ANNEX44
ICTY, Gotovina et al., IT-060-90, Excerpts from the
testimony of Witness John Geoffrey William Hill, 27 &
28 May 2008, Transcripts, pp. 3736-3741,3746-3752,
3756-3757,3766-3768,3771-3772,3776,3778-3779,3786
The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY)
Case Gotovina et al., IT -060-90
Trans cri pts of witness testimonies
Witness: John Goeffrey William Hill
(The commander of the United Nations Military Police in Sector South from June until
December 1995)
Transcript page 3736
27 May 2008
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
Mr. Geoff Hill was the commander of the United Nations MilitaryPolice in
Sector South from June until Decernber 1995. Prior to Operation Storm, he
liaised with the RSK minister of the interior and chief of police in Knin,
and worked to maintain the security of UN personnel throughout Sector South,
and to prevent hijacks and theft the UN equipment.
He was present in Knin during the artillery attacks on 4 and 5August 1995,
and observed the shelling of Knin from the UNHCR compound. After Operation
Storm, he managed to leave the UN HQ compound during the HV blockade and gain
access to many areas in Sector South where he observed shelling damage and
also witnessed HV soldiers, Special Police, and civilian police engaged in
looting or acts of destruction. He also discovered several dead bodies and
evidence of killings on the road used by the Serbs to flee the Krajina.
Mr. Hill also gained the trust of a HV military police commander named Ivan
Juric, who indicated that he was in charge of all military
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Transcript Page 3737
police units in the territory of the former RSK, including theirantiterrorist
unit, and who provided Mr. Hill with information regardingthe
conduct of Operation Storm and the fact that all Serbs in the territory of
the former RSK were considered terrorists.
[ ... ]
Q. Let's turn now to the shelling that happened on 4 August. If you could
========pJ:ease=ext::rl--a~n=:t;o=t?he=eoucr;ct=wh-a't--you=pecr;csonaib-lcoyc=================i=======d
Transcript Page 3738
observed or beard of the shelling on that day.
A. On that morning at 0500 exactly, an artillery barrage started of Knin,
in what I believe was from the south and the east. It was hundreds and
hundreds and hundreds of artillery rounds. I irnrnediately moved with the
platoon I had on the grass to the back of the MP building, taking two MPs out
of building and sending them up to their bunkers. We stayed in the
bunker. It was for the escort platoon. There was two major salvos. I
believe one was about 30 minutes, long followed by a pause which I had
believed would be for them to reload to restock, and then another 30
minutes.
It was hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of roads. I was in thebunker with
the platoon this way tome. The doors were openapproximately this wide, and
I could see out over the town and there was orange glows and original bursts
from the air-bursts of the artillery.
That went on for approximately 90 minutes, and there was enough of a lullthat
I could then move up to the top of the camp where my MP platoon was to my
bunker. My bunker is on the edge of the camp with the ARSK camp, and I'm
looking directly into Knin.
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The shelling continued. It was getting to the point where we could listen to
how close the round was corning in and observe. I took sorne photos of the
town being shelled. At that point -- or during that tirne, a rnortar round
irnpacted the building directly over my head on the corner. A subsequent UNMO
CBA or CDA was done to say that is was an 82-rnillirnetre rnortar from the
ARSK. And a rifle propelled grenade passed the entrance the bunker and
detonated approxirnately six feet off the
ground back to my left, and blew rnyself and Corporal I don't recall his
narne - down the stairs. We lost helrnet, and we lost our weapons. And at that
point, the shelling abated to the·point where it was just harassrnent, rather
than a massive salvo of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of rounds.
[ ... ]
Transcript Page 3740
[ ... ]
Q. Again, Mr. Hill, I think on the sarne page, and I think alsoduring the
surnrnary you just gave us, you used the terrn "harassrnent fire"which you
indicated was the kind of shelling that was occurring after theinitial
salvos.
Can you please explain to the Court what you mean by harassrnentfire?
A. It's a terrn, I believe, first used by the Arnericans in WorldWar II, and
then later in Vietnam
Transcript Page 3741
the enerny is aware they are being attacked. It lirnits rnovernent, itlirnits
resupply, and it basically is harassing the enerny rather than an all out
offensive, like very earlier in the morning where there are hundreds and
hundreds of rounds.
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So, in the morning, there was that initial attack, hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds. It abated to this through the day; and then later in the evens
prior to 2300, it picked up again to be the second highestlevel of shelling
for the day in Knin.
[ ... ]
Transcript page 3746
[ ... ]
Q. And moving now to the time that you up at about
2300 hours, can you tell the Court what you were doing at about 2300 hours?
A. I was summonsed to the front gate of the camp where I met the Chief of
Staff, Colonel Leslie, at the time. General Forand, our commander, had
decided that he would take in the Serb·refugees. They hadbeen accumulating
at the gate throughout the day, seeking refuge from the shelling. At that
point, there was in excess of 300. General Forand directed they would come
in. The task was given tome. Colonel Leslieleft. I used my escort
and my MP platoon, and we brought all the refugees in, searched them, lodged
them in, I believe, one of the bars on base, as well as an auditorium and a
gym; then began the process of· searching, taking them to meals, putting a
wire compound around which later eventually rose to over 850 and half our
camp.
Q. Can you tell the Court, starting at 2300 hours, how long it took you to
process everyone in on that night?
A. Until approximately 0230 hours.
Transcript Page 3747
Q. Mr. Hill, can you give the Court an idea of what the makeup of what this
group of refugees was?
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A. Women, children, old men, old ladies. There were sorne military-aged
individuals in it. Basically, people that have come from the town. They had
sorne bags, sorne personal belongs as they came in.
[ ... ]
Q. Thank you. Now If we can move to the following day, the 5th ofAugust,
and if you could tell the Court, again, what you personally observed or heard
of the shelling on that day?
extremely large volumes, hundreds and hundreds of round, slightly less than
the bombardment on the morning of the 4th, throughout the town of Knin.
[ ... ]
Transcript Page 3748
[ ... ]
THE WITNESS: This was approximately 0930 hours. While talking to my
commander, General Forand, an artillery round hit the wire at the corner of
our camp. General Forand instructed me to go and check what had occurred. I
left the camp with a number of soldiers. I got to the T-intersection, just
outside the camp. I had also brought an OT-64 with me, and I saw six
individuals who had been killed. Four were wounded, a mixture of civilian
and military - I do not recall the exact mix - laying on the ground on that
road from the intersection, a little up past the camp.
I went back into the camp. I requested an engineer, a Canadian engineer, to
go and clear the bodies of any potential booby traps. Then at that point, I
was tasked by General Forand to set up a patrol within the camp, because the
Jordanian troops were not going into their fightingpositions. They were
staying in their bunkers. My soldiers were to go around and get them in
their firing positions.
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Transcript Page 3749
I later learned that the bodies were all bagged by the individuals that went
out with me. All the weapons, grenade, rockets were taken offer the soldiers
who were ARSK, and lodged in my cell area. And that's the last dealing I had
with that.
[ ... ]
Q. Mr. Hill, you indicated that the bodies at the intersection were bagged
--------by-some-o-f-t:he-:r:>ee:r:>±e-t:ha-t-yeu-haè-gone-ou-t-w-i-t-h-.-Do-you-lmow-wha-t-happeneè
to those bodies later on?
A. They were bagged in the black body-bags that we had and put by
Transcript Page 3750
the side of the road, across from the camp on a road leading upwards out of
Knin. I was told that HV, when they were martialing to go into Knin for the
last night, fired AKs into the bodies after opening the bags, and that
urinated and defecated on the bodies.
At a later date, the bodies were there for quite sorne time. Irecall seeing
them with the bags opened, and one body in particular had been -- had feces
on the body and the bodies shot, even though the bodiesdied or the cause of
death was the artillery round.
Q. Thank you. At sorne point later in the day, in your statement, you
indicate that the HV entered the town -- or, actually, that they had come to
the UN compound.
Can you describe for the Court how they came to the compound?
A. This is the first time that they came?
Q. Yes. When was the first time you saw them?
A. I t was a round noon that they came in, from around to the right of camp, where the Se rb or
ARSK barracks were. They arrived with three tanks, T-54, 55 -- I'm sorry,
six tanks, T-54, 55, and three APCs, T-BOs, with troops on foot. We talked
16
to them. General Leslie -- they wanted to come into the camp and take the
refugees, and I'm sarry, Colonel Leslie, at the time, was negotiating. He
eventually negotiated that the Croats would stay out of the camp.
The Croats told us that "We must stay in the camp." I was there discussing
with the soldiers. Two of them were Canadians. One was ontop of a tank. I
talked to him and asked him how the offensive had gone. They said they took
30 hours to take Drnis, and then it only took five
Transcript Page 3751
I asked what they were going to do. He said they were going tokill all the
Serb. The ether individual, who was from, I believe, Montreal or Ottawa, was
on the left, was infanteer. And I had asked him, because he speke good
English, what he was doing there, and he said he had come back to fight
against the Serbs and that he had been waiting for this since 1945. He was
approximately 22 years old.
[ ... ]
Q. And referring to your second statement this time, that would beP292, I
believe, at page 0057-7655. That is, again, beginning at line 20, where you
describe trying to get into the town of Knin. Can you tell the Court about
that?
A. Around supper time, I took two OT-64 and two M-113 APCs to go into town,
to try to get back any refugees that we could find. We wentdown the road to
the T-intersection, where that building was I showedwith the damage; turned
right and got almost down to the gas station. There was one T-54 tank in front
of us. They started to move the tank, but then a commander came, either a
captain or a major HV. And he got extremely agitated, and I said we were
going into town. We were UN, we were trying to find refugees. He absolutely
refused, he said it was
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Transcript Page 3752
forbidden, he put tank across the road, he was quite angry, and heordered us
back to camp.
When you looked behind, and turned around from the gas stationand looked up
the road, beside our camp, the entire road to the top of the hill was lined,
front to back, of tanks and APCs of HV with infantry on top. And it was
their assembly area before their final assault onKnin.
After talking to this major, he had talked about taking our pistols, and he
had later put a tank in front of the gate to come and take our pistols and
then later removed. And we were told that we could not go into Knin that
night.
Transcript page 3756
28 May 2008
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
Q. Now going back to your trip through Knin with the SIS officer, can you
describe for the Court what you witnessed of the behaviour of the soldiers in
Knin?
A. They were shooting into the air, they were looting across the town. We
spent approximately two hours driving around the town. There was various
check-points run by the HV, at that point not military police, which we
freely got through with the identification
The soldier were shooting in the air. At one point, we stopped at a
bar. They kicked out front. They had eut a pig in half, were eating the
pig, offered us sorne whiskey. Virtually, every area of town you went to, the
soldiers were coming out the of the homes with appliances, TVs, radios,
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clothes, and putting them into vehicles, that they were stealing from the
town of Knin.
There was buildings that were burning, there were buildings that were either
damaged or destroyed from artillery fire.
[ ... ]
Transcript page 3757
[ ... ]
THE WITNESS: It wasn t on one area. On any
town you went to, behind the hospital, behind the parliament, below the
castle, you would see cars being stolen and soldiers coming out of houses or
apartments with material they were loading the cars with. Any part of town
you went to, you saw this.
JUDGE ORIE: As you describe it, it sounds as a massive exercise.
THE WITNESS: Perhaps, on one area, when we went to a lady's house where he
put the sign on, perhaps I only saw three in that area of three or four
street, three soldiers. It is more pronounced downtown. There is a bigger
concentration of soldiers, but also they were drinking and shooting, as well
as looting.
When you got outside of downtown, it was purely the looting.
They weren't sitting around and drinking.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And no doubt as to these being HV soldiers.
THE WITNESS: Oh, no doubt at all.
JUDGE ORIE: Fully uniformed.
THE WITNESS: Absolutely. With weapons.
[ ... ]
Transcript page 3766
[ ... ]
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Q. And, here, Mr. Hill, you disèuss an incident with a UnitedNations
Serbian interpreter which occurred in downtown Knin on that day, and I would
like you to explain to the Court what happened there.
A. At approximately 19:30, I was advised there was an issue with the UN
worker downtown. I took several of my police with me. I went down to the
police station, and found a lieutenant HV, who came with me. At a certain
point of town, in an open courtyard in between two apartment buildings, there
was approximately 30 military individuals standing around.
At that point, they were agitated because of our weapons. I hadto give up my
long arm and my pistol to my second in command, and then I went to talk to
who I believe was in charge, who I thought was the commander of 4
Brigade. There was an UN pick-up truck with the right front tire shot out,
and it was flat. The back of the truck was filled with personal belongings,
and there was an UN employee, a Serbian interpreter, standing there.
When I approached the individual, there was an HV civilian police there, Jan,
who spoke very good English, and he acted as our interpreter.
I asked about the situation. I asked about the situation. The commander
showed me a piece of paper that was in, I believe, Croatian, that showed
Transcript Page 3767
that this individual had served in the ARSK army for, I believe, nine or ten
months.
Through the interpreter, he said he was a Chetnik and they were going to kill
him. AllI understood from the commander was the word"Chetnik," and r
understood what it meant. Apparently, this individual left our camp, gone to
his own accommodation,. and was retrieving personal items. We negotiated back
and forth that he could not shoot theindividual, it was not his
responsibility, the individual belonged to me.
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And, eventually, he agreed that the individual would go with me; however, he
said that he could not guarantee the safety of the individual if his soldiers
saw him, or my safety which was the first time they said that. He said that
any helicopters leaving our camp with Serbs would be shot down, and any Serb
men of military age, 19 to 60, who leave our camp would be shot.
At this point, we took the individual, we surrounded him, moved him back to
our two vehicles, and drove him back to our camp.
Q. And at this point in your statement, Mr. Hill, you discuss a trip that
you took through the town of Kistanje, andlwouldliketodescribefor the Court what
you witnessed in that town?
A. That was the worse town I had seen for damage. There was no inhabitants
at all. I believe there was an HV company there on the
Transcript Page 3768
factory side. The majority of the homes destroyed by either artillery or
fire. They had artillery impacts on the outside of the town for thefirst
time, where we saw how they had walked the artillery into the town.
There was a massive war memorial, beautiful. It was huge madeof it appeared
to be granite, that had been virtually destroyed, not byartillery but it
appeared as if by sledge hammers. In Canada, we would call it - I can't
remember - vandalism, but it was destroyed, completelydestroy. It was a
massive monument. There was an extremely strong smell of dead bodies, but
yet we found none. There was that single company of HV soldiers who were
resting by the factory area.
[ ... ]
Transcript page 3771
Q. Mr. Hill, here, you describe what you saw in the town of Gracac
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Transcript page 3772
and I would like to you tell the Court, please, what you witnessed there.
A. We saw artillery impacts in the fields leading up to the town. There was
no MP, so there was HV. I remember one check-point with HV soldiers by the
impacts. The town was fairly well destroyed. Sorne houses were still
burning. There was looting, and there were still sorne soldiers there. As it
says in my statement, they were friendly. Again, large very strong smell of
bodies. We drove with our windows so we could identi
that. Then we continued to the Czech battalion.
Q. Can you tell the Court who was doing the looting?
A. HV soldiers.
Q. And did you see any civilians in this town at that time?
A. No. The town was empty.
[ ... ]
Transcript page 3776
Q. Mr. Hill, is that an example of what you saw on that road?
A. Yes. We would see a group of three or four homes, no soldiers, no
civilians around, and the homes would be burning. So I simply took a
picture as an example.
Another point along the route, once we got to Otric for the first time, we
saw all of the fields, all of the animals, cows, pigs, sheep, whatever, had
been killed, shot.
[ ... ]
Transcript page 3778
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Q. Mr. Hill, here, you note that on driving back towards Otric, you saw an
orange VW, which I take to mean Volkswagen, flat bed, with bodies
inside. I'd like you to explain these vehicles to the Court and what you
know about them.
A. As we drove north and we found the route, when we passed Otric, we
noticed six bodies, four soldiers and two civilians, in a field by a
tractor. I wanted to take photos but I didn't, because we had found the
route. By the time we had gone up and back gown down, the bodies were gone
and we had passed a Volkswagen flat bed, orange, with the bodies on the back.
What we later discovered is this is how the HV were getting ridof the
bodies. These individuals, I believe, had grey uniforms, and it was the
orange, flat bed VWs that were removing the bodies whenever they
Transcript Page 3779
were found.
Q. And had you seen these orange VWs elsewhere in this sector?
A. After this point in time, yes.
[ ... ]
Transcript page 3785
Q. And during this discussion, did you ask Mr. Juric the units over which
he had cornmand?
A. Yes. I had asked what the responsibility of the military police were,
specifically on the day that the Croats soldiers had come to thecamp. In
front of the camp, I saw an individual with a shaved head and agrey uniform,
almost like an overall uniform with a black belt. But he was carrying an MP-
5, which is a sub-machine gun. It was suppressed with a laser sight. He had
an old man at his feet, almost like a dog.
Transcript Page 3786
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I had asked Ivan what he was, and he said he was counter-terrorist unit. And
I asked if that was part of the military police, and he said, yes, that they
had military police, the HV. But as part of the military police, they had a
counter-terrorism unit. I asked Ivan, I said, "Well, who are
terrorists?" And he said, "Serbs."
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Written testimony of Witness John Geoffrey William Hill *