.Ialaya. Mauretania,
hforocco, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Syria. Tunisia and Iremen.
These countries have a population of more than 230 million, almost half
of whom are living in Yakistan and Afghanistan.
They ari: describedas Islatnic because they, themselves, in their Con-
stitutions,describe Islam as their State religion. Since, in addition to
being a religion, Islam also ia way of life and a social system, this con-
stitutional provision has more meaning than syrnbolic references toState
religion insome western constitutions. The Icgalsystems of these coun-
tfies are scluarely based on Islamic law, frequently by explicit constitu-
tional provision.
Mr. MULZICR :OW,wlien you Say thnt the legalsystems of these
countries :LICsquareIy based on Islamic law, what do you mean?
Mr. Possox~: Islamic law is usually described as the Sharia laxvThis
law consists of the following parts:
(r)Aloslemcanonic and customary law. which in theory is considered
immutable and whose basic concepts date back hundreds of years.
(2)The so-called personal statute of IîIoslemst.hat has evolved through
tradition and statutory lnw.
(3)In some Islamic countries, codified and modernizcd persona1
statutes defining a portion of the Moslem law.
(4)Modern constitutions.
In .addition, there is local customary law and more or tess modern
Iegislation dealing with the rest of the cor#iis juris.
Mr. MULLER: Can you give the Court a iew examples where the
statutory law provides for utilization of non-statutory law in Islamic
countries?672 SOUTH WEST AFRICA 4
Mr. POSÇONY : r. President, according to Articl82 of the Moroccan
Code (translated by AndréColorner, LeCodeduStatrtt+ersonne1marocain,
Algiers, p. 50). rnatters which are not explicitly handled in the Code
should be decided in line with "the best supported opinion or the best
knoïvn opinion" of the Islamic jurists or "by customary laws". According
to other stipulations, doubts are to be resolved by reference to "good
usage".
The most recent example is that of the Afghanistan Constitution of
I October 1964, whose Article 102 states as follows:
"The Courts ... shall apply the provisions of this Constitution
and the laws of the State. I'henever no provision exists in the Con-
stitution of the laws .. . the Courts shall, by following the basic
principles... ofthe Shariat of Islam and within the Limitations set
forth within this Constitution, render a decision that, in their
opinion secures justice in the best possible way(Interflarliamentary
Union, Constildional alta Parliamenlary Informalion, 1965, p. 23.)
So you have in this Constitution, which is barely one pear old, a specific
reference to the Sharia.
Mr. MULLER In the Islamic States, what differcntial treatmenby law
is there between, on the one hand, Moslems and, on the other hand, non-
Moslems?
Mr. Posso~u: TO demonstrate in this regard the continuing attach-
ment to the Islamic tradition, even in a modern socialist Sta1will read
from the preamble of the Algerian Constitution, the Constitution, more
precisely,ofthe Democratic and Popular Republic of Algena. The Con-
stitution is datedS September 1963 and in the preamble it is stated as
follows :
"Islam and the Arab tongue have everywhere been effective in
resisting the attempt by the colonial regime to depersonalize the
Algerian people." (Ibid., 1964,p. 3.)
The Constitution of Syria o1953 prescribes thatthe President must be
a Moslem (ibid., 1954p. 23).
The Somalia Constitution of July 1960, Article 71, says under the
heading of "Qualifications for Eligibilityaç follows:
"(1) Every Moslern citizen who, being the son of a father and a
mother, who are both original citizens, has the right to vot...and
shall be eligible to become Presidentofthe Republic.
(2) During his term of office, the President of the Republic shall.
not be married to nor rnarry any woman {ho is not an original
citizen."(Ihd., 1964,p. 101.)
The former kingdom of Hedjaz, now known asSaudi Arabia,had in its
old Constitution, Article56,the proviso that al1members of Council and
athey "should not have forfeited their, legal Sharia rights". This is in
Xhdil, TACArab Sialcsczndihe Arub Leag~e,Volume 1, page 239. This
rule still describes the present Saudi Arabian practice.
Most outspoken is the Constitution of Malaya of 1957 ,otably Article
153.This iç inInter-Parliamentary Union, Constitutionaland Parliamefa-
tary Information,1958 p,ages176 and following.This article enjoins upon
the head of the Fedcration "to safeguard the special position of the U'ITNESÇHS AND EXPERTS 673
Jlalays and the legitimate interest of other conimunities". Article 15312
calL upon the head of the Feclcration-
"To ensure the reçervation for Malays of such proportion as he
may deem reasonable of position in the public service (ather than
the public service of a State), and of scholarships, exhibitions and
other similar educational or training privileges or special facili-
ties.. .andwhen any permit or licencefor t.heoperation of any trade
or business is required by federal law."
Article 1531s says that whenever-
"by any federal law any permit or licence is required for the opera-
tion of any trade or business, thatlaw may provide for the reserva-
tion of a proportion of such permits or licences for Malays".
Article 15919 says that business or trade shall not be reçtricted "soIely
for the purpose of reservations for bldays".
According to Article 11/4 (stilI in Malaya): "The propagation ofany
religiouçdoctrine or belief among persons professing thc hloçlernreligion"
may be controlled or restricted (ibid., p. 133).Now, this task, together
with al1niatters of Moslem law, Aloslemcourts and Malay customs, 1s
assigned to the several States forming the Mafay Federation. Note that
most of these provisions seem to be directed against the Chinese.
hlr. MULLER :Sthtre any differentiationby law between Moslemsand
non-Moslems in Islamic countries in respect of personal status?
hlr. POSSONY:Yes, Mr. President. Moslems and non-Moslems live
under different persona1statutes. For example, Article 305of the Syrian
Code indicatcs where the Code isapplicable to the Christian and Jewish
communities. It is not spelt out in what particulars the Code is sot
applicable to the non-Moslem cornmunitieç. The point is that each group
has its own personal status and though there iç much overlap, the system
isoneofgroup differentiation. Similar provisions have recently been made
in the Pakistan Constitution, Article 19814t; his is reprinted in Human
Rights Yearbook1956, page 181.
The evidence of a non-filosleni does not bear the same weight asthat
of aMaslem.This rule has been weakened in practice and may be ignored
in countrieç of strongly rnixedpopulations but the ruIe still exists. The
authority for that is Professor Schacht, who is ;ileading expert on MOS-
Iem law, and histwo books. One is called An Infroduction luMoslemLaw
and the ot:herOvigznsoj Moha~medala JecrisfirudenceR. eferences are to
page 132in the firstbook and page 210 in the second.
This fundamental approach has al1kinds of ramifications, for example,
a non-Moslem rnaynot be the guardian of a Moslem, even if he OS she 1s
the non-Moslem'sown child; reference to this is again Professor Schacht's
Aw Introdacdzon to MoslemLaw, page 132.
An all-Islamic strict rule is that a non-Mosleni does not inheritfrom
JIoslem; AIoslemshowever, rnay inherit from non-Moslem relatives. This
is laid do~vn,for example, in Article 264 (6) of the Syrian Code and in
Article 228 of the Noroccan Code. Betrveen nationals of one State, there
may be no inheritance between a Rloslem testator and a non-Moslem
heir, while there may be inheritance bcttveen individuals of different
tiationalitybut of identical religion. This arrangement isusually tied to a
reciprocity provision, forexample in Article 541512of the Syriaii Code.
However, a testament can be drawn in favour of permns of different
religions and &es, for example, according to Sj~ian Article ZI~/X. Th~s674 SOUTH WEST AFKICA
particular Article appears to be in contradictioi~ with Article 264 (b),
which states that inheritance is prccluded by virtue of difference in
religion bctwccn Piloslemsand non-Moslems. The apparent contradiction
iseasily resolved: according totheSharia, s hloslem can disposeby will
of no more than one-third of his property, the reniaining two-thirds must
go to his heirs by succession. This "rule of one-third" is stated with
precision in the Moroccan Code, Article 173.
The Iraqi Code, Article77, severely restricts the established rights of
non-Moslem beneficiaries to nzobilia and therefore excludes land and
houses.
The Moslem male is aHowed to marry a Christian or a Jewish fernale,
for exarnple, this is laid down in Articl17 of the Iraqi Code. Females
who profess a religion which is not based on the 13ibleare excluded.
However, a marriage between a hloslem female and a non-Moslem is
absolutely and totally void and non-existent, in contrast to al1 other
impediments to marriage ïvhich are considered to be less exclusive. One
French author in this connection talks about the "nullité radicale" of
such amarriage, which is confirmed by Article 17of the Iraqi Code and
Article 2915of the Moroccan Code. The Tunisian Code handles the
matter by means of a commentary to Article 5.The recent Family Or-
ganizationLaw promulgated for the Tiirks on Cyprus which abandoned
virtuafly all major tenets of Islamic law, still preserves the inhibition of
a marriage between a hloslem fernale and a non-l\Ioslern male.
Mr. MULLER :ow, how does Islamic law, in the countries to wliich
you have referred, differentiate as between men and women?
Mr. POSSONYT :here are many aspects in whii:h Islamic laïv differen-
tiates between men and women; the more important ones, which 1would
like to cover, with Jrour permissioRfr.President, are marriage,succes-
sion and inheritance, value oftestirnany, and divorce.
&Ir.MULLER F:irst then, deal with the question of marriage.
Air.POSSO~Y : man may marry four women; a woman only one man.
Now, reforms have admittedly taken place; thus, the Syrian Law of
Persona1 Status, o1953 ,rovides that ". .. the Court maj7ïvithhold per-
mission foraman, who is aIready married, to rnarry a second wifewhere
it is established that henot in a position to support thern both". The
Moroccan Code of Persona1 Status, of 1958, provides that ". ..if any
injustice is tbe feared between CO-wives,polygarny is not permittcd".
The Tunisian Law of Persond Status, 1957 has gone even further by
prohibiting polygarny. In Egppt, abill which aims at restricting polygamy
and the right of the husband onilaterally to repudiathiswife has been
in preparation since1956. Despite these reforms, however, the present
position in Islamic countries,ave to some estent Tunisia, still is that a
Modem man isbasically, entitled to rnarry four women, while a Moslem
woman is restricted to one husband.
hlr.MULLE R What is the position with regnrd to succession?
Mr. POSSONY: In the law of çuccesçiona rvornan'sportion corresponds
to half othe man's, thus the share of a daughter of a testator will be half
the share of her brothers-this is a simplified descriptiof thc furida-
mental rule.In this regar1 refer to the Moroccan Code, Articles 237-244,
and 256; and the Syrian Code z77/z.
The Lebanon Law of Inheritance, of 1959-Lebanon is not an Islamic
State, but,as 1 pointed out, a mixed Islamic-Christian State-provides
in Article128, that the previous system of inheritance, which was ap- \VITh'ESSEÇ AND EXPERTS 675
plicable to the i\loslems, still is applicable to them-tis, that "the rule
of the double share" isstill in force.
hlr.MULLER : OW, YOU mentioned the value of testimony-can you
very briefly state urhat the position is in that respect?
Mr. POSSONY:The evidence of a woman is never accepted in any
criminal charge, except for matters bearing on gynaecology. In civil
matters, the evidence of two women corresponds.to that of one man.
The authorities are Professor Anderson and Professor Schacht.
Mr. MUI-LER Professor Possony, 1 think the final matter with which
you intend dealing is divorce-riow, kindly mention briefly what differ-
ences exist: in that respect.
>Ir. POSSONY M: r. President, a Moslem man may divorce hi5 wjfe by
' unilaterally repudiating her-1 rnay add that in reporting about these
things, Tdo not necessaril~ agree with what 1 arri reporting oA. Moslem
moman has no such right. Reforms have taken place in this area too. In
strict IsIamic la~va wife has extremely lirnited grounds on which +e
could divorce her husband. A wife inEgypt, for example, rnay nowclam
a divorce [in anÿ of four grounds-failure to support her; affliction of the
husband with some disease, which makes married life dangerous; deser-
tion for at least a year; and treatment of the wife anway which makes
married life intolerable to one of her social standing. The source of that is
Professor Anderson's book, Islamic Law iirthe Modern WurZd, at page
54.
The Syrian Code, Second Book, devotes title I to divorce-that is,
repudiation; title II to divorce by mutual agreement-that is,divorce
in the western sense; and title III to separrition, for various reasoad-
mitted uncler the Sharia as modernized.Article 8j authorizes repudiation,
and Article117 says-and this is a reform provision-thatif the repudia-
tion was quite arbitrary,comfltetenade la gravitddel'arbitrairethe judge
can order the husband to pay alimony for one year-that is all, that is
the maximum.
The Moroccan Code distinguishes between repudiation, which in the
Arabic version is called talaq, and divorce-each of tvhich is treated in a
separate chaptcr. Articles 44-52 are devoted to talaq. The main reforrn
provision js that the repudiation must be legally registered.
The Pakistani AfoslemFamily Laws Ordinance of 1961 confirms the
basis rules of talaq-this is inHuman Righls Yearbookrg61, page 27j-
Al1this is strict Sharia, with jusa few modific,Ctloris.
The codified statutes show a tendency to provide more secunty for
wives, and to describe the system in terms suggesting somewhat more
eqilality between men and women than actually esists, but the funda-
mental rule of the Sharia has been and still is: "A wife has no absolute
right to otitaina.divorce; she has that riglit only under certain specific
contingencics and conditions." This is quoted from a testbook by Nr.
Jhslivala, Mohawnzedafi Law-an Indian textbook on Shariat law,
page 25. A husband can terminate the marriage by unilateral repudiation
for any reason whatever.
In this connection,1 would also like to mention the matter of apostasy.
If a wife of Moslem religion converts to Qiristianity or Judaism, the
marriage rnust be broken imrnediately, and no judicial registration of
repudiation is necessary. This is required because of a verp strict taboo,
irphichisstill directed against apoçtasy, despite the abolitiof cnmind
sanctions against such a deed. The reference is a book by Professor Brug-676 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
man, which has a Dutch title which, in English, means The Significance
of Islam Law in Modern Egyfil,pages 185 and 215.
The following civil consequences are still commonly applied to an
apostate from Islam: (1)the apostatemay not rnarry anybody, whether
a hloslern, a Christian, or another apostate(2)hisor her estate goes to
the Government; (3)his or her marnage is disçolved;(4)the apostate is
not recognized as a Christian; (5)even his Christian relatives, nor any
other apostates,may not inherit from the apostate. Reference is again to
Profesçor Brugman's book, same pages.
Ifa wife convertsto Islam. while her husband remains a non-3~oslem.
the mamage must necessarily and immediately be dissolved.Ifthe hus-
band of aChristian or Jewish wife converts to Islam, hemay repudiate
her immediately.
The PRESIDENT Aar.Muller,the evidence whiclrProfessor Possony haç
been giving us forthe last houris for the purpose of establishing that in
the different countrieswhich he has indicated, there hasbeen the allot-
ment of rights or status, etc., on the bais of belongingatreligion ora
sex or a race-is that the purpose of the evidence?
hlr.MULLER: That is the purpose, hlr. President.
Now, you have dealt with the position in the Islamic States;are there
other States with concentrations of large Moslem groups?
hlr.POSSONY I:general, yes, there are-thereare at leas15countries
where substantial numbers of Moslems are domiciled; this list includes
Cyprus, Ethiopia, India, Indonesia, Israel, Kenya, Lebanon, Mali,
Nigeria, the Philippines, Sudan and Tanganyika. A safe estimate would
bethat there are a minimum of roo million Moslemsin those States.There
are small Moslem cornmunities in rnost of the tropical parts of the former
British Empire and in South Eastern Europe. Einally, thereare a large
number of Moslerns-about 24 million-in the Soviet Union, including
Union Republics like Uzbekistan, which may well be described as
Islamic, iterms of population; some of the centres of 31odem traditions,
like Bukhara and Samarkand, are located in Uzbekistan. There are,
furthemore, Moslem communities and nationalities within the area of
hlainland China.
Ail in all, the Aloslems accoüntfor some 12 per cent. of the \-vorld
population.
Mr. MULLER: What is the position of Moslems in the countries that
vou have iust mentioned?
The PRESIDE NrT :ou going through each one of those now, Mr.
Muller?
Mr. POSSOKY N:o.
Rlr.MULLER1 :beg your ...
The PRESIDEXT:YOUpropose now to go through each one of tliose
countries, do you, hIr. Muller?
bIr.RIULLEH X:O, Mr. President, iis going to be very much shorter
than that.
The PRESIDEST Proceed then.
Jlr.MULLER : enerally, what is the position of the 3ioçlems in the
countries that you have just rnentioned?
Blr.POSSO'IY I: general, and discounting exceptions like tU.S.S.K.,
the Moslemslive under their own persona1 statute, which isoften guaran-
teed constitutionally.ln Africa, south of the Islamic belt, Islamic and
Native legal systems appear in various mixes. There is far reaching legal WITSESSES AND EXPERTS 677
differentiation. But everywhere this rule holdç; the stronger the attach-
ment to Islam, the more neatly the various groups, including the 3loslem
groups inside the Islamic religion, are separated from eacli other.
Mr. MULLER W:ell, can you just give the Court a few examples of the
reasons allowing the Moslcms their own status in siich countries?
Mr. MUJ.LER : r. President, rnay 1just explain at which particular
point of the evidence we are now, relative to the scherne that 1 had
indicated? The Court will recall that Professor Possony iiad indicated
he would deal with differential laws by referring first oailto certain
Asiatic systems, thereaitcr to certain systemsin the Eastern Mediter-
ranean, then pluralistic systems in Islamic countries, and fourthly the
sgstems in various countries dividing advanced from aboriginal groups.
Now we are busy at the moment with the Islarnic countries; he had
dcalt yesterday with the Islamic countries proper, and just before the
adjournmrnt he indicated tliat there were certain countries, not being
Islamic countries proper, in which there are groups of Moslems, and
he was bucy dealing with tliat. 1 shaI1 just ask him a final cluestion
that.
The PRESIDEKT:Procccd, Mr. hluller.
hfr.MULLER Thank you, Sir. Professor Possony, can you give any
esamples of provisions in the countries you referred to yesterday-those
are the non-Islarnic countries, where there are Bloslems-allowing
losl lemtheir own status in such countnes?
hlr.Possosu: Yes, &Ir. President. The Sudan Constitution of 1956,
Article 93,divides the judiciary into the Civil and the Sharia divison-
this is referred toin hlr. Khalil's book The Arab States andthe Arab
League on page 352. The Sudanese courts apply English law in civil
matters, alid are usinga pcnal code derived from the Indian model. In
dealing with Moslems, customary law rnay be ayiplied whcn the Sharia is
silent, according to the Islamic rule. This was espl~tined in a conference
which was held in London between 28 December and I Jnnuary 1959-
1960 under thetitle of The Futurc of Law in Africa.
With respect to Indonesia, the Constitution of Indonesia, Article2512
reads: "Difierences in social and legal needs of the various groupç of the
population shall be taken into consideration." (Peaslee,Constitzrtionof
iLTationsV,ol. IIp. 374.)This is the provision which allows the hloslems
to operate under their own personal statute.
There are many areas where Islamic laïv is regarded as a variety of
Native law and custom. In those areas, the various legal spheres mabe
split betmeen jurisdictions; the 3loslem courts niay be separate, or they
may be joined by another system; or compett:nce may bc attributed
differently from area to arca. For example, the Norther~i Nigerian Penal
Code, Articles 387-388, made clear provisions for applying laws to
subjects only if and when the deed is recognizedas acriminal offence by
Native law or custom to which they belong. For example, Article 403
niakes the drinking of aicohol an offence for BIoslernsonly-thiis in the
Northern Nigerian Penal Code, Cap. 89.
>Ir. NULLER: Other than the Jslamic countries, are there countries
where differential mesures are applied relative to religion?
blr. POSSOXY:For example, the hlexican Constitution, to give one678 SOUTH WEST AFKlCA
example, discriminates againçt perçons of ecclesiastic statüs; for example,
under Article 82/4, and several provisions under Article 130. Article 130,
incidentally, was amended in 1950. The Constitution of Mexico was
written in 19x7 ,nd 1 am using an edition published in Washington,
D.C., in 1964, pages 35 and 60. According to the Mexican Constitution,
no person with ecclesiastic status can be elected President, and only a
person born in Mexico rnay practise what is described as "the ministry
of any denomination". Furthermore, no ministers mny-
"criticize the fundamental laws of the country or the authorities of
the Government, specifically or generally. They shall not have an
active or passive vote, nor the right to form associations for religious
purposes."
There areother stipulations, but 1 can skip those.
There are various differential provisions for ecclesiastic persons in
terms of incompatibility with the parliamentary mandate in such
countries as Uelgium, Israel, Luxembourg, Turkeÿ, India, Italy, Egypt,
Netherlands and Great Britain. This particular type of problem was
worked up, and 1 am quoting from him, by Mr. Francis Humblet in a
"Report on Parliamentary Incompatibility", piiblished inInter-Puylia-
mentavy Uniou, Constitutianalad Parliamentary Information, 1952,
page 230.
Mr. RIULLEI~ Professor Possony, your fourth group that you intended
dealing with were those cases where less advancecl societies are separated
from more advaiiced societies; will you deal with that group, please?
Mr. POSSONY:1 shall try to elucidate the more or less universal
approach in such countries by referring to the esampleofLiberia. Itwill
be convenient to deal with this matter under the following headings:
first, political organization; second, administrative and judicial system;
and third, land rights.
The Republic of Liberia is divided into the country area,a 40-mile
wide strip of territory aIong the sea-coast divided into counties, and the
hinterland. In the county area, the Anglo-American system of juris-
prudence is applied, while the legai system in the hinterland istribal and
customary. Each tribe has its own political organization-this is, for
exarnple, laid down in paragraph 70 of the Aborigines Law which is to
be found in Liberian Code of Laws O#1gj6, Volume 1, page 34; I am not
going to read the provisions of this law.
Mr. MULLER :OUmentioned the administrative and judicial systems;
kindly deal witli that, in so far as Liberia is concerned.
Mr. POSSONY :aragraph 350 of the Aborigines Law in Libevian Code
of Laws of 1956, Volume 1,prorides:
"It is the policy of the Government to administer tribal affairs
through tribal chiefs, who shall govern freely according to tribal
customs and traditions in so far asthey are not contrary to staorte
administrative regulationç."
Thus one finds the dual judicial system under which one person may be
subject to the jurisdiction of a particular court, while another person is
not sosubject. Similarly, one person may be subject to certain laws hvhile
another is not-for exarnple, in relation to marriage. The following
provisions of the Liberian Aborigines Law are relevant; paragraph 123
defines the competence of the court of District Commissioner: WITNESSEÇ AND EXPERTS 679
"The Court of the District Commissioner shall have jurisdiction
in th(: following case(a) in equitable or civil suits arising in the
Hinterland between perçons not Aborigines ..." (Ibid., p. 44.)
Paragraph 125 deals with the Joint Court of the District Cornmissioner
and the Paramount Chief :
"Al1 suits arising in the Hinterland between an Aborigine and a
person not an Aborigine shall be heard in the Joint Court of the
District Commissioner and the Paramount Chief."(Ibid.,p.45.)
The folIo\ïlingprovisos 1wili not reathcy just simply bringthesystem
down step by step so that for each level of tribal affairs connected with
the members of the tribe and mernbers of different tribes, and Aborigines
and non-Aborigines, differentcourts are competent.
Thus, broadly speaking. each tribe has its own courts which operate
under the tribe's legasystem. There are provisions for cases involving
more than one tribe, and focasesinvolving Aborigines and non-Aborig-
ines. Thesystem is logical and allows to each tribe its own identity ;it has
been described as a transitory system. President Tubman of Liberia
expressed hope to the effect that tribal law might be replaced by civil
1aw in about 50 years. This is quoted from hIr. E. S. Munger's book
A fvicanFielR deport 1s952-196 p1ge Irg :
President Tubman is reported to have-
"... strwsed the uneven cultural development of the Liberian
people.He pointed ta the necessity of having two sets of laiv-civil
law (taken from the West) and tribal law ... and cited arguments
heardelsewhere in Africa(includingSouth African reserves) concern-
ing the benefit to aofthis dual code. But he agreed that tribalism
was a temporary phenornenon and çaidhe planned that the Western
civil law be gradually extended from the 40-mile belt along the
coast into the interior until itcovered the whole country ...
President Tubman said he thought tribal law and administration
would be rcplaced througfiout Liberia in abou50years."
Mr. AZULLEK W:hat is the position with regard to land rights in
Liberia?
Mr. POSSONY : s to land, within the hinterland,it is to be made
availablc to tribesqua tribes. The Liberian Aborigines Law, psragraph
270, reads that-
"Each tribe is entitled to thee ofas much of the public land in
theares inhabited by ias required for farming and otherenterprises
essential to tribalnecessities."(Liberia Cnode of Laws of 1956,
Vol.1,p. 60.)
The wording is restrictive, bupossession of such land is protected
"against any erson". The Constitution of Liberia in secti14,which is
quoted in Vo Yurne 1 of theCode (ibidp. .,rg),makes it clear that the
Aborigines areto be protected in the possession of theland;it readsas
follows:
"The purchase of any Iand by any citizen or citizens from the
Aborigines of thiscountry for his or their own use, or for the benefit
of others, orestates, or estates in fee simple, shall be considered nul1
and void to al1intents and purposes."
Public Land Laws, section 30 (ibid.Vol. III, pp. 1188-118 pr)vides
that tribal authoritmust consent to purchases of gound in the hinter-6so SOUTH WEST AFRICA
land. This law also provides that the "parce1 of land iiquestion" rnust
not be "a portion of the Tribal Reserve" and is not otherwise owned or
occupied.
Tribai land possession is protected with respect to Aborigines £rom
different tribes. Thus paragraph 273of the Aborigines Law stipulates:
"A persoii who enters the territory ofa tribc of which he ia not a
member for the purpose of farming, shall observe the following
procedure: (nj obtain permission of the Tribal Authority prior to
commencing his activities; (b) agree to pay some token ...; (c)pay
taxes . . .
In case of his failurtu cornply with any of the foregoing require-
ments, theTribalAuthority may cancel the permission granted and
confiscate the crops."(Ibid.,Vol. 1,p. 6r.)
Liberian policy with respect to the several tribeisgiiided by principles
designed to protect and promote advancement on a tribal basis. 1quote,
to support this,paragraph zgoof the Aborigines Law, Volume 1, page 61,
in the Code, and section 15 of the Constitutiori, page 19 in the Code
(Vol. 1).
Mr. MULLER :irhile you are dealing with Liberia, can you state whether
there are differential methods applied relative to other rnatters, such as
citizenship, land ownership and trade?
Mr. POSSONY 'I'heT-iherian law is very strict with respect to citizen-
ship. ArticleV, section 13, of theConstitution Sap this:
"The great object of forming these Colonics [tliis is Liberia] being
to provide a home for the dispersed and oppressed children of
Africa, and to regenerate and enlighten this benighted continent,
none but Negroes or perçons of Negro descent shall be eligible to
citizenship in this Republic."(Ibid.,p. 18.)
This citizenship provision is supplemented by paragraph SI of the .Miens
and Xationality Law which is quoted on page Iro. (Ibid.)
hlr.GROSS :Ir. President?
The PRESIDENT:Yes, &Ir.Gross.
Mr. GROSS :ust for the sake of followi~igwitti greater clarity-ifthe
President permits-would the President see fitto ask the witness to
identify and cite the document frorn which the quote was appareiitly
taken with respect ...
The PRESIDENT:The immediately preceding quotation? Certainly,
Mr. Gross. Would you please do that, Professor?
Mr. POSSONY 1t is theLiberianCode ojLaws oj1956, published on the
autliority of the Legislature of Liberia and Presiclent William V. S.
Tubman, Constitution and Titles published by Cornell University Press,
Ithaca, New York. The codification was prepared, it says here on the
inside page, for the Republic of Liberia by the Liberian Codification
Project, Cornell University, under the direction of BZiltoR. Konvitz.
the work.OSS:>Ir. President, could the page be cited? 1am familiarwith
The PRESIDEST:Certainly. TVould you do so, Professor?
Blr.Possolr~: 1cited the page-page Iro, the one 1 was just going to
read.
Rlr. G~oss:l'hank pou, Sir.
The PRESII~ENT W:ill you continue?
hlr.POSSQNY The subject 1 am discussing is the supplementation of WITSESSES ASD EXPERTS 68 I
the constitutional citizenship provision in paragraph 81 of the Aliens and
Kationality Law on page IIO of the book 1just demonstrated.
"Eligibilityfor naturalisation. A~ty alien Segro of the age of
21 pears and upward or an' alien person of Segro descent of the
age of 21 years and upmard may become a citizen of the Republic of
Liberia ..."
Only Negoes are allowed to hoId real estate in Liberia. This is implied
in Article V, section12, of the Constitution, which is printed on page 18:
"No person shall be entitled to hold real estate in this Republic,
unless he be a citizen of the same. Nevertheless, tliis Article shall not
be construed to apply to Colonization, Aiissionary, Educational or
othcr benevolent institutions, so long as the property or cstate is
applicd to its legitimate purposes."
Mr. ~IULLEI P~:ofessor Possony, can JTOUdeal with other countries
where thei-e is a division on the same basis, thatisof aclvanccd societies
and lessadvanced societies and Jawsmade accordingly?
hlr. POSSONY O:ne such country is, for example, Sierra Leone. Sierra
Leone, according to the provisions of the Law on Proleclorale Land,
Chapter 122 ofthe Code of Sierra Leone, page 1266 (/), is divided into
the so-called Western Areas and the Provinces, which previously were
called the Protectorate. In the Provinces, according to the preamble of
the law of IAugust 1927:
"Al1land is vested in the tribal authorities, who hold such land for
and on behalf of the native communities concerned."
Article:jprovides:
"(I:INo land in the Protectorate shall be occupied by a non-
Native unless he has first obtained the consent of the tribal authority
to his occupation of such land."
Different laws alço apply to the two different aseas,according to an
Interpretation Act, number 7,published in 1965. On page 21of that Act,
Article 711 reads:
"No act passed before the 1st day of July1953, shall apply to the
Provinces unless it is provided by the Act itself or isextended
thereto by an Act";
and Article 712 :
"Every act passcd on or after the 1st day of July 1953 ,hali
apply throughout Siem Leone unless it is otherwise stated therein
or in any other Act."
Then Article 7J3:
"When any part of the Western Area is, under the provisions of
the Provinces Act, 1gG5, included with atiy Province or District,
such part sIia11become subject to the ennctments for the time being
in force in the Provinces and shall. for judicial and administrative
purposes, be deemed to be part of the Provinces, and, Save aswhere
otheruise provided, no enactment in force in the Western Area only
shallbe applicable to such part."
In Northcrn Nigeria the Land Tenure J,aw of 1962, which is in the
Northern Nigcrian Code, pageA110, part II,No. q (z),deals with Xative
Reserves and tribes : SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"Such Native reserves and lands required to be set açide for
Native reserves or purposes connected therewith shall be deerned to
be Native lands."
It is added under No. 5:
"Al1Native lands and ail rightsover the same are hereby declared
to beunder the control and subject to the disposition of the &finister
and shall be held and administered for the use and cornmon benefit
of the Natives, and no titleto the occupation and use of any such
lands by a non-Native shall be valid without the consent of the
hfinister."
Furthemore, it is provided, in Article 27 on page AII~:
"It shall not be lawful for any Native holding a custornary right
of occupancy to alienatehis right of occupancy or any part thereof
to a non-Native by sale, assignment, mortgage, transfer of posses-
' sion, sub-lease, bequest or otherwise howsoever without the consent
of the Minister first had and obtained."
Land reservations have been made in Basutoland, Bechuanaland,
Swaziland, Northern and Southern Rhodesia and Kenya and, for
convenience sake, 1 refer to the Counter-Mernorial data, III, pages
258-262.
The old Eritrea Constitution of 1gj2, which is of course no longer
applicable, in Article 8311,recognized: "the existence of local commu-
nities." It added that the rights of these cornmunities shall "not be
impaired by any law of a discnminatory nature". This is laid down in the
Inter-Pavliamentary Union,ConstitutionalandParliamentavy Informalion,
1953. pages 163 and 152.
Article 165of the Bolivian Constitution, thisjsin Peaslee, Corsstifution
ofNations V,olume 1, page 201 : "Recognizes and guarantees the esist-
ence of the Native communities".
According to the Pemvian Constitution, Article 211, in Peaslee,
Co?tsiitestionof Nations, Volume III, page 155, Native communities
~vhichdo not possess landin sufficient qusntity, should be provided with
such "by preference" if necessary through expropriation of privateIy
. owned land upon compensation. Article 208 guarantees "the integrity of
the property of the communities". Article 209says that "the property of
the communities . . is inalienable".
Land reservations have also been made, inter aliain Panama, accord-
ingto Article 95 of the Constitution; in Brazil, Article 216of the Consti-
tution; in Canadaand in the United States. References on Brazil are in
Peaçlee. Volume 1, p. 250; references to Canada and the United States
are in the Counter-Mernorial, III, pages263-z6j.
In Sweden, according to a law dating back to 1928: "Certain areas-
those above the cultivation lin-are reserved for the excIusive use othe
Lapps". The sarne law secures for the Lapps the "sole rights of reindeer
breeding". This is quoted from a publication by the SwedishInstitute for
Cultural Relations with Foreign Countries, written by a man called
Israel Ruong, entitled Lapps inSwede?~ ,962,pages 6 and 7. 1 under-
stand that similar provisions exist in Norway. Morerecently, provisions
have been strengthened in this regard in Finland.
So, in general, al1over the world the aboriginal areas are separated from
the advanced areas.
Mr. MULLER : aving dealt with land, can you refer to exampies where WITNESSES AXI3 EXPERTS G83
particular trjbes are, by law, granted their orvn institutions, govern-
mental and judicial?
TliePRESIDEST: Particular what? 1 am sorry 1 did not hear.
Mr. MULLER: Institutions-governmean ndaljudicial institutions
granted to particular tribes.
Mr. Possasu: With regardto goverrimental institutions,1 would like
to refer brjefly to the case of Ghana.In the Declaration of Fundamenta1
Principles, which the President of Ghana, according to Article rg of the
Constitution, has to make upon assumption of office: "Chieftaincy in
Ghana should be guaranteed and preçervetl."
Article49 of the Constitution stipulates:"Tliere shall be a House of
Chiefs for each Region of Ghana." Sources for this line of information
are Rubin and Murray, The Co?astitutilmand Government of Ghana,
pages 253 and 264.
With respect to legal systems,the position is,bnefly,that custornaqr
law applies in most African countries. But it should be appreciated that
the use ofthe term "customary law" does not indicate that there is a
single uniforrn set of customs prevailing throughout a given country.
This term is used rather as a blanket description, covering very many
different systems. These systems are largcly triilal in origiii ausually
operate onty within the area occupied by the tribe. hloreover,theremay
hc local variations within such an area.
Tribal 1au.sare not the only systems covered by the term "customary
Iarv". For example, throughout the Federation of Nigeria this term
includes Islamic law also. This is made explicit in the North by section
2 of the Native Courts Law of 1956, which provides: "Native law and
custom includes Moslem law." Since Islamic la\. originates from outside
Nigeria, it is not grounded in any particular locality and can apply in
appropriate cases throughout the entire country. In large parts of the
North, Isiarnic lawhassupplanted the local systi:mç almost entirely, and
occupies the:sanie position in relation to tliose areas as does Ibo law-
the law of theIbo people-to most of theEast and Yoruba law to most of
the West. Islarniclaw is not always uniform throughout Nigeria and it
may be subject to local variations.
In Ethicipia, the Civil Code of 1960atteniptf:d to put an end to the
diversity of customary Iaws. I quote fram a professor of lâw at the HaiIe
Selassie I University, Mr. Krzeczunowicz, and his article entitled The
Elhiopian Civil Code-lis Usefulwss, Rdation to Custmn, and A++&
cabilily:
"The Ethiopian Civil Code expresses a trend for unification that
makeç little allowance for local variations in customary practices
(e.g.,those concerning intestatesuccessionor matrimonial property).
This, coupled with the unfamiliarity of the Code'stechnical terminol-
ogy, will create inevitable difficultieç in itç applicatio... Some-
what Inore fundamental obstacles are likely tobe encountered in the
shape of the local customs which diverge in substance from the
Code's precepts. It is the prevalence of such divergencies that made
it impossible even to envisage our codificationin term ofa mere
'consolidation' of customary Iaws. But where disregard of local
custorn is carricd too far, the likely conseqiiencisdisregard of the
law by its recipients."
The same author also stated:6s4 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
"As things now stand, difficulties in the Code's application are
common knowledge . . . The Code's patchy application in the
Empire's peripheral areas [was attributed] partly to the fact that
the Code was drafted for the more developed populations, those
which inhabit the plateau of Ethiopia ...
We can indeed observe that even in the more developed areas the
Code'ssolutions are often in aclvanof the people's thinking."
This, hIr.Yresident, 1 think, illustrates that it is not really feasible to
disregard the laws that prevail in tribal societies, and they different
legal systems that characterize pluralistic societies.
As to legislation, the Yakistani Constitution, in Art19,which is Iaid
down in the Inter-Parlinmentary Union,ConstitzctionnlalzdParliamentary
I~fornzation, 1956, page 135, says: "Any section of citizens having a
distinct language, script or culture shall havethe right to preserve the
same."
This same Constitution, in Article27,also provides for the protection
of "minoritics". (lbid.p. 137.)
The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Australia, Articlegr, XXVI,
stipulates tliat Parliament has the poïver "... to make laws for the
peace, order, and good government ..." with respect to". ..the people
ofany race, other than the Aboriginal race in any Stnte, for whom it
deemed necessary to make spccial laws ...".This is in Peaslce, Volume1,
paThe Constitution of Venezuela gives to the Federal llependencies,
which are almost exclusively inhabited by Indians, the,right to establish
their own system of government, administration, juridical systems-this
is laid down in Articles 14 and15 of the Venezuelan Constitution, which
can be found in Inter-Parliamentary Union, Constitutional mzd Parlia-
llzentaryi~z/orm~tion,1961,at page125 (f).
Finally, the New Zealand Electoral Law of1956, provides for Maori
Statutes ofNew oZ~alund,p1908-195 Th7agesn341fi.unBriefly, a Europeane
cannot be registered asavoter in a Maori district, and vice versa. One of
the purposes of this New ZeaIand Iegislation was, of course, and stiis,
to facilitate the ethnic recovery of the Maoris.
Alr.MULLER: Noiv, YOU have deaIt with the position of tribal groups;
can you deal briefly with the position of less advanced groups in certain
developed societies?
Nr. POSSON Y3lr. President, in the southern landof South America,
the Indian, for al1practical purposes, has been elirnina1eam reporting
on the facts...
The PRESIDENT 1did not hear your phrase, Professor.
Mr. I'OSSONY The Indians in thc southern lands of South America
have, for al1practical purposes, bcen elirninated.
In the central parts of Amcrica, lie was pushed away from the east
coast, but still survives in the interior. In the iiorthern part of South
America, notablÿ in the north west, where the Indian originally had a
Incatculture was destroyedlasaa growing concern. les catastrophic, but the
In some parts of Central America, and in IrIexicothe Indians fared
best, but were not spared calamity: in Mexico, gradually over the cen-
turies, theIndian population was dispossessed from its land; it is only
since about 50 years that systematic efforts have been made, and have WITNESSES ASD ESPBIITS
685
been quite successful, in re-establishing the Indian on the land as a
communal landholder. Urazil, 1 believe, was the first Arnerican State
which established a service for the protection of the Indians; that was in
1910. Sirriilar offices or agencies now exist in Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia,
Mexico, Panama, Canada and the United Stiites. Problems for these
agencies, however, can become very difficult whenever the Indian popu-
lation is rnixed with the M'hiteç.
During the last generation, there has devcloped a movement through-
out the whole of Latin America, called I~idigenisrno,which is based on
the recognition that it is necessary to protect the indigenouç commu-
nities in order-and I am paraphrasing herc the hlesican specialist,
Alfredo Cas-to help the Indians reach a level of equality, in com-
parison with the level reached by the Rlestizo community.
The movcment aims at integrating the indigenouç community into
the econoinic life, and pursuesa programme of "planned acculturation",
to preserve among the Indians those cultural elements which are of
positive value, and to find, within the lndiari tradition, substitutes for
those elenients whicli are negative.
The objective is to preserve the Native communities indefinitely.
Special schoolç, run by the Mexican National lnstitute for Indigenous
Matters, aim at what the Spanish term calls cnpacilacibn.This is hard to
transIate.1 translate it somewhat freely as "enablement" or the creation
of capacity.
Mr. NULLER:Can you tell the Court whether, in America, special
provision iç made for the case of Indians?
hlr. POSSONY:The history of the American Indians is quite well
documented. It involved the reduction of about I niillion Indians, at the
beginning of the IVhite occupation, to about 400,000 in 1945. By no"
the United States Indian population stands at 5jo,ooo, two-thirds of
whom livt: on Kcscrvations. bluch of the human loss was due to war;
disease and alcohol, to the destruction of the buffalo,and to ecological
changes.
During the 19th century, in connectionwith the Tndian wars,deliberate
attempts were made to destroy tribal cohesion. In addition, the free
market economy entailed deteterious practices, the most important
result ofwhich was that the Indians lost much of their land.
Arnerican Indian policies were more or lesç destructive until the
presidency of Herbert Hoover. Under President Roosevelt, the Indizn
was given his New Deal. The new programme was that Indian societies
must be protccted, rcgenerated, or set into being de nozio-this is a
paraphrase of a book written by Mr. Collier who, for the entire presidency
of hlr. Franklin Roosevelt, was the Indian Comrnissioner; the Indians
must be given status, rcsponsibility, power and land; they must have
freedom, including the right to organize culturaland religious activities,
and to niaintain unimpeded contact with their children-note the
adumbration in this phrasing of the genocide treaty.
The trilles were allowed what was called self-governing self-deter-
mination, without any limit beyoncl the need to advance bp stages tothe
goal.
According to Blr. Collier, since 1933 more thaii roo tribal dernocracies
have been reborn, but I am afraid that this may be a little optimisticA
few tribes are prosperous, and the Government lias pursued a reasonably
enlightened policy with respect to the Reservations on which the Indians686 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
live, but in some instances large portions of the land are leased to White
farmers who are needed to create revenue for Indian subsistence. There
are many other factors of the Indian crisis, whic1 will notgo into, but
the most important factor, 1 think, is that the culture of the Indians has
lostitsvitality,and thatthe Indians, in a descriptivephrase,do not want
to jump into the melting pot.
In view of these continuing difficulties, Arnerican authori ties are still
arguing about the best policy. The present Cornmissioner of the Bureau of
Indian Affairs wants to pave the way for the Indian "to enter the main
stream of American life, either on or off the Keservation" and, still
quoting, ". ..to educate the Indian so that he can leave, if he chooses,
and to make the Reservation economically viabIe if he does noi .. .".
This was reprinted in the Paris edition of Nm York Herald Tribwwe,
29 September 1965,page 4.
The question is also whether the Indian should be pushed like by a
strict parent, and whether they can ultimately take over, themselves,
industrial activitiesschooling,law enforcement, and administration. As
far asthe Indians themselves are concerned, their spokesmen, according
to recent publications1 have seen, do not think that the Indians have as
yet been given areally fairdeal.
The significant lesson, &Ir.President. is that, for the last 30 years, a
poIicy has been in force in the United States which parantees to the
Indians their homeland. The American policy, perhaps for unavoidable
reasons, falls short of one of development, but it does deal with the
Indians as a group.
hlr.MULLER: NOW you ...
The PRESIDISXT : lrGross?
hlr.GROSS :ust in order to clarify the record as to this line of testi-
mony just completed, the Applicants, with the Court's permission, wish
to note their objection for the general reasons stated. Thistestimony
has, in the Applicants' submission, nothing whatever to do with any
contention made by theApplican ts. Thisevidence, unless by implication
or innuendo, as to which no comment is made by the Applicants, sought
to be adduced at thistime, ~vould seem to have nothing whatever to do
with the Applicants' contention that there are international standards
pursuant to which, amongother things, equality of opportunity should be
protected and equal protection of the laws to individual perçons, as such,
should not be denied; so far as close attention to the witness's testimony
is concerned, thereisnothing which we heard, Sir,which could fairly be
regarded asrelevant to that aspect of the Applicants' case.
The PRESIDENT :Ir.Gross, the sources on which the Applicants reiy.
which are set out in 493 of Our Reply, IV, and pages following, are, of
course, designed to establish that there exists a norm or standard upon
which the Applicants are basing their case.
hlr. G~oss: Yes, Sir.
The PRESIDENT :nd you quote in those sources certain measures
such as the Charter of the United Nations and also you quote, if I recall
correctly, the European Declaration of Human Kights?
Rfr. GROSS:Yes, Sir.
The PRESIDENT I'oü rely upon the latter as evidence of practice in
Europe, to establish that the norm or standard upon which you rely is
consistent with and is evidenced by the practice?
air.G~oss :hat is right, Sir. WITNESSES .4KD EXPERTS 6s7
The PRESIDENT The witness is dealing with a large number of coun-
tries, the whole purpose of the evidence being to establish that there can
be no norm or standard such as you rely upon, having regard to the
practice detailed by him in relation to different States throughout the
world. That isa matter which the Court wili neerl to deliberate upon. It is
not possible for the Applicants, in any case, to limit the evidence, in
relation to practice, to only those particular matters that they rely
upon.
Mr. GROSS hlr. President, subject to the procedure, as it is understood
by the Applicants, it is understood, Sir, that there will be theopportunity
which has been mentioned to discuss the reIeva.nce of this tcstimony in
commentary?
The PHESIDENT M:r. Gross, as 1 have told you before, under the
provisions of the procedure to be followed, it is competent for you to
comment upon the evidence. That does not mean, of course, as we al1
understand, and I know that the Applicants and Respondent so under-
stand, in respect of their final addresses to tlie Court, two additional
general addresçes. It means addresses lirnited to commenton theevidence,
but, necessarily, when you take objection as yoii have, it permits you to
refer to the relevance of the testirnony of any particular witness to
whose evidence you have objected.
&IrGROSS Then, to spare the Court, willnot make specificobjections
for the restof this testimony, Sir.
hlr.MULLER: Professor Possony, you have, up to now, dealt with
cases where, by law, there is differentiation applied between population
groups. Ca.nyou deal with a few cases where the opposite approach has
been applied?
Mr. POSSONY M: r. President, among sedentary groups, Switzerland,
and the Corsicans and the Basques in France, are examples of successful
integration, provided the term "integration" is understood in a broad
politicalst:nse. After centuries of cohabitation, the component ethnic
groups have preserved their ethnic identity.
-4gainst these exceptions, the examples of Austria-Hungary, and its
highly democratic successor, Czechoslovakia, illustrate the contention
that, despite a frarnework which facilitates and hopes for integration,
conflictrnay persist and result in separation.
In immigration countries, assimilation can occur and can be effective,
given a culture of high integrational value and power. This is the case of
the United States, and more precisely the case of the European popula-
tions within the United States; thus there are exceptions. 1 think the
most illustrative exception to therule that integration does not work is
Hawaii, where there is an exceptionalIy effective cohabitation between
the Chinese, Japancse, European and Polynesian, on a small scale, each
group preserving itsidentity, and none being involved in a power
struggle.
Against these exceptions, ae have, for exnrnple, the very recent
experience of 1964,when the religious, linguistic and cultural integration
which had been under way for centuries between Arabs and Africans in
Zanzibar, i:nded ina blood bath.
With respect to Asians in Africa, and of course this is onlyone of many
illustrative exarnples-by Asians 1 mean mostty the Indians in Africa-
there are about 360,000 settled in Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania alone.
The position of these people can be analysed I-)referring toa recent688 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
publication by two Indian brothers, Dr. Dharam and Ur. Yash P. Ghai.
This is in the.Jourau1of Modern Airicala Studics 1965, Vol. III,No. r,
pages 35-51. The article is entitled "Asians in East Africn, Problems and
Prospects".
The authors are lecturers, respectively, at Rlakerere University College,
Kampala, and at the University College of Dar-es-Salaam, Tanzania.
The authors think that Tanganyika-they still wrote under this iezciing
-Ohas aiready ended legal discrimination in the public service". As
reference they quote President Nyerere, who ordered the end of dis-
crimination in January 1964,saying this:
"We cannot allow the growth of first and second class citizen-
ship ... Discrimination against mrtain Tanganyika citizens on
grounds of origin must go. There can be no more prevarication."
(Ibid p. 51.)
This is quoted by tlic two authors from the Turzga?zyikaStandard of
8 January 1964.
The philosophy of the two writers, which I am quoting, is pro-inte-
grationist. To prove this1 will read, briefly, their conclusion:.
"The philosophy of the State has changed in favour of integra-
tion; and one must continue to hope that this great esperiment in
social engineering will succeedd that Asians will be accepted, and
will play a positive role, in the new societiEastfAfrica." (Ibid.)
That is essentiaily the conclusion, but these authors also statethis:
"One thing is certain; if Asians desire to play a vital and progres-
sive role in the new societies of East Africn, they will have to
accept radical.at tinics pzinful, changes in their present positions,
attitudes and behaviour.Not much meaningful discussion has taken
place as to what precise changes are cailed fo(Ibid p.37.)
Now, disregarding the future, as to the present, according to these
authors, the two most salient facts seem to be that many of the Asians
are leaving, or are trying to leavand that preparatory to their depar-
ture,they areexportingcapital.
Historically, the most important contribution of the Asians to East
Africa has been the extension of the monetary econorny into the sub-
sistence areas. Asian traders and artisans introduced attractive consumer
goods to the rural population and also actcd as the main outlets for
produce from the indigenous cornrnunities. Todny, a major economic
contribution by the Asians is the supply of high and middle level man-
power and of capital. According to one estimatc, in mid-1961, Asians
provided a little less than 40 per cent. of professimenalof graduate or
equivalent level,senior administrators and senior managers in commerce
and industry, and about jû per cent. in the next layer of skilled man-
power, including technicians, sub-professional grades, esecutive grades
in the Civil Service,middle management in industry and commerce, and
teachers with sccondary education. Asians also have made very large
contributions in East African medicine, law, engineering, pharmacy and
so on.
Furthermore,they have made an important contribution in the form of
savings and capital invcstment. A high proportion of this capital was
originally generated in commerce and now much of it has been invested in
manufacturingand construction.The two authors write this: "It is difficult to think of any significant sector in the East African
economy where Asian capital, entrepreneurial ability and skills
have not made an appreciable contribution.
The economic success of the Asian community in East Africa lias
been due to their possession of certain qualities essential for economic
development . . . A substantial number of young Asian business-men
possesç in abundance many of the qualities that enabled their
forefathers to amass large fortunes. The[se] qualities ... vitally
important for economic development-are not likely to endear their
possessors to other cornmunities." (Ibid.,p.39.)
For the 60 per cent. or 70 per cent. of the Asian labour force who
derivc their livelihood frorn commerce or fi-omemployment in the public
sector thc prospects appear rather glooniy. ilfricanization in the Civil
Services is likely to be pursued vigorously for years to corne and this
despite the acute shortage of skilled and educated manpower. As a
result of this trend educated Asians are leaving for Canada, the United
Kingdom, India and Pakistan.
With respect to the possibility of acquiring land by Asians, the same
authors state this:
"Agriculture rnigiit therefore be thought of as the possible
solution to the 'Asian problem!; however, for a variety of reasonç
this seems most unlikcly ... The question of land arouses the
deepest emotions among ilfricans and any suggestion of alienating
land for Asian settlement \vouId run into bitter opposition." (Ibid.,
P. 44.)
'The PRESIDENT Professor, may 1ask you a question? You referrcd to
the Asian problem in Africa in your cvidcnce which generally is directed
to the practice, being followed indifferent parts of the world, and wliich
is intende13to iridicate that, in practice, the norm or standards to which
we have refcrred either cionot exist or have not the content which they
are alleged to have, as stated by the Applicants. LVould you be good
enough to indicate tothe Court how you think the testimony which you
have just given in relation to the Asian problem in Africa bears upon the
question as to whether, in practice, there does exist a compliance with
the alleged norm or standards? 1s rny question clear to you?
Mr. Posso~u: Mr. President, 1think in this particular case theevidence
shows that if there were such a norm being practised in East Africa today
it would iiot be to the benefit of the particular group, in this case the
Indians in East Africa, which 1 have been discussing. In other words, the
group representation which esisted before and the protection which the
Indians enjoyetl in East Africa have been essentially eliminated, and the
result of this hris been that the Tndians, as these quotes show, are now
confronted by the difficulty of finding employ~nent and are leaving. In
other words, xvehave here, in addition to the question of the norm, the
historic development of separation. At least, it would seem to rnany of
those Indians to be the case that they have no future in the area and
therefore a separation is carried out by means of emigration.
Thc PRESIDEST:RIr. Gross.
&Ir. GRI~SSI:f the AppIicants understood the response juçt made by
the witness to the honourable President's question, it would perhaps
help to clarify the points to which his evidence is directed, as understood SOUTH \%'ESTAFRICX
690
by the Applicants. The witness seems to be saying that his testirnony,
just concluded on this point, is designed to show that the application af
standardor a norm, if such a norm exists asa matter of law, which would
protect equality of opportunity and equal protection of law to the
persons to whom he refers, would not be to their benefit, Sir. That is
what the Applicants understand by the witness's answer.
The PRESIDENT T:he witness said "in addition to the question of the
norm".
Mr. G~oss: Yes, Sir. Thestandards or the norm, if it exists aa matter
of international law, but referring to either branch of the argument, that,
the application of of the standards for which we contend for inter-
pretation of the Mandate or the international legal rule which we insist
alternatively exists as a rnatter of law, that the application of those
standards or that norm, if either exist, would mean that the grantirig of
equality of opportunity or equal protection of the laws to the perçons
or groups to whom he refers would be detrimental to their welfare or
against their benefit. This is Our understanding of the response to the
honourable President's question, Sir.
The PRESIDEXT\:l?iat is the point that you are taking, Mr. Gross?
\'ou are objecting to the evidence or what?
Mr. GROÇS: My point, Sir, is that on the basis of this understanding,
it would support the basis of the objection made to the relevance of the
testimony.
The PRESIDENT O:ne question, Mr. Gross, which is involved basically
in this case, is the meaning to be accorded to Article 2,paragraph 2,of
1
the Mandate, the words of which 1need not repeat. 1sit your contention
that if it is established that to apply the norm which you allege exists,
would be contrary tothe welfare, social progress and development of the
people of South West Africa, that jswholly irrelevant to the Court?
Mr. GROSS:NO. Sir.
The PRESDENT:Then 1 think the evidence had better bepermitted.
The question will be determined by the Court when it proceeds with its
deliberations.
Nr. GROSS:Rfr. President, in order to preçerve the position of the
Applicants and to do justice to thefullto the point made by the President
-my affirmative response is based upon my understanding of the
question as addressed and its intention-]: should like, Sir, to consider
it further when 1 have had an opportunity of reading the question in the
verbatim record to see whether it justifies a further response. because 1
am not certain that 1understood the President.
The PRESIDENT T:his is not the time for responses. 1sought to clarify
and perhaps the fault is mine. The Court, however, must have clarified,
asit goes along, the directionwhich evidence has taken and 1 sought by
asking the question to have the witness's own summary of the direction
of his evidence and the conclusion which might be drawn from it. The
question which 1 put to you is, and 1put itagain so that you can recon-
sideritdo you Say that evidence which is designed to establish that the
standard which you claim to exist-I leave out the norm at the moment-
ifit were applied would be contrary to the social progress, the welfare
and the development of the people of South West Africa, that such
evidence would bt: irrelevant? You need not answer it now ifyou want to
think about it.
hIr.GROSS :would for the sake of the record, ifthe President will JVITNESSESAND EXPERTS 69*
induIge, attempt to indicate the Applicaiits' approach toward the
problem posed by the President.
The PRESIDENT D:O you or do you not say that it is relevant, &Ir.
Gross? First give me the answer to that question.
Mr. GROSÇ: Well, Sir, 1 do not think 1 can answer yes or no.
The PRESIDEN T:think we will leave al1 tliis to comment Iater on,
Mr. Gross. \Vil1you proceed, Alr. Aluller?
Mr. MULLER : r. President, as this question may arise also with regard
to what follows, may 1 just esplain . . .?
The PRESIDENT : o, Jlr. illuller, please continue putting jrour ques-
tions and if we havenpthing we need to consider, we will do sa.
hlr.MULLER If the Court pleases.
Mr. POSSONY R:lrPresident, may 1 just mention . .?
The PRESIDENT: No, Professor, 1 think it is better to follow the
procedure of having the questions asked andreceiving the answer.
IllrMULLERN : OW, Professor Possoiiy, does thereappear to be any
solution to the problem which you have just dt:scribecl?
Mr. POSSONY :he same authors whoin 1 have been quoting, Mr.
President, state that if. the Asians can integrate effectively at the
political level, the economicroblems could be dealt with more success-
fully, but what then is the political situatSince the vote of the Asian
populatioii can only be very small, the Asians cannot have any real
influence under a system of proportionate ri:prescntation.With the
disappearance of communal representation, few Asians can hope to win
an electiori on the strength of the Asian vote donc. This would, 1 think,
make it very difficult to fiasolution oii tlie political level. With respect
to the social level, it is also stated that socials betwcen Asianand
Africans areneither extensive nor intimate :
"Tlie residential areas of townships are çtill segrcgated (no longer
by law, however); but the African elite is leaving the ilfrican
locations and moving into European or ul~per class Asian areas."
There is no longer segregation in hospitalsand cammunity centres
but there isno socialmis in^.
..,
"Tliis is hardly surprising when one considers the profound
differilnces in culture anways of Iife.In addition, there areeco-
nomiç barriers; manual workers and industrialists do not rnix
socially as a rule, even if they are of tlie same colour." (lbid.,
PP. 47-48.}
The authar suggests that two paths can be chosen-either pluralism
or assimilation. They deal with both suggestions and, as 1 indicated,
they favour integration-that is assimilat~on. Howcver, they acknow-
ledge that there wili be a "substantial net emigration of Asians from
East Africa". In this regard, they state:
"Alost Asians think that they have no future in East Africa,
where, they feel, race is too fundamental a factor, and that no
measure of integration will help them.(Ibid.,p. 50.)
Mr. MUI-LER: 1'0~ said earlier on that pou would-deal with the espe-
riences of the position of Africans in Americn. Can you do so briefly?
Rlr. POSSOXY The Afro-American experienct: has l;uted about twice
as long as the Asian-Afro experience. The nunlbers of Afro-Americans
are relatively and absoluteIy far larger and thcrefore the situation might,
irnder sonie considerations, allow for a more successfui solution. In hgz SOUTH IEÇT AFRICA
addition the prevailing ideology has favoured integration even though it
is self-evident that there are graduations in the enthusiasm for this
solution.
There have been recent atternpts in the United States to advance
integration energetically. This energetic applicationof the integrationist
approach appears to be a rcaction to the fact that spontaneous forces of
integration are weak. 1 will deal with this subject briefly under the
headings of segregation in housing, schooling and employment.
Mr. R~ULLE RThe Professor will deal with housing.
Mr. POSSOKY S:tatistics show that the Negro and European groups
are, to a very large estent, still segregatin their own residentialareas.
Therc are cornparisons made in the time sequence between 1944 and 1950
and 1960. It is quite clear that there has been very little change.
Recently a so-called segregation index has been constructed. This is
published inthe August issue of the ScientificAmerican, pages 12ff.,and
again f may stress, that the author, by implication, even though this is a
straightforward argument, is very much opposcd to segregation. Now,
the segregation index is baseci on the nurnbers of households in an urban
area. 1 should also add that the statistics were worked out with the
benefitof cornputers sothat there has been a very broad coverage of the
UnitedStates. An index of one hundred would indicate that the particular
area is compietely segregated, that is it is either fully BIack or fully
White. The results arethat for more than 200 American cities the indices
range from 60 per cent. to 98 per cent. The 60 per cent. indes appliesto
San José, California, and the 98 per cent. index to Fort Lauderdale,
Florida.Kow the median value, that is half of the cities are on one side,
below the other half on the other side, above, is87.8 per cent. (roughly
88per cent .).
In New York the index measuring segregation between Negroes and
Whites stands at 80 per cent., that measuring between Negroes and
Puerto Ricans is over 60 pcr cent. In Los Angeles the separation between
Ncgroes and persons with Spanish surnames and other etliiiic groups
varies between 6j per cent. and 7j per cent. l'hesegregationbetween
those with Spanish surnames and other races is around 50 per cent. in
Los Aiigeles.
Rlr. ~IGLLER I:hat, very briefly, is the position with regard to the
schools?
JIr.POSSOXY:Educational desegregation is linked to the segregation
pattern in housing, of course. Children inevitably must attend schoolç
that arc in their neighbourhood. There is also the trend that as Negro
- children appear in large numbers in White schools, the White families
move to subiirbs or, if they can afford it, paÿ for private schools, and
White cliildren aretaken out. 'There hns been a steady increase in the
number of school districts which have been desegregated. 13y 1963about
one-tliird of the school districts were rcported to have been desegregated,
and presumably the present figure is higher. By 1963 about I per cent.
of the Xegro children in the II former Confederate Statcs were in
desegregated schools. In 17southern states and inthe district of Columbia
the figure n-as about S per cent. In the border states58 per cent. of the
Negro school population rcportedly attended bi-racial classes during
1g63 and 1964. Outside the southern areas, sorne areas uncloubtedly have
full desegregation. However, it must be remembered that descgregation
also may be a merely forma1 gesture. It may mean iio more, ancl fre- WITNESSES AN11 EXPERTS 693
quently does not mean more, than that a smnll nurnber of Kcgro children
are attending %lite schools, or conversely that a few White childrcn
have been assigned to Black schools.
I think I can best summarize this bp quoting risurvey which was
published in the Sa~c FvanciscoE.z-anai~leof 5 August. I have the article
here for inspectioti, about the scl~oolsegregation problem in San Iîran-
cisco, which says this:
"San Francisco has 95 elementary schools. Fifteen [of those
schools] havego per cent. or more Caucasi;tn pupils, cight argo per
cent. or more Negro, and Orientais maki: up go per cent. or more
of the student body in four."
The success of desegregation can be measured by this sentence:
"Seven of the schools have an almost 50 to 50 White and non-White
ratio."
Mr. MULLER :ari you tell the Court verybriefly what the position is
with regard to ernployment opportunities?
&Ir.POSSONY T:he Negroes have about twice the unemplojment rate
of the Wliites, partly because tbey are concentrated in unskilled and
temporary jobs.
The PRESIDENT: 1am sorry to interrupt again. Mr. Muller, would you
indicate why it is necessarÿ to have al1 this detail in respectof the
problem of desegregation in the U.S.A., and what bearings it has upon
the issues the Court has to decide?
Mr. MULLER: As 1 intended just now, BIr. l?resident, to indicate the
position, ivehave called this witness to show, first ofal],that having
regard to practice and ilsage in the world a nctrm such as suggested by
the Applicants is not observed, and secondly, Mr. I'resident, to express
an opinion as to the application of suc11a norni in al1circumstances.He
will attht: endindicate tothe Court that there are dificulties in applying
the norm in particular circumstances. This evidence deals with the
second part of his testiniony.
The PRESIDENT:Very well, proceed.
Mr. G~oss: Mr. President, just to be absnlutely certain as to the
significance of counsel'ç response, the norm andlor standards relate to
official goxTernmentaction and policy, and thc testimony to which the
Court is now addressing its attention relates tsocial,political, economic
phenornelia which isconceded by the Applica~~tsto exist in the United
States and in various parts of the world, but, as undecstood by the
Applicants, the testimony has not addressed itselfto the fundamental
proposition which underlies the norm and the standards, and both. and
that is official actioby govcrnments, Sir. Aiid on this basis it would
seem that the testimony is similarly irrelevant to the Applicnnts'
contention.
The PRKSIDEX T:, Gross, a great deal of tlie evidencofthe witness
refers to laws of different countries whiclI assunie can be put into the
category of officia1action by States, and much of it also refers to specific
Icgislatioil. It is thc 1st pointmade by you with ivhich we are now
concernet.l. Inwhat ivay, Mr. Rluller, are the social habits of the people
of the U.S.A. relevant ta the issuewe have tu dealwith? This witness is
not called for the piirpose of estahlishiiig that. the social habiof any
particular country show that in a society which consiçtsofmore than one
racial group one racial group is antagonistic to the other-or is not694 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
prepared to rnixwith it, or things of that description. It seems rather on
the periphery of things, does it not, to be seeking to pursuade the Court
that this type of evidence will really bear upon the issues the Court haç to
decide.
Mr. MULLER:Mr. President, as 1 have indicatcd, the witness will
eventually state his opinion as to whether the norrn cabe appliedin al1
countries under al1circumstances at al1tirnes.1 am referring to an alle-
gation made by my lear~led friend during the course of argument. The
witness will use çome of fhese exampIes inexpressing his opinion at the
end, hlr. Presidcnt.
The PRESIDENT: The evidence with which the witness is resently
concerned with, or ha been dealing with, could be erpresreB in more
sumrnary form, because after al1it does not deal with whata State does,
it sirnply establishes that certain groups of people because thespring
fromthis or that race have certain social attitudes one to the other, and
that does not seem to assist the Court very much.
Mr, MULLER W:ith respect, Mr. Presidenin this particular case there
is government policy applied which enforces integration.
The PRESIDENT :es, 1 am aware of that.
Mr. ~~ULLEK: And in that respect,Mr. Preçident, this is a case where
apparently a norm of the nature contended for by my learned friend is
attempted to be applied.
The YRESIDENTD : id YOU Say: "1s attempted to be applied"?
Mr.MULLER l'es, &Ir.President, and the witness will then state what
lesson he learns from the atternpfs in applying it in this particular
sector.
The PRESIDEXT I: short what you say is that even although the
officia1attitudand legislation and law of the United States of America is
determined to put an end to segregation, or is directed to that end, that
the social attitudes of its people can asçist the Court in determining
whether integration in South 1lrest Africa would be for the social ad-
vancement and welfare of the people of South West Africa. 1sthat your
contention?
hlr.MULLER Y:es, it will assist the witness, Mr. President, in stating an
opinion in the end as to whether he considers that the norm can be
applied under each and every circumstance.
Mr. President,1 have,on reconsideration, decided to cut this part of the
matter short just.byasking ProfessorPossony one question which will be
a general one.
The PRESIDENT : hank you, Mr. Muller.
hfr. &IULLBI< P:rofessor Possony, can you tell the Court whether any
view has recently been expressed that the situation in America can best
be handled by having differential treatment for the Negroes?
hlr. POSSOKY :resident Johnson, 1st summer, made a speech at
Howard University; which mas baçed on a report by the Department of
Labor. 1 am reading from a comment in TheEconotntstof 28August 1965.
The report on which air. Johnson based himself is entitledThe Negro
Family-The Casefor National Action and it is accepted as generally
applicable to lower class Negro urban life, and it has this de~cription~in
it: "Massive deterioration of the fabric of [Negro] society and its in-
stitutions."It addsthe condition of the American Negro inrecent years
has "probably been getting worse,not better".
The Ecorzomistwrites : WITKESÇES AND EXPERTS
695
"Negroes as a group are not equal to the cornpetition of American
life and instead of beginning to draw level are falling further behind."
Then this comment follows:
"If the logic of the report is followed,American policy towards the
Negroes must presuniably move out of the phase of striving for the
goal of non-discrimination and engage in a deliberate and novel
effort to discrirninate in the Negro's favour until real, not legalistic,
equality is within his reach."
Mr. MULLER : rofessor Possony, moving to another field now, can you
Say whether in America there are stiU laws in existence differentiating
between people on the basis of membership in a group?
Mr. POSSONY :here are still17 states in the United States, or one-
third of the members of the American Federation, which outlawmarriage
between Whites and Negroes. The number of states, as of ten years ago,
was 30-then it was two-thirdç. 1 will not read al1 the definitionsof
"Negro", but these include "descendant of a Negro" or "no ascertainable
trace" of Negro descent, "to the fourth generation", "to the third
generatiori", "one-eighth or more of Negro blocid", etc.
In Florida, under Article 741.11 offspring of a mixed marriage are
incapable of receiving inheritance.
There are also prohibitions to marriage betwr:en Negroesand Indians.
Mr. MULLER: I wish to proceed now to the third part of Professor
Possony's evidence. It is that part which, athe opening of the evidence,
1 indicated would deal with attempts in the international sphere to
formulate uniform objectiveswith regard to the treatment of individuals
and ethnic groups.
Professor Possony, are there any international conventions for the
protection of cthnicgroups?
Mr. POSSONY Y:es, there is the Genocide Convention of 1948, which
came into force in 1951. The Convention has bcen ratified by 57 States.
The United States did not ratify it for technical reasons-there were
some objections to some of the articles.
The Corivention could be interpreted to mean that it provides to each
ethnic group the fundamental right of survival. 1 may add that there is
an Act in Tsraelof 1950 implementing the Convention through statutory
law.
In connection with the Human Rights Declaration and the attempt to
draft the Covenant of Human Rights, the distinction between the rights
of the individuals and the rights of groupsas frequentlÿ debated and it
was decided to work out a staternent on self-determination. In 1952 a
so-called article on self-determination was inserted between the preanible
and the regular articles of the Draft Coveiiant on Economic, Social and
Cultural Rights and theDraft Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
There aremany sources in this connection but 1have used the United
Nations Bulletzk, Volume XIII, No. 5, I Septernber 19.52,page 253.
This article accords to al1 peoples and al1 riations the right of self-
determination. Thus, self-determination is defined as a right instead of a
principle and it applies to peoples as wellas nations. It is furthermore
defined bÿ General Assembly resolution j45 VI, February 1952, as:
"The right freely to determine their political, econornic, social and
cultural status."
Mr. Malik of Lebanon, who presided over the committee meetings696 SOUTH $\EST AFRICA
which drafted this test, surnmarized his experiences in the drafting
sessions as follows:"Thc prob1em is genuinely and objcctively cornplex."
This is from the same source which 1 quoted before-the Bntlleti~rHe
continues: "The mind does not at first suspect the formidable com-
plexity concealed under this idea" of self-determination.
hlany of the questions that were debated had not been dealt with in
the article that was adopted. For example, the dependence of other
rights upon the prior realization of self-determination, the inter-relrt-
tionships between self-determination on the one hand and freedom.
independence and self-governnient on the other; tlie definition of people
and nation, the methods by which it is determiiied when and how the
right can be invoked, and the problern ofwhat hlr.Malik called "cultural
determination".
Finally, in the \vords of Mr. aialik: "1s the right of self-determination,
according to the Chartcr, unquaiified? Is itsubject to over-arching .
considerations of international security and peace?"
In 1955, the General Assembly \vas given a draft resolution for the
purposes of establishing an ad hoc Commission on self-determination to
examine, inter dia, the concepts of peoples and nations; the applica-
biiity of "principles of equal rights and self-deterrnination, includitig
the rights and dutiesof States"; the relationship betwcen the principle of
self-determination and other Charter principles; and finally, to examine
also, the conditions undcr which the application of the principle is
facilitated. The proposal waçbased on the consideration that "there is a
wide difference of views regarding the rneaning and applicability of the
principles of equal rights and of self-determination of peoples, as men-
tioned in Article I of the Charterv-this is quoted from the United
hratiofzs Yenvbook 19j5, page 353. ilccording to this text tiierefore,
self-(letermination was reduced again to the statris ofa principle, which
is inconformance, of course, with Article I (1)of the Charter.
In thc discussion within the Third Cornmittee on principle varsus
right, the statement miide that as a principle seIf-determinationhas
a strong moral force but it is"too cornples to translateinto lega1 terms
in an instrument lvhich vas to be legally enforcedM-U?zited Natio?zs
Ycarbook19 jj, page 161.
In 1957, the General Assernbly took up tlie rnatter ngain and discussed
self-determination as a right, but no precise worcling was proposed. In
the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries
and Peoples, resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 Decembcr 1960, the General
Assembly referred, in the preamble, to "the principles of equal rights...
of al1 peoples", but in Article 2 it declared that "al1 peoples have the
right to self-determination;hy virtue of that right they freely determine
their political status and freely pursue their economic. social and culturel
developrnentW-this is frorn the United Nations Yearbook1960, page
49.
bIr.MULLER: Are there international agreements on the rights of
individuals?
Mr. POSSONYN : O,there are not. There is the Human Rights Decln-
ration of 1948.This declaration was issued by the General hssembly as a
statemcnt defining human rights in general terms so that on the bnsis
of this declaration and of the ideas espounded in the declaration aii
international convention could be elaborated. In a formulation which
recurred frequently at that time, for esample, it was used by 3Irs. WITSESSES AND EXPEtiTS 697
Roosevelt, the Universal neclaration of Hiim;in Rights is of a rnoral
rather than a legal nature; it indicates goals rather than imposes obliga-
tions uporl States.
Although the dcclaration wss praised it was also criticizcd in the
United Nations as not being complete; for exainple, there was criticism
that the rninority question was not t:tken up effectively. The General
Assembly, in its resolution 217 (III) C of IO Decetnber 1949, adrnitted:
"It is difficulto :idopt a uniform solution of this cornples and delicate
question which hns special aspects in each State in which it arisesW-
United Notions Yeaïbook 1948-1949, page 544; additional references are
United Natio?as Ireurbook1947-1948, pages 573-577 and the Yearbook on
Hama~iKights rg&, page 461.
This very criticism was taken up in tlie first session which the Corn-
mission ort Human Rights devoted to the drafting of ü convention. l'hc
discussions denIt with the rights of etlinic, lingiiistic or religious minori-
ties to establish and maintain schools, cultural and religious institutions,
and to ust: their own language in tlie press, public assembly and before
the courts.In this connection. the Sub-Commission on the Prevention of
Discrimination and the Protection of hlinorities referred to minorities
as: "well-ilefined ethnic linguistic or religious groups, which are clearly
distinguislied from the rest of the population and which want to be
accorded differential treatment." The quote is from the Yearbook on
HergnattHiglzls1948. page 461.
The drafting of the Human Rights Convention has been continuing
ever since, though an initial draft for such a convention has been in
existence since 1950. In addition considerable work has beeri donc in
dealirig with spccific rights such as niinorities, women, information,
education and rnany other issues arising under the heading of humnn
rights. However, no international convention has resulted from this
labour and no convention has been ratifieclor is legallin force.
Ur. MULLER:From Our study of the siibject, can >7ousay what are
the difficulties holding up a convention?
$Ir.Posçoxs: Jlr. President, 1believe that the difficulties fall into two
broad categories: those of an intellectual nature and those of a political
nature. Arnong the intellectual difficulties, there is the realization that
however binding and persuasive a particular 1-ightmay be, many es-
ceptions are legitirnate and unavoidable. 'i'hepractical difficulty, there-
fore, is toclraft the reIevant articlinsuch :Lway that the right is for~iiu-
lated in a bincling fashion and the legitimate exceptions allon~eclin such a
manner that the fundamental right is iiot invalidated or that tlie es-
ceptions do not take precedence and lend themselves to justifying non-
cornpliance. It has proved difficult to link the rights of individuals with
the rights of groups especially silice the rights of groups, including the
rights of States, have not yet been properly formulated; for rights of
States there is not even an initial United Nations formulation. There is
also the question of the balance between the various rights and the
priority of ccrtain rights. Finally,the whole cornplex of implcmentation
in different social realities, the timing of n progr:unrne of realization, and
the measurernent of accomplishment-al1 these are \vide-open questions.
Mr. MULLI:I :IYOUalso mentioned that some of the difficulties are of a
political nature, willyou çtate what yoii mcan by that?
Mr. Possoxs: Politically, there is the problem of mutuality of control,
supervisioii, and the very significant question of how a Member of the SOUTH WEST AFRICA
698
United Nations who does not want to move in one or the other direction
may be brought in line.
But perhaps the most important stumbling-block is the problem of
sovereignty. If the whole effort is to be under United Nations supervision,
and this seems to be the implication, then ipso factothe United Nations
must gain direct and decisive influence upon the interna1 affairs of
member nations. This would raise probiems under Article z (1)of the
Charter, not to mention the enormous complications which would arise
in the politicalreality,such as the possible requirernent of constitutional
and statutory change.
In the interpretation of Charles Malik, the work on the International
Bill of Rights was begun in what he calls "an initial impulse of OUT in-
experience". This is again in Volume XII1 of the United Nations Bulletin.
There were to be three steps, as &Ir.Malik explains it:a deciaration de-
fining the rights and freedoms theoretically;a series of covenants binding
"adhering States" to the observance of the rights and freedoms elaborated
in the declaration; and measures of implemeritation (1 am quoting
hlr. Malikagain)-
"whereby the international community can be sure that human
rights and fundamental freedoms,whether on the level of the Charter
or of the Declaration or of the Covenants, arein fact being promoted
and observed".
After the first step was completed in 1948 it was thought (and this is
again RIr. Malik's evaluation) that the other two steps "would be forth-
coming in speedy succession". Mr. Malik added in 1952 :
"We have been grappling with them now for four years, and
while much, indeed, haç been accomplished during this time, the end
is not yet in sight. We have all been sobered by the realization of
the truIy formidable task assigned to us."
Mr. Malik inthis contest referred to the-
"radical differences that obtain in the interpretation ofMan arnong
the effective cultures of the world, somestressing this, some stressing
that side of his nature".
Mr. Malik's conclusion is as follows:
"We now know that the nobility and importance of our task is
rnatched only by its inherent dificulty, and by the long time we must
in al1fairness allow for its unfolding."
hfr. ~IULLER:What are some of the exceptions to the rights which
make drafting of a covenant difficult?
Mr. POSSONY1 : can deal with this.Mr. President, by mentioning just
certain examples. Thus Article 9 of the Draft Covenant on Civil and
Political Rights formulating freedom of movemeiit does not state al! the
exceptions that were identified, but carries a general exemption clause
which reads as follows:
"Subject toany general law of the State concerned which provides
for such reasonable restriction as may be necessary to protect
national security, public safetp, health ormorals, or the rights and
freedoms of others consistent with the other rights recognized in this
Covenant ." WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
699
Similarly the right to freedom of expression (AI-ticle15) is said to carry
tvith it "special duties and responsibilitieand it may be-
"subject to certain restrictions, but thes: shall be such only as
provided by law and are necessary, first, for the rights or reputations
of otfiers; second, for the protection of natioiial security or public
order or of public health or morals".
Article 16,dealing with peaceful assembly, has the standard exception
of the-
"intesests of national security or public safcty, public order, the
protection of public health or morals,or tht: protection of the rights
and fitedoms of others", restrictions which are "in conformity with
the Iaw and which are necessary in adcmocratic society ".
Inthe Draft Convention on Freedorn of Information elaborated in 1960,
Article 2 enlarges the standard exception to include ordre public, this
term is used in French because, according to the discussion, there is no
proper English equivalent. The exceptions to freedom of information
include :
"systcmatic dissemination of false reports harmful to friendly rela-
tions among nations, and of expressions inciting to war, or to
national, racial or religious hatred ... incitement to violence and
crime. public health and morals, the right, Iionour and reputation of
others and the fair administration of justice".
These difficulties are reflectedinsome of the Constitutioiis that have
been draftt:d to comply with the principles of the Human Kights Declara-
tion. Thus, for example, in the Constitution ofNigeria there recurs a
standard exception clause which is worded as follows: "Nothing in this
section shall invalidate any law that is reaçonably justifiable in a demo-
cratic society." This phrase recurs very often, but 1 will not quote the
various articles ...
hlr.MULLER : OWdo the draft covenants attempt to deal with the
problems ctfcomplying with the Human Kights Declaration relative, for
instance, to the time factor?
Mr. POSSONY T:he covenants include what might be called a principle
of progressive realization. For example, an article of the Covenant on
Economic, Social and Cultural Rights states that each party-
"undertakeç to take steps, individuaily and through international
CO-operation, to the maximum of its available resources, with a
view toward achieving progressively the full realization of the rights
recognized in this Covenant by legislative as well as by other means".
This is quoted from the Yearbook of the United Nations, 1962, page 312.
This wording, 1 may add, admits implicitly that even with maximum
utilizationof available resources, realization can only be gradua]. It is
notable th:it the article does not refer to difficulties other than limitations
of resources. However, in the discussions of 1962-this is from the same
source, and the reference is to page 313-the general inadequacy of
resources was stressed.
In this regard itmay also be mentioned that with respect to Article 22
of the Uraft Convention on Human Rights, dealing with inequalities
between husband and wife, it was argued that the particular paragraph
"should ba drafted for the future" so as "not to offend unnecessarily700 SOUTH WEST AFKICA
those who accept long-established traditions and customs". 'I'hisiin the
Yearbook,1961, at page 297.
hIr. MULLER:How do the draft covenants attempt to deal with the
matter of minorities?
Mr. Possos~ :The Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination
and Protection of Minorities, after defining what it meant by the term
"minorities", said that among these-
"are groups that need to be protected by special measures, national
or international, so that theyan preserve and develop the traditions
or characteristicin question".
This is inYearbook on Nzcnzan Rights 1950, page 490. The Sub-Com-
mission recognized the-
"undesirability of interfering with the spontaneous developments
which take place when impact such as that ofa new environment, or
that of modern mcans of communication, produce a state of rapid
racial, social, cultural or Iinguistic evolution".
This is again at the same place.
According to this Sub-Commission, the term "minority" includes only
those groups which posscss-
"stable etlinic, religious or Iinguistic traditions or characteristics
markedly differcnt from those of the rest of the population",
and-this iça paraphrase-who wish to preserve those differences.
Mr.MULLER Y OU have dealt with theatteniytstodraft a human rights
covenant or covenants-how is the question of racial discrimination
being dealt with in the Unitcd Nations?
Mr. POSSONY:1 think this matter cnn best bi: discusscd by referring
first to certain developments which preceded the 1963 Declnration on
13acialDiscrimination, and then to discuss the Declaration itscIf.
Shortly after the founding of the United Nations a Sub-Commission on
the Prevention of Discrimination and thc Protection of Minorities was
created within the Economic and Social Council, and the meaning of
"prevention of discrimination and the protection of minorities" \vas
discussed. One good source for this is the publication by the Economic
and Social Council E/Cli.4/Sub. 2/40 of 7 June 1949, page 3. The Sub-
Commission defined prcvention of discrimination as the "prevention of
any action nlhich denies to individuals or groups of people equality of
treatment which they map wish", this is on page 4. The protection of
minorities who wish "for equality of treatrnent with the majority" may
involve-
"a measure of differential treatment in order to preserve basic
characteristicsivhich they possess, and which distinguish them from
the majority".
Protection applies equnlly to all, and differential treatmentisjustified
"when it is exercised in the interest of tlicir contentment ancl the welfare
of the cornmunity as a whole". It is added that "the characteristics
meriting such protection are race, religion and language".
The Sub-Commission argued (ibid p. 5) that the prevention of dis-
crimination requices the "elimiaation of any distinctions impsed",
while the protection of minorities would require "safeguards to preserve
certain distinctionsoluntarily maintained".
The Sub-Commission used the word "c~iscrin~iriation"in its pejorative WLTNESSES AND EXPERTS 70'
sense;by this it was rneant thattheterm does not reler to al1differentia-
tions, but only to those "distinctions \!-hichhave been establishetothe
dctrimeiit of individuals bclonging to a particular group".
In 1962 the Third Comrnittee of the General Assembly \vas discussing
Article 2of the Ilraft Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights,
whose paragraph z states that the parties undcrtake to parantee that
the rights-
"will be exercised without distinction of any kind. such as race,
coloui',sex, language, religion, political or other opinion,national or
social origin, property, birth or other status".
This quote is from the Yearbookof theUniledhraliolzs1962, page 313.This
mording concerning distinction was amended to read "without discrimi-
nation of any kind".
In deliberating about this change, the Cornmittee unanimously held:
"that the protective measures taken by various States for the
benefit of certain socially and educationally backïvard groups the
population were aimed at re-estabIishing equality and coiild not,
therefore, be violations of Artic2''.
Thus, protective differential treatment, which aims at establishing
equality appears tobe legitimate.
In grappling with the same problern, Uiiesco, in a Draft Convention
against Discrimination in Education, dated 14 December 1960 ,efined
discrimination as any distinction, escIusion, limitation or preference,
~vhichis bascd on race, colour, sex. Innguage, religion, etc., and "has the
purpose or effect of nullifying or impairiiig thquality of treatment in
education" and, in particular, of depriving persons or groups of access
to educaticin or limiting such persons to a levofinferior standards.The
full test is found in Yearbookon HumartRigltls rg61, page 437.
The Draft Convention specifically rilloi.vedseparate educational systems
for the two sencs and for religious and linguistic groups, provided the
schools are equal (ib.iipp. 437 ff.).
Article5 of this draft specifically recognizes the rights of nationaI
minorities to carryon tlieir own educational activities, including teaching
in their own language, provided they are not prevented from under-
standing the culture and language of the comrnunity as a whole, and
provided also that the standard of education is tiot lo~vcrthan the general
standard prevailing in the country. This is again at the same place,
Page 438.
According to Article 4, national policies on education should involve:
"methods appropriate to the circumstances and to national usage", so
that they will tend: "to promote equality of opportunity and of treat-
ment in thematter of education."
Thiç convention. Mr. President, is applicable only to the States ad-
hering to it and can be denounced. (Ibiri.p. 439.)
hIr.MULLER : OUhave referred to theDeclaration on KaciaI Discrimi-
nation of 1963. IVould you briefly deal with that declaration?
hIr.POSSONY Ea:rlyin 1963 the Commission on Human Rights drafted
the United Nations Declaration on al1 forms of Racial Discrimination.
This draft was toserve as a draftconventio Tn.e Yearbookofthe United
Nation 1s963, page 330, gives the details.
- In the draft preamblc, the words "distinction" and "discrimination"'
are uscd but the differences between the two are blurred. The draft702 SOUTH WEST AFRICA
preamble expresses conccrn about the manifestation of racial discrimi-
nation, which is imposed by certain governments in the form:
"inter alia, of apartheid, segregation and separation, as well as by
the promotion and dissemination of doctrines of racial superiority
and expansion in certain areas".
A preambular paragraph ass,erted that :
"any doctrine of racial differentiation or superiority is scientifically
false, morally condemnable, sociaHy unjust and dangerous; and that
there is no justification for racial discrimination,eithein theory or
in practice".
Furthemore, in another preambular paragraph, al1 forms of racial
discrimination are linked: "ivith governmental policies based on the
prejudice of racial superiority or on racial hatred."
The Declaration affirmed the "necessity of speedily eliminating racial
discrimination throughout the world in al1its forms and manifestations,
and of securing understanding of, and respect for, the dignity of the
human person".
It called for "national and international measures" incIuding teaching,
education and information.
Article2 (1) states that :
"no State, institution or individual shall make any discrimination
whatsoever in matters of human rights and fundamental freedoms
in the treatment of persons, groups of persons or institutions on the
grounds of race, colour or ethnic origin".
But Article z (3)statesthis:
"Special concrete measures shall be taken in appropriate circum-
stances in order to secure adequate development or protection of
individuals belonging to certain racial groups, wjth the object of
ensuring the full enjoyment by such individuals of human rights and
fundamental freedom. "
It is added to this: "These measures shall, in no circumstances, have as
a consequence the maintenance of unequal or separate rights for different
racial groups." This text is from the same source, page 345.
Article5 calls for the abolition of what they cal1policiesof apartheid.
A definition mighthave been given tu clarify when special concrete
rneasures, taken to secure adequate development or protection of certain
groups'to ensure their full enjoyment of human rights and fundamental
freedom, do or do not faIl under the retbriqnceof objectional policies. This
might have been useful, particularly because the draft International
Convention on Racialnon-Discrimination, mhich was issued subsequently,
lumped together discrimination with "the evil racial doctrine and
practices of Nazism in the past" and italso linked apartheid separation
or segregation with racial discrimination. This is laid down in United
Nations Economic and Social Council E/CN.4/873 and EjCN.4jSub.
21241 of II February 1gG4 ,age zo, aswell as the annex to the same issue
of the Economic and Social Council.
The draft convention dcfines discrimination as: "any distinction, er-
clusion, restriction or preference" having the effect of "nullifying or
irnpairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of
human rights and fundamental freedom." It states, specificallin Article
I (2) that : WITNESSES AND EXPERTS
703
"measureç giving preference to certain racial groups for the sole
purpose of securing adequate development .. .shall notbe deemed
racial. discrimination",
provided they do not lead to the "maintenance of unequal or separate
rights for different racial groups".
The indiscriminate use of the terms racial dixrimination,segregation,
separation, apartheid, Nazism and the linkage of al1 these to racial
superiority doctrines and doctrines of expansionism and racial hatred has
no rationci1basis and leaves the whole subject in utter confusion.
The declaration has not resulted in a covenant.
Mr. MULLERH : ave there, to your knowledge, been any recent devel-
opments i~nder United Nations auspices relative to multi-ethnic so-
cieties?
Mr. POSSONYM : r. President, apart from the fact that drafting work is
continuing on the declarations and convenants covering numerous aspects
ofthe hurnan rights problem, there has taken place, between 8 and zr
June 1965, a seminar organized by the United Nations, in CO-operation
with Yugodavia, at Ljubljana, Yugoslavia. This seminar dealt with the
multi-national society.
Mr. MULLER : an you tellthe Court who participated in this serninar?
Mr. POSSONYT : he seminar was described by the representative of the
Secretary-General as the "first human rights serninar ever to be organized
on a gIoba.1basis". However, the Secretary-General, after consulting the
President of the Council and the Governrnent of Yugoslavia, extended
invitations to27 governments, not including the Union of South Africa.
The following countrics participated: A~gentina, Austria, Canada,
Czechoslovakia, Ghana, India, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Madagas-
car, Malaysia, Mali, Norway, the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, the
United States of America, Venezuela and Yugoslavia.
Mr. MULLERW : hat, inparticular, was this serninar concerned with?
Mr. Posso~u: The representative of the Secretary-General, who is the
Director of the Division of Human Rights, delivered an opening address,
in which he said as follows:
"Tliere are many minorities which want nothing better than
assimilation and integration. There are, however, other minorities
which want neither of these things but onIy to continue in the enjoy-
ment, asminorities,of their traditional, culturasocial, poIitica1 and
economic rights and characteristics. It is with these latter minorities
that we will be more particularly concernecl ai the seminar."
If 1 may, at this point, give the source: United Nations publication,
ST/TAO/HR/z3, entitled Seminav on the dftrlti-l\isS lioiey, and 1
was just quoting from page 40.
hlr. MULLER : hat was the agenda of the sexninar?
Mr. POSSONY T:heagenda 1 will read from the text on page 6:
"1. Measures ~vhich should be taken to ençure the realization of
human rights and fundamentai freedoms to al1 without dis-
crimination.
2. Measures which should be taken to ensure the realization by
ethnic, religious, linguistic or national groups, of the special
rights necessary to enable them to preserve their traditions,
characteristics, or national consciousness."7O4 SOUTH WEST AFRlCA
Mr. iI1u~r.e~:Was any consensus reached at the seminarrelative to the
inatters on the agenda?
hlr. Possox~: The main conclusion, Mr. Psesident, is worded as
follows, and it appears in paragraph IMa, page 35.
"There was general agreement that al1 Governments should
promote and protect the rights of ethnic, religious, linguistic or
national groups, not only through the adoption of constitutional
and legisiative provisions, but also through the promotion of a11
forrns of activities consistent with the political, economic and social
conditions of the State or country concerned."
The seconcl conclusion, which 1 will skip, essentially dcals with inter-
national agreements, exchanges, and contacts.
Then it says, in paragraph 145:
"Tlie seminar expressed the voeu that the Secretary-General
should organize other seminars, on a regional or global baçis, to
consider aspects ofthe problem of the multi-national society."
And p-ragr- - 146:
"There was general consensus that the United Nations, aswell as
Government and institutions, should undertake measures and
stimulate more intensive research on ethnic, religious, linguistic, and
national problerns."
Bfr.MULLER :an YOU mention particular matters which were under
discussions at the seminar?
Mr.Possox~: l'es, 1can do this briefly under the following headings:
(1) thenature of the minority problem; (2)language rights; (3)individual
group rights; (4) the rights of ethnic groups; (5)assimilation; (6) types
of solutions ;(7)major findings of operational significance.
3fr.&IUI,LER First of all, with regard to the problem of minorities,
what vicw was espressed?
hlr. POSSOKY : ome speakers, hlr. President, stated that minority
problems are not merely an issue of liberty, in theabstract, but ofuality
of opportunity; the problem is complicated by differences in cultural
levels and liviiig standards-this appears in paragraphs 30 and 53.
One participant commented that lack of cadres results in a strong
tendency to centralization, and he recomrnended local self-government
to encourage decentralization-this appears in paragraph 134.
Some participants noted that ".. . the unity and the cultural develop-
ment of the country would be enhanced, rather than irnpaired, if al1
groups were assured their full rights for developmentV-this appears at
paragraph 56.
Mr. MULLERY : ou said that certain views were also expressed with
regard to language systems; kindly deal ivith thatshortly.
Nr. POSSONY T:here was general agreement that if a group wished to
maintain its ethniccharacteristics, it must be able to use its own language.
In amplification of this point, the Iollowing waç stated in paragraph 47:
"Discrimination by a State against a group which wished to use
its own lnnguage in everyday life, was considered to be reprehen-
sible. Noting the importance of the use of its language to the con-
tinued existence of a group, one participant pointed out that
deliberate destruction of a group language was tantamount to
'cultural geriocide'." WITSEÇÇES AND EXPERTS
In further amplification, it was stated that-
". ..it \vould be meaningless to safegiiard the right of the present
generation to speak its own lanpage, if pi.ovisions were not made
to ensure tliat future generations would learn that language from
instruction given in autonomous schools".
This appears in paragraph 52.
There was agreement that ". . . there were different wajrsin which to
achieve the ends desired by the community". (Ibid., para. 53.)
hlr. h1ui.r.~~:What views were expressed with regard to the inter-
relationship between the groups and the individuid?
Mr. POSSONY : r. President, the point was macle repentedly that
group rights and individual rights do not necessarily coincide, and that
both types of rights must be yrotected-in fact, there was understanding
that human rights and group rights are interrelated antl cannot be con-
sidered in isolation from one another. Some speakers thought that-
". . . an assurance of equality and the right to i~ltegrate, however
absolute, could never safeguard the survival of a minority group as
a distinct entity.A group often had certain interestç which were by
no means identical with the individual interests of its members."
This appears in paragraph 36.
According to paragraph 21, it was widely agrced-
". . . that the seniinar wouId have to examine the modes of re-
conciling the interests of a given group or individual with those of
the communitp as a whole, and the relative advantages of,on the
one Iland, assimilation and integration, and on the other, the right
of minorities to live a subçtantially autono~nous life."
Rlr.MULLER : hat views were expressecl with regard to the rights of
ethnic groiips, as such?
Mr. I'OSSONY T:he problem of deculturation was discussed, and it was
deplored that many inhabitants of developing countries-
". . .had been caught in the cross-current of an officiallydiscouraged
traditional way of life or an alien culture, to which they couldver
fully adjust. Today, therefore,every effort had to be made to awaken
the masses to the needs ofrespect for their national or continental
personality, urhile simultaneouslp slriving for the attainment of
modern objectives, and the elimination of anachronisms or stulti-
fying siiperstition. Some of the participants added that thc mainte-
nance of indigenous traditions was greatly assisted in their countries
by a policy ofstrcngthening tribal institutions, sucas the authorlty
of local chiefs or by an enlightened codification of customary lalv."
This, Mr. I>resideiit, was laid down in paragraph III.
According to paragraph 107, it was generally agrced that-
". ..tlie right of autonomouç action ta ensure the preservation and
continuity of a group's traditions and characteristics... provided
the surest means of protecting its collective identity . . ."
The disciissrints recognized the right of an ethnic reljgious, linguistic or
cultural group to transmit its heritage to its children-this is in para-
grapli 92.
Now, the size of the group was not conçidered to have a bearing on its
rights: in connection with the discussion on language, the view was
espressed :70~ SOUTH WEST AFRICA
". .. that it would not be appropriate to impose a numerical criterion
on the sizeof a group ... the group might be small in number, but
might enjoy a rich cultural heritage".
This is in paragraph 48.
Mr. MULLER D:id the discussions elucidate how the solution to thcse
difficult problems is to be achieved?
hlr.Posso~y: It was agreed first, that the State is obliged to take
"... protective action to safeguard the rights of minority groupings"-
this is in paragraph 30. It was also agreed that the minority group
"... should receive special protection designed to preserve its own
traditional characteristics"-this is in paragraph 36. It was agreed
second, that while ". .. it was the duty of every country to provide
solutions for the problems of minorities.. . there were different ways in
which to achieve the ends desired by the community"-this, &Ir.Presi-
dent, is in paragraph 53. Xow, paragraph 25 has this wording:
"Each group ... had itsown distinguishing characteristics, some-
times national, linguistic or religious, at other timeç racial or even
economic."
Quoting from paragraph 94,participants noted:
". . . that the methods and techniques used to provide educational
facilities for ethnic, religious, linguiandcnational groups, varied
greatlyfrom country to country, and included educational networks
of autonomous educational institutions".
I quote now from paragraph 25:
"Waving regard to such diversity, no single formula could be
devised with a view to seekinga uniforrn set of applicable principles
or measureç."
Mr. MULLER W:ere any views expressed with regard to integration
and assimilation of groups?
Mr. Posso~u: Integration was not praised aç apanacea which would
be applicable everywhere, and 1 quote from paragraph 33:
"It was the duty of the majority to recognize that,by encouraging
a rninority to preserveifit so wished, itown cultural heritage, the
State would, in thefinal anaiysis,be theprincipal beneficiary.Iiite-
gration, therefore, should never mean the suffocation of the minority
concerned."
Special attentionwas dra~vnto the fact that-
". ..a policy of assimilation could lead to later difficulties anin
any event, had in several instances shown that the requirements of
a group, even though scattered, had proved more compelling than
a poiicy ofassimilation" (para. 95).
A summary conclusion-appearing in the middle of the text, as a
summary to a sub-seminar-was phrased as follows, in paragraph 120:
"Most participants believed that incentives should be offered by
the State, even though there was no obligation in this respect, for
the autonomous development of group characteristics and tradi-
tions.''
Paragraph 107 says:
"Any attempt to impose a uniform cultural pattern led to mono-
tony and blandness, while encouragement of variety helped the WITNESSES AND ESI'ERTS 707
assurance of harmonious coexistence between a country's varying
ethnic, religious, linguistic, and national group.. ."
Some speakers recalled-
". .. how past attempts to attribute to one single group a monopoly
of virlue, by reaçon of itsalleged racial or historic superiorithad
revealed the dangers inherent ina misdirected, centrally inspired,
unity of purpose".
Alr.MULLER: XOIV,my final question reIati1.e to the seminar, were
there any tnajor findings of operational significance?
Mr. POÇSONY:One major operationai conclusion was tliat rnuch more
research is needed on ethnic, religious, linguistic, international problems
-this is laid down and specificallp stressed in paragraphs58and 87,and
re-occurs in the general conclusions.
Another finding, which emerged, is best stated in 'the words of the
report itself, in paragraph39 and 40:
"As regards international measures, some participants suggested
the possibility of creating a United Nations High Commissioner, or
Ombudsman, on Human Rights. Others were more iiiclined to favour
the establishment of a small tribunal to consider cornplaints in
human rights matters. It was pointcd out, however, that in either
cases there remained a number of serious obstacles: first, many
States would consider any act of investigation or any declaration
regarding them made by a comrnissioner or tribunal to be an in-
trusiori into their domestic affairs, and an attcmpted infringement of
their sovereignty; secondly, some States, p;irticularly among those
which had only recently, or relatively recently, attained indepen-
dence tended to suspect the objectivity of such international organs;
and thirdly, some of the biggest powcrs were often tempted by the
propaganda possibititiesof international bodies, and might in-
troduce a political flavour intothe judicial or quasi-judicial yrocesç."
And then IIeave out a few words and come to this:
"Foi. the time, therefore, several speakers urged more easily
attainable objectives, in particularthe early adoption of the Draft
International Covenants on Human Rights and a draft Convention
on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination and Religious In-
tolerance, the ratification of whichby a government would involve
a binding comrnitment to cary the provisions into effect."
This, Mr. President, was in paragraph 40.
Blr. &IULI.ER N:ow, Professor Possony, 1come back to a question which
1 intended to put toyou here, but it was antieipated and put earlier in
the examination, and that is that the Applicants contend that there is in
existence an international norm of non-discrimination or non-separation
which prohibits by governmental policies or actions the alIotment of
status, rights, duties,rivileges or burdens on the basisofmembership in
a group, class or race, but rather on the basis of individual merit, capacity
or potential. Now 1will ask you the question again. Can you, frorn pour
esperience and studies which you have made, state whether as usage
and practice in the world there is, or has been, otiservance of suca rule
or norm?
Mr. POSSONY N:r. Prcsident, from what I have indicated to the Court
with relation to the practice al1 over the world, there is no general70~ SOUTH WEST AFRICA
observance of such a rule or norm. And furthermore, from what 1 have
said relative toattempts at formulation of a concel~tof effective practice,
those attempts have progreçsed no further than expressions of general
abçtract ideas.
Jlr. MULLER:h3y final question. Professor Possony is: With your
experience of group &fferences in the world, would it bc practicable and
just to apply such a norm under al1circumstances and at al1times?
>,IPOSSONY AIr.President,my answer to this question is no. hiankind
ïvithal1its diversities has never accepted a single writ. To impoasingle
formula would be ideologica1 imperialism.
Given the ideals of humanity-the hopes of advance as well as the
promises of hurnan rights-but given also a manifold rcality,the best
principle, it seems to me, iç to tnilor methods or responseç to specific
challenges.
An optimal solution can be optimal only in terrnsof nconcrete situa-
tion.
A solution can be viable only if it respects the history of an arand
is implemented in the same rhythm as the society living in that area is
evolving.
As Hegel taught, reality isalways reasonable in itown way. Reality
can be changed, and of course it should be improved. But continuity and
respect for the historical tradition remain as the unsvoidable frarnework
of human betterment.
hlr.MULLER: Thank you, Professor. That is rny last question, &Ir.
President. Tho publicationsof thINTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICBmay be
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Procès-verbaux des audiences publiques tenues du 15 mars au 14 juillet, du 20 septembre au 15 novembre, le 29 novembre 1965, le 21 mars et le 18 juillet 1966, sous la présidence de sir Percy Spender, président (Annexes aux procès-verbaux - suite)