CR 2006/24
International Court Cour internationale
of Justice de Justice
THHEAGUE LAAYE
YEAR 2006
Public sitting
held on Thursday 23 March 2006, at 10 a.m., at the Peace Palace,
President Higgins presiding,
in the case concerning the Application of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment
of the Crime of Genocide (Bosnia and Herzegovina v. Serbia and Montenegro)
________________
VERBATIM RECORD
________________
ANNÉE 2006
Audience publique
tenue le jeudi 23 mars 2006, à 10 heures, au Palais de la Paix,
sous la présidence de Mme Higgins, président,
en l’affaire relative à l’Application de la convention pour la prévention et la répression du
crime de génocide (Bosnie-Herzégovine c. Serbie-et-Monténégro)
____________________
COMPTE RENDU
____________________ - 2 -
Present: Presieigtgins
Vice-Prsi-Kntasawneh
Ranjevaudges
Shi
Koroma
Parra-Aranguren
Owada
Simma
Tomka
Abraham
Keith
Sepúlveda
Bennouna
Skotnikov
Judges ad hoc Mahiou
Kre ća
Couevrisrar
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯ - 3 -
Présents : Mme Higgins,président
Al-K.vsce-prh,ident
RaMjev.
Shi
Koroma
Parra-Aranguren
Owada
Simma
Tomka
Abraham
Keith
Sepúlveda
Bennouna
Sjoteiskov,
MaMhou.,
Kre ća, juges ad hoc
Cgoefferr,
⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯⎯ - 4 -
The Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina is represented by:
Mr. Sakib Softić,
as Agent;
Mr. Phon van den Biesen, Attorney at Law, Amsterdam,
as Deputy Agent;
Mr.Alain Pellet, Professor at the University of ParisX-Nanterre, Member and former Chairman of
the International Law Commission of the United Nations,
Mr. Thomas M. Franck, Professor of Law Emeritus, New York University School of Law,
Ms Brigitte Stern, Professor at the University of Paris I,
Mr. Luigi Condorelli, Professor at the Facultyof Law of the University of Florence,
Ms Magda Karagiannakis, B.Ec, LL.B, LL.M.,Barrister at Law, Melbourne, Australia,
Ms Joanna Korner, Q.C.,Barrister at Law, London,
Ms Laura Dauban, LL.B (Hons),
as Counsel and Advocates;
Mr. Morten Torkildsen, BSc, MSc, Tork ildsen Granskin og Rådgivning, Norway,
as Expert Counsel and Advocate;
H.E. Mr. Fuad Šabeta, Ambassadorof Bosnia and Herzegovina to the Kingdom of the Netherlands,
Mr. Wim Muller, LL.M, M.A.,
Mr. Mauro Barelli, LL.M (University of Bristol),
Mr. Ermin Sarajlija, LL.M,
Mr. Amir Bajrić, LL.M,
Ms Amra Mehmedić, LL.M,
Mr. Antoine Ollivier, Temporary Lecturer and Research Assistant, University of Paris X-Nanterre, - 5 -
Le Gouvernement de la Bosnie-Herzégovine est représenté par :
M. Sakib Softić,
coagment;
M. Phon van den Biesen, avocat, Amsterdam,
comme agent adjoint;
M. Alain Pellet, professeur à l’Université de ParisX-Nanterre, membre et ancien président de la
Commission du droit international des Nations Unies,
M. Thomas M. Franck, professeur émérite à lafaculté de droit de l’Université de New York,
Mme Brigitte Stern, professeur à l’Université de Paris I,
M. Luigi Condorelli, professeur à la fact de droit de l’Université de Florence,
Mme Magda Karagiannakis, B.Ec., LL.B., LL.M.,Barrister at Law, Melbourne (Australie),
Mme Joanna Korner, Q.C.,Barrister at Law, Londres,
Mme Laura Dauban, LL.B. (Hons),
comme conseils et avocats;
M. Morten Torkildsen, BSc., MSc., Tork ildsen Granskin og Rådgivning, Norvège,
comme conseil-expert et avocat;
S. Exc. M. Fuad Šabeta, ambassadeur de Bosn ie-Herzégovine auprès duRoyaume des Pays-Bas,
M. Wim Muller, LL.M., M.A.,
M. Mauro Barelli, LL.M. (Université de Bristol),
M. Ermin Sarajlija, LL.M.,
M. Amir Bajrić, LL.M.,
Mme Amra Mehmedić, LL.M.,
M. Antoine Ollivier, attaché temporaire d’ense ignement et de recher che à l’Université de
Paris X-Nanterre, - 6 -
Ms Isabelle Moulier, Research Student in International Law, University of Paris I,
Mr. Paolo Palchetti, Associate Professor at the University of Macerata (Italy),
as Counsel.
The Government of Serbia and Montenegro is represented by:
Mr. Radoslav Stojanović, S.J.D., Head of the Law Council of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of
Serbia and Montenegro, Professor at the Belgrade University School of Law,
as Agent;
Mr. Saša Obradović, First Counsellor of the Embassy of Serbia and Montenegro in the Kingdom of
the Netherlands,
Mr. Vladimir Cvetković, Second Secretary of the Embassy of Serbia and Montenegro in the
Kingdom of the Netherlands,
as Co-Agents;
Mr.Tibor Varady, S.J.D. (Harvard), Professor of Law at the Central European University,
Budapest and Emory University, Atlanta,
Mr. Ian Brownlie, C.B.E., Q.C., F.B.A., Member of the International Law Commission, member of
the English Bar, Distinguished Fellow of the All Souls College, Oxford,
Mr. Xavier de Roux, Master in law, avocat à la cour, Paris,
Ms Nataša Fauveau-Ivanović, avocat à la cour, Paris and member of the Council of the
International Criminal Bar,
Mr. Andreas Zimmermann, LL.M. (Harvard), Professor of Law at the University of Kiel, Director
of the Walther-Schücking Institute,
Mr. Vladimir Djerić, LL.M. (Michigan), Attorney at Law, Mikijelj, Jankovi ć & Bogdanovi ć,
Belgrade, and President of the International Law Association of Serbia and Montenegro,
Mr. Igor Olujić, Attorney at Law, Belgrade,
as Counsel and Advocates;
Ms Sanja Djajić, S.J.D., Associate Professor at the Novi Sad University School of Law,
Ms Ivana Mroz, LL.M. (Indianapolis),
Mr. Svetislav Rabrenović, Expert-associate at the Office of th e Prosecutor for War Crimes of the
Republic of Serbia, - 7 -
Mme Isabelle Moulier, doctorante en droit international à l’Université de Paris I,
M. Paolo Palchetti, professeur associé à l’Université de Macerata (Italie),
cocomnseils.
Le Gouvernement de la Serbie-et-Monténégro est représenté par :
M. Radoslav Stojanović, S.J.D., chef du conseil juridique du ministère des affaires étrangères de la
Serbie-et-Monténégro, professeur à la faculté de droit de l’Université de Belgrade,
coagment;
M. Saša Obradovi ć, premier conseiller à l’ambassade de Serbie-et-Monténégro au Royaume des
Pays-Bas,
M. Vladimir Cvetković, deuxième secrétaire à l’ambassade de Serbie-et-Monténégro au Royaume
des Pays-Bas,
comme coagents;
M. Tibor Varady, S.J.D. (Harvard), professeur de droit à l’Université d’Europe centrale de
Budapest et à l’Université Emory d’Atlanta,
M. Ian Brownlie, C.B.E., Q.C., F.B.A., membre de la Commission du droit international, membre
du barreau d’Angleterre, Distinguished Fellow au All Souls College, Oxford,
M. Xavier de Roux, maîtrise de droit, avocat à la cour, Paris,
Mme Nataša Fauveau-Ivanovi ć, avocat à la cour, Paris, et membre du conseil du barreau pénal
international,
M. Andreas Zimmermann, LL.M. (Harvard), professeur de droit à l’Université de Kiel, directeur de
l’Institut Walther-Schücking,
M. Vladimir Djeri ć, LL.M. (Michigan), avocat, cabinet Mikijelj, Jankovi ć & Bogdanovi ć,
Belgrade, et président de l’association de droit international de la Serbie-et-Monténégro,
M. Igor Olujić, avocat, Belgrade,
comme conseils et avocats;
Mme Sanja Djajić, S.J.D, professeur associé à la faculté de droit de l’Université de Novi Sad,
Mme Ivana Mroz, LL.M. (Indianapolis),
M. Svetislav Rabrenovi ć, expert-associé au bureau du procureur pour les crimes de guerre de la
République de Serbie, - 8 -
Mr. Aleksandar Djurdjić, LL.M., First Secretary at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Serbia and
Montenegro,
Mr. Miloš Jastrebić, Second Secretary at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Serbia and Montenegro,
Mr. Christian J. Tams, LL.M. PhD. (Cambridge), Walther-Schücking Institute, University of Kiel,
Ms Dina Dobrkovic, LL.B.,
as Assistants. - 9 -
M. Aleksandar Djurdji ć, LL.M., premier secrétaire au ministère des affaires étrangères de la
Serbie-et-Monténégro,
M. Miloš Jastrebi ć, deuxième secrétaire au ministère des affaires étrangères de la
Serbie-et-Monténégro,
M. Christian J. Tams, LL.M., PhD. (Cambridge), Institut Walther-Schücking, Université de Kiel,
Mme Dina Dobrkovic, LL.B.,
comme assistants. - 10 -
The PRESIDENT: Please be seated. The sitting is open and today the Court will begin the
hearing of the witnesses and witness-experts called by Serbia and Montenegro. A number of these
witnesses and witness-experts will speak in Serbian. In accordance with Article 70, paragraph 2, of
the Rules of Court, Serbia and Montenegro h as made arrangements for consecutive interpretation
from Serbian into one of the official languages of the Court, English or French. The Registry of the
Court will then provide simultaneous interpretation into the other official language. The statements
and questions of the Agents and counsel of the Par ties in English or French will be interpreted into
Serbian for the benefit of the witness or witnexpert. The same procedure will be followed,
mutatis mutandis, for any instructions I may wish to give to the witness or witness-expert and for
questions that may be put, in English or French, to the witness or witness-expert by the President
on behalf of the Court or by individual judges. Purs uant to Article 70, paragraph 2, of the Rules of
Court, the Registry will verify the interpretation ca rried out by the interpreters appointed by Serbia
and Montenegro.
I now request the interpreters appointed by Se rbia and Montenegro to make the declaration
provided for in Article 70, paragraph 4, of the Rules of Court. Ms Končar-Nikolić.
MKmOeN ČAR-NIKOLIĆ : Je déclare solennellement, en tout honneur et en toute
conscience, que mon interpretration sera fidèle et complète.
The PRESIDENT: Je vous remercie. Ms Kraljević.
KMRs LJEVI Ć: I solemnly declare upon my honour and conscience that my interpretation
will be faithful and complete.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. Ms Nikčević.
NMIs ČEVIĆ: I solemnly declare upon my honour and conscience that my interpretation
will be faithful and complete.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. Mr. Pavlović. - 11 -
PAMV.LOVI Ć : Je déclare solennellement, en tout honneur et en toute conscience, que mon
interpretration sera fidèle et complete.
The PRESIDENT: Je vous remercie.
The first witness to be called by Serbia and Montenegro is Mr. Vladimir Lukić. The witness
may now be brought into court. I would also requ est the interpreter to take her place next to the
witness.
[Witness enters and takes his place at the rostrum]
I call upon Mr. Luki ć to take the solemn declaration for witnesses, as laid down in
Article 64 (a), of the Rules of Court.
LMUr.KI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : I solemnly declare upon my honour and
conscience that I will speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. I would like to remind the witness to pause regularly, in
order to allow for the consecutive interpretation. I now give the floor to Mr. Brownlie to begin his
examination of the witness.
Mr. BROWNLIE: If I could invite the witness to address the Court, make his statement and
I would propose that he speaks directly to the Court and not towards me.
LUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Madam President, honourable judges, thank you
for having given me this opportunity to make my statement. I wish to offer to you my most cordial
greetings.
The PRESIDENT: Please continue.
LUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: My name is Vladimir Lukić. I was born in 1933,
in the village of Tabar Sanski Most municipality. I graduated at the Department of Geology of the
Faculty of Architecture, Civil Engineering and Geol ogy in Zagreb in 1961. I attained my PhD at
the Faculty of Civil Engineering in Sarajevo in 199 0. I am one of the founders of the Faculty of
Architecture and Civil Engineering in Banja Luka and was the Dean of that faculty from 1996 to
2002.
On 1 July 1992, until 19 December 1992, I was the representative of Republika Srpska to
UNPROFOR in Sarajevo and as of 20 January 1993 to 18 August 1994, I was the Prime Minister - 12 -
of Republika Srpska. As an expert, I participated in the peace negotiations in Dayton in 1995. I
am a member of the Commission on the Delimitation of the boundaries of Bosnia and Herzegovina
and neighbouring States.
In my statement today I shall seek to present my perception of the events which took place in
Bosnia and Herzegovina during the war. I will also speak about the work of organs of Republika
Srpska, about our relations with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavi a and with other entities within
the framework of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I hope that my statement today, which I am making as
the former Prime Minister of RepublikaSrpska a nd today a citizen of Republika Srpska and of
Bosnia and Herzegovina, will assist the Court to establish the full truth about the events which
transpired in the past in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Ever since its inception in 1992 Republika Sr pska, then under the name of the Serbian
Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, featured a ll elements of statehood except for international
recognition. Throughout its entire territory it ha d its bodies of government, its national assembly,
its government, its local and/or municipal bodies of government, its judiciary, its health and
educational systems. Also RepublikaSrpska ha d its own banking and financial systems reflected
in the existence of a national bank, its own currency, budget, payment operation service.
Republika Srpska also had its army and police with a complete system of command and logistical
support to those structures. The statehood of Re publikaSrpska was not disputable during the
conducting of numerous international negotiations. Republika Srpska was recognized also through
the Washington Croat and Muslim Agreements and received final recognition under the Dayton
Paris Peace Accords.
The Government of Republika Srpska that I was the Prime Minister of from 20 January 1993
until 18 August 1994 was the highest executive orga n of government. During my premiership, we
held 44sessions. For the duration of the tenure of this government in the area of Bosnia and
Herzegovina there was an ongoing war.
The basic task of the Government was to en able the bodies of Republika Srpska to function
and to ensure the protection of and basic living conditions for its population. The situation was
very difficult due to the international embargo. Republika Srpska was flooded by refugees from
the areas of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as from Croatia. - 13 -
Even in the difficult conditions of war, the G overnment found ways to also deal with other
matters, those of legislation, the work of the ec onomy of the health and educational systems and
special attention was devoted to transport and communications.
We also sought to combat crime which in the existing war setting and given the difficult
economic situation constituted one of the major problems that Republika Srpska was confronted
with. A large number of volunteers arrived in the territory of Republika Srpska among whom a
number of individuals who capitalized on the war for personal gain and the commission of criminal
offences. Within the ambit of our powers we sought to fight against such practices but regrettably
were not entirely successful.
The Government worked pursuant to the Constitution and laws. In its work the Government
was independent. As the Prime Minister, I can say that there was absolutely no interference in the
work of the Government on the part of any individual or organ from Serbia or Yugoslavia.
The autonomy and the recognition of Repub lika Srpska were also reflected in the
negotiations conducted with representatives of the international community. All the negotiations
that were conducted with a view to stopping the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina were conducted by
authorized representatives of Republika Srpska w ith the Government being regularly informed
about their course at sessions of the Assembly of Republika Srpska.
The negotiations for a peaceful settlement of the crisis in Bosnia and Herzegovina that lasted
for a number of years started with a Cutiliero pl an which was rejected owing to the negative
position of AlijaIzetbegovi ć, whereby the chance to avoid war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was
lost.
A second peace plan which led to serious conflic ts in relations with the Federal Republic of
Yugoslavia as well as to numerous adverse consequences for Republika Srpska was the
Vance-Owen peace plan which the Assembly of Republika Srpska rejected.
The consequences of this decision of Republik a Srpska on our relations with the Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia were obvious. After th e rejection of the Vance-Owen plan, political
leaders of Republika Srpska were not allowed to travel in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and
the level of economic co-operation was significantly reduced. - 14 -
Only a year later when the Assembly of Republika Srpska rejected the Contact Group peace
plan as well, sanctions were imposed on the Drin a River, overseen by United Nations observers,
and they made the functioning of Republika Srpska and the life of its citizens exceptionally
difficult. During the sanctions, it was only humanita rian aid that we received from the Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia.
Ms KORNER: I am sorry, there is one procedural matter.
The PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Korner.
Ms KORNER: The witness is reading his prep ared statement at speed. The interpreter
clearly has an English translation and is reading th at at speed. I am totally unable to take proper
notes of what he is saying, some of which may be important. I wonder if it would be possible for
me to have a copy of the statement in English?
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. Does such a copy exist? It does not, but I will ask, as it does
not exist, if the witness can speak more slowly, so that counsel for Bosnia and Herzegovina can
indeed take a note. It may not be necessary fo r the witness to speak more slowly, but for the
interpreter so to do. Thank you.
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : During the sanctions, it was only humanitarian
aid that we received from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
I believe that at this point I should mention that it has never been possible to forbid the
citizens of Serbia to have their relatives living in difficult conditions on the territory of Bosnia and
Herzegovina. The fact is that 90per cent of the aid which came from Serbia came from places
where settlers originating from Bosnia and Herzegovina lived. Even today there is no doubt that in
Serbia there lived more Serbs hailing from Bosnia and Herzegovina than there live Serbs in Bosnia
and Herzegovina itself. For example, in Bosnia and Herzegovina, many renowned scholars, public
figures, as well as eminent representatives of Serbia were born: such as the late Prime Minister of
the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Zoran Djindjić, or the current President of Serbia, Mr. Boris Tadić.
Until the proclamation of the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as well as its
international recognition in April 1992, the Serb pe ople in Bosnia and Her zegovina considered the
Yugoslav People’s Army its army. At that time the Yugoslav Peopl e’s Army was mainly
composed of officers and soldiers of Serb ethnicity from the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This - 15 -
situation was the result of earlier decisions of Presidents Tudjman and Izetbegović for all Croat and
Muslim soldiers and officers to lead the Yugos lav People’s Army and join the newly formed
National Army. After the decision of the Fe deral Republic of Yugos lavia for the Yugoslav
People’s Army to withdraw from the area of Bosnia and Herzegovina the Assembly of the Serbian
Republic adopted on 12May1992, in Banja Luka, the decision to form the army of Republika
Srpska. The army of Republika Srpska was esta blished only after the two other peoples in Bosnia
and Herzegovina had a established their armies. After the withdrawal of the Yugoslav People’s
Army, most of the former Yugoslav People’s Army officers from the area of Bosnia and
Herzegovina joined the newly formed army of Republika Srpska.
The army of Republika Srpska was the army of the Serb people in Bosnia and Herzegovina,
and its work and activities were entirely manage d by organs of Republika Srpska in accordance
with the Constitution of Republika Srpska and other laws regulating this subject-matter. No one
else could have, and to my knowledge, did not ev en attempt to command the army of Republika
Srpska.
As regards the armaments of the army of Republika Srpska, it is known that the Socialist
Federal Republic of Yugoslavia’s strategic plan of defence envisaged that its focus should be in the
area of Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is why there was in Bosnia and Herzegovina a huge quantity
of weaponry and combat hardware, and especially so, after the withdrawal of the Yugoslav
People’s Army from Slovenia, Croatia and Macedonia. Apart from that, there existed in Bosnia
and Herzegovina also considerable production cap acity for military equipment and armament.
Despite the fact that they were leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina in the month of May1992, the
Yugoslav People’s Army had taken with it a signifi cant quantity of armament and equipment. A
good part of those armaments were made in Bosn ia and Herzegovina and constituted the basis for
the armies of all the three peoples.
Throughout the war, the Republika Srpska manufactured weapons in its production facilities,
a part of which, the semi-finished product would be finished in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
and as such, exchanged with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. According to data at my
disposal, the army of Republika Srpska mainly paid for the military materiel which it obtained from
other States. It is a fact that the army of Republika Srpska was supplied from different sources - 16 -
outside Republika Srpska, including but not limited to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. I need
not particularly emphasize that there existed di fferent smuggling channels supplying all the three
warring parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina. When Trnovo, a small town some 20km south of
Sarajevo, was liberated, ammunition manufactured in the Prvi Partizan plant from Užice in Serbia
was found at Muslim positions. At the beginning of the war, Muslims shelled the position of the
army of Republika Srpska, with shells manuf actured in the Pretis factory from Vogoš ća in
Republika Srpska, in fact, manufactured only two days prior to their use.
During my term of office as the Prime Minister of Republika Srpska, I had numerous
contacts with representatives of the Autonomous Republic of Western Bosnia, at the helm of which
was President Fikret Abdi ć. We were not at war with him, but rather had good relations and
co-operated. I met with Mr. Abdić twice: once in Velika Kladuša, at the meeting also attended by
the President of Herceg-Bosna, which is the Croat entity, Mr. Jadranko Prlić.
My second meeting with Mr. Abdi ć was at Vojnić. The topics at these meetings concerned
primarily humanitarian issues, medical treatment of the wounded and of citizens generally, as well
as the promotion of economic relations between the Autonomous Republic of Western Bosnia and
Republika Srpska. We did as much as we coul d to help the population of the Autonomous
Republic of Western Bosnia.
During my term of office, from June1993, we also established relations with the
Government of Herceg-Bosna, the entity of the Croat people in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In
relation to these relations a large number of meetings were held namely, at Livansko Polje, Kupres,
Livlno, Banja Luka and in other places. In the difficult conditions following the severance of our
relations with the Republic of Serbia, Her ceg-Bosna made it possible for us to import a
considerable quantity of fuel which was necessary for agricultural work, as well as for the needs of
the army of Republika Srpska. On its part, the Re publika Srpska made it possible for several tens
of thousands of Croat refugees from Vareš, Kakanj , Central Bosnia and Usora who had left their
homes during the Croat-Muslim conflict in 1993, to be saved from almost certain death. After the
Muslim offensive that had expelled them from the area of Central Bosnia, these refugees were
taken in and accommodated in the area of Republika Srpska and those who so wished were enabled - 17 -
safe passage to the territory of the Republic of Cr oatia. A very important agreement concerned the
exchange of prisoners on the “All for All” principle as well as a ceasefire.
The objective of all negotiations with re presentatives of the autonomous Republic of
Western Bosnia and of Herceg-Bosna, was to stop the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Regrettably, the Muslim side did not respond to this initiative and sought a solution in continuing
the war conflict.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Mr. Brownlie, do you wish to examine now.
Mr. BROWNLIE: Thank you, Madam President. Mr. Lukić, I thank you for your statement.
I have one or two questions to ask and the first is: could you please describe to the Court the
financial sources of Republika Srpska?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: If I were to be truly sincere, I would say that we
had . . . that they were from all over the place. However, the basic sources of finance were taxes,
contributions and customs duties. Also it was expor ts of different raw materials, namely, forestry
products, mining products, as well as exports of electrical energy, electrical power. Specifically
speaking, we sold electrical energy to Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia . We also floated loans. In
addition to that we received donations, both from our own citizens as well as from our friends the
world over. We also exported a number of processi ng industry products to four or five European
countries. And, as I have already said, ther e were donations from our citizens; there was
assistance which was forthcoming from different indi vidual countries, and so on. I would just like
to mention that during the war our industrial pl ants, in fact, operated at a much higher level
capacity than was the case for many years following the end of the war.
Mr. BROWNLIE: Thank you. Mr. Luki ć, would you please describe your role in the peace
negotiations at Dayton?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Talking about Dayton, let me first say that our
overall situation in Republika Srpska was exceptionally difficult.
Let me not go into a description of all the fo rces that we lost significant territories to.
Republika Srpska was swamped by refugees of whom about 80,000 from the Bosnian Kraijina.
And also from the Serbian Krajina ⎯ that is, from Croatia ⎯ over 200,000 Serbs fled. And - 18 -
although of that number, except for perhaps 40,000, all left for Serbia. It was nevertheless an
enormous burden for Republika Srpska.
However, the Contact Group requested that Republika Srpska decide who would represent it
at Dayton. The Assembly of Republika Srps ka decided that Republika Srpska was to be
represented at Dayton by Slobodan Miloševi ć. Representatives of Republika Srpska should form
part of the single Yugoslav delegation. The Speak er of the Assembly, the Minister for Foreign
Affairs, the Vice-President, two jurists and two outside experts on different fields.
The negotiations themselves in Dayton were quite lengthy and, in my opinion, the basic
reason for that is that everybody there actually a dvanced maximalist request s. There were even
some requests which were based on aspirations and unrealized in the war, which parties sought to
realize in Dayton. The negotiations were lengthy . All options were on the table. There was
intensive diplomatic and lobbying activity and, as far as I know, in the end the United States
delegate imposed an agreement that no one was actually happy with and perhaps it is good that no
one was satisfied with it.
Mr. BROWNLIE: Thank you. My last question is that I am instructed that you spent the
year 1992 in Sarajevo. Could you please explain to the Court your view of the situation in
Sarajevo in that period?
MUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : As the entire Yugoslavia, so was Bosnia and
Herzegovina and Sarajevo, in particular, a beau tiful and tranquil place until national parties were
established. After that rifts, divisions, along ethni c lines could be felt. That situation was fuelled
by the Islamic Declaration of Alija Izetbegović as well, and also by his statement when he said that
he would sacrifice peace for the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Unfortunately the first killing started of citizens in the streets, of troops in their barracks, in
the streets, in the army hall, in the hospital, etc. The killing of a five-member fami⎯ of course
you know who that is ⎯ only added fuel to the fire. I am not going to indicate the actual places
where the different killings took place, where people got killed. I am sure that you have heard very
much about that.
One more date I believe it was 16 May I happened to be on the slopes, the northern slopes of
Vrace. I looked on as police forces and other military units were attacking the settlement of Gornja - 19 -
Pofalići and on that day they expelled 6,000 Serbs, and 100 villagers went missing, and their
destiny is not known to this day.
Given the profession that I have, I know Sa rajevo and I know the whole of Bosnia and
Herzegovina well. I was the director of three in stitutions there and as the Director of the Geodesy
administration, I was also the founder of the Chair of Geodesy at the faculty there and worked as a
teacher in that department from 1976. I, of cour se, have the map of Sarajevo in front of me to
consult and look at. Sarajevo at the time was a divided city and shooting had already begun.
The PRESIDENT: Mr. Lukić, I can see your interpreter would like you to pause.
MUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Among the things I could see there was one
which was the saddest of all and which evoked an experience from my early childhood when I was
only eight years old, and could witness for myself the execution by firing squad of 5,000Serbs,
Jews and Roma, and it occurred to me, not once, that it was indeed a privilege to die by a bullet
given the circumstances which obtain in the Sarajevo of that day.
Otherwise, I was not a member of any party and, as of the 1990s, I was a university professor
charged with the setting up of organs of governme nt and it was my opinion that the organs of
government should be established at a point from the pre-war deputies. I was assigned by a
decision to be the representative of Republika Sr pska to UNPROFOR and I went there in that
capacity on 1 July 1992. I was confronted havi ng assumed that position with a series of problems
which I was not at all well prepared to address to resolve. For instance, I was to resolve the way of
enabling people to exit Sarajevo, or to save peopl e who were accused of different things, whereas
the war had not even started. One of my tasks was to enable the exit from the city of different
convoys, including those of the children’s embassy, of the International Red Cross, the Jewish
convoy, the Catholic Church convoy with nuns, and I must tell you that I did my utmost indeed to
enable these people to leave. I received between 10 and 200 people daily a nd many of them were
beaten up, many of them had been to prison, but all of them were very much afraid. So, this
particularly referred to Serbs, because other people managed to find ways to leave Sarajevo, but the
Serbs were not allowed to leave. And if they di d leave, they only did so in various clandestine
ways. - 20 -
The PRESIDENT: We will pause there while th ere is a change of interpreters...
Mr.Brownlie we have gone quite far from your question. We appear to be having a further
statement.
Mr. BROWNLIE: Could I ask the witness to conclude his statement on the question I
actually asked. Thank you, Madam President.
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : What I want to say is that at that time many
prisons were established in Sarajevo and some of them could be well described as camps. I was
aware of the existence of many such prisons and camps, but a year ago, the Association of Former
Prisoners and Inmates of such prisons and camps collected documentation that testified to the
existence of 126 such prisons and institutions , and they submitted this documentation to
Mrs. Carla del Ponte.
Sarajevo was a divided city from the very outset of the war, but it was not a blocked city as
many are trying to say. The eastern part of Sarajevo was blocked by the army of Republika Srpska
because there were some very important military point s that it had to occupy in that part of the
town. But on the other hand, the Muslim army had also a dominant position in the northern part,
the north-western part, the southern part and the s outh-western part of the other western section of
the city.
Mr. BROWNLIE: Yes, could I intervene. Madam President has indicated there are time
constraints so if you could explain to our witness that he really must conclude quite soon.
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Well, I could go on speaking very, very long and
for hours if I were to describe every single deta il that I know about the events that took place in
Sarajevo. But, instead, perhaps I can just men tion that one very brave woman wrote a book about
everything that happened there and the title of that book iDon’t cry for Sarajevo . Perhaps that
would be best read to see what happened there. But I think that I should better wrap up and close
what I have to say. Yes, so thank you very much.
Mr. BROWNLIE: Madam President, I have concluded my examination-in-chief.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr. Brownlie. I now give the floor to MsKorner for
cross-examination. - 21 -
Ms KORNER: Mr. Luki ć, I want to make it clear to you out of fairness that there are many
assertions that you have made in your written stat ement which are not accepted. But the time is
limited and therefore I can only deal with a few of them. I would ask therefore because of the time
limitations that you try and answer any questions I ask as shortly as possible. I want to start with
where you ended ⎯ Sarajevo. Do you accept that Sarajevo was shelled by forces of the Bosnian
Serb army over a period of years?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Sarajevo was a protected area. But from that
area Serb positions around Sarajevo, and especial ly one settlement which my family comes
from ⎯ and I have mentioned it and its name is Grbavica ⎯ came under incessant fire from
Sarajevo.
Well, as I was trying to explain, different in stitutions came under fire, such as the hospital,
the children’s care centre, the faculty where I ta ught. And I intervened on many occasions with
UNPROFOR that it was unacceptable that a car that was approaching would start firing only to
attract the fire from the other side. If we take in to account that about 50,000 soldiers were then in
Sarajevo, that there were also other armed gr oups, paramilitary groups, a terrorist group called
Seve or Larks that was formed on the direct orders of Alija Izetbegovic in May . . .
The PRESIDENT: May I interrupt you, Mr. Luki ć? Do you understand that counsel has to
be allocated equal time for cross-examination and that means that the questions should be answered
as succinctly as is possible, and you were asked a very specific question . . . Thank you. I give the
floor now to Ms Korner.
Ms KORNER: Mr. Lukić, that was a very simple question which admits of an answer “yes”
or “no”. And I will ask it once more and ask for a simple answer: do you accept that Sarajevo was
shelled by Bosnian Serb forces over a period of years?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : As a rule, the Bosnian Serb army shelled only
military targets in the city. Contrary to the rles of war, the authorities in Sarajevo had never
separated military from civilian targets and because of that, on sever al occasions, there were errors
in shelling.
Ms KORNER: So, you do not accept that at any stage the Bosnian Serb forces deliberately
fired on civilians. Is that right? And the answer should be yes or no, please. - 22 -
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Well, thank you for the advice, but I think that
nobody in Sarajevo, on either side, had been able to assess, or measure, or say afterwards that this
shell should have been fired and this one should not have been fired.
Ms KORNER: Alright. Well, I want to move on to a different topic. Madam President, I
have forgotten at what time you would be taking a break?
The PRESIDENT: We will continue right through your cross-examination.
Ms KORNER: I want to turn to the topic of finance. You told the Court in your prepared
statement that Republika Srpska had its own banking system, budget ⎯ and you went so fast that I
did not catch the rest ⎯ but that is what you are saying, is it?
Are you saying that your financial system was wholly independent of any support from the
Federal Republic?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Well, I have to say that I regret the fact that
Republika Srpska had no other possibility, or no ot her ways, of financing itself, unlike the Muslim
State which, on 8 June 1992, received a donation from King Fahd to the amount of 8 billion dollars
for the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And we did not have recourse to such resources and we
had no other source of financing and we had to rely on our own sources; and because of that we
found that we had huge inflation because of what we could do at the time to make ends meet.
Ms KORNER: Mr. Lukić, I did not ask you how the government in Bosnia and Herzegovina
financed itself, I asked you whether or not you were saying that you were independent of the
Federal Republic. Do I take it from your answer that the answer is no: that you were dependent on
them?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Yes.
Ms KORNER: It may be my fault: he sai d yes and you said yes. But you were dependent
on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, were you not?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: No.
Ms KORNER: Alright. Do you rememb er your budget in 1993, published in the Gazette in
1994, 25 March?
The PRESIDENT: The answer is clearly no. Are you going to provide the witness with a
sheet? - 23 -
Ms KORNER: I am going to provide the in terpreter, because I have got the English
translation, once I have put the figures to him.
The PRESIDENT: Yes, but the interpreter w ill only be able to answer what the witness
says, and the witness needs to see the document.
Ms KORNER: I will give the document; as I say, it is the English translation.
Alright. Because of the timing, can I put it to you that the budget amounted to some
732million Dinars, of which 731 was credit from th e Federal Republic of Yugoslavia? I should
have said billion, I said million. Do you agree with that?
My suggestion is very simple, which can be seen on the document: it is that the total budget
published in the Gazette on 30March1994 was slightly in excess of 732,000 billion Dinars. Of
which credit ⎯ do you agree with this, Mr.Luki ć ⎯ of which credit, from the National Bank of
Yugoslavia in Belgrade amounted to over 729,000 billion Dinars.
The PRESIDENT: Mr. Lukić, are you in a position to respond to the question?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: First of all I have to say, and note, that it was not
taken into account when quoting such figures that th ere was hyper, hyper inflation at the time. On
the other hand you adopt a budget a year earlier than . . . And this is a restructuring of the budget.
The PRESIDENT: Let us pause because we want to get the exact words you are saying.
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: I cannot say, just by looking at the figures. It is
not sufficient for me to say whether or not this was truly the case because I cannot say by just
simply looking whether this was the case of hyper-inflation or whether we just printed the
money ⎯ which we, in effect, did all the time ⎯ or whether it was the money that we have already
spent, because in 1993 we had to live on something. You cannot expect anybody to live on air or
just on water. I cannot say whether these were credits from the National Bank of Yugoslavia
because, simply, we did not need to take the credits because, as I explained, we printed money all
the time.
Ms KORNER: Is your answer “no”. From what you can recall, you did not get credit to the
sum I mentioned?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Well, it would not be the amount. We also took
credit from other countries that were granting us such credit. - 24 -
Ms KORNER: I do not want to ask the question a third time. Please, Mr. Luki ć, did you or
did you not accept credit to that amount from the National Bank of Yugoslavia?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: No, because we had no need to take the credits
from Yugoslavia, with the exception of some s poradic credit lines, because we had sufficient
products and goods to exchange with Yugoslavia.
MsKORNER: Can I have the document back, please. Mr.Luki ć, one last question. On
finance.
In February of 1994 did you give a press conference in which you announced that the
Assembly of Republika Srpska had made a decision for the Republika Srpska to join the monetary
system of Yugoslavia?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: It is partly true, but there is something else that
should be borne in mind. The National Bank of Yu goslavia made the Dinar convertible. Which in
effect meant that it would print the quantity, or the amount of Dinars that would correspond to the
deposits in the National Bank of Yugoslavia that were made in German Marks. And it is true that I
had talks with the Governor ⎯ at the time the Governor ⎯ of the National Bank of Yugoslavia.
And it meant that Republika Srpska could take from the National Bank of Yugoslavia the amount
in Dinars that would correspond to the deposit that it had already made in German Marks. And the
conditions and terms were very strict and the sum had to be exact. And the Republika Srpska then
conducted its own affairs and businesses but with th e convertible Dinars that it bought from the
National Bank of Yugoslavia.
MsKORNER: One last question. Were yo u aware of the arrangement between the three
banks ⎯ that is the Bank of the RSK, the RS ⎯ that the Republika Srpska Bank was subordinated
to the National Bank of Yugoslavia. Did you know about that? Either yes or no, please.
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: No and no.
The PRESIDENT: Do I understand from that that you didn’t know, and you don’t agree? Is
that what we are . . . I’m simply trying to understand what your “no and no” were directed to.
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Well, we were masters of our own destiny to the
degree or measure that we had the money actuall y to cover our expenses, because we used in - 25 -
day-to-day operations the convertible mark, and th e situation, especially after the sanctions that I
mentioned, was very strict in that regard.
Ms KORNER: Yes, alright. Can we move to an allied topic? Is it your assertion that the
army of the Republika Srpska, the VRS, required no aid in either material or money from the
Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: What I said is that, owing to circumstances and
the decisions made by Presidents Tudjman and Izetbegović, in the hands of the soldiers of the JNA
who were of Bosnia and Serb origin, what remain ed there were large quantities of materiel and
arms.
Ms KORNER: I’m sorry, leaving aside what was left behind by the JNA, do you accept that
huge quantities of materiel were provided to the VRS by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
MUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : For the most part, I underline “for the most
part”, without paying for it, the army of Republik a Srpska did not receive assistance in equipment
or arms.
Ms KORNER: I didn’t ask you whether it was paid for. I asked whether or not it had been
supplied by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: A negligible quantity, given our successes in the
war. And if you allow me to add just this: at th e start of the war we had more pieces of arms than
population. And you are certainly aware of the fact that we sold some quantities of arms to
Herceg-Bosna, which was a Croat entity; and also to the Autonomous Republic of Western
Bosnia, and you wouldn’t expect us to sell the ar ms and then go and procure them from somebody
else, would you?
Ms KORNER: Were you present at the fiftieth Assembly session in April of 1995 at Sanski
Most?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : No, I was not present there, because I was no
longer a member of the Government, and so it happened after my term of office expired.
Ms KORNER: You’ve spoken about the 12 May Assembly in Banja Luka, when it was
decided to create the army of the Serbian Republic. Were you present at that Assembly? - 26 -
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : No, because I joined the Government only in
January 1993.
Ms KORNER: Yes I understand that, but that w as a major, major Assembly, wasn’t it? An
important one. Wasn’t it? It was an important Assembly?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Yes, it was important. It was important in the
sense that at best at that session a third army wa s formed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the army of
Republika Srpska, and that army was in effecconstituted a month later. And the idea and the
purpose was that this army should defend the peopl e of Republika Srpska, because at that time that
was the condition for the biological survival of the Serb people.
Ms KORNER: Yes, quite. Karadžic set out, di dn’t he, the six strategic goals of the Serbian
people at that Assembly? The answer to that is “yes” or “no”, please.
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: First of all, I was not present at that session so I
cannot say, because I do not know who said what, who proposed what and who commented what.
Ms KORNER: Please, Mr. Lukić, are you telling us you did not know about the six strategic
goals?
MUr.KI Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Madam President, honourable judges and
Members of the Court, only two months ago, ormaybe three months ago, I read the text of these
strategic goals. I really do not know how it came about that these goals should be formulated, but
what I knew is that I discussed at opoint these issues with General Mladi ć. Because he was
asking me and asking the Government, in effect, give them the idea, the goals, for the army to
follow, meaning how far they should go ⎯ the army. Of course, I immediately reported it to
Mr. Karadžić but he simply, actually, did not say anything about it. He said nothing and he did not
actually inform me that something of that sort ex isted, so I remained unaware of these goals until
two months ago.
Ms KORNER: So, you never saw them when they were published in the Official Gazette?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Only two months ago.
Ms KORNER: Right. I want to move then to something else. When you took office in
1993, did you give an interview to the newspaper called Glas Srpski? This time I do have it.
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Well, I would have to see. - 27 -
Ms KORNER: I just want to ask you about one sentence. Did you say that one of the
priorities of your Government was to protect property and goods . . .
The PRESIDENT: I am going to interrupt you there, Ms Korner. I have the impression that
the financial document had not only not been provided to the witness, but to the Agent for Serbia
and Montenegro and I do not believe it has been pr ovided to the Bench either. I think we are now
in the same situation again. Mr. Obradović, do you wish to speak to that?
OMBr. ADOVI Ć: Thank you, Madam President. That was just my objection. We would
like to see it, in order to be prepared evelly for re-examination and to see and estimate the
admissibility of those documents. Just that.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. I think you have some problem continuing your
cross-examination on this line.
Ms KORNER: Madam President, Mr. Luki ć came here and came out with a lengthy ⎯
lengthy ⎯ statement full of assertions, none of which w as provided to us at all and which I have
great difficulty in dealing with. All I could deal w ith was a guess at some of the things that he was
going to deal with. The documents in themselves ar e not suggested that they should go in. I have
got them here purely so that if the witness asks ⎯ as did Mr. Riedlmayer when
Ms Fauveau-Ivanović was cross-examining ⎯ “well, can I see the document?”, that we had it there
so there was no suggestion there was a trick. I just want him to confirm one line. It is not that we
are trying to put the document in. This is to assist the witness, in fairness, because we think that is
the proper way to do it.
The PRESIDENT: I will allow this one lin e and then I would like to move away from
documents that have not been provided.
Ms KORNER: Can you confirm, Mr. Luki ć, it is very simple, that you told Glas Srpski in
January 1993 that it was a priority to protect property and goods?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: This is what I have always been saying.
Ms KORNER: Could we just very quickly, was it a priority of your Government to protect
property and goods? Yes or no, could you say that?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: People first and then everything else. - 28 -
Ms KORNER: Did you get a number of lette rs from the Bishop of Banja Luka complaining
about the destruction of Catholic churches?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: The answer is no, because I met the Bishop on
several occasions. He came to me so we discuss ed matters in a direct contact and he personally
had no need to address me in a written form.
Ms KORNER: Alright, when he came to see yo u, did he complain about the destruction of
Catholic churches? Yes or no?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : Well, there is not a single person that did not
complain that something of their property had been destroyed, so he probably complained too. But
I cannot remember what particularly he complained about and to which locations he referred.
Ms KORNER: Can I give you one example? Did he complain to you about the razing to the
ground of a Catholic church in Bosanska Gradisvka in February 1993?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : We heard it before and there was no need for
him to complain about it and, in that context, I have to repeat again that, regrettably and
unfortunately, the demolition of religious objects Bosnia and Herzegovina or the tradition to
demolish such objects goes back to centuries ago.There was not a single war in these areas that
did not at its outset also begin as a civil and religi ous war. In the Second World War, for example,
Serbian Orthodox churches and mosques were destroyed ⎯ heavily ⎯ and in the war that we are
talking about other churches were also demolished and not only religious objects and institutions
but also cultural and historical objects and institutions. Well, after the demolition of the tomb that
marked a location where an entire village was demolished during the Second World War at
Prebilovci... And particularly after the demolition of the Serbian Orthodox monastery of
Zitomislići in the Neretva River valley... And pa rticularly after the demolition of almost all
religious objects in Mostar . . . The events simp ly were going in the direction that could no longer
be controlled ⎯ by me anyway.
And just one more sentence. A church in which I was baptized had been demolished in
World War II. And in this war it was demolished and burnt down and we are now actually trying
to rebuild that church.
The PRESIDENT: Ms Korner, you are coming towards the end of your allocated period. - 29 -
Ms KORNER: With the greatest of respect, Madam President, he didn’t finish until
20 past . . .
The PRESIDENT: Please continue.
Ms KORNER: Alright, I’ll make my point afterwards. Please, Mr. Luki ć, just answer the
question that I ask, because I am being stopped from questioning you because of time limits. Did
you take any steps to protect the mosques in Banja Luka which were blown up during 1993?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Well, imagine a Prime Minister having to see to
the protection of every individual structure, including places of worship. But I do have to say in
this context that I have a special, different kind of attachment to Banja Luka and I am deeply sorry
that all that happened but, having said this, let add that we had proper parties of government,
we had a Ministry of Religion, we had police and, of course, they were instructed to take the proper
measures to protect all buildings, including places of worship. And they were concerned with that
in particular. So, it was war, developments evolved at an intensive pace, overtaking one another as
it were, so perhaps we did not see to the protection of every individual structure on time because of
such circumstances, but they were certainly instructed in principle to do so.
Ms KORNER: I have one last topic and one last question ⎯ or two ⎯ on it. On
7 April 1993, did your Government pass a deci sion on establishing a commission for international
law?
MUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : I do not know. I would have to consult the
agenda of that particular session to give you an answer. Possibly it is true. If the gentleman claims
that it is, he has probably read it somewhere and I ha ve no reason not to believe him that that is so.
But seeing that we had about 38items on the agen da per session, it is only understandable that I
really cannot remember all of them.
Ms KORNER: Can I jog your memory, perhaps. Was one of its aims participation in the
work of competent bodies on preparing a reply to the lawsuit on the alleged genocide which was
committed by the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: That is not true; that is absolutely untrue. I had
not heard about this claim, this application, during the entire period of the war, nor did I hear about - 30 -
it in Dayton. Had we known about that application, I guarantee you that we would have conducted
ourselves differently in Dayton.
Ms KORNER: So, you never, ever, establishe d such a commission with one of the reasons
for it being what I have just read to you.
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Well, I am asking you this question: how would
I have set up a commission for some sort of an activity that I am unaware of?
Ms KORNER: Because any lawsuit against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had nothing
whatsoever to do with Republika Srpska, did it?
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: I do not know what lawsuit you are referring to.
Ms KORNER: Yes, thank you.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Mr. Brownlie, do you wish to re-examine?
Mr. BROWNLIE: Mr. Luki ć has presented his evidence at length. There is no
re-examination. Thank you.
The PRESIDENT: The Court will now retire, but the Parties and the witness should remain
in the vicinity of the Great Hall of Justice. If the Court wishes to pose ques tions to the witness, it
will return to the courtroom within the next 15minutes. If the Court does not wish to put any
questions to the witness, it will not return to the courtroom and the Registry will inform the Parties
and the public accordingly. The Court now rises.
The Court adjourned from 12.15 to 12.35 p.m.
The PRESIDENT: Please be seated. We would invite the witness and the interpreter to be
brought into Court.
Judges Ranjeva, Simma, Tomka and Bennouna will have questions for the witness. I first
call Judge Ranjeva.
Le juge RANJEVA : Merci bien, Madame le président.
The PRESIDENT: Un instant. Please proceed, Judge Ranjeva.
Le juge RANJEVA : Merci, Madame le président. Monsieur le professeur Luki ć, vous est-il
possible d’exposer a la Cour très brièvement les attributions que le chef du Gouvernement de la - 31 -
Republika Srpska exerce dans le domaine des re lations internationales ? Je vous remercie,
Madame le président.
LMU.KI Ć [interprétation du serbe] : Les relations internationales relevaient de la
compétence surtout du président de la République et de ses collaborateurs plus proches.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. I now call Judge Simma.
Judge SIMMA: Thank you, Madam President. I have a very specific question to
Professor Lukić. Who, in your view, was responsible for the shelling with incendiary ammunition
of both the National Library and the Oriental Institute in Sarajevo?
MUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian] : I am not at all aware of the fact that such
institutions were specifically targeted. I know tat the city library was not set on fire by any
ammunition or shells of the army of Republika Srps ka. Any so-called instances of shelling did not
actually come from the side of Republika Srpska, but were produced inside Sarajevo in order to
sensitize the international public. But this is a ch broader topic and I am quite sure that you
have heard lots about it. I am aware that there ex isted an order of the most responsible leaders of
Republika Srpska to the effect that cultural monuments and historical monuments should be
preserved. However, probably in the exchange of fire that transpired a number of such monuments
were also affected.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. I now call Judge Tomka.
Judge TOMKA: Thank you, Madam President. ProfessorLuki ć, in your introductory
statement you, inter alia, said that you were appointed one of the two experts of the delegation of
Republika Srpska in the negotiations in Dayton in 1995. And you also discussed the composition
of the delegation which consisted of the Speaker of the Parliament, of the Deputy Prime Minister,
the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Republika Srps ka, two lawyers, and two experts, you being one
of them. The question is: could you please explain to us what was the reason ⎯ or what were the
considerations ⎯ that led the National Assembly, Skupština, of Republika Srpska to appoint the
then President of the Republic of Serbia, Mr. Miloševi ć, to represent Republika Srpska at the
Dayton negotiations? Thank you very much.
LMUr. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: I should first of all like to make a correction: it
was not the Vice-Premier, but it was the Vice-President of the Republic, Mr. Koljevi ć. At the - 32 -
session at which the National Assembly was decidi ng the composition of the delegation to go to
Dayton, I was a professor in Banja Luka and I mysel f did not attend that session. If I am informed
well, the choice was between Mr.Miloševi ć, Mr.Tudjman and Mr.Izetbegovi ć and we opted for
Mr. Milošević as our representative because he enjoyed the reputation of a peacemaker, of a person
that had contributed to the hammering out of various peace agreements in the area.
The PRESIDENT: I now call finally upon Judge Bennouna.
Le juge BENNOUNA: Merci, Madame le prés ident. J’ai la question suivante pour le
professeur Lukić. Monsieur Luki ć, étiez-vous au courant vous-m ême ou votre gouvernement des
décisions du Conseil de sécurité des NationsUni es, au cours de l’année 1993 en particulier,
exigeant de la République fédérale de Y ougoslavie (Serbie-et-Monténégro) de cesser
immédiatement la fourniture d’armes, d’équipements et de services de caractère militaire aux
unités militaires et/ou paramilitaires serbes de Bo snie, les unités de la République serbe de
Bosnie-Herzégovine? Et si votre réponse est positive, donc si vous répondez oui ⎯ je vous
demanderais d’être aussi clair que possible ⎯, je vous demanderais aussi de nous dire, de dire à la
Cour, quelles dispositions vous auriez prises, vous-même ou votre gouvernement, en tant que
destinataire de cette assistance prohibée.
LUMK. I Ć [interprétation du serbe] : D’abord, je ne pourrais pas accepter que nous avons
été destinataire de cette aide dans ce sens aussi général. Il est notoire que la Republika Srpska
fabriquait elle-même certains semi-produits de na ture militaire. Une bonne partie de ces semi-
produits étaient échangés avec l’industrie de la Ré publique fédérale de Yougoslavie, c’est-à-dire
nous leur laissions en contrepartie une partie de ces semi-produits c ontre le produit fini qu’ils nous
fournissaient. Il est notoire également que nous assurions le service des moteurs pour les avions de
combat. Il est également notoire qu’une partie de ces moteurs réparés étaient acheminés vers la
Grande-Bretagne, la Serbie et encore certains autr es pays. Il est également notoire que différents
produits comme les produits forestiers par exempl e étaient échangés contre d’autres différents
produits de provenance de Yougos lavie. Vous avez pu entendre dans mon exposé d’introduction
qu’il existait différents groupes qui armaient l es armées des trois peuples en Bosnie. L’armée
musulmane, par le truchement de la Croatie, armait les enclaves de l’est. Ce qui était également
interdit aux termes de la décision du Conseil de sécurité. Mais cette décision du Conseil de - 33 -
sécurité, nous l’avons éprouvée le plus après le rejet du plan Vance-Owen. Vous aurez du mal à
me croire, probablement, mais moi-même, j’ai été renvoyé de la frontière en 1995, moi, en tant que
professeur. Tout simplement parce que j’avais ét é premier ministre. Et un détail personnel, peut-
être déplaisant, en accompagnant mon fils blessé au champ de bataille, j’ai été arrêté à la frontière
pendant deux heures, et ainsi de suite. Et pire encore, si j’en parle déjà, un des blessés a été sorti
du véhicule et retenu à la frontière.
The PRESIDENT: Thank you. That brings to an end the hearing of the witness and I thank
Mr. Lukić for appearing before us. Mr. Luki ć may now be escorted out of the Great Hall of
Justice.
LMUK. I Ć [interpretation from Serbian]: Thank you, Your Honours.
The PRESIDENT: The Court now rises and will resume the hearing of evidence this
afternoon at 3 o’clock.
The Court rose at 12.55 p.m.
___________
Public sitting held on Thursday 23 March 2006, at 10 a.m., at the Peace Palace, President Higgins presiding